September 10, 2025 • 21 mins
On Politics Thursday, Nick was joined by Labour's Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall and National's Otaki MP Tim Costley.
They discussed the new Government proposal for a new infringement offence for shoplifting, the annual net migration continuing to fall, and some harrowing statistics around care in Wellington Hospital's Emergency Department.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
At B Politics Thursday. Today we have Labour's Health in
Wellington's issue spokesperson I Shaverraal, Good morning.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I Shark morning neck.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Oh, there's a lot of issues in Wellington right now.
So you've got a pretty busy job, haven't you. Are
you being involved in the council elections and stuff.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I went to some of the campaign campaign events, but
keeping my nose and my health portfolio quite a bit
lately as well. That's been pretty hot obviously.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
We'll talk about that later on the show. And National's
O Techi MP Tom Costly coming into us live from
the Beehive studio to quite a busy man.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Yeah, lots going on, just you know, just rebuilding the country.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
What's with it with the social I mean, you know
you're trying to be a social media star. Are you
looking for a new career am I?
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Well, somehow that's a compliment is I've obviously hacked into
your algorithm, So I'm gonna I'm going to put something
special on there just for you in the next couple
of days. I want to keep an eye for it.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I wonder why that you would come into my algorithm.
I mean, I don't think we have common sense.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
That you could come come into next studios, Tim.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Last time, I want to be there, But you know
we are, uh. The House is sitting, especially this morning
because we had a bill going through to support at
ewe up North and and it's a good thing to
be doing that that I think all of Parliament agrees on.
But it does mean that I am down here this morning.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
All right, let's get into something that we have been
talking about in the last hour. The government wants to
deal with shoplifting offenses in a quicker way instead of
going through the entire court system. The Justice Minister cab
a cabinet papers proposed that the burden of proof should
fall on the suspect to prove their innocence. This clashes
with the Bill of Rights presumed innocent until proven guilty. AI, sure,
(02:05):
what do you think of this? What are you? I mean,
we can't do that. It's our fundamental rights, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Well, it is a fundamental right and this is another
example of the government eroding some of those fundamental rights
that they have plans to reduce voting rights for people
the right to protest, and now the right to presume
innocent be presumed innocent. It is a way that they're
trying to deal with rising retail crime. But I would
(02:31):
just ask if they delivered on their promise of five
hundred new police, we might not be in this position
where I think New Zealanders will have concerns about whether
or not they get caught up with the police over
something that's an innocent mistake because of these changes.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Tim, explain to me how you think this could possibly work.
And don't give me the narrative that there's a billion
dollars that we're losing, because we know that and we
are trying to fix that issue. But tell us how
this will help, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Turn a half billion that we're losing every year. But
this is outrageous, right, How are we getting worked up
about going after the people that are stealing stuff and
not thinking about the victims of this that this is
This is not an infringement on people's human rights if
it's a common sense mistake, Loo, I trust our police
to have judgment. They do that already. This is exact
(03:26):
same kind of system as we have for speeding tickets.
If you get caught speeding. Police do have some judgment
and some latitude that they use, but there's no it's
the same thing you caught doing over the speed limit.
Are you therefore presumed guilty until you can prove yourself innocent?
It's the exact same regime.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Can you have this question? Because I couldn't answer it
to our listeners, good, So at me as a shopkeeper.
Can I instantly give that fine or it has to
be from a policeman.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
No, you're gonna have to No, No, you can't instantly
give that police police give that. We're not suddenly empowering
people to start handing out fines to people.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I mean, that's that's going to be an absolute fluke.
Isn't it an absolute fluke that a police officer just
happens to be walking past a shop when someone's burg
pinching something, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Oh? Or they call the police. The point is it's
not about the fact that they can be given a fine.
There are fines in place now where we sorry, it's
not find in place where we are bringing in the
fines to deal with this swiftly and quickly so it
doesn't have to go through and use up a whole
bunch of court time. But of course the shoplift is
still going to ring the police. They're still going to
get their cct for the CCTV footage and things that
(04:42):
they've got there to demonstrate why they've called the police.
