October 21, 2024 • 25 mins
Dr. Wendy is talking to Dr. Robi Ludwig about Liam Payne's mental health and how to help a loved one who may be struggling. It's all on KFIAM-640!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is doctor Wendy Walsh and you're listening to KFI
AM six forty, the Doctor Wendy wallsh Show on demand
on the iHeartRadio app I Am six forty. You have
doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the Doctor Wendy
Walsh Show. So I talk about attachment style a lot.
If you do not know what your romantic attachment style is.
(00:22):
This is not hocus pocus, it's not horoscope. It is
something that has been researched empirically around the world for years.
Your attachment style is something that is formed early in life,
often when you are pre verbal, and it is a
combination of your genetic predisposition wanting more closeness or not,
(00:44):
and also how you were parented by caregivers. In those
early years, you form something that psychologists call a model
for love. So it's an idea like this is normal
for me, right, is what you think in your head.
Then you go into your adult romantic life and you
find people who will match that feeling. So if you
(01:08):
know you had really attentive parents and you didn't have
a big gene for anxiety or whatever, and all went well,
you will go out and find somebody with a secure
attachment style, who can give and receive love comfortably, who
can be honest and intimate, et cetera. But if something
went a little bit awry, or you have a genetic
predisposition to anxiety or avoidance or whatever, you will go
(01:30):
back to the scene of the crime in your adult
romantic life and find people who will hurt you the
way you want to, right, I mean, it's but can
we change our attachment style? Of course we can. I did.
I had an anxious ambivalent attachment style. It was where
are you? Where are you? Come closer? Come closer, go away?
That's too closer. I'll do something terrible to make you
(01:54):
run away, because you can to. I have to have
you running. I have to feel abandoned. That's for me. Right,
had to do with my dad being in the navy.
Ho long story. You don't need to go through therapy
with me again. But anyway, So, attachment styles were discovered
by British psychologist John Bowlby back in the nineteen thirties,
forties and fifties, and they have been studied more than
(02:15):
anything in psychology. Is very quantifiable. In fact, neuroscientists now
put people inside MRI machines and look at their brains
and they can almost see attachment style. They show pictures
of people they love and people they don't love, and
they watch what areas of the brain light up. Interesting enough,
some people with an anxious or an avoidance style, when
(02:37):
they are shown pictures of people they deeply love, the
fear centers of their brains light up. I know, scary, right, so,
but one of the things that one of the questions
I get asked a lot. It's usually misworded because people say,
I'm dating a guy and he's such a narcissist, he
has no empathy, he doesn't even care about me, and
blah blah blah blah blah. And usually because narcises is
(03:00):
pretty rare, avoidant detachment style is pretty darn common. It's
basically somebody who's completely uncomfortable with emotional intimacy, and so
they compensate by being independent to a fault. And they
also don't trust that anyone else can meet their needs,
so they avoid getting too close to somebody right, so
(03:24):
they might pull away a lot, change the subject. If
you try to talk about something a little close or tender,
they might suddenly cancel plans they're big ghosters. They're hyper independent.
They don't want to have to dependent, you know. I
once heard a therapy teacher of mine say, so many
people have dependency issues, and I'm like, dependency issues because yeah,
(03:48):
they're afraid to depend on anothers. And I was like, oh,
you're supposed to depend on others, You're supposed to need
other people. That was like eye opening for me, and
I realized I was independent to a right. I didn't
ever want to be a burden to anybody. You know. Actually,
we're supposed to be leaning on each other's shoulders all
the time. People who are emotionally avoidant might be emotionally distant.
(04:12):
I used to call them emotionally unavailable. They also are
unable to empathize with their partners. And here's why. If
they feel what you're feeling, then they have a feeling
and that's scary for them. So in order for us
to feel somebody else's feelings, to have empathy and compassion
and be aware, we have to have a catalog of
(04:33):
feelings in our own body first and go, oh, that's
what that you're experiencing, because I get that too, right,
But somebody who's avoidant is so divorced from their own feelings,
they can't empathize with others. Obviously. They also lack language
to express their feelings. They're not aware of their feelings,
they don't have language for it, so their conversations might
be shallow. There might be a lot of sarcastic jokes
(04:54):
and just small talk. Keep it light, keep it surfacey right.
They were also prioritiz work over personal relationships because that'll
help them stay detached. They will end relationships if they
get too close, or they'll completely avoid intimate relationships altogether.
So what do you do if you're dating somebody who
(05:16):
I have just described. Now here's what's interesting. It is
the people with an anxious attachment style who are most
attracted to people with an avoidant attachment style. It's all unconscious,
but when two people meet, they do like an unconscious handshake.
