December 2, 2025 • 20 mins
Labour Leader and MP for Rimutaka, Chris Hipkins joins Nick Mills in the studio for their final monthly catch up for 2025.
Hipkins discusses the mood in Labour before the end of the year and after the Labour conference in Auckland. He explains the new GP clinic loan scheme and discusses his thoughts on the rates cap and regional council changes from the Government.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from news Talk said, b we have.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Got a special guest in the studio listening to a
bit of Christmas stuff, trying to get in the Christmas spirit.
Labor leader Chris Hipkins joins us. Good morning, Chris, gooday, Nick?
How are you great? Thank you? Firstly, just want to
congratulate you on your announcement. Do you engage and have
got about to get married again?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I think, of course, I haven't been in here since
we announced that. No, it's been lovely.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Next year.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
We've had some really amazing, lovely feedback from people across
the country. Even people who don't vote for us have
been coming up and saying, don't vote for you, but
it's lovely that you're engaged, so you know, it's a
nice thing.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Did you tell them to change their attitude?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yeah, that's right. Then I use that as an opening
to then say, well, why are you voting for us?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
All right, so let's start with the Labor Party conference
last weekend. What was the vibe, what was the mood?
It looked pretty glamorous for a Labor Party conference. I
mean you had the big screens, the lights, the techno.
You had the whole show, You had the nine yards there,
didn't you.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
It was a very perfect, actually run conference and you know,
a very upbeat mood in the Labor team, but also
no complacency whatsoever. Everybody in the team knows that yet
we can win the next election, but no one's saying that.
We're going to everyone saying we can and we've got
to get out there and earn it.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
When will you sort of give us a little bit
more clarity on who you'll work with, who you won't
work When will let all that startup so we can
sort of really then? You know you'd saying just before
you want people to vote for you, but they've got
to know where you where you guys stand, don't they.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I understand why people are interested in this, it's a natural.
My goal between now and the next election is to
get Labors vote as high as I possibly can. And
you know, the higher I get the vote, that fewer
other parties we'd need to work with. We'll set out
closer to the election where we think we've got common
ground with other parties and where we clearly haven't. Because
(01:56):
I think these need to be principal decisions a lot
of those other parties are shifting their policy positions pretty
rapidly on a variety of issues at the moment. You know,
three weeks ago New Zealand fir Is voted in favor
of the Regulatory sty and It's bill. Now they're saying
they'll oppose it. So when we get to the election campaign,
I'll set out Look, these are the areas where we've
got common ground with these parties, these are the areas
where we can't work with them, and we'll set all
(02:17):
that out for the electorate.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Would you step down if it came to it, and
with New Zealand first of Peters's I'll join it on,
but I want Hanarius the leader, or I want to
steal done. Would you be prepared to do that?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
No, because that's not New Zealand's first call. You know, ultimately,
if New Zealanders vote to put labor.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Even if it would stop labor from me, if.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
New Zealanders vote to put labor in a position to
form government with me as the leader, Winston Peters doesn't
have a right to veto that.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
And I think they're not putting you in a position
to leader, putting you to in a position that you
can form a leadership if you joined forces with another party.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
I think New Zealand. I think New Zealanders are second
tired of having Winston Peters and David Seymour calling all
of the shots and holding the country to ransom. So
I'm not going to buy into that.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
So absolutely Labours stand on it is don't care nonunder
no circumstances are we dealing with you and first come coalition?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
The leadership of any political party is not a matter
for other political parties.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
No, but that wasn't quite the question. The question was
and under no circumstances will you form a coalition with
New Zealand first?
Speaker 3 (03:21):
That's certainly not the question. So I've said that we'll
set out closer to the election who we would and
wouldn't work with right, and we'll know that when oh
much closer to the elect do you still feel that
you've got a chance of actually getting enough votes to
actually lead on your own?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I think.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Forming a majority under m MP is pretty unusual. We've
done it once, but that was in pretty extraordinary circumstances.
So you do need to be open to working with
other parties.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
If you were if it was down to one He's
an interesting question. I'm not going to get an answer
from you. But if it was down to one Greens
or to Party Marri, either one of them can form
a government with you, which way would you go?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Again, I'm not going to send any of that out
until closer to that. In no position to even have
those conversations at the moment. It's not even clear that
there is one to party, Marji. They've got seem to
have a variety of factions, you know, fanning out around
the country at the moment, so they're in no position to.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
You can't tell me that just that two o'clock in
the morning, when you've woken up under stress, you haven't
thought about that actual question. I mean, gosh, who would
I feel more comfortable with? Oh?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
It all depends on a lot of things that can
change between now and the election. You know, Labor's polling
in the high thirties. Now, if you'd asked me two
years ago we were polling in the high twenties, it
would have been a different conversation. A lot can happen,
you know, if we get our polling up into the forties,
for example, it's a different conversation to have our pollings
in the thirties.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
So does it feel like you're gathering momentum? Does it
really feel like you know, because what I saw on
TV last night yesterday and you know, it didn't show
that to me. But does it feel like you're actually
gathering it? There?
