July 29, 2025 • 7 mins
The number of gang members in New Zealand has surpassed 10,000 for the first time - now sitting at 10,009 according to the National Gang List.
That compares to 9270 just before the 2023 election, and 5343 gang members in 2017.
So what's needed to stop the gangs growing, and has banning gang patches made any material difference to recruitment?
Police Minister Mark Mitchell joined Nick Mills to discuss the numbers.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk SAIDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Police Minister Mark Mitchell joins the show.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Good morning Mark, Nick.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I'm really good, but I'm kind of a little bit concerned.
Your job is to get five hundreds. Let me let
me ask the question first. Your job is to get
five hundred more police. Your prime ministers saying you're smashing
the gangs. Yet their numbers have increased by seven hundred
since you've taken office and you haven't got us to
five hundred cops, so eventually they can to outnumber you.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
Well, the first one is the gang so the rate
of gang members coming onto the gang list is slowing down,
without a doubt. You don't turn around an awful government
with terrible policies that saw a huge increase in gangs
and acting with impunity in the community. Overnight we've been
in eighteen months. I'm really proud of the police that
the work the police are doing. They've stood up gang
(00:58):
disruption units. They've taken down the common heiros in the
South End. They've taken down the barbarian Mungol mobs in
a Podo key. They just took their the Hell's Angels
want Nui. The greasy dogs over in the Bay of Planey.
They are hammering the gangs, they are dealing to them,
and I completely reject the silly academic attitude that, oh,
they don't have their patches on, so now we don't
(01:19):
know who they are.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
That is ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
The patches are gone because they're used to intimidate members
of the public. They earned the right to wear them
because they showed that they had a propensity for violence,
They're willing to hurt people, and they're gone, and people
need no longer need to put up with that intimidation.
In fact, I had some feedback recently from staff at
the Gibsbon Hospital to say, not only do our staff
and patients no longer have to put up with the
intimidation of those gang patures, it has de escalated the
(01:45):
behavior of gang members because they're not having this. They're
not staunching up when they put their game patures on.
So I make no apology for that at all. Okay,
I think it's been extremely effective for the police are
loving it, and the police still know their intelligence tools
who gang members are and are still targeting them, are
still taking them down.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Okay, at the time that you announced this, I see
from somebody that has worked all their lives on the streets, right,
so I know what goes on. I have said, this
is not going to make any difference whatsoever. The gang
members will still join. It's just that me and you
walking down the street will not know who we're dealing with.
So let me I'm that so called I'm not an academic,
(02:24):
but I'm a so called member of the public, and.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I believe that.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I believe that it's made no difference. I really don't.
I mean, yes, yes, I might be able to walk
down certain streets and not see gang members with patches on,
but they're still there.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
That well, no, that that's the whole point is the
public aren't seeing gang members now because they're not strutting
around in their gang pictures trying to intimidate people. That's
a good thing that the public aren't exposed to that.
It's a good thing that the public don't know who
gang members are. It's a good thing that the police do.
And they're still hammering and they're still targeting them. Yes,
I don't want any gang members in New Zealand. It's
(03:02):
bad for them.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
It's bad for the ones that have families, and it's.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Really bad for society because they're disproportionately responsible for a
lot of the violent crime that we have in this country.
The meth problem drives all of those sort of issues, right,
And the police are doing the outstanding job and targeting
and hitting them hard after six years of them operating
with impunity in a very permissive environment. And how many
times have you seen a provincial town taken over by
(03:26):
gangs in the last eighteen months. How many times have
you seen gang convoys getting out of control? The police
are doing a bloody good.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Job of clemping down on them. Martin. The government was.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Mark, I get it that you're doing a great job.
I get it, but you can't tell me that seven
hundred extra gang members since you've been in Parliament is
smashing the gangs. Now. You might be getting them and
you might be knocking them over one by one, but
the numbers are increasing. And you know as well as
I do that drug testing in the waters are telling
us that meth's going nuts. So I mean, we've got
(04:00):
to remain with facts here. I know that you're smashings.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Yeah, not solicen on not for one minute the most
saying that in eighteen months we're going to turn around
the problem that we inherit it. It's not going to happen,
it's to be it's going to take time. But we're
tracking in the right direction. The police are tracking in
the right direction without a doubt, and the growth in
those numbers going on to that gang list is slowing down.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Mark, how can you tell me that you're tracking the
right direction. We've got seven hundred more members of gangs.
How can you explain, now, I don't. I know, I'm
not the smartest guy in the world, and you're a
lot cleverer than me, But you can't explain that to me.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
No, I don't worry. I get I'm a next dog handler,
so don't worry about that. I don't certainly don't get
praised for being more intelligent than you. But one thing
that I'd say is this, if you look at the numbers,
the rate of gang members coming onto that game list,
people join the gangs is reducing. It's not growing, So
it's heading in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
How can you say that we've got seven hundred more
and we're up to ten thousand. We've never had that.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Before Because Under the Labor government it was growing at
one point eight members a day, and under this government
that's been in eighteen months, it has grown at one
point two. That slow and growth anyone's measure, So it's slowing.
