March 16, 2025 • 29 mins
Misunderstandings
Leaders that Fall Away
Men and Beards
Leaders that Fall Away
Men and Beards
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to KFI AM six forty on demand.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
You can't help when it comes to communication, having a
breakdown of communication to say that if there is any
sort of communication, you're gonna have bad communication as well.
We've talked about assumptions many times on the show about
how people assume things, and misunderstandings is kind of a
smaller category of that. Misunderstandings and communication are those things
(00:29):
that happened innocently. Most of the time, you'll do something
or someone else will do something, and then you kind
of need two halves to this. You need the person
sending out the message and the person receiving the message.
So the person who sends the message does one thing
(00:50):
could be innocently, and then the person that receives the
message receives it either partially or inaccurately or what have you.
And then you have misunderstandings. And they have been all
over the place. They happen in scripture, of course, and
this breakdown in communication. The reason why it's it's unique
and I wanted to point it out is that there
(01:10):
is something, there's this great pride that shadows people when
it comes to knowing things. Well, I know this or
I just know this. And when it comes to knowing
the heart of man, you will never be right. There's
(01:32):
too much to it. You may have a decent insight
and say, okay, well my perception is this, it's this,
or it's this, but truly, no one knows the heart
of man except God. So one guy says something, the
other guy interprets that goes, oh, well, I think this,
(01:53):
and no one ever talks just kind of go on
and start spreading that misunderstanding. Have you ever seen a
fight or a scuffle breakout between siblings when a mother
or father is in the room observing everything, and how
(02:16):
just the slightest situation, Oh well, he hit me. Well no,
he didn't hit you. I saw the way it went down.
He was backing up from getting from the table and
backed his chair and you not knowing that you were there,
and the kids are so ready to just say no,
absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
He bumped into me. He did that on purpose.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
And how much like children are you when you come
to a conclusion that someone has done you wrong without
all the facts. And it seems that because detective shows
or television shows where people can know all and come
(03:01):
to conclusions faster than anybody else, because all things are
solved in the twenty two minute half hour of a
television program, or of course in forty five minutes should
they have commercial breaks, and it'd be an hour. But
that's just not the way life is not. Everything's going
to be so cut and dry, and there's confusion in life.
(03:23):
And communication is of a very wonderful and delicate art
at times. But if you look at the workplace and
even the home and the relationships you're in, how easy
it is to be misunderstood. And through this misunderstanding, something
(03:45):
get buried and then pushed on to someone else, and
then they push it on to someone else, and then
they push it onto someone else, and it becomes becomes
fact just by populous, and scripture is not keen on
that specifically. A scripture says in Matthew eighteen fifteen that
if you have an issue of any kind, you're to
(04:07):
go to that person and you're to explain your issue,
and you're going to let them defend themselves or explain
or learn from what they did wrong. But it doesn't
seem to be in fashion, It doesn't seem to be
in vogue to give somebody the opportunity to correct themselves,
(04:34):
and so someone will go running off with a misunderstanding.
Happens all the time corporate America. The perception you hear
somebody say part of a sentence, or you see somebody
do something. Just the other day, I saw two people
coming out of one of the studios at the radio station,
(04:58):
and they were in a conversation prior to being in
the studio, and then continued it as they left the
studio in a whisper fashion. And the automatic assumption is that, oh,
they must be talking about the person that they just
saw in the studio. That makes sense, they're leaving the
(05:18):
place whispering had nothing to do with the person in
the studio. I see people in the grocery store who
watch somebody who gets in front of them, and they
think that the person is doing that on purpose, when
an actuality, the person didn't see them or was confused
by the way the line is set. And these little
(05:40):
misunderstandings may not seem like a big deal to you,
but what ends up happening is either hurt feelings come
from that, or anger festers up because somebody feels that
they've been done wrong, Or what happens is somebody will
(06:01):
defend themselves in their own mind if they perceive somebody
as doing something to them by starting some sort of
war with that person, whether it be behind the scenes
or spreading rumors or what have you. And these misunderstandings
can be ugly and damaging. You'd be surprised how much
(06:21):
you don't know about the people around you. And so
that's part of the beauty of getting to know one another.
This spreads in so much. I see wonderful relationships wobbling
or taking on horrible, horrible pain because of misunderstandings, and
because of people's fear of being rejected. They may not
(06:46):
be you may not be very prone to ask the
tough questions or to you know, really find out if
something's going on or if there's a concern. Maybe you
don't want to know, but scripture is clear, you go
to one another and you talk about these things. The
(07:06):
majority of the problems that come from miscommunication going to
be cleared up very quickly. The secondary problem is that
nobody believes anybody anymore. So even when you try and
correct things, it seems that it gets oh okay, yeah,
but I still don't believe them, And I'm not sure
(07:28):
why this says, I'm not sure why once you have
something locked inside you you have some idea of how
it went down, that you believe that that's the only
way it could go down. This is all throughout scripture.
