November 12, 2025 • 21 mins
On Politics Thursday this week Nick Mills was joined by Labour MP Ayesha Verrall and National's Ōtaki MP Tim Costley.
They spoke on the McSkimming case, and the IPCA report findings that show the police were covering up information.
Costley and Verrall then spoke on the other political issues of the week, including their thoughts on the future of Te Pati Māori and potential coalitions and the new drug driving testing starting in Wellington.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks, B Politics.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Thursday, we have in the studio with us Tim Costley,
national MP for O Taching.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Good morning, Tim, good morning, Nice to have you here.
Speaker 4 (00:22):
It's great to be here. I love it.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
You haven't got your camera guard gave.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
You always for you. I just I know that this
is your dream. One day you're gonna You're gonna turn
up on this, you know.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
You know.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Grace keeps telling me that she's just really guru on
social media. She's gonna have She's going to have our
show on every social media.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
She's secretly working for me.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
So is she working for you?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Ye? Oh?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
My gosh Aihaviral Labor MPs spokesperson for Health and Wellington Issues,
as always, lovely to have you in here talking about
social media.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Bit a puffing and panting.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Going on in the social Oh I should say that
the right way, shouldn't I going on with Ishaviral on
social media.
Speaker 5 (01:01):
You're referring to a video of me jogging.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
I am referring to I want to hear more about
that's what's happen now.
Speaker 5 (01:08):
You I'm training a bit, but well, I was actually
complaining on social media that it's been so hard to
train in Wellington recently because the weather. It's been so wendy.
It's been really tough.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
But good form you social media.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
Social media think it's fine, you should. She should get
a shameless plug. Now is there's a charity run? What
are you doing talking about?
Speaker 5 (01:29):
He was to say, midlife crisis.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Clearly, it's okay.
Speaker 5 (01:34):
I enjoyed jogging. It's it's my thing and it's I'm
always happy to get out.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
I just signed up for a charity little thing as well.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
For goodness sake, it's my show, not you go.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
We'll talk about ex Deputy Police Commissioner mister Miss Skimmings
abuse claims. Reports findings were released after it's found that
assault claims were not investigated and instead the woman has
been done for harassment.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Cover up.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Culture within the police became clear, especially with Andrew Costa's involvement.
You obviously know Andrew, You've obviously dealt with him. Did
this come as much of a surprise to you as
it did to us?
Speaker 5 (02:13):
It came its as a total shock. I keep thinking
how that woman must feel to have raised complaints that
she had every right to think should be taken seriously
to be ignored and worse, the subject of prosecution herself.
It is inexcusable and a complete failure of duty. I
(02:38):
was in meetings with Andrew cost didn't have saw them
from time to time, but a complete complete shock.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
How did nobody know what was going on?
Speaker 5 (02:50):
Well, it's evident that well it appears to be a
cover up, doesn't It appears to be a number of
efforts to keep information away from ministers.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Do you actually accept any of that? Does Labor accept
any of the responsibility for it? Did they think that
they had some partner or I mean that was it
was definitely a political appointee, wasn't he.
Speaker 5 (03:16):
I don't know the circumstances about his appointment, but what
I would say is no, there has not been any
evidence that material reached government about this issue when we
were in government, and it appears that for some time
this government didn't know about it either.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, I mean, surely someone should have known something. I mean,
this is really bad stuff, wasn't it.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:42):
This is this is horrific and it's I mean, it
feels almost like another world to me. I'm obviously, Look,
I'm not a minister I'm not involved in this kind
of stuff. And yeah, much as there are political aspects
to the appointment, this is not a political issue. This
is this is not the fault of I would say,
of our government or of the previous labor government. People
(04:03):
did appear to know. That appeared to be at least
set people, or the mister mix Skimming and the five
other senior most senior police officers that did know, and
yet it was held with in those people. The Minister's
office was specifically told not to be informed. So that
(04:24):
raises really serious questions, right, and it's hard to believe
that's what's happening.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And can you tell can you tell our listeners what
the new Inspected General role, how that will work. I
mean you've had one of those in military, so you'll
have a background of that.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
So well, it's very new in defense as well. Right, Yeah,
it's very new. We've just gone through that went through
Emparliament i think last week in terms of appointing someone
to that role. But it's very new. It's about Look,
I think what this is about is actually giving some
teeth and some more weight to what the IPCA does
and having someone that can actually hold this to account.