Hey cool, you're gonna treat me this way like my
abandoning dad did. Great, You're gonna teach me. You treat
(05:36):
me like my smothering, critical mother did.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Great.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Okay, it's on what movies do you like? Let me
use eight D you like. They keep it on the surface,
but on some unconscious level they're exchanging information about how
things are going to be. So the very first thing
that somebody should do if you're in a relationship with
somebody who has an avoidant detachment style is learned to
contain yourself because this person is going to perceive that
(06:04):
you are smothering them. Psychologists like to call it engulfment fears. Right,
they're going to it's going to every little phone call
or text from you is going to feel like a
bombardment because when they were little, somebody did smother them
and it was all too much. So you got to
be patient and understanding. People with an avoidant attachment style
(06:27):
need space. They need time to feel comfortable with closeness,
so you don't push them too hard. You got to
respect their need for space, whether it's you know, their
alone time or activities with others. Now, you should not
suppress yourself and your feelings and be inauthentic just because
(06:47):
they can't handle it. So you do want to still
communicate openly and honestly. So I know it'll be hard
because you're afraid of scaring them off because they go
into their cave and run away anytime you get all
but you've got to find a way to do it
without being a pest right. Just express your feelings and
(07:07):
your needs clearly. You don't do it with anger, you
don't do it with pestering. You just want to be
receptive of their perspective. Also, maintain healthy relationships outside of
this relationship. I don't mean romantic relationships that are going
to threaten this relationship. But your friends and family don't
get isolated along with them, all right, And number one,
(07:30):
do not take their behavior personally, because here's what's happened.
Excuse me. The person with the avoidant attachment style is
running away and the person with the anxious attachment style
is chasing, and their esteem keeps getting lowered and lowered
because they keep thinking they don't like me enough, they
don't love me enough. So don't take it personal. But
(07:52):
don't be clinging, don't be demanding, and go to a
therapist because maybe you need to choose different. I'm telling
you I chose those avoidant guys for years, and once
I chose a lovey, dovey, secure person who's warm and
cuddly and can talk about feelings. I mean, he's a dude, right,
Dudes can only go so far, but he does pretty well.
(08:14):
For a guy. I'm so happy, so happy.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Hey.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
At the beginning of the show, when I talked about
the recent death of Liam Payne of One Direction, I
promised you a guest and when we come back, I
have a very important psychotherapist from New York City who
has been talking a lot about Liam. And if you
have somebody in your life who struggles from addiction, you're
(08:40):
not going to want to miss this interview when we
come back. You are listening to the Doctor Wendy Welsh
Show on KFI AM six forty we live everywhere on
the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six forty. Welcome back to the.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Doctor Wendy Welsh Show on KFI AM six forty, Live
everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. At the top of the show,
I mentioned the not mentioned. I clearly talked about the
disturbing news that One Direction singer Liam James Payne, at
the age of thirty one, passed away this week, falling
out of a third floor window in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
(09:24):
He has suffered from addiction. He's very open about talking
about that. We played you know, a voice of him
a video he'd made on YouTube a year ago. But
I wanted to bring in a mental health professional to
talk about some of the circumstances of the death that
we haven't mentioned so far. And also, if you are
(09:46):
somebody who and I think every family has somebody in
their life who either suffers from addiction or maybe having
a mental health crisis, what do you do right? What
can we do to help and support our family members?
So right now, I'd like to welcome doctor Robbie Ludwig.
She's a New York City based psychotherapist and author. You
probably see her all over media because she's a very
(10:09):
good explainer of the science. Hi, doctor Robbie, how are
you hello there?
Speaker 4 (10:16):
H this is.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Go ahead, Go ahead.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
I was going to say, you know, when I heard
about this story, I felt so incredibly sad for this man.
You know, regardless of the same and the success, very
often the public really thinks that same and success is
(10:41):
a way to cure some of these problems. And I
think every time we see a celebrity to come to
mental health issues or drug addiction issues, you know, we
see in fact that it's not the case and same
It can bring its own set of stressors that make
it very difficult for a person to cope.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
It is so true, and there are some a number
of things that our textbook as far as the circumstances
leading up to it. And I know that you deal
with all kinds of patients. Doctor Robbie Ludwig, who suffer
from addiction, so he's been supposedly in recovery for about
a year. He went away from social media for one
(11:27):
hundred days. In twenty twenty three, he came back on
YouTube and talked about cancel culture, talked about the shame
he felt, the awful things that people had said because
when he was using, apparently he did some things that
were embarrassing to him. But now he's sort of well.
But how long does it take for someone to be
(11:48):
fully stable after they've gone through rehab and what kinds
of things can trigger a relapse?
Speaker 4 (11:57):
Well, as they say for those who are in recovery,
it truly is one day at a time, and it
requires learning how to cope with those stressors that get
you to want to avoid the pain. Right, when we
really think about addiction, it's about numbing the pain. And
we're very good at avoiding pain, right, because who wants
(12:22):
to experience discomfort, but we're not really good at managing
the pain. And so very often people who are drinking
and drugging, or it can happen in many different forms,
they're trying to soothe themselves and it doesn't work, and
that's the problem. So a trigger can happen at any time.
