October 15, 2024 • 19 mins
Labour leader Chris Hipkins says the threshold for government intervention in Wellington City Council hasn't been met.
Talking to Nick Mills, he said the council still has an opportunity to pass its long term plan and show government it can function properly.
"Councillors arguing amongst each other is local democracy."
"The level of dysfunction has got to be a bit higher than people just disagreeing with each other."
Hipkins also discussed the state of the health system, the latest inflation figures and Labour's position on the fast track legislation.
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Said b joining us now is labor leader and Ruematucker
MP Chris Hipkins has promised and he's turned up. How
you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Yeah, I'm very good, thank you. It's but chilly out
there on Wellington today, though it doesn't feel much like spring,
does it.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Well, it hasn't for the last couple of days. But
I got all my washing dried on the weekend, so
I was pretty damn happy.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Oh yeah, not bad. Actually there's some good gardening over
the weekend. So you can't complain, No, you can't. We're
not going to complain. It feels a lot better. We've
had a very good winter too, haven't we. Yeah, it's
actually been not too bad at all. Really, Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
CPI figures have just come through. We're now within the
Reserves bank one to three percent target range for the
first time in more than three years. Stats New Zealand
figures show the inflation rate was at two point two percent.
When when did you first hear this? What did you think?
What's going to change? What is it going to change?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I just heard it on the way here. Obviously it's
good news for the overall New Zealand economy, good news
for New Zealanders, but it also does show that the
government have overcooked things. You know, the Reserve Bank was
on track to get inflation and back down under that
three percent target. They were on track to do that
before the election. You know, they said second half of
this year, by the end of this year, we'd be
back on track, back within the target band. That's what
(01:18):
they've managed to achieve. But the government have taken it
from what could have been a relatively soft landing for
inflation and they've crashed it. So it's not a sottistic.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Crushing to do with the changes that the coalition governments done.
This is all on stuff that you'd already done.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
It's not actually to do with stuff governments done us
to do with the Reserve Bank. I mean, the Reserve
Bank hyked up interest rates. That does take a while
to flow through, but ultimately that has board inflation back down.
Now that is a good thing overall, and that will
mean interest rates start to come down again, which will
help to ease the pain. But in the meantime, the
government has inflicted a whole lot of extra pain.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
What do you think that the interest rates will come
down for me and you.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
I mean we'll start to see that, you know. I
suspect we'll see the bank starting to lower interest rates.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
You know, but what do you think that we could
get them to do? You reckon, we can get them
with three and four again.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
I don't think we're ever going to be in that
very low You know, there are some people who came
off fixed interest rates that were sort of in that
two to three percent range. I don't know that we'll
ever get back down to that lower area. I think
we'll end up sort of getting more back towards If
you look at it, you've got to think about interest
rates over a longer term. You know, if you've got
a mortgage over thirty years, there'll be periods where you're
paying a slightly higher rate in periods where you're paying
(02:23):
a lower rate. If you can get the average to
something more like five or six percent over that, you know,
over the thirty years of your mortgage, you're going to
be feeling better than if the average is more like
six or seven percent.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Okay, so you think we could get five or six percent,
or you still think it's going to be it'll take a.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Wee while I mean, I think there'll be ups and
downs in it. But you know, the good news is
the interest rates are starting to trend down again.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Okay, let's start with the biggest story in the campital
Wellington City Council. The Government has changed its language and
it's saying now that it's going to seek advice on intervening,
whether it's an observer, a commissioner, or even calling an
early election. Now you've publicly said you don't think it's
at that point, and I want to know why.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I don't think it's a point because the councils still
deserve the opportunity to come up with their long term
plan and show that they can balance their books and
that they've got a viable plan to lead Wellington Ford.
Councils arguing amongst each other, I mean, that is local dibidity.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
And it's more than that, isn't it. I mean, have
you watched any of the council meetings? Have you seen
any of it? It's more than that.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Oh but if you're going to apply that threshold of councils,
you know, fighting with each other, then you'll be sacking
half the meres across the country. Well tell me the
difference there's evil of dysfunction's got to be a bit
higher than people just you know, just disagree.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
We've got no long term plan. Well, I mean everyone
said that that was a disaster if we didn't come
up with a long term.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
They're going to have to amend that. They do have
a long term plan. They're now going to have to
amend it because they're not going ahead with the airports
shares sales. But they're going to have to meet it
anyway because the government scrapping the three you know, the
Affordable Water Reform, the three Waters, that meant they have
to go back and redo their long term plan anyway.
So they were going to have to change anyway.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Okay, now you were in cabinet when Labor appointed commissioners
in Tower on it. Why did you do that When
you say, now, you wouldn't do it in Wellington.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Because that council could not discharge its statutory obligations. It
couldn't actually do what the job that it legally was
required to do. So to Warlington City Council as well.
I mean, we're legally to producing the long term plan.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
And we haven't done that either.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Well, but you haven't mean that process hasn't finished yet.
If they don't produce a long term plan, then that
may well provide the grounds for statutory intervention.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
But according to the facts that I got Towerong, I
hadn't even started their ten year long term plan.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I'd have to go back and look at the exact criteria.
