Dr. Wendy has two amazing guests. We are talking to friend of the show, Dr. Kevin Volkan about his new book Human Aggression War and Genocide. PLUS we are talking to Michael Raduga author of Rem Psychology who's research shows that Lucid Dreaming Therapy (LDT) is an effective form of treatment for symptoms of serious mental illnesses such as PTSD and depression.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is doctor Wendy Walsh and you're listening to kf
I AM six forty the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on
demand on the iHeartRadio app. Welcome back to The Doctor
Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty live everywhere
on the iHeartRadio App. I am so thrilled to have
one of my favorite guests on the show. You probably
remember him. He's not only a colleague from cal State
(00:22):
Channel Islands. I think he's like the founder of the
psychology department and they got him from Harvard Medical School
or something. Doctor Kevin Vulcan. How are you? Are you blushing?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Oh? I'm terribly blushing, Wendy.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Thank you. No, you're like you know, you're You're like
a warm, loving, caring person. But you're also in encyclopedia.
And that's what I love about talking to you, as
I always feel smarter after I finished talking to you.
So I brought you on the show today because I
want to talk about the most common relationship trait that
(00:57):
people ask about on the Internet. And we're talking about
search terms here when they have questions about love or
their relationships, and that search term is narcissist or narcissism.
And now we have these very public examples of people
trying to have somewhat healthy discourse with a certain narcissist
(01:18):
who is in political power now. And so I want
you later to be able to comment on some of
the things you've seen in the news. But doctor Vulcan,
let's start at the beginning. What actually is a narcissist,
because there are a lot of people that are just
selfish that aren't narcissists, right.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yes, So I like to consider narcisism as a spectrum.
We have healthy narcissism, which also can be considered to
be having a healthy sense of self esteem, a healthy
sense of yourself. We have something I call compensatory narcissism.
And usually this is a kind of a narcissism where
someone usually sometime in later childhood, middle childhood, six five, six, seven,
(01:59):
eight nine years years old, they have some kind of
what we called narcisstic wounding, something happens to them, some
kind of traumatic event, and then they they compensate for that.
They they try to fill in the empty space they
have from that event by by pumping themselves up. And
these are people who generally very easily in psychotherapy or
(02:21):
even just you know, if you can get them to
think about themselves and reflect, will realize that they're being narcissistic,
that they that they are pumping themselves up the Instually,
they have insight and they can relate to other people
in a healthy manner. And you know, a lot of
politicians you can think of are like that. You know,
I think of the example that come to mind for
me are Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. You know, both
(02:44):
of them, you know, lost their dads when they were kids,
kind of traumatic event. You see that sometimes in kids
who are divorced parents, and then they compensate for that.
They they go into a field where they're going to
get lots of attention, they're going to be able to
show how great they are, and they compensate public service.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Right, my fingers are making quotation.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Mark public service something where they're going to be in
the public eye. But you know, these are people that
if you actually probably sat down and talked to them,
would you know, seem warm and like they really cared
about you, and they probably really would care about you.
And that's opposed to somebody worse on the spectrum, who
have what we call narcissistic personality disorder. This is a
diagnosed personality disorder. And these are people who the trauma
(03:26):
has come very early in their childhood, in infancy, and
they have a kind of apparent that gives them a
message of I hate you, don't leave me. But then
adds on to that the fact that the child is special.
Give the child the sense of feeling special, and what
they do is they coalesce their sense of self, their
sense of who they are, their identity around this feeling
(03:48):
of being special. The problem is is that feeling special
is transitory, so they don't feel that way all the time.
So they need constant admiration. They constantly need to be
pumped up. If they don't feel like they're getting pumped up,
they don't feel like they're getting the admiration to them,
it feels like annihilation. It feels like they're going to die,
they're going not going to exist anymore. So they constantly
have to get attention, constantly have to get admiration. And
(04:10):
then we add sort of the most severe to the
spectrum of the malignant narcissists. And malignant narcissists have to
get the admiration of the regular narcisstic personalities ordered person.
But they get that admiration through having their followers go
out and perform violence on some kind of targeted group,
in some kind of group that they project all their
(04:31):
bad things onto, and then they get their followers to
go out and get rid of those people.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
To those malignant narcissists always have followers or do they
I mean, I'm picturing a ruthless CEO, right, he'll get
other management to do the dirty work, or do they
do it themselves.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
That would be a way of their followers in the
sense of their people that got to pay it. They
have to pay attention to the narcisist. So CEOs could
be a good example political leaders, of course, you know,
people like Hitler. Hitler is a great example of miligant narcissists.
We have more in recent times, you know. And then
we have people we could debate whether they're how malignant
they are, but they're showing some signs of it. But
(05:10):
those are the people you really want to be careful about.
But we do see them among CEOs, And there's been
studies of CEOs to find that CEOs also have lots
of characteristics of what we call antisocial personalities or but
most people would know this as psychopathy or sociopathy. A
psychopath or a sociopath, and malignant narcissts share a lot
(05:31):
of traits with psychopaths or sociopaths. I'm using those terms interchangeably.
There's some small definitional differences, but for our conversation those
aren't really important. So just think of psychopath.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Where the rules don't belong to them.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, rules don't belong to them. They do whatever they
want to get whatever they whatever they want, they'll do
whatever it takes. They don't really have a sense of conscience,
you know, those kind of things. A lot of criminals
or psychopaths, that kind of thing, and the malignant narcisst
will have a lot of traits in common with us people,
and we studies have been done and found like CEOs
have lots of the Some CEOs have lots of psychopathic traits,
(06:07):
but they're not necessarily psychopaths. They just have some of
the traits. You can kind of say the same thing
about some narcissists.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Right, So, I want to share a secret with you.
When I was a young, hot blonde in my twenties
and modeling, I was objectified by a lot of these wealthy, successful,
powerful guys, and my girlfriends at the time would be like, Oh,
you should go out with him, or he should be
he'd be a great boyfriend for you. Oh my god,
he'd be a great first husband, they used to say.