(12:43):
You know, maybe nothing happened, but there was a void,
or I'm told that he was dealing with a lot
of stressors due to a previous relationship. This is a
person who had a hard time feeling good about him
elf and going into the music business or going into
(13:05):
the entertainment business when you're very young, it's tough. First
of all, it's a business, and businesses care about money.
They don't care about the person. And if you are
young and very talented and entering into a very competitive
business without anyone guiding you or helping you, or even
(13:26):
knowing how to help you, you are in vulnerable territory.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
You know. Let's talk about child development and the entertainment industry.
I read a quote from Miley Cyrus today. She said,
I hated when people criticize me for my wrecking ball stage.
How about when I was eleven and I was in
full hair and makeup and a wig every day by
middle aged men who are telling me how to act
and how to dress. Right, So her childhood was robbed
of her. Liam was fourteen years old when he was
(13:53):
cast in one direction. What happens to the developing brain
in those adolescent years with that kind of fame and
being thrown into that adult world and also a world
where it can be the land of no nos, nobody
says no to you.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
Well, I think there is that, and also it's very isolating.
So here you have a tremendous amount of success, you're
in an adult world where people are telling you what
you can do and what you can't do. There was
one story about Liam where in order for those around
them to protect the band because they were so famous
(14:29):
and they couldn't really leave the apartment, he felt isolated
into his hotel room and started drinking because there was
alcohol in the room, and I suppose that made him
feel better, and he had some social anxiety as well.
So I think that the problem is you're in an
adult world. You don't know what anything makes sense, you
(14:50):
don't have a full, fully developed ego, you don't know
who you are you don't know who you aren't and
then if there's like the vicissitudes of life or in business,
you know, it's hard to I guess, achieve that level
of highe right on the stage if things cool down
(15:11):
for a period of time. So these kids are very
vulnerable because they're kind of used and spit out and
they don't know who they are, and they had this
huge amount of success, and it's hard for them to
orient themselves to healthy living because they don't have the
coping skills to do that.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
And I teach developmental psychology, and adolescent is such an
important social time, social learning time, and they have to
hang out with their peers, but there are no peers
when you're this loner kid in this adult world. You're
not like running around playing basketball with the guys in
the neighborhood, and you're not growing up with your very
important social learning that needs to take place. Doctor Robbie,
(15:52):
can you stay with us when we come back. I
want to talk specifically. You know, let's give people some
news you can use some advice for if they have
a family member who's suffering with either addiction or has
mental health issues. We know, if it's a child, we
can definitely get them help, but what if they're over
the age of eighteen. Let's talk about how we can
(16:14):
support them. When we come back. You are listening to
the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty
my guest doctor Robbie Ludwig, New York City psychotherapist and author,
and we'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six FORTYFI AM.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Six forty Live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app My guest
doctor Robbie Ludwig, who is a psychotherapist based in New
York City as well as an author and a media commentator.
And I got to say, doctor Robbie, the advice that
you give in the media is so beneficial and so
helpful to so many people, because still there are many
(16:55):
people who have stigma when it comes to therapy or
mental health issues, or or they just don't know what
to do. So in light of now the light is
shining on sadly Liam Payne's death this week, and I'm
sure there are family members out there who are thinking
about their loved ones and worrying about them. First of all,
(17:18):
what can we do if we have an adult family
member who's suffering from addiction or mental health.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Issues, the first thing to do is connect. And sometimes
you have to love somebody more than they love themselves initially.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
And you have to speak to how you see them
when they get better, and that they're suffering from an illness.
There is no shame, but the goal is to get
treatment so that they're not in a self destructive cycle.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
I though, when friends have mental health issues, their behavior
look like just rudeness or immorality, right, And so how
you know we're trying to distinguish is this mental health?
Do we ostracize them? How do we get closer to
somebody who's being angry or mean to us?
Speaker 4 (18:15):
That's a really great question. I was thinking more in
terms of parents, right, because the parental role is to
take care. But if it is a friend, I want
this friend to think that maybe the irritability or the
anger or the abruptness could be depression, could be a
sign of addiction, could be a sign of anxiety. And
(18:36):
what you can say is listen, I want you to
feel better. I want you to do better. I think
that there are people who can help you. And here
are some ideas for you and if you feel as
a friend, you need to take a little space because
you have to consider your own mental health. That's okay,
But just point somebody in the right direction, you know,
(18:58):
give them the name or number of place that they
can call, even if it's a hotline number, even it's
a place where they can test, just something they have,
because you never know if that can save.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Them or not. And I think the other thing that's
important to remember, whether it's a friend or family member,
if they are suffering from addiction. I know you mentioned
this already. It's the the addictions like the secondary problem.
