November 12, 2024 • 20 mins
In his regular catch up with Newstalk ZB's Nick Mills, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said he would link up with protesters against the Treaty Principles Bill when the hīkoi arrives in Wellington.
Hipkins also discussed the apology to survivors of Abuse in Care, Wellington City Council's new Crown Observer, and the result of the US Election.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said, b.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Join us now as promised Labor leader, Opposition leader and
MP for Romatucker Risipkins.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Coming Chris today, How are you going?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Nice walk down here from Parliament? I just you just
told me that you walked down here.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
It was a very nice walk. Actually quite hot out
there today. Let's hope that the summers finally arrived. Although
I've just heard the forecast it doesn't sound like it's
going to last.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
But you went on I saw the other day in
the media that you went for a five k run
and you said, yesterday you rode to work. Is this
a summer summer Chrissipkins.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yeah, well I've still got all those sausage rolls from
last year to wear off. But no, I first time
I've done a sort of competitive running race. I mean,
not that I was competitive. And then yesterday bike to
work thirty k's from Upper to Wellington.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Is that fitness a big thing for you?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Yeah, something that I've got to work on, you know,
Like I've been fit when I was about ten kilos
lighter before I became Prime Minister. So I've I've still
got that extra weight that I put on last year
to shake off. So I'm hoping over the summer to
make a bit of progress on that.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Well, good start, five k run, thirty k bike ride
and a walk down from Parliament to news talks, there'd
be well into the mornings.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Exactly what perfect way to start the week?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Okay, right? Yesterday was not the perfect day to start
the week, really was it. Yesterday the government formally apologized
to victims of abuse, which you also have to pay
your pardon in state care, something thousands of victims have
waited decades for. But the apology came with no redress
or compensation, which the government says are still working on. Firstly,
(01:36):
I want to ask you how did you feel the
apology went yesterday?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I mean, I think it was always going to be
a really difficult to apology because the abuse in state
here we're talking about probably two hundred and fifty thousand people,
and there are going to be different issues for all
of them, and so that's always going to be challenging
to try and make sure that we recognize everybody and
that we recognize their truth. And so you know, that
was always going to be a very challenging day, and
(02:02):
we certainly heard a lot of feedback from the survivors
yesterday as well. I think you're right on redress. You know,
they're waiting for that. They've been waiting a long time
for that. And what I said to the government yesterday
was let's get on with it. I don't want to
make this into a political football. I want the government
to do the right thing, and I've told them that
if they do do the right thing, that we will
be one hundred percent behind them.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Do you think that it actually was a little bit
hollow without something, I mean, just some sort of regress
even saying, hey, we're going to investigate a couple of
people that we know did the wrong thing. They're going
to do this, Just something to give them a little
tease of it.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's important that we get
it right, but we need to get it right quickly.
I just don't think, you know, we can't waste another
day that people involved have fought so long and hard.
It's well and truly time that they got the justice
that they've been fighting for.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Have you had any discussions with the government on this,
I mean, how much are they going to get paid?
How long they had to be in you know, and
locked up, How much abuse did they have to have.
Is it going to be some sort of determining factor
of how they dish it all out.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
No, they haven't spoken to us about that. Obviously, there's
an open invitation for them to do that at any point,
but been pretty clear that you know, we're going to
be as supportive as possible here. You know, it's going
to be a big amount of money if they do
it right. If you look around the world, other countries
have grappled with us. If you do it right, it's
not cheap, but nor should we be aiming to cut
(03:20):
costs here.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
You would have been in government when knowing this was impeding.
You know, you knew it was coming absolutely, you know,
and you know you must have had some idea where
the compensation was going to lie, have.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
You, Yeah, No, I didn't. I never got a number
like I never got an indication of what the quantum
might be. Part of the reason was the final report
of the Royal Commission, I guess was needed to really
reveal the true extent of the abuse that we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Was it worse than you thought it was?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
We knew it was very bad. I'd spoken to some
of the survivors long before I became a government minister.
So we're going back ten years now, and we knew
that it was going to be bad. I guess the volume,
the numbers of people are eyewatering, but but we knew
it was going to be bad. That's why we set
up the Royal Commission, because man, the people involved have
(04:07):
had to fight such a long time just to be believed.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
And as opposition, can you be effective? Can you help
in any way with this? I mean this should be
a united front.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Thing, absolutely, and I think the most effective thing we
can do as opposition. We're obviously not going to be
the ones making the decisions, but the most effective thing
we can do is the opposition is try and take
the politics out of it for the government. So you know,
I've said to Nikola Willison and Christopher Luxe and if
this blows the government's books, so be it. We won't
criticize them for that. They should do the right thing.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Clearly yesterday, and I have to ask you this, the
survivors had a problem with Unigos. She remains as a
Solicitor General given her involvement in abuse and care cases
while in Crown law. I know the answer, but I'm
going to ask you should you still be in the role?
Speaker 3 (04:55):
What I said yesterday was I think that those who
were involved in perpetrating these offenses should absolutely be held accountable.
Those who were involved in covering up should do the
right thing apologize, and the Solicitor General has done that.
As to what further sanction should be there, I'm not
going to pass judgment on individuals because I don't think
(05:17):
that would be appropriate. They're all entitled to have a
process of justice themselves. But I would note that the
Solicitor General ultimately, you know, where does the accountability there rest.
