October 22, 2024 • 11 mins
Local government minister Simeon Brown has decided to appoint a Crown observer to Wellington City Council.
The decision was reached after the council's long-term plan was forced back to the council table after a vote to ditch the sale of the council's 34% stake in Wellington Airport.
Now all eyes turn to who the observer will be - and what problems they might uncover.
NZ Herald's Wellington issues reporter Georgina Campbell joined Nick Mills for the Capital Letter.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks at B taking the pulse of the
city The Capital Letter on News Talks ed B.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Joining us for the Capital Letter as New Zealand herold
Wellington's issues reported Georgina Campbell And now I know Georgina's
been extremely busy over the last couple of weeks, but
there's only one story I want to talk about this morning, Georgia.
It's the story of the decision to appoint an observer.
What was your initial thoughts when the email came through
(00:41):
on your system about lunchtime yesterday.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Well, the adrenaline was pumping. I really couldn't pick which
way the government was going to go, but I think
the government did give some very strong indications.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Can I just interrupt you so our listeners know what
do you mean? Which way they were going observer, commissioner
or nothing? An observer.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I think it was always between an observer or nothing.
I think commissioners would have been completely ridiculous for the
situation that the Council is in. It's not at loggerheads completely,
it's not stuck like it's still making decisions. So yeah, look,
it was all go yesterday. And I think when you
(01:26):
look back in retrospect, when you have senior ministers calling
Wellington City Council are shambles. When you have Simy and
Brown asking for advice on potential interventions and making that
very public that he has asked for advice, I think
that signals a clear intention of of course what has
come to pass.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
How do you reckon that the rape players will take this?
How do you think they'll be feeling about it?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I reckon that they will feel vindicated. And that's because
of the details in this announcement yesterday from Simy and Brown.
The government has essentially poured cold water on Tori Farno's
insistence that high rates increases are a bitter pill the
capital has to swallow. So the details are in this
(02:14):
press release is that Simeon Brown has accused the Council
of financial mismanagement, front loading costs on ratepayers to the
extent that Wellingtonians could be overcharged for water services by
more than seven hundred million dollars.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Where did this come from? Just sort of came from nowhere,
didn't it?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Well, this is the question. He is referring to DIA advice.
That's the Department of Internal Affairs, which gave him the
advice on potential interventions. I went to Wellington City Council
this morning and said, well, would you like to have
right of reply to all of these accusations and these
numbers that Simon Brown has quoted in his press release?
(02:54):
And they said no, not, we don't want to comment
at the moment. We're still working to understand what he
actually means and where these numbers have come from.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Did you know any about the number?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
No. I think it was surprising to have water infrastructure
so heavily used as used as an example in this announcement,
because really the narrative has been around the sale of
the airport shares, the upending of the long term plan,
the huge cuts in capital expenditure. The politics around the
table water infrastructure has of course always been a problem
(03:30):
for the council, but I think Tory Vano has pitched
it as something that they actually agree on. And this
record investment one point eight billion dollars in water infrastructure,
as you know, like kind of a win and now
even that is unraveling if Simon Brown's comments is anything.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Also, wonder if you know this has been mischievous on
my part, But I also wonder whether the government's thinking
that if we say that you know, you know, you
haven't borrowed enough money and you've put it on the
rate payers, the rate players are going to think more
angry than they already are because we know our rates
are so ridiculous. Do you reckon that could be some
sort of conspiracy thought on that.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yeah, Well, I think what Simeon Brown is saying or
questioning is do rates actually have to be as high
as they are? And he's saying that, you know, the
rates are being front loaded to pay for water infrastructure,
and so I think there is that vindication there for
many Wellingtonians who've raised wider concerns about council spending, just
(04:32):
noting d i A rightfully did not pass judgment on
cycle ways or the Golden mil or anything like that,
but I think it sort of gives them vindication for
that wider narrative and concern around the way Wellington City
Council is spending and whether that is you know, being
done as it is.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
There a slight risk or any risk that the government
will become associated with this sort of mess with the council.
The fact that they're in there now.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah. I wrote a column last week just posing the
question should Simeon Brown actually be running amid from Wellington
City Council because it's going to be a really tough
time amending this long term plan. We're talking big budget
cuts and community projects will be on the chopping block.
They are going to be controversial. People are not going
(05:21):
to like that. So, you know, does Same and Brown
really want to be associated with all of that by
putting in a Crown observer? And you know, like if
a left leaning council with a green and doorse mayor
wants to sell assets and make big budget cuts, maybe
he should just leave them to it. Obviously he has
decided not to, but he did address this point yesterday
in his announcement by saying that the Government is very
(05:43):
clear that it is not taking responsibility for any decisions
made by the council by appointing an observer, and that
that responsibility remained with the mayor and counselors, who also
continued to be accountable to their constituents. And as we
well know, this kind of accountability is best exercised at
the ballot box. Local body elections are less than a
(06:04):
year away. My colleague Ethan Mine has written a great
story outlining several high profile names that are already being
floated as possible candidates.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
What about going forward? What about that whatever Simeon Brown
said about right now, but going forward over the next
few months, if they do make some decisions, could there
be some negative links to that? You know, they might say, nope,
the Golden Miles not going you know, you're what I'm saying.
