December 18, 2025 • 18 mins
Finance Minister Nicola Willis joins Nick Mills live at Prefab for a look back on our economy this year.
They reflect on the year that has been, and their hopes for the next year, election year. Why is the Willis v Richardson debate not happening? Is the GDP rise a sign of hope? Nick asks Nicola Willis the big questions. And they get in the Christmas spirit with some gift giving.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said b capital.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
As promised and as delivered. Finance Minister Nichola Willis has
a coffee in one hand and a ham and cheese.
Something looks pretty damned delicious. It's not too many people
can say they have breakfast a week out from Christmas
with the Finance minister, but I can say that. Good
morning and welcome to the show, Nichola Willis.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
It is great to be on the show and wonderful
to be here at Prefab and in recognition of the
wonderful team at news Talk. I have a present for you,
Nick Mary Christmas.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
That's very nice to marry Christmas, all right, Well I
have the same. I have the same because on behalf
of us. I've got a little present for you. Now
this might be a bit cheeky. I don't want you
to take it as cheeky. I want you to take
it as fun. And there's two of them now, the
second one, right, this is the second one. You can
either give to you, your partner, husband or the Prime Minister.
(01:09):
You can make that decision. Do you go.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I think your listeners are going to want to know
what's going on here. Okay, guys, we've got an article
of clothing. It is blue, so it's an appropriate color.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
And the first T shirt says who eats fudge Anymore?
Speaker 4 (01:25):
And I think it is a picture of me and
Ruth Richardson, so that is that is a great T shirt.
I'm keen on this T shirt and the answer is
people don't eat fudge anymore.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I preferred the flowers I was sent that day. Here
you're going there, you go beautiful. Okay, and now let
you have a look at the other T shirt.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
It's the same T shirt I just got your too.
I just thought, in case you wanted to give your
partner one for me and one for.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Your partner, well maybe we could both wear them on
Christmas Day.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
That's what your decision. You can either give it to
the Prime Minister as a laugh, or you can give
it to your partner as something that you both. There's
only two of those made in the world, so you
can auction that at some time.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Thank you a lot of thought when and I want
you to quickly open your present, because we put some
thought into yours too. We thought what would the people
at newstalksz'd be like to see. And we know that
they are huge champions of Wellington, that they love the city,
so we thought that that should feature in the gifts.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
And so what we've done is we've created a picture
of me and Nick is kind of the King and
Queen of Wellington fixing the basics, building the future.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Wow. Love it, love it. How cool? It's going to
take pride in our office. Thank you. Right, let's get
into business. I'm trying to get rid of that wrapping
paper so it doesn't rattle around. Let's do a wrap
of the year. This time last year, we sat and
looked at each other and you said to me that
it was going to be fantastic this year. Hold on,
(02:54):
hold on, hold on, which I did personally, probably to
my detriment. What are you going to tell me now?
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Well, I can tell you that when I said that,
I meant it sincerely because we knew that we had
inflation coming down and interest rates coming down, and we
had a good first three months and then everyone felt
it didn't know that the stuff and came out of things,
and it was very tough and it has been tough
for a lot of people. So I can understand why
Now some people say, well, I've heard this before, and
I don't know that it's going to continue. But what
(03:25):
we had yesterday was confirmation that our economy bounced back
big time in the last few months with one point
one percent growth. We know that we're going to keep
having low and stable inflation. Interest rates have come down
very low, and those are the conditions you want for
things to get better. And so what the economists tell
me is they say, these are the conditions and which
(03:46):
you're going to get growth, job creation. Business is going
to start making a bit more money. You are going
to see people earning a bit more. All of those
things should happen, and that's what will of course make
people feel better.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
But I get it.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
People are, I think cynical because they've been through a
really difficult few years and people feel fragile. So it's
not enough for me to say the words they need
to feel it. But every piece of data I look
at tells me that we more of us will feel it.
And like, man, it's been a hard recovery that people
have hung on.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
They deserve it.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
You know what, last year, I wanted to believe you,
but was in such a dark place that I couldn't
believe you. This year, I'm probably in a darker place,
but I'm looking at you and I'm feeling that you're right,
and I'm feeling like I want to agree with you.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Is that stupidity or I'm really pleased to hear that.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
I do think that more and more New Zealanders are
giving me those anecdotes that make the data seem real.