The point is we want to deal with this swiftly
and quickly. We want to demonstrate there is a consequence
when you steal from retail businesses. But we don't need
to clog up the courts with this stuff. I should,
but the court, the court option does remain open if
that's where people want to.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Go, Okay, I should? This really is, you know, should
be protected by the New Zealand Bill of Rights, wouldn't it.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Well, it is, it is by the New Zealand Bill
of Rights. So we've got a big debate on these
proposals ahead as this comes through Parliament. And that's exactly
the questions that Labor will be raising and why just
this crime. I mean, I'm pretty frustrated that many violent
crimes against women don't seem to be able to be
(05:25):
prosecuted properly in this country and won't national change the
burden of proof for that? It seems to be a
pretty important principle that moving against that raises a lot
of questions for the National Party to answer.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
No.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Look, I fundamentally disagreement because what this is about is
about one. We actually have to take this stuff seriously,
but we don't need to clog up the court so
that they can focus on things like the serious and
violent offenders. This is how we can do both. It
would be great if we could have both sides of
the I'll agree on that.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Well, well, you're not going to taking the Bill of
Rights Act out and throwing it out the back door,
and you're not going to get that out. Let's start.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
But that's not happening. That's massively over the top, and
even you don't actually believe that's happening.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Well, I'm getting nervous about it. I'm getting nervous. Wow.
Should I be nervous?
Speaker 4 (06:14):
No, you should not be nervous. You should be very
calm and confident that we're taking lord and more seriously
and that your businesses will be safe if someone trust
and next stuff from them.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Okay, I'll be very careful when I try on. Sure,
it's not to be too close to the door when
a policeman's walking past. Migration. Our annual net migration gain
continued to fall over the year to July, with a
gain of just thirteen one hundred people sixty seven hundred
non New Zealand citizens arrived, while we lost forty seven thousand,
(06:43):
six hundred New Zealand citizens. Ayesha, tell me how this
concerns you or should it concern us? Because it concerns me.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
It concerns me too. I mean, what's happening here is
record levels of New Zealand citizens leaving the country. That
is because things under the Luxeon government are getting worse better.
People are struggling to see hope for the future. What
disappoints what's so sad about these statistics is that their
(07:13):
people in their thirties, so skelled, people with experience in
the workforce who are leaving. So I think it's a
very pessimistic picture for us, and that's why labor is
focused on the fundamentals of good jobs, strong healthcare, realaction
on the cost of living, because until we get those
(07:35):
things right, our young and talented people keep leaving.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Tim Costley I explained it to our listeners this morning
that it's the size of the crowd that was at
the All Blacks game at South Africa that left New
Zealand last year, some of our brightest, some of our best,
some of our cleverest and some that are thirty eight
and forty years old.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Yes, that is the size of that left, and then
more people arrived, but of course it's but I agree,
I'm concerned about the number of quality Kiwis that are
leaving the country. That's why we're fixing this country up.
When you ask what we're doing at the start, we
get in this country rebuilt because because when you have
(08:21):
high inflation, when you have massive price increases, when you
have high interest rates, when you have a shrinking economy,
then it's that has a huge impact and we are
still experiencing that impact.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Now.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Yes we're seeing improvement come through, but this all takes
time until people can actually afford their mortgage and get
these measures back where they should be. I understand Australia
have been in a better position to offer higher paying jobs,
but I guess that the well. This morning, I was
at breakfast with the a Z Chief Economists and she
(08:53):
described it as a brightening future that the forecast for
the next year was looking more positive for countries like
New Zealand and Australia that actually the right things. We're
turning the corner and there's a brightening future. But this
takes time.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Right since you guys have got into Parliament and I've
supported it and I've backed it, but it's not stopping
and it's not slowing down. What are you telling, you know,
you're not giving us anything that actually tells us you're
going to put the handbrake on and stop it. And
what are you telling these people go away for a
couple of years and wait un till we get it
(09:24):
sorted out and then come back. We need these young,
bright people and not so young bright people to stay
and rebuild it with us, don't.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
We one hundred percent? I would love them all to stay.
But I can understand why some people have made that decision.
You know, I've got friends that went off shore to
work in Australia and the mines and they lived there
for a few years. One of them has just come back.
That's awesome, But I understand why they did it financially,
because countries have made different decisions over the last six
(09:52):
or seven years to want news ELEI made and it's
put them in a better position. But my focus is
on making sure that we have the kind of local
and national economy that means there are jobs, there are opportunities.
The cost of living's coming down, and we are seeing that.
We're seeing interest rates become affordable again, We're seeing prices stabilized.