(06:36):
And I never kissed the ring like they took a
few sniffs of me, and they'd be like, she's not
playing this game right. And I always thought to myself,
why don't I fit in with this power crowd. I
look like I should and I'm smart, but I just
couldn't do that game. So let's talk about having a
(06:56):
relationship with somebody who has Let's not talk about malignant
narcissist because we shouldn't have relationships with them. But you
know ones that have narcissistic traits, is there a certain
personality type that they are most often attracted to that
there are vulnerable to their you know, magical ways.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Well, let's keep it, let's keep it simple. I like
simple explanations. So my psychology colleagues may disagree with us,
but I think this makes sense. The person who will
hang out with the narcisst is either not smart enough
to know that they're being manipulated, by the narcissts or
they're really smart and they know that because the person
is narcissistic, that the narcissist can be manipulated. So you
(07:37):
got people either really not smart or really very smart
and very strategic, and those are the people who who
will tend to hang around the narcissists.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
That makes sense, right, And also I find if it's
a male narcissist, really highly sensitive empathetic women because they
feel sorry for the wound, and they will hang out
there as the door.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
That yeah, yeah, And a lot of times the narcissist
can manipulate these kind of women, especially women who have
a rescue or complex or have a kind of a
mommy complex. They want to fix the guy. And this
is true with other personality types as well. The not
just the narciss but the narciss will take advantage of
that to get attention from women like this. So they'll
(08:22):
they'll they'll they'll they'll use that, they'll give the woman
what they want enough of make him think they are
they are fixing this person. But then there but then
at the end, it's the narciss just getting attention. That's
the main thing. And you know, there's some great examples
in the media. I don't know if any of your
followers have watched the television show Mythic Quest, which is
(08:43):
and I was going to.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Mention White Lotus, is there's a.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
The New Ver, the New the new season of White Lotus.
There's some great examples of this, and uh, but Mythic Quest,
one of the one of the main characters, is a
perfect example of the kind of narcist. I mean, he's
just absolutely textbook.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Hey, doctor Vulcan, we have to run to a break.
I'm so sorry. This is how radio goes. Can you
hang with us for another segment? All right, you're listening
to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show and KFI AM six
forty Live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six forty.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Welcome back to the Dr Wendy Walls Show on KFI
AM six forty Live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. My
guest professor, founder of the psychology Department at California State University,
Channel Islands, doctor Kevin Bulkan, who has written about and
studied the minds of power people narcissists. All Right, we're
(09:39):
talking about relationships with narcissists. I want to talk about
what's been going on in our news because I don't
think you hold back your diagnosis when it comes to
the leader of the country right now, how would you
diagnose him?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Well, I have gone down in print as diagnos hosting
him as being narcissistic. But I will make the point
that I diagnosed him long before he went into politics.
So I maintained I don't need to change my mind
about things just because the guy went and got himself elected.
But yes, I think I think you know, to some
degree he is is a textbook narcissist, shows lots of
(10:22):
the signs, if not most of, if all of them,
and I have gone, you know, I feel a little
there's a little paranoia in saying this out loud to
the to the audience, and I don't want to. I
don't want to disparage anybody's political beliefs or the fact
that you like somebody, because the truth of the matter
is there's narcisst in all political spectrums. There's plenty of
narciss On the left, there's plenty of narcis and the right,
(10:44):
there's narciss in the middle, and you know they're they're
all over the place, So I don't want to disparage
anybody's political thoughts. It is because the person elected is
a narcisst but certainly that that would have been my
my diagnosis, and I will make the caveat this is
a diagnosis from a distance, so it's only a preliminary thought.
It's not anything official because you know, we are as
(11:05):
psychologists not supposed to be diagnosing people unless you know
we are seeing them, you know, personally and everything. So
anything I say is is is somewhat speculative.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Right, well, personal opinion. So well, what's interesting is that
various world leaders and they may have their own versions
of narcissism. As you said, the politics attract them, for sure.
Various leaders of other countries have shown up at the
White House to meet them, and I've noticed a different
kind of style of relating. And I wanted you to
(11:37):
point out not because we need to have a conversation
about politics, but because there's information here for all of
us in our relationships. A lot of people listening might
be in a relationship who's with somebody who has a
little bit of narcissism. Right, You mentioned it's a spectrum,
and so there are different ways that they could relate.
Could you compare for me how the leader of the
(12:00):
Prime Minister, Kiir Starmer related to President Trump compared to
say uh Zelensky from Ukraine. What were the big differences there?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
So, you know, Starmer as far as I know, and
I'm not an expert on Starmer, but I you know,
what I know of him is that he's kind of
a little bit He's got a kind of a little
bit obsessive, compulsive personality in a good way. You know,
He's very detail oriented, might have a little bit of
social anxiety. Sometimes he comes off being a little enigmatic mysterious,
but he's basically kind of lacks a lot of charisma.
(12:35):
And you know, but he did a smart thing for Trump.
He knew that Trump responds to flattery, so he got
this invitation from the King, you know, and brought it
to Trump. And that was a pretty good strategy. That
wasn't a bad strategy, but he wasn't he wasn't prepared
with a contingency, not flexible enough personality wise. When that
(12:55):
didn't go well, right, and I can't remember what exactly was,
somebody else got an invitation or something and that didn't
go well, so he wasn't able to, like, you know,
switch gears really quick.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
And so are you saying that some narcissists don't even
know that they're being flattered? And you mentioned earlier that
there are two kinds of people in the aura of
a narcissist. One are people who might not understand that
they're being manipulated, and another group who are highly intelligent
and manipulate the narcissist back. So are you saying that
(13:29):
some narcissists, you can flatter them and compliment them and
they just eat it up. They don't even know that
it's a game.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Well, whether they know or not, the need for attention
and to have that sense of self pumped up so much,
what we call the grandiose self, keep that pumped up
is so important. That's an existential question for these people.
If that grandiose self is not pumped up, they're going
to feel like they don't exist, So that overrides anything
they might realize that this guy's flattering them, you know,
(13:57):
unless it's something so obvious that the strategy is in.
The narciss knows it's going to in the end, you know,
damage their reputation or keep them from getting attention. Generally,
they won't really care as much as long as they're
getting that admiration coming in, that attention coming in. And
I think Starmer, you know, started a good idea, but
he didn't really he wasn't really flexible enough to adapt
(14:19):
on the fly to Trump being somewhat erratic. And Trump
is a little bit erratic, you know, in the way
he's dealing with things, and that also may be a
strategy that Trump uses, but this guy wasn't. He wasn't
really able to really on the fly flexibly adapt at
least that's my take on it. And I would say
also there are other leaders that are similar to that.
I would say the German UH Prime Minister Schultz similar
(14:43):
to Starmer, you know, again, very pragmatic, very you know,
detail oriented guy, a little bit obsessive, also kind of
you know, having a workship with Trump. Very difficult for
these kind of guys, right.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
And that well, I think worse for Zelensky because he's
he having his own existential crisis, which is living or
dying as a country.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yes, yes. And Zolensky, however, is more I think emotionally intelligent,
and is very charismatic. He's also creative and very adaptable,
very resilient. But as you said, he's in a very
very bad situation. He's being attacked by one of the
people that Trump most admires and sees himself in, which
is Putin, and so Zelensky becomes a foil that Trump
(15:27):
can then project his own negative qualities onto, and then
it becomes very easy to beat Zelensky wild he's down.
