February 17, 2025 • 29 mins
Is God Good from things done in the Bible
The Sabbath
The Church has imperfect people
The Bible written years after Jesus
The Sabbath
The Church has imperfect people
The Bible written years after Jesus
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to KFI A M six forty on demand. Brett,
Welcome to the Jesus Christ Show.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hello Jesus, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I am well, Brett? How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (00:12):
I'm pretty good?
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Okay, good here, and you're very chipper for this time
of day.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, I work nice.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Oh excellent. So you're coming, you're coming down, ending your day?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Coming down? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
How can I help you?
Speaker 4 (00:24):
All right?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Well, I have a would you consider the God of
the Bible good?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Well? Yes, well I'm kind of partial to that. I
assume you would have thought that I'd answer that it
would be weird for this show. Yes.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
The question is when an atheist will point to something
in the Bible and say that that is a sign
of God's immorality, that is a sign of God being evil. Yes,
then they will say that you simply cannot judge God.
But by saying that God is good, you are also
making a judgment absolutely.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Judging absolutely, and that would be that would be a
fallacy for the Christian to put themselves in that kind
of argumentation. It's it's it's not the proper way to
look at it.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Then, how then, how can you tell that God is good?
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Okay? Well, there's a couple of things going on here. First, uh,
When whenever you are in a situation like this, defining
your terms is important. So defining what judgment is is
important because there is a difference between judgment. You're the
same way, Brett, You're exactly the same way. If I
came up to you and I said I don't like
the way you did X, Y and Z, you'd say, oh,
(01:32):
you know what, I don't want you to judge me.
But if I came up to you and said, wow,
that was really great that what you did, Brett, you
wouldn't go, I don't want you to judge me. So
it's it's it's important to understand what judgment means in
that context. When scripture talks about uh, well, scripture, when
it talks about thou shalt not judge, lest ye be judged,
(01:52):
it's talking about thinking that you're better than somebody, or
being condescending in a way that you aren't looking or
taking account the things that you do in life. You're
merely looking outwardly constantly at what everyone else does. It's
not about justice. Of course, you're to judge. Christians should judge,
everyone should judge.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I'm not saying that judgment is wrong. I'm saying, if
you're telling the atheists that they cannot judge judge God bad,
then you can also not call him good.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yes, which brings me to my second point. So that
was just about defining the term about judgment what judgment is. Secondly,
there's a qualifier that's missing in that statement from the
Christian which is why I have a problem with it,
and that is that there are certain things that you
can't judge God above God. Going back to my definition
about being outside of the judgment, So if you're constantly
(02:39):
judging others and not looking at yourself, there's a problem,
a problem. No, I'm saying with let's let's take it.
It's not a personal thing. That we're looking at the
greater theological or philosophical ramifications of that statement. So in
this case, somebody is saying you can't judge God is
(03:00):
not actually actually correct. That's that's not correct. You can't
oversee judgment upon God. Man is not high enough.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
You can't actually enforce.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
That judgment exactly. So really what you're doing is you
can make observations about God and you can see those
things in God, but you can't judge God's decisions. So
that's what the statement needs. It needs more qualifiers to
understand what kind of judgment you're doing. You can't sit
in judgment of God. So for God to.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Actually exist, yes, then you could not. He would have
all the powers, so you could not actually say. You
could say that he was wrong all you wanted, but
it wouldn't matter.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Exactly because God, God, by definition, is a transcendent, So if.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It trans in that respect, doesn't, well, that's.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
It's you know, a little anthropomorphic on your part if
you want to apply those human attributes and you want
to say, well, that seems this way to you, but
really you're still have to pull it down to a
human element. A mob boss is just a human who
thinks he's better than a human. God is better than
a human, so over you.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
You cannot. They are just doing whatever they feel like. Yeah,
but there's no choice in the matter.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
No, but there's a righteousness to it. A mob boss
has their own wants. Well, because God is justice. There's
a difference. Now you're trying to parse the fact that
there are human beings that abuse that.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
God is justice. I'm sorry, what makes you think that
God is justice?
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Well, the show is that Jesus Christ show we'd come
from the generic Judeo Christian priests. You got to give
me that one, a little bit, pardon, you got to
give me that one. I mean, the show pretty much
lays it out in the in the name there, it's
right there for everyone to see. I'm going to come from.
I'm going to tell you that there are things not
(04:47):
only in scripture, but outside of scripture that point to
the justice and the love of God. As a matter
of fact, Brett, you telling me that there are things
that are good or bad in this world comes from where?
Why do you judge what's good or bad? Why do
you why do you say something's good or something's bad
in life?
Speaker 5 (05:03):
For you?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Things that are harmful and things that you're beneficial.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
No no, no, no, no, no no, that's that's hedonism. You
don't believe that because they're who no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Not he not hedonism. If I slam my hand, this
idea that we can only judge things wrong because there's
some kind of ultimate standard we're judging against is silly. Okay,
you tell me my hand in a car door that hurts, okay,
But I'm not seeing some kind of ultimate standard of
non hurt.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Okay, So everything that hurts is bad.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Depending on how depending on how it goes.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Is everything is everything that causes pain bad? Is everything
that causes pleasure good? Okay? So that's a that's a
lousy standard. Wouldn't you say?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
I did not say that, sir?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Okay? So is pleasure good?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Pleasure can be good, It can be good.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
So when does pleasure become So when does pleasure become bad?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
When it becomes harmful to you?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
And what is harm there?
Speaker 2 (06:02):
If you just sit there having pleasure all day long?
