December 16, 2025 • 8 mins
Nick Mills asks CEO of Infrastructure NZ Nick Leggett, is M-CERT a good plan?
The merger of the Ministries of transport, environment, housing and urban development and the local government's Internal Affairs, will make the new ministry M-CERT.
Nick Leggett tells us how this will effect outcomes, productivity and how the future of NZ will look from it.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk SIB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Nick Leggett is the Chief Executive Executive of Infrastructure New Zealand,
and he joins me now, good morning, Nicholas.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Merry Christmas, Nicholas.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Merry Christmas to the U. Has been a while. We
haven't had a chat for a while.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm sure you're really upset about that, Nick, but I
enjoyed our conversation topic today.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah, so when you first heard, I mean, have you
heard rumblings of this?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Yes, yes, it's sort of been on the cards for
quite a while now. And I think from the perspective
of the infrastructure industry and indeed probably kiwis, we want
to know that the government, any government, knows what it
wants to achieve. And there's that old saying about form's
(01:00):
got to follow functions. And so with the RIMA being reformed,
which we've got very high hopes for, with local government
looking like it's going to have some reform, and really critically,
I think this government and the last government picking up
the connection between where we live and where we need
(01:20):
to build and grow, being connected to transport and how
we move around. Those are critical things that need to
go together. So this new ministry is putting those local
government functions, putting the environment, you know that the RMA replacement,
putting transport and housing all together. It makes complete sense
(01:41):
because they've got an agenda around reform and change and
improvement and now they've got to ensure that those functions
of government are sit together in the same place. But
there is a warning with that neck as well, and
that is we don't want there to be slippage and
making the very big changes that are needed. If you
think about you know, Resource Management Act needed a massive overhaul.
(02:04):
There seems to be by heart than support across the aisle,
you know, from different parties and yep, we've got to
do this. We want to see more detail, but it
sounds good. We don't want that to slip and be
delayed because of the movement of bureaucratic debt chairs. So
I think it's combing on organizations like mine and as
(02:26):
well as there are a number of players that will
actually have to keep keep things moving because it's pretty
ambitious time frame, right.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, one hundred five months, six months, I mean, it's ridiculous. Nicholas,
tell me what you think about the silo. You know,
silos are a problem right with department of department and everything,
but big, big, it doesn't automatically fix that, does it.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
No, it doesn't. I mean I think you're you're absolutely right,
and it's this is where there will be. You know,
these are quite distinct functions, aren't they. You know you
think about at the moment de I a run. You
know that they're responsible for local government. Well that's that's
going to be a part of this, and we're looking
at more focus on city and regional deals, which is great.
(03:10):
Part of what the city and regional deals will do though,
is think about spatial planning, so the big sort of
multi decade plan for a region where we build things
where we want to protect the environment. That links directly
to the Ministry of Environment functions that are going in.
And then of course where you put the transport. So
(03:31):
are you're going to have light rail, are you're going
to need new foot paths or new roads? What's the
situation going to be and where? So I think what
I've got I suppose a big degree of optimism here
is that we know that this is about thinking ahead
and we know that these functions even though they're quite different,
(03:52):
and they're very siloed at the moment. The job they've
got to do together is to get using and cracking
over the long term, and so there has to be
motivation understanding first of all, and then political and sort
of leadership motivation around making them work together for the
good of the country.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
How many jobs do you reckon? I be lost, because
I mean, don't try not to tell me that we're
not going to lose jobs. This is all about trying
to save money.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Well, it's I think it is about efficiency, but look,
I've actually I'm not so sure it's about saving and
I think the saving money thing is probably the secondary
focus for the government here. It's about doing better. It's
about getting better out of the central government and department
(04:38):
functions that all taxpayers fund. And I'm look, we've got
to get out of this. I talk about this a
bit of infrastructure. We've got to get out of this
sort of fixation with saving money and cutting back what
we want. I don't care how much something costs, if
we get value that builds our economy and allows us
(04:58):
to live and continue to live as a first world
country instead of continually slipping back, which we have been doing.
I'm all for it. You've got to invest in those things.
You can't you know, cut back and expect to grow.
So I think if there are efficiencies and it's fantastic.
We all want that at a time when things are tight.
(05:20):
But more importantly, we want to know that in twenty
years time we've grown in the right places. We've built decent,
affordable homes and they're well serviced by schools and hospitals
and roads and public transport. That should be our focus. Nick.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
We've got too many portfolios and ministers, don't we. I mean,
you know, what is it eighty four?