That's the point that I'm making. You want me to
overnight to turn the tap off, and so that's not realistic.
That is not going to happen. But we're putting enormous
(05:21):
pressure on the gangs. It's becoming that's obviously becoming less
desirable to join a gang because that pipeline of people
coming into the gangs are starting to slow down. The
growth is slowing, so it is becoming more difficult to
come and to become a gag member in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
We want that.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
But if you think we're going to turn the tap
off overnight, that is not going to happen. We've got
six years of poor policy baked in that we're turning
around and the police are doing an outstanding job and
they're starting to do that and I would like people
to recognize the upstanding work that they're doing.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Normal politicians or anyone else, the outstanding work that they
are doing. They made no question going to the gangs.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
No question that the police are doing an outstanding job.
We don't We're not here. We're not having an argument
about New Zealand police force and the best in the world.
And I agree with you, right yeah, But I want
to know that if I can have this conversation this
time next year, I'm going to put it in my
diary that you are going to reduce the number of
gangs members? Do you reckon you can get it down?
Because okay, you might have slowed it down, but to me,
seven hundred in a couple of years as still one
(06:20):
hell of a lot of gang members.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Well, I'm glad that you acknowledge that we've slowed it down,
because we are and I would like to see no
gang members in New Zealand. You know that that's not realistic.
It's never going to happen because we've always had gangs.
We've always had people that do bad things. But we
are trying to deal with that. The targets that we've
set is a reduction in victims and victimizations. That is
the target we've set as a government and that is
(06:42):
what we're aiming for and that's what I'd like us
to be judged on because we have put victims back
at the heart of what we're doing. On the Minister
of Corrections, we've seen a massive increase in people coming
into Corrections that quite simply is making sure that we're
transferring the risk and the harm out of the community
into some way where we can control these people, try
(07:03):
and rehabilitate them, and try and get them back and
reintegrate in a positive way.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Mark, Mark, I've got to go, Mark, Mark, I've got
to go because I've got news headlines and I'm getting
yelled at to go to head Always great to talk
to you. I really appreciate the fact that you come
on the show and your front and much respect and
I hope that you when we talk next time the
numbers are coming down and I can pat you on
the back as well.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah, thanks man, I appreciate it all.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Right, Mark Mitchell, Police Minister.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
There For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen
live to news Talks Here'd Be Wellington from nine to
am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk SAIDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Police Minister Mark Mitchell joins the show.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Good morning Mark, Nick.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I'm really good, but I'm kind of a little bit concerned.
Your job is to get five hundreds. Let me let
me ask the question first. Your job is to get
five hundred more police. Your prime ministers saying you're smashing
the gangs. Yet their numbers have increased by seven hundred
since you've taken office and you haven't got us to
five hundred cops, so eventually they can to outnumber you.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
Well, the first one is the gang so the rate
of gang members coming onto the gang list is slowing down,
without a doubt. You don't turn around an awful government
with terrible policies that saw a huge increase in gangs
and acting with impunity in the community. Overnight we've been
in eighteen months. I'm really proud of the police that
the work the police are doing. They've stood up gang
(00:58):
disruption units. They've taken down the common heiros in the
South End. They've taken down the barbarian Mungol mobs in
a Podo key. They just took their the Hell's Angels
want Nui. The greasy dogs over in the Bay of Planey.
They are hammering the gangs, they are dealing to them,
and I completely reject the silly academic attitude that, oh,
they don't have their patches on, so now we don't
(01:19):
know who they are.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
That is ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
The patches are gone because they're used to intimidate members
of the public. They earned the right to wear them
because they showed that they had a propensity for violence,
They're willing to hurt people, and they're gone, and people
need no longer need to put up with that intimidation.
In fact, I had some feedback recently from staff at
the Gibsbon Hospital to say, not only do our staff
and patients no longer have to put up with the
intimidation of those gang patures, it has de escalated the
(01:45):
behavior of gang members because they're not having this. They're
not staunching up when they put their game patures on.
So I make no apology for that at all. Okay,
I think it's been extremely effective for the police are
loving it, and the police still know their intelligence tools
who gang members are and are still targeting them, are
still taking them down.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Okay, at the time that you announced this, I see
from somebody that has worked all their lives on the streets, right,
so I know what goes on. I have said, this
is not going to make any difference whatsoever. The gang
members will still join. It's just that me and you
walking down the street will not know who we're dealing with.
So let me I'm that so called I'm not an academic,
(02:24):
but I'm a so called member of the public, and.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I believe that.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I believe that it's made no difference. I really don't.