If the observer goes back to the minister and the
minister makes some decisions, could there be some negative attachments
(06:33):
to that?
Speaker 3 (06:35):
I think the key the key with the Crown Observer
title right is observer like.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
They're there, so they're not making any decisions. No, what
about the minister? Can the minister make decisions based on
what the observer says?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
No, the minister cannot then come in and say I
don't think you should be funding the Golden Mile. That's
off the table.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Oh okay. So it's really it's a nothing position there,
isn't it.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
They're there to observe and report back to the minister,
and I guess it is a stepping stone to which,
as I have said, I think is inappropriate at this time.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
But if they found out a whole lot of stuff
and it was like, oh my god, this is really bad,
that could happen. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
I think like the two three sholds for commissioners that
we've seen in recent times is that if the council's
finances are an absolute mess, and if the counselors cannot
make your decisions, so this will be the test.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
That's why Torri Fano is saying she's so hyper focused
on this long term plan agaendment because if they get
to the middle of next year and they cannot agree,
they're in deep trouble.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Okay, why has the government finally intervened? What do you
think was the thing that got it over the line, Because,
I mean it did happened pretty quickly. We were on
the show yesterday kicking up and saying, come on, so
me and make a decision, make a decision. I'll beat
my lunch choking on it because he'd already made a decision.
You don't.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yeah, I mean it's happened in a week basically, And
I just wanted to point out, you know, like the
calls for government intervention in Wellington City Council have been
going on four years. You know, like, this is not
a new thing, but we haven't had government intervention until now.
And if you think that to Andy Foster's counsel was
painted as divided, with counselors in the mayor regularly being
(08:19):
at loggerheads with one another. But it's just worth noting
that Andy Foster's counsel did not vote to undo a
key strategic document, being the Long Term Plan outlining billions
of dollars worth of spending, just months after signing it off.
And that's the difference in the amendment to the Long
Term Plan. This isn't like a small amendment. There are
huge ramifications for this. It kind of upends the whole thing.
(08:42):
Although Tory Fano disagrees with my characterization of that.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Okay, can I just ask you before before I let
you go, As you were at Tori Fino's press conference yesterday,
what did you make of her reaction?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
She was cool, calm and collected, and there was some
speculation that you know, she might have actually have been
ready for that press conference last week, you know, like
I think she saw which way the winds were blowing,
and I think she was prepared for the government to
announce that.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah. See, I think the complete opposite. I think she
was so damn confident she didn't think it was going
to be happening.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
I think, you know, she said she accepted it and
that she's happy to work with the Crown Observer, which
is probably the right thing to do rather than kicking
up a huge fuss. But she did use some interesting language, like,
you know, she said that, you know, people have been
punching down, and I didn't.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Like that at all. That she's used that before, isn't it.
It's almost like that's her go to at the moment, like,
you know, people punching down.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I mean, yes, she does use that phrase a lot.
I have heard her use it before, but yeah, I'm
not really sure if that's like the appropriate way to
describe the situation, like we're talking about Wellington City Council.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
I think that she sort of perhaps so, well, at
least they're going to get along and help us and
try and make it work, and that's great that we've
got the power of the government beside us.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Yeah, and she did sort of say that, but then
she also said punching down as well, and just of
lent into some questions about well, you know, like how
does this square with the government kind of campaigning on localism, and.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Okay, quickly, because we've got to go. Where does it
leave us? Where do we go? What happens? Oh, there's
a lot of questions, there wasn't it. Yeah, gosh, and
do it in thirty seconds.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
The next step is who is the Crown observer? Who
is the council going to be working with? And then
I think we'll be able.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
To I hear it in the name. Can I tell
you the names that I'm hearing? And Nick King has
said no, apparently because they had talked to her previous Apparently.
I'm taking this from very reliable sources. I don't believe
Dame Carey Brenda Gas has been asked yet, but apparently
they're not going to They're going to let the ten
days go, as you know, before they decide who they're
going to go for. And I put in Peter Dunn
(10:53):
is another one.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
So yeah, I think those those are three names that
have been floating around that I've also heard, and you know,
all would bring pretty good experience in that position.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I'd say, yeah, very good, very good. You haven't got
an you haven't got any scoop on anyone else.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
No, but I'm trying to find out. So if any
any of your listeners have well placed sources and want
to you know, let me know.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
What does your email give us your email address.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
George, Georgina dot Campbell at in zid, me dot co
dot inzid.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
There you go, line. Flick her a line, because you
know that she's like a dog that's had their bone
taken off them. When she's trying to find out something,
she's going to go and go and go until she
gets it. Always a pleasure, Georgina, Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills. Listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks at B taking the pulse of the
city The Capital Letter on News Talks ed B.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Joining us for the Capital Letter as New Zealand herold
Wellington's issues reported Georgina Campbell And now I know Georgina's
been extremely busy over the last couple of weeks, but
there's only one story I want to talk about this morning, Georgia.