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Probably? I mean it dismays me every time I hear that,
you know, there's a new department or a new agency.
It's a bit like you know, every time somebody in
the community has got a good idea, they form an
incorporated society. Where we do that with government. New Zealand,
for a small country, is very you know, divides itself
(06:02):
very neatly. You know, try and put the two you know,
risas together are both struggling, you know, it's impossible in
New Zealand, and so we've got to get better at cooperating. Interestingly,
I'm just up in Autucky learning about the new road,
the Autucky to Live In Expressway that's been built. There's
a real cooperative alliance going on on that, and I'm
(06:24):
just just being briefed about it.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Now.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
We've got to get better. You know. You can retain
some competition, but you can work together in New Zealand
as a country. If we're going to grow and prosper,
we've got to sort of strike that balance because other
parts of the world seem to be able to do
it better than us.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
It's always that Ministry of Works argument again, Nick, Isn't
it just keeps coming and coming and coming.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Well, yeah, look it's a thing about ministry. What I
would say to you, Nigga is I know you're a
fan of that idea, and a lot of people listening
will be as well. But the question I've got is,
what do you mean when you say in ministry works,
what are you actually talking about?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
I mean a government department that fixes the roads and
fixes infrastructure and goes from one project to another project
with the same team, cost efficiency, run by the government.
I just I kind of like it as an idea.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, Nick, Is that what I mean?
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I think we a want those things. I think you
described the thing that we want out of government, you know,
to get and do things quickly and do it efficiently
and hopefully cost effectively. But then you've got to ask yourself, well,
what's the what's the way to deliver that? And I
don't I don't know if that's a ministry of work.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
But I say it with tongue in cheek, Nick, you know,
you know I say it with.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
A lot of people say it really seriously, and I do.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Too, because it beats the hell out of Halton Hogan
being a billion dollar company, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
You know that you're not You're not against New Zealand Company,
no doing well.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
No, no, I'm not. But I'm saying that if we
had a ministry that could anyway, that's a whole different argument.
I'm getting myself in trouble here, Nick, and I know
I'm not going to win that one with you. Mary Christmas,
have a great one for you and your family. Always
great to talk to you, and you keep doing the
good job. Nick Legg at the Chief Executive Infrastructure New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to News Talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk SIB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Nick Leggett is the Chief Executive Executive of Infrastructure New Zealand,
and he joins me now, good morning, Nicholas.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Merry Christmas, Nicholas.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Merry Christmas to the U. Has been a while. We
haven't had a chat for a while.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm sure you're really upset about that, Nick, but I
enjoyed our conversation topic today.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah, so when you first heard, I mean, have you
heard rumblings of this?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Yes, yes, it's sort of been on the cards for
quite a while now. And I think from the perspective
of the infrastructure industry and indeed probably kiwis, we want
to know that the government, any government, knows what it
wants to achieve. And there's that old saying about form's
(01:00):
got to follow functions. And so with the RIMA being reformed,
which we've got very high hopes for, with local government
looking like it's going to have some reform, and really critically,
I think this government and the last government picking up
the connection between where we live and where we need
(01:20):
to build and grow, being connected to transport and how
we move around. Those are critical things that need to
go together. So this new ministry is putting those local
government functions, putting the environment, you know that the RMA replacement,
putting transport and housing all together. It makes complete sense
(01:41):
because they've got an agenda around reform and change and
improvement and now they've got to ensure that those functions
of government are sit together in the same place. But
there is a warning with that neck as well, and
that is we don't want there to be slippage and
making the very big changes that are needed. If you
think about you know, Resource Management Act needed a massive overhaul.
(02:04):
There seems to be by heart than support across the aisle,
you know, from different parties and yep, we've got to
do this. We want to see more detail, but it
sounds good. We don't want that to slip and be
delayed because of the movement of bureaucratic debt chairs. So
I think it's combing on organizations like mine and as
(02:26):
well as there are a number of players that will
actually have to keep keep things moving because it's pretty
ambitious time frame, right.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, one hundred five months, six months, I mean, it's ridiculous. Nicholas,
tell me what you think about the silo. You know,
silos are a problem right with department of department and everything,
but big, big, it doesn't automatically fix that, does it.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
No, it doesn't. I mean I think you're you're absolutely right,
and it's this is where there will be. You know,
these are quite distinct functions, aren't they. You know you
think about at the moment de I a run. You
know that they're responsible for local government. Well that's that's
going to be a part of this, and we're looking
at more focus on city and regional deals, which is great.