In other words, it's the problem that they're doing to
ease their pain. But once they get quote unquote clean
and sober, that's when the real mental health problems come up, right,
(19:32):
because that's the thing they've been self medicating.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
Yeah, that's exactly right. So usually, you know, these people
are struggling with a mood disorder or some issue. When
they stop drinking, that can be a dangerous time for
themselves because they don't know how to cope other than using.
So this is the time where you build up your
skills and you figure out how to address your issues
(19:57):
head on with somebody who can help you. We should
not be alone. I think this is the key advice
I have for people. If you don't need to go
through this alone, there's somebody out there who can help you,
because none of us gets to where we need to
be without supportive people or a supportive community.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
And would you suggest that if there's a family member
who can't get their loved one to go for therapy
or into addiction treatment, that the family member themselves can
go to therapy to help learn some good coping strategies.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
Yeah, I think that's a great idea. And I do
think parents or friends can also go to a support
group to say how do I handle somebody who is
not getting the treatment that they need, Because again, we
all have to figure out how to be available to
others without getting stucked in and pulled down. And if
(20:55):
we can do that, then we can really be a
better friend to those who are suffering and struggling.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Isn't that the tough one?
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Is that when you're the family member or friend who's
the caring person, you're a well of empathy and compassion,
and like you say, it's really easy to get sucked
into their world and before you know it you have,
like you know, complicated caregiving, you just can't stop. Whereas
learning to have our own boundaries and understanding, hey, I
(21:24):
can do this for you, but I'm not going to
do that for you, is right.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
I think it's important to set boundaries because we're also
role models for all of those who interact with us.
So if we can say I'm going to say yes
to this, but I can't say yes to your request
to go buy you alcohol or whatever the case may be,
because I don't think that's in your best interest. You're
showing people how to you know, be healthy, basically, because
(21:52):
setting boundaries about what you need to say no to
what you need to say yes to is really valuable
in terms of how we are in the world and
other people can learn from us because it's you know,
it's not necessarily something we're taught. We're often taught to
forget ourselves and just you know, to be a good
(22:12):
person consider the needs of other people. But if you're
considering the needs of other people in a way that
isn't good for them and isn't good for you, then
that's not the right approach.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
We call that being an enabler. I think in some ways, yeah,
or co dependent, right, Okay, So before we go, I
have one more question relating to the Liam Payne death.
There is a report that he was stranded in Buenasadas
for two extra days because he had trouble getting a
visa to come back into the US because apparently there
(22:45):
was one question on the visa application that basically says
have you ever abused alcohol or drugs? And supposedly if
you answer yes on that form, which legally he had to,
that they detain you until there's some kind of assessment.
And apparently he may have a pack assessment. But his
girlfriend of two years went on to Miami and basically
(23:05):
is you know, I'll see you in two days. Can
you talk about This is purely hypothetical, so we don't
really know what happened with this couple. How that feeling
of abandonment being left alone in a foreign country and
a hotel room for two days might have been a
trigger for him.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Sure, I mean, you know you could see where he
would want his girlfriend to be with him and say, listen,
we'll get through this together. We'll be together regardless of
what happens. And who knows why she did what she
did but listen, it sounds like this young man was
very vulnerable and that his identity was very shame based,
(23:42):
and that he didn't think well of himself. So anything
that smells of abandonment could have been a trigger for him.
And it sounds like he was already at a low
point because he was using. So I think the person
that re enters into addiction also is engaged in attacking
themselves for not being strong enough to be able to,
(24:04):
you know, abstain from what they need to abstain from.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
And you know, you mentioned this shame and we do
have to go. But I want to close by saying
that I really believe, I personally believe because I've dealt
with it myself, that the key to good mental health
is learning how to have a fairly high shame tolerance.
Because we're all humans. We make mistakes, we get embarrassed,
(24:30):
and if we use dysfunctional coping strategies instead of you know,
forgiving ourselves and loving ourselves anyway, And that's how I
think we all need.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
To do well, that's when we have true freedom.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
It's true true freedom, Doctor Robbie Ludwig. I'm going to
share something on air, doctor Robbie is a dear old
friend of mine and I was looking at the last
text we sent to each other, and you know, there
was a pandemic in between our friendship, and I noticed
that so much in the pandemic cut people off for
different reasons. We went inside to our tiny little quarantine
(25:03):
life of family and anyway, I'm glad to have you back.
Thank you for coming on the show, and I hope
to I hope to see you in person now that
we can.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
I would love that. Always love being with you, Wendy,
whether it's be a radio or if person, have a
great one.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Thank you my guest, doctor Robbie Ludwig, New York City
based psychotherapist and author. And you have been listening to
the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty.
I'm here for you every Sunday from seven to nine pm.