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Does seem to be and we feel it a decisive
mood shift around Labor. A lot of people who didn't
vote for us last time and now saying, hey, look,
we're open to voting for you next time. Didn't vote
for your last time, did vote for you the time
before that, open to voting for you again? But what
are you offering?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
And so that's a really good place for us to
be in. You're obviously really trying your hardest. You're always
in Auckland yourself. You're obviously trying to get those numbers.
That's where you know, we know, that's where where it
will be decided. So you had your conference in Auckland.
Is that you know obvious? Is that where you're targeting.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
There's a basic I guess law of numbers here. Neither
Labor nor National will be in a position to lead
a government without getting strong support in Auckland. Just look
at the population demographics. That doesn't mean we're not all
around the rest of the country as well. I mean
I've been all over the country this year, visiting the regions,
spent plenty of time in the South Island. I mean
National seems to have given up on the South Island.
(05:44):
We've spent plenty of time down there. We want to
win every vote we possibly can.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
What are the numbers like at the crops, people actually
turning up and spending, and the donations and the money side.
Was it all positive?
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Donation sides looking good? Fundraising's looking good. Attendance was higher
than we'd anticipated. Crowded a bit of a problem for us.
We couldn't fit everybody into the venue that we'd booked.
So the theater that we did a lot of our
stuff and has a seeding capacity of six hundred and
we had to have overflow rooms because people couldn't all
fit in. So a nice problem.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
To have one last question on that and then I'll
move on leadership. No one's talking. No one's I mean,
Hanari keeps putting his nose and they're saying he's meeting
with Winston and a few things have been happening, and
no one's challenging. You've got nothing in the background, You've
got no fish and chip meetings going on in the backgroup.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I think those comments from Foreign Penny have been beaten
up a little bit. I'm absolutely confident that Peni's one
hundred percent behind me as the leader. We work very
well together. We talk to each other all the time.
He is talking to Winston Peter's about foreign affairs issues.
I've asked him to do that. I don't think foreign
affairs is something that we should make into a political
football if we can avoid it now. I do disagree
with some of the positions this government have taken on issues,
(06:53):
particularly the US China conflict, but overall, I think if
we can find common ground on foreign afairs, that's better
for the long term future of the country.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Can I just quickly ask you, because we've just done
it as a topic number of I don't know whether
you've read the story about school principles, but the number
of them leaving after their first year is one in five.
And we had a ex school principle before Karen Morgan,
and she said, one of the issues is the change
of government, change of rules, change of everything. Could we
(07:24):
look at doing a little bit more bi partisanship with education,
so we knew where we were at.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
I tried very hard to do that as a Minister
of Education. So if you take secondary school care of
Morgan's a former secondary school principal. We did a review
of the NCAA. We all agreed it needed to change.
We consulted extensively, including with the National Party. They were
involved in the decision making process. There we got something
that everyone was happy with now. Of course, then COVID
came along and that all got put on hold while
(07:50):
schools dealt with COVID. Then there was a change of
government and they basically said no, no, we're not going
to stick with that. We're going to do something completely different.
And the problem with that is, you know, a bipartisan
approach only works if people agree to stick with it.
If one party says, yeah, we'll compromise to get bipartisanship,
and then the other party says, well, we'll just walk
away from that when we're the ones in charge. It
doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
But will you change it? Will you change what they're
doing now if you become government at the end of
the next year.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
I want to see education be less political than it
is at the moment. I think the current government have
made a lot of these things, particularly around things like
the curriculum, what kids learn, and assessment. They've made them
into big politically.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Quite through My question, would you be able to give
the people the assurance that it will be stable, it
won't be changed just because you have become government.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Well, I've always taken the view on education policy that
if you make decisions based on good research and good
evidence of what's actually going to work, not necessarily what's
the best politically, but what's actually going to be best
for kids in for education, that should be enduring, right,
Because if you're making decisions on.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Would you go as far as to admit that their
changes are working?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Some of their changes are highly political. Some of the
things that they're doing build on work that we'd already started,
So the literacy, the better start on literacy. We'd already
got all that work underway and it is starting to
deliver results, and I think that that's a very encouraging thing.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Great, take a short break. We're lucky enough to have
Chrisipkins in the studio for half an hour, so we'll
try and get onto some more topics, a bit more quickly.
It's my fault, not yours, a minister, We'll sort it out.
We'll sort it out right now. Chrisippins in the studio,
we're talking, having a bit of a chat. This is
the last time we get before Christmas.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
It is I think it might be our last chat
before Chris. Okay, here is Christmas.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Let's talk. We'll fin with some niceties. Let's start this
particular segment on this idea that you're going to fund
gps into owning their own practice. Now, I love this idea.
I thought it was a great idea, but I wondered
why you didn't widen it out, because in my experience,
and I've talked to a couple of GPS that says,
you know, I love being a GP, but I don't
(09:55):
want the hassle of a mortgage or a loan or
a lease or all that sort of stuff. Why didn't
you widen it out?
Speaker 3 (10:00):
What we want to do is get back to the
idea of locally owned sort of GP family practices. I
am concerned about the growing court retization of healthcare. And
if you look here in the Marketain well, if you
look here in the Wellington region, in my area of
Upper huts where you know, there's been a big sort
of buy up of the GP practices by the corporate providers.