I think we saw that in the White House meeting.
To some degree, Zolensky has not figured out how to
manipulate Trump, or we manipulate Trump's need for admiration and
attention to his Let me.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Ask you this question. So when Zelensky got out of
the car and the first thing President Trump did is
insult his clothes, and I thought that was interesting. Is
that sort of a little like a shot across the bow,
like let me see if I have control of you,
let me kick Ki a little bit. And what could
Zelensky have said in response to I think President Trump's
(16:06):
made a sarcastic comment like I see you dressed up
for the occasion. What could Zelenski have said to, you know,
kiss the ring? Bow down?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
To him at that point, he should have said, in
my opinion, again just my opinion, he should have said,
you're absolutely right, President Trump, will you please help me
to find the right clothes because you are such a
fantastic dresser, would.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
And he would have shamed.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
He has a hard time doing that because Zolensky has
not only you know, his own sense of self work,
which is being attacked, you know, in a physical existential way,
but he also has to and these leaders, you have
to remember, they have to respond also not just to Trump,
but to their constituents. So they have two, you know,
very opposite kinds of you know, images they have to project,
(16:55):
and they've got to find a balance between those things.
And Zolensky, you know, when you got in the White
House and he's starting he's trying to talk to Trump,
he's trying to tell Trump things. He's trying to talk
over Trump, and that's just a big mistake. Right away,
when I was watching that, I knew that was going
to be a mistake.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Hey, doctor Vulcan, we're running out of time again. I'm
so sorry. Before we go, just some very quick thoughts
on if somebody is in a relationship with somebody who
has pretty strong narcissistic traits. Is there any way for
it to work out? Or should they be thinking about leaving?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
It really depends on the person and the individual. If
somebody is really on this more severe end of the
narcissistic personality disorder of spectrum, probably best to like maybe
take a break and then reassess and maybe think that's
not going to necessarily be the best situation. It's very
hard to change that kind of narcissist. They're not really
going to change very easily.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Oh yeah, don't hope they're going to change, that's for sure. Oh,
doctor Kevin Vulcan, it's always a pleasure to have you
on the show. I hope to have you again in
the future. You have such good wisdom to add into
our lives. Thanks for being with us.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
And by the way, I want everyone to know that
you do have a new book out. It is called
Human Aggression, War and Genocide. Ooh, it's a dark topic.
The subtitle The Psychological Roots of Violence by doctor Kevin Vulcan.
You can find it anywhere Human Aggression, War and Genocide.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
You're listening to doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six forty.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI
AM six forty, live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You know,
I have always been a big dreamer. And when I
say big dreamer, I don't just mean having goals in
my life, because I've been a big dreamer that way too.
But I'm the kind of person who remembers her dreams
almost every morning, and before I go back to sleep
(18:54):
the next night, I have to pick up that thread.
I have to like continue the story, and then I
go right back into my dream life. You know, there
are so many theories about why we dream, what dreams mean,
and actually believe it or not. There's a kind of
dreaming that's now used to treat some mental illnesses like
(19:16):
depression or fears, like post traumatic stress disorder. So I
want to bring in an expert, Michael Riduga, who's CEO
of a company called rem Space and author of rem RAM.
You know what that means, rapid eye movement psychology, and
he has conducted research on something called lucid dreaming. Michael,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Hi, wend Did I think you're shoring the wis un? So?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
First of all, can we talk a little bit about
the theories out there of why people dream. I know
Sigmund Freud said it was the royal road to the unconscious,
and it was unconscious memories trying to find their way
through using metaphors and symbols. What do you think our
purpose of dreaming is.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
I'm pretty sure that we need dreams on purpose and
for our brain. It is a way how we can
pose this information, how we can prepare ourselves subconsciously for
events in physical life. So it's like, you know, there
are many startups in Silicon Valley which are specialized on
(20:26):
developing robots and they train them in a virtual reality,
and our dreams work in a similar way. Subconsciously we
train ourselves and prepare ourselves for challenges of real life.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
So you think dreams are training our brain for it's
almost our own version of virtual reality, so that it's
preparing us for life stressors that might be coming ahead.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Yes, it's it's not to be witched by these location,
But mostly I'm pretty sure that it's like an additional
space for our brain to totraynas stop, to polish different skills,
to prepare us for different challenges, and so on. I'm
pretty sure it works this way.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
And some scientists say that it's sort of cleaning our
brain out from the debris of the day, and when
we dream about certain things, that's you know, feelings and
leftover residue of thoughts and feelings from the day. We've
just had another purpose.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
I'm sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yes, And our doings help
us to refine information, to process it, living only what
we really need for our life.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
And I also want to be clear to our audience
that there is no research that supports any idea that
if you dream about a specific thing it means this.
The true truth is what we dream about, what our brains,
our individual minds choose as metaphors and symbols are unique
to us. So you can't say, well, if you dream
(22:09):
about snakes, it means a bad days ahead, or if
you dream about a hair brush, it means you know,
because it's different for everybody, right.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
Yeah, that's right, But sometimes it may it really work.
For example, is the thing that snakes are bad and
your subconsciousness somehow knows that something is coming, but your
consciousness is not aware about it. Your dreams may somehow
show it me send signals to you but of course
(22:42):
there's no proofs that it is possible. But you know,
when you talk to people, they tell stories like this
all the time.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
So you think dreams can be prophetic. They can predict
the future a bit.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
It's a little bit sometimes, and I don't say that
you can control it and you can be like a
psychic see the future from your dreams, but sometimes, definitely
it works. And I'm pretty sure that maybe fifty percent
of people have experienced it at least once in their life.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Well, you're talking to somebody who's experienced it a lot,
and I was like, am I crazy? But I've actually
dreamed things and then they happen. Then it's usually something
not important, and it happens like the next day, like
kind of a deja vu. But clearly I remember the
dream too, so it's not like that, just that feeling
of deja vu. But like, wait, I just dreamed this
(23:38):
last night. I can't believe it's happening. All right, let
us talk to the about the area of interest for
you and your company, which is lucid dreaming dreaming. How
would you just define lucid dreaming?
Speaker 4 (23:56):
Okay, we should do. Dreams are situations when we have
consciousness during or RAM sleep. Well, usually we see baby dreams,
we experience big dreams during rem sleep, but sometimes we
have consciousness and as a result we experience of this
(24:19):
phenomenon lucy enjoying.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
I like to explain to my students, my health psychology students,
that it's like you know, when you're half asleep and
half awake and you can still grab parts of the
dream and think about it, but then you know you're
waking up at the same time. That's that's what lucid
dreaming is, right.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
No dis disagree?
