August 22, 2024 • 8 mins
Gregor Paul joins Craig Cumming to chat AB's assistant coach Leon MacDonald's exit on the eve of the team flying out to South Africa
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, it's the top topic. It's he leading all the headlines.
It's Liam McDonald has exited the All Blacks joining us now,
as our Rugby describe, the man who knows everything, because
he's going to update us on the reasons why. Gregor Paul,
good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Good morning.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Yeah, well, yesterday we spoke about Razer taken on Rezi.
You know that was going to be the big battle
in the next couple of weeks and was twenty four
hours is a long time in international rugby.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
We've lost a coach.
Speaker 4 (00:22):
Yeah, well, I'd say I didn't see this coming, but
I wouldn't be quite truthful with that.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I did see this coming, just not right now.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
I'm certainly surprised that this split has happened as quickly
as it has. My feel here was that the whole
coaching setup wasn't going to go the distance through to
the next World Cup. I had a feeling that it
wasn't quite right in terms of maybe there were there
were too many or there were too many doing too
(00:53):
similar jobs, and eventually that would become a problem that
they would look to reshuffle that, or somebody would move on,
or there'd be some changes. But I was anticipating maybe
start of next year or even after two years, which
start to see a little bit of change in the setup.
So I'm definitely surprised that it's happened after five test matches.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, I mean, when you look at it, you've got Robinson,
Ryan McDonald, Hanson Holland Ellison, Wayne Smith's a performance coach.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
There are other coaches in there as well. So the
question is is this.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
A conflict with Scott Robinson or is this a conflict
the fact that with other coaches and not being able
to probably do the role that someone like Lea McDonald
thought he was going to do initially.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
I think we'll probably not find out the answer until
one of them writes a book or is ready to
reveal all, which won't be anytime soon.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I don't think. I think at the.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Moment the best guess would be probably be a combination
of multiple factors. Certainly the two things that you've suggested there,
potentially Leon felt at the beginning, Tammthy Ellison, who's come
on board on a slightly expanded role. As far as
(02:06):
I understand that, you know, Razor has you know, got
more budget for him to spend more time with the team,
I'm wondering if that's been a little bit of an
encrosion onto Leon's territory potentially, and he's looking at that
going cheaper. It feels like I've got about four people
around me doing pretty similar jobs for the one I'm doing,
and it.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Wasn't really what I signed up to do. The thing
that I don't fully.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Understand is if they're not philosophically aligned. Well, Razor put
this team together in April last year. These guys were
appointed in an unprecedented scenario where they had, you know,
six months to be together before they even officially took
over as all blacks cultures. So they've had about fifteen
months together before they coached the test match. How could
(02:54):
they have not realized that they weren't philosophically aligned at
that point?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Why would you not know that.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
You've surely sat down the pair of them, talked through
how they wanted to play, how the team would be
set up culturally, ethically, all the kind of things they
would enforce. So has something happened since they began. I'm
beginning to wonder whether something.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Has happened that has forced the split between them.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah, it must have happened.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I suppose the key Well, at the start, when you're
putting it together, you're you're writing things down, you're having conversations,
but you're actually not out on the training park. You're
not watching each other coach, you're not trying to I
suppose review in certain aspects. And one thing about it
when you look at it, I mean Liam McDonald assistant
coaches Attack, You've got Jason Holland assistant coach backs. Then
(03:39):
you've got Tomothy Allison contact skills coach. You know, you've
got to be able to get a lot of heads
around trying to implement something.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
So if they're not all cohesive and they're not all working.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Together, because they have to work together because you're trying
to put together a game plan. And then also you've
got Scott Hansen, who is probably the most important or
the most valued one when it comes to Scott Robins
because apparent he's the one in charge of game playing.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah. Yeah, well there's a lot of names there, isn't there?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah, there is.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I to get an alignment. The danger two dangers here. One,
there's a danger that the players may have felt jeepers
who we're listening to here because we've got multiple voices
on largely the same issues, very niche territories, so there
would be a problem. I'm wondering if Leon sat there
and felt that he was just being crowded out of
(04:29):
his job.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
He couldn't be.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Heard, he didn't have enough responsibility for his particular role,
but it was potentially going to lead to scenario where
he felt, well, I'll be accountable for it, but I
don't necessarily have enough responsibility for it, so I'll be
taking the blame for other.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
People not quite getting bits right.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
And I also wonder whether he loved the idea that
everybody got to select little bits of the team, which
is again an unusual idea. Isn't it that Leon? You
know he selects the back three, Jason Holland does the midfield,
Scott Hanson nine and ten. It's an unusual way and
never seen a team picked like that before.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And again you.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Talk about philosophical differences. Whether Leon knew that when he
signed up, or whether he thought, well, it might be
okay when we get in there, we'll see what happens.
But he had his reservations, got in there and went cheapers.
It's not quite it's exactly what I thought it doesn't
quite work like that.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And sometimes you know they're not saying too many cooks.