I think what it shows is that we take this
(04:58):
really seriously. We can't wait to act. We've got the
IPCA report, it came out on Tuesday. Immediately all fifteen
recommendations were accepted, thirteen of those of police, two for government,
and the Inspector General has been appoint said we need
to move swiftly and firmly. And I think that's what.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Can you just really quickly because I want to go
to Aisha for one last comment on it, but can
you really quickly tell our listeners what this Inspected General
role will do really quickly in one sentence.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Look, I'm not the expert in this, but effectively that
it is about the investigation.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
They don't need to get a complaint to act.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Right and they and they have some teeth that the
i p c A don't have in terms of do
the i p c A not have teeth?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I mean, this is pretty this is pretty out there
for them.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
And this last couple of days we've been getting a
lot of text and callers saying that they now trust
it more because they always thought that the i p
c A was a cover up for police.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Anyway, Well, I suppose that is if something positive can
come out of this. It must be a restoration of
trust and confidence in the police. And the report is
the first and Labor fully supports the effort to put
in a inspect to General that came in with Defense
after Operation Burnham. So it is it is giving more
(06:17):
teeth to those investigations, and it is important for making
sure this doesn't happen again.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
I mean, I'm sorry, but I'm old enough to know
this will happen again. And I was your guy's age
when the Louise Nicholas story shocked not only New Zealand,
shocked austraight shocked the media worldwide, and we were told
this is never going to ever happen again, and we're
facing basically not the same but same sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Tim.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Well, look, it's like I said, I mean, it's horrific.
It's it's it's kind of hard to believe because in
this day and age, so many things that come on
to social media, and from what I've read in the newspaper,
to be honest, where it says some of this comments
we put on social media and yet such a large
group of people shut it down. I think it's important
to note that none of those senior police officers work
(07:09):
for police anymore. We have a very different leadership group
at the time.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Are you sure that none of them? I think I've
still believed there's two or three that are still involved.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Oh well, what I read said that that all of
the five or sex including mister mac skiing officers no
longer work for police and are not in those senior ofs.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
You look, you've got to frown there.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
What's the do I recall Minister Mitchell announcing that a
casey was progressing certain employment law cases, so there is
some scope for further findings against some police I believe,
going back to your point, the it's been a sad
(07:52):
thing about lots of communities around the world for a
very long time that when women raise these sorts of complaints,
they are not believed. The work of making sure that
the police do not reflect that bias that is deeply
ingrained in our community is, as you say, one that
(08:13):
has got that has to be ongoing, but making and
will be ongoing. We'll be working at this and I
am a very old lady too, But the point is
that we have to make sure the systems support that
work to succeed. And that's why where we support the
Inspector General.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
I'm going to ask you very quickly, both of you,
because I've got to go to an air break. But
I really want to know this because I believe strongly
that there is a culture of looking after our own
in the police. And I think that you don't have
to walk too far down the street to have other
people agreeing with him. Tim, do you think that's a
culture that we need to get rid of.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Well, it's a good thing in the right circumstance, it's
a bad thing in the wrong one. Right, And I
think the important point to make here is that there
were police officers, courageous police officers that actually did speak up.
That's how this has come to. Like people spoke up.
The people that are still there now doing the right thing.
The information I have is definitely that all five of
those in the senior executive that were named in the
(09:12):
IPCA report have left the police. I just want to
give you what I overlook, the good people that actually
spoke up in this thing.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Can I just give you the information I got. A
police officer who wrongly labeled the accusations against Jevin mcskimming
as false still works for the police, but no longer
has anything to do with handling of evidence or interaction
with victims of crime. Crime said the police commissioner.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
That that, as I understand, that is not one of
those senior sort of deputy associate commissioners.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
All right, cool, So I should quickly because I've got
to go to an brak. Do you believe that there
is a culture within police of looking after their own That.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
Report proved there is a problem with the culture and
it's got to change.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Yeah, great, thank you.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It's Thursday and it's politics Thursday, and we have Ai
Shaviril and Tim Costley in the studio to party Maori.
Two MP's have gone sitting alone in Parliament in the
back corner. What is going to happen to Coppacini and
Fairest should there be a by election? What's going on? Aishaver?
You a meeting with Chris Hipkins all the time? They say,
(10:17):
he said not what's going on?
Speaker 5 (10:20):
I think they might have called Chris to let him
know what happened, but I think that's been the extent
of it. Well, I think this will probably continue in
the current state till the election.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
By the sound of them, you don't think there's going
to be a bie leading.
Speaker 5 (10:34):
It's my interpretation. It doesn't seem like anyone's leading towards
that they're not, and so it looks like they're happy
to sit in the at the back of Parliament for
the rest of the term and then they'll have a
decision about whether they contest the election. And you know,
it's a shame really because now more than ever, Mary
(10:55):
will feel like they need a strong voice in Parliament
and the voice that they had elected looks increasingly shaky.
