Outgoing Treasury boss Caralee McLeish has recommended New Zealand adopt a capital gains tax - and has also said we need to look at changing our superannuation settings as our population ages.
So could it return to the political agenda?
And Darleen Tana has taken her battle to remain an MP to the courts - how does this legal challenge work?
Newstalk ZB political editor Jason Walls joined Nick Mills with the latest.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said B direct from News Talks. Edb's
team at Parliament's the bee Hive buzz.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hip joining us for the bee Hype Buzz is news Talks.
Here be political editor Jason Wall's morning.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Jason, Good morning there. How are you doing doing great things?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
How was Australia? Do you go across the Pacific Island? Sorry?
Do you go across? Did you make that trip? I was?
Speaker 3 (00:34):
I was in Australia, but I wasn't at the Pacific
Island Forum, I'm afraid, but I was watching from afar.
It looked like it was a sunny, lovely time. I
love the the Island shirts. They're actually specific. When we
go over on those trips to the island with the PM,
they actually specifically tell us that we have to get
those sort of shirts because they're like there their formal wear.
So I've got a couple at home that are just
(00:55):
sitting there wedding for the next time that I have
to head over to the Islands on a work trip
or next.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Fancy dress party we do as a Christmas party or something.
Jesus Prime Minister doesn't look good on that stuff, does it?
He looks good in the shoe and tie, and that's
it doesn't look good in no shirts. I didn't think.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
I think it's because we're so used to seeing him
in the shirt and tower. I would say that the
Prime Minister is among the snappiest dresses in Parliament. His
ties a second to none, nick of anyone here. So
maybe it's a little bit jarring because of that.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Okay, yeah, I'll give you that. I'll give you that.
I'm saying he just hasn't got the body to look
and much best. He looks best in a suit. But anyway,
we've been talking about this hour about the outgoing Treasury
Secretary Kaylee mc caroline mccles saying we needed she said
we needed a capital gains tax and changes to superannuation.
(01:42):
What did you actually make of us?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yeah, I'm not particularly surprised. I mean, it's the Treasury
has called for a capital gains tax before, and no
doubt they'll do it again. The capital gains tax is
about the most poisonous political pill that you could take
for any political party, and you just need to ask
just Sinda Ardern about that. In fact, it was the
Captain's call that she made just before she became Prime
minister about not or about basically making that for touch,
(02:07):
and then again with the well or the tax committee
that she was formed that she formed that suggested a
capital gains tax, and then again just into our dun
and Whinston Peter's when they were in power came out
and said absolutely not happening. In fact, just sind Ar
Durn that it wouldn't happen as long as she was
Prime minister. So you know it's not going to happen.
(02:28):
I mean, and Carolyne McLeish can promise until the cow,
or can talk about it till the cows go home,
as is her prerogative, but it's just not happening. And
of course she's in the job only for a few
more weeks than she's heading over to Australia to become
their new order in general, so she'll be happy with
that gig. I mean, Australia is obviously a bigger country
than ours and it's a pretty good position for her,
(02:48):
and I think no doubt that it won't be the
last big sort of money position that she has for
a while. I think. So she has spoke with the
Herald's Genetidcheranius. It's a good article. I'd definitely recommend you
have a look. And she talks about a few things.
For example, she says, quote, the Crown's fiscal position is significant,
significantly weaker following the response to the pandemic and the
(03:10):
cyclone and other policy decisions, and she says levels of
debt still remain within prudent levels. However, we have significant
concerns about the underlying fiscal sustainability of the operating position,
ongoing revenues not covering ongoing expenses. So to translate that
into English, she's worried that we're spending too much money
and we don't have enough money to cover it. Obviously,
(03:31):
superannuation is something that she's worried about when we have
an aging population over here, so it's something that all
governments need to shift their attention onto. She says, with
an aging population, we're seeing an increase increasing share of
the government's transfer going to the wealthy because of course
we have an increasing population of the over sixty fives
and some of those in higher income categories. So you know,
(03:53):
she's talked about capital gains, she's talked about the aging population.
She speaks like an economist. I mean some of these quotes. Yeah,
you know, have you read three or four times before
you actually understand what's going on. But it's nothing surprising
coming from that. Nikola Willis. She's not going to be
dissuaded against her dislike of the capital gains tax because
of this. I mean, if the IMF and the OECD
(04:15):
in both said that New Zealand has an inequitable tax
system and we need a capital gains tax and she's
done nothing, I don't think she's going to do something.