And what is harm if you just sit there with
just pleasure all day long and start to ignore things
that you need, start to ignore things that are more
beneficial towards you?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Says who says who?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Well says reality says reality?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
And what context says who? What do you? You're you're
using circular reasoning as you go back and say, well,
if it's pleasure but only pleasure sometimes.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Sir, if you sit there shooting up on drugs all
day long, you will feel pleasure, but at the same
time you're doing psysical damage to your body.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
What if you what if you shoot up? What if
you shoot up only partial during the day, so maybe
six hours.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
And you're still doing damage to your body. That's sort
of your decision.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
What kind of damage. Now, if you cut open a person,
does that cause damage to them?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Technically yes, it depends on what your what your point is.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
That's That's what I'm saying, is that you keep adding
a qualifier to it. So there is no standard for
what is good or bad. You have to keep judging
whether it's good or bad based on what you think
is good or bad, or pleasurable or harmful. There is
no universal what is pleasurable or harmful unless you're the
one that's You kind of keep saying, well, I deem
(07:20):
this pleasurable, I deem this harmful. But who does that society?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
We get together into society ourselves, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
It's so it's the society that decides what's good and bad.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Societies generally do yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Are there societies that do things that are bad?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Okay? Then who judges that society.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
The people in that society.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
No, because they're the ones doing it bad. They didn't,
you know, not see Germany didn't self regulate, okay, and
that so that society, that society did not self regulate
who regulated.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Them, Your society of the world.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
I see. So as long as the world sees it
as okay, then it's okay.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I cannot give you an ultimate stand.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
No you can't. That's the point, Brett. That's what I
want you to say. You're obviously not stupid, so I
want you to see that all you do is push
it upon another chain link, another chain link, because this
infinite regression of maybe this, maybe that, and maybe this,
and that's not how it works. Eventually, you have to
(08:29):
get to a place outside of that society to make
that judgment. A can in a standard measuring rod, because
you can't just say an inch is an inch as
an inch. Somebody has to agree on that, and it
has to be outside of the inch. The measurement tool
can't be the ultimate measuring tool because it's temporal. It's
(08:53):
not it's not infinite, and that's what you're looking for.
That's what you need. That is what defines it. And
we could have been here all day, Brett, and you
would have had to come up with one more reason.
Whereas the theist doesn't. It stops at God, God alone,
(09:15):
the transcendent lawgiver, who is always in the law Wannie,
Welcome to the Jesus Christ Show.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
Good morning, Jesus.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
I'll have a question.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
I have a question for you.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (09:32):
I read a book called The Appointment with You Always,
and it was talking about the established and it's meant
that the established the establish originally was established on the
moon cycles, and that the reason that it was changed
was because it commercially.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Applies, because of because of what commercial it.
Speaker 5 (09:55):
Applies, that the merchant wanted to establish a certain.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Day like this say, oh, gotcha, Okay, Well, no, that's false.
Now your phone's a little muddy there, so I'm gonna
put you on hold because it's kind of hard to understand,
and I'm guessing that the listeners having a hard time understanding.
So essentially, you're asking about the Sabbath and that the
Sabbath was changed. No, the Sabbath was established in Genesis,
(10:21):
chapter two, verse two, and it says by the seventh
day God completed his work with which his hands had done,
and he rested on the seventh day from all of
his work which he had done. There's the first sign
of the Sabbath. Sabbath is the Hebrew word shabbat, by
(10:41):
the word for Sabbath and the Greek word sabatan. They
both mean to rest from labor. That's what it means.
So that's where it comes from. And you find it
also in the Ten Commandments. You see it in Exodus
twenty eight through. But a lot of people get the
(11:04):
too confused between the Sabbath, which is Saturday, and they
get that confused with the Christian day of rest after
the Resurrection, which is Sunday. Okay, it's it's referred to
as the Lord's Day. So the Sabbath is still on Saturday.
(11:25):
The Lord's Day is on Sunday. The majority of Christians
practice their faith and rest and go to church and
all that on Sunday, the Lord's Day, not Sabbath. Now
we're there there changes in calendars and and things like
that throughout the years. Yes, but the Sabbath is still
considered the last day of the week. It's not a
(11:47):
particular uh, it's not a particular day per se. It's
the last day of the week. And that's you know,
that's important because people get caught up in in the
Sabbath and start almost worshiping it, Like is this if
the Sabbath is the thing to worship and if you
remember when I was asked about the Sabbath in scripture,
I said that Sabbath was made for man, not man
(12:08):
for the Sabbath. And also look up Colossians chapter two,
verse sixteen. Therefore, let no one act as your judge
in regard to the food or drink, or in respect
to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.
Meaning don't be judged by those that say that you
have to worship this way, or you have to worship
(12:30):
on that day, or any of those things. The important
part of the Sabbath is that you stop that there's
one day that you stop, you rest, you communion with God.
You should be doing that throughout the week as well,
but have that specific time to set that apart, to
do that and make it important in your life, Lonnie,
(12:51):
that's the key. That is what's most important. Don't get
lost in just the strict tradition of things, because sometimes
traditions start becoming idols. People start worshiping those traditions rather
than the word of God. And really it's about you
taking that time. You having the time of rest, you
having time with God, and stopping from working. That's the
(13:15):
most important thing. To have that time away from work,
that downtime. Vincent, Welcome to the Jesus Christ Show.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Oho, Jesus Hi Hi. My question is in regard to
the whole conference of God. Okay, my banks are Christian pastors,
and so I've been raised with the Christian religion my
whole life. I don't necessarily agree with most applications to it.