So I'm talking to you a coffee cart owner who
says he's had the best day of sales that he'd.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Had in three years.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
I'm talking to a restaurant owner who says, well, actually
my debt has reduced by tens of thousands of dollars
the debt payments because my interest bill is now lower.
I'm talking to families who are saying, well, look, we're
feeling a bit more secure now. We are going to
go out and buy some furniture and all of those things,
of course, get the economy going in and o themselves
and so.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So what do you say to those people that aren't
that fortunate, those people that this Christmas they are going
to be going and knocking on doors and trying to
get some help from people, just to get through. What
do you say to those people, Well.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
I feel a real commitment to those people because I
think part of the way we are as a country
is that we believe in having strong communities with a
strong social safety net, and that's why we have a
welfare system that actually our government has worked to preserve.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Of course we want to encourage people into.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Work, but if they can't get work, then there needs
to be support for them. That's why that we have
committed to the social investment approach of making investments earlier
in people's lives so that those who are underball get
more support. It's why we provide support to a range
of organizations here in Wellington. Downtown Community Ministry are the
Wellington City Mission who provide really great support for those
(05:57):
most in need and they do a particularly good job
at Christmas. As to Wellingtonians who volunteer in a big
way to help out with those organizations, and I think
very should be commended. So to those people, I say,
I think New Zealand is a with you. We've got
your back. If you do the right thing and you
try hard, there's a lot of support for you in
this country.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
There's a lot of talk also that the surplus promises
keep getting pushed out and pushed out. Explain to our
listeners that don't understand the surplus how important it is
to the economy. Is it vital? I mean, I describe
it as the overdraft and your check account where it
just keeps getting worse rather than better. You're not paying
anything back on your overdraft or your mortgage that keeps
(06:37):
going up one hundred grand every couple of years because
you can't pay your bills. Is that a good way
of explaination.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I think that's actually a pretty good analogy.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
So of course, during COVID, I think we all know
that the government borrowed big time. In our view, they
kept on borrowing for too long, spending a lot of
money that we didn't have at that time. So New
Zealand built up a really big pile of debt. We
more than doubled our debt in the proportion of the
economy we're.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Paying interest on that.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
It's around nine billion a year, which is a huge
amount of interest. But at the same time we're still
spending a bit more than we earn as a country
in order to pay for health and education and police
and all of the things that we need to pay
for So our goal is to get to a place
where we're earning enough through the tax system that we
can actually pay for everything and bring the books in balance,
(07:22):
including paying the interest on the old debt, and get
to a point where we're paying the debt down. So
that's been our goal as a government, and I presented
forecasts this week which.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Show that we are on track to do that.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
We will get the books back in balance, we will
bend that debt curve down. The only way we get
there is with ongoing careful, careful fiscal management, which means
being pretty tight about how much extra money we spend
at new budgets, keeping on finding areas we can make savings,
we can make reprioritizations, just like a household or a
small business trying to get things back in the balance.