So there's an opportunity for Labor to make sure we
win those when those voters back. As TPM struggles, I.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Mean, will you be looking at this and so here
we go, this is our opportunity because you're clearly out
of line with marrowd and last election.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
I mean there's no debating that.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
So is this an opportunity will debate that neck. As
I've said here previously, I think what happened as Mary
saw that they could get a two for they could
get two for the price of one. The Labor MARII
MP's were coming in on the list and they could
also get to Party Mari as their electric votes. This time,
I think that proposition will look pretty shaky with the
(11:40):
changes in TPM, and so Labor has an opportunity.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Should they be a bye election?
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Tom, Well, there so many questions and are they the
only two MP's being kicked out? I read in the
news last night about meetings taking place in Auckland with
two other Well, there's only two others that aren't co leaders.
There's not many left right, and what's going on? And they,
I mean, they are just a complete mess, you know,
two for or working with Labor or whatever. It cannot
(12:08):
be an option after the next election. And I'd love
to just hear them come out now and rule it
out because we can't work with them in this current state,
not the current raging.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
Do you need to they're ruling themselves out.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Did you get a bit of a fright?
Speaker 4 (12:21):
We should rule them out there and say, look, we're
not going to do it because New Zealand is to Look,
there's going to be a coalition government after the next
election no matter what. Let's be really clear about who's
out there. And they have just bred a culture where
everything is about fighting and it's about division, and when
there's no one else to fight, they fight themselves. Sho.
Speaker 5 (12:40):
I think it's unfair to reflect on the last two
years and not also acknowledge that there has been a
massive rollback of rights for Mari and health and education
and local government and the care and protection of children.
The economic times that particularly hit Mary. They are struggling
(13:02):
more than anyone else amongst the job losses. I think
to characterize the challenges in Mary politics as Tim just
did is unfair.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Mary now love But I'd love to come out and
talk about this, like, where are they saying, yes, we
want to see structured literacy ms because that will lift
achievement amongst Maori kids. Where are they coming out and
fighting for some of these social issues They're not. They
the number one issue on that, on the on the
Big Treaty Principles Bill, which was terrible bill and we
didn't support it. But but the number one issue on
(13:33):
that was they won a separate Maori government. That's what
the couple king is put as number one. And they
had bred people into the Maori Party that we're going
to campaign on really extreme stuff. Remember, they only got
three percent of the vote at the last election.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
This is not even the.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Majority of Maori voting for them. But they bred a
culture where they just went so far and so hard.
Just come out and say you won't wear with them.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
But you just agreed with me. You just agreed with
me about the fact that Marty didn't vote overwhelmingly for
TPM at the last.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Yes, so rule them out. Say you're going to go
hard and you're going to win.
Speaker 5 (14:05):
The look a lot long way from government right now,
that's absolutely the case. And as I've said, there's an
opportunity for us because these are sues mighty facing, are
very serious, and on the issue of job losses, I mean,
I think Labor has the most credible, has been the
most credible opposition party, and that is really impacting.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
But if they were the only way to get into government,
would you.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Work with him?
Speaker 5 (14:24):
Well that's not that. There's a long way to go
before the election, Tim, and so we'll all put our stall.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Out before then, all right, talking about coalitions, because this
is a very interesting one for me. Winston Peters has
come out and said he's not going to have a
bar of asset sales. Prime Minister wants to look at
it and wants to do it seriously. Now there's history here.
I mean, basically, Winston Peter's got kicked out of the
coalition and Deputy Prime when he didn't want the sale.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Of assets before under Jenny Shipley.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Now you might be having to look at sea finding
a new coalition partner of the Prime Minister wants to
sell the Walker and Winston Peters doesn't want to.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Well, we're not selling anything in this term, right, that's
part of our coalition agreement. That's how we've held it.
And I think this is what the PM's done so
well holding that car.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Is talking about it if it doesn't want to.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Oh, we have to have a mature conversation about what
the future could look like because it's not about getting
rid of assets. It's about upscaling, right, It's about saying,
you know, we need to sell.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
I want to sell. He wants to buy more. Upscaling
is buying more.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
Absolutely, it's about you sell one thing that's not working
for you to get something else. We all do this
in our homes, right, which is that cause of bit
old it costs too much to run. I'm going to
sell that so I can put that money towards a
new car that's going to be more cost effective to run.
I want to get an electric car, whatever it might be.
We need to do the same as a government. That
is the whole point. You know later saying they're modeling
themselves on the Singapore Future Fund, That's exactly what it does.