I think a lot of the teaching that you brought
(13:51):
I agree with, but when it comes to the institution
of the church itself, I have a lot of disagreements
with their approach.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
The question that I have regarding God is if God
is you see of love and forgiveness and understanding and compassion. A,
why is that not reflected in the Christian religion? And
b why why would there be such things as how
(14:20):
or even sins? For that matter? If God was you
know of forgiveness and understanding.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Okay, Well you asked kind of four questions in there,
so let's get to as many of them as we can,
and keep in mind that it's very difficult. As you're
a PK and PK's pastors. Kids often have a difficult
time because reconciling between seeing their parents as humans, and
then the words that I have to be taught as well.
(14:51):
If you imagine Vincent, the it's been said by a
chief of police that the judicial system of the United
s States is perfect save for one problem, and that
is that it has to be run by human beings.
That is exactly the same problem with the church. You're
dealing with perfection, but yet those that are preaching or
(15:12):
teaching it are imperfect. However, your concept or your definition
is what's at the root of your concern. It's how
you define these things is what you have a problem with.
You have love, forgiveness, Hell, it's the way you define
them that causes the problem, not having them in themselves,
(15:32):
because forgiveness is different than reconciliation, and love isn't just
ignoring the stupid things people do and giving them a hug,
which is what most people think when they think of love.
They go, oh, love is just kind of ignoring all
the bad stuff and just being nice to them. That's
not love at all. And so really, your understanding of
(15:55):
those things plays a big part. Hell, for instance, Vincent,
what what kind of music do you hate that you
just can't stand?
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I'll the country Western?
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Okay, you know, What the funny thing is is that
I asked this question on occasion, and that's one of
the top two. So let's say country western. You don't
like country western, so you don't want to listen to
it for a half hour, do you? You don't want
to listen to it for a full day?
Speaker 4 (16:26):
Do you right?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
You wouldn't want to be forced to listen to it
for a year, would you right? Okay, So if I
forced you to listen to country music for an eternity,
that would be hell because you don't want to it.
You don't want it, you want no part of it,
and therefore, why would you want to experience it forever? Heaven?
(16:50):
All heaven is and I say all because some people
like to whittle it down as if this is a negative.
All heaven is communion and worship eternally with the Father.
If you don't want to love Him and serve him
for seventy eighty ninety measly years on earth, God will
(17:12):
not force you to do that for eternity. So he
allows you and send you to allows you to make
a choice here on earth to not be with Him
for eternity, and it's called hell to not be with
But eternity from God. And the thing that people don't
(17:36):
get wrap their heads around, Vincent, is that you think
you don't want God. And this isn't you, particularly the
Greater You think they don't want God. Yet they don't
know that God even works in their life even if
they reject Him. On Earth, God is still sustaining this planet.
They so they are getting all the benefits of God
(17:57):
even if they don't know it, or at least part
of those benefits, and in hell they won't have any
of them. It's like the petulant child going, you know what,
I hate my parents. I just want to move, and
then realizing now they're on the streets, there's no roof
over their head, there's no one guiding them, there's no
one giving them love. And now they understand the power
(18:18):
of it, but can't go back because the decision is
so respected by God that humans have the ability to
make that decision, that it is a final and eternal
decision at the point of death. So that's what hell
is is somebody truly experiencing for eternity the eternal decision
(18:38):
they made. That's it. It's a respect factor. It's not
an unloving or an unjust God. It's a very loving
and very just God who says I respect you, I
love you. Love can only exist by mutual respect. Love
can only exist if I give you a choice not
to love, because forced love is rape. Forcing somebody to
(19:02):
give themselves to you, to physically give themselves to you,
to be a part of your life, to give what
you want of a situation is wrong and it's evil,
and God can't and won't do it. He allows humans
to make the conscious, educated choice to reject him for
(19:26):
all of eternity. But it's like rejecting water. When you're
in a desert, you're going to know how much you
need water. And all these people that you come across
in life that go, oh, I don't drink water because
I hate the taste, Well, your body needs it. And
it's not till you really understand that you're getting water
(19:48):
in jews, or you're getting water even in SODA's, you're
getting water little bits here and there, that your body
stays hydrated, that you're still getting that water, just like
you're still being sustained even if you're an atheist on Earth.
But when you're in Hell, it's like being in the
desert without water there you realize the necessity of it
in the consequence of that decision in a more real way,
(20:11):
and that's not lacking love in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Well, Jesus, I don't disagree with you on any point,
especially in terms of understanding that there's no way around
God's involvement on this earth and with every sentient being
that inhabits this earth. But with God's design, like you said,
also comes choice. And what I have a hard time
(20:37):
understanding is that choice. You know, it's very cut and
dry when it comes to biblical principles. You know, if
you don't follow this, if you don't follow that, you're
going to go to hell. And I don't necessarily agree
with that. I think there are a lot of really
(20:57):
really good people on this earth.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Wha wha, wha wha whoa good? What does that mean?
By what? By what standard? Is somebody good? By your standard?
How could you even say that somebody is good vincent?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
By who?
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Is that a cultural statement that the culture says that
they're good or the populace says they're good.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Who This isn't a sociological viewpoint. I think that inherently.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Can be good or by what standard, biblical standard, thou
thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not lie, that shall
not commit adultery? By what standard do you say someone's good?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Hmmm, well it couldn't be only biblical, although a lot
of those biblical principles are very sound. You know, of course,
you shouldn't kill people, and you shouldn't.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Do you think society should decide what good, what's good
and what's bad?