There's tons of things in scripture that have that the
(07:50):
attitude of misunderstanding. There's things that are taught in scripture
that people were taught wrong growing up, and I still
assume that it's in scripture. I hear arguments all the time.
You've heard them on this very program where people will
call up and say, oh, well, that's because you know
the apple that Eve ate there wasn't an apple. It
(08:15):
doesn't say anything about an apple. It says fruit. Not
a very big misunderstanding, but some people can be I've
heard arguments saying, oh, well, I heard that the Garden
of Eden was in Palestine, and that's not possible they
don't have apples. But yeah, all kinds of a lot
of assumptions that someone has to to swallow first before
(08:37):
they can even make that argument. In logic, they call
it a straw man argument. When you build and imagine
like a scarecrow. You build a false argument, this false person,
and then you torch the person. They say, well, that's fine,
but that's not even that's not even a real person.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
That person's made out of straw.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
And there's much that in scripture where somebody will say, oh, well,
there was two of each animal on the arc. No,
there were pairs. Sometimes there were more than two of
each animal. And people say things like Jonah and the
whale doesn't say whale, says big fish, and different things,
different stories that you know, there was three wise men. No,
(09:20):
it doesn't say three wise men, says the magi. There
was three gifts. So the assumption is it's three, but
not necessarily. You know, people think about the image of
an angel and what an angel looks like or what
an angel has and the one pair of wings and
the harp and the singing, and you're not going to
(09:42):
find that in scripture. So there's things that get built
in throughout history or time and the assumption is this
is what scripture says or what have you. And there's
those types of misunderstandings and all in all, the important
thing to do in every case where you think that you.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Might just on one tiny little.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Point might be wrong, just take the time to research
and take the time to talk it out, Tom, Welcome
to the Jesus Christ Show. Hello, you've been so patient.
I recognize that you called last week as well, and
you did not get on. I'm so grateful that you are.
You are patient enough because your call was one that
(10:28):
touched me.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Well, keep what's going on.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
As the word says, keep seeking and keep knocking. I
was a pastor for twenty one years. Eighteen years ago,
though I committed adultery, I did leave the ministry. I repented,
I built bridges. I haven't pastored for eighteen years now.
(10:52):
I'm still with my dear wife of thirty eight years.
But now I have a chance to go back into
the pastorate. But something nagging at me because biblically am
I permanently disqualified? Or or do I have a chance
at restoration? Since for the overseer he is to be
(11:15):
blameless and above reproach. And so I am struggling with Biblically,
can I be a pastor again?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
There is nothing, there's nothing in scripture that grants that
wish as it were. I know you're looking for a
different answer, Tom, And the pastor and and and standing
before people in that context is one of great weight
(11:44):
and one that comes up obviously in scripture, as you
quote Uh and Timothy and Titus.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Chuckswindall.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
UH, well known author and pastor himself once said that
talking about this very issue, that it takes only one
pin to burst a balloon. And I know that the
world continually gets more relaxed with things and less offended
by things, and therefore they start to go, oh, well,
(12:18):
you know you should be more relaxed on this. And
I know you've seen a lot of TV preachers that
have fallen away or had situation then just get restored
right back, and really that all that does is make
Christianity more of a laughing stock. That doesn't mean that
there aren't things for you to do. There aren't wonderful
places for you to be in the church and things
that you can participate in. But it asks that of
(12:41):
Scripture specifically, because that's the mindset that a pastor has
to be in to be in that place being above reproach.
And it doesn't mean that you can't teach or there
aren't ways to teach. I'm gonna ask you to put
stay on hold, Tom because I want to talk to
you just after this quick uh, this quick break, but
(13:02):
I want to talk to you more about what that
means and some things that you may be able to
do that would fulfill that calling.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Tom, thanks for holding on.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Bumper music but brought me to my knees.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
That was.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Seemed to speak to my heart.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
That's that's why we have someone like Tony with us
to help orchestrate those moments as we go in and
out that emphasize with modern and older music as to
what's going on in people's lives. And right now, Tom,
you stand before your God as someone who has you
think of it this way, you're not being It's not punitive.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
When I when I.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Tell you that if you're a pastor and you fall
away from the standard of of leadership, the confused us
lies in Christians going, well, shouldn't we forgive?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
But this kind of earlsheibe one day paint job mentality
is great for a car, but not for restoring a
pastor to leadership. And that's become kind of the.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
The set pacing.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, if you give him a year off and we
kind of brush him up, get the dings out, repaint
them and put them back behind the pulpit, everything's going
to be fine. But I'll tell you something my producer
Neil I thought about ministry at one time.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Not a good enough guy. Knew it right out.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
He's just not a good enough guy, and and knew
that all it would do is bring problems to God.