It rests with the government. The Solicitor General implements the
instructions of the government.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Is the second most powerful legal mind in the country.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Who has to implement the decisions of the first. And
you know, ultimately it's the Attorney, Attorney's General and government
ministers who determine what the Crown's strategy is going to
be to this kind of litigation.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Do you think morally that she should still be there?
Is it a good look for the government or for
her still to be there?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Because I've said I'm not going to. I just don't
think it would be right for me to comment on individuals,
but I do think the accountability is important. Okay, do
you think anything will happen, that's really a question for
the government. Okay, would you like to see some As
I've said, not on individual cases, I'm going to avoid that.
I don't think it's fair for me to do that.
(06:14):
But overall, I hear the voice of the survivors saying
that there needs to be some accountability.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, okay, I think we've all heard that. I mean,
what happens now.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
What happens now is you know, I think redress. For
me the two really most important things of redress, so
working with the government, giving the government support to get
that done, and also just changing the system. We can't
have this continue to happen. And we've you.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Reckon that the system has been changed. I mean, this
is what concerns me. I don't believe that the system's
been changed.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
There's been changes, but not enough. And you know, hand
on heart. Can I sit here today and tell you
that this is not still going on in parts of
our care and protection system? No, I can't. And in fact,
I'm pretty certain that there's some horrific stuff happening now
and so we've got to do more.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Wow. I mean that terrifies me.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
It absolutely does. And also let's look at the wider
social consequences of failing to address this as well. You know,
next week we've got the Gang Patch Band coming in.
How did some of the gangs in New Zealand start?
They started with these traumatized kids coming out of being
abused in care. You know, that's part of the reason
we've got a gang problem in New Zealand is that
we as a society turned our backs on these vulnerable
(07:23):
kids and they ended up in gangs. We're all partly
responsible for that.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Next week starts the Gang Patch Band. What's going to happen?
Speaker 3 (07:33):
I mean, look, I hope that they'll be sensible about that.
I think police have got a really tough job and
the idea that they're going to be spending their time,
you know, redressing gang members, I think is that shouldn't
be where their focus is to be.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Frank Okay, the last hour we've been talking about the
Crown Observer and Wellington Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has
appointed former Tasman District Council Chief Executive Lindsay McKenzie as
the Crown Observer for Wellington City Council. Is he the
right choice or is this case of a job for
the boys.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I don't know the person concerned, so I certainly i've
seen the CVS or the cv is today. It looks relevant.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
It does it look like a small town boy to you?
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Though, Well, it looks relevant. I mean experience with local government,
experience with financial management. These are important things, so it
looks relevant to me.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Two days a week. Really can an observer actually look
at a billion I mean, Willington City Council is a
billion dollar organization. Well can an observer look at it
for two days away?
Speaker 3 (08:32):
I think? I mean what I've found, you know, having
been involved in a variety of different organizations with financial
difficulties over the years and in my time in politics.
It will depend on the quality of the information the
observer gets. The quality the information the council can produces
of a high quality, then you can do a lot
in two days. If they find that they're just having
to battle to get the basic information, then it'll take longer.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
What about thousand dollars a day? I didn't think that
was too bad.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
It sounds to me like it's on par with what
other people in some comparable roles will be being paid.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
What do you want to see come the first week
in July after it's been here at that time.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I hope that the council will have a viable long
term plan, a way forward, and I hope that they'll
actually do some reflection during this time as well on
how they manage their relationships across the city. You know,
some of the things that they're doing I agree with.
I'm a cyclist. I like the idea that we're going
to make it safer for cyclists, but man, I think
they've made a hash of some of the relationships on it,
and you know, even some of the design. So I
(09:26):
just think I hope they'll take this time to really
sort of think about how do we bring people with
us when we're making these sorts of changes.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Do you think the decision to bring an observer in
was the right one?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Yeah? On balance overall, I mean Wellington City's I mean,
but I would you have done it? Partly I mentioned
on the current council, there's also reflection on the councils
that have come before. Wellington City has had a pretty
bumpy history over the last couple of decades. If we're
really frank and you know they've got some big challenges.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Ahead, would you have done it if you were Prime
minis I.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Wouldn't say that we wouldn't have I mean, obviously counts
governments get more information on these things than we did,
but I wouldn't say that we wouldn't have done something here.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
So were you pleased to hear as you know you're
a Walingtonian? Would you you know you're on the outsid
skirts or Wellington, but you know Wellington is Wellington.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
I think we're still skirting around the major issues around
Wellington's local government generally. I think you know our local
government in Wellington isn't of the standard that we need
it to be. And that's not just in Wellington City.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Can I just quickly if you liked to see if
you like the idea of an amalgamation of Lower Hut,
Upper Hut potidor in Wellington not that leave the other
ones like Kapiti and Wirapper be themselves. But before around
the basin.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
No, I've got to tell you, you know, if you'd
asked me that question ten fifteen years ago, when I
was early in my career as an MP, I would
have said no, absolutely not. If you asked me that
question now, which you just have, I'd say I'm certainly
open to that conversation. I think it's time for us
to talk about that as Wellingtonians. I don't think local
government in Wellington being fragmented in the way that it
is doing us any favors to be Frank.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Opposition Leader, Labor Leader and Rubatucker MP. CRUs Hipkins in
the studio with us for the next ten ten twelve minutes.