Speaker 1 (24:40):
What would you say it is? How would someone get
into a state of lucid dreaming?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Now?
Speaker 4 (24:46):
It is the biggest difference between common dreams and news
dreams is in your perception, because when you have consciousness
during rem sleep, everything perceives as reality. Because when people
talk about wuisy dreams or think about them, they just
(25:08):
imagine common dreams which sometimes very bury a senseless and
not vivid, and they think, Okay, what's the point of
having a control over it? But in reality these experiences
are so berevious that there often people don't see the
difference between reality and lucidreams. That's the reason for all
(25:32):
those supernatural stories about alien abductions, religious visions upon awakening
and so on and so on.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Because you think these people are actually experiencing a lucid dream.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Yeah, yeah, because but everything looks so real that they
cannot believe that it is a dream. They think that
everything happens for you. So it proves how vivid sensations
during this are you just you don't see the difference
between physical world and these worlds during the REM sleep.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Okay, when we come back, we have to go for
a break. I want to talk about how people can
learn to practice lucid dreaming and it's applications for mental health.
So stay with us. My guest is Michael Reduga, CEO
of REM Space and author of rem Psychology. He's conducted
research on lucid dreaming that has actually helped people lower
(26:31):
fears and anxiety and relieve symptoms of depression. We'll talk
more about this when we come back. You are listening
to the Dr Wendy wall Show on KFI AM six forty.
We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six forty.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Welcome back to the Dr Wendy Wall Show on you.
I Am six order Live Everywhere on the Heart Radio app.
My guest is Michael Raduga, CEO of REM Space and
author of rem Psychology. Our topic is lucid dreaming. Okay, Michael,
can anybody learn to experience lucid dreaming?
Speaker 4 (27:11):
Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I'm positive. And you know, it
seems that you could be a very lucid dreamer because
you see a lot of dreams and it's a first
sign of good chances to learn this phenomenon.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
So people like me who remember their dreams easily have
much easier time. Okay, so what do I do? Tell
me how to get into a lucid dream?
Speaker 4 (27:36):
So, first of all, you should understand that your intention
is the key factor here. It means that when you
fall asleep, you should think about some impressive, some exciting
goals which you would like to achieve in a lucid dream,
for example, to level somewhere or seeing somebody, for example
(27:58):
your reality partner or diseased relatives, or some fantasies, and
you think about it, you think about desire to achieve it,
and you fall asleep with this intention, and there's a
high chance that your intention will be transformed into consciousness
while dreaming or when you wake up. Every time, when
(28:21):
you wake up, during the first seconds up and awakening,
you may try to limitate, you may try to roll
out from your body without using your muscles. And the
reason is that actually it is much easier to induce
wecy dreams upon waking up and awakening because very often
(28:43):
when we wake wake up, during the first minutes, we
are still actually our brain is still asleep. So it
means that during the first few seconds of awakening you
can induce weacy dreams eagerly by just trying to limitate
getting up or rolling out of your body without using muscles.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
So you're using the word induce a lucid dream. So
let's say, you know, I put this intention as I'm
falling asleep, I tell myself over and over, this is
the thing I want to feel or experience or see.
And then as I'm waking up, I do something with
my thoughts. What do I do?
Speaker 4 (29:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Once again, when you wake up,
it's highly possible that your brain is still in this
ram sleep and it means that any of your actions
up on waken and they leads to reinducing of sleep,
(29:47):
but with consciousness. So you wake up and during the
first seconds, the first seconds, try to limitate. Lets literally,
I know that you.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Levitate, like literally right out of my body.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
Literally, let's literally try to live it. Taate or try
to roll out of Try try to roll out from
your body or try to get out without using muscles.
It sounds ridiculous, I know, but once again, when you
wake up during the first second, it's highly possible that
your brain is still asleep despite your consciousness.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Okay, so let's assume I've been able to roll out
of bed without moving a muscle, in other words, levitate,
and now do I look down at myself? What do
I What do I try to do with this intention
that I implanted the night before.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Then, for example, you try it five times, and out
of those five attempts, one or two times you will
actually livitate or roll out of your body, and you
will find yourself in a dream. It will look like
(30:57):
out of body experience, but in reality it's your dream world.
And starting from this positions, this moment, you can realize
any of your goals. So just make as many attempts
as possible, and a few of them will be effective.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Now, according to your research, this using this lucid dreaming
technique has been used to treat post traumatic stress disorder
and depression. How how does it work to treat fears
and sadness?
Speaker 4 (31:30):
Once again, it is all about vividness of this experience
because your brain and your subconsciousness perceives these dreams as reality,
meaning that, for example, if you have some psychological issues,
instead of thinking about them, instead of imagining some solutions,
(31:50):
you can relieve different situations. And when we talk about
application of rich dreaming, the highest number of scientific research
about this dreaming application is about psychology. It's depression, it's nightmares,
(32:11):
obvious complexes, post traumatic syndrome, and so on.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
You know, it's so interesting when I hear you explaining this,
So I have to tell you a story. When I
was like about twelve years old, we moved to a
neighborhood where there was a community swimming pool with a lifeguard.
You were not allowed to be there without a parent
unless you could in front of the lifeguard swim two
lengths of the pool back and forth. I was terrified.
(32:39):
I was so afraid of drowning. I'd had a couple
near drowning experiences as a child. I was terrified. It
wasn't about my ability to be strong enough for the stroke.
I was just so afraid to swim since a length.
And one night I went to sleep and I told myself,
I'm going to swim. I am going to swim. I
am going to swim those two lengths. And when I
(33:00):
woke up in the morning, I literally saw myself while
I was in bed swimming. Later in the day, I
kind of forgot about that dream. I went to the pool,
I said the lifeguard, I'm ready. I'm going to do
those two laps. I swam twenty laps in front of him,
so I know what you're talking about. It works.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
It's a very good example. So it could be not
only a daring advanced to each dreamer, but also a swimmer.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I'm not a great swimmer now, but I got to
go to the pool without my parents, and that's what mattered.
How do people, Michael Raduga, how do people find out
more about remspace and your book rem Psychology.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
You just can find it's on Amazon or in Psychology,
and it's a it's a it's the only book about
using each during use for solven different psychological issues.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Well, I can't wait to read it. The book is
rem psych Collegey CEO of MS BASS, Michael Riduga, thank
you so much for joining us today. Thank you, and
that brings the Doctor Wendy Wall Show to a close.
It's always my pleasure to be with you every Sunday
from seven to nine pm. If you missed any part
(34:16):
of the show, you can always find it later on
the iHeartRadio app. You've been listening to the Doctor Wendy
Walls Show on KFI AM six forty. You've been listening
to Doctor Wendy Waalsh. You can always hear us live
on KFI AM six forty from seven to nine pm
on Sunday and anytime on demand on the iHeartRadio app.