I mean the Toweringer Council was you know, definitely cross
you reckon? It was worse freshold do you reckon? It
was worse? Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
This is where I'm really struggling with it. Because you
live in Wellington, you're part of us. But if you
can see what we're going through.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
But actually you just hang on a minute. So let's
look at one of the things they're grappling with and
what was motivating their desire to or the mayor's desire
to sell the airports. Hears it was issues around insurance
for natural disasters. Now, if we're going to set that
standard for the Wellington City Council, we'd need to set
that standard for every council in the country. You know,
if it's if it's saying councils need to be adequately
is more than that disasters is.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
More that reading reading picture theater. I mean it's you know,
mayor that goes out too much and plays upper burden.
There's a whole lot of reasons, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
But that's not unique to this council. I mean go
around to Shelley Bay and you'll see another example of
where Wellington Council has had dysfunction over a long period
of time. You know, Wellington City Council has always been
a bit of a hotbed of political activity. I don't
think that's unique to this council.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
So you think I do too. By the way, I
think that we're going to get through to the next
election without anything happening, because I don't think the Coalition
will want to make that sort of stand in their
first term.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
But I think the threshold has to be high. I
mean there are local elections, people elect local councilors and
some of those local councilors are going to have, you know,
opposing views. That's not grounds to sack them.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Do you think it was right to bring the sale
of the airport shows?
Speaker 3 (06:00):
I mean, ultimately that's a decision for Wellington City Council.
They've made that decision now.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
So you but you europe great Wellingtonian thank you think
of yourself as a Wellington Do you think it was
the right decision.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
I wasn't convinced that selling the airport she is was
the right way forward for Wellington City.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Do you think that Torrifaro has got the goods to
be a leader and be a mayor?
Speaker 3 (06:20):
I mean that's ultimately a decision for Wellington voters. I
think it's central I'm just kind of asking Europe. But
at the central government level, we've got to be able
to work with whoever local people elect is their mayor.
That it's not just in Wellington, that's an Auckland Christians
every other area. So I generally have tended to avoid
giving an opinion on whether someone's the right person to
be mayor anywhere, because I don't think that's my job
(06:41):
as a central government politician.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Do you think you would have worked if you were
the prime minister? You would have worked better with Toryfarno,
would have helped her more.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I think as a prime minister I would have been
working on the long term issues that local government across
the country faces, including Wellington City. You know, local government
in New Zealand isn't set up to thrive in the future.
Local government's got major challenges ahead.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Do we need local government?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
I think we do need local government, but I don't
think we're setting local government up to succeed at the moment.
You know, the narrow revenue base they've got, you know,
just with rates, means that they're disproportionately influenced, you know,
affecting potentially negativity some of the activity that we want
to see in local areas, and they're having to cut
back on things that communities also want to.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Can I also just ask you your personal view on amalgamation.
Let's keep capity out of it. Let's go potty to
upp hut in Wellington. I mean, isn't that just the
natural progression.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
I think it's inevitable at some point that Wellington will
end up with local government reorganization. I think it would
be far better if the local councils got together and
had that conversation themselves, rather than have anything like that
imposed by central government.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Do you think there's a chance that that could happen
by themselves without the central government getting involved.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
If they park their egos for a little bit, you know,
then maybe you could actually get a sensible conversation about
what a different form of local government in Wellington could
look like.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Let's talk about the poll tvn ZI poll on Monday Night,
Nationals on thirty seven, Labors on twenty nine. When it
comes to popularity, fifteen percent have you as their preferred
prime minister, while it's twenty five percent for Chrystal re Luxan.
Are you happy with this result?
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Poples don't mean a hell of a lot at this
point in the electoral cycle.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I mean, I bet if it had gone down further,
it would have.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Of course it would have been a bit more problematic
for us, But I mean, overall Labor's supporters increased since
the election. That's a good thing. My numbers have gone
down a bit, but you'd expect that. I'm not the
prime minister now, I'm not on the I'm not as
visible as I was then. And also, you know, being
a leader of the opposition is a more negative and
a more critical role. So I'm not that worried about that.
I mean, if you went back three years ago to
(08:42):
where we were last point in the electoral cycle, you
would have and you reported those pole results as a
definitive outcome of the last election, then Labor would still
be in government.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
What concerns me and will concern you is only fifty
four percent, And I've got I'm one of these people.