David Seymour's Treaties Bill has been introduced to Parliament slightly
earlier than expecting, and HUKOA is now making its way
down the North Line and expected to ride in Parliament
next week next Tuesday. We believe the bill that has
been introduced with any aspects that actually surprised you or
(11:15):
you thought you could work with or none.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
I mean, I think the bill just sets us back
forty or fifty years. And it's not just me that
thinks that. You know, if you talk to former National
Party ministers, so you know, people who are ministers under
Bulge or under Key or English, they all think it
takes the country backwards as well. We've tried as a
country to put some of the worst aspects of our
past when it comes to the Treaty behind us, and
(11:37):
this just brings them all right back to the surface again.
I think it's a massive leak backwards.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
What do you make of the idea that people are
now saying, why is it? One way? They make it
a conscience vote.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
I'd be fine with it being a conscience vote, because
I know the National MP's are all in the lobbies
neshing and whaling and saying they don't want to support it,
but the prime ministers sign them up to it. If
it was a conscience vote, they could just vote against
it be done with it.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Do you reckon any of your lot would vote for
it if it's a conscience vote.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Not a single one, not a single one. No, No.
I mean everybody's looked at it, and you know, even
people who who might sort of think, you know, there's
there's issues to resolve around the treaty still, which you
know there plenty of people think that. I don't think
no one thinks that this is the answer.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Do you think it's quite a bad look for the government.
This whole part of sort of sitting back waiting for
it and knowing that they're not going.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
To be I think it's a terrible look for the government.
It's also a betrayal of the people who voted for them.
You know, Christopher Luxen said before the election, I was
standing right next to him when he said it multiple
times that he thought David Semos bill was divisive and
that the National Party wouldn't support it. Well, when it
comes to a vote tomorrow, they're going to be supporting it,
and I think that's a betrayal of the people who
voted for them.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
How big they reckon the sea cooy is going to be.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I think it'll be quite substantial, and I think I
think the thing that will probably surprise a lot of
people watching it on the TV news is that there
will be a lot more than just Marty there. I
think you'll find a lot of non Mardi alongside as well,
saying actually, we don't like this either.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
You know, it's funny you should say that because I'm
undecided whether I'll go on the mat Are you thinking
about going on?
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah, I'm going to go down and meet them when
they come to Parliament.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Yeah, but you won't actually go on the March. You've
been doing all this exercise. You can do a little
bit of a.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Working It's right. Look, if an opportunity comes along to
walk with them for a little bit, be happy to
do that. But you know, I think the most important
thing I can do is go and meet them when
they arrive at Parliament.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Are they are you members of Parliament? Are they talking
about it? Are they getting Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Well, so we'll have some MPs on the March. We'll
have MPs meeting them at Parliament. We've got MPs around
the country. You know, there's various sort of side events
if you're like happening around the country, and we've got
our MPs going to as many of those as we
can as well. It's important for us to hear you know.
We we're there to listen and that's what our team
have focused on doing.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
What do you believe this Hekoy could actually achieve?
Speaker 3 (13:44):
I mean, it's certainly going to make the National Party
uncomfortable and an ideal world. It would make the National
Party look at it and go okay, we hear you,
and we're not going to do it. You know, they
said before the election that they weren't going to support it.
I think they should honor that commitment. You know, the
question for Christopher luxe And is what's more important? Has
Dodgy dealings with David Seymour, all the commitments and the
promises he made the New Zealand people, what do you.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Think that they will gain by talking to you? You'll
gain talking to them.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
I think it will be an opportunity for a lot
of Kiwis to say, this isn't us, this isn't New
Zealand anymore. You know, we've come this far, We've actually
been focused on healing these kind of past divisions, and
this takes us backwards. So I think it's an opportunity
for a lot of kew Weis to stand up and say, actually,
the government aren't doing this in my name. You know.
(14:30):
I know pair a few people who over the years
have had, you know, some views on the treaty that
I've disagreed with, but even they are looking at this
and going, actually, this doesn't feel like us, This doesn't
feel like New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Did you, when you sit back and reflect on everything,
do you think that you and your government may have
taken the Marridim thing a little bit too far?
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Look, I think I acknowledge there are some people who
feel that way. You know, there are some people who
feel like we move too far, too fast, and actually
that we also weren't. That we were doing it without
being upfront about it, you know, that we weren't explaining
to people what we were doing, and so I think
that was probably one of our biggest failing. So I
think and some of the things we were doing, we're
trying to do too much all at once.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Or your success yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
And we well, yeah, we were trying to do too
much at once, and we didn't actually bring people along.
And I do think that was the failing of our government,
not just on this but on a number of things.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Actually, what are you going to learn from it?
Speaker 3 (15:22):
I think one of the things you've got to learn
from it is in any term of government, you can't
do everything. You can't do everything all at once, and
you've actually got to be a bit You've got to
be transparent and predictable. So you've got to tell people
before the election what you're going to do and then
you have to stick to it afterwards.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Can you do that?