You've been listening to Doctor Wendy Waalsh. You can always
hear us live on KFI AM six forty from seven
(25:39):
to nine pm on Sunday and anytime on demand on
the iHeartRadio app.
This is doctor Wendy Walsh and you're listening to KFI
AM six forty, the Doctor Wendy wallsh Show on demand
on the iHeartRadio app I Am six forty. You have
doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the Doctor Wendy
Walsh Show. So I talk about attachment style a lot.
If you do not know what your romantic attachment style is.
(00:22):
This is not hocus pocus, it's not horoscope. It is
something that has been researched empirically around the world for years.
Your attachment style is something that is formed early in life,
often when you are pre verbal, and it is a
combination of your genetic predisposition wanting more closeness or not,
(00:44):
and also how you were parented by caregivers. In those
early years, you form something that psychologists call a model
for love. So it's an idea like this is normal
for me, right, is what you think in your head.
Then you go into your adult romantic life and you
find people who will match that feeling. So if you
(01:08):
know you had really attentive parents and you didn't have
a big gene for anxiety or whatever, and all went well,
you will go out and find somebody with a secure
attachment style, who can give and receive love comfortably, who
can be honest and intimate, et cetera. But if something
went a little bit awry, or you have a genetic
predisposition to anxiety or avoidance or whatever, you will go
(01:30):
back to the scene of the crime in your adult
romantic life and find people who will hurt you the
way you want to, right, I mean, it's but can
we change our attachment style? Of course we can. I did.
I had an anxious ambivalent attachment style. It was where
are you? Where are you? Come closer? Come closer, go away?
That's too closer. I'll do something terrible to make you
(01:54):
run away, because you can to. I have to have
you running. I have to feel abandoned. That's for me. Right,
had to do with my dad being in the navy.
Ho long story. You don't need to go through therapy
with me again. But anyway, So, attachment styles were discovered
by British psychologist John Bowlby back in the nineteen thirties,
forties and fifties, and they have been studied more than
(02:15):
anything in psychology. Is very quantifiable. In fact, neuroscientists now
put people inside MRI machines and look at their brains
and they can almost see attachment style. They show pictures
of people they love and people they don't love, and
they watch what areas of the brain light up. Interesting enough,
some people with an anxious or an avoidance style, when
(02:37):
they are shown pictures of people they deeply love, the
fear centers of their brains light up. I know, scary, right, so,
but one of the things that one of the questions
I get asked a lot. It's usually misworded because people say,
I'm dating a guy and he's such a narcissist, he
has no empathy, he doesn't even care about me, and
blah blah blah blah blah. And usually because narcises is
(03:00):
pretty rare, avoidant detachment style is pretty darn common. It's
basically somebody who's completely uncomfortable with emotional intimacy, and so
they compensate by being independent to a fault. And they
also don't trust that anyone else can meet their needs,
so they avoid getting too close to somebody right, so
(03:24):
they might pull away a lot, change the subject. If
you try to talk about something a little close or tender,
they might suddenly cancel plans they're big ghosters. They're hyper independent.
They don't want to have to dependent, you know. I
once heard a therapy teacher of mine say, so many
people have dependency issues, and I'm like, dependency issues because yeah,
(03:48):
they're afraid to depend on anothers. And I was like, oh,
you're supposed to depend on others, You're supposed to need
other people. That was like eye opening for me, and
I realized I was independent to a right. I didn't
ever want to be a burden to anybody. You know. Actually,
we're supposed to be leaning on each other's shoulders all
the time. People who are emotionally avoidant might be emotionally distant.
(04:12):
I used to call them emotionally unavailable. They also are
unable to empathize with their partners. And here's why. If
they feel what you're feeling, then they have a feeling
and that's scary for them. So in order for us
to feel somebody else's feelings, to have empathy and compassion
and be aware, we have to have a catalog of
(04:33):
feelings in our own body first and go, oh, that's
what that you're experiencing, because I get that too, right,
But somebody who's avoidant is so divorced from their own feelings,
they can't empathize with others. Obviously. They also lack language
to express their feelings. They're not aware of their feelings,
they don't have language for it, so their conversations might
be shallow. There might be a lot of sarcastic jokes
(04:54):
and just small talk. Keep it light, keep it surfacey right.
They were also prioritiz work over personal relationships because that'll
help them stay detached. They will end relationships if they
get too close, or they'll completely avoid intimate relationships altogether.
So what do you do if you're dating somebody who
(05:16):
I have just described. Now here's what's interesting. It is
the people with an anxious attachment style who are most
attracted to people with an avoidant attachment style. It's all unconscious,
but when two people meet, they do like an unconscious handshake.