There's been a reduction in healthcare services as a result
of that. As they basically chase the dollar, they look
(10:23):
at how to deliver services most efficiently. There's now no
after hours clinic because they decided it was cheaper to
contract that out to lower huts, and ultimately it's led
to a dimunition, you know, decrease in healthcare available. So
I want to get back to that idea of family
GP practices where they can really focus on the needs
of their local community so they have a connection with them.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Is that a bit of the success? I mean, if
we look at private versus public private hospitals, we know
do it better than public hospitals, So why would there
have to be an issue with it? And if you
were going to fund those things for the betterment of health,
why wouldn't someone fund a twenty four hour, seven day
a week after service in Wellington, christ Church, Auckland, you know, Hamilton,
(11:02):
New Plymouth.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
There's any more discussion to have around after ours. So
I watch the space, But overall, the feedback we're getting
from a lot of young GPS is that they do
want to be in a position to take over a
GP practice, but getting access to that finance is the
big hurdle for them.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
So we've got it.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
We're going to have because we increase the number of
trainee places at our med schools for new doctors, they're
going to start coming out the other end of the
system in twenty twenty eight, I think it is, so,
you know, not not too far away, and we want
them to be able to buy into practices. So we
want them going into general practice being able to buy
into practices because there's a lot of GPS now nearing
(11:38):
retirement age who want to sell out. And if the
next generation can't afford to buy in, then we're going
to have a really big problem. Well, fifty make a difference,
oh fifty a year, So you stack that up year
on year and you start to actually get some quite
big numbers.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Right, National wants to see a two to four percent
rates cap, Well, they don't want to see it. They're
going to bring it in. But in twenty twenty one,
what would labor do differently on this and would they
actually be real smart and say, actually, we'll bring it
in sooner than that.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
No one's no one likes paying higher rates, Let's be
clear about that. And I totally hear the pain that
households are experiencing because of high rates rises. My concern
is that they're not being clear with the public about
where's the money going to come from if not through rates.
So councils do have to do stuff. You know, the
pipes need to be replaced, the roads need to be resealed,
the park but even you rounds need to be mode.
(12:25):
You know, if you can't afford to pay for that,
how are they going to fund that if not through rates.
So totally fine to say, actually we think that, you know,
the rates burdens getting too much for people. I kept
a lot of sympathy for that argument. But you've still
got to pay for all the things that we want
councils to do.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Once again, I'm going to ask you, would you overturn that.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
We've still got to see a bit more from the government.
I've asked a lot of questions of them. You know,
we've only seen this in the last couple of days,
but my questions from them is pretty clear. You want
councils to fund these roads. You want them to fund
pothole replacement. You want them to fund all of these
other things, water replacement. Where's the money going to come
from if not through rates? But that's the question that
the government aren't.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Surely governments need to look after their people. I mean,
and you'll be hearing the stories. You can't tell me.
You wouldn't be hearing the stories of people leaving Wellington
because they can't afford the road.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
This government can't say that the rates CAP's going to
result in lower rates and lower bills for New Zealanders.
Give you a clear example here in Wellington. Most of
our councils don't charge for water, so they don't have
water meters. The government and their rates camp announcement have
said water is exempt. So if you've got water meters
and you want to charge for water, you can charge
whatever you want for water. So my pick is here
(13:36):
in Wellington, our local councils will have no choice but
to install water meters, start charging people for water, and
that the increase in cost of water will more than
offset anything any benefit households will get through the rates cap.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Wouldn't this be a golden opportunity to say, look, public
response to this has been really good. You know, we
know everybody wants their rates that we know inflations cause
because of the rate price will go earlier. We'll go,
we'll make it, we'll bring it in, and we'll bring
it in earlier. If you vote us in at the
end of next year, we'll do it the next.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Year because we've still got a responsibility to make posible
decisions and simply kicking the can further down the road
and saying to the next generation of homeowners, you guys
are going to face rates that are massively higher than
the current generation are facing because of these rates caps,
because we're basically not going to do the maintenance it
needs to be done.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
No, that's not fair. We know that councils are wasting
a lot of money, Well they don't need to waste.
Couldn't we police it in some way anyway quickly? Because
I've got to move on.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
No no problem with again looking at the quality of
council expenditure, totally do that. But rates caps without a
clear understanding of how you're going to pay for the
water infrastructure and the roads and the public services like
libraries and swimming pools, without a clear understanding of that
you potentially end up with people paying more.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Councils are forecasting of forty seven point nine billion dollars
in water infrastructure to spend over the next decade under
the Local Water Done Well framework. Does Labor believe councils
can realistically shoulder that level of cost? And if not,
what would your alternative be? Apart from bringing three waters
back in well?
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Local Water done well's proven to be a complete hoax.