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Yeah, I do believe you can. I also think you
do need to be upfront with people about what you
don't know though, because a lot can happen in three years,
you know, And so when you're campaigning, don't you don't
have a crystal ball, and you do have to be
a bit upfront with people about the fact that the
facts can change over a three year period.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
But I think your key there is honesty. Yeah, absolutely,
like if it has changed, you actually say, hey, I've
changed this, I'm going to do this this way. These
are the reasons totally.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Look, if you went back to twenty seventeen, I know
this all this will get people livened up. But if
you went back to twenty seventeen and you to me
on that campaign, would you ever contemplate closing the New
Zealand border? I would have laughed. I would have said,
there's absolutely no way we would ever do something that traumatic.
And then COVID came along and we did. So you know,
things change.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Okay, they do change, and talking about change, great segue there,
Thank you. Donald Trump has been elected the next president
of the United States, whether I think a very comprehensive victory.
The Republicans also control the Senate and it's likely to
control the House too. What do you actually make of
these results.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
I think there's a clear message in there. You know,
Donald Trump did win, and he went out right. You know,
this can be no questioning the fact that it was
a legitimate win for Donald Trump. And I think the
message in all of that is that the American people,
particularly in those states, you know, where where there was
some uncertainty, I think they're sending a message to the
establishment as a whole that they're feeling ignored and they're
(16:59):
feeling angry about being ignored, and so they're looking for
someone who's going to shake the system up. And I
don't agree with a lot of Donald Trump's politics, but
I get that that's what people were voting for. They
were voting for someone to be a disruptor.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
I kind of the thing that I took out of it,
if I was sitting in your seat and I'm not
is personality politics?
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Yes and no. I mean, I think there are lot
of people who voted for Donald Trump who actually think
he's got a repugnant personality.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
But that's what I'm saying. But they voted for him
because they thought he could change and make things better exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
So they were voting for him largely as a poke
in the eye to the establishment. You know, there's sorts
of things you'd hear in the States are you know,
we're sick of Wall Street controlling everything. We're sick of
the you know, the elite do it, the elected elite
doing whatever they want and overlooking us. We feel like
we're working really hard, but we're not being recognized for
our hard work those things you know in New zealand's
not immune from some of that ourselves. And so I
(17:49):
think there's a message to democrats around the world. And
by democrats, I don't mean, you know, democrats is in
the party sense in the US. I mean people who
believe in democracy and who think that, you know, that's
the best way forward. There's a message to all of
us that we need to make sure that the democratic
system is something people can have faith in.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
What do you think it's going to do to New
Zealand trade?
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Look, it won't be good for trade around the world.
I mean, if Donald Trump does wack on you know, ten, fifteen,
twenty percent tariffs, then that's going to have a global
trade effect and it's going to push the prices up
potentially of stuff all around the world.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
What about Pillar two of August does that Trump presidency
change any of that. I kind of feel that it might.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
I've always been very skeptical about New Zealand joining Pillar too.
I've always said, you know, in government, I always said
that we should be open to a conversation about.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
What person that your government had actually got it all going.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
No, Well, we said that we should understand what is
in Pillar two. That was as far as we went.
And I've never sort of said that we should join it.
I said we should understand what's in it. I'm very
skeptical about whether there's anything in it for New Zealand
and I do think there's a real risk to us,
in this volatile world that we live in, of being
too closely aligned with the US or with China. I
think we've got to continue to, you know, be New Zealand.
(19:01):
We've got to be independent.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Do you think we need to look elsewhere apart from China?
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Of course, like we should have a diverse range of
international relationships, particularly on trade. You know, we should never
put all our eggs in one basket. We should have
learned from the experience of the UK joining the European
Union that this is a bad thing for us to do,
and we've we've kind of, to some extent, you know,
over a period of several decades, replaced the UK with China.
And I don't think that that's the right solution. I
(19:26):
think we've got to trade with a range of countries.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Harder to do than exactly.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
And I look, all the financial incentives in the last
couple of decades have been for New Zealand exporters to
basically send all this stuff to China. And so I
finished following the money basically.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Of course, and during hard times, what else would you do?
I mean, we're in the world's in a tough place,
so it's easy money. It's easy money, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Let's finish by asking you about Rumatuka. What's the what
are getting up people's noses? And Rumatucka, what's happening? Stock
cars are back on, so you know, the brewery stuff
out there is going crazy. So what what's your your gripe?
Speaker 3 (20:01):
I mean, I think public service cuts and Wellington cuts
have have kind of had an impact on Upper Hut
and the Remattucka and Lower Hut as well, and so
that's you know, I guess that's front of mine for
a lot of people. There's you know, Wellington, the Wellington
region is sort of right at the forefront of the
country's economic downturn, and you know, the constituents I aspect
you certainly are feeling that, even the ones who are
(20:22):
still working. You know, if you talk to retailers, they're
really feeling the pinch. Hospo business is really feeling the pinch.