And so if you're if you're going to stand before
God that way, Tom and lead people, you've you've got
to be in a different category and you've got to
be created for it.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Now.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Paul knew this.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Paul knew that if there were any problems, he would
be disqualified. Listen to his words in one Corinthians nine
twenty seven. He said, I disciplined my body. I discipline
my body and make it my slave, so that after
I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
(15:26):
And that's, you know, with the context of Paul, obviously,
that's dealing with sexual sin and the concern of that
being a problem. And you, you, in that moment when
you had that affair, you in that moment, said that
that woman, that orgasm, that sexual contact was more important
(15:49):
than your wife, than your own word and commitment, and
your God, you forfeit. You made the decision. You God
told you what the rules were, and you agreed to them,
(16:10):
and you forfeited that. I hope it was a great orgasm,
because that was that you forfeited, that, you gave that
up and you walked away from it. Now, that doesn't
mean God hates you. God still loves you. The Church
once loves you and wants you in the church. But
(16:34):
this kind of revolving door can be a problem, especially
to non believers, and believers just end up going oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
and they hear the teacher at the pulpit and they go, oh, well,
it's not a big deal, you know. And it's not
that you can't be human, but you got to be
above reproach. You've got to be standing above those things.
(16:59):
You have to be a good husband and a righteous man.
And that's the core problem.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
With the church.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Is that they look for dynamic speakers, good writers, somebody
who can publish books, someone who can sing well play guitar,
and that's and none of those things are mentioned in scripture,
none of them.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
And yet you gave Peter a second chance.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
It's not about second chances Peter. Peter denied in fear.
But Peter didn't, in that state of authority sleep with
someone sexual sin. You know this in scripture is set
(17:44):
apart and as a siner gets the body and that
and culturally that tends to kind of fall by the wayside.
You can look for excuses, Tom, Yeah, and you'll find
them in every nook and cranny of life. You will
find And I know that the assumption is, oh, well,
you know what, there's this this show they call it
(18:06):
Jesus Christ show. They've got to have liberal theology. No,
that is the That is the one reason why I'm
here is in hopes of one letting the legalists that
are just you know, trying to to crush the spirit
of Christianity know that I'm out there watching, and two
(18:28):
to let the those that are liberal in their theology
know that I'm out there watching.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Well, I always used to say, an excuse there's only
a skin of a reason wrapped in a lie. So
I'm not looking for any excuses.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
And that's a beautiful way to say it.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
You've got You've got your lovely wife who has been
who has been wonderful enough to forgive you through all
of this and to stand by you.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
You should be received into the body and uh, you
should participate in the church and enjoy the church. And
uh be brought back into fellowship, but not as a pastor.
There's nothing in scripture that's going to say that nothing.
And I know that's hard line, and I know people
will have problems with it, and people are going to say,
(19:13):
but I went through this and now I'm a But
it doesn't matter if you do that. In that moment,
you tell God, I want this instant, I want this romance,
I want this physical sensation. I want this more than
I want you. And this position that you called me
to you and you give it up, you had the
(19:35):
strength to not do it, and you chose not to.
There's a lot of sins you fall into in life
because they're around you in the way it is and
getting upset. I mean, if you were dealing with with
certain other attributes, it's not like you were gluttonous and
you've lost the weight. Now this is something specific, and
(20:01):
I know that that stinks and it's not what you
wanted to hear. But the reason why you should seek leadership,
the reason.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Why you should seek God.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Is because you respect it, because you're good at it,
you're comfortable doing it, or you liked it and you
received a lot from it. And people seem to like
when you say that's not it. I see these little,
these small little churches, Tom, with twenty families in them,
and the pastor doesn't speak that well, but boy he
(20:35):
loves God, and boy he knows scripture, and they're small
little churches. And then you get these slick churches, and
not all the large ones are slick, but you know
the difference. Slick churches with everything right and everything is
going smoothly, and they get massive and people think that
that's where God is because they're massive. Again, because I'm
(20:59):
gonna get emails people getting confused. I'm not saying that
a mega church or a very large churches is not
a church of God. I'm saying there's a difference. But
to just look at those appearances and say ones of
God because it's large, and ones not of God because
it's small. And all these different excuses people make about
what a pastor should.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Be and what shouldn't and all of these things.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
No Scripture says, and it's very specific, and you knew
that going into it, Tom, and you could quote it to.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Me today.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
And you said, for that moment, that time, however long
the affair lasted, that it didn't matter. You said, I
don't care, I want this and I want it now,
and you got it. Thank Heaven that your wife is
a godly woman who allowed you back into the marital
(21:51):
bed and in her life. You should count your blessings there.