I'm sorry, but I'll tell you that I'm one of
them think that you will remain as Labor leader.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
This is surprising, well, a higher percentage than are currently
indicating they'd vote for the Labor Party. So you know,
I do take.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Only half the people actually believe that you're going to
be there come election.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
I don't think that. But I mean if you if
you hold the same about Christopher Lux and you probably
get similar numbers. They really I don't think they asked
that question.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Do you really think they would?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah, I mean at the end of the day, people,
you know, amongst that group of people who want me
to stay on there, we have a wide range of
political views. I've got very strong supporter clearly amongst Labor
and Green supporters. But you know, I'm much more interested
in growing Labour's share of the vote to be honest.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Okay, one in four Labor voters don't think that you
should stay on. That is a big number of your
own voters. It's one in four. So if we're having
a cup of tea in this four of us. One
of us is saying you shouldn't be there. That is
a high number within your.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Own Well it means three out of four are saying
that they think I should stay. So you know which
is which is in a democracy?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I do argue with that.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
In a democracy, you know you want to try and
get to a majority. Well that's more than a majority,
isn't it is.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Karen macinolty still lining up.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
No, not at all. He's got no interest in being
leader and he's made that really clear. This is a
you know, the National Party, you know, continue to ped
all this line care has been really clear. He doesn't
want to be leader.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Who's going to take it because you are going.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Nope, not at all. I'm here through to the next
election and I intend to do.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
You will be on the polling booths next year, our
next election.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Absolutely absolutely, I'll put money on it.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
I don't understand. I don't I don't quite get it.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Would you put money on Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Let's put one hundred dollars to your favorite charity me
and you done?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
All right?
Speaker 2 (10:35):
So my favorite charity, your favorite charity, one hundred smackeroos, yep.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Done.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
If you're not at sadding for I will.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Absolutely still be here. But not only that. Nick, when
I come back as prime minister again, you can double it.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Okay, if you come back, let's let's go a thousand
if you become prime minister. That's how brave I am.
Fair enough our favorite charity to each other?
Speaker 3 (10:56):
All right, fair enough so.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
That you're not we're not looking like we're gambling. We're
saying we're going to give it. So it's one thousand
dollars if you come back as prime minister.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yet good as gold?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
All right at the least election.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Yet good as gold?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Are you all right to give that charity? What will
my charity be?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Is it right?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
You're giving it to the Saints basketball team?
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Would you be right with it? Oh? No, it's got
to be a charity, not a sports team.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Oh okay, a charity?
Speaker 3 (11:15):
All right?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Right, thousand dollars. Did you get that? Ethan, loud and clear,
We've got that. What's the strategy for opposition right now?
Do you think it's effective? Do you think you're going
hard enough?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Oh? Yeah, Look, I think I said after the last
election that we would take some time to get out
and listen to people about why they didn't vote for us.
At the last election, and that's really what we've been doing.
You know, I don't think you win the next election
within the first year of losing one. I think what
you do after that, after losing an election is you
get out there and you reconnect with people.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Let's move on to health. There seems to be some
really big issues with health at the moment. The Needen
Hospital problem there, they don't want to build it like
you are going to build it. Nurs is arriving into
New Zealand, we can't get jobs and paying people money
to get them here to get them jobs. It seems
like we are really talking about health too much at
the moment.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I mean, we're talking about health because of the mess
that the current government are making of the health system,
or and.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Clean up they're trying to do of the masfice you left.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
But that's just nonsense, that's just nonsense. The twenty district
health boards were in nearing crisis when we became the
government at twenty seventeen, and then they had to go
through the you know, su boarding the country through a
global pandemic. Of course, the health system has been under pressure,
but actually you know, what's what have been one of
the biggest drivers of the current deficit. Well, nurses got
to pay equity claim. They got a pay equity settlement
(12:31):
and the government decided not to give that to the
to the health system to pay to pay.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
You're taking no responsibility for the situation that healths in
the New Zealand right now.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
I'm not going to take responsibility for decisions that this
government have taken. You know, we're a year into this
government's tenure now and they continue to blame labor for
the consequences of decisions that they have been making. I
think it's time that they stepped up and started to
take responsibility for their own decisions.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
We're talking about stepping up and taking responsibility for their
own decision. Do you think having a commission like Lester
Levy is a good idea?
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I mean, look, I don't think that they made the
case for sacking the board in the first place. I
think that they were looking for a scapegoat, looking for
someone to blame for the consequences of their decisions. But
that's this government's modus operandi. They're far more interested in
scattering blame around than they are in solving the problems
that the country actually faces.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Health New Zealand deficits expected to rise to one point
eight billion by the end of the financial year.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Why well, so they claim. I mean they've employed more
nurses to fill the shortages that we've had that they
were berating the previous government for, you know, the fact
that we had a shortage of nurses. They've now filled
those nurses vacancies, but they're not willing to pay for them.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
So how do we fix it? How do we fix
health apart from giving them a whole lot more money
and finding new tax money to actually be able to
do that.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
It's an inescapable reality that if we have a bigger population,
the health system requires more money because you've got more
people whose health needs need to be catered for. If
they do things like you know, increase smoking, which is
what this government had been doing, that's actually going to
cost the health system more money. So instead of putting
that money into tax breaks for Philip Morris is the
country's biggest cigarette provider, they could have put that money
(14:05):
into the health system.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Let's talk about the fast tracks. We haven't spoken since
that's come in. We learned the first bunch of projects
that the government wants to fast tack legislation last week
and for Wellington there's eight thousand new homes as well
as other projects like an airport, seawall. Elsewhere in New
Zealand they're more homes, but things like mining projects. Does
Labour support the fast track legislation now?
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I don't support this fast tracked legislation. We had a
fast track system in place before during COVID that worked.