You know. I think that would be front and center
for a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Thank you very much for joining us this morning on
Wellington Mornings, and have a great trip. Are you down
to Queenstown tomorrow?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I am down to Queenstown tomorrow. I'm hoping that whether
it will be all right.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I'm sure it'll be fine, but hey, you know, but
you're a Queen's own doesn't matter exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
It's a beautiful place.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
It is a very beautiful place, and I don't think
it's affected by any weather conditions. Thank you for joining
us this morning of a great rest of the week.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news Talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said, b.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Join us now as promised Labor leader, Opposition leader and
MP for Romatucker Risipkins.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Coming Chris today, How are you going?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Nice walk down here from Parliament? I just you just
told me that you walked down here.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
It was a very nice walk. Actually quite hot out
there today. Let's hope that the summers finally arrived. Although
I've just heard the forecast it doesn't sound like it's
going to last.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
But you went on I saw the other day in
the media that you went for a five k run
and you said, yesterday you rode to work. Is this
a summer summer Chrissipkins.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yeah, well I've still got all those sausage rolls from
last year to wear off. But no, I first time
I've done a sort of competitive running race. I mean,
not that I was competitive. And then yesterday bike to
work thirty k's from Upper to Wellington.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Is that fitness a big thing for you?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Yeah, something that I've got to work on, you know,
Like I've been fit when I was about ten kilos
lighter before I became Prime Minister. So I've I've still
got that extra weight that I put on last year
to shake off. So I'm hoping over the summer to
make a bit of progress on that.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Well, good start, five k run, thirty k bike ride
and a walk down from Parliament to news talks, there'd
be well into the mornings.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Exactly what perfect way to start the week?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Okay, right? Yesterday was not the perfect day to start
the week, really was it. Yesterday the government formally apologized
to victims of abuse, which you also have to pay
your pardon in state care, something thousands of victims have
waited decades for. But the apology came with no redress
or compensation, which the government says are still working on. Firstly,
(01:36):
I want to ask you how did you feel the
apology went yesterday?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I mean, I think it was always going to be
a really difficult to apology because the abuse in state
here we're talking about probably two hundred and fifty thousand people,
and there are going to be different issues for all
of them, and so that's always going to be challenging
to try and make sure that we recognize everybody and
that we recognize their truth. And so you know, that
was always going to be a very challenging day, and
(02:02):
we certainly heard a lot of feedback from the survivors
yesterday as well. I think you're right on redress. You know,
they're waiting for that. They've been waiting a long time
for that. And what I said to the government yesterday
was let's get on with it. I don't want to
make this into a political football. I want the government
to do the right thing, and I've told them that
if they do do the right thing, that we will
be one hundred percent behind them.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Do you think that it actually was a little bit
hollow without something, I mean, just some sort of regress
even saying, hey, we're going to investigate a couple of
people that we know did the wrong thing. They're going
to do this, Just something to give them a little
tease of it.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's important that we get
it right, but we need to get it right quickly.
I just don't think, you know, we can't waste another
day that people involved have fought so long and hard.
It's well and truly time that they got the justice
that they've been fighting for.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Have you had any discussions with the government on this,
I mean, how much are they going to get paid?
How long they had to be in you know, and
locked up, How much abuse did they have to have.
Is it going to be some sort of determining factor
of how they dish it all out.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
No, they haven't spoken to us about that. Obviously, there's
an open invitation for them to do that at any point,
but been pretty clear that you know, we're going to
be as supportive as possible here. You know, it's going
to be a big amount of money if they do
it right. If you look around the world, other countries
have grappled with us. If you do it right, it's
not cheap, but nor should we be aiming to cut
(03:20):
costs here.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
You would have been in government when knowing this was impeding.
You know, you knew it was coming absolutely, you know,
and you know you must have had some idea where
the compensation was going to lie, have.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
You, Yeah, No, I didn't. I never got a number
like I never got an indication of what the quantum
might be. Part of the reason was the final report
of the Royal Commission, I guess was needed to really
reveal the true extent of the abuse that we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Was it worse than you thought it was?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
We knew it was very bad. I'd spoken to some
of the survivors long before I became a government minister.
So we're going back ten years now, and we knew
that it was going to be bad. I guess the volume,
the numbers of people are eyewatering, but but we knew
it was going to be bad. That's why we set
up the Royal Commission, because man, the people involved have
(04:07):
had to fight such a long time just to be believed.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
And as opposition, can you be effective? Can you help
in any way with this? I mean this should be
a united front.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Thing, absolutely, and I think the most effective thing we
can do as opposition. We're obviously not going to be
the ones making the decisions, but the most effective thing
we can do is the opposition is try and take
the politics out of it for the government. So you know,
I've said to Nikola Willison and Christopher Luxe and if
this blows the government's books, so be it. We won't
criticize them for that. They should do the right thing.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Clearly yesterday, and I have to ask you this, the
survivors had a problem with Unigos. She remains as a
Solicitor General given her involvement in abuse and care cases
while in Crown law. I know the answer, but I'm
going to ask you should you still be in the role?
Speaker 3 (04:55):
What I said yesterday was I think that those who
were involved in perpetrating these offenses should absolutely be held accountable.
Those who were involved in covering up should do the
right thing apologize, and the Solicitor General has done that.
As to what further sanction should be there, I'm not
going to pass judgment on individuals because I don't think
(05:17):
that would be appropriate. They're all entitled to have a
process of justice themselves. But I would note that the
Solicitor General ultimately, you know, where does the accountability there rest.