Remember National said that they save as much money as
our affordable water reforms we're going to do, but still
leave communities in charge of it. Well, now, first of all,
it's costing more money and they're actually taking the power
away from councils. So if you look at the stuff
they're doing around regional councils where they're basically saying we're
going to force local government amalgamations.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
And all of that.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
They'd weren't clear with the public about that before the election,
when they were talking about localism and leaving decisions to
the locals.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
You know that that's going to happen, though, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
I suspect that you know their real agenda here is
amalgamation by stealth.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
But that's isn't that a good thing? Isn't that once
again a good thing? I mean, surely you're an Upper
Hut guy. I'm an Wellington guy. I think I want
to be part of Upper Hut and I want Upper
Hut to be part of us.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
I've been very clear I support local government reorganization in
the Wellington area. If the current government want that, they
should come out and say that, rather than this bizarre
process we've got now where they're trying to say to councils,
you have to make those decisions, but you have to
make them according to what we want. But we're not
going to tell you what we want. I mean, it's
I think they've just made a real mess of things.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
But we know that that's what the intention is, and
we know that's going to happen. I mean, I get
that gut failing, don't you.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Well.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
I guess in my gut this looks a lot like
amalgamation by stealth.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
But they should just be upfront if.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
They want amalgamation, say they want algamation.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
You said the intent behind the government's regional councils reforms
isn't clear. If labor were in powered tomorrow, would you
keep regional counsels.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Certainly, I wouldn't go down the road that they're going
down with the proposal to sort of to gut regional
councils in their current form. We're going to work through
what they're proposing at the moment see if we can
find some common ground with them. And we haven't had
the chance as a team to meet and talk about
these proposals since they were announced. If we can find
(16:49):
common ground, that would be better, I think for stability
for the country. But I am pretty concerned that it's
a bit of a haphazard proposal they've put out there.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
I'm kind of concerned because only a few months ago,
maybe a year ago, when we started having these you
were really convincing to me that when you became your
word's not mine. When you become prime minister, you're not
going to swap things back and change things back and
change things back for the sake of it. You're going
to go in with your eyes wide open. Is that
changing as time goes on?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Come?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
It certainly feels that way.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
No, And what you heard from me just now say,
if we can find common ground with them, I think
that will be better. But at the moment, I think
this proposal looks like a bit of a dog's breakfast.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
See, I don't see the need for a regional council,
especially if we amalgamate well I.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Mean, if you look at Auckland, right, So the way
they dealt with that is that all of the council's
got amalgamated together. So if that's what the government want
to do, say for Wellington and so we're not going
to have a Wellington Regional Council because we're going to
amalgamate all of the councils together and just have one
unitary authority for all of Wellington. I'd actually have some
sympathy for that argument, but that doesn't seem to be
what they're saying. They're saying we're going to have this
kind of hybrid regional council and still the local councils.
(17:58):
I don't see how that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Labour must have some preference on how that all works out, though.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Well, I mean I have a personal view on the
Wellington region, which is I think the amalgamation makes up
for the out of the country.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Do you have any feeling because it'll be you know,
why a rapper, you know, everywhere you go, the capity
everywhere you go. You could do amalgamation and clean things
up less and costs, make things more efficient.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Do we think there's going to be fewer councils? Yes,
I think absolutely. What's our policy on that world? We'll
announce that next year.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
What have you got anything big coming out before Christmas?
Have you got any big policies? Or are you just
going to try and get over Christmas and then start
come out come out fighting? Am I speaking to the
wrong person? Side? Give? I think I've got Karen's number
on the phone.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
And I said we were going to do three big
policies this year, and we've done that. We'll have more
policy next year. So our focus between now and the
end of the year is really selling the policies that
we've already announced. You know, three free doctors visits been
very very well received. The establishment of the Future Fund.
People are really talking about that and I think excited
that possibilities for that basically, you know, a future made
(18:59):
in New Zealand, creating jobs in New Zealand. At my
job between now and Christmas is to keep selling that message.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Christmas plan have a bit of a break at the beach, right,
got a message for New Zealanders got message for Wellingtonians
for Christmas.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Look, it's been a really tough year for Kiwi's. I
do hope that wherever you are across the region that
you get an opportunity to have a bit of a
rest and a bit of a breakover the summer. Let's
hope we have better weather than we did last Christmas.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
What do you think next year is going to be like?
Because it's an election year, we have a lolly scramble.
Do you think it's going to be better next year
than it is this year?
Speaker 3 (19:30):
I think it's still going to be very tough year economically,
and the real risk is that the economy will get
better for some but not for most. And the real
risk I think in the economic commentary we're seeing at
the moment as the commentators are focused on the small
number of people who are going to do well out
of that, and they're ignoring the majority of people who
are still really struggling well.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
The Black Friday sales is a classic example of that,
and it's six percent down on last year, and last
year was we all said was a terrible year.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
So at the individual household level, people are still struggling
and so the economists can sit there steering at their
computer screens and say, hey, look that line's moving upwards.
Everything's getting better. It doesn't feel that way for those
sitting around the kitchen table trying to balance their budgets.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Thank you for all your time you speak with us
on the show and listen talking to the Valentonians. I
appreciate you taking the time out. Have a really good
Christmas for you and your family, and we'll talk next year.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
And to you too. I hope you get a break
as well. Nick.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Thanks Chris Hopkins. Not only is he the labor leader,
but he's what is it romatuka ramatucka in p for
cod I forgot for a second, I knew he was
a hutboy.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news Talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from news Talk said, b we have.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Got a special guest in the studio listening to a
bit of Christmas stuff, trying to get in the Christmas spirit.