And it doesn't mean that you can't write about your experiences,
that you can't use it to be a teaching tool.
That you'll never use any of your abilities for God
(22:11):
is a silly statement. But you can't do that anymore
because if you do that, as it says in scripture,
you crucify me twice. If you do that, you stand
and it doesn't show the glory of forgiveness. It shows
(22:33):
that nobody's watching the church and nobody cares. And it's
beyond just.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Being human.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
It was decisive, wouldn't you say, Tom, you made a
decision to do that. Yes, And aren't you man enough
both as a human and a Christian to receive those
consequences as they stand here on earth?
Speaker 3 (23:01):
I would hope.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
So, Well, then why.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Don't you move forward with that? An opportunity doesn't mean
it's a good one just because it exists. There are
Christians that ask the other Christians to do things all
the time. That may not be good for them. The
hope is that you have your own set of tools
for discernment and the ability to go Nope, this isn't
right for me, because you know, one Christian can say
(23:30):
you want to come over, I'm having a wine tasting
and it's not a problem for them, and it's not
a sin. Yet you're asking an alcoholic a Christian and
for them it would be a sin to participate in.
You can't slap the face of God on this one, Tom,
and I know that's not what you were looking for.
And you were so very brave and you know to
(23:54):
take the time and to call and to share those
things and to explain what you've gone through. But I
think that the church waivers far too much on certain things.
And as I said, you know, my producer Neil couldn't
live up to what it takes to be a pastor,
which is why he's not and why he's got to
(24:15):
participate in a show like this too, hopefully show his
own love for God. Susan, Welcome to the Jesus Christ Show.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
I just want to start by saying thank you very
much for your show. I really appreciate it and I
learn a lot from it, so I look forward to
it every week.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Oh, you're very nice, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Okay, I have a question. I have two parts to it.
I hope it doesn't seem too foolish, but I wonder
the Bible says we are wonderfully and fearfully made. I
wondered if there's any spiritual connection or significant to men
and beards. Okay, And I have two questions to questions
(25:06):
religious that Number one, why did God create men to
have beards? You know, he careered they were created that
way when all they do is shave it off. And
then the main reason is my son decided to go
a beard, and I just thought, like most guys, he
wanted to just give his face a rest from shaving
every day. But when I asked him, I was very
(25:29):
surprised to hear his answer. He said he did some
research on it, and in Bible times the only men
that were bare faced, as he says, were eunuchs and gays,
and so he said, I will never be bear faced again.
And I was thought very strange, And I was just
(25:49):
wondering if you had any any thoughts on that.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Not true on a lot of different levels. And there's
so much.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Unfortun we're not going to have time to get through
all of it, so I'll cut right to the chase.
That the reason why there's beards is because the bodies
are adaptable. The bodies are adaptive to their surroundings, and
body hair is part of that process. That's why you
get you know, what people call goose pimples or goosebumps
and the hair stands on it and stuff like that.
(26:21):
That is a reaction to the surrounding and your body
adapting to it. And the little hairs on your arms,
the hairs on your face are all there for protective
reasons for different parts or different things that were done.