We have low inflation. I know Labour's policy is to
(10:13):
look at increasing inflation, but we're actually seeing.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
That's the rubbish. Tim You can stop right there. The
thing is the thing, this is getting worse, not better.
This is not the consequences of the borders reopening over COVID.
We are well passed that migration of New Zealand's skilled
people is getting worse, not better under your government. The
problem with the cost of living continues to get worse,
(10:38):
not better. Now you can talk about I mean, I
think it's quite revealing that you and Nikola Willis and
so on talk about these green green shoots at odds
with people's experience of the every everyday economy, and to
me that just says you actually don't have a plan
for fixing the economy. All you have a plan for
is the economic cycle saving your bacon. And actually it
(11:00):
looks like you're running out of time for that to
happen before the next election.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
No, did that at all. Your share is wrong because
if you go down and talk to anyone that's refixed
their mortgage recently, and I tell you what, another almost
half of.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Them talk to them about their rates.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
At why we're looking and that's why we're looking at
rates capping. That's why we turn on councils to reign
in their spending. But but, but.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
But I'm really interested in there and the mortgage rates.
Tim is, does the national government control what the r
b n Z does for for for to bank interest rates?
Might have to explain, Well, maybe you could explain it
to Nicola Willis, who seems to have quite a hand
in the running of the Reserve Bank at the minute.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
No, I'll tell you what. When you spend, when you
borrow and spend billions and billions on inflationary stuff that
drives up inflation, the Reserve Bank there are for left
with no choice but to crank up interest rates. We
saw the huge impact of their under the government still
recovering from that, which is why people are leaving the country.
But what we're seeing now is that by cutting the
wasteful spending, by spending in areas that are productive. By
(12:15):
getting our budget under control, we have seen inflation come
down a year ahead of someone's prediction of our fiscal policy.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Can I just ask you I should do if labor
gets back and will they let the inflation go but
high they wanted to go.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
But that's not a conversation that we're having at all.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
So no, it is what is labor's plan? Give us
one plan.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
We will act. I'll tell you there's a whole lot
of things we wouldn't do, including cutting governments.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Would you do it?
Speaker 3 (12:43):
In public services and on capital projects that has led
to massive jobs, job losses in the construction center, that sector,
which is what is driving people overseas. That is totally
on your government's decisions.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
So all of those, give us one plan.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
All of those cuts to projects that is totally a
result of canceled into island a ferries, hanceled housing builds,
canceled school built under your government.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I shall want to start with you on this one.
Some damning information about Wellington Hospital's emergency department with a
third of the patients treated in corridors where there is
a ten percent more people chance people will die, I
mean die. That's pretty damning isn't it now. I know
that both sides of the political game are to blame
(13:32):
for this, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Well, that emergency department has was new when I was
a new doctor there in two thousand and four, and
it is the hospital and the city has outgrown that
emergency department. Yes, that means that multiple governments have been
involved with the resources at Wellington Hospital that's led to
(13:55):
this situation, and both governments have been part of fixing it.
Andrew Little and I began the process of developing the
business case for there to be expansion, and I'm pleased
we're talking about this before the break. I am pleased
that this is not one of the capital projects that
the government has cut and that they have kept it
going until that change to the physical space is made.
(14:21):
It is a very tough environment and I really feel
for the patients and for my former colleagues who have to.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Can I just ask you, because you are an expert
in this field, because you have both sides politically and
hands on, can it be fixed with just putting or
slightly fixed. We know there's a new hospital coming in
twenty twenty nine, which is still a long way away.
A new ed department can it be fixed with increasing numbers,
more staffing, more resources.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
I haven't seen advice on that, but you would think
the answer intuitive would be intuitively would be yes, because
one of the things that we know about that department
is it's hard when you're working across it's basically laid
out like a rabbit warren in parts, with different bits,
different rooms tacked on to the original main floor area,
(15:11):
and that means it's harder to supervise what's going on
in that in some distant corner when most of the
work is on the main floor. So yes, you would
think that would be an important thing in the short term,
but I haven't seen any particular facts on it.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Tima. Is there going to be any developments between now
and the new We know that there's a new ed
opening and we know that's fantastic, but it's not until
twenty twenty nine. How many people have to die in
a corridor before twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
Well, I hope no one's going to die in a corridor,
and it certainly. People I've spoken with that have been there,
the care that they get and will it's in hospital
has been extraordinary. The trouble has been getting in and
getting through the ED in particular once they're actually in
the wards. I just want to acknowledge that the people
that have come to talk to me about health have
praised the work that the staff they have done, but
(16:00):
there is a capacity issue. So no, we can't wait
just until twenty twenty nine for the new ED that
we are funding in this year's budget. That's why we
have also done things like a new twenty four to
seven online GP service. That's why we're funding extra after
ours and the huts in Kinneperu and across the wider region.