Hey cool, you're gonna treat me this way like my
abandoning dad did. Great, You're gonna teach me. You treat
(05:36):
me like my smothering, critical mother did.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Great.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Okay, it's on what movies do you like? Let me
use eight D you like. They keep it on the surface,
but on some unconscious level they're exchanging information about how
things are going to be. So the very first thing
that somebody should do if you're in a relationship with
somebody who has an avoidant detachment style is learned to
contain yourself because this person is going to perceive that
(06:04):
you are smothering them. Psychologists like to call it engulfment fears. Right,
they're going to it's going to every little phone call
or text from you is going to feel like a
bombardment because when they were little, somebody did smother them
and it was all too much. So you got to
be patient and understanding. People with an avoidant attachment style
(06:27):
need space. They need time to feel comfortable with closeness,
so you don't push them too hard. You got to
respect their need for space, whether it's you know, their
alone time or activities with others. Now, you should not
suppress yourself and your feelings and be inauthentic just because
(06:47):
they can't handle it. So you do want to still
communicate openly and honestly. So I know it'll be hard
because you're afraid of scaring them off because they go
into their cave and run away anytime you get all
but you've got to find a way to do it
without being a pest right. Just express your feelings and
(07:07):
your needs clearly. You don't do it with anger, you
don't do it with pestering. You just want to be
receptive of their perspective. Also, maintain healthy relationships outside of
this relationship. I don't mean romantic relationships that are going
to threaten this relationship. But your friends and family don't
get isolated along with them, all right, And number one,
(07:30):
do not take their behavior personally, because here's what's happened.
Excuse me. The person with the avoidant attachment style is
running away and the person with the anxious attachment style
is chasing, and their esteem keeps getting lowered and lowered
because they keep thinking they don't like me enough, they
don't love me enough. So don't take it personal. But
(07:52):
don't be clinging, don't be demanding, and go to a
therapist because maybe you need to choose different. I'm telling
you I chose those avoidant guys for years, and once
I chose a lovey, dovey, secure person who's warm and
cuddly and can talk about feelings. I mean, he's a dude, right,
Dudes can only go so far, but he does pretty well.
(08:14):
For a guy. I'm so happy, so happy.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Hey.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
At the beginning of the show, when I talked about
the recent death of Liam Payne of One Direction, I
promised you a guest and when we come back, I
have a very important psychotherapist from New York City who
has been talking a lot about Liam. And if you
have somebody in your life who struggles from addiction, you're
(08:40):
not going to want to miss this interview when we
come back. You are listening to the Doctor Wendy Welsh
Show on KFI AM six forty we live everywhere on
the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six forty. Welcome back to the.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Doctor Wendy Welsh Show on KFI AM six forty, Live
everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. At the top of the show,
I mentioned the not mentioned. I clearly talked about the
disturbing news that One Direction singer Liam James Payne, at
the age of thirty one, passed away this week, falling
out of a third floor window in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
(09:24):
He has suffered from addiction. He's very open about talking
about that. We played you know, a voice of him
a video he'd made on YouTube a year ago. But
I wanted to bring in a mental health professional to
talk about some of the circumstances of the death that
we haven't mentioned so far. And also, if you are
(09:46):
somebody who and I think every family has somebody in
their life who either suffers from addiction or maybe having
a mental health crisis, what do you do right? What
can we do to help and support our family members?
So right now, I'd like to welcome doctor Robbie Ludwig.
She's a New York City based psychotherapist and author. You
probably see her all over media because she's a very
(10:09):
good explainer of the science. Hi, doctor Robbie, how are
you hello there?
Speaker 4 (10:16):
H this is.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Go ahead, Go ahead.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
I was going to say, you know, when I heard
about this story, I felt so incredibly sad for this man.
You know, regardless of the same and the success, very
often the public really thinks that same and success is
(10:41):
a way to cure some of these problems. And I
think every time we see a celebrity to come to
mental health issues or drug addiction issues, you know, we
see in fact that it's not the case and same
It can bring its own set of stressors that make
it very difficult for a person to cope.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
It is so true, and there are some a number
of things that our textbook as far as the circumstances
leading up to it. And I know that you deal
with all kinds of patients. Doctor Robbie Ludwig, who suffer
from addiction, so he's been supposedly in recovery for about
a year. He went away from social media for one
(11:27):
hundred days. In twenty twenty three, he came back on
YouTube and talked about cancel culture, talked about the shame
he felt, the awful things that people had said because
when he was using, apparently he did some things that
were embarrassing to him. But now he's sort of well.
But how long does it take for someone to be
(11:48):
fully stable after they've gone through rehab and what kinds
of things can trigger a relapse?
Speaker 4 (11:57):
Well, as they say for those who are in recovery,
it truly is one day at a time, and it
requires learning how to cope with those stressors that get
you to want to avoid the pain. Right, when we
really think about addiction, it's about numbing the pain. And
we're very good at avoiding pain, right, because who wants
(12:22):
to experience discomfort, but we're not really good at managing
the pain. And so very often people who are drinking
and drugging, or it can happen in many different forms,
they're trying to soothe themselves and it doesn't work, and
that's the problem. So a trigger can happen at any time.