It rests with the government. The Solicitor General implements the
instructions of the government.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Is the second most powerful legal mind in the country.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Who has to implement the decisions of the first. And
you know, ultimately it's the Attorney, Attorney's General and government
ministers who determine what the Crown's strategy is going to
be to this kind of litigation.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Do you think morally that she should still be there?
Is it a good look for the government or for
her still to be there?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Because I've said I'm not going to. I just don't
think it would be right for me to comment on individuals,
but I do think the accountability is important. Okay, do
you think anything will happen, that's really a question for
the government. Okay, would you like to see some As
I've said, not on individual cases, I'm going to avoid that.
I don't think it's fair for me to do that.
(06:14):
But overall, I hear the voice of the survivors saying
that there needs to be some accountability.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, okay, I think we've all heard that. I mean,
what happens now.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
What happens now is you know, I think redress. For
me the two really most important things of redress, so
working with the government, giving the government support to get
that done, and also just changing the system. We can't
have this continue to happen. And we've you.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Reckon that the system has been changed. I mean, this
is what concerns me. I don't believe that the system's
been changed.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
There's been changes, but not enough. And you know, hand
on heart. Can I sit here today and tell you
that this is not still going on in parts of
our care and protection system? No, I can't. And in fact,
I'm pretty certain that there's some horrific stuff happening now
and so we've got to do more.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Wow. I mean that terrifies me.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
It absolutely does. And also let's look at the wider
social consequences of failing to address this as well. You know,
next week we've got the Gang Patch Band coming in.
How did some of the gangs in New Zealand start?
They started with these traumatized kids coming out of being
abused in care. You know, that's part of the reason
we've got a gang problem in New Zealand is that
we as a society turned our backs on these vulnerable
(07:23):
kids and they ended up in gangs. We're all partly
responsible for that.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Next week starts the Gang Patch Band. What's going to happen?
Speaker 3 (07:33):
I mean, look, I hope that they'll be sensible about that.
I think police have got a really tough job and
the idea that they're going to be spending their time,
you know, redressing gang members, I think is that shouldn't
be where their focus is to be.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Frank Okay, the last hour we've been talking about the
Crown Observer and Wellington Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has
appointed former Tasman District Council Chief Executive Lindsay McKenzie as
the Crown Observer for Wellington City Council. Is he the
right choice or is this case of a job for
the boys.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I don't know the person concerned, so I certainly i've
seen the CVS or the cv is today. It looks relevant.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
It does it look like a small town boy to you?
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Though, Well, it looks relevant. I mean experience with local government,
experience with financial management. These are important things, so it
looks relevant to me.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Two days a week. Really can an observer actually look
at a billion I mean, Willington City Council is a
billion dollar organization. Well can an observer look at it
for two days away?
Speaker 3 (08:32):
I think? I mean what I've found, you know, having
been involved in a variety of different organizations with financial
difficulties over the years and in my time in politics.
It will depend on the quality of the information the
observer gets. The quality the information the council can produces
of a high quality, then you can do a lot
in two days. If they find that they're just having
to battle to get the basic information, then it'll take longer.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
What about thousand dollars a day? I didn't think that
was too bad.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
It sounds to me like it's on par with what
other people in some comparable roles will be being paid.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
What do you want to see come the first week
in July after it's been here at that time.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I hope that the council will have a viable long
term plan, a way forward, and I hope that they'll
actually do some reflection during this time as well on
how they manage their relationships across the city. You know,
some of the things that they're doing I agree with.
I'm a cyclist. I like the idea that we're going
to make it safer for cyclists, but man, I think
they've made a hash of some of the relationships on it,
and you know, even some of the design. So I
(09:26):
just think I hope they'll take this time to really
sort of think about how do we bring people with
us when we're making these sorts of changes.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Do you think the decision to bring an observer in
was the right one?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Yeah? On balance overall, I mean Wellington City's I mean,
but I would you have done it? Partly I mentioned
on the current council, there's also reflection on the councils
that have come before. Wellington City has had a pretty
bumpy history over the last couple of decades. If we're
really frank and you know they've got some big challenges.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Ahead, would you have done it if you were Prime
minis I.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Wouldn't say that we wouldn't have I mean, obviously counts
governments get more information on these things than we did,
but I wouldn't say that we wouldn't have done something here.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
So were you pleased to hear as you know you're
a Walingtonian? Would you you know you're on the outsid
skirts or Wellington, but you know Wellington is Wellington.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
I think we're still skirting around the major issues around
Wellington's local government generally. I think you know our local
government in Wellington isn't of the standard that we need
it to be. And that's not just in Wellington City.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Can I just quickly if you liked to see if
you like the idea of an amalgamation of Lower Hut,
Upper Hut potidor in Wellington not that leave the other
ones like Kapiti and Wirapper be themselves. But before around
the basin.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
No, I've got to tell you, you know, if you'd
asked me that question ten fifteen years ago, when I
was early in my career as an MP, I would
have said no, absolutely not. If you asked me that
question now, which you just have, I'd say I'm certainly
open to that conversation. I think it's time for us
to talk about that as Wellingtonians. I don't think local
government in Wellington being fragmented in the way that it
is doing us any favors to be Frank.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Opposition Leader, Labor Leader and Rubatucker MP. CRUs Hipkins in
the studio with us for the next ten ten twelve minutes.