(16:20):
That's why we are employing more doctors and nurses now
than there were two years ago. Explain this to me
all the different things.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Explain this to me right now. You've got young children.
I've got young children in my family. One of them
was particularly sick this week, particularly sick rang their GP
could not get in for ten days. Now, a three
year old that's particularly sick ten days, come back in
ten days. What do you tell the parents? So the
parents go to the after our surgery in new Town
(16:51):
and wait nearly four hours to be seen. I mean
that's not a medical service.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
Is it. Now? My experience has been that most GP
practices will reserve a couple of spots so that if
someone rings up and kids do tend to get priority.
From what I've said, there are a couple on the day,
But yeah, there will always be time that we need
that extra help. That's why we think after ours online
GP services, there are additional tools we can do while
(17:17):
at the same time we build this new one. I
guess the other thing that you know that I point
to is the data is really clear, and in fact,
we've talked about it. This has been in the media
that ever since those health targets were abolished in twenty eighteen,
from twenty nineteen onwards, the numbers decline. You know, we
used to have the vast majority of people being seen
within six hours. When we came into government, that number
(17:38):
had plummeted to sixty seven. It used to be eighty nine.
We're back up. We're back up now it's seventy four percent.
So targets work, if you measure it, you can manage it.
The targets are a good thing, and we are paying
some of this issue is not just capacity. It's the
fact that we sort of took our foot off the
pedal when the last Labor government abolished those targets.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
So I just wanted to add to the fact that
you've talked to people that have had a good result. Well,
the other people that lived there, people that the people
that died waiting in the corridor, they aren't going to
be knocking on your door and trying.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
To Unfortunately that's not actually sadly true.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Back pedal a little bit here. The statement about Wellington
Hospital was not specifically about individuals dying there. It is
that there is a risk and that is known from
studies from around the world. So I think we just
need to hold back and not create unnecessary alarm. But
(18:38):
it's definitely a big problem that we need to.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Okay, that's and I take that on board. Would you
have confidence right now if your child was really sick
that if he took them to the ED and they'd
be looked after an appropriate time and appropriately, Yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
I do. And Tim's right about the earlier point about
keeping spots open at general practice so that sick kids
can be seen, and if that's not happening, then there
needs to be more support for clinics to be able
to do that.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Now I know you both have got to go and
we've got the news to come to, but I want
to quickly talk about the by election that happened last
week and Labour's pretty Hanari suffered a heavy defeat in
the Tommacky Mikaldell by election. Aisha, this has to be
a very big concern for Labour's prospect for the you know,
with the married vote, it's just gone, hasn't it.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
That's not correct, Nick, Well it has.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I mean you cannot argue that. I mean he's lost
by three hundred.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Ordiny one and congratulations to her on that. We're looking
forward to welcoming her to Parliament. We enjoy very healthy
support and Mary electorates with the party vote. I'm sorry,
fact that was a by election which is only for
a seat. We continue to get really strong support elections
(19:56):
for a seat. No, it's not because we have MMP team.
So we will get high levels of support from Marty
voters on the list and they vote very strategically. They
they in this election and in others they vote for
TPM for the seat and then Labor for the list
and we do really well with that.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Sorry, sorry, we have to go to a news to
our news and I appreciate you both coming into the
studio today, the come on, Tim Costs, all right, I'll
give you, I'll give you twenty five seconds to not
put the booten, but have your say.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Well, I just want to say, I actually I'm on
Selectmeny with Penny and I actually feel sorry for the guy.
I think he's a victim of a labor party. That's
that's at They've got no policies, they don't stand for anything.
They won't even condemned to Kouda Feras when he's making
outwardly racist comments and doubling down on them. I'm not
surprised that that people aren't willing to back them, and
(20:53):
icidainly wouldn't either.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
There you go, that's it. I've got to go. It
is twenty nine minutes to twelve. Tim Costly, Aisha Viral.