(07:55):
It's a question of what can we shave off here
and there, what's most important, how do we prioritize? And
that's where New Zealand is out of a country. But
when we grow faster, everything's easier because of course people
learn more, we get more revenue.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
You actually cut to get that because somewhere along the
line you've had hither du pacedel and saying get rid
of the free year at universities, which I tend to
agree with it with her, because you can, as a
student borrow and get through if your need to. There
must be some ways that you can cut and make
things better.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I think there are options.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
And so the process that I go through as i'm
right to individual ministers and I say to them, look,
as we get ready for the budget, can you go
off to your agency and find some areas where you
could do some savings. Doesn't mean we'll necessarily do them,
but I want some options, cost them up, put them together,
and then we weigh up all of the options on
one side of the ledger that we could do savings on,
and we weigh it against all the things we want
to invest in, from new hospitals to schools to the
(08:49):
defense force, and we say, okay, well, if we make
that saving, we can afford to do this great thing
over here. If we don't make that saving, we can't
actually afford to make that investment over here. And so
it's weighing up one thing against the other. And these
are real trade offs. And I think what I sometimes
get frustrated by islit opponents who are very happy to
criticize every reprioritization we do and to say.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
You shouldn't do that, you shouldn't do that.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Well, actually, if we don't do that, we'll be in
debt forever and the interest bill for our kids will
be unmanageable. And there's one thing that happens when countries
do that, taxes go up, and so we're trying to
avoid that.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
So if the taxes do go up, it won't be
next year, will it.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
We won't be increasing taxes. That's not the philosophy of
our government. What we believe is that New Zealanders should
keep more of what they earn so that they can
make choices in their own families and businesses about how
to spend it. That's why we came in and reduced
taxes for working people.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Do you have any regrets that you've made it so
tough on businesses? Do you have any regrets that you
know you're obviously put the power and the tax department
to try and wind up coming I mean, you just
read the paper every day it's another company getting wound
up by the tax department. They're very hard to deal with,
harder than I've ever known. Do you have it.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
We certainly have worked hard to try and make things
easier for this, whether that's changes to the Holidays Act,
health and Safety laws, the changes we've made with the
Investment Boost tax credit.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
We're on the side of business.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
In the case of the AID, they had a period
during COVID where they weren't chasing tax debt, and they
probably let that period go on for a bit long
because in the end tax is owed, and so they're
now in the position of having to make sure that
people are paying tax. But some firms, of course, did
build up a lot of tax debt during COVID, So
there are firms that are in a difficult position. They
(10:35):
also have to look other tax payers in the eye
and say we're fair. Everyone who owes tax has to
pay it. So there's a balance for them to strike
as well.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Is there a balance between trying to make them get
through the hard times and survive rather than closing down.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
And look, my advice always to people who are listening is,
if you've got problems paying your tax debt to IRD,
first thing you should do is ring IRD, because in
the first instance, what they will want to do is
put you on some sort of a payment plan. They
want you to be able to repay tax that you owe,
and so they are incentivized to create arrangements to make
(11:11):
that happen. Why did the debate not go through because
Ruth piped out that's the short story, and it's a
real shame.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I was so looking forward to it.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
I actually Nick had booked a venue that we could
do it at either yesterday or even today. I was
prepared to, you know, say, I can't even go and
do my Christmas show with Nick Mills because I've got
the debate. And all I said was, look, I don't
really mind who the moderator is. Should be someone independent.
There are a few suggestions flying around, and I said
yes to pretty much all of them, and I said
(11:41):
it should be somewhere that all media can attend, and
so Parliament is that location. But if you've got somewhere
else you want to do it that media can attend,
that's fine.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I was very relaxed about the whole thing.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
But I remember on day one she said she didn't
want to do it. And I think it's a little
bit like when you know, dogs bark a lot, and
that's what the Taxpayers Union does. And then they chase
the car, but then they catch the car and they
don't know what to.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Do with it.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
And I was there ready to debate and they suddenly
didn't know what to do.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
It sounds like a time for a quick break. Finance
Minister Nichola Willis joins us live at pre Fab on
our last show of the year. She's having breakfast. I'm
watching her eat her breakfast and have her copy. She
seems pretty content. Let's talk about Poles. I mean, the
polls just aren't going your way yet everybody knows that
(12:31):
you're going to get back into power.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Well if the polls bounce around. There are some polls
that go very much our way. There's been a lot
of polls that show that it would be very difficult
for Labor to party Marti and Greens to form a government.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
There are other polls that go up and go down.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
But my view is a pretty clear one, which is
when we actually get to the election campaign next year,
the question New Zealanders will ask themselves is, given the
progress we've made, and we will have made a lot
of progress then in health and education and.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Law and order with the autonomy.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Given that progress, do we really want to put it
all at risk and go back to the old guys
who created quite but not only just go back to them,
but go back to them in combination with a Chloe
swawbrick led Green Party and a Tapati Marty that is
absolutely split and fished and full of problems. And I
think a lot of New Zealanders will say, Look, I
may not think the government's perfect, I may not love
(13:23):
National with every cell in my body, but on balance
they're better than the other lot.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
What about the PM. Now, I've got a good relationship
with him. I've met him three or four times. I've
interviewed him three or four times.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I like him.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
There's something about him that I actually genuinely like. Well,
the Poles don't and the people seem to not get up.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
What is it.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Well, I'm like you, n can't really like him. And
I get to spend a lot of time with him,
and what I see in him is a very deep
sincerity in terms of.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
What motivates him.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
He is very much in that role because he wants
to serve the country. He has very strong values and
he has real resolve And what I've watched of him
this year has really impressed me, which is He's come
under so much flat from so many corners, so consistently, and.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
It just doesn't get to him. He keeps going.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
He's a very resolute leader in the sense that he
knows he has a team around him who need to perform,
and he's there to support that team, and he doesn't
let it become about him and his emotional state.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
He just keeps leading.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
And I think New Zealand is increasingly when I speak
to people, see that strength, appreciate that strength because the
country needs a leader who's strong right now. We have
been through a very difficult time and you need that
clarity of vision and purpose and he has it.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
So rumblings. Is there any rum I mean you Heather
came out one day and said it's all over by
Christmas and you know media are being jumping. Is there
any real any realness to it?