It had environmental protections within it, it was more transparent
and I think that this is a step backwards for us.
And I also think there are legitimate concerns about the
fact that businesses who have donated to the National Party
or to New Zealand vers or to Act seem to
(14:48):
be getting preferentially for example, this process. Oh there is
a list of them floating around. I haven't got it
in front of me, but we're donors to those parties
are getting their projects fast tracked. I think that's a
terrible look for New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
A lot of Labour's concerns are about the environment stuff.
There's eleven mining projects in there. Why does this concern
you so greatly? When we look at our neighbors in
Australia and see how rich they're be coming out of it.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
I mean issues around coal mining for example, I mean
we should when we burn coal, we're literally burning the
planet that we rely on to sustain our life as well.
And truly time that we moved past fossil fuels. Some
mining is required for renewable energy for the green future
that we need, because you do need some of the
minerals to be able to embrace renewable energy, and so
(15:31):
we should proceed with caution there in Chase.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Interestingly, not one of these eight thousand homes that we
say are going to be fast track and built in
Wellington inside the city center. Many are and actually your
electerate surely is this a good thing or a bad thing?
Speaker 3 (15:49):
I mean, if we're talking about it, let's take fast
track out of it. If we're talking about where we
need to build more houses in Wellington and how we
solve some of Wellington's problems, more housing in the Wellington
CBD as part of how you revitalize Wellington CBD, so
that means more apartment blocks, more high density living in
the Wellington CBD. We're not seeing any of that, and
actually we do need more of that in Wellington. That's
(16:09):
part of how you'll bring Wellington back to life. The
idea that because people are working from home, it's killing
the CBD. I don't agree with that. Putting thousands of
people out of work is certainly affecting Wellington CBD.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Why are people moving to places like Upper Hut, La
Hut and Potted are out further now, why do you
think that's happening?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Well?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
For young families, you know they want a bit more space.
So I think we have to recognize that. You know,
there's an ages and stages thing here. When you've got
young families, you want to be near to a local
primary school. You want to your kids to be able
to walk to your problem many you want your kids
to walk or back to school. They want to have
big parks nearby to play in. They just want that space.
They want bigger houses. Different points of your life, perhaps
(16:48):
you know when you're at the beginning of your career
or when you're in retirement, then higher density living in
the city is a really viable option for you. So
I think there will be in ages and stages thing
here where you're not you're not necessarily going to unlike
in the past, You're not necessarily going to live the
same place your whole life.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
How are people feeling in your electric when you walk
down the streets, you go to the supermarket, you do
your normal stuff. How are people feeling? What are you
getting from them?
Speaker 3 (17:11):
It's pretty tough going out there at the moment. You know,
out on Upper Heart we saw a real slow down
and building construction over the last year or so. Seeing
some signs of life back in that sector again now,
but it's early days yet, so it's been pretty tough.
And of course there's an awful lot of Wellington commuters
there who commute into public service jobs in Wellington and
life's not that rosy for them at the moment.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
We started by talking about the problems or this perceived
problems there is within the Wellington City Council. We've heard
today that mea Torrifano's asked for a meeting at two
o'clock with all her council. What do you want to
see come out of that? What do you want her
to heard it show in that meeting.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I think Wellingtonians need to see that having gone through
the controversy around the Wellington Airport, that that's behind them
now and that they're constructively working together to finalize a
new long term plan for the city. I think that's
what Wellingtonians deserve to see.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Can you feel the difference in Wellington over the last
five years.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Absolutely, But I don't I wouldn't put all of that
on the council. I mean, I think the council have
mismanaged public relations in some areas. Cycle ways is a
really good example of their.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
So you cycle, so you behave.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
I'm a fan of cycle of waste, but I don't
think the council have managed the processes very well around
the establishment of cycle ways. But you know, a lot
of Wellington's problems are long term. These aren't things that
have suddenly popped up in the last five years. They've
been building for a long time.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
When you go home from Parliament, do you turn left
or right as you leave the driveway? Why do you
go up moles Swiss Street or do you go into
town and do so?
Speaker 3 (18:38):
No, up Molesworth Street.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
How bad is it?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Well, you know there's a lot of roadworks happening there.
Let's let's let them finish the road works and then
we'll see then you.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Think it's going to be okay?