Labor leader Chris Hipkins joins us. Good morning, Chris, gooday, Nick?
How are you great? Thank you? Firstly, just want to
congratulate you on your announcement. Do you engage and have
got about to get married again?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I think, of course, I haven't been in here since
we announced that. No, it's been lovely.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Next year.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
We've had some really amazing, lovely feedback from people across
the country. Even people who don't vote for us have
been coming up and saying, don't vote for you, but
it's lovely that you're engaged, so you know, it's a
nice thing.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Did you tell them to change their attitude?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yeah, that's right. Then I use that as an opening
to then say, well, why are you voting for us?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
All right, so let's start with the Labor Party conference
last weekend. What was the vibe, what was the mood?
It looked pretty glamorous for a Labor Party conference. I
mean you had the big screens, the lights, the techno.
You had the whole show, You had the nine yards there,
didn't you.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
It was a very perfect, actually run conference and you know,
a very upbeat mood in the Labor team, but also
no complacency whatsoever. Everybody in the team knows that yet
we can win the next election, but no one's saying that.
We're going to everyone saying we can and we've got
to get out there and earn it.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
When will you sort of give us a little bit
more clarity on who you'll work with, who you won't
work When will let all that startup so we can
sort of really then? You know you'd saying just before
you want people to vote for you, but they've got
to know where you where you guys stand, don't they.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I understand why people are interested in this, it's a natural.
My goal between now and the next election is to
get Labors vote as high as I possibly can. And
you know, the higher I get the vote, that fewer
other parties we'd need to work with. We'll set out
closer to the election where we think we've got common
ground with other parties and where we clearly haven't. Because
(01:56):
I think these need to be principal decisions a lot
of those other parties are shifting their policy positions pretty
rapidly on a variety of issues at the moment. You know,
three weeks ago New Zealand fir Is voted in favor
of the Regulatory sty and It's bill. Now they're saying
they'll oppose it. So when we get to the election campaign,
I'll set out Look, these are the areas where we've
got common ground with these parties, these are the areas
where we can't work with them, and we'll set all
(02:17):
that out for the electorate.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Would you step down if it came to it, and
with New Zealand first of Peters's I'll join it on,
but I want Hanarius the leader, or I want to
steal done. Would you be prepared to do that?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
No, because that's not New Zealand's first call. You know, ultimately,
if New Zealanders vote to put labor.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Even if it would stop labor from me, if.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
New Zealanders vote to put labor in a position to
form government with me as the leader, Winston Peters doesn't
have a right to veto that.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
And I think they're not putting you in a position
to leader, putting you to in a position that you
can form a leadership if you joined forces with another party.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
I think New Zealand. I think New Zealanders are second
tired of having Winston Peters and David Seymour calling all
of the shots and holding the country to ransom. So
I'm not going to buy into that.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
So absolutely Labours stand on it is don't care nonunder
no circumstances are we dealing with you and first come coalition?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
The leadership of any political party is not a matter
for other political parties.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
No, but that wasn't quite the question. The question was
and under no circumstances will you form a coalition with
New Zealand first?
Speaker 3 (03:21):
That's certainly not the question. So I've said that we'll
set out closer to the election who we would and
wouldn't work with right, and we'll know that when oh
much closer to the elect do you still feel that
you've got a chance of actually getting enough votes to
actually lead on your own?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I think.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Forming a majority under m MP is pretty unusual. We've
done it once, but that was in pretty extraordinary circumstances.
So you do need to be open to working with
other parties.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
If you were if it was down to one He's
an interesting question. I'm not going to get an answer
from you. But if it was down to one Greens
or to Party Marri, either one of them can form
a government with you, which way would you go?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Again, I'm not going to send any of that out
until closer to that. In no position to even have
those conversations at the moment. It's not even clear that
there is one to party, Marji. They've got seem to
have a variety of factions, you know, fanning out around
the country at the moment, so they're in no position to.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
You can't tell me that just that two o'clock in
the morning, when you've woken up under stress, you haven't
thought about that actual question. I mean, gosh, who would
I feel more comfortable with? Oh?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
It all depends on a lot of things that can
change between now and the election. You know, Labor's polling
in the high thirties. Now, if you'd asked me two
years ago we were polling in the high twenties, it
would have been a different conversation. A lot can happen,
you know, if we get our polling up into the forties,
for example, it's a different conversation to have our pollings
in the thirties.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
So does it feel like you're gathering momentum? Does it
really feel like you know, because what I saw on
TV last night yesterday and you know, it didn't show
that to me. But does it feel like you're actually
gathering it? There?
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Does seem to be and we feel it a decisive
mood shift around Labor. A lot of people who didn't
vote for us last time and now saying, hey, look,
we're open to voting for you next time. Didn't vote
for your last time, did vote for you the time
before that, open to voting for you again? But what
are you offering?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
And so that's a really good place for us to
be in. You're obviously really trying your hardest. You're always
in Auckland yourself. You're obviously trying to get those numbers.