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Not necessarily, because society is soluble.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yes, So where do you get the standard of good?
Is that just the things that you like?
Speaker 3 (22:08):
No, not necessarily, because it's not even taste. I think
that humans.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Inherently know what's and where does that inherent knowledge come from?
It's okay, so why is it? This is what gets
me at Vincent. You will sit there reasonably, and I
love that you're even bringing these things up and that
you're questioning it. That's a good thing. Some churches may
(22:32):
not think that, but I think that's a good thing.
The problem lies in that you're picking and choosing it
that The question is not how come this is the
only way to be saved? The question is why is
there any way to be saved? Because it's undeserving? Your
Your standard of good comes from God. Period. There is
(22:52):
not one society on the planet, not even a cannibalistic society.
There is not one society that believes it's okay to murder,
not one. There's not one society on this planet that
believes it's okay to steal. Do you know that even
a thief doesn't believe it's okay to steal. If you
try and steal from them, they'll tell you that they
(23:15):
supersede that in their own mind that it's okay for
them for whatever reason, I'm poor, or the world has
handed me a bad go of it, or whatever it is.
They rationalize it, but no one believes it's okay. It
is inherent. It's inherent in human beings. They know that
these things are wrong because God placed that in their heart,
that knowledge of good and evil and understanding the two,
(23:37):
so that they could make a choice. They choose to
do evil. They choose to do things that are wrong,
like they choose to go to hell. If if you're
in a burning building, Vincent and the fire department comes
in and they cut a hole that is in the
shape of a square, are you gonna argue with them
(23:59):
that you'd rather go out a circle. That you don't
think it's fair that they make you go out of
a square, and that you don't want that kind of salvation.
It's ridiculous. It's not a matter of people. People get
bent out of shape, Vincent because they don't want to
give up what they don't want to give up. They
don't want to be accountable, they don't want to be
held accountable, and they don't want anything in their life
(24:22):
that is at have to, so they continue to reject God.
And there are other religions out there, and there are counterfeits,
and there are all these things. But this is the
Jesus Christ Show, so you kind of knew what you
were getting into as far as far as what side
I'm going to land on. But scripture says these things
not to paint you into a corner, Vincent, not to
(24:45):
make you feel boxed in, but it gives you an out,
and people don't do that. Wow, I'd really like to
go out my window instead of a door, and hew
come houses and structural engineering and architects design things with doors.
I want to port whole on the top of the
house because it's not efficient and there's a point where
(25:05):
you have to trust that God created things because it
is the best way to the best possible world, which
is heaven. But earth is not the best possible world,
and that the fact that there's any way to salvation
is the miracle, not that it just happens to be
via my death. And now you get sides and teams going, oh, well,
I don't that's not what I believe, that's not what
(25:26):
I was raised with. It doesn't matter. It's about truth.
That's what should be at the center of it. Not
a particular team, not Christians versus this group. Not what
is the truth? And when you're led to that truth,
then accept it or reject it and receive the blessings
or the consequences sal Welcome to the Jesus Christ Show.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Oh I'm curious as to how you can impute divinity
or even reliability to a set of documents that were
cobbled together centuries after they were written. Never mind the
fact that they were written in some cases, in many cases,
decades after the events that they describe. But I'm really
(26:19):
troubled by the fact that they were put together. Talking
about the apocrypal full books of the Bible that aren't
accepted into the cannon. It seems to me that it's
a hit in this kind of thing. You know, you
pick one, you don't pick another, and then you and
in the end say well, this is what the word
of God is. I don't buy it.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
No, I don't suppose you do. And it's a noble question. Indeed,
what I will say, sal is that you've asked more
than one question. So I'll address as much of it
as I can, because they're all they're all important in
their own right, but they've kind of all deal with
different answers. So I will say this for the sake
of time. If you look at any of history, you've
(27:03):
any work of antiquity, you've articulated the same thing. So
that would you'd have to discount any work of history,
because you know, even Homer's Iliad, I think there's four
hundred copies, Caesar's Gaelic Wars, you've got ten copies, all
written after the fact. That's the way history happens. So
(27:23):
it's written after the fact. So in the case, so
scripture is not the anomaly, it's not the standout. As
a matter of fact, scripture, if you're dealing with just
the New Testament alone, you have over twenty five thousand,
not ten, not four hundred, twenty five thousand whole and
parts of manuscripts in there, even building into their entirety,
(27:47):
you could actually reconstruct the New Testament save for about
a handful of John the Book of John by the
early church father's teachings. So it doesn't stand up the
same way as other works of antiquity. It stands out
and compared to other works of antiquity. To compare the
(28:09):
two is silly. When you look at history. All of
History South is written after the fact. You could write
something about JFK. You could write something about Martin Luther
King Junior, and it still holds water. There might even
be more insights that could be added to it. So
(28:29):
I don't know that that appeal to antiquity is the
proper way to look at it. I think it actually
ends up being fallacious. Having said that, I think authorship
can be seen in many different ways, and for the
sake of time all answer one that I'm hoping that
sticks with you, that is that you listen to the
voice of something. Bibliographical tests are often used to decide
(28:51):
what scripture or what book is written by whom and
that's not just in scripture, that's with any work of antiquity.
So in the case of scripture, you want to hear
a voice. And if you listen to scripture and the
things it says, it's not a book man would write.
If he could. Man wouldn't write a book of rules
that he doesn't want to live by at all. He
(29:11):
would take out all the things dealing with premarital sex.
He would take out all the things dealing with the
things that he doesn't want to do. Why would he
write the very book that he rebels against. It's not
in the voice of man, it's in the voice of God.