Speaker 3 (14:46):
No, there isn't you know.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
From basically day one, since the PM became the leader
of the National Party and I became his deputy leader,
there's been constant noise from the media about is this
going to last?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Is something going to happen?
Speaker 4 (14:59):
And I think it's just become part of the hurly
burly of it. But I can tell you our caucus,
our cabinet are committed to him and his leadership and
frankly we're.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Focused on what the country need.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Committed. Absolutely, you think come election next year he will
will one hundred percent be leading one hundred Nationals one.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Hundred percent because he's got this glint in his eye
about the possibilities he sees for New Zealand and he
wants to deliver it from them and that's what it's
about for him.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
It's about making it a bit of country.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
What about Nikola willis are you going to stand?
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Am I going to stand?
Speaker 4 (15:31):
I'm absolutely going to be running for parliament again, you
betcha After all this hard work as Finance minister, I
want the next three years and I want someone else
coming and wasting it all.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
That wasn't the question, how are you going to stand?
Because I bet it it boils down to one. Hell,
I've got to fight. If you go for the old
Central with Icehaviril and Tamotha Paul and you, that's pretty exciting,
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Well, what I've always said is that my job for
the National Party really as it's deputy leader and finance
spokesperson is to help us maximize our party vote, to
do the best job possible those two role. Well, I'm
actually I'm going to make a statement on this in
the coming days, Nick, and suffice to say that I'm
(16:15):
a servant of the National Party and it's members, and
I'm going to do what's best for them.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
If you rated yourself as finance minus that a lot
of people are rating you. I mean, if you rated
yourself out of team, what do you think you are?
You know, how's your scorecard looking? Well?
Speaker 4 (16:31):
I wouldn't score myself now because I think that would
be preemptry. I would wait until before the election to say, actually,
looking back over the three years, what's your score, because
it's too early to score me now. But I would
understand anyone who was assessing me from the sidelines right now,
and they'd say, Okay, well, we can see you've got
(16:52):
your head down and you bum up and you're working hard,
but we're not sure that you've delivered the results yet.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
And so I am very conscious of that. I get
up every morning and I think I've got a lot
to prove to New Zealanders. I've made commitments to them.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
They need to see the results and I fully acknowledge
many people have seen enough result.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Yet what does the mirror tell you?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
What does the mirror tell me?
Speaker 4 (17:10):
The mirror tells me that I know in my heart
that I've given it absolutely everything, that I have worked
with sincerity, that I have been focused on the principles
I think we were elected for that. I've had to
make some really tough choices, but I've always made them
thinking what is ultimately going to beast for New Zealanders,
and that any challenges we have had haven't been for
(17:32):
lack of me trying.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
I've given it my absolute everything, and I will keep
doing it. Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas to you.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Thank you for coming on the show and being regular,
and thank you for all the work that you do.