This is doctor Wendy Walsh and you're listening to kf
I AM six forty the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on
demand on the iHeartRadio app. Welcome back to The Doctor
Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty live everywhere
on the iHeartRadio App. I am so thrilled to have
one of my favorite guests on the show. You probably
remember him. He's not only a colleague from cal State
(00:22):
Channel Islands. I think he's like the founder of the
psychology department and they got him from Harvard Medical School
or something. Doctor Kevin Vulcan. How are you? Are you blushing?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Oh? I'm terribly blushing, Wendy.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Thank you. No, you're like you know, you're You're like
a warm, loving, caring person. But you're also in encyclopedia.
And that's what I love about talking to you, as
I always feel smarter after I finished talking to you.
So I brought you on the show today because I
want to talk about the most common relationship trait that
(00:57):
people ask about on the Internet. And we're talking about
search terms here when they have questions about love or
their relationships, and that search term is narcissist or narcissism.
And now we have these very public examples of people
trying to have somewhat healthy discourse with a certain narcissist
(01:18):
who is in political power now. And so I want
you later to be able to comment on some of
the things you've seen in the news. But doctor Vulcan,
let's start at the beginning. What actually is a narcissist,
because there are a lot of people that are just
selfish that aren't narcissists, right.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yes, So I like to consider narcisism as a spectrum.
We have healthy narcissism, which also can be considered to
be having a healthy sense of self esteem, a healthy
sense of yourself. We have something I call compensatory narcissism.
And usually this is a kind of a narcissism where
someone usually sometime in later childhood, middle childhood, six five, six, seven,
(01:59):
eight nine years years old, they have some kind of
what we called narcisstic wounding, something happens to them, some
kind of traumatic event, and then they they compensate for that.
They they try to fill in the empty space they
have from that event by by pumping themselves up. And
these are people who generally very easily in psychotherapy or
(02:21):
even just you know, if you can get them to
think about themselves and reflect, will realize that they're being narcissistic,
that they that they are pumping themselves up the Instually,
they have insight and they can relate to other people
in a healthy manner. And you know, a lot of
politicians you can think of are like that. You know,
I think of the example that come to mind for
me are Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. You know, both
(02:44):
of them, you know, lost their dads when they were kids,
kind of traumatic event. You see that sometimes in kids
who are divorced parents, and then they compensate for that.
They they go into a field where they're going to
get lots of attention, they're going to be able to
show how great they are, and they compensate public service.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Right, my fingers are making quotation.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Mark public service something where they're going to be in
the public eye. But you know, these are people that
if you actually probably sat down and talked to them,
would you know, seem warm and like they really cared
about you, and they probably really would care about you.
And that's opposed to somebody worse on the spectrum, who
have what we call narcissistic personality disorder. This is a
diagnosed personality disorder. And these are people who the trauma
(03:26):
has come very early in their childhood, in infancy, and
they have a kind of apparent that gives them a
message of I hate you, don't leave me. But then
adds on to that the fact that the child is special.
Give the child the sense of feeling special, and what
they do is they coalesce their sense of self, their
sense of who they are, their identity around this feeling
(03:48):
of being special. The problem is is that feeling special
is transitory, so they don't feel that way all the time.
So they need constant admiration. They constantly need to be
pumped up. If they don't feel like they're getting pumped up,
they don't feel like they're getting the admiration to them,
it feels like annihilation. It feels like they're going to die,
they're going not going to exist anymore. So they constantly
have to get attention, constantly have to get admiration. And
(04:10):
then we add sort of the most severe to the
spectrum of the malignant narcissists. And malignant narcissists have to
get the admiration of the regular narcisstic personalities ordered person.
But they get that admiration through having their followers go
out and perform violence on some kind of targeted group,
in some kind of group that they project all their
(04:31):
bad things onto, and then they get their followers to
go out and get rid of those people.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
To those malignant narcissists always have followers or do they
I mean, I'm picturing a ruthless CEO, right, he'll get
other management to do the dirty work, or do they
do it themselves.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
That would be a way of their followers in the
sense of their people that got to pay it. They
have to pay attention to the narcisist. So CEOs could
be a good example political leaders, of course, you know,
people like Hitler. Hitler is a great example of miligant narcissists.
We have more in recent times, you know. And then
we have people we could debate whether they're how malignant
they are, but they're showing some signs of it. But
(05:10):
those are the people you really want to be careful about.
But we do see them among CEOs, And there's been
studies of CEOs to find that CEOs also have lots
of characteristics of what we call antisocial personalities or but
most people would know this as psychopathy or sociopathy. A
psychopath or a sociopath, and malignant narcissts share a lot
(05:31):
of traits with psychopaths or sociopaths. I'm using those terms interchangeably.
There's some small definitional differences, but for our conversation those
aren't really important. So just think of psychopath.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Where the rules don't belong to them.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, rules don't belong to them. They do whatever they
want to get whatever they whatever they want, they'll do
whatever it takes. They don't really have a sense of conscience,
you know, those kind of things. A lot of criminals
or psychopaths, that kind of thing, and the malignant narcisst
will have a lot of traits in common with us people,
and we studies have been done and found like CEOs
have lots of the Some CEOs have lots of psychopathic traits,
(06:07):
but they're not necessarily psychopaths. They just have some of
the traits. You can kind of say the same thing
about some narcissists.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Right, So, I want to share a secret with you.
When I was a young, hot blonde in my twenties
and modeling, I was objectified by a lot of these wealthy, successful,
powerful guys, and my girlfriends at the time would be like, Oh,
you should go out with him, or he should be
he'd be a great boyfriend for you. Oh my god,
he'd be a great first husband, they used to say.