(15:43):
It's about saying. It's not saying we're just going to
get rid of all assets and sit on a big
pile of cash like Scrooge McDuck. It's about saying, we're
going to use the equity, the capital we have in
one asset to go and buy something else that will
work for all New Zealanders.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I shoul where do you stand on this? How does
labor sit on asset sales?
Speaker 5 (16:01):
Well, our proposal is not to sell assets and to
make sure that we put some of our assets in
the New Zealand Future Fund, which is the opportunity for
New Zealand to take control of its future. Currently, the
income from our assets goes to general expenditure hospitals and
schools and so on important things.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
We're going to take that money from the school.
Speaker 5 (16:23):
Oportunity we would like to create is to have some
of those dividends that in the Future Fund and over
time allow more investment in New Zealand as that grows.
So some of these challenges we have and building infrastructure
and investing in our productive firms and growing our economy
here that we can address over the longer term.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
So that's important, right because she's just said what we're
going to do. We're not going to sell an asset
that's not working for us to get new money to
invest into productive ones. We're going to take it from
what would have otherwise been general expenses. It's coming from
schools and hospitals, to quote her, schools and hospitals to
go to put into a select group of these new
productive things, which they'll tell us after the election what
(17:04):
they are, but they won't tell us now.
Speaker 5 (17:05):
Well, the issue is that all of these assets are
not working strategically for us at the moment, and the
dividends just go into general expenditure and we never benefit
from being able to grow our assets over time.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
So, but there were less money for schools and hospitals, right.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
Well, you'll see how much money there is for schools
and hospitals, but it's been.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Coming out of the general fund. Where does the money
come from if you don't sell something.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
The point the difference between National and Labor is that
National sees these assets is a way of funding general
expenditure and we see them as a strategic asset that
we need to grow. And for example, when John Key
sold assets previous previously, he did it just to prop
up the baselines so that he could essentially, you keep,
you sell bits of the house in order to be
(17:50):
able to pay for tomorrow's groceries.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
No, that paid for things like Transmission Gully, the new
Capity Expressway, the cycle lane cycle ways across New Zealand,
a lift tourism. But you know, if we want to
build new hospitals and schools, we need money.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
We're running out of time.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
I'd love to that conversation going, but we've only got
a few more minutes. So I want to ask you
about drug testing because new drug testing is going to
be rolled out and it's starting at Wellington.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
We're number one. Oh sure, how does a science work
on this? And you would have had a look at this.
Don't laugh about you're a doctor. You know whether it's
going to work or not.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
I do love coming in for a quiz. The challenge
when I looked at this in cabinet is with every
test you do, there's people who test positive and they've
been using drugs. There's people who test positive and they
haven't been using drugs. They are false positive. And there's
people who have false negatives as well, and so that's
(18:45):
the issue. How much How does the system resolve those
for those people? Do people get pinged done fairly? Do
some people slip through the net?
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Why did you not bring this in when you talk to.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
These issues exactly? These issues? They were so complicated. So look,
we were not opposed to it. If they can make
it work and we'll see and can make sure that
people aren't unfairly pained, fine, then I think that's that's
a positive development.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Now you would have been drug tested now and again
because you flew helicopters, so you would have actually had
to be tested.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Yep, correct, correct, Yes, maybe you should test all MP's
there's a starting point, it'd be great.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Look, I think I wanted to party Marria, don't turn
up in comparliament, but we haven't.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
Seen any of this week. Look, I just think we
have to do something right and I and I accept's
advice on the on the medical side of the testing,
but look, ninety three people being killed from drug related driving.
There's too many. We've got to do something.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Thank you both very much.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Talking about to party Marria, because people have been telling
me that all the time that they hardly ever turned
up to parliament.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
That is that correct? I mean you guys are there?
Are they? Are they there regularly?
Speaker 4 (19:55):
Look well, if you look at the two that have
been expelled, Miss KAPAKINGI actually is probably the present the
most out of everyone. She would often be the only
one there for an entire day. Mister Ferris hardly ever said.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Really don't we pay them yep to be there?
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Well, people get to choose what to vote for at
the next election.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
You should be the speaker, should have restriction if you're
not turning up to work, And why don't you have
to work?
Speaker 3 (20:20):
I don't get paid.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Well.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
The thing to be accountable to the voters about is
about how you are getting things done. So are you
getting things done by being present in your community listening
to them, or are you getting things done in parliament?
So they need that cases for them to make.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Okay, thank you both very much. We're run over time
and I know that you're very both very busy. I
really appreciate you both coming and it's lovely to talk
to you. Have a great, great weekend. The weather's getting better.
You know, we're apparently getting all much better. We're making
more money. You know, we're all everything's working out better.