For the outgoing Secretary of the Treasury, I'm afraid.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, I see. I feel that labor if they want
to get some traction, that's exactly what they should do.
They should say next election, hey, we're bringing some form
of capital gains tax. And I think you might be surprised.
I think I don't know will they would they gain
the left vote again by doing that?
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Oh I We've been beating this capital gains horse tax
horse for some time now. I mean it was you know,
David Kunliff tried it. Then we had Andrew Little who
was keen on it as well. Sinda durn was keen
before she came prime minister, and then with the prime
minister with the most political capital that we've had in
(05:01):
a long time, she can't get it across the line.
Nobody will be able to get it across the line.
It's just simply not a winner. And I just don't
think as I say, it's a poison chalice. I mean,
obviously all the economists say that we need one because
it's something that helps make the tax system a little
bit more level, but it's just so hard to do
now that it's just so much political water has flown
(05:21):
under that bridge.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Okay, we're talking about it yet again, the story that
just won't go Why what's next for Darling? Darling? Tana
bring us up to speed with what you know?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Yeah, well, so it was supposed to be the Greens
meeting this weekend to determine whether or not she should
be Walker jumped out of the Parliament. She's already been
kicked out of the party, but she pulled sort of
an eleventh hour doozy last week where she she wanted
to put an injunction on the party actually meeting, which
a lot of legal experts looked at that and thought,
hang on a second, you can't stop a party meeting
(05:52):
with a legal injunction, but she was a bit more
crafty than that. She's really gone after the fact that
the Green Party hasn't followed the correct process in kicking
her out of the party, and so the injunction was
essentially looking at that and saying, well, you can't kick
me out of parliament if the process is that you
went through to kick me out of your party. When
it followed, and because of that she got what she wanted.
She stopped the party from having their special general meeting
(06:17):
on Sunday. So for now absolutely nothing's happening with Darley
and they've got till September twelfth to consider the arguments,
and then after that the Greens can meet again. If
the courts decide that she was kicked out of the
Green Party in a way that wasn't in breach of
any of the standing orders of their by laws or
whatever sort of legal definition she wants to use, they
(06:38):
can meet again to decide if she is going to
be kicked out of Parliament. However, if the courts decide
that due process wasn't followed and the Greens were in
the wrong in the way that they kicked Darlene out.
We're in somewhat of uncharted territory because she could potentially
just kind of sit here being a member of Parliament
fighting a legal battle with her former party until the
(07:01):
next election, and she'll run again. I imagine she had
probably lose because look at the tr record of independent
MPs in this parliament who have fractured with their previous party,
it had not been good. But she could potentially be
here for quite some time to come.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I reckon, she's a little bit different from those other ones.
There's something that I don't know's she's She's got something
I don't know what it is, but she won't. She
just won't. She's not hated. That's what I'm trying to say. Anyway.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Well, it's what she's got in common with the other
ones is they're all tenacious and they all have an
incredible level of self belief. So I will give that
to her.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Okay, Prime ministers off overseas this weekend. Where is the
off doing?
Speaker 3 (07:39):
How are you going the start with the latter?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
First? I am not going.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
He's off to Malaysia and the Republic of Korea, So
he'll be there this week just days after returning from
the Pacific Island Forum. So he was here only for
a couple of days really, or he was here on Saturday,
he was up in a tender or paying his respects
to kingy Thu Hepia's family. And then he's off the
Republic of Career and Malaysia this week. It's first official
(08:07):
visit to Malaysia. He says, it demonstrates New Zealand's commitment
to building on our relationship with one of our longest
standing friends in Southeast Asia and expanding their cooperation into
new areas. And then he spent a couple of days there.
Then he's after Korea. He says that Korea is a
like minded democracy that sees challenges facing the indoor Pacific
(08:27):
region in similar ways to New Zealand. So he's lining
up various different meetings this week. He's taken a business delegation.
He got into a bit of hot water when he
took a business delegation to Japan after calling them sealss
the once I went with our Sea liisters. So I
think he's learned his lesson there. But you know, there
might be a bit of a spanner in the works
this week because there is a king equap is Hungey,
(08:49):
which is on Wednesday.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I was going to ask you the same question, but
I've got to go, Jason. Will he go to the funeral?
Will he just yes?