(06:36):
And I never kissed the ring like they took a
few sniffs of me, and they'd be like, she's not
playing this game right. And I always thought to myself,
why don't I fit in with this power crowd. I
look like I should and I'm smart, but I just
couldn't do that game. So let's talk about having a
(06:56):
relationship with somebody who has Let's not talk about malignant
narcissist because we shouldn't have relationships with them. But you
know ones that have narcissistic traits, is there a certain
personality type that they are most often attracted to that
there are vulnerable to their you know, magical ways.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Well, let's keep it, let's keep it simple. I like
simple explanations. So my psychology colleagues may disagree with us,
but I think this makes sense. The person who will
hang out with the narcisst is either not smart enough
to know that they're being manipulated, by the narcissts or
they're really smart and they know that because the person
is narcissistic, that the narcissist can be manipulated. So you
(07:37):
got people either really not smart or really very smart
and very strategic, and those are the people who who
will tend to hang around the narcissists.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
That makes sense, right, And also I find if it's
a male narcissist, really highly sensitive empathetic women because they
feel sorry for the wound, and they will hang out
there as the door.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
That yeah, yeah, And a lot of times the narcissist
can manipulate these kind of women, especially women who have
a rescue or complex or have a kind of a
mommy complex. They want to fix the guy. And this
is true with other personality types as well. The not
just the narciss but the narciss will take advantage of
that to get attention from women like this. So they'll
(08:22):
they'll they'll they'll they'll use that, they'll give the woman
what they want enough of make him think they are
they are fixing this person. But then there but then
at the end, it's the narciss just getting attention. That's
the main thing. And you know, there's some great examples
in the media. I don't know if any of your
followers have watched the television show Mythic Quest, which is
(08:43):
and I was going to.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Mention White Lotus, is there's a.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
The New Ver, the New the new season of White Lotus.
There's some great examples of this, and uh, but Mythic Quest,
one of the one of the main characters, is a
perfect example of the kind of narcist. I mean, he's
just absolutely textbook.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Hey, doctor Vulcan, we have to run to a break.
I'm so sorry. This is how radio goes. Can you
hang with us for another segment? All right, you're listening
to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show and KFI AM six
forty Live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six forty.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Welcome back to the Dr Wendy Walls Show on KFI
AM six forty Live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. My
guest professor, founder of the psychology Department at California State University,
Channel Islands, doctor Kevin Bulkan, who has written about and
studied the minds of power people narcissists. All Right, we're
(09:39):
talking about relationships with narcissists. I want to talk about
what's been going on in our news because I don't
think you hold back your diagnosis when it comes to
the leader of the country right now, how would you
diagnose him?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Well, I have gone down in print as diagnos hosting
him as being narcissistic. But I will make the point
that I diagnosed him long before he went into politics.
So I maintained I don't need to change my mind
about things just because the guy went and got himself elected.
But yes, I think I think you know, to some
degree he is is a textbook narcissist, shows lots of
(10:22):
the signs, if not most of, if all of them,
and I have gone, you know, I feel a little
there's a little paranoia in saying this out loud to
the to the audience, and I don't want to. I
don't want to disparage anybody's political beliefs or the fact
that you like somebody, because the truth of the matter
is there's narcisst in all political spectrums. There's plenty of
narciss On the left, there's plenty of narcis and the right,
(10:44):
there's narciss in the middle, and you know they're they're
all over the place, So I don't want to disparage
anybody's political thoughts. It is because the person elected is
a narcisst but certainly that that would have been my
my diagnosis, and I will make the caveat this is
a diagnosis from a distance, so it's only a preliminary thought.
It's not anything official because you know, we are as
(11:05):
psychologists not supposed to be diagnosing people unless you know
we are seeing them, you know, personally and everything. So
anything I say is is is somewhat speculative.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Right, well, personal opinion. So well, what's interesting is that
various world leaders and they may have their own versions
of narcissism. As you said, the politics attract them, for sure.
Various leaders of other countries have shown up at the
White House to meet them, and I've noticed a different
kind of style of relating. And I wanted you to
(11:37):
point out not because we need to have a conversation
about politics, but because there's information here for all of
us in our relationships. A lot of people listening might
be in a relationship who's with somebody who has a
little bit of narcissism. Right, You mentioned it's a spectrum,
and so there are different ways that they could relate.
Could you compare for me how the leader of the
(12:00):
Prime Minister, Kiir Starmer related to President Trump compared to
say uh Zelensky from Ukraine. What were the big differences there?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
So, you know, Starmer as far as I know, and
I'm not an expert on Starmer, but I you know,
what I know of him is that he's kind of
a little bit He's got a kind of a little
bit obsessive, compulsive personality in a good way. You know,
He's very detail oriented, might have a little bit of
social anxiety. Sometimes he comes off being a little enigmatic mysterious,
but he's basically kind of lacks a lot of charisma.
(12:35):
And you know, but he did a smart thing for Trump.
He knew that Trump responds to flattery, so he got
this invitation from the King, you know, and brought it
to Trump. And that was a pretty good strategy. That
wasn't a bad strategy, but he wasn't he wasn't prepared
with a contingency, not flexible enough personality wise. When that
(12:55):
didn't go well, right, and I can't remember what exactly was,
somebody else got an invitation or something and that didn't
go well, so he wasn't able to, like, you know,
switch gears really quick.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
And so are you saying that some narcissists don't even
know that they're being flattered? And you mentioned earlier that
there are two kinds of people in the aura of
a narcissist. One are people who might not understand that
they're being manipulated, and another group who are highly intelligent
and manipulate the narcissist back. So are you saying that
(13:29):
some narcissists, you can flatter them and compliment them and
they just eat it up. They don't even know that
it's a game.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Well, whether they know or not, the need for attention
and to have that sense of self pumped up so much,
what we call the grandiose self, keep that pumped up
is so important. That's an existential question for these people.
If that grandiose self is not pumped up, they're going
to feel like they don't exist, So that overrides anything
they might realize that this guy's flattering them, you know,
(13:57):
unless it's something so obvious that the strategy is in.
The narciss knows it's going to in the end, you know,
damage their reputation or keep them from getting attention. Generally,
they won't really care as much as long as they're
getting that admiration coming in, that attention coming in. And
I think Starmer, you know, started a good idea, but
he didn't really he wasn't really flexible enough to adapt
(14:19):
on the fly to Trump being somewhat erratic. And Trump
is a little bit erratic, you know, in the way
he's dealing with things, and that also may be a
strategy that Trump uses, but this guy wasn't. He wasn't
really able to really on the fly flexibly adapt at
least that's my take on it. And I would say
also there are other leaders that are similar to that.
I would say the German UH Prime Minister Schultz similar
(14:43):
to Starmer, you know, again, very pragmatic, very you know,
detail oriented guy, a little bit obsessive, also kind of
you know, having a workship with Trump. Very difficult for
these kind of guys, right.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
And that well, I think worse for Zelensky because he's
he having his own existential crisis, which is living or
dying as a country.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yes, yes. And Zolensky, however, is more I think emotionally intelligent,
and is very charismatic. He's also creative and very adaptable,
very resilient. But as you said, he's in a very
very bad situation. He's being attacked by one of the
people that Trump most admires and sees himself in, which
is Putin, and so Zelensky becomes a foil that Trump
(15:27):
can then project his own negative qualities onto, and then
it becomes very easy to beat Zelensky wild he's down.
I think we saw that in the White House meeting.