I mean, yes, yes, I might be able to walk
down certain streets and not see gang members with patches on,
but they're still there.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
That well, no, that that's the whole point is the
public aren't seeing gang members now because they're not strutting
around in their gang pictures trying to intimidate people. That's
a good thing that the public aren't exposed to that.
It's a good thing that the public don't know who
gang members are. It's a good thing that the police do.
And they're still hammering and they're still targeting them. Yes,
I don't want any gang members in New Zealand. It's
(03:02):
bad for them.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
It's bad for the ones that have families, and it's.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Really bad for society because they're disproportionately responsible for a
lot of the violent crime that we have in this country.
The meth problem drives all of those sort of issues, right,
And the police are doing the outstanding job and targeting
and hitting them hard after six years of them operating
with impunity in a very permissive environment. And how many
times have you seen a provincial town taken over by
(03:26):
gangs in the last eighteen months. How many times have
you seen gang convoys getting out of control? The police
are doing a bloody good.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Job of clemping down on them. Martin. The government was.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Mark, I get it that you're doing a great job.
I get it, but you can't tell me that seven
hundred extra gang members since you've been in Parliament is
smashing the gangs. Now. You might be getting them and
you might be knocking them over one by one, but
the numbers are increasing. And you know as well as
I do that drug testing in the waters are telling
us that meth's going nuts. So I mean, we've got
(04:00):
to remain with facts here. I know that you're smashings.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Yeah, not solicen on not for one minute the most
saying that in eighteen months we're going to turn around
the problem that we inherit it. It's not going to happen,
it's to be it's going to take time. But we're
tracking in the right direction. The police are tracking in
the right direction without a doubt, and the growth in
those numbers going on to that gang list is slowing down.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Mark, how can you tell me that you're tracking the
right direction. We've got seven hundred more members of gangs.
How can you explain, now, I don't. I know, I'm
not the smartest guy in the world, and you're a
lot cleverer than me, But you can't explain that to me.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
No, I don't worry. I get I'm a next dog handler,
so don't worry about that. I don't certainly don't get
praised for being more intelligent than you. But one thing
that I'd say is this, if you look at the numbers,
the rate of gang members coming onto that game list,
people join the gangs is reducing. It's not growing, So
it's heading in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
How can you say that we've got seven hundred more
and we're up to ten thousand. We've never had that.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Before Because Under the Labor government it was growing at
one point eight members a day, and under this government
that's been in eighteen months, it has grown at one
point two. That slow and growth anyone's measure, So it's slowing.
That's the point that I'm making. You want me to
overnight to turn the tap off, and so that's not realistic.
That is not going to happen. But we're putting enormous
(05:21):
pressure on the gangs. It's becoming that's obviously becoming less
desirable to join a gang because that pipeline of people
coming into the gangs are starting to slow down. The
growth is slowing, so it is becoming more difficult to
come and to become a gag member in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
We want that.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
But if you think we're going to turn the tap
off overnight, that is not going to happen. We've got
six years of poor policy baked in that we're turning
around and the police are doing an outstanding job and
they're starting to do that and I would like people
to recognize the upstanding work that they're doing.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Normal politicians or anyone else, the outstanding work that they
are doing. They made no question going to the gangs.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
No question that the police are doing an outstanding job.
We don't We're not here. We're not having an argument
about New Zealand police force and the best in the world.
And I agree with you, right yeah, But I want
to know that if I can have this conversation this
time next year, I'm going to put it in my
diary that you are going to reduce the number of
gangs members? Do you reckon you can get it down?
Because okay, you might have slowed it down, but to me,
seven hundred in a couple of years as still one
(06:20):
hell of a lot of gang members.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Well, I'm glad that you acknowledge that we've slowed it down,
because we are and I would like to see no
gang members in New Zealand. You know that that's not realistic.
It's never going to happen because we've always had gangs.
We've always had people that do bad things. But we
are trying to deal with that. The targets that we've
set is a reduction in victims and victimizations. That is
the target we've set as a government and that is
(06:42):
what we're aiming for and that's what I'd like us
to be judged on because we have put victims back
at the heart of what we're doing. On the Minister
of Corrections, we've seen a massive increase in people coming
into Corrections that quite simply is making sure that we're
transferring the risk and the harm out of the community
into some way where we can control these people, try
(07:03):
and rehabilitate them, and try and get them back and
reintegrate in a positive way.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Mark, Mark, I've got to go, Mark, Mark, I've got
to go because I've got news headlines and I'm getting
yelled at to go to head Always great to talk
to you. I really appreciate the fact that you come
on the show and your front and much respect and
I hope that you when we talk next time the
numbers are coming down and I can pat you on
the back as well.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah, thanks man, I appreciate it all.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Right, Mark Mitchell, Police Minister.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
There For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen
live to news Talks Here'd Be Wellington from nine to
am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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