David Seymour's Treaties Bill has been introduced to Parliament slightly
earlier than expecting, and HUKOA is now making its way
down the North Line and expected to ride in Parliament
next week next Tuesday. We believe the bill that has
been introduced with any aspects that actually surprised you or
(11:15):
you thought you could work with or none.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
I mean, I think the bill just sets us back
forty or fifty years. And it's not just me that
thinks that. You know, if you talk to former National
Party ministers, so you know, people who are ministers under
Bulge or under Key or English, they all think it
takes the country backwards as well. We've tried as a
country to put some of the worst aspects of our
past when it comes to the Treaty behind us, and
(11:37):
this just brings them all right back to the surface again.
I think it's a massive leak backwards.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
What do you make of the idea that people are
now saying, why is it? One way? They make it
a conscience vote.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
I'd be fine with it being a conscience vote, because
I know the National MP's are all in the lobbies
neshing and whaling and saying they don't want to support it,
but the prime ministers sign them up to it. If
it was a conscience vote, they could just vote against
it be done with it.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Do you reckon any of your lot would vote for
it if it's a conscience vote.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Not a single one, not a single one. No, No.
I mean everybody's looked at it, and you know, even
people who who might sort of think, you know, there's
there's issues to resolve around the treaty still, which you
know there plenty of people think that. I don't think
no one thinks that this is the answer.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Do you think it's quite a bad look for the government.
This whole part of sort of sitting back waiting for
it and knowing that they're not going.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
To be I think it's a terrible look for the government.
It's also a betrayal of the people who voted for them.
You know, Christopher Luxen said before the election, I was
standing right next to him when he said it multiple
times that he thought David Semos bill was divisive and
that the National Party wouldn't support it. Well, when it
comes to a vote tomorrow, they're going to be supporting it,
and I think that's a betrayal of the people who
voted for them.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
How big they reckon the sea cooy is going to be.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I think it'll be quite substantial, and I think I
think the thing that will probably surprise a lot of
people watching it on the TV news is that there
will be a lot more than just Marty there. I
think you'll find a lot of non Mardi alongside as well,
saying actually, we don't like this either.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
You know, it's funny you should say that because I'm
undecided whether I'll go on the mat Are you thinking
about going on?
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah, I'm going to go down and meet them when
they come to Parliament.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Yeah, but you won't actually go on the March. You've
been doing all this exercise. You can do a little
bit of a.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Working It's right. Look, if an opportunity comes along to
walk with them for a little bit, be happy to
do that. But you know, I think the most important
thing I can do is go and meet them when
they arrive at Parliament.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Are they are you members of Parliament? Are they talking
about it? Are they getting Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Well, so we'll have some MPs on the March. We'll
have MPs meeting them at Parliament. We've got MPs around
the country. You know, there's various sort of side events
if you're like happening around the country, and we've got
our MPs going to as many of those as we
can as well. It's important for us to hear you know.
We we're there to listen and that's what our team
have focused on doing.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
What do you believe this Hekoy could actually achieve?
Speaker 3 (13:44):
I mean, it's certainly going to make the National Party
uncomfortable and an ideal world. It would make the National
Party look at it and go okay, we hear you,
and we're not going to do it. You know, they
said before the election that they weren't going to support it.
I think they should honor that commitment. You know, the
question for Christopher luxe And is what's more important? Has
Dodgy dealings with David Seymour, all the commitments and the
promises he made the New Zealand people, what do you.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Think that they will gain by talking to you? You'll
gain talking to them.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
I think it will be an opportunity for a lot
of Kiwis to say, this isn't us, this isn't New
Zealand anymore. You know, we've come this far, We've actually
been focused on healing these kind of past divisions, and
this takes us backwards. So I think it's an opportunity
for a lot of kew Weis to stand up and say, actually,
the government aren't doing this in my name. You know.
(14:30):
I know pair a few people who over the years
have had, you know, some views on the treaty that
I've disagreed with, but even they are looking at this
and going, actually, this doesn't feel like us, This doesn't
feel like New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Did you, when you sit back and reflect on everything,
do you think that you and your government may have
taken the Marridim thing a little bit too far?
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Look, I think I acknowledge there are some people who
feel that way. You know, there are some people who
feel like we move too far, too fast, and actually
that we also weren't. That we were doing it without
being upfront about it, you know, that we weren't explaining
to people what we were doing, and so I think
that was probably one of our biggest failing. So I
think and some of the things we were doing, we're
trying to do too much all at once.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Or your success yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
And we well, yeah, we were trying to do too
much at once, and we didn't actually bring people along.
And I do think that was the failing of our government,
not just on this but on a number of things.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Actually, what are you going to learn from it?
Speaker 3 (15:22):
I think one of the things you've got to learn
from it is in any term of government, you can't
do everything. You can't do everything all at once, and
you've actually got to be a bit You've got to
be transparent and predictable. So you've got to tell people
before the election what you're going to do and then
you have to stick to it afterwards.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Can you do that?