KFI AM six forty on demand
You're listening to KFI A M six forty on demand. Brett,
Welcome to the Jesus Christ Show.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hello Jesus, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I am well, Brett? How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (00:12):
I'm pretty good?
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Okay, good here, and you're very chipper for this time
of day.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, I work nice.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Oh excellent. So you're coming, you're coming down, ending your day?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Coming down? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
How can I help you?
Speaker 4 (00:24):
All right?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Well, I have a would you consider the God of
the Bible good?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Well? Yes, well I'm kind of partial to that. I
assume you would have thought that I'd answer that it
would be weird for this show. Yes.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
The question is when an atheist will point to something
in the Bible and say that that is a sign
of God's immorality, that is a sign of God being evil. Yes,
then they will say that you simply cannot judge God.
But by saying that God is good, you are also
making a judgment absolutely.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Judging absolutely, and that would be that would be a
fallacy for the Christian to put themselves in that kind
of argumentation. It's it's it's not the proper way to
look at it.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Then, how then, how can you tell that God is good?
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Okay? Well, there's a couple of things going on here. First, uh,
When whenever you are in a situation like this, defining
your terms is important. So defining what judgment is is
important because there is a difference between judgment. You're the
same way, Brett, You're exactly the same way. If I
came up to you and I said I don't like
the way you did X, Y and Z, you'd say, oh,
(01:32):
you know what, I don't want you to judge me.
But if I came up to you and said, wow,
that was really great that what you did, Brett, you
wouldn't go, I don't want you to judge me. So
it's it's it's important to understand what judgment means in
that context. When scripture talks about uh, well, scripture, when
it talks about thou shalt not judge, lest ye be judged,
(01:52):
it's talking about thinking that you're better than somebody, or
being condescending in a way that you aren't looking or
taking account the things that you do in life. You're
merely looking outwardly constantly at what everyone else does. It's
not about justice. Of course, you're to judge. Christians should judge,
everyone should judge.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I'm not saying that judgment is wrong. I'm saying, if
you're telling the atheists that they cannot judge judge God bad,
then you can also not call him good.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yes, which brings me to my second point. So that
was just about defining the term about judgment what judgment is. Secondly,
there's a qualifier that's missing in that statement from the
Christian which is why I have a problem with it,
and that is that there are certain things that you
can't judge God above God. Going back to my definition
about being outside of the judgment, So if you're constantly
(02:39):
judging others and not looking at yourself, there's a problem,
a problem. No, I'm saying with let's let's take it.
It's not a personal thing. That we're looking at the
greater theological or philosophical ramifications of that statement. So in
this case, somebody is saying you can't judge God is
(03:00):
not actually actually correct. That's that's not correct. You can't
oversee judgment upon God. Man is not high enough.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
You can't actually enforce.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
That judgment exactly. So really what you're doing is you
can make observations about God and you can see those
things in God, but you can't judge God's decisions. So
that's what the statement needs. It needs more qualifiers to
understand what kind of judgment you're doing. You can't sit
in judgment of God. So for God to.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Actually exist, yes, then you could not. He would have
all the powers, so you could not actually say. You
could say that he was wrong all you wanted, but
it wouldn't matter.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Exactly because God, God, by definition, is a transcendent, So if.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It trans in that respect, doesn't, well, that's.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
It's you know, a little anthropomorphic on your part if
you want to apply those human attributes and you want
to say, well, that seems this way to you, but
really you're still have to pull it down to a
human element. A mob boss is just a human who
thinks he's better than a human. God is better than
a human, so over you.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
You cannot. They are just doing whatever they feel like. Yeah,
but there's no choice in the matter.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
No, but there's a righteousness to it. A mob boss
has their own wants. Well, because God is justice. There's
a difference. Now you're trying to parse the fact that
there are human beings that abuse that.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
God is justice. I'm sorry, what makes you think that
God is justice?
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Well, the show is that Jesus Christ show we'd come
from the generic Judeo Christian priests. You got to give
me that one, a little bit, pardon, you got to
give me that one. I mean, the show pretty much
lays it out in the in the name there, it's
right there for everyone to see. I'm going to come from.
I'm going to tell you that there are things not
(04:47):
only in scripture, but outside of scripture that point to
the justice and the love of God. As a matter
of fact, Brett, you telling me that there are things
that are good or bad in this world comes from where?
Why do you judge what's good or bad? Why do
you why do you say something's good or something's bad
in life?
Speaker 5 (05:03):
For you?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Things that are harmful and things that you're beneficial.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
No no, no, no, no, no no, that's that's hedonism. You
don't believe that because they're who no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Not he not hedonism. If I slam my hand, this
idea that we can only judge things wrong because there's
some kind of ultimate standard we're judging against is silly. Okay,
you tell me my hand in a car door that hurts, okay,
But I'm not seeing some kind of ultimate standard of
non hurt.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Okay, So everything that hurts is bad.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Depending on how depending on how it goes.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Is everything is everything that causes pain bad? Is everything
that causes pleasure good? Okay? So that's a that's a
lousy standard. Wouldn't you say?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
I did not say that, sir?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Okay? So is pleasure good?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Pleasure can be good, It can be good.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
So when does pleasure become So when does pleasure become bad?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
When it becomes harmful to you?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
And what is harm there?
Speaker 2 (06:02):
If you just sit there having pleasure all day long?