And let's hope that we're both on the same page
this time next year and I've still got the job,
but you've still got the job, but we're still pretty
fair of having a chance.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
That's right, and we can look back and say twenty
twenty six was the year things just got a heck
of a lot better than they I wish that for
everyone who's listening.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
May you have a merry Christmas. May we go into
next year with better tidings.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Thank you, Appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said b capital.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
As promised and as delivered. Finance Minister Nichola Willis has
a coffee in one hand and a ham and cheese.
Something looks pretty damned delicious. It's not too many people
can say they have breakfast a week out from Christmas
with the Finance minister, but I can say that. Good
morning and welcome to the show, Nichola Willis.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
It is great to be on the show and wonderful
to be here at Prefab and in recognition of the
wonderful team at news Talk. I have a present for you,
Nick Mary Christmas.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
That's very nice to marry Christmas, all right, Well I
have the same. I have the same because on behalf
of us. I've got a little present for you. Now
this might be a bit cheeky. I don't want you
to take it as cheeky. I want you to take
it as fun. And there's two of them now, the
second one, right, this is the second one. You can
either give to you, your partner, husband or the Prime Minister.
(01:09):
You can make that decision. Do you go.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I think your listeners are going to want to know
what's going on here. Okay, guys, we've got an article
of clothing. It is blue, so it's an appropriate color.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
And the first T shirt says who eats fudge Anymore?
Speaker 4 (01:25):
And I think it is a picture of me and
Ruth Richardson, so that is that is a great T shirt.
I'm keen on this T shirt and the answer is
people don't eat fudge anymore.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I preferred the flowers I was sent that day. Here
you're going there, you go beautiful. Okay, and now let
you have a look at the other T shirt.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
It's the same T shirt I just got your too.
I just thought, in case you wanted to give your
partner one for me and one for.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Your partner, well maybe we could both wear them on
Christmas Day.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
That's what your decision. You can either give it to
the Prime Minister as a laugh, or you can give
it to your partner as something that you both. There's
only two of those made in the world, so you
can auction that at some time.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Thank you a lot of thought when and I want
you to quickly open your present, because we put some
thought into yours too. We thought what would the people
at newstalksz'd be like to see. And we know that
they are huge champions of Wellington, that they love the city,
so we thought that that should feature in the gifts.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
And so what we've done is we've created a picture
of me and Nick is kind of the King and
Queen of Wellington fixing the basics, building the future.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Wow. Love it, love it. How cool? It's going to
take pride in our office. Thank you. Right, let's get
into business. I'm trying to get rid of that wrapping
paper so it doesn't rattle around. Let's do a wrap
of the year. This time last year, we sat and
looked at each other and you said to me that
it was going to be fantastic this year. Hold on,
(02:54):
hold on, hold on, which I did personally, probably to
my detriment. What are you going to tell me now?
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Well, I can tell you that when I said that,
I meant it sincerely because we knew that we had
inflation coming down and interest rates coming down, and we
had a good first three months and then everyone felt
it didn't know that the stuff and came out of things,
and it was very tough and it has been tough
for a lot of people. So I can understand why
Now some people say, well, I've heard this before, and
I don't know that it's going to continue. But what
(03:25):
we had yesterday was confirmation that our economy bounced back
big time in the last few months with one point
one percent growth. We know that we're going to keep
having low and stable inflation. Interest rates have come down
very low, and those are the conditions you want for
things to get better. And so what the economists tell
me is they say, these are the conditions and which
(03:46):
you're going to get growth, job creation. Business is going
to start making a bit more money. You are going
to see people earning a bit more. All of those
things should happen, and that's what will of course make
people feel better.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
But I get it.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
People are, I think cynical because they've been through a
really difficult few years and people feel fragile. So it's
not enough for me to say the words they need
to feel it. But every piece of data I look
at tells me that we more of us will feel it.
And like, man, it's been a hard recovery that people
have hung on.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
They deserve it.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
You know what, last year, I wanted to believe you,
but was in such a dark place that I couldn't
believe you. This year, I'm probably in a darker place,
but I'm looking at you and I'm feeling that you're right,
and I'm feeling like I want to agree with you.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Is that stupidity or I'm really pleased to hear that.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
I do think that more and more New Zealanders are
giving me those anecdotes that make the data seem real.