(12:43):
You know, maybe nothing happened, but there was a void,
or I'm told that he was dealing with a lot
of stressors due to a previous relationship. This is a
person who had a hard time feeling good about him
elf and going into the music business or going into
(13:05):
the entertainment business when you're very young, it's tough. First
of all, it's a business, and businesses care about money.
They don't care about the person. And if you are
young and very talented and entering into a very competitive
business without anyone guiding you or helping you, or even
(13:26):
knowing how to help you, you are in vulnerable territory.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
You know. Let's talk about child development and the entertainment industry.
I read a quote from Miley Cyrus today. She said,
I hated when people criticize me for my wrecking ball stage.
How about when I was eleven and I was in
full hair and makeup and a wig every day by
middle aged men who are telling me how to act
and how to dress. Right, So her childhood was robbed
of her. Liam was fourteen years old when he was
(13:53):
cast in one direction. What happens to the developing brain
in those adolescent years with that kind of fame and
being thrown into that adult world and also a world
where it can be the land of no nos, nobody
says no to you.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
Well, I think there is that, and also it's very isolating.
So here you have a tremendous amount of success, you're
in an adult world where people are telling you what
you can do and what you can't do. There was
one story about Liam where in order for those around
them to protect the band because they were so famous
(14:29):
and they couldn't really leave the apartment, he felt isolated
into his hotel room and started drinking because there was
alcohol in the room, and I suppose that made him
feel better, and he had some social anxiety as well.
So I think that the problem is you're in an
adult world. You don't know what anything makes sense, you
(14:50):
don't have a full, fully developed ego, you don't know
who you are you don't know who you aren't and
then if there's like the vicissitudes of life or in business,
you know, it's hard to I guess, achieve that level
of highe right on the stage if things cool down
(15:11):
for a period of time. So these kids are very
vulnerable because they're kind of used and spit out and
they don't know who they are, and they had this
huge amount of success, and it's hard for them to
orient themselves to healthy living because they don't have the
coping skills to do that.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
And I teach developmental psychology, and adolescent is such an
important social time, social learning time, and they have to
hang out with their peers, but there are no peers
when you're this loner kid in this adult world. You're
not like running around playing basketball with the guys in
the neighborhood, and you're not growing up with your very
important social learning that needs to take place. Doctor Robbie,
(15:52):
can you stay with us when we come back. I
want to talk specifically. You know, let's give people some
news you can use some advice for if they have
a family member who's suffering with either addiction or has
mental health issues. We know, if it's a child, we
can definitely get them help, but what if they're over
the age of eighteen. Let's talk about how we can
(16:14):
support them. When we come back. You are listening to
the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty
my guest doctor Robbie Ludwig, New York City psychotherapist and author,
and we'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six FORTYFI AM.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Six forty Live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app My guest
doctor Robbie Ludwig, who is a psychotherapist based in New
York City as well as an author and a media commentator.
And I got to say, doctor Robbie, the advice that
you give in the media is so beneficial and so
helpful to so many people, because still there are many
(16:55):
people who have stigma when it comes to therapy or
mental health issues, or or they just don't know what
to do. So in light of now the light is
shining on sadly Liam Payne's death this week, and I'm
sure there are family members out there who are thinking
about their loved ones and worrying about them. First of all,
(17:18):
what can we do if we have an adult family
member who's suffering from addiction or mental health.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Issues, the first thing to do is connect. And sometimes
you have to love somebody more than they love themselves initially.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
And you have to speak to how you see them
when they get better, and that they're suffering from an illness.
There is no shame, but the goal is to get
treatment so that they're not in a self destructive cycle.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
I though, when friends have mental health issues, their behavior
look like just rudeness or immorality, right, And so how
you know we're trying to distinguish is this mental health?
Do we ostracize them? How do we get closer to
somebody who's being angry or mean to us?
Speaker 4 (18:15):
That's a really great question. I was thinking more in
terms of parents, right, because the parental role is to
take care. But if it is a friend, I want
this friend to think that maybe the irritability or the
anger or the abruptness could be depression, could be a
sign of addiction, could be a sign of anxiety. And
(18:36):
what you can say is listen, I want you to
feel better. I want you to do better. I think
that there are people who can help you. And here
are some ideas for you and if you feel as
a friend, you need to take a little space because
you have to consider your own mental health. That's okay,
But just point somebody in the right direction, you know,
(18:58):
give them the name or number of place that they
can call, even if it's a hotline number, even it's
a place where they can test, just something they have,
because you never know if that can save.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Them or not. And I think the other thing that's
important to remember, whether it's a friend or family member,
if they are suffering from addiction. I know you mentioned
this already. It's the the addictions like the secondary problem.