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Yeah, I do believe you can. I also think you
do need to be upfront with people about what you
don't know though, because a lot can happen in three years,
you know, And so when you're campaigning, don't you don't
have a crystal ball, and you do have to be
a bit upfront with people about the fact that the
facts can change over a three year period.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
But I think your key there is honesty. Yeah, absolutely,
like if it has changed, you actually say, hey, I've
changed this, I'm going to do this this way. These
are the reasons totally.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Look, if you went back to twenty seventeen, I know
this all this will get people livened up. But if
you went back to twenty seventeen and you to me
on that campaign, would you ever contemplate closing the New
Zealand border? I would have laughed. I would have said,
there's absolutely no way we would ever do something that traumatic.
And then COVID came along and we did. So you know,
things change.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Okay, they do change, and talking about change, great segue there,
Thank you. Donald Trump has been elected the next president
of the United States, whether I think a very comprehensive victory.
The Republicans also control the Senate and it's likely to
control the House too. What do you actually make of
these results.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
I think there's a clear message in there. You know,
Donald Trump did win, and he went out right. You know,
this can be no questioning the fact that it was
a legitimate win for Donald Trump. And I think the
message in all of that is that the American people,
particularly in those states, you know, where where there was
some uncertainty, I think they're sending a message to the
establishment as a whole that they're feeling ignored and they're
(16:59):
feeling angry about being ignored, and so they're looking for
someone who's going to shake the system up. And I
don't agree with a lot of Donald Trump's politics, but
I get that that's what people were voting for. They
were voting for someone to be a disruptor.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
I kind of the thing that I took out of it,
if I was sitting in your seat and I'm not
is personality politics?
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Yes and no. I mean, I think there are lot
of people who voted for Donald Trump who actually think
he's got a repugnant personality.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
But that's what I'm saying. But they voted for him
because they thought he could change and make things better exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
So they were voting for him largely as a poke
in the eye to the establishment. You know, there's sorts
of things you'd hear in the States are you know,
we're sick of Wall Street controlling everything. We're sick of
the you know, the elite do it, the elected elite
doing whatever they want and overlooking us. We feel like
we're working really hard, but we're not being recognized for
our hard work those things you know in New zealand's
not immune from some of that ourselves. And so I
(17:49):
think there's a message to democrats around the world. And
by democrats, I don't mean, you know, democrats is in
the party sense in the US. I mean people who
believe in democracy and who think that, you know, that's
the best way forward. There's a message to all of
us that we need to make sure that the democratic
system is something people can have faith in.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
What do you think it's going to do to New
Zealand trade?
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Look, it won't be good for trade around the world.
I mean, if Donald Trump does wack on you know, ten, fifteen,
twenty percent tariffs, then that's going to have a global
trade effect and it's going to push the prices up
potentially of stuff all around the world.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
What about Pillar two of August does that Trump presidency
change any of that. I kind of feel that it might.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
I've always been very skeptical about New Zealand joining Pillar too.
I've always said, you know, in government, I always said
that we should be open to a conversation about.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
What person that your government had actually got it all going.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
No, Well, we said that we should understand what is
in Pillar two. That was as far as we went.
And I've never sort of said that we should join it.
I said we should understand what's in it. I'm very
skeptical about whether there's anything in it for New Zealand
and I do think there's a real risk to us,
in this volatile world that we live in, of being
too closely aligned with the US or with China. I
think we've got to continue to, you know, be New Zealand.
(19:01):
We've got to be independent.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Do you think we need to look elsewhere apart from China?
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Of course, like we should have a diverse range of
international relationships, particularly on trade. You know, we should never
put all our eggs in one basket. We should have
learned from the experience of the UK joining the European
Union that this is a bad thing for us to do,
and we've we've kind of, to some extent, you know,
over a period of several decades, replaced the UK with China.
And I don't think that that's the right solution. I
(19:26):
think we've got to trade with a range of countries.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Harder to do than exactly.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
And I look, all the financial incentives in the last
couple of decades have been for New Zealand exporters to
basically send all this stuff to China. And so I
finished following the money basically.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Of course, and during hard times, what else would you do?
I mean, we're in the world's in a tough place,
so it's easy money. It's easy money, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Let's finish by asking you about Rumatuka. What's the what
are getting up people's noses? And Rumatucka, what's happening? Stock
cars are back on, so you know, the brewery stuff
out there is going crazy. So what what's your your gripe?
Speaker 3 (20:01):
I mean, I think public service cuts and Wellington cuts
have have kind of had an impact on Upper Hut
and the Remattucka and Lower Hut as well, and so
that's you know, I guess that's front of mine for
a lot of people. There's you know, Wellington, the Wellington
region is sort of right at the forefront of the
country's economic downturn, and you know, the constituents I aspect
you certainly are feeling that, even the ones who are
(20:22):
still working. You know, if you talk to retailers, they're
really feeling the pinch. Hospo business is really feeling the pinch.
You know. I think that would be front and center
for a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Thank you very much for joining us this morning on
Wellington Mornings, and have a great trip. Are you down
to Queenstown tomorrow?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I am down to Queenstown tomorrow. I'm hoping that whether
it will be all right.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I'm sure it'll be fine, but hey, you know, but
you're a Queen's own doesn't matter exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
It's a beautiful place.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
It is a very beautiful place, and I don't think
it's affected by any weather conditions. Thank you for joining
us this morning of a great rest of the week.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news Talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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