So I'm talking to you a coffee cart owner who
says he's had the best day of sales that he'd.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Had in three years.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
I'm talking to a restaurant owner who says, well, actually
my debt has reduced by tens of thousands of dollars
the debt payments because my interest bill is now lower.
I'm talking to families who are saying, well, look, we're
feeling a bit more secure now. We are going to
go out and buy some furniture and all of those things,
of course, get the economy going in and o themselves
and so.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So what do you say to those people that aren't
that fortunate, those people that this Christmas they are going
to be going and knocking on doors and trying to
get some help from people, just to get through. What
do you say to those people, Well.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
I feel a real commitment to those people because I
think part of the way we are as a country
is that we believe in having strong communities with a
strong social safety net, and that's why we have a
welfare system that actually our government has worked to preserve.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Of course we want to encourage people into.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Work, but if they can't get work, then there needs
to be support for them. That's why that we have
committed to the social investment approach of making investments earlier
in people's lives so that those who are underball get
more support. It's why we provide support to a range
of organizations here in Wellington. Downtown Community Ministry are the
Wellington City Mission who provide really great support for those
(05:57):
most in need and they do a particularly good job
at Christmas. As to Wellingtonians who volunteer in a big
way to help out with those organizations, and I think
very should be commended. So to those people, I say,
I think New Zealand is a with you. We've got
your back. If you do the right thing and you
try hard, there's a lot of support for you in
this country.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
There's a lot of talk also that the surplus promises
keep getting pushed out and pushed out. Explain to our
listeners that don't understand the surplus how important it is
to the economy. Is it vital? I mean, I describe
it as the overdraft and your check account where it
just keeps getting worse rather than better. You're not paying
anything back on your overdraft or your mortgage that keeps
(06:37):
going up one hundred grand every couple of years because
you can't pay your bills. Is that a good way
of explaination.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I think that's actually a pretty good analogy.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
So of course, during COVID, I think we all know
that the government borrowed big time. In our view, they
kept on borrowing for too long, spending a lot of
money that we didn't have at that time. So New
Zealand built up a really big pile of debt. We
more than doubled our debt in the proportion of the
economy we're.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Paying interest on that.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
It's around nine billion a year, which is a huge
amount of interest. But at the same time we're still
spending a bit more than we earn as a country
in order to pay for health and education and police
and all of the things that we need to pay
for So our goal is to get to a place
where we're earning enough through the tax system that we
can actually pay for everything and bring the books in balance,
(07:22):
including paying the interest on the old debt, and get
to a point where we're paying the debt down. So
that's been our goal as a government, and I presented
forecasts this week which.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Show that we are on track to do that.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
We will get the books back in balance, we will
bend that debt curve down. The only way we get
there is with ongoing careful, careful fiscal management, which means
being pretty tight about how much extra money we spend
at new budgets, keeping on finding areas we can make savings,
we can make reprioritizations, just like a household or a
small business trying to get things back in the balance.