That we're the roles of men and women. That's why
there's differences there. And you know, women may carry fatty
(26:41):
tissue in certain areas that men don't, et cetera. Some
people would say, well, that has to do with the
evolutionary process and all this. No, it's by design and
there's specifics to it and a biological specifics to it
that help with the individuals too. Esthetics that there are
aesthetic differences just like you see in nature, specifically for
(27:02):
the appearance of you know, if you see often the
male of the species often has the really colorful plumes,
and you think it would be the ladies, but not
necessarily true. And that's to attract a mate, and so
there's certain things about it being masculine and being distinct
from the female that becomes attractive. Doesn't mean that a
(27:24):
woman now likes a beard, but I will tell you
this that even women who like clean shaven men like
when a man has double sometimes and it gives that
look of relaxation and all these things. So there's aesthetic
things that go there. Scripturally, the reason why our Jewish
brothers and sisters would trim their beards, and now the
(27:48):
Orthodox Acidic Jews and the like will continue with this
process is because Leviticus nineteen twenty seven, specifically Leviticus nineteen
twenty seven talks about rounding the corners of your head,
so the beards and the sideburns were grown grown out,
and this part of the process of separating. The vitical
laws were there to separate from the pagans at the time,
(28:11):
and what the Pagans were doing, the our Jewish brothers
and sisters wouldn't be doing, so they would try and
separate themselves from the things that were going.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Going on in the day.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Now, some of the pagans might have and did practice
in certain things, whether it be homosexuality or what have you,
and so that may be where your son is kind
of turning this up. But really it's a it's a
it's a far stretch, and I'm not sure what your uh,
(28:46):
you know, what your son is protesting or what issues
he's going through that he feels the need to protest
his sexuality or his lack of a certain type of
sexuality or I'm not sure what's going on there or
what your son's going through. There might be that would
be a time for another discussion, is my guess. But
that's the biblical tie in and then biological tie in
(29:08):
and all of that, and I hope that that helps
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Kf I am six forty on demand
You're listening to KFI AM six forty on demand.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
You can't help when it comes to communication, having a
breakdown of communication to say that if there is any
sort of communication, you're gonna have bad communication as well.
We've talked about assumptions many times on the show about
how people assume things, and misunderstandings is kind of a
smaller category of that. Misunderstandings and communication are those things
(00:29):
that happened innocently. Most of the time, you'll do something
or someone else will do something, and then you kind
of need two halves to this. You need the person
sending out the message and the person receiving the message.
So the person who sends the message does one thing
(00:50):
could be innocently, and then the person that receives the
message receives it either partially or inaccurately or what have you.
And then you have misunderstandings. And they have been all
over the place. They happen in scripture, of course, and
this breakdown in communication. The reason why it's it's unique
and I wanted to point it out is that there
(01:10):
is something, there's this great pride that shadows people when
it comes to knowing things. Well, I know this or
I just know this. And when it comes to knowing
the heart of man, you will never be right. There's
(01:32):
too much to it. You may have a decent insight
and say, okay, well my perception is this, it's this,
or it's this, but truly, no one knows the heart
of man except God. So one guy says something, the
other guy interprets that goes, oh, well, I think this,
(01:53):
and no one ever talks just kind of go on
and start spreading that misunderstanding. Have you ever seen a
fight or a scuffle breakout between siblings when a mother
or father is in the room observing everything, and how
(02:16):
just the slightest situation, Oh well, he hit me. Well no,
he didn't hit you. I saw the way it went down.
He was backing up from getting from the table and
backed his chair and you not knowing that you were there,
and the kids are so ready to just say no,
absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
He bumped into me. He did that on purpose.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
And how much like children are you when you come
to a conclusion that someone has done you wrong without
all the facts. And it seems that because detective shows
or television shows where people can know all and come
(03:01):
to conclusions faster than anybody else, because all things are
solved in the twenty two minute half hour of a
television program, or of course in forty five minutes should
they have commercial breaks, and it'd be an hour. But
that's just not the way life is not. Everything's going
to be so cut and dry, and there's confusion in life.
(03:23):
And communication is of a very wonderful and delicate art
at times. But if you look at the workplace and
even the home and the relationships you're in, how easy
it is to be misunderstood. And through this misunderstanding, something
(03:45):
get buried and then pushed on to someone else, and
then they push it on to someone else, and then
they push it onto someone else, and it becomes becomes
fact just by populous, and scripture is not keen on
that specifically. A scripture says in Matthew eighteen fifteen that
if you have an issue of any kind, you're to
(04:07):
go to that person and you're to explain your issue,
and you're going to let them defend themselves or explain
or learn from what they did wrong. But it doesn't
seem to be in fashion, It doesn't seem to be
in vogue to give somebody the opportunity to correct themselves,
(04:34):
and so someone will go running off with a misunderstanding.
Happens all the time corporate America. The perception you hear
somebody say part of a sentence, or you see somebody
do something. Just the other day, I saw two people
coming out of one of the studios at the radio station,
(04:58):
and they were in a conversation prior to being in
the studio, and then continued it as they left the
studio in a whisper fashion. And the automatic assumption is that, oh,
they must be talking about the person that they just
saw in the studio. That makes sense, they're leaving the
(05:18):
place whispering had nothing to do with the person in
the studio. I see people in the grocery store who
watch somebody who gets in front of them, and they
think that the person is doing that on purpose, when
an actuality, the person didn't see them or was confused
by the way the line is set. And these little
(05:40):
misunderstandings may not seem like a big deal to you,
but what ends up happening is either hurt feelings come
from that, or anger festers up because somebody feels that
they've been done wrong, Or what happens is somebody will
(06:01):
defend themselves in their own mind if they perceive somebody
as doing something to them by starting some sort of
war with that person, whether it be behind the scenes
or spreading rumors or what have you. And these misunderstandings
can be ugly and damaging. You'd be surprised how much
(06:21):
you don't know about the people around you. And so
that's part of the beauty of getting to know one another.