Don't look at me like that, Ice Strap, don't look
at me like that. Happy to Tim Costley and I Severel.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Thank you enjoying here
Speaker 1 (20:59):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, Listen live
to news talks There'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast st on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks, B Politics.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Thursday, we have in the studio with us Tim Costley,
national MP for O Taching.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Good morning, Tim, good morning, Nice to have you here.
Speaker 4 (00:22):
It's great to be here. I love it.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
You haven't got your camera guard gave.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
You always for you. I just I know that this
is your dream. One day you're gonna You're gonna turn
up on this, you know.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
You know.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Grace keeps telling me that she's just really guru on
social media. She's gonna have She's going to have our
show on every social media.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
She's secretly working for me.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
So is she working for you?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Ye? Oh?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
My gosh Aihaviral Labor MPs spokesperson for Health and Wellington Issues,
as always, lovely to have you in here talking about
social media.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Bit a puffing and panting.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Going on in the social Oh I should say that
the right way, shouldn't I going on with Ishaviral on
social media.
Speaker 5 (01:01):
You're referring to a video of me jogging.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
I am referring to I want to hear more about
that's what's happen now.
Speaker 5 (01:08):
You I'm training a bit, but well, I was actually
complaining on social media that it's been so hard to
train in Wellington recently because the weather. It's been so wendy.
It's been really tough.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
But good form you social media.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
Social media think it's fine, you should. She should get
a shameless plug. Now is there's a charity run? What
are you doing talking about?
Speaker 5 (01:29):
He was to say, midlife crisis.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Clearly, it's okay.
Speaker 5 (01:34):
I enjoyed jogging. It's it's my thing and it's I'm
always happy to get out.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
I just signed up for a charity little thing as well.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
For goodness sake, it's my show, not you go.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
We'll talk about ex Deputy Police Commissioner mister Miss Skimmings
abuse claims. Reports findings were released after it's found that
assault claims were not investigated and instead the woman has
been done for harassment.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Cover up.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Culture within the police became clear, especially with Andrew Costa's involvement.
You obviously know Andrew, You've obviously dealt with him. Did
this come as much of a surprise to you as
it did to us?
Speaker 5 (02:13):
It came its as a total shock. I keep thinking
how that woman must feel to have raised complaints that
she had every right to think should be taken seriously
to be ignored and worse, the subject of prosecution herself.
It is inexcusable and a complete failure of duty. I
(02:38):
was in meetings with Andrew cost didn't have saw them
from time to time, but a complete complete shock.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
How did nobody know what was going on?
Speaker 5 (02:50):
Well, it's evident that well it appears to be a
cover up, doesn't It appears to be a number of
efforts to keep information away from ministers.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Do you actually accept any of that? Does Labor accept
any of the responsibility for it? Did they think that
they had some partner or I mean that was it
was definitely a political appointee, wasn't he.
Speaker 5 (03:16):
I don't know the circumstances about his appointment, but what
I would say is no, there has not been any
evidence that material reached government about this issue when we
were in government, and it appears that for some time
this government didn't know about it either.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, I mean, surely someone should have known something. I mean,
this is really bad stuff, wasn't it.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:42):
This is this is horrific and it's I mean, it
feels almost like another world to me. I'm obviously, Look,
I'm not a minister I'm not involved in this kind
of stuff. And yeah, much as there are political aspects
to the appointment, this is not a political issue. This
is this is not the fault of I would say,
of our government or of the previous labor government. People
(04:03):
did appear to know. That appeared to be at least
set people, or the mister mix Skimming and the five
other senior most senior police officers that did know, and
yet it was held with in those people. The Minister's
office was specifically told not to be informed. So that
(04:24):
raises really serious questions, right, and it's hard to believe
that's what's happening.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And can you tell can you tell our listeners what
the new Inspected General role, how that will work. I
mean you've had one of those in military, so you'll
have a background of that.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
So well, it's very new in defense as well. Right, Yeah,
it's very new. We've just gone through that went through
Emparliament i think last week in terms of appointing someone
to that role. But it's very new. It's about Look,
I think what this is about is actually giving some
teeth and some more weight to what the IPCA does
and having someone that can actually hold this to account.