Thank you both for taking your time out to be
on the show. Appreciate you both. Enjoyed having you in.
But a fun on a Thursday with politics.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news Talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
At B Politics Thursday. Today we have Labour's Health in
Wellington's issue spokesperson I Shaverraal, Good morning.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I Shark morning neck.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Oh, there's a lot of issues in Wellington right now.
So you've got a pretty busy job, haven't you. Are
you being involved in the council elections and stuff.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I went to some of the campaign campaign events, but
keeping my nose and my health portfolio quite a bit
lately as well. That's been pretty hot obviously.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
We'll talk about that later on the show. And National's
O Techi MP Tom Costly coming into us live from
the Beehive studio to quite a busy man.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Yeah, lots going on, just you know, just rebuilding the country.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
What's with it with the social I mean, you know
you're trying to be a social media star. Are you
looking for a new career am I?
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Well, somehow that's a compliment is I've obviously hacked into
your algorithm, So I'm gonna I'm going to put something
special on there just for you in the next couple
of days. I want to keep an eye for it.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I wonder why that you would come into my algorithm.
I mean, I don't think we have common sense.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
That you could come come into next studios, Tim.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Last time, I want to be there, But you know
we are, uh. The House is sitting, especially this morning
because we had a bill going through to support at
ewe up North and and it's a good thing to
be doing that that I think all of Parliament agrees on.
But it does mean that I am down here this morning.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
All right, let's get into something that we have been
talking about in the last hour. The government wants to
deal with shoplifting offenses in a quicker way instead of
going through the entire court system. The Justice Minister cab
a cabinet papers proposed that the burden of proof should
fall on the suspect to prove their innocence. This clashes
with the Bill of Rights presumed innocent until proven guilty. AI, sure,
(02:05):
what do you think of this? What are you? I mean,
we can't do that. It's our fundamental rights, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Well, it is a fundamental right and this is another
example of the government eroding some of those fundamental rights
that they have plans to reduce voting rights for people
the right to protest, and now the right to presume
innocent be presumed innocent. It is a way that they're
trying to deal with rising retail crime. But I would
(02:31):
just ask if they delivered on their promise of five
hundred new police, we might not be in this position
where I think New Zealanders will have concerns about whether
or not they get caught up with the police over
something that's an innocent mistake because of these changes.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Tim, explain to me how you think this could possibly work.
And don't give me the narrative that there's a billion
dollars that we're losing, because we know that and we
are trying to fix that issue. But tell us how
this will help, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Turn a half billion that we're losing every year. But
this is outrageous, right, How are we getting worked up
about going after the people that are stealing stuff and
not thinking about the victims of this that this is
This is not an infringement on people's human rights if
it's a common sense mistake, Loo, I trust our police
to have judgment. They do that already. This is exact
(03:26):
same kind of system as we have for speeding tickets.
If you get caught speeding. Police do have some judgment
and some latitude that they use, but there's no it's
the same thing you caught doing over the speed limit.
Are you therefore presumed guilty until you can prove yourself innocent?
It's the exact same regime.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Can you have this question? Because I couldn't answer it
to our listeners, good, So at me as a shopkeeper.
Can I instantly give that fine or it has to
be from a policeman.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
No, you're gonna have to No, No, you can't instantly
give that police police give that. We're not suddenly empowering
people to start handing out fines to people.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I mean, that's that's going to be an absolute fluke.
Isn't it an absolute fluke that a police officer just
happens to be walking past a shop when someone's burg
pinching something, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Oh? Or they call the police. The point is it's
not about the fact that they can be given a fine.
There are fines in place now where we sorry, it's
not find in place where we are bringing in the
fines to deal with this swiftly and quickly so it
doesn't have to go through and use up a whole
bunch of court time. But of course the shoplift is
still going to ring the police. They're still going to
get their cct for the CCTV footage and things that
(04:42):
they've got there to demonstrate why they've called the police.