It's the story of the decision to appoint an observer.
What was your initial thoughts when the email came through
(00:41):
on your system about lunchtime yesterday.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Well, the adrenaline was pumping. I really couldn't pick which
way the government was going to go, but I think
the government did give some very strong indications.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Can I just interrupt you so our listeners know what
do you mean? Which way they were going observer, commissioner
or nothing? An observer.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I think it was always between an observer or nothing.
I think commissioners would have been completely ridiculous for the
situation that the Council is in. It's not at loggerheads completely,
it's not stuck like it's still making decisions. So yeah, look,
it was all go yesterday. And I think when you
(01:26):
look back in retrospect, when you have senior ministers calling
Wellington City Council are shambles. When you have Simy and
Brown asking for advice on potential interventions and making that
very public that he has asked for advice, I think
that signals a clear intention of of course what has
come to pass.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
How do you reckon that the rape players will take this?
How do you think they'll be feeling about it?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I reckon that they will feel vindicated. And that's because
of the details in this announcement yesterday from Simy and Brown.
The government has essentially poured cold water on Tori Farno's
insistence that high rates increases are a bitter pill the
capital has to swallow. So the details are in this
(02:14):
press release is that Simeon Brown has accused the Council
of financial mismanagement, front loading costs on ratepayers to the
extent that Wellingtonians could be overcharged for water services by
more than seven hundred million dollars.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Where did this come from? Just sort of came from nowhere,
didn't it?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Well, this is the question. He is referring to DIA advice.
That's the Department of Internal Affairs, which gave him the
advice on potential interventions. I went to Wellington City Council
this morning and said, well, would you like to have
right of reply to all of these accusations and these
numbers that Simon Brown has quoted in his press release?
(02:54):
And they said no, not, we don't want to comment
at the moment. We're still working to understand what he
actually means and where these numbers have come from.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Did you know any about the number?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
No. I think it was surprising to have water infrastructure
so heavily used as used as an example in this announcement,
because really the narrative has been around the sale of
the airport shares, the upending of the long term plan,
the huge cuts in capital expenditure. The politics around the
table water infrastructure has of course always been a problem
(03:30):
for the council, but I think Tory Vano has pitched
it as something that they actually agree on. And this
record investment one point eight billion dollars in water infrastructure,
as you know, like kind of a win and now
even that is unraveling if Simon Brown's comments is anything.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Also, wonder if you know this has been mischievous on
my part, But I also wonder whether the government's thinking
that if we say that you know, you know, you
haven't borrowed enough money and you've put it on the
rate payers, the rate players are going to think more
angry than they already are because we know our rates
are so ridiculous. Do you reckon that could be some
sort of conspiracy thought on that.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yeah, Well, I think what Simeon Brown is saying or
questioning is do rates actually have to be as high
as they are? And he's saying that, you know, the
rates are being front loaded to pay for water infrastructure,
and so I think there is that vindication there for
many Wellingtonians who've raised wider concerns about council spending, just
(04:32):
noting d i A rightfully did not pass judgment on
cycle ways or the Golden mil or anything like that,
but I think it sort of gives them vindication for
that wider narrative and concern around the way Wellington City
Council is spending and whether that is you know, being
done as it is.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
There a slight risk or any risk that the government
will become associated with this sort of mess with the council.
The fact that they're in there now.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah. I wrote a column last week just posing the
question should Simeon Brown actually be running amid from Wellington
City Council because it's going to be a really tough
time amending this long term plan. We're talking big budget
cuts and community projects will be on the chopping block.
They are going to be controversial. People are not going
(05:21):
to like that. So, you know, does Same and Brown
really want to be associated with all of that by
putting in a Crown observer? And you know, like if
a left leaning council with a green and doorse mayor
wants to sell assets and make big budget cuts, maybe
he should just leave them to it. Obviously he has
decided not to, but he did address this point yesterday
in his announcement by saying that the Government is very
(05:43):
clear that it is not taking responsibility for any decisions
made by the council by appointing an observer, and that
that responsibility remained with the mayor and counselors, who also
continued to be accountable to their constituents. And as we
well know, this kind of accountability is best exercised at
the ballot box. Local body elections are less than a
(06:04):
year away. My colleague Ethan Mine has written a great
story outlining several high profile names that are already being
floated as possible candidates.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
What about going forward? What about that whatever Simeon Brown
said about right now, but going forward over the next
few months, if they do make some decisions, could there
be some negative links to that? You know, they might say, nope,
the Golden Miles not going you know, you're what I'm saying.