And what is harm if you just sit there with
just pleasure all day long and start to ignore things
that you need, start to ignore things that are more
beneficial towards you?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Says who says who?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Well says reality says reality?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
And what context says who? What do you? You're you're
using circular reasoning as you go back and say, well,
if it's pleasure but only pleasure sometimes.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Sir, if you sit there shooting up on drugs all
day long, you will feel pleasure, but at the same
time you're doing psysical damage to your body.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
What if you what if you shoot up? What if
you shoot up only partial during the day, so maybe
six hours.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
And you're still doing damage to your body. That's sort
of your decision.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
What kind of damage. Now, if you cut open a person,
does that cause damage to them?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Technically yes, it depends on what your what your point is.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
That's That's what I'm saying, is that you keep adding
a qualifier to it. So there is no standard for
what is good or bad. You have to keep judging
whether it's good or bad based on what you think
is good or bad, or pleasurable or harmful. There is
no universal what is pleasurable or harmful unless you're the
one that's You kind of keep saying, well, I deem
(07:20):
this pleasurable, I deem this harmful. But who does that society?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
We get together into society ourselves, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
It's so it's the society that decides what's good and bad.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Societies generally do yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Are there societies that do things that are bad?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Okay? Then who judges that society.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
The people in that society.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
No, because they're the ones doing it bad. They didn't,
you know, not see Germany didn't self regulate, okay, and
that so that society, that society did not self regulate
who regulated.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Them, Your society of the world.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
I see. So as long as the world sees it
as okay, then it's okay.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I cannot give you an ultimate stand.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
No you can't. That's the point, Brett. That's what I
want you to say. You're obviously not stupid, so I
want you to see that all you do is push
it upon another chain link, another chain link, because this
infinite regression of maybe this, maybe that, and maybe this,
and that's not how it works. Eventually, you have to
(08:29):
get to a place outside of that society to make
that judgment. A can in a standard measuring rod, because
you can't just say an inch is an inch as
an inch. Somebody has to agree on that, and it
has to be outside of the inch. The measurement tool
can't be the ultimate measuring tool because it's temporal. It's
(08:53):
not it's not infinite, and that's what you're looking for.
That's what you need. That is what defines it. And
we could have been here all day, Brett, and you
would have had to come up with one more reason.
Whereas the theist doesn't. It stops at God, God alone,
(09:15):
the transcendent lawgiver, who is always in the law Wannie,
Welcome to the Jesus Christ Show.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
Good morning, Jesus.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
I'll have a question.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
I have a question for you.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (09:32):
I read a book called The Appointment with You Always,
and it was talking about the established and it's meant
that the established the establish originally was established on the
moon cycles, and that the reason that it was changed
was because it commercially.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Applies, because of because of what commercial it.
Speaker 5 (09:55):
Applies, that the merchant wanted to establish a certain.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Day like this say, oh, gotcha, Okay, Well, no, that's false.
Now your phone's a little muddy there, so I'm gonna
put you on hold because it's kind of hard to understand,
and I'm guessing that the listeners having a hard time understanding.
So essentially, you're asking about the Sabbath and that the
Sabbath was changed. No, the Sabbath was established in Genesis,
(10:21):
chapter two, verse two, and it says by the seventh
day God completed his work with which his hands had done,
and he rested on the seventh day from all of
his work which he had done. There's the first sign
of the Sabbath. Sabbath is the Hebrew word shabbat, by
(10:41):
the word for Sabbath and the Greek word sabatan. They
both mean to rest from labor. That's what it means.
So that's where it comes from. And you find it
also in the Ten Commandments. You see it in Exodus
twenty eight through. But a lot of people get the
(11:04):
too confused between the Sabbath, which is Saturday, and they
get that confused with the Christian day of rest after
the Resurrection, which is Sunday. Okay, it's it's referred to
as the Lord's Day. So the Sabbath is still on Saturday.
(11:25):
The Lord's Day is on Sunday. The majority of Christians
practice their faith and rest and go to church and
all that on Sunday, the Lord's Day, not Sabbath. Now
we're there there changes in calendars and and things like
that throughout the years. Yes, but the Sabbath is still
considered the last day of the week. It's not a
(11:47):
particular uh, it's not a particular day per se. It's
the last day of the week. And that's you know,
that's important because people get caught up in in the
Sabbath and start almost worshiping it, Like is this if
the Sabbath is the thing to worship and if you
remember when I was asked about the Sabbath in scripture,
I said that Sabbath was made for man, not man
(12:08):
for the Sabbath. And also look up Colossians chapter two,
verse sixteen. Therefore, let no one act as your judge
in regard to the food or drink, or in respect
to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.
Meaning don't be judged by those that say that you
have to worship this way, or you have to worship
(12:30):
on that day, or any of those things. The important
part of the Sabbath is that you stop that there's
one day that you stop, you rest, you communion with God.
You should be doing that throughout the week as well,
but have that specific time to set that apart, to
do that and make it important in your life, Lonnie,
(12:51):
that's the key. That is what's most important. Don't get
lost in just the strict tradition of things, because sometimes
traditions start becoming idols. People start worshiping those traditions rather
than the word of God. And really it's about you
taking that time. You having the time of rest, you
having time with God, and stopping from working. That's the
(13:15):
most important thing. To have that time away from work,
that downtime. Vincent, Welcome to the Jesus Christ Show.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Oho, Jesus Hi Hi. My question is in regard to
the whole conference of God. Okay, my banks are Christian pastors,
and so I've been raised with the Christian religion my
whole life. I don't necessarily agree with most applications to it.