That's where you know, we know, that's where where it
will be decided. So you had your conference in Auckland.
Is that you know obvious? Is that where you're targeting.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
There's a basic I guess law of numbers here. Neither
Labor nor National will be in a position to lead
a government without getting strong support in Auckland. Just look
at the population demographics. That doesn't mean we're not all
around the rest of the country as well. I mean
I've been all over the country this year, visiting the regions,
spent plenty of time in the South Island. I mean
National seems to have given up on the South Island.
(05:44):
We've spent plenty of time down there. We want to
win every vote we possibly can.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
What are the numbers like at the crops, people actually
turning up and spending, and the donations and the money side.
Was it all positive?
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Donation sides looking good? Fundraising's looking good. Attendance was higher
than we'd anticipated. Crowded a bit of a problem for us.
We couldn't fit everybody into the venue that we'd booked.
So the theater that we did a lot of our
stuff and has a seeding capacity of six hundred and
we had to have overflow rooms because people couldn't all
fit in. So a nice problem.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
To have one last question on that and then I'll
move on leadership. No one's talking. No one's I mean,
Hanari keeps putting his nose and they're saying he's meeting
with Winston and a few things have been happening, and
no one's challenging. You've got nothing in the background, You've
got no fish and chip meetings going on in the backgroup.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I think those comments from Foreign Penny have been beaten
up a little bit. I'm absolutely confident that Peni's one
hundred percent behind me as the leader. We work very
well together. We talk to each other all the time.
He is talking to Winston Peter's about foreign affairs issues.
I've asked him to do that. I don't think foreign
affairs is something that we should make into a political
football if we can avoid it now. I do disagree
with some of the positions this government have taken on issues,
(06:53):
particularly the US China conflict, but overall, I think if
we can find common ground on foreign afairs, that's better
for the long term future of the country.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Can I just quickly ask you, because we've just done
it as a topic number of I don't know whether
you've read the story about school principles, but the number
of them leaving after their first year is one in five.
And we had a ex school principle before Karen Morgan,
and she said, one of the issues is the change
of government, change of rules, change of everything. Could we
(07:24):
look at doing a little bit more bi partisanship with education,
so we knew where we were at.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
I tried very hard to do that as a Minister
of Education. So if you take secondary school care of
Morgan's a former secondary school principal. We did a review
of the NCAA. We all agreed it needed to change.
We consulted extensively, including with the National Party. They were
involved in the decision making process. There we got something
that everyone was happy with now. Of course, then COVID
came along and that all got put on hold while
(07:50):
schools dealt with COVID. Then there was a change of
government and they basically said no, no, we're not going
to stick with that. We're going to do something completely different.
And the problem with that is, you know, a bipartisan
approach only works if people agree to stick with it.
If one party says, yeah, we'll compromise to get bipartisanship,
and then the other party says, well, we'll just walk
away from that when we're the ones in charge. It
doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
But will you change it? Will you change what they're
doing now if you become government at the end of
the next year.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
I want to see education be less political than it
is at the moment. I think the current government have
made a lot of these things, particularly around things like
the curriculum, what kids learn, and assessment. They've made them
into big politically.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Quite through My question, would you be able to give
the people the assurance that it will be stable, it
won't be changed just because you have become government.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Well, I've always taken the view on education policy that
if you make decisions based on good research and good
evidence of what's actually going to work, not necessarily what's
the best politically, but what's actually going to be best
for kids in for education, that should be enduring, right,
Because if you're making decisions on.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Would you go as far as to admit that their
changes are working?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Some of their changes are highly political. Some of the
things that they're doing build on work that we'd already started,
So the literacy, the better start on literacy. We'd already
got all that work underway and it is starting to
deliver results, and I think that that's a very encouraging thing.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Great, take a short break. We're lucky enough to have
Chrisipkins in the studio for half an hour, so we'll
try and get onto some more topics, a bit more quickly.
It's my fault, not yours, a minister, We'll sort it out.
We'll sort it out right now. Chrisippins in the studio,
we're talking, having a bit of a chat. This is
the last time we get before Christmas.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
It is I think it might be our last chat
before Chris. Okay, here is Christmas.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Let's talk. We'll fin with some niceties. Let's start this
particular segment on this idea that you're going to fund
gps into owning their own practice. Now, I love this idea.
I thought it was a great idea, but I wondered
why you didn't widen it out, because in my experience,
and I've talked to a couple of GPS that says,
you know, I love being a GP, but I don't
(09:55):
want the hassle of a mortgage or a loan or
a lease or all that sort of stuff. Why didn't
you widen it out?
Speaker 3 (10:00):
What we want to do is get back to the
idea of locally owned sort of GP family practices. I
am concerned about the growing court retization of healthcare. And
if you look here in the Marketain well, if you
look here in the Wellington region, in my area of
Upper huts where you know, there's been a big sort
of buy up of the GP practices by the corporate providers.