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Or no?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Please? Sorry?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
No, No, he's going to be overseas so he's going
to miss this one.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
All right, Thank you, Jay. Sorry to cut you off, Buddy,
just ran out of time. Alway's good to talk.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills and live
to news talks, It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said B direct from News Talks. Edb's
team at Parliament's the bee Hive buzz.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hip joining us for the bee Hype Buzz is news Talks.
Here be political editor Jason Wall's morning.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Jason, Good morning there. How are you doing doing great things?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
How was Australia? Do you go across the Pacific Island? Sorry?
Do you go across? Did you make that trip? I was?
Speaker 3 (00:34):
I was in Australia, but I wasn't at the Pacific
Island Forum, I'm afraid, but I was watching from afar.
It looked like it was a sunny, lovely time. I
love the the Island shirts. They're actually specific. When we
go over on those trips to the island with the PM,
they actually specifically tell us that we have to get
those sort of shirts because they're like there their formal wear.
So I've got a couple at home that are just
(00:55):
sitting there wedding for the next time that I have
to head over to the Islands on a work trip
or next.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Fancy dress party we do as a Christmas party or something.
Jesus Prime Minister doesn't look good on that stuff, does it?
He looks good in the shoe and tie, and that's
it doesn't look good in no shirts. I didn't think.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
I think it's because we're so used to seeing him
in the shirt and tower. I would say that the
Prime Minister is among the snappiest dresses in Parliament. His
ties a second to none, nick of anyone here. So
maybe it's a little bit jarring because of that.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Okay, yeah, I'll give you that. I'll give you that.
I'm saying he just hasn't got the body to look
and much best. He looks best in a suit. But anyway,
we've been talking about this hour about the outgoing Treasury
Secretary Kaylee mc caroline mccles saying we needed she said
we needed a capital gains tax and changes to superannuation.
(01:42):
What did you actually make of us?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yeah, I'm not particularly surprised. I mean, it's the Treasury
has called for a capital gains tax before, and no
doubt they'll do it again. The capital gains tax is
about the most poisonous political pill that you could take
for any political party, and you just need to ask
just Sinda Ardern about that. In fact, it was the
Captain's call that she made just before she became Prime
minister about not or about basically making that for touch,
(02:07):
and then again with the well or the tax committee
that she was formed that she formed that suggested a
capital gains tax, and then again just into our dun
and Whinston Peter's when they were in power came out
and said absolutely not happening. In fact, just sind Ar
Durn that it wouldn't happen as long as she was
Prime minister. So you know it's not going to happen.
(02:28):
I mean, and Carolyne McLeish can promise until the cow,
or can talk about it till the cows go home,
as is her prerogative, but it's just not happening. And
of course she's in the job only for a few
more weeks than she's heading over to Australia to become
their new order in general, so she'll be happy with
that gig. I mean, Australia is obviously a bigger country
than ours and it's a pretty good position for her,
(02:48):
and I think no doubt that it won't be the
last big sort of money position that she has for
a while. I think. So she has spoke with the
Herald's Genetidcheranius. It's a good article. I'd definitely recommend you
have a look. And she talks about a few things.
For example, she says, quote, the Crown's fiscal position is significant,
significantly weaker following the response to the pandemic and the
(03:10):
cyclone and other policy decisions, and she says levels of
debt still remain within prudent levels. However, we have significant
concerns about the underlying fiscal sustainability of the operating position,
ongoing revenues not covering ongoing expenses. So to translate that
into English, she's worried that we're spending too much money
and we don't have enough money to cover it. Obviously,
(03:31):
superannuation is something that she's worried about when we have
an aging population over here, so it's something that all
governments need to shift their attention onto. She says, with
an aging population, we're seeing an increase increasing share of
the government's transfer going to the wealthy because of course
we have an increasing population of the over sixty fives
and some of those in higher income categories. So you know,
(03:53):
she's talked about capital gains, she's talked about the aging population.
She speaks like an economist. I mean some of these quotes. Yeah,
you know, have you read three or four times before
you actually understand what's going on. But it's nothing surprising
coming from that. Nikola Willis. She's not going to be
dissuaded against her dislike of the capital gains tax because
of this. I mean, if the IMF and the OECD
(04:15):
in both said that New Zealand has an inequitable tax
system and we need a capital gains tax and she's
done nothing, I don't think she's going to do something.
For the outgoing Secretary of the Treasury, I'm afraid.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, I see. I feel that labor if they want
to get some traction, that's exactly what they should do.