I think a lot of the teaching that you brought
(13:51):
I agree with, but when it comes to the institution
of the church itself, I have a lot of disagreements
with their approach.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
The question that I have regarding God is if God
is you see of love and forgiveness and understanding and compassion. A,
why is that not reflected in the Christian religion? And
b why why would there be such things as how
(14:20):
or even sins? For that matter? If God was you
know of forgiveness and understanding.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Okay, Well you asked kind of four questions in there,
so let's get to as many of them as we can,
and keep in mind that it's very difficult. As you're
a PK and PK's pastors. Kids often have a difficult
time because reconciling between seeing their parents as humans, and
then the words that I have to be taught as well.
(14:51):
If you imagine Vincent, the it's been said by a
chief of police that the judicial system of the United
s States is perfect save for one problem, and that
is that it has to be run by human beings.
That is exactly the same problem with the church. You're
dealing with perfection, but yet those that are preaching or
(15:12):
teaching it are imperfect. However, your concept or your definition
is what's at the root of your concern. It's how
you define these things is what you have a problem with.
You have love, forgiveness, Hell, it's the way you define
them that causes the problem, not having them in themselves,
(15:32):
because forgiveness is different than reconciliation, and love isn't just
ignoring the stupid things people do and giving them a hug,
which is what most people think when they think of love.
They go, oh, love is just kind of ignoring all
the bad stuff and just being nice to them. That's
not love at all. And so really, your understanding of
(15:55):
those things plays a big part. Hell, for instance, Vincent,
what what kind of music do you hate that you
just can't stand?
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I'll the country Western?
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Okay, you know, What the funny thing is is that
I asked this question on occasion, and that's one of
the top two. So let's say country western. You don't
like country western, so you don't want to listen to
it for a half hour, do you? You don't want
to listen to it for a full day?
Speaker 4 (16:26):
Do you right?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
You wouldn't want to be forced to listen to it
for a year, would you right? Okay, So if I
forced you to listen to country music for an eternity,
that would be hell because you don't want to it.
You don't want it, you want no part of it,
and therefore, why would you want to experience it forever? Heaven?
(16:50):
All heaven is and I say all because some people
like to whittle it down as if this is a negative.
All heaven is communion and worship eternally with the Father.
If you don't want to love Him and serve him
for seventy eighty ninety measly years on earth, God will
(17:12):
not force you to do that for eternity. So he
allows you and send you to allows you to make
a choice here on earth to not be with Him
for eternity, and it's called hell to not be with
But eternity from God. And the thing that people don't
(17:36):
get wrap their heads around, Vincent, is that you think
you don't want God. And this isn't you, particularly the
Greater You think they don't want God. Yet they don't
know that God even works in their life even if
they reject Him. On Earth, God is still sustaining this planet.
They so they are getting all the benefits of God
(17:57):
even if they don't know it, or at least part
of those benefits, and in hell they won't have any
of them. It's like the petulant child going, you know what,
I hate my parents. I just want to move, and
then realizing now they're on the streets, there's no roof
over their head, there's no one guiding them, there's no
one giving them love. And now they understand the power
(18:18):
of it, but can't go back because the decision is
so respected by God that humans have the ability to
make that decision, that it is a final and eternal
decision at the point of death. So that's what hell
is is somebody truly experiencing for eternity the eternal decision
(18:38):
they made. That's it. It's a respect factor. It's not
an unloving or an unjust God. It's a very loving
and very just God who says I respect you, I
love you. Love can only exist by mutual respect. Love
can only exist if I give you a choice not
to love, because forced love is rape. Forcing somebody to
(19:02):
give themselves to you, to physically give themselves to you,
to be a part of your life, to give what
you want of a situation is wrong and it's evil,
and God can't and won't do it. He allows humans
to make the conscious, educated choice to reject him for
(19:26):
all of eternity. But it's like rejecting water. When you're
in a desert, you're going to know how much you
need water. And all these people that you come across
in life that go, oh, I don't drink water because
I hate the taste, Well, your body needs it. And
it's not till you really understand that you're getting water
(19:48):
in jews, or you're getting water even in SODA's, you're
getting water little bits here and there, that your body
stays hydrated, that you're still getting that water, just like
you're still being sustained even if you're an atheist on Earth.
But when you're in Hell, it's like being in the
desert without water there you realize the necessity of it
in the consequence of that decision in a more real way,
(20:11):
and that's not lacking love in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Well, Jesus, I don't disagree with you on any point,
especially in terms of understanding that there's no way around
God's involvement on this earth and with every sentient being
that inhabits this earth. But with God's design, like you said,
also comes choice. And what I have a hard time
(20:37):
understanding is that choice. You know, it's very cut and
dry when it comes to biblical principles. You know, if
you don't follow this, if you don't follow that, you're
going to go to hell. And I don't necessarily agree
with that. I think there are a lot of really
(20:57):
really good people on this earth.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Wha wha, wha wha whoa good? What does that mean?
By what? By what standard? Is somebody good? By your standard?
How could you even say that somebody is good vincent?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
By who?
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Is that a cultural statement that the culture says that
they're good or the populace says they're good.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Who This isn't a sociological viewpoint. I think that inherently.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Can be good or by what standard, biblical standard, thou
thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not lie, that shall
not commit adultery? By what standard do you say someone's good?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Hmmm, well it couldn't be only biblical, although a lot
of those biblical principles are very sound. You know, of course,
you shouldn't kill people, and you shouldn't.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Do you think society should decide what good, what's good
and what's bad?
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Not necessarily, because society is soluble.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yes, So where do you get the standard of good?
Is that just the things that you like?