This spreads in so much. I see wonderful relationships wobbling
or taking on horrible, horrible pain because of misunderstandings, and
because of people's fear of being rejected. They may not
(06:46):
be you may not be very prone to ask the
tough questions or to you know, really find out if
something's going on or if there's a concern. Maybe you
don't want to know, but scripture is clear, you go
to one another and you talk about these things. The
(07:06):
majority of the problems that come from miscommunication going to
be cleared up very quickly. The secondary problem is that
nobody believes anybody anymore. So even when you try and
correct things, it seems that it gets oh okay, yeah,
but I still don't believe them, And I'm not sure
(07:28):
why this says, I'm not sure why once you have
something locked inside you you have some idea of how
it went down, that you believe that that's the only
way it could go down. This is all throughout scripture.
There's tons of things in scripture that have that the
(07:50):
attitude of misunderstanding. There's things that are taught in scripture
that people were taught wrong growing up, and I still
assume that it's in scripture. I hear arguments all the time.
You've heard them on this very program where people will
call up and say, oh, well, that's because you know
the apple that Eve ate there wasn't an apple. It
(08:15):
doesn't say anything about an apple. It says fruit. Not
a very big misunderstanding, but some people can be I've
heard arguments saying, oh, well, I heard that the Garden
of Eden was in Palestine, and that's not possible they
don't have apples. But yeah, all kinds of a lot
of assumptions that someone has to to swallow first before
(08:37):
they can even make that argument. In logic, they call
it a straw man argument. When you build and imagine
like a scarecrow. You build a false argument, this false person,
and then you torch the person. They say, well, that's fine,
but that's not even that's not even a real person.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
That person's made out of straw.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
And there's much that in scripture where somebody will say, oh, well,
there was two of each animal on the arc. No,
there were pairs. Sometimes there were more than two of
each animal. And people say things like Jonah and the
whale doesn't say whale, says big fish, and different things,
different stories that you know, there was three wise men. No,
(09:20):
it doesn't say three wise men, says the magi. There
was three gifts. So the assumption is it's three, but
not necessarily. You know, people think about the image of
an angel and what an angel looks like or what
an angel has and the one pair of wings and
the harp and the singing, and you're not going to
(09:42):
find that in scripture. So there's things that get built
in throughout history or time and the assumption is this
is what scripture says or what have you. And there's
those types of misunderstandings and all in all, the important
thing to do in every case where you think that you.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Might just on one tiny little.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Point might be wrong, just take the time to research
and take the time to talk it out, Tom, Welcome
to the Jesus Christ Show. Hello, you've been so patient.
I recognize that you called last week as well, and
you did not get on. I'm so grateful that you are.
You are patient enough because your call was one that
(10:28):
touched me.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Well, keep what's going on.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
As the word says, keep seeking and keep knocking. I
was a pastor for twenty one years. Eighteen years ago,
though I committed adultery, I did leave the ministry. I repented,
I built bridges. I haven't pastored for eighteen years now.
(10:52):
I'm still with my dear wife of thirty eight years.
But now I have a chance to go back into
the pastorate. But something nagging at me because biblically am
I permanently disqualified? Or or do I have a chance
at restoration? Since for the overseer he is to be
(11:15):
blameless and above reproach. And so I am struggling with Biblically,
can I be a pastor again?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
There is nothing, there's nothing in scripture that grants that
wish as it were. I know you're looking for a
different answer, Tom, And the pastor and and and standing
before people in that context is one of great weight
(11:44):
and one that comes up obviously in scripture, as you
quote Uh and Timothy and Titus.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Chuckswindall.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
UH, well known author and pastor himself once said that
talking about this very issue, that it takes only one
pin to burst a balloon. And I know that the
world continually gets more relaxed with things and less offended
by things, and therefore they start to go, oh, well,
(12:18):
you know you should be more relaxed on this. And
I know you've seen a lot of TV preachers that
have fallen away or had situation then just get restored
right back, and really that all that does is make
Christianity more of a laughing stock. That doesn't mean that
there aren't things for you to do. There aren't wonderful
places for you to be in the church and things
that you can participate in. But it asks that of
(12:41):
Scripture specifically, because that's the mindset that a pastor has
to be in to be in that place being above reproach.