(07:55):
It's a question of what can we shave off here
and there, what's most important, how do we prioritize? And
that's where New Zealand is out of a country. But
when we grow faster, everything's easier because of course people
learn more, we get more revenue.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
You actually cut to get that because somewhere along the
line you've had hither du pacedel and saying get rid
of the free year at universities, which I tend to
agree with it with her, because you can, as a
student borrow and get through if your need to. There
must be some ways that you can cut and make
things better.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I think there are options.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
And so the process that I go through as i'm
right to individual ministers and I say to them, look,
as we get ready for the budget, can you go
off to your agency and find some areas where you
could do some savings. Doesn't mean we'll necessarily do them,
but I want some options, cost them up, put them together,
and then we weigh up all of the options on
one side of the ledger that we could do savings on,
and we weigh it against all the things we want
to invest in, from new hospitals to schools to the
(08:49):
defense force, and we say, okay, well, if we make
that saving, we can afford to do this great thing
over here. If we don't make that saving, we can't
actually afford to make that investment over here. And so
it's weighing up one thing against the other. And these
are real trade offs. And I think what I sometimes
get frustrated by islit opponents who are very happy to
criticize every reprioritization we do and to say.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
You shouldn't do that, you shouldn't do that.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Well, actually, if we don't do that, we'll be in
debt forever and the interest bill for our kids will
be unmanageable. And there's one thing that happens when countries
do that, taxes go up, and so we're trying to
avoid that.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
So if the taxes do go up, it won't be
next year, will it.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
We won't be increasing taxes. That's not the philosophy of
our government. What we believe is that New Zealanders should
keep more of what they earn so that they can
make choices in their own families and businesses about how
to spend it. That's why we came in and reduced
taxes for working people.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Do you have any regrets that you've made it so
tough on businesses? Do you have any regrets that you
know you're obviously put the power and the tax department
to try and wind up coming I mean, you just
read the paper every day it's another company getting wound
up by the tax department. They're very hard to deal with,
harder than I've ever known. Do you have it.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
We certainly have worked hard to try and make things
easier for this, whether that's changes to the Holidays Act,
health and Safety laws, the changes we've made with the
Investment Boost tax credit.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
We're on the side of business.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
In the case of the AID, they had a period
during COVID where they weren't chasing tax debt, and they
probably let that period go on for a bit long
because in the end tax is owed, and so they're
now in the position of having to make sure that
people are paying tax. But some firms, of course, did
build up a lot of tax debt during COVID, So
there are firms that are in a difficult position. They
(10:35):
also have to look other tax payers in the eye
and say we're fair. Everyone who owes tax has to
pay it. So there's a balance for them to strike
as well.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Is there a balance between trying to make them get
through the hard times and survive rather than closing down.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
And look, my advice always to people who are listening is,
if you've got problems paying your tax debt to IRD,
first thing you should do is ring IRD, because in
the first instance, what they will want to do is
put you on some sort of a payment plan. They
want you to be able to repay tax that you owe,
and so they are incentivized to create arrangements to make
(11:11):
that happen. Why did the debate not go through because
Ruth piped out that's the short story, and it's a
real shame.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I was so looking forward to it.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
I actually Nick had booked a venue that we could
do it at either yesterday or even today. I was
prepared to, you know, say, I can't even go and
do my Christmas show with Nick Mills because I've got
the debate. And all I said was, look, I don't
really mind who the moderator is. Should be someone independent.
There are a few suggestions flying around, and I said
yes to pretty much all of them, and I said
(11:41):
it should be somewhere that all media can attend, and
so Parliament is that location. But if you've got somewhere
else you want to do it that media can attend,
that's fine.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I was very relaxed about the whole thing.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
But I remember on day one she said she didn't
want to do it. And I think it's a little
bit like when you know, dogs bark a lot, and
that's what the Taxpayers Union does. And then they chase
the car, but then they catch the car and they
don't know what to.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Do with it.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
And I was there ready to debate and they suddenly
didn't know what to do.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
It sounds like a time for a quick break. Finance
Minister Nichola Willis joins us live at pre Fab on
our last show of the year. She's having breakfast. I'm
watching her eat her breakfast and have her copy. She
seems pretty content. Let's talk about Poles. I mean, the
polls just aren't going your way yet everybody knows that
(12:31):
you're going to get back into power.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Well if the polls bounce around. There are some polls
that go very much our way. There's been a lot
of polls that show that it would be very difficult
for Labor to party Marti and Greens to form a government.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
There are other polls that go up and go down.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
But my view is a pretty clear one, which is
when we actually get to the election campaign next year,
the question New Zealanders will ask themselves is, given the
progress we've made, and we will have made a lot
of progress then in health and education and.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Law and order with the autonomy.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Given that progress, do we really want to put it
all at risk and go back to the old guys
who created quite but not only just go back to them,
but go back to them in combination with a Chloe
swawbrick led Green Party and a Tapati Marty that is
absolutely split and fished and full of problems. And I
think a lot of New Zealanders will say, Look, I
may not think the government's perfect, I may not love
(13:23):
National with every cell in my body, but on balance
they're better than the other lot.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
What about the PM. Now, I've got a good relationship
with him. I've met him three or four times. I've
interviewed him three or four times.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I like him.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
There's something about him that I actually genuinely like. Well,
the Poles don't and the people seem to not get up.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
What is it.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Well, I'm like you, n can't really like him. And
I get to spend a lot of time with him,
and what I see in him is a very deep
sincerity in terms of.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
What motivates him.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
He is very much in that role because he wants
to serve the country. He has very strong values and
he has real resolve And what I've watched of him
this year has really impressed me, which is He's come
under so much flat from so many corners, so consistently, and.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
It just doesn't get to him. He keeps going.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
He's a very resolute leader in the sense that he
knows he has a team around him who need to perform,
and he's there to support that team, and he doesn't
let it become about him and his emotional state.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
He just keeps leading.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
And I think New Zealand is increasingly when I speak
to people, see that strength, appreciate that strength because the
country needs a leader who's strong right now. We have
been through a very difficult time and you need that
clarity of vision and purpose and he has it.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
So rumblings. Is there any rum I mean you Heather
came out one day and said it's all over by
Christmas and you know media are being jumping. Is there
any real any realness to it?