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Too soon to tell?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Okay. Always a pleasure, Thank you, for taking time to
come in and talk to us as you do once
a month. I think it's going to be quite serious
Molesworth threats. So I think you might have to leave
a few more minutes and you and your traveling times
coming and going from work, because I think you're going
to see something. I don't think that's quite as constructural
(19:10):
the issues than you think they are.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Yeah, well, I mean only I only just sort of
it only just started happening in the last week or two,
so I've only sort of really noticed it in the
last week or two. I certainly caused some short term disruption,
as it always happens when you're doing big road work
projects like that. But it'll be interesting to see whether
it settles and things, you know, get better, or whether
they get worse. I think you're right. I wouldn't I
wouldn't put money on it either way at this point.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Well, you've already lost your income for the while the
next election, so you better start saving for that.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Well I know, no, I've just I've just got a
I've got an extra source of income after the next election.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
That Thank you always a pleasure. Thank you for coming
and taking time, and let's both watch with Beta Breath,
what happens in their council meeting.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, Listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Said b joining us now is labor leader and Ruematucker
MP Chris Hipkins has promised and he's turned up. How
you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Yeah, I'm very good, thank you. It's but chilly out
there on Wellington today, though it doesn't feel much like spring,
does it.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Well, it hasn't for the last couple of days. But
I got all my washing dried on the weekend, so
I was pretty damn happy.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Oh yeah, not bad. Actually there's some good gardening over
the weekend. So you can't complain, No, you can't. We're
not going to complain. It feels a lot better. We've
had a very good winter too, haven't we. Yeah, it's
actually been not too bad at all. Really, Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
CPI figures have just come through. We're now within the
Reserves bank one to three percent target range for the
first time in more than three years. Stats New Zealand
figures show the inflation rate was at two point two percent.
When when did you first hear this? What did you think?
What's going to change? What is it going to change?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I just heard it on the way here. Obviously it's
good news for the overall New Zealand economy, good news
for New Zealanders, but it also does show that the
government have overcooked things. You know, the Reserve Bank was
on track to get inflation and back down under that
three percent target. They were on track to do that
before the election. You know, they said second half of
this year, by the end of this year, we'd be
back on track, back within the target band. That's what
(01:18):
they've managed to achieve. But the government have taken it
from what could have been a relatively soft landing for
inflation and they've crashed it. So it's not a sottistic.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Crushing to do with the changes that the coalition governments done.
This is all on stuff that you'd already done.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
It's not actually to do with stuff governments done us
to do with the Reserve Bank. I mean, the Reserve
Bank hyked up interest rates. That does take a while
to flow through, but ultimately that has board inflation back down.
Now that is a good thing overall, and that will
mean interest rates start to come down again, which will
help to ease the pain. But in the meantime, the
government has inflicted a whole lot of extra pain.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
What do you think that the interest rates will come
down for me and you.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
I mean we'll start to see that, you know. I
suspect we'll see the bank starting to lower interest rates.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
You know, but what do you think that we could
get them to do? You reckon, we can get them
with three and four again.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
I don't think we're ever going to be in that
very low You know, there are some people who came
off fixed interest rates that were sort of in that
two to three percent range. I don't know that we'll
ever get back down to that lower area. I think
we'll end up sort of getting more back towards If
you look at it, you've got to think about interest
rates over a longer term. You know, if you've got
a mortgage over thirty years, there'll be periods where you're
paying a slightly higher rate in periods where you're paying
(02:23):
a lower rate. If you can get the average to
something more like five or six percent over that, you know,
over the thirty years of your mortgage, you're going to
be feeling better than if the average is more like
six or seven percent.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Okay, so you think we could get five or six percent,
or you still think it's going to be it'll take a.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Wee while I mean, I think there'll be ups and
downs in it. But you know, the good news is
the interest rates are starting to trend down again.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Okay, let's start with the biggest story in the campital
Wellington City Council. The Government has changed its language and
it's saying now that it's going to seek advice on intervening,
whether it's an observer, a commissioner, or even calling an
early election. Now you've publicly said you don't think it's
at that point, and I want to know why.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I don't think it's a point because the councils still
deserve the opportunity to come up with their long term
plan and show that they can balance their books and
that they've got a viable plan to lead Wellington Ford.
Councils arguing amongst each other, I mean, that is local dibidity.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
And it's more than that, isn't it. I mean, have
you watched any of the council meetings? Have you seen
any of it? It's more than that.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Oh but if you're going to apply that threshold of councils,
you know, fighting with each other, then you'll be sacking
half the meres across the country. Well tell me the
difference there's evil of dysfunction's got to be a bit
higher than people just you know, just disagree.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
We've got no long term plan. Well, I mean everyone
said that that was a disaster if we didn't come
up with a long term.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
They're going to have to amend that. They do have
a long term plan. They're now going to have to
amend it because they're not going ahead with the airports
shares sales. But they're going to have to meet it
anyway because the government scrapping the three you know, the
Affordable Water Reform, the three Waters, that meant they have
to go back and redo their long term plan anyway.
So they were going to have to change anyway.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Okay, now you were in cabinet when Labor appointed commissioners
in Tower on it. Why did you do that When
you say, now, you wouldn't do it in Wellington.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Because that council could not discharge its statutory obligations. It
couldn't actually do what the job that it legally was
required to do. So to Warlington City Council as well.
I mean, we're legally to producing the long term plan.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
And we haven't done that either.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Well, but you haven't mean that process hasn't finished yet.
If they don't produce a long term plan, then that
may well provide the grounds for statutory intervention.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
But according to the facts that I got Towerong, I
hadn't even started their ten year long term plan.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I'd have to go back and look at the exact criteria.