I think what it shows is that we take this
(04:58):
really seriously. We can't wait to act. We've got the
IPCA report, it came out on Tuesday. Immediately all fifteen
recommendations were accepted, thirteen of those of police, two for government,
and the Inspector General has been appoint said we need
to move swiftly and firmly. And I think that's what.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Can you just really quickly because I want to go
to Aisha for one last comment on it, but can
you really quickly tell our listeners what this Inspected General
role will do really quickly in one sentence.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Look, I'm not the expert in this, but effectively that
it is about the investigation.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
They don't need to get a complaint to act.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Right and they and they have some teeth that the
i p c A don't have in terms of do
the i p c A not have teeth?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I mean, this is pretty this is pretty out there
for them.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
And this last couple of days we've been getting a
lot of text and callers saying that they now trust
it more because they always thought that the i p
c A was a cover up for police.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Anyway, Well, I suppose that is if something positive can
come out of this. It must be a restoration of
trust and confidence in the police. And the report is
the first and Labor fully supports the effort to put
in a inspect to General that came in with Defense
after Operation Burnham. So it is it is giving more
(06:17):
teeth to those investigations, and it is important for making
sure this doesn't happen again.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
I mean, I'm sorry, but I'm old enough to know
this will happen again. And I was your guy's age
when the Louise Nicholas story shocked not only New Zealand,
shocked austraight shocked the media worldwide, and we were told
this is never going to ever happen again, and we're
facing basically not the same but same sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Tim.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Well, look, it's like I said, I mean, it's horrific.
It's it's it's kind of hard to believe because in
this day and age, so many things that come on
to social media, and from what I've read in the newspaper,
to be honest, where it says some of this comments
we put on social media and yet such a large
group of people shut it down. I think it's important
to note that none of those senior police officers work
(07:09):
for police anymore. We have a very different leadership group
at the time.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Are you sure that none of them? I think I've
still believed there's two or three that are still involved.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Oh well, what I read said that that all of
the five or sex including mister mac skiing officers no
longer work for police and are not in those senior ofs.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
You look, you've got to frown there.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
What's the do I recall Minister Mitchell announcing that a
casey was progressing certain employment law cases, so there is
some scope for further findings against some police I believe,
going back to your point, the it's been a sad
(07:52):
thing about lots of communities around the world for a
very long time that when women raise these sorts of complaints,
they are not believed. The work of making sure that
the police do not reflect that bias that is deeply
ingrained in our community is, as you say, one that
(08:13):
has got that has to be ongoing, but making and
will be ongoing. We'll be working at this and I
am a very old lady too, But the point is
that we have to make sure the systems support that
work to succeed. And that's why where we support the
Inspector General.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
I'm going to ask you very quickly, both of you,
because I've got to go to an air break. But
I really want to know this because I believe strongly
that there is a culture of looking after our own
in the police. And I think that you don't have
to walk too far down the street to have other
people agreeing with him. Tim, do you think that's a
culture that we need to get rid of.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Well, it's a good thing in the right circumstance, it's
a bad thing in the wrong one. Right, And I
think the important point to make here is that there
were police officers, courageous police officers that actually did speak up.
That's how this has come to. Like people spoke up.
The people that are still there now doing the right thing.
The information I have is definitely that all five of
those in the senior executive that were named in the
(09:12):
IPCA report have left the police. I just want to
give you what I overlook, the good people that actually
spoke up in this thing.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Can I just give you the information I got. A
police officer who wrongly labeled the accusations against Jevin mcskimming
as false still works for the police, but no longer
has anything to do with handling of evidence or interaction
with victims of crime. Crime said the police commissioner.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
That that, as I understand, that is not one of
those senior sort of deputy associate commissioners.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
All right, cool, So I should quickly because I've got
to go to an brak. Do you believe that there
is a culture within police of looking after their own That.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
Report proved there is a problem with the culture and
it's got to change.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Yeah, great, thank you.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It's Thursday and it's politics Thursday, and we have Ai
Shaviril and Tim Costley in the studio to party Maori.
Two MP's have gone sitting alone in Parliament in the
back corner. What is going to happen to Coppacini and
Fairest should there be a by election? What's going on? Aishaver?
You a meeting with Chris Hipkins all the time? They say,
(10:17):
he said not what's going on?
Speaker 5 (10:20):
I think they might have called Chris to let him
know what happened, but I think that's been the extent
of it. Well, I think this will probably continue in
the current state till the election.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
By the sound of them, you don't think there's going
to be a bie leading.
Speaker 5 (10:34):
It's my interpretation. It doesn't seem like anyone's leading towards
that they're not, and so it looks like they're happy
to sit in the at the back of Parliament for
the rest of the term and then they'll have a
decision about whether they contest the election. And you know,
it's a shame really because now more than ever, Mary
(10:55):
will feel like they need a strong voice in Parliament
and the voice that they had elected looks increasingly shaky.