If the observer goes back to the minister and the
minister makes some decisions, could there be some negative attachments
(06:33):
to that?
Speaker 3 (06:35):
I think the key the key with the Crown Observer
title right is observer like.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
They're there, so they're not making any decisions. No, what
about the minister? Can the minister make decisions based on
what the observer says?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
No, the minister cannot then come in and say I
don't think you should be funding the Golden Mile. That's
off the table.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Oh okay. So it's really it's a nothing position there,
isn't it.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
They're there to observe and report back to the minister,
and I guess it is a stepping stone to which,
as I have said, I think is inappropriate at this time.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
But if they found out a whole lot of stuff
and it was like, oh my god, this is really bad,
that could happen. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
I think like the two three sholds for commissioners that
we've seen in recent times is that if the council's
finances are an absolute mess, and if the counselors cannot
make your decisions, so this will be the test.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
That's why Torri Fano is saying she's so hyper focused
on this long term plan agaendment because if they get
to the middle of next year and they cannot agree,
they're in deep trouble.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Okay, why has the government finally intervened? What do you
think was the thing that got it over the line, Because,
I mean it did happened pretty quickly. We were on
the show yesterday kicking up and saying, come on, so
me and make a decision, make a decision. I'll beat
my lunch choking on it because he'd already made a decision.
You don't.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yeah, I mean it's happened in a week basically, And
I just wanted to point out, you know, like the
calls for government intervention in Wellington City Council have been
going on four years. You know, like, this is not
a new thing, but we haven't had government intervention until now.
And if you think that to Andy Foster's counsel was
painted as divided, with counselors in the mayor regularly being
(08:19):
at loggerheads with one another. But it's just worth noting
that Andy Foster's counsel did not vote to undo a
key strategic document, being the Long Term Plan outlining billions
of dollars worth of spending, just months after signing it off.
And that's the difference in the amendment to the Long
Term Plan. This isn't like a small amendment. There are
huge ramifications for this. It kind of upends the whole thing.
(08:42):
Although Tory Fano disagrees with my characterization of that.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Okay, can I just ask you before before I let
you go, As you were at Tori Fino's press conference yesterday,
what did you make of her reaction?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
She was cool, calm and collected, and there was some
speculation that you know, she might have actually have been
ready for that press conference last week, you know, like
I think she saw which way the winds were blowing,
and I think she was prepared for the government to
announce that.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah. See, I think the complete opposite. I think she
was so damn confident she didn't think it was going
to be happening.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
I think, you know, she said she accepted it and
that she's happy to work with the Crown Observer, which
is probably the right thing to do rather than kicking
up a huge fuss. But she did use some interesting language, like,
you know, she said that, you know, people have been
punching down, and I didn't.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Like that at all. That she's used that before, isn't it.
It's almost like that's her go to at the moment, like,
you know, people punching down.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I mean, yes, she does use that phrase a lot.
I have heard her use it before, but yeah, I'm
not really sure if that's like the appropriate way to
describe the situation, like we're talking about Wellington City Council.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
I think that she sort of perhaps so, well, at
least they're going to get along and help us and
try and make it work, and that's great that we've
got the power of the government beside us.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Yeah, and she did sort of say that, but then
she also said punching down as well, and just of
lent into some questions about well, you know, like how
does this square with the government kind of campaigning on localism, and.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Okay, quickly, because we've got to go. Where does it
leave us? Where do we go? What happens? Oh, there's
a lot of questions, there wasn't it. Yeah, gosh, and
do it in thirty seconds.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
The next step is who is the Crown observer? Who
is the council going to be working with? And then
I think we'll be able.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
To I hear it in the name. Can I tell
you the names that I'm hearing? And Nick King has
said no, apparently because they had talked to her previous Apparently.
I'm taking this from very reliable sources. I don't believe
Dame Carey Brenda Gas has been asked yet, but apparently
they're not going to They're going to let the ten
days go, as you know, before they decide who they're
going to go for. And I put in Peter Dunn
(10:53):
is another one.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
So yeah, I think those those are three names that
have been floating around that I've also heard, and you know,
all would bring pretty good experience in that position.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I'd say, yeah, very good, very good. You haven't got
an you haven't got any scoop on anyone else.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
No, but I'm trying to find out. So if any
any of your listeners have well placed sources and want
to you know, let me know.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
What does your email give us your email address.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
George, Georgina dot Campbell at in zid, me dot co
dot inzid.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
There you go, line. Flick her a line, because you
know that she's like a dog that's had their bone
taken off them. When she's trying to find out something,
she's going to go and go and go until she
gets it. Always a pleasure, Georgina, Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills. Listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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