I mean the Toweringer Council was you know, definitely cross
you reckon? It was worse freshold do you reckon? It
was worse? Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
This is where I'm really struggling with it. Because you
live in Wellington, you're part of us. But if you
can see what we're going through.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
But actually you just hang on a minute. So let's
look at one of the things they're grappling with and
what was motivating their desire to or the mayor's desire
to sell the airports. Hears it was issues around insurance
for natural disasters. Now, if we're going to set that
standard for the Wellington City Council, we'd need to set
that standard for every council in the country. You know,
if it's if it's saying councils need to be adequately
is more than that disasters is.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
More that reading reading picture theater. I mean it's you know,
mayor that goes out too much and plays upper burden.
There's a whole lot of reasons, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
But that's not unique to this council. I mean go
around to Shelley Bay and you'll see another example of
where Wellington Council has had dysfunction over a long period
of time. You know, Wellington City Council has always been
a bit of a hotbed of political activity. I don't
think that's unique to this council.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
So you think I do too. By the way, I
think that we're going to get through to the next
election without anything happening, because I don't think the Coalition
will want to make that sort of stand in their
first term.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
But I think the threshold has to be high. I
mean there are local elections, people elect local councilors and
some of those local councilors are going to have, you know,
opposing views. That's not grounds to sack them.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Do you think it was right to bring the sale
of the airport shows?
Speaker 3 (06:00):
I mean, ultimately that's a decision for Wellington City Council.
They've made that decision now.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
So you but you europe great Wellingtonian thank you think
of yourself as a Wellington Do you think it was
the right decision.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
I wasn't convinced that selling the airport she is was
the right way forward for Wellington City.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Do you think that Torrifaro has got the goods to
be a leader and be a mayor?
Speaker 3 (06:20):
I mean that's ultimately a decision for Wellington voters. I
think it's central I'm just kind of asking Europe. But
at the central government level, we've got to be able
to work with whoever local people elect is their mayor.
That it's not just in Wellington, that's an Auckland Christians
every other area. So I generally have tended to avoid
giving an opinion on whether someone's the right person to
be mayor anywhere, because I don't think that's my job
(06:41):
as a central government politician.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Do you think you would have worked if you were
the prime minister? You would have worked better with Toryfarno,
would have helped her more.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I think as a prime minister I would have been
working on the long term issues that local government across
the country faces, including Wellington City. You know, local government
in New Zealand isn't set up to thrive in the future.
Local government's got major challenges ahead.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Do we need local government?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
I think we do need local government, but I don't
think we're setting local government up to succeed at the moment.
You know, the narrow revenue base they've got, you know,
just with rates, means that they're disproportionately influenced, you know,
affecting potentially negativity some of the activity that we want
to see in local areas, and they're having to cut
back on things that communities also want to.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Can I also just ask you your personal view on amalgamation.
Let's keep capity out of it. Let's go potty to
upp hut in Wellington. I mean, isn't that just the
natural progression.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
I think it's inevitable at some point that Wellington will
end up with local government reorganization. I think it would
be far better if the local councils got together and
had that conversation themselves, rather than have anything like that
imposed by central government.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Do you think there's a chance that that could happen
by themselves without the central government getting involved.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
If they park their egos for a little bit, you know,
then maybe you could actually get a sensible conversation about
what a different form of local government in Wellington could
look like.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Let's talk about the poll tvn ZI poll on Monday Night,
Nationals on thirty seven, Labors on twenty nine. When it
comes to popularity, fifteen percent have you as their preferred
prime minister, while it's twenty five percent for Chrystal re Luxan.
Are you happy with this result?
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Poples don't mean a hell of a lot at this
point in the electoral cycle.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I mean, I bet if it had gone down further,
it would have.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Of course it would have been a bit more problematic
for us, But I mean, overall Labor's supporters increased since
the election. That's a good thing. My numbers have gone
down a bit, but you'd expect that. I'm not the
prime minister now, I'm not on the I'm not as
visible as I was then. And also, you know, being
a leader of the opposition is a more negative and
a more critical role. So I'm not that worried about that.
I mean, if you went back three years ago to
(08:42):
where we were last point in the electoral cycle, you
would have and you reported those pole results as a
definitive outcome of the last election, then Labor would still
be in government.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
What concerns me and will concern you is only fifty
four percent, And I've got I'm one of these people.
I'm sorry, but I'll tell you that I'm one of
them think that you will remain as Labor leader.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
This is surprising, well, a higher percentage than are currently
indicating they'd vote for the Labor Party. So you know,
I do take.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Only half the people actually believe that you're going to
be there come election.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
I don't think that. But I mean if you if
you hold the same about Christopher Lux and you probably
get similar numbers. They really I don't think they asked
that question.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Do you really think they would?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah, I mean at the end of the day, people,
you know, amongst that group of people who want me
to stay on there, we have a wide range of
political views. I've got very strong supporter clearly amongst Labor
and Green supporters. But you know, I'm much more interested
in growing Labour's share of the vote to be honest.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Okay, one in four Labor voters don't think that you
should stay on. That is a big number of your
own voters. It's one in four. So if we're having
a cup of tea in this four of us. One
of us is saying you shouldn't be there. That is
a high number within your.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Own Well it means three out of four are saying
that they think I should stay. So you know which
is which is in a democracy?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I do argue with that.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
In a democracy, you know you want to try and
get to a majority. Well that's more than a majority,
isn't it is.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Karen macinolty still lining up.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
No, not at all. He's got no interest in being
leader and he's made that really clear. This is a
you know, the National Party, you know, continue to ped
all this line care has been really clear. He doesn't
want to be leader.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Who's going to take it because you are going.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Nope, not at all. I'm here through to the next
election and I intend to do.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
You will be on the polling booths next year, our
next election.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Absolutely absolutely, I'll put money on it.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
I don't understand. I don't I don't quite get it.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Would you put money on Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Let's put one hundred dollars to your favorite charity me
and you done?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
All right?