So there's an opportunity for Labor to make sure we
win those when those voters back. As TPM struggles, I.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Mean, will you be looking at this and so here
we go, this is our opportunity because you're clearly out
of line with marrowd and last election.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
I mean there's no debating that.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
So is this an opportunity will debate that neck. As
I've said here previously, I think what happened as Mary
saw that they could get a two for they could
get two for the price of one. The Labor MARII
MP's were coming in on the list and they could
also get to Party Mari as their electric votes. This time,
I think that proposition will look pretty shaky with the
(11:40):
changes in TPM, and so Labor has an opportunity.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Should they be a bye election?
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Tom, Well, there so many questions and are they the
only two MP's being kicked out? I read in the
news last night about meetings taking place in Auckland with
two other Well, there's only two others that aren't co leaders.
There's not many left right, and what's going on? And they,
I mean, they are just a complete mess, you know,
two for or working with Labor or whatever. It cannot
(12:08):
be an option after the next election. And I'd love
to just hear them come out now and rule it
out because we can't work with them in this current state,
not the current raging.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
Do you need to they're ruling themselves out.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Did you get a bit of a fright?
Speaker 4 (12:21):
We should rule them out there and say, look, we're
not going to do it because New Zealand is to Look,
there's going to be a coalition government after the next
election no matter what. Let's be really clear about who's
out there. And they have just bred a culture where
everything is about fighting and it's about division, and when
there's no one else to fight, they fight themselves. Sho.
Speaker 5 (12:40):
I think it's unfair to reflect on the last two
years and not also acknowledge that there has been a
massive rollback of rights for Mari and health and education
and local government and the care and protection of children.
The economic times that particularly hit Mary. They are struggling
(13:02):
more than anyone else amongst the job losses. I think
to characterize the challenges in Mary politics as Tim just
did is unfair.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Mary now love But I'd love to come out and
talk about this, like, where are they saying, yes, we
want to see structured literacy ms because that will lift
achievement amongst Maori kids. Where are they coming out and
fighting for some of these social issues They're not. They
the number one issue on that, on the on the
Big Treaty Principles Bill, which was terrible bill and we
didn't support it. But but the number one issue on
(13:33):
that was they won a separate Maori government. That's what
the couple king is put as number one. And they
had bred people into the Maori Party that we're going
to campaign on really extreme stuff. Remember, they only got
three percent of the vote at the last election.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
This is not even the.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Majority of Maori voting for them. But they bred a
culture where they just went so far and so hard.
Just come out and say you won't wear with them.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
But you just agreed with me. You just agreed with
me about the fact that Marty didn't vote overwhelmingly for
TPM at the last.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Yes, so rule them out. Say you're going to go
hard and you're going to win.
Speaker 5 (14:05):
The look a lot long way from government right now,
that's absolutely the case. And as I've said, there's an
opportunity for us because these are sues mighty facing, are
very serious, and on the issue of job losses, I mean,
I think Labor has the most credible, has been the
most credible opposition party, and that is really impacting.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
But if they were the only way to get into government,
would you.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Work with him?
Speaker 5 (14:24):
Well that's not that. There's a long way to go
before the election, Tim, and so we'll all put our stall.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Out before then, all right, talking about coalitions, because this
is a very interesting one for me. Winston Peters has
come out and said he's not going to have a
bar of asset sales. Prime Minister wants to look at
it and wants to do it seriously. Now there's history here.
I mean, basically, Winston Peter's got kicked out of the
coalition and Deputy Prime when he didn't want the sale.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Of assets before under Jenny Shipley.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Now you might be having to look at sea finding
a new coalition partner of the Prime Minister wants to
sell the Walker and Winston Peters doesn't want to.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Well, we're not selling anything in this term, right, that's
part of our coalition agreement. That's how we've held it.
And I think this is what the PM's done so
well holding that car.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Is talking about it if it doesn't want to.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Oh, we have to have a mature conversation about what
the future could look like because it's not about getting
rid of assets. It's about upscaling, right, It's about saying,
you know, we need to sell.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
I want to sell. He wants to buy more. Upscaling
is buying more.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
Absolutely, it's about you sell one thing that's not working
for you to get something else. We all do this
in our homes, right, which is that cause of bit
old it costs too much to run. I'm going to
sell that so I can put that money towards a
new car that's going to be more cost effective to run.
I want to get an electric car, whatever it might be.
We need to do the same as a government. That
is the whole point. You know later saying they're modeling
themselves on the Singapore Future Fund, That's exactly what it does.
(15:43):
It's about saying. It's not saying we're just going to
get rid of all assets and sit on a big
pile of cash like Scrooge McDuck. It's about saying, we're
going to use the equity, the capital we have in
one asset to go and buy something else that will
work for all New Zealanders.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I shoul where do you stand on this? How does
labor sit on asset sales?