(03:10):
Part of what the city and regional deals will do though,
is think about spatial planning, so the big sort of
multi decade plan for a region where we build things
where we want to protect the environment. That links directly
to the Ministry of Environment functions that are going in.
And then of course where you put the transport. So
(03:31):
are you're going to have light rail, are you're going
to need new foot paths or new roads? What's the
situation going to be and where? So I think what
I've got I suppose a big degree of optimism here
is that we know that this is about thinking ahead
and we know that these functions even though they're quite different,
(03:52):
and they're very siloed at the moment. The job they've
got to do together is to get using and cracking
over the long term, and so there has to be
motivation understanding first of all, and then political and sort
of leadership motivation around making them work together for the
good of the country.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
How many jobs do you reckon? I be lost, because
I mean, don't try not to tell me that we're
not going to lose jobs. This is all about trying
to save money.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Well, it's I think it is about efficiency, but look,
I've actually I'm not so sure it's about saving and
I think the saving money thing is probably the secondary
focus for the government here. It's about doing better. It's
about getting better out of the central government and department
(04:38):
functions that all taxpayers fund. And I'm look, we've got
to get out of this. I talk about this a
bit of infrastructure. We've got to get out of this
sort of fixation with saving money and cutting back what
we want. I don't care how much something costs, if
we get value that builds our economy and allows us
(04:58):
to live and continue to live as a first world
country instead of continually slipping back, which we have been doing.
I'm all for it. You've got to invest in those things.
You can't you know, cut back and expect to grow.
So I think if there are efficiencies and it's fantastic.
We all want that at a time when things are tight.
(05:20):
But more importantly, we want to know that in twenty
years time we've grown in the right places. We've built decent,
affordable homes and they're well serviced by schools and hospitals
and roads and public transport. That should be our focus. Nick.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
We've got too many portfolios and ministers, don't we. I mean,
you know, what is it eighty four?
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Probably? I mean it dismays me every time I hear that,
you know, there's a new department or a new agency.
It's a bit like you know, every time somebody in
the community has got a good idea, they form an
incorporated society. Where we do that with government. New Zealand,
for a small country, is very you know, divides itself
(06:02):
very neatly. You know, try and put the two you know,
risas together are both struggling, you know, it's impossible in
New Zealand, and so we've got to get better at cooperating. Interestingly,
I'm just up in Autucky learning about the new road,
the Autucky to Live In Expressway that's been built. There's
a real cooperative alliance going on on that, and I'm
(06:24):
just just being briefed about it.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Now.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
We've got to get better. You know. You can retain
some competition, but you can work together in New Zealand
as a country. If we're going to grow and prosper,
we've got to sort of strike that balance because other
parts of the world seem to be able to do
it better than us.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
It's always that Ministry of Works argument again, Nick, Isn't
it just keeps coming and coming and coming.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Well, yeah, look it's a thing about ministry. What I
would say to you, Nigga is I know you're a
fan of that idea, and a lot of people listening
will be as well. But the question I've got is,
what do you mean when you say in ministry works,
what are you actually talking about?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
I mean a government department that fixes the roads and
fixes infrastructure and goes from one project to another project
with the same team, cost efficiency, run by the government.
I just I kind of like it as an idea.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, Nick, Is that what I mean?
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I think we a want those things. I think you
described the thing that we want out of government, you know,
to get and do things quickly and do it efficiently
and hopefully cost effectively. But then you've got to ask yourself, well,
what's the what's the way to deliver that? And I
don't I don't know if that's a ministry of work.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
But I say it with tongue in cheek, Nick, you know,
you know I say it with.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
A lot of people say it really seriously, and I do.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Too, because it beats the hell out of Halton Hogan
being a billion dollar company, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
You know that you're not You're not against New Zealand Company,
no doing well.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
No, no, I'm not. But I'm saying that if we
had a ministry that could anyway, that's a whole different argument.
I'm getting myself in trouble here, Nick, and I know
I'm not going to win that one with you. Mary Christmas,
have a great one for you and your family. Always
great to talk to you, and you keep doing the
good job. Nick Legg at the Chief Executive Infrastructure New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to News Talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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