To some degree, Zolensky has not figured out how to
manipulate Trump, or we manipulate Trump's need for admiration and
attention to his Let me.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Ask you this question. So when Zelensky got out of
the car and the first thing President Trump did is
insult his clothes, and I thought that was interesting. Is
that sort of a little like a shot across the bow,
like let me see if I have control of you,
let me kick Ki a little bit. And what could
Zelensky have said in response to I think President Trump's
(16:06):
made a sarcastic comment like I see you dressed up
for the occasion. What could Zelenski have said to, you know,
kiss the ring? Bow down?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
To him at that point, he should have said, in
my opinion, again just my opinion, he should have said,
you're absolutely right, President Trump, will you please help me
to find the right clothes because you are such a
fantastic dresser, would.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
And he would have shamed.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
He has a hard time doing that because Zolensky has
not only you know, his own sense of self work,
which is being attacked, you know, in a physical existential way,
but he also has to and these leaders, you have
to remember, they have to respond also not just to Trump,
but to their constituents. So they have two, you know,
very opposite kinds of you know, images they have to project,
(16:55):
and they've got to find a balance between those things.
And Zolensky, you know, when you got in the White
House and he's starting he's trying to talk to Trump,
he's trying to tell Trump things. He's trying to talk
over Trump, and that's just a big mistake. Right away,
when I was watching that, I knew that was going
to be a mistake.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Hey, doctor Vulcan, we're running out of time again. I'm
so sorry. Before we go, just some very quick thoughts
on if somebody is in a relationship with somebody who
has pretty strong narcissistic traits. Is there any way for
it to work out? Or should they be thinking about leaving?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
It really depends on the person and the individual. If
somebody is really on this more severe end of the
narcissistic personality disorder of spectrum, probably best to like maybe
take a break and then reassess and maybe think that's
not going to necessarily be the best situation. It's very
hard to change that kind of narcissist. They're not really
going to change very easily.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Oh yeah, don't hope they're going to change, that's for sure. Oh,
doctor Kevin Vulcan, it's always a pleasure to have you
on the show. I hope to have you again in
the future. You have such good wisdom to add into
our lives. Thanks for being with us.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
And by the way, I want everyone to know that
you do have a new book out. It is called
Human Aggression, War and Genocide. Ooh, it's a dark topic.
The subtitle The Psychological Roots of Violence by doctor Kevin Vulcan.
You can find it anywhere Human Aggression, War and Genocide.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
You're listening to doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six forty.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI
AM six forty, live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You know,
I have always been a big dreamer. And when I
say big dreamer, I don't just mean having goals in
my life, because I've been a big dreamer that way too.
But I'm the kind of person who remembers her dreams
almost every morning, and before I go back to sleep
(18:54):
the next night, I have to pick up that thread.
I have to like continue the story, and then I
go right back into my dream life. You know, there
are so many theories about why we dream, what dreams mean,
and actually believe it or not. There's a kind of
dreaming that's now used to treat some mental illnesses like
(19:16):
depression or fears, like post traumatic stress disorder. So I
want to bring in an expert, Michael Riduga, who's CEO
of a company called rem Space and author of rem RAM.
You know what that means, rapid eye movement psychology, and
he has conducted research on something called lucid dreaming. Michael,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Hi, wend Did I think you're shoring the wis un? So?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
First of all, can we talk a little bit about
the theories out there of why people dream. I know
Sigmund Freud said it was the royal road to the unconscious,
and it was unconscious memories trying to find their way
through using metaphors and symbols. What do you think our
purpose of dreaming is.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
I'm pretty sure that we need dreams on purpose and
for our brain. It is a way how we can
pose this information, how we can prepare ourselves subconsciously for
events in physical life. So it's like, you know, there
are many startups in Silicon Valley which are specialized on
(20:26):
developing robots and they train them in a virtual reality,
and our dreams work in a similar way. Subconsciously we
train ourselves and prepare ourselves for challenges of real life.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
So you think dreams are training our brain for it's
almost our own version of virtual reality, so that it's
preparing us for life stressors that might be coming ahead.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Yes, it's it's not to be witched by these location,
But mostly I'm pretty sure that it's like an additional
space for our brain to totraynas stop, to polish different skills,
to prepare us for different challenges, and so on. I'm
pretty sure it works this way.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
And some scientists say that it's sort of cleaning our
brain out from the debris of the day, and when
we dream about certain things, that's you know, feelings and
leftover residue of thoughts and feelings from the day. We've
just had another purpose.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
I'm sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yes, And our doings help
us to refine information, to process it, living only what
we really need for our life.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
And I also want to be clear to our audience
that there is no research that supports any idea that
if you dream about a specific thing it means this.
The true truth is what we dream about, what our brains,
our individual minds choose as metaphors and symbols are unique
to us. So you can't say, well, if you dream
(22:09):
about snakes, it means a bad days ahead, or if
you dream about a hair brush, it means you know,
because it's different for everybody, right.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
Yeah, that's right, But sometimes it may it really work.
For example, is the thing that snakes are bad and
your subconsciousness somehow knows that something is coming, but your
consciousness is not aware about it. Your dreams may somehow
show it me send signals to you but of course
(22:42):
there's no proofs that it is possible. But you know,
when you talk to people, they tell stories like this
all the time.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
So you think dreams can be prophetic. They can predict
the future a bit.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
It's a little bit sometimes, and I don't say that
you can control it and you can be like a
psychic see the future from your dreams, but sometimes, definitely
it works. And I'm pretty sure that maybe fifty percent
of people have experienced it at least once in their life.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Well, you're talking to somebody who's experienced it a lot,
and I was like, am I crazy? But I've actually
dreamed things and then they happen. Then it's usually something
not important, and it happens like the next day, like
kind of a deja vu. But clearly I remember the
dream too, so it's not like that, just that feeling
of deja vu. But like, wait, I just dreamed this
(23:38):
last night. I can't believe it's happening. All right, let
us talk to the about the area of interest for
you and your company, which is lucid dreaming dreaming. How
would you just define lucid dreaming?
Speaker 4 (23:56):
Okay, we should do. Dreams are situations when we have
consciousness during or RAM sleep. Well, usually we see baby dreams,
we experience big dreams during rem sleep, but sometimes we
have consciousness and as a result we experience of this
(24:19):
phenomenon lucy enjoying.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
I like to explain to my students, my health psychology students,
that it's like you know, when you're half asleep and
half awake and you can still grab parts of the
dream and think about it, but then you know you're
waking up at the same time. That's that's what lucid
dreaming is, right.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
No dis disagree?
Speaker 1 (24:40):
What would you say it is? How would someone get
into a state of lucid dreaming?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Now?