Speaker 5 (16:01):
Well, our proposal is not to sell assets and to
make sure that we put some of our assets in
the New Zealand Future Fund, which is the opportunity for
New Zealand to take control of its future. Currently, the
income from our assets goes to general expenditure hospitals and
schools and so on important things.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
We're going to take that money from the school.
Speaker 5 (16:23):
Oportunity we would like to create is to have some
of those dividends that in the Future Fund and over
time allow more investment in New Zealand as that grows.
So some of these challenges we have and building infrastructure
and investing in our productive firms and growing our economy
here that we can address over the longer term.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
So that's important, right because she's just said what we're
going to do. We're not going to sell an asset
that's not working for us to get new money to
invest into productive ones. We're going to take it from
what would have otherwise been general expenses. It's coming from
schools and hospitals, to quote her, schools and hospitals to
go to put into a select group of these new
productive things, which they'll tell us after the election what
(17:04):
they are, but they won't tell us now.
Speaker 5 (17:05):
Well, the issue is that all of these assets are
not working strategically for us at the moment, and the
dividends just go into general expenditure and we never benefit
from being able to grow our assets over time.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
So, but there were less money for schools and hospitals, right.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
Well, you'll see how much money there is for schools
and hospitals, but it's been.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Coming out of the general fund. Where does the money
come from if you don't sell something.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
The point the difference between National and Labor is that
National sees these assets is a way of funding general
expenditure and we see them as a strategic asset that
we need to grow. And for example, when John Key
sold assets previous previously, he did it just to prop
up the baselines so that he could essentially, you keep,
you sell bits of the house in order to be
(17:50):
able to pay for tomorrow's groceries.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
No, that paid for things like Transmission Gully, the new
Capity Expressway, the cycle lane cycle ways across New Zealand,
a lift tourism. But you know, if we want to
build new hospitals and schools, we need money.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
We're running out of time.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
I'd love to that conversation going, but we've only got
a few more minutes. So I want to ask you
about drug testing because new drug testing is going to
be rolled out and it's starting at Wellington.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
We're number one. Oh sure, how does a science work
on this? And you would have had a look at this.
Don't laugh about you're a doctor. You know whether it's
going to work or not.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
I do love coming in for a quiz. The challenge
when I looked at this in cabinet is with every
test you do, there's people who test positive and they've
been using drugs. There's people who test positive and they
haven't been using drugs. They are false positive. And there's
people who have false negatives as well, and so that's
(18:45):
the issue. How much How does the system resolve those
for those people? Do people get pinged done fairly? Do
some people slip through the net?
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Why did you not bring this in when you talk to.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
These issues exactly? These issues? They were so complicated. So look,
we were not opposed to it. If they can make
it work and we'll see and can make sure that
people aren't unfairly pained, fine, then I think that's that's
a positive development.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Now you would have been drug tested now and again
because you flew helicopters, so you would have actually had
to be tested.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Yep, correct, correct, Yes, maybe you should test all MP's
there's a starting point, it'd be great.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Look, I think I wanted to party Marria, don't turn
up in comparliament, but we haven't.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
Seen any of this week. Look, I just think we
have to do something right and I and I accept's
advice on the on the medical side of the testing,
but look, ninety three people being killed from drug related driving.
There's too many. We've got to do something.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Thank you both very much.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Talking about to party Marria, because people have been telling
me that all the time that they hardly ever turned
up to parliament.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
That is that correct? I mean you guys are there?
Are they? Are they there regularly?
Speaker 4 (19:55):
Look well, if you look at the two that have
been expelled, Miss KAPAKINGI actually is probably the present the
most out of everyone. She would often be the only
one there for an entire day. Mister Ferris hardly ever said.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Really don't we pay them yep to be there?
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Well, people get to choose what to vote for at
the next election.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
You should be the speaker, should have restriction if you're
not turning up to work, And why don't you have
to work?
Speaker 3 (20:20):
I don't get paid.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Well.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
The thing to be accountable to the voters about is
about how you are getting things done. So are you
getting things done by being present in your community listening
to them, or are you getting things done in parliament?
So they need that cases for them to make.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Okay, thank you both very much. We're run over time
and I know that you're very both very busy. I
really appreciate you both coming and it's lovely to talk
to you. Have a great, great weekend. The weather's getting better.
You know, we're apparently getting all much better. We're making
more money. You know, we're all everything's working out better.
Don't look at me like that, Ice Strap, don't look
at me like that. Happy to Tim Costley and I Severel.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Thank you enjoying here
Speaker 1 (20:59):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, Listen live
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