The point is we want to deal with this swiftly
and quickly. We want to demonstrate there is a consequence
when you steal from retail businesses. But we don't need
to clog up the courts with this stuff. I should,
but the court, the court option does remain open if
that's where people want to.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Go, Okay, I should? This really is, you know, should
be protected by the New Zealand Bill of Rights, wouldn't it.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Well, it is, it is by the New Zealand Bill
of Rights. So we've got a big debate on these
proposals ahead as this comes through Parliament. And that's exactly
the questions that Labor will be raising and why just
this crime. I mean, I'm pretty frustrated that many violent
crimes against women don't seem to be able to be
(05:25):
prosecuted properly in this country and won't national change the
burden of proof for that? It seems to be a
pretty important principle that moving against that raises a lot
of questions for the National Party to answer.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
No.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Look, I fundamentally disagreement because what this is about is
about one. We actually have to take this stuff seriously,
but we don't need to clog up the court so
that they can focus on things like the serious and
violent offenders. This is how we can do both. It
would be great if we could have both sides of
the I'll agree on that.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Well, well, you're not going to taking the Bill of
Rights Act out and throwing it out the back door,
and you're not going to get that out. Let's start.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
But that's not happening. That's massively over the top, and
even you don't actually believe that's happening.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Well, I'm getting nervous about it. I'm getting nervous. Wow.
Should I be nervous?
Speaker 4 (06:14):
No, you should not be nervous. You should be very
calm and confident that we're taking lord and more seriously
and that your businesses will be safe if someone trust
and next stuff from them.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Okay, I'll be very careful when I try on. Sure,
it's not to be too close to the door when
a policeman's walking past. Migration. Our annual net migration gain
continued to fall over the year to July, with a
gain of just thirteen one hundred people sixty seven hundred
non New Zealand citizens arrived, while we lost forty seven thousand,
(06:43):
six hundred New Zealand citizens. Ayesha, tell me how this
concerns you or should it concern us? Because it concerns me.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
It concerns me too. I mean, what's happening here is
record levels of New Zealand citizens leaving the country. That
is because things under the Luxeon government are getting worse better.
People are struggling to see hope for the future. What
disappoints what's so sad about these statistics is that their
(07:13):
people in their thirties, so skelled, people with experience in
the workforce who are leaving. So I think it's a
very pessimistic picture for us, and that's why labor is
focused on the fundamentals of good jobs, strong healthcare, realaction
on the cost of living, because until we get those
(07:35):
things right, our young and talented people keep leaving.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Tim Costley I explained it to our listeners this morning
that it's the size of the crowd that was at
the All Blacks game at South Africa that left New
Zealand last year, some of our brightest, some of our best,
some of our cleverest and some that are thirty eight
and forty years old.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Yes, that is the size of that left, and then
more people arrived, but of course it's but I agree,
I'm concerned about the number of quality Kiwis that are
leaving the country. That's why we're fixing this country up.
When you ask what we're doing at the start, we
get in this country rebuilt because because when you have
(08:21):
high inflation, when you have massive price increases, when you
have high interest rates, when you have a shrinking economy,
then it's that has a huge impact and we are
still experiencing that impact.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Now.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Yes we're seeing improvement come through, but this all takes
time until people can actually afford their mortgage and get
these measures back where they should be. I understand Australia
have been in a better position to offer higher paying jobs,
but I guess that the well. This morning, I was
at breakfast with the a Z Chief Economists and she
(08:53):
described it as a brightening future that the forecast for
the next year was looking more positive for countries like
New Zealand and Australia that actually the right things. We're
turning the corner and there's a brightening future. But this
takes time.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Right since you guys have got into Parliament and I've
supported it and I've backed it, but it's not stopping
and it's not slowing down. What are you telling, you know,
you're not giving us anything that actually tells us you're
going to put the handbrake on and stop it. And
what are you telling these people go away for a
couple of years and wait un till we get it
(09:24):
sorted out and then come back. We need these young,
bright people and not so young bright people to stay
and rebuild it with us, don't.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
We one hundred percent? I would love them all to stay.
But I can understand why some people have made that decision.
You know, I've got friends that went off shore to
work in Australia and the mines and they lived there
for a few years. One of them has just come back.
That's awesome, But I understand why they did it financially,
because countries have made different decisions over the last six
(09:52):
or seven years to want news ELEI made and it's
put them in a better position. But my focus is
on making sure that we have the kind of local
and national economy that means there are jobs, there are opportunities.
The cost of living's coming down, and we are seeing that.
We're seeing interest rates become affordable again, We're seeing prices stabilized.
We have low inflation. I know Labour's policy is to
(10:13):
look at increasing inflation, but we're actually seeing.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
That's the rubbish. Tim You can stop right there. The
thing is the thing, this is getting worse, not better.