There's been a reduction in healthcare services as a result
of that. As they basically chase the dollar, they look
(10:23):
at how to deliver services most efficiently. There's now no
after hours clinic because they decided it was cheaper to
contract that out to lower huts, and ultimately it's led
to a dimunition, you know, decrease in healthcare available. So
I want to get back to that idea of family
GP practices where they can really focus on the needs
of their local community so they have a connection with them.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Is that a bit of the success? I mean, if
we look at private versus public private hospitals, we know
do it better than public hospitals, So why would there
have to be an issue with it? And if you
were going to fund those things for the betterment of health,
why wouldn't someone fund a twenty four hour, seven day
a week after service in Wellington, christ Church, Auckland, you know, Hamilton,
(11:02):
New Plymouth.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
There's any more discussion to have around after ours. So
I watch the space, But overall, the feedback we're getting
from a lot of young GPS is that they do
want to be in a position to take over a
GP practice, but getting access to that finance is the
big hurdle for them.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
So we've got it.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
We're going to have because we increase the number of
trainee places at our med schools for new doctors, they're
going to start coming out the other end of the
system in twenty twenty eight, I think it is, so,
you know, not not too far away, and we want
them to be able to buy into practices. So we
want them going into general practice being able to buy
into practices because there's a lot of GPS now nearing
(11:38):
retirement age who want to sell out. And if the
next generation can't afford to buy in, then we're going
to have a really big problem. Well, fifty make a difference,
oh fifty a year, So you stack that up year
on year and you start to actually get some quite
big numbers.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Right, National wants to see a two to four percent
rates cap, Well, they don't want to see it. They're
going to bring it in. But in twenty twenty one,
what would labor do differently on this and would they
actually be real smart and say, actually, we'll bring it
in sooner than that.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
No one's no one likes paying higher rates, Let's be
clear about that. And I totally hear the pain that
households are experiencing because of high rates rises. My concern
is that they're not being clear with the public about
where's the money going to come from if not through rates.
So councils do have to do stuff. You know, the
pipes need to be replaced, the roads need to be resealed,
the park but even you rounds need to be mode.
(12:25):
You know, if you can't afford to pay for that,
how are they going to fund that if not through rates.
So totally fine to say, actually we think that, you know,
the rates burdens getting too much for people. I kept
a lot of sympathy for that argument. But you've still
got to pay for all the things that we want
councils to do.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Once again, I'm going to ask you, would you overturn that.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
We've still got to see a bit more from the government.
I've asked a lot of questions of them. You know,
we've only seen this in the last couple of days,
but my questions from them is pretty clear. You want
councils to fund these roads. You want them to fund
pothole replacement. You want them to fund all of these
other things, water replacement. Where's the money going to come
from if not through rates? But that's the question that
the government aren't.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Surely governments need to look after their people. I mean,
and you'll be hearing the stories. You can't tell me.
You wouldn't be hearing the stories of people leaving Wellington
because they can't afford the road.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
This government can't say that the rates CAP's going to
result in lower rates and lower bills for New Zealanders.
Give you a clear example here in Wellington. Most of
our councils don't charge for water, so they don't have
water meters. The government and their rates camp announcement have
said water is exempt. So if you've got water meters
and you want to charge for water, you can charge
whatever you want for water. So my pick is here
(13:36):
in Wellington, our local councils will have no choice but
to install water meters, start charging people for water, and
that the increase in cost of water will more than
offset anything any benefit households will get through the rates cap.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Wouldn't this be a golden opportunity to say, look, public
response to this has been really good. You know, we
know everybody wants their rates that we know inflations cause
because of the rate price will go earlier. We'll go,
we'll make it, we'll bring it in, and we'll bring
it in earlier. If you vote us in at the
end of next year, we'll do it the next.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Year because we've still got a responsibility to make posible
decisions and simply kicking the can further down the road
and saying to the next generation of homeowners, you guys
are going to face rates that are massively higher than
the current generation are facing because of these rates caps,
because we're basically not going to do the maintenance it
needs to be done.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
No, that's not fair. We know that councils are wasting
a lot of money, Well they don't need to waste.
Couldn't we police it in some way anyway quickly? Because
I've got to move on.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
No no problem with again looking at the quality of
council expenditure, totally do that. But rates caps without a
clear understanding of how you're going to pay for the
water infrastructure and the roads and the public services like
libraries and swimming pools, without a clear understanding of that
you potentially end up with people paying more.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Councils are forecasting of forty seven point nine billion dollars
in water infrastructure to spend over the next decade under
the Local Water Done Well framework. Does Labor believe councils
can realistically shoulder that level of cost? And if not,
what would your alternative be? Apart from bringing three waters
back in well?
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Local Water done well's proven to be a complete hoax.