Speaker 2 (10:35):
So my favorite charity, your favorite charity, one hundred smackeroos, yep.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Done.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
If you're not at sadding for I will.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Absolutely still be here. But not only that. Nick, when
I come back as prime minister again, you can double it.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Okay, if you come back, let's let's go a thousand
if you become prime minister. That's how brave I am.
Fair enough our favorite charity to each other?
Speaker 3 (10:56):
All right, fair enough so.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
That you're not we're not looking like we're gambling. We're
saying we're going to give it. So it's one thousand
dollars if you come back as prime minister.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yet good as gold?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
All right at the least election.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Yet good as gold?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Are you all right to give that charity? What will
my charity be?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Is it right?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
You're giving it to the Saints basketball team?
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Would you be right with it? Oh? No, it's got
to be a charity, not a sports team.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Oh okay, a charity?
Speaker 3 (11:15):
All right?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Right, thousand dollars. Did you get that? Ethan, loud and clear,
We've got that. What's the strategy for opposition right now?
Do you think it's effective? Do you think you're going
hard enough?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Oh? Yeah, Look, I think I said after the last
election that we would take some time to get out
and listen to people about why they didn't vote for us.
At the last election, and that's really what we've been doing.
You know, I don't think you win the next election
within the first year of losing one. I think what
you do after that, after losing an election is you
get out there and you reconnect with people.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Let's move on to health. There seems to be some
really big issues with health at the moment. The Needen
Hospital problem there, they don't want to build it like
you are going to build it. Nurs is arriving into
New Zealand, we can't get jobs and paying people money
to get them here to get them jobs. It seems
like we are really talking about health too much at
the moment.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I mean, we're talking about health because of the mess
that the current government are making of the health system,
or and.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Clean up they're trying to do of the masfice you left.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
But that's just nonsense, that's just nonsense. The twenty district
health boards were in nearing crisis when we became the
government at twenty seventeen, and then they had to go
through the you know, su boarding the country through a
global pandemic. Of course, the health system has been under pressure,
but actually you know, what's what have been one of
the biggest drivers of the current deficit. Well, nurses got
to pay equity claim. They got a pay equity settlement
(12:31):
and the government decided not to give that to the
to the health system to pay to pay.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
You're taking no responsibility for the situation that healths in
the New Zealand right now.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
I'm not going to take responsibility for decisions that this
government have taken. You know, we're a year into this
government's tenure now and they continue to blame labor for
the consequences of decisions that they have been making. I
think it's time that they stepped up and started to
take responsibility for their own decisions.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
We're talking about stepping up and taking responsibility for their
own decision. Do you think having a commission like Lester
Levy is a good idea?
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I mean, look, I don't think that they made the
case for sacking the board in the first place. I
think that they were looking for a scapegoat, looking for
someone to blame for the consequences of their decisions. But
that's this government's modus operandi. They're far more interested in
scattering blame around than they are in solving the problems
that the country actually faces.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Health New Zealand deficits expected to rise to one point
eight billion by the end of the financial year.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Why well, so they claim. I mean they've employed more
nurses to fill the shortages that we've had that they
were berating the previous government for, you know, the fact
that we had a shortage of nurses. They've now filled
those nurses vacancies, but they're not willing to pay for them.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
So how do we fix it? How do we fix
health apart from giving them a whole lot more money
and finding new tax money to actually be able to
do that.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
It's an inescapable reality that if we have a bigger population,
the health system requires more money because you've got more
people whose health needs need to be catered for. If
they do things like you know, increase smoking, which is
what this government had been doing, that's actually going to
cost the health system more money. So instead of putting
that money into tax breaks for Philip Morris is the
country's biggest cigarette provider, they could have put that money
(14:05):
into the health system.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Let's talk about the fast tracks. We haven't spoken since
that's come in. We learned the first bunch of projects
that the government wants to fast tack legislation last week
and for Wellington there's eight thousand new homes as well
as other projects like an airport, seawall. Elsewhere in New
Zealand they're more homes, but things like mining projects. Does
Labour support the fast track legislation now?
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I don't support this fast tracked legislation. We had a
fast track system in place before during COVID that worked.
It had environmental protections within it, it was more transparent
and I think that this is a step backwards for us.