In other words, it's the problem that they're doing to
ease their pain. But once they get quote unquote clean
and sober, that's when the real mental health problems come up, right,
(19:32):
because that's the thing they've been self medicating.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
Yeah, that's exactly right. So usually, you know, these people
are struggling with a mood disorder or some issue. When
they stop drinking, that can be a dangerous time for
themselves because they don't know how to cope other than using.
So this is the time where you build up your
skills and you figure out how to address your issues
(19:57):
head on with somebody who can help you. We should
not be alone. I think this is the key advice
I have for people. If you don't need to go
through this alone, there's somebody out there who can help you,
because none of us gets to where we need to
be without supportive people or a supportive community.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
And would you suggest that if there's a family member
who can't get their loved one to go for therapy
or into addiction treatment, that the family member themselves can
go to therapy to help learn some good coping strategies.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
Yeah, I think that's a great idea. And I do
think parents or friends can also go to a support
group to say how do I handle somebody who is
not getting the treatment that they need, Because again, we
all have to figure out how to be available to
others without getting stucked in and pulled down. And if
(20:55):
we can do that, then we can really be a
better friend to those who are suffering and struggling.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Isn't that the tough one?
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Is that when you're the family member or friend who's
the caring person, you're a well of empathy and compassion,
and like you say, it's really easy to get sucked
into their world and before you know it you have,
like you know, complicated caregiving, you just can't stop. Whereas
learning to have our own boundaries and understanding, hey, I
(21:24):
can do this for you, but I'm not going to
do that for you, is right.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
I think it's important to set boundaries because we're also
role models for all of those who interact with us.
So if we can say I'm going to say yes
to this, but I can't say yes to your request
to go buy you alcohol or whatever the case may be,
because I don't think that's in your best interest. You're
showing people how to you know, be healthy, basically, because
(21:52):
setting boundaries about what you need to say no to
what you need to say yes to is really valuable
in terms of how we are in the world and
other people can learn from us because it's you know,
it's not necessarily something we're taught. We're often taught to
forget ourselves and just you know, to be a good
(22:12):
person consider the needs of other people. But if you're
considering the needs of other people in a way that
isn't good for them and isn't good for you, then
that's not the right approach.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
We call that being an enabler. I think in some ways, yeah,
or co dependent, right, Okay, So before we go, I
have one more question relating to the Liam Payne death.
There is a report that he was stranded in Buenasadas
for two extra days because he had trouble getting a
visa to come back into the US because apparently there
(22:45):
was one question on the visa application that basically says
have you ever abused alcohol or drugs? And supposedly if
you answer yes on that form, which legally he had to,
that they detain you until there's some kind of assessment.
And apparently he may have a pack assessment. But his
girlfriend of two years went on to Miami and basically
(23:05):
is you know, I'll see you in two days. Can
you talk about This is purely hypothetical, so we don't
really know what happened with this couple. How that feeling
of abandonment being left alone in a foreign country and
a hotel room for two days might have been a
trigger for him.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Sure, I mean, you know you could see where he
would want his girlfriend to be with him and say, listen,
we'll get through this together. We'll be together regardless of
what happens. And who knows why she did what she
did but listen, it sounds like this young man was
very vulnerable and that his identity was very shame based,
(23:42):
and that he didn't think well of himself. So anything
that smells of abandonment could have been a trigger for him.
And it sounds like he was already at a low
point because he was using. So I think the person
that re enters into addiction also is engaged in attacking
themselves for not being strong enough to be able to,
(24:04):
you know, abstain from what they need to abstain from.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
And you know, you mentioned this shame and we do
have to go. But I want to close by saying
that I really believe, I personally believe because I've dealt
with it myself, that the key to good mental health
is learning how to have a fairly high shame tolerance.
Because we're all humans. We make mistakes, we get embarrassed,
(24:30):
and if we use dysfunctional coping strategies instead of you know,
forgiving ourselves and loving ourselves anyway, And that's how I
think we all need.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
To do well, that's when we have true freedom.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
It's true true freedom, Doctor Robbie Ludwig. I'm going to
share something on air, doctor Robbie is a dear old
friend of mine and I was looking at the last
text we sent to each other, and you know, there
was a pandemic in between our friendship, and I noticed
that so much in the pandemic cut people off for
different reasons. We went inside to our tiny little quarantine
(25:03):
life of family and anyway, I'm glad to have you back.
Thank you for coming on the show, and I hope
to I hope to see you in person now that
we can.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
I would love that. Always love being with you, Wendy,
whether it's be a radio or if person, have a
great one.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Thank you my guest, doctor Robbie Ludwig, New York City
based psychotherapist and author. And you have been listening to
the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty.
I'm here for you every Sunday from seven to nine pm.
You've been listening to Doctor Wendy Waalsh. You can always
hear us live on KFI AM six forty from seven
(25:39):
to nine pm on Sunday and anytime on demand on
the iHeartRadio app.
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