This is not the consequences of the borders reopening over COVID.
We are well passed that migration of New Zealand's skilled
people is getting worse, not better under your government. The
problem with the cost of living continues to get worse,
(10:38):
not better. Now you can talk about I mean, I
think it's quite revealing that you and Nikola Willis and
so on talk about these green green shoots at odds
with people's experience of the every everyday economy, and to
me that just says you actually don't have a plan
for fixing the economy. All you have a plan for
is the economic cycle saving your bacon. And actually it
(11:00):
looks like you're running out of time for that to
happen before the next election.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
No, did that at all. Your share is wrong because
if you go down and talk to anyone that's refixed
their mortgage recently, and I tell you what, another almost
half of.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Them talk to them about their rates.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
At why we're looking and that's why we're looking at
rates capping. That's why we turn on councils to reign
in their spending. But but, but.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
But I'm really interested in there and the mortgage rates.
Tim is, does the national government control what the r
b n Z does for for for to bank interest rates?
Might have to explain, Well, maybe you could explain it
to Nicola Willis, who seems to have quite a hand
in the running of the Reserve Bank at the minute.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
No, I'll tell you what. When you spend, when you
borrow and spend billions and billions on inflationary stuff that
drives up inflation, the Reserve Bank there are for left
with no choice but to crank up interest rates. We
saw the huge impact of their under the government still
recovering from that, which is why people are leaving the country.
But what we're seeing now is that by cutting the
wasteful spending, by spending in areas that are productive. By
(12:15):
getting our budget under control, we have seen inflation come
down a year ahead of someone's prediction of our fiscal policy.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Can I just ask you I should do if labor
gets back and will they let the inflation go but
high they wanted to go.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
But that's not a conversation that we're having at all.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
So no, it is what is labor's plan? Give us
one plan.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
We will act. I'll tell you there's a whole lot
of things we wouldn't do, including cutting governments.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Would you do it?
Speaker 3 (12:43):
In public services and on capital projects that has led
to massive jobs, job losses in the construction center, that sector,
which is what is driving people overseas. That is totally
on your government's decisions.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
So all of those, give us one plan.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
All of those cuts to projects that is totally a
result of canceled into island a ferries, hanceled housing builds,
canceled school built under your government.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I shall want to start with you on this one.
Some damning information about Wellington Hospital's emergency department with a
third of the patients treated in corridors where there is
a ten percent more people chance people will die, I
mean die. That's pretty damning isn't it now. I know
that both sides of the political game are to blame
(13:32):
for this, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Well, that emergency department has was new when I was
a new doctor there in two thousand and four, and
it is the hospital and the city has outgrown that
emergency department. Yes, that means that multiple governments have been
involved with the resources at Wellington Hospital that's led to
(13:55):
this situation, and both governments have been part of fixing it.
Andrew Little and I began the process of developing the
business case for there to be expansion, and I'm pleased
we're talking about this before the break. I am pleased
that this is not one of the capital projects that
the government has cut and that they have kept it
going until that change to the physical space is made.
(14:21):
It is a very tough environment and I really feel
for the patients and for my former colleagues who have to.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Can I just ask you, because you are an expert
in this field, because you have both sides politically and
hands on, can it be fixed with just putting or
slightly fixed. We know there's a new hospital coming in
twenty twenty nine, which is still a long way away.
A new ed department can it be fixed with increasing numbers,
more staffing, more resources.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
I haven't seen advice on that, but you would think
the answer intuitive would be intuitively would be yes, because
one of the things that we know about that department
is it's hard when you're working across it's basically laid
out like a rabbit warren in parts, with different bits,
different rooms tacked on to the original main floor area,
(15:11):
and that means it's harder to supervise what's going on
in that in some distant corner when most of the
work is on the main floor. So yes, you would
think that would be an important thing in the short term,
but I haven't seen any particular facts on it.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Tima. Is there going to be any developments between now
and the new We know that there's a new ed
opening and we know that's fantastic, but it's not until
twenty twenty nine. How many people have to die in
a corridor before twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
Well, I hope no one's going to die in a corridor,
and it certainly. People I've spoken with that have been there,
the care that they get and will it's in hospital
has been extraordinary. The trouble has been getting in and
getting through the ED in particular once they're actually in
the wards. I just want to acknowledge that the people
that have come to talk to me about health have
praised the work that the staff they have done, but
(16:00):
there is a capacity issue. So no, we can't wait
just until twenty twenty nine for the new ED that
we are funding in this year's budget. That's why we
have also done things like a new twenty four to
seven online GP service. That's why we're funding extra after
ours and the huts in Kinneperu and across the wider region.