Remember National said that they save as much money as
our affordable water reforms we're going to do, but still
leave communities in charge of it. Well, now, first of all,
it's costing more money and they're actually taking the power
away from councils. So if you look at the stuff
they're doing around regional councils where they're basically saying we're
going to force local government amalgamations.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
And all of that.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
They'd weren't clear with the public about that before the election,
when they were talking about localism and leaving decisions to
the locals.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
You know that that's going to happen, though, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
I suspect that you know their real agenda here is
amalgamation by stealth.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
But that's isn't that a good thing? Isn't that once
again a good thing? I mean, surely you're an Upper
Hut guy. I'm an Wellington guy. I think I want
to be part of Upper Hut and I want Upper
Hut to be part of us.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
I've been very clear I support local government reorganization in
the Wellington area. If the current government want that, they
should come out and say that, rather than this bizarre
process we've got now where they're trying to say to councils,
you have to make those decisions, but you have to
make them according to what we want. But we're not
going to tell you what we want. I mean, it's
I think they've just made a real mess of things.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
But we know that that's what the intention is, and
we know that's going to happen. I mean, I get
that gut failing, don't you.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Well.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
I guess in my gut this looks a lot like
amalgamation by stealth.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
But they should just be upfront if.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
They want amalgamation, say they want algamation.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
You said the intent behind the government's regional councils reforms
isn't clear. If labor were in powered tomorrow, would you
keep regional counsels.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Certainly, I wouldn't go down the road that they're going
down with the proposal to sort of to gut regional
councils in their current form. We're going to work through
what they're proposing at the moment see if we can
find some common ground with them. And we haven't had
the chance as a team to meet and talk about
these proposals since they were announced. If we can find
(16:49):
common ground, that would be better, I think for stability
for the country. But I am pretty concerned that it's
a bit of a haphazard proposal they've put out there.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
I'm kind of concerned because only a few months ago,
maybe a year ago, when we started having these you
were really convincing to me that when you became your
word's not mine. When you become prime minister, you're not
going to swap things back and change things back and
change things back for the sake of it. You're going
to go in with your eyes wide open. Is that
changing as time goes on?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Come?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
It certainly feels that way.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
No, And what you heard from me just now say,
if we can find common ground with them, I think
that will be better. But at the moment, I think
this proposal looks like a bit of a dog's breakfast.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
See, I don't see the need for a regional council,
especially if we amalgamate well I.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Mean, if you look at Auckland, right, So the way
they dealt with that is that all of the council's
got amalgamated together. So if that's what the government want
to do, say for Wellington and so we're not going
to have a Wellington Regional Council because we're going to
amalgamate all of the councils together and just have one
unitary authority for all of Wellington. I'd actually have some
sympathy for that argument, but that doesn't seem to be
what they're saying. They're saying we're going to have this
kind of hybrid regional council and still the local councils.
(17:58):
I don't see how that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Labour must have some preference on how that all works out, though.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Well, I mean I have a personal view on the
Wellington region, which is I think the amalgamation makes up
for the out of the country.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Do you have any feeling because it'll be you know,
why a rapper, you know, everywhere you go, the capity
everywhere you go. You could do amalgamation and clean things
up less and costs, make things more efficient.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Do we think there's going to be fewer councils? Yes,
I think absolutely. What's our policy on that world? We'll
announce that next year.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
What have you got anything big coming out before Christmas?
Have you got any big policies? Or are you just
going to try and get over Christmas and then start
come out come out fighting? Am I speaking to the
wrong person? Side? Give? I think I've got Karen's number
on the phone.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
And I said we were going to do three big
policies this year, and we've done that. We'll have more
policy next year. So our focus between now and the
end of the year is really selling the policies that
we've already announced. You know, three free doctors visits been
very very well received. The establishment of the Future Fund.
People are really talking about that and I think excited
that possibilities for that basically, you know, a future made
(18:59):
in New Zealand, creating jobs in New Zealand. At my
job between now and Christmas is to keep selling that message.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Christmas plan have a bit of a break at the beach, right,
got a message for New Zealanders got message for Wellingtonians
for Christmas.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Look, it's been a really tough year for Kiwi's. I
do hope that wherever you are across the region that
you get an opportunity to have a bit of a
rest and a bit of a breakover the summer. Let's
hope we have better weather than we did last Christmas.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
What do you think next year is going to be like?
Because it's an election year, we have a lolly scramble.
Do you think it's going to be better next year
than it is this year?
Speaker 3 (19:30):
I think it's still going to be very tough year economically,
and the real risk is that the economy will get
better for some but not for most. And the real
risk I think in the economic commentary we're seeing at
the moment as the commentators are focused on the small
number of people who are going to do well out
of that, and they're ignoring the majority of people who
are still really struggling well.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
The Black Friday sales is a classic example of that,
and it's six percent down on last year, and last
year was we all said was a terrible year.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
So at the individual household level, people are still struggling
and so the economists can sit there steering at their
computer screens and say, hey, look that line's moving upwards.
Everything's getting better. It doesn't feel that way for those
sitting around the kitchen table trying to balance their budgets.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Thank you for all your time you speak with us
on the show and listen talking to the Valentonians. I
appreciate you taking the time out. Have a really good
Christmas for you and your family, and we'll talk next year.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
And to you too. I hope you get a break
as well. Nick.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Thanks Chris Hopkins. Not only is he the labor leader,
but he's what is it romatuka ramatucka in p for
cod I forgot for a second, I knew he was
a hutboy.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news Talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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