And I also think there are legitimate concerns about the
fact that businesses who have donated to the National Party
or to New Zealand vers or to Act seem to
(14:48):
be getting preferentially for example, this process. Oh there is
a list of them floating around. I haven't got it
in front of me, but we're donors to those parties
are getting their projects fast tracked. I think that's a
terrible look for New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
A lot of Labour's concerns are about the environment stuff.
There's eleven mining projects in there. Why does this concern
you so greatly? When we look at our neighbors in
Australia and see how rich they're be coming out of it.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
I mean issues around coal mining for example, I mean
we should when we burn coal, we're literally burning the
planet that we rely on to sustain our life as well.
And truly time that we moved past fossil fuels. Some
mining is required for renewable energy for the green future
that we need, because you do need some of the
minerals to be able to embrace renewable energy, and so
(15:31):
we should proceed with caution there in Chase.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Interestingly, not one of these eight thousand homes that we
say are going to be fast track and built in
Wellington inside the city center. Many are and actually your
electerate surely is this a good thing or a bad thing?
Speaker 3 (15:49):
I mean, if we're talking about it, let's take fast
track out of it. If we're talking about where we
need to build more houses in Wellington and how we
solve some of Wellington's problems, more housing in the Wellington
CBD as part of how you revitalize Wellington CBD, so
that means more apartment blocks, more high density living in
the Wellington CBD. We're not seeing any of that, and
actually we do need more of that in Wellington. That's
(16:09):
part of how you'll bring Wellington back to life. The
idea that because people are working from home, it's killing
the CBD. I don't agree with that. Putting thousands of
people out of work is certainly affecting Wellington CBD.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Why are people moving to places like Upper Hut, La
Hut and Potted are out further now, why do you
think that's happening?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Well?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
For young families, you know they want a bit more space.
So I think we have to recognize that. You know,
there's an ages and stages thing here. When you've got
young families, you want to be near to a local
primary school. You want to your kids to be able
to walk to your problem many you want your kids
to walk or back to school. They want to have
big parks nearby to play in. They just want that space.
They want bigger houses. Different points of your life, perhaps
(16:48):
you know when you're at the beginning of your career
or when you're in retirement, then higher density living in
the city is a really viable option for you. So
I think there will be in ages and stages thing
here where you're not you're not necessarily going to unlike
in the past, You're not necessarily going to live the
same place your whole life.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
How are people feeling in your electric when you walk
down the streets, you go to the supermarket, you do
your normal stuff. How are people feeling? What are you
getting from them?
Speaker 3 (17:11):
It's pretty tough going out there at the moment. You know,
out on Upper Heart we saw a real slow down
and building construction over the last year or so. Seeing
some signs of life back in that sector again now,
but it's early days yet, so it's been pretty tough.
And of course there's an awful lot of Wellington commuters
there who commute into public service jobs in Wellington and
life's not that rosy for them at the moment.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
We started by talking about the problems or this perceived
problems there is within the Wellington City Council. We've heard
today that mea Torrifano's asked for a meeting at two
o'clock with all her council. What do you want to
see come out of that? What do you want her
to heard it show in that meeting.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I think Wellingtonians need to see that having gone through
the controversy around the Wellington Airport, that that's behind them
now and that they're constructively working together to finalize a
new long term plan for the city. I think that's
what Wellingtonians deserve to see.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Can you feel the difference in Wellington over the last
five years.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Absolutely, But I don't I wouldn't put all of that
on the council. I mean, I think the council have
mismanaged public relations in some areas. Cycle ways is a
really good example of their.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
So you cycle, so you behave.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
I'm a fan of cycle of waste, but I don't
think the council have managed the processes very well around
the establishment of cycle ways. But you know, a lot
of Wellington's problems are long term. These aren't things that
have suddenly popped up in the last five years. They've
been building for a long time.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
When you go home from Parliament, do you turn left
or right as you leave the driveway? Why do you
go up moles Swiss Street or do you go into
town and do so?
Speaker 3 (18:38):
No, up Molesworth Street.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
How bad is it?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Well, you know there's a lot of roadworks happening there.
Let's let's let them finish the road works and then
we'll see then you.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Think it's going to be okay?
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Too soon to tell?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Okay. Always a pleasure, Thank you, for taking time to
come in and talk to us as you do once
a month. I think it's going to be quite serious
Molesworth threats. So I think you might have to leave
a few more minutes and you and your traveling times
coming and going from work, because I think you're going
to see something. I don't think that's quite as constructural
(19:10):
the issues than you think they are.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Yeah, well, I mean only I only just sort of
it only just started happening in the last week or two,
so I've only sort of really noticed it in the
last week or two. I certainly caused some short term disruption,
as it always happens when you're doing big road work
projects like that. But it'll be interesting to see whether
it settles and things, you know, get better, or whether
they get worse. I think you're right. I wouldn't I
wouldn't put money on it either way at this point.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Well, you've already lost your income for the while the
next election, so you better start saving for that.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Well I know, no, I've just I've just got a
I've got an extra source of income after the next election.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
That Thank you always a pleasure. Thank you for coming
and taking time, and let's both watch with Beta Breath,
what happens in their council meeting.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, Listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.