(16:20):
That's why we are employing more doctors and nurses now
than there were two years ago. Explain this to me
all the different things.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Explain this to me right now. You've got young children.
I've got young children in my family. One of them
was particularly sick this week, particularly sick rang their GP
could not get in for ten days. Now, a three
year old that's particularly sick ten days, come back in
ten days. What do you tell the parents? So the
parents go to the after our surgery in new Town
(16:51):
and wait nearly four hours to be seen. I mean
that's not a medical service.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
Is it. Now? My experience has been that most GP
practices will reserve a couple of spots so that if
someone rings up and kids do tend to get priority.
From what I've said, there are a couple on the day,
But yeah, there will always be time that we need
that extra help. That's why we think after ours online
GP services, there are additional tools we can do while
(17:17):
at the same time we build this new one. I
guess the other thing that you know that I point
to is the data is really clear, and in fact,
we've talked about it. This has been in the media
that ever since those health targets were abolished in twenty eighteen,
from twenty nineteen onwards, the numbers decline. You know, we
used to have the vast majority of people being seen
within six hours. When we came into government, that number
(17:38):
had plummeted to sixty seven. It used to be eighty nine.
We're back up. We're back up now it's seventy four percent.
So targets work, if you measure it, you can manage it.
The targets are a good thing, and we are paying
some of this issue is not just capacity. It's the
fact that we sort of took our foot off the
pedal when the last Labor government abolished those targets.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
So I just wanted to add to the fact that
you've talked to people that have had a good result. Well,
the other people that lived there, people that the people
that died waiting in the corridor, they aren't going to
be knocking on your door and trying.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
To Unfortunately that's not actually sadly true.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Back pedal a little bit here. The statement about Wellington
Hospital was not specifically about individuals dying there. It is
that there is a risk and that is known from
studies from around the world. So I think we just
need to hold back and not create unnecessary alarm. But
(18:38):
it's definitely a big problem that we need to.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Okay, that's and I take that on board. Would you
have confidence right now if your child was really sick
that if he took them to the ED and they'd
be looked after an appropriate time and appropriately, Yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
I do. And Tim's right about the earlier point about
keeping spots open at general practice so that sick kids
can be seen, and if that's not happening, then there
needs to be more support for clinics to be able
to do that.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Now I know you both have got to go and
we've got the news to come to, but I want
to quickly talk about the by election that happened last
week and Labour's pretty Hanari suffered a heavy defeat in
the Tommacky Mikaldell by election. Aisha, this has to be
a very big concern for Labour's prospect for the you know,
with the married vote, it's just gone, hasn't it.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
That's not correct, Nick, Well it has.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I mean you cannot argue that. I mean he's lost
by three hundred.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Ordiny one and congratulations to her on that. We're looking
forward to welcoming her to Parliament. We enjoy very healthy
support and Mary electorates with the party vote. I'm sorry,
fact that was a by election which is only for
a seat. We continue to get really strong support elections
(19:56):
for a seat. No, it's not because we have MMP team.
So we will get high levels of support from Marty
voters on the list and they vote very strategically. They
they in this election and in others they vote for
TPM for the seat and then Labor for the list
and we do really well with that.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Sorry, sorry, we have to go to a news to
our news and I appreciate you both coming into the
studio today, the come on, Tim Costs, all right, I'll
give you, I'll give you twenty five seconds to not
put the booten, but have your say.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Well, I just want to say, I actually I'm on
Selectmeny with Penny and I actually feel sorry for the guy.
I think he's a victim of a labor party. That's
that's at They've got no policies, they don't stand for anything.
They won't even condemned to Kouda Feras when he's making
outwardly racist comments and doubling down on them. I'm not
surprised that that people aren't willing to back them, and
(20:53):
icidainly wouldn't either.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
There you go, that's it. I've got to go. It
is twenty nine minutes to twelve. Tim Costly, Aisha Viral.
Thank you both for taking your time out to be
on the show. Appreciate you both. Enjoyed having you in.
But a fun on a Thursday with politics.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news Talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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