And it doesn't mean that you can't teach or there
aren't ways to teach. I'm gonna ask you to put
stay on hold, Tom because I want to talk to
you just after this quick uh, this quick break, but
(13:02):
I want to talk to you more about what that
means and some things that you may be able to
do that would fulfill that calling.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Tom, thanks for holding on.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Bumper music but brought me to my knees.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
That was.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Seemed to speak to my heart.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
That's that's why we have someone like Tony with us
to help orchestrate those moments as we go in and
out that emphasize with modern and older music as to
what's going on in people's lives. And right now, Tom,
you stand before your God as someone who has you
think of it this way, you're not being It's not punitive.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
When I when I.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Tell you that if you're a pastor and you fall
away from the standard of of leadership, the confused us
lies in Christians going, well, shouldn't we forgive?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
But this kind of earlsheibe one day paint job mentality
is great for a car, but not for restoring a
pastor to leadership. And that's become kind of the.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
The set pacing.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, if you give him a year off and we
kind of brush him up, get the dings out, repaint
them and put them back behind the pulpit, everything's going
to be fine. But I'll tell you something my producer
Neil I thought about ministry at one time.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Not a good enough guy. Knew it right out.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
He's just not a good enough guy, and and knew
that all it would do is bring problems to God.
And so if you're if you're going to stand before
God that way, Tom and lead people, you've you've got
to be in a different category and you've got to
be created for it.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Now.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Paul knew this.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Paul knew that if there were any problems, he would
be disqualified. Listen to his words in one Corinthians nine
twenty seven. He said, I disciplined my body. I discipline
my body and make it my slave, so that after
I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
(15:26):
And that's, you know, with the context of Paul, obviously,
that's dealing with sexual sin and the concern of that
being a problem. And you, you, in that moment when
you had that affair, you in that moment, said that
that woman, that orgasm, that sexual contact was more important
(15:49):
than your wife, than your own word and commitment, and
your God, you forfeit. You made the decision. You God
told you what the rules were, and you agreed to them,
(16:10):
and you forfeited that. I hope it was a great orgasm,
because that was that you forfeited, that, you gave that
up and you walked away from it. Now, that doesn't
mean God hates you. God still loves you. The Church
once loves you and wants you in the church. But
(16:34):
this kind of revolving door can be a problem, especially
to non believers, and believers just end up going oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
and they hear the teacher at the pulpit and they go, oh, well,
it's not a big deal, you know. And it's not
that you can't be human, but you got to be
above reproach. You've got to be standing above those things.
(16:59):
You have to be a good husband and a righteous man.
And that's the core problem.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
With the church.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Is that they look for dynamic speakers, good writers, somebody
who can publish books, someone who can sing well play guitar,
and that's and none of those things are mentioned in scripture,
none of them.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
And yet you gave Peter a second chance.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
It's not about second chances Peter. Peter denied in fear.
But Peter didn't, in that state of authority sleep with
someone sexual sin. You know this in scripture is set
(17:44):
apart and as a siner gets the body and that
and culturally that tends to kind of fall by the wayside.
You can look for excuses, Tom, Yeah, and you'll find
them in every nook and cranny of life. You will
find And I know that the assumption is, oh, well,
you know what, there's this this show they call it
(18:06):
Jesus Christ show. They've got to have liberal theology. No,
that is the That is the one reason why I'm
here is in hopes of one letting the legalists that
are just you know, trying to to crush the spirit
of Christianity know that I'm out there watching, and two
(18:28):
to let the those that are liberal in their theology
know that I'm out there watching.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Well, I always used to say, an excuse there's only
a skin of a reason wrapped in a lie. So
I'm not looking for any excuses.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
And that's a beautiful way to say it.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
You've got You've got your lovely wife who has been
who has been wonderful enough to forgive you through all
of this and to stand by you.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
You should be received into the body and uh, you
should participate in the church and enjoy the church. And
uh be brought back into fellowship, but not as a pastor.
There's nothing in scripture that's going to say that nothing.
And I know that's hard line, and I know people
will have problems with it, and people are going to say,
(19:13):
but I went through this and now I'm a But
it doesn't matter if you do that. In that moment,
you tell God, I want this instant, I want this romance,
I want this physical sensation. I want this more than
I want you. And this position that you called me
to you and you give it up, you had the
(19:35):
strength to not do it, and you chose not to.