I wonder also, and you know, I know myself on
the head coach. You know he's been a head coach
in charge of everything at the Blues. Whether or not
it was tough not being able to probably be in
charge of things that that is total speculation, but you.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Could understand that.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
You know, you've gone from pulling all the strings now
you've got some strings that you're not in charge of.
So that could I mean smoke Elliot Smith and he said, Gregor,
that is actually a really brave decision. They've been transparent,
they're pretty open and honest, and you know they've made
a big call. But probably you know it's a it's
a side of bravery to make that call.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
I'd agree with that. Yeah, I mean it's probably terrible analogy.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
But if you've got a marriage that's not quite working,
A lot of marriages stick.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Together for the sake of the children. They think that's
the right thing to do.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
And you actually go, well, do you know what, living
with a bickering parents is maybe not the right thing
to do. It's actually going to impact the toxicity will
impact upon everybody. So the best thing to do is
make a really bold, quick, open, honest decision, say this
is not working out, because I don't know how transparent
their difficulties would have been on the training ground, and
(06:36):
if they were starting to impact the players, then you
have to say, well, we can't go to South Africa
with two guys who are not jelling her, not compatible,
they're not working together the way that we should be,
and there's no point in leaving at another two or
three test matches to see if it comes right right.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
It's clearly not going to come right, so let's do
it now before it becomes an even bigger problem. And
I was definitely impressed that the.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Candor that we got from them, there was no ubiquitous
family reasons or any euphemisms put behind the story.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
We got it up front. When we're not.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
Getting the full specifics and we probably never will, but
that's okay. We got enough out of them to go, look,
we're not compatible, it's not working. We've made a decision
to move on and part company. And yeah, it's definitely
the right way to have done.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
It, absolutely, And I suppose the best thing is you're
getting on a plane, so you're leaving.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
He's yelling. You're probably leaving them.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Always been, as we know, if they get a win
in the first teast in South Africa, everyone moves on
pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Well, I mean the bizarre thing is it's not unprecedented.
The last time No Blacks played two Test matches in
South Africa, we saw two assistant coaches removed from their
pulse as well.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
So it's just it's a different but similar scenario if
you like that.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
We've seen coaching changes impacted between the July Tests or
two Test matches before going to say that Africa and
they won in twenty twenty two when they made changes
to the coaching team and they brought Jason Ryan and
they won. When they went over there they won one
Test match. Maybe we'll see an immediate improvement in the
performance it Mike.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Do appreciate your time this morning, Gregor, you have a
great Dan and enjoy the weekend.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
There we go, Grega Paul joining us
Yeah, it's the top topic. It's he leading all the headlines.
It's Liam McDonald has exited the All Blacks joining us now,
as our Rugby describe, the man who knows everything, because
he's going to update us on the reasons why. Gregor Paul,
good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Good morning.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Yeah, well, yesterday we spoke about Razer taken on Rezi.
You know that was going to be the big battle
in the next couple of weeks and was twenty four
hours is a long time in international rugby.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
We've lost a coach.
Speaker 4 (00:22):
Yeah, well, I'd say I didn't see this coming, but
I wouldn't be quite truthful with that.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I did see this coming, just not right now.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
I'm certainly surprised that this split has happened as quickly
as it has. My feel here was that the whole
coaching setup wasn't going to go the distance through to
the next World Cup. I had a feeling that it
wasn't quite right in terms of maybe there were there
were too many or there were too many doing too
(00:53):
similar jobs, and eventually that would become a problem that
they would look to reshuffle that, or somebody would move on,
or there'd be some changes. But I was anticipating maybe
start of next year or even after two years, which
start to see a little bit of change in the setup.