Speaker 3 (14:46):
No, there isn't you know.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
From basically day one, since the PM became the leader
of the National Party and I became his deputy leader,
there's been constant noise from the media about is this
going to last?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Is something going to happen?
Speaker 4 (14:59):
And I think it's just become part of the hurly
burly of it. But I can tell you our caucus,
our cabinet are committed to him and his leadership and
frankly we're.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Focused on what the country need.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Committed. Absolutely, you think come election next year he will
will one hundred percent be leading one hundred Nationals one.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Hundred percent because he's got this glint in his eye
about the possibilities he sees for New Zealand and he
wants to deliver it from them and that's what it's
about for him.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
It's about making it a bit of country.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
What about Nikola willis are you going to stand?
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Am I going to stand?
Speaker 4 (15:31):
I'm absolutely going to be running for parliament again, you
betcha After all this hard work as Finance minister, I
want the next three years and I want someone else
coming and wasting it all.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
That wasn't the question, how are you going to stand?
Because I bet it it boils down to one. Hell,
I've got to fight. If you go for the old
Central with Icehaviril and Tamotha Paul and you, that's pretty exciting,
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Well, what I've always said is that my job for
the National Party really as it's deputy leader and finance
spokesperson is to help us maximize our party vote, to
do the best job possible those two role. Well, I'm
actually I'm going to make a statement on this in
the coming days, Nick, and suffice to say that I'm
(16:15):
a servant of the National Party and it's members, and
I'm going to do what's best for them.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
If you rated yourself as finance minus that a lot
of people are rating you. I mean, if you rated
yourself out of team, what do you think you are?
You know, how's your scorecard looking? Well?
Speaker 4 (16:31):
I wouldn't score myself now because I think that would
be preemptry. I would wait until before the election to say, actually,
looking back over the three years, what's your score, because
it's too early to score me now. But I would
understand anyone who was assessing me from the sidelines right now,
and they'd say, Okay, well, we can see you've got
(16:52):
your head down and you bum up and you're working hard,
but we're not sure that you've delivered the results yet.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
And so I am very conscious of that. I get
up every morning and I think I've got a lot
to prove to New Zealanders. I've made commitments to them.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
They need to see the results and I fully acknowledge
many people have seen enough result.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Yet what does the mirror tell you?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
What does the mirror tell me?
Speaker 4 (17:10):
The mirror tells me that I know in my heart
that I've given it absolutely everything, that I have worked
with sincerity, that I have been focused on the principles
I think we were elected for that. I've had to
make some really tough choices, but I've always made them
thinking what is ultimately going to beast for New Zealanders,
and that any challenges we have had haven't been for
(17:32):
lack of me trying.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
I've given it my absolute everything, and I will keep
doing it. Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas to you.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Thank you for coming on the show and being regular,
and thank you for all the work that you do.
And let's hope that we're both on the same page
this time next year and I've still got the job,
but you've still got the job, but we're still pretty
fair of having a chance.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
That's right, and we can look back and say twenty
twenty six was the year things just got a heck
of a lot better than they I wish that for
everyone who's listening.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
May you have a merry Christmas. May we go into
next year with better tidings.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Thank you, Appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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