They should say next election, hey, we're bringing some form
of capital gains tax. And I think you might be surprised.
I think I don't know will they would they gain
the left vote again by doing that?
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Oh I We've been beating this capital gains horse tax
horse for some time now. I mean it was you know,
David Kunliff tried it. Then we had Andrew Little who
was keen on it as well. Sinda durn was keen
before she came prime minister, and then with the prime
minister with the most political capital that we've had in
(05:01):
a long time, she can't get it across the line.
Nobody will be able to get it across the line.
It's just simply not a winner. And I just don't
think as I say, it's a poison chalice. I mean,
obviously all the economists say that we need one because
it's something that helps make the tax system a little
bit more level, but it's just so hard to do
now that it's just so much political water has flown
(05:21):
under that bridge.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Okay, we're talking about it yet again, the story that
just won't go Why what's next for Darling? Darling? Tana
bring us up to speed with what you know?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Yeah, well, so it was supposed to be the Greens
meeting this weekend to determine whether or not she should
be Walker jumped out of the Parliament. She's already been
kicked out of the party, but she pulled sort of
an eleventh hour doozy last week where she she wanted
to put an injunction on the party actually meeting, which
a lot of legal experts looked at that and thought,
hang on a second, you can't stop a party meeting
(05:52):
with a legal injunction, but she was a bit more
crafty than that. She's really gone after the fact that
the Green Party hasn't followed the correct process in kicking
her out of the party, and so the injunction was
essentially looking at that and saying, well, you can't kick
me out of parliament if the process is that you
went through to kick me out of your party. When
it followed, and because of that she got what she wanted.
She stopped the party from having their special general meeting
(06:17):
on Sunday. So for now absolutely nothing's happening with Darley
and they've got till September twelfth to consider the arguments,
and then after that the Greens can meet again. If
the courts decide that she was kicked out of the
Green Party in a way that wasn't in breach of
any of the standing orders of their by laws or
whatever sort of legal definition she wants to use, they
(06:38):
can meet again to decide if she is going to
be kicked out of Parliament. However, if the courts decide
that due process wasn't followed and the Greens were in
the wrong in the way that they kicked Darlene out.
We're in somewhat of uncharted territory because she could potentially
just kind of sit here being a member of Parliament
fighting a legal battle with her former party until the
(07:01):
next election, and she'll run again. I imagine she had
probably lose because look at the tr record of independent
MPs in this parliament who have fractured with their previous party,
it had not been good. But she could potentially be
here for quite some time to come.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I reckon, she's a little bit different from those other ones.
There's something that I don't know's she's She's got something
I don't know what it is, but she won't. She
just won't. She's not hated. That's what I'm trying to say. Anyway.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Well, it's what she's got in common with the other
ones is they're all tenacious and they all have an
incredible level of self belief. So I will give that
to her.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Okay, Prime ministers off overseas this weekend. Where is the
off doing?
Speaker 3 (07:39):
How are you going the start with the latter?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
First? I am not going.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
He's off to Malaysia and the Republic of Korea, So
he'll be there this week just days after returning from
the Pacific Island Forum. So he was here only for
a couple of days really, or he was here on Saturday,
he was up in a tender or paying his respects
to kingy Thu Hepia's family. And then he's off the
Republic of Career and Malaysia this week. It's first official
(08:07):
visit to Malaysia. He says, it demonstrates New Zealand's commitment
to building on our relationship with one of our longest
standing friends in Southeast Asia and expanding their cooperation into
new areas. And then he spent a couple of days there.
Then he's after Korea. He says that Korea is a
like minded democracy that sees challenges facing the indoor Pacific
(08:27):
region in similar ways to New Zealand. So he's lining
up various different meetings this week. He's taken a business delegation.
He got into a bit of hot water when he
took a business delegation to Japan after calling them sealss
the once I went with our Sea liisters. So I
think he's learned his lesson there. But you know, there
might be a bit of a spanner in the works
this week because there is a king equap is Hungey,
(08:49):
which is on Wednesday.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I was going to ask you the same question, but
I've got to go, Jason. Will he go to the funeral?
Will he just yes?
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Or no?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Please? Sorry?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
No, No, he's going to be overseas so he's going
to miss this one.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
All right, Thank you, Jay. Sorry to cut you off, Buddy,
just ran out of time. Alway's good to talk.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills and live
to news talks, It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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