Speaker 4 (24:46):
It is the biggest difference between common dreams and news
dreams is in your perception, because when you have consciousness
during rem sleep, everything perceives as reality. Because when people
talk about wuisy dreams or think about them, they just
(25:08):
imagine common dreams which sometimes very bury a senseless and
not vivid, and they think, Okay, what's the point of
having a control over it? But in reality these experiences
are so berevious that there often people don't see the
difference between reality and lucidreams. That's the reason for all
(25:32):
those supernatural stories about alien abductions, religious visions upon awakening
and so on and so on.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Because you think these people are actually experiencing a lucid dream.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Yeah, yeah, because but everything looks so real that they
cannot believe that it is a dream. They think that
everything happens for you. So it proves how vivid sensations
during this are you just you don't see the difference
between physical world and these worlds during the REM sleep.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Okay, when we come back, we have to go for
a break. I want to talk about how people can
learn to practice lucid dreaming and it's applications for mental health.
So stay with us. My guest is Michael Reduga, CEO
of REM Space and author of rem Psychology. He's conducted
research on lucid dreaming that has actually helped people lower
(26:31):
fears and anxiety and relieve symptoms of depression. We'll talk
more about this when we come back. You are listening
to the Dr Wendy wall Show on KFI AM six forty.
We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six forty.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Welcome back to the Dr Wendy Wall Show on you.
I Am six order Live Everywhere on the Heart Radio app.
My guest is Michael Raduga, CEO of REM Space and
author of rem Psychology. Our topic is lucid dreaming. Okay, Michael,
can anybody learn to experience lucid dreaming?
Speaker 4 (27:11):
Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I'm positive. And you know, it
seems that you could be a very lucid dreamer because
you see a lot of dreams and it's a first
sign of good chances to learn this phenomenon.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
So people like me who remember their dreams easily have
much easier time. Okay, so what do I do? Tell
me how to get into a lucid dream?
Speaker 4 (27:36):
So, first of all, you should understand that your intention
is the key factor here. It means that when you
fall asleep, you should think about some impressive, some exciting
goals which you would like to achieve in a lucid dream,
for example, to level somewhere or seeing somebody, for example
(27:58):
your reality partner or diseased relatives, or some fantasies, and
you think about it, you think about desire to achieve it,
and you fall asleep with this intention, and there's a
high chance that your intention will be transformed into consciousness
while dreaming or when you wake up. Every time, when
(28:21):
you wake up, during the first seconds up and awakening,
you may try to limitate, you may try to roll
out from your body without using your muscles. And the
reason is that actually it is much easier to induce
wecy dreams upon waking up and awakening because very often
(28:43):
when we wake wake up, during the first minutes, we
are still actually our brain is still asleep. So it
means that during the first few seconds of awakening you
can induce weacy dreams eagerly by just trying to limitate
getting up or rolling out of your body without using muscles.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
So you're using the word induce a lucid dream. So
let's say, you know, I put this intention as I'm
falling asleep, I tell myself over and over, this is
the thing I want to feel or experience or see.
And then as I'm waking up, I do something with
my thoughts. What do I do?
Speaker 4 (29:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Once again, when you wake up,
it's highly possible that your brain is still in this
ram sleep and it means that any of your actions
up on waken and they leads to reinducing of sleep,
(29:47):
but with consciousness. So you wake up and during the
first seconds, the first seconds, try to limitate. Lets literally,
I know that you.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Levitate, like literally right out of my body.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
Literally, let's literally try to live it. Taate or try
to roll out of Try try to roll out from
your body or try to get out without using muscles.
It sounds ridiculous, I know, but once again, when you
wake up during the first second, it's highly possible that
your brain is still asleep despite your consciousness.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Okay, so let's assume I've been able to roll out
of bed without moving a muscle, in other words, levitate,
and now do I look down at myself? What do
I What do I try to do with this intention
that I implanted the night before.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Then, for example, you try it five times, and out
of those five attempts, one or two times you will
actually livitate or roll out of your body, and you
will find yourself in a dream. It will look like
(30:57):
out of body experience, but in reality it's your dream world.
And starting from this positions, this moment, you can realize
any of your goals. So just make as many attempts
as possible, and a few of them will be effective.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Now, according to your research, this using this lucid dreaming
technique has been used to treat post traumatic stress disorder
and depression. How how does it work to treat fears
and sadness?
Speaker 4 (31:30):
Once again, it is all about vividness of this experience
because your brain and your subconsciousness perceives these dreams as reality,
meaning that, for example, if you have some psychological issues,
instead of thinking about them, instead of imagining some solutions,
(31:50):
you can relieve different situations. And when we talk about
application of rich dreaming, the highest number of scientific research
about this dreaming application is about psychology. It's depression, it's nightmares,
(32:11):
obvious complexes, post traumatic syndrome, and so on.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
You know, it's so interesting when I hear you explaining this,
So I have to tell you a story. When I
was like about twelve years old, we moved to a
neighborhood where there was a community swimming pool with a lifeguard.
You were not allowed to be there without a parent
unless you could in front of the lifeguard swim two
lengths of the pool back and forth. I was terrified.
(32:39):
I was so afraid of drowning. I'd had a couple
near drowning experiences as a child. I was terrified. It
wasn't about my ability to be strong enough for the stroke.
I was just so afraid to swim since a length.
And one night I went to sleep and I told myself,
I'm going to swim. I am going to swim. I
am going to swim those two lengths. And when I
(33:00):
woke up in the morning, I literally saw myself while
I was in bed swimming. Later in the day, I
kind of forgot about that dream. I went to the pool,
I said the lifeguard, I'm ready. I'm going to do
those two laps. I swam twenty laps in front of him,
so I know what you're talking about. It works.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
It's a very good example. So it could be not
only a daring advanced to each dreamer, but also a swimmer.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I'm not a great swimmer now, but I got to
go to the pool without my parents, and that's what mattered.
How do people, Michael Raduga, how do people find out
more about remspace and your book rem Psychology.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
You just can find it's on Amazon or in Psychology,
and it's a it's a it's the only book about
using each during use for solven different psychological issues.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Well, I can't wait to read it. The book is
rem psych Collegey CEO of MS BASS, Michael Riduga, thank
you so much for joining us today. Thank you, and
that brings the Doctor Wendy Wall Show to a close.
It's always my pleasure to be with you every Sunday
from seven to nine pm. If you missed any part
(34:16):
of the show, you can always find it later on
the iHeartRadio app. You've been listening to the Doctor Wendy
Walls Show on KFI AM six forty. You've been listening
to Doctor Wendy Waalsh. You can always hear us live
on KFI AM six forty from seven to nine pm
on Sunday and anytime on demand on the iHeartRadio app.
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