Speaker 3 (22:08):
No, not necessarily, because it's not even taste. I think
that humans.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Inherently know what's and where does that inherent knowledge come from?
It's okay, so why is it? This is what gets
me at Vincent. You will sit there reasonably, and I
love that you're even bringing these things up and that
you're questioning it. That's a good thing. Some churches may
(22:32):
not think that, but I think that's a good thing.
The problem lies in that you're picking and choosing it
that The question is not how come this is the
only way to be saved? The question is why is
there any way to be saved? Because it's undeserving? Your
Your standard of good comes from God. Period. There is
(22:52):
not one society on the planet, not even a cannibalistic society.
There is not one society that believes it's okay to murder,
not one. There's not one society on this planet that
believes it's okay to steal. Do you know that even
a thief doesn't believe it's okay to steal. If you
try and steal from them, they'll tell you that they
(23:15):
supersede that in their own mind that it's okay for
them for whatever reason, I'm poor, or the world has
handed me a bad go of it, or whatever it is.
They rationalize it, but no one believes it's okay. It
is inherent. It's inherent in human beings. They know that
these things are wrong because God placed that in their heart,
that knowledge of good and evil and understanding the two,
(23:37):
so that they could make a choice. They choose to
do evil. They choose to do things that are wrong,
like they choose to go to hell. If if you're
in a burning building, Vincent and the fire department comes
in and they cut a hole that is in the
shape of a square, are you gonna argue with them
(23:59):
that you'd rather go out a circle. That you don't
think it's fair that they make you go out of
a square, and that you don't want that kind of salvation.
It's ridiculous. It's not a matter of people. People get
bent out of shape, Vincent because they don't want to
give up what they don't want to give up. They
don't want to be accountable, they don't want to be
held accountable, and they don't want anything in their life
(24:22):
that is at have to, so they continue to reject God.
And there are other religions out there, and there are counterfeits,
and there are all these things. But this is the
Jesus Christ Show, so you kind of knew what you
were getting into as far as far as what side
I'm going to land on. But scripture says these things
not to paint you into a corner, Vincent, not to
(24:45):
make you feel boxed in, but it gives you an out,
and people don't do that. Wow, I'd really like to
go out my window instead of a door, and hew
come houses and structural engineering and architects design things with doors.
I want to port whole on the top of the
house because it's not efficient and there's a point where
(25:05):
you have to trust that God created things because it
is the best way to the best possible world, which
is heaven. But earth is not the best possible world,
and that the fact that there's any way to salvation
is the miracle, not that it just happens to be
via my death. And now you get sides and teams going, oh, well,
I don't that's not what I believe, that's not what
(25:26):
I was raised with. It doesn't matter. It's about truth.
That's what should be at the center of it. Not
a particular team, not Christians versus this group. Not what
is the truth? And when you're led to that truth,
then accept it or reject it and receive the blessings
or the consequences sal Welcome to the Jesus Christ Show.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Oh I'm curious as to how you can impute divinity
or even reliability to a set of documents that were
cobbled together centuries after they were written. Never mind the
fact that they were written in some cases, in many cases,
decades after the events that they describe. But I'm really
(26:19):
troubled by the fact that they were put together. Talking
about the apocrypal full books of the Bible that aren't
accepted into the cannon. It seems to me that it's
a hit in this kind of thing. You know, you
pick one, you don't pick another, and then you and
in the end say well, this is what the word
of God is. I don't buy it.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
No, I don't suppose you do. And it's a noble question. Indeed,
what I will say, sal is that you've asked more
than one question. So I'll address as much of it
as I can, because they're all they're all important in
their own right, but they've kind of all deal with
different answers. So I will say this for the sake
of time. If you look at any of history, you've
(27:03):
any work of antiquity, you've articulated the same thing. So
that would you'd have to discount any work of history,
because you know, even Homer's Iliad, I think there's four
hundred copies, Caesar's Gaelic Wars, you've got ten copies, all
written after the fact. That's the way history happens. So
(27:23):
it's written after the fact. So in the case, so
scripture is not the anomaly, it's not the standout. As
a matter of fact, scripture, if you're dealing with just
the New Testament alone, you have over twenty five thousand,
not ten, not four hundred, twenty five thousand whole and
parts of manuscripts in there, even building into their entirety,
(27:47):
you could actually reconstruct the New Testament save for about
a handful of John the Book of John by the
early church father's teachings. So it doesn't stand up the
same way as other works of antiquity. It stands out
and compared to other works of antiquity. To compare the
(28:09):
two is silly. When you look at history. All of
History South is written after the fact. You could write
something about JFK. You could write something about Martin Luther
King Junior, and it still holds water. There might even
be more insights that could be added to it. So
(28:29):
I don't know that that appeal to antiquity is the
proper way to look at it. I think it actually
ends up being fallacious. Having said that, I think authorship
can be seen in many different ways, and for the
sake of time all answer one that I'm hoping that
sticks with you, that is that you listen to the
voice of something. Bibliographical tests are often used to decide
(28:51):
what scripture or what book is written by whom and
that's not just in scripture, that's with any work of antiquity.
So in the case of scripture, you want to hear
a voice. And if you listen to scripture and the
things it says, it's not a book man would write.
If he could. Man wouldn't write a book of rules
that he doesn't want to live by at all. He
(29:11):
would take out all the things dealing with premarital sex.
He would take out all the things dealing with the
things that he doesn't want to do. Why would he
write the very book that he rebels against. It's not
in the voice of man, it's in the voice of God.
KFI AM six forty on demand
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