So I'm definitely surprised that it's happened after five test matches.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, I mean, when you look at it, you've got Robinson,
Ryan McDonald, Hanson Holland Ellison, Wayne Smith's a performance coach.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
There are other coaches in there as well. So the
question is is this.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
A conflict with Scott Robinson or is this a conflict
the fact that with other coaches and not being able
to probably do the role that someone like Lea McDonald
thought he was going to do initially.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
I think we'll probably not find out the answer until
one of them writes a book or is ready to
reveal all, which won't be anytime soon.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I don't think. I think at the.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Moment the best guess would be probably be a combination
of multiple factors. Certainly the two things that you've suggested there,
potentially Leon felt at the beginning, Tammthy Ellison, who's come
on board on a slightly expanded role. As far as
(02:06):
I understand that, you know, Razor has you know, got
more budget for him to spend more time with the team,
I'm wondering if that's been a little bit of an
encrosion onto Leon's territory potentially, and he's looking at that
going cheaper. It feels like I've got about four people
around me doing pretty similar jobs for the one I'm doing,
and it.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Wasn't really what I signed up to do. The thing
that I don't fully.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Understand is if they're not philosophically aligned. Well, Razor put
this team together in April last year. These guys were
appointed in an unprecedented scenario where they had, you know,
six months to be together before they even officially took
over as all blacks cultures. So they've had about fifteen
months together before they coached the test match. How could
(02:54):
they have not realized that they weren't philosophically aligned at
that point?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Why would you not know that.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
You've surely sat down the pair of them, talked through
how they wanted to play, how the team would be
set up culturally, ethically, all the kind of things they
would enforce. So has something happened since they began. I'm
beginning to wonder whether something.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Has happened that has forced the split between them.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah, it must have happened.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I suppose the key Well, at the start, when you're
putting it together, you're you're writing things down, you're having conversations,
but you're actually not out on the training park. You're
not watching each other coach, you're not trying to I
suppose review in certain aspects. And one thing about it
when you look at it, I mean Liam McDonald assistant
coaches Attack, You've got Jason Holland assistant coach backs. Then
(03:39):
you've got Tomothy Allison contact skills coach. You know, you've
got to be able to get a lot of heads
around trying to implement something.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
So if they're not all cohesive and they're not all working.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Together, because they have to work together because you're trying
to put together a game plan. And then also you've
got Scott Hansen, who is probably the most important or
the most valued one when it comes to Scott Robins
because apparent he's the one in charge of game playing.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah. Yeah, well there's a lot of names there, isn't there?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah, there is.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I to get an alignment. The danger two dangers here. One,
there's a danger that the players may have felt jeepers
who we're listening to here because we've got multiple voices
on largely the same issues, very niche territories, so there
would be a problem. I'm wondering if Leon sat there
and felt that he was just being crowded out of
(04:29):
his job.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
He couldn't be.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Heard, he didn't have enough responsibility for his particular role,
but it was potentially going to lead to scenario where
he felt, well, I'll be accountable for it, but I
don't necessarily have enough responsibility for it, so I'll be
taking the blame for other.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
People not quite getting bits right.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
And I also wonder whether he loved the idea that
everybody got to select little bits of the team, which
is again an unusual idea. Isn't it that Leon? You
know he selects the back three, Jason Holland does the midfield,
Scott Hanson nine and ten. It's an unusual way and
never seen a team picked like that before.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And again you.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Talk about philosophical differences. Whether Leon knew that when he
signed up, or whether he thought, well, it might be
okay when we get in there, we'll see what happens.
But he had his reservations, got in there and went cheapers.
It's not quite it's exactly what I thought it doesn't
quite work like that.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And sometimes you know they're not saying too many cooks.
I wonder also, and you know, I know myself on
the head coach. You know he's been a head coach
in charge of everything at the Blues. Whether or not
it was tough not being able to probably be in
charge of things that that is total speculation, but you.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Could understand that.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
You know, you've gone from pulling all the strings now
you've got some strings that you're not in charge of.
So that could I mean smoke Elliot Smith and he said, Gregor,
that is actually a really brave decision. They've been transparent,
they're pretty open and honest, and you know they've made
a big call. But probably you know it's a it's
a side of bravery to make that call.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
I'd agree with that. Yeah, I mean it's probably terrible analogy.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
But if you've got a marriage that's not quite working,
A lot of marriages stick.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Together for the sake of the children. They think that's
the right thing to do.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
And you actually go, well, do you know what, living
with a bickering parents is maybe not the right thing
to do. It's actually going to impact the toxicity will
impact upon everybody. So the best thing to do is
make a really bold, quick, open, honest decision, say this
is not working out, because I don't know how transparent
their difficulties would have been on the training ground, and
(06:36):
if they were starting to impact the players, then you
have to say, well, we can't go to South Africa
with two guys who are not jelling her, not compatible,
they're not working together the way that we should be,
and there's no point in leaving at another two or
three test matches to see if it comes right right.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
It's clearly not going to come right, so let's do
it now before it becomes an even bigger problem. And
I was definitely impressed that the.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Candor that we got from them, there was no ubiquitous
family reasons or any euphemisms put behind the story.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
We got it up front. When we're not.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
Getting the full specifics and we probably never will, but
that's okay. We got enough out of them to go, look,
we're not compatible, it's not working. We've made a decision
to move on and part company. And yeah, it's definitely
the right way to have done.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
It, absolutely, And I suppose the best thing is you're
getting on a plane, so you're leaving.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
He's yelling. You're probably leaving them.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Always been, as we know, if they get a win
in the first teast in South Africa, everyone moves on
pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Well, I mean the bizarre thing is it's not unprecedented.
The last time No Blacks played two Test matches in
South Africa, we saw two assistant coaches removed from their
pulse as well.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
So it's just it's a different but similar scenario if
you like that.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
We've seen coaching changes impacted between the July Tests or
two Test matches before going to say that Africa and
they won in twenty twenty two when they made changes
to the coaching team and they brought Jason Ryan and
they won. When they went over there they won one
Test match. Maybe we'll see an immediate improvement in the
performance it Mike.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Do appreciate your time this morning, Gregor, you have a
great Dan and enjoy the weekend.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
There we go, Grega Paul joining us
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