There's a lot of sins you fall into in life
because they're around you in the way it is and
getting upset. I mean, if you were dealing with with
certain other attributes, it's not like you were gluttonous and
you've lost the weight. Now this is something specific, and
(20:01):
I know that that stinks and it's not what you
wanted to hear. But the reason why you should seek leadership,
the reason.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Why you should seek God.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Is because you respect it, because you're good at it,
you're comfortable doing it, or you liked it and you
received a lot from it. And people seem to like
when you say that's not it. I see these little,
these small little churches, Tom, with twenty families in them,
and the pastor doesn't speak that well, but boy he
(20:35):
loves God, and boy he knows scripture, and they're small
little churches. And then you get these slick churches, and
not all the large ones are slick, but you know
the difference. Slick churches with everything right and everything is
going smoothly, and they get massive and people think that
that's where God is because they're massive. Again, because I'm
(20:59):
gonna get emails people getting confused. I'm not saying that
a mega church or a very large churches is not
a church of God. I'm saying there's a difference. But
to just look at those appearances and say ones of
God because it's large, and ones not of God because
it's small. And all these different excuses people make about
what a pastor should.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Be and what shouldn't and all of these things.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
No Scripture says, and it's very specific, and you knew
that going into it, Tom, and you could quote it to.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Me today.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
And you said, for that moment, that time, however long
the affair lasted, that it didn't matter. You said, I
don't care, I want this and I want it now,
and you got it. Thank Heaven that your wife is
a godly woman who allowed you back into the marital
(21:51):
bed and in her life. You should count your blessings there.
And it doesn't mean that you can't write about your experiences,
that you can't use it to be a teaching tool.
That you'll never use any of your abilities for God
(22:11):
is a silly statement. But you can't do that anymore
because if you do that, as it says in scripture,
you crucify me twice. If you do that, you stand
and it doesn't show the glory of forgiveness. It shows
(22:33):
that nobody's watching the church and nobody cares. And it's
beyond just.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Being human.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
It was decisive, wouldn't you say, Tom, you made a
decision to do that. Yes, And aren't you man enough
both as a human and a Christian to receive those
consequences as they stand here on earth?
Speaker 3 (23:01):
I would hope.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
So, Well, then why.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Don't you move forward with that? An opportunity doesn't mean
it's a good one just because it exists. There are
Christians that ask the other Christians to do things all
the time. That may not be good for them. The
hope is that you have your own set of tools
for discernment and the ability to go Nope, this isn't
right for me, because you know, one Christian can say
(23:30):
you want to come over, I'm having a wine tasting
and it's not a problem for them, and it's not
a sin. Yet you're asking an alcoholic a Christian and
for them it would be a sin to participate in.
You can't slap the face of God on this one, Tom,
and I know that's not what you were looking for.
And you were so very brave and you know to
(23:54):
take the time and to call and to share those
things and to explain what you've gone through. But I
think that the church waivers far too much on certain things.
And as I said, you know, my producer Neil couldn't
live up to what it takes to be a pastor,
which is why he's not and why he's got to
(24:15):
participate in a show like this too, hopefully show his
own love for God. Susan, Welcome to the Jesus Christ Show.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
I just want to start by saying thank you very
much for your show. I really appreciate it and I
learn a lot from it, so I look forward to
it every week.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Oh, you're very nice, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Okay, I have a question. I have two parts to it.
I hope it doesn't seem too foolish, but I wonder
the Bible says we are wonderfully and fearfully made. I
wondered if there's any spiritual connection or significant to men
and beards. Okay, And I have two questions to questions
(25:06):
religious that Number one, why did God create men to
have beards? You know, he careered they were created that
way when all they do is shave it off. And
then the main reason is my son decided to go
a beard, and I just thought, like most guys, he
wanted to just give his face a rest from shaving
every day. But when I asked him, I was very
(25:29):
surprised to hear his answer. He said he did some
research on it, and in Bible times the only men
that were bare faced, as he says, were eunuchs and gays,
and so he said, I will never be bear faced again.
And I was thought very strange, And I was just
(25:49):
wondering if you had any any thoughts on that.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Not true on a lot of different levels. And there's
so much.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Unfortun we're not going to have time to get through
all of it, so I'll cut right to the chase.
That the reason why there's beards is because the bodies
are adaptable. The bodies are adaptive to their surroundings, and
body hair is part of that process. That's why you
get you know, what people call goose pimples or goosebumps
and the hair stands on it and stuff like that.
(26:21):
That is a reaction to the surrounding and your body
adapting to it. And the little hairs on your arms,
the hairs on your face are all there for protective
reasons for different parts or different things that were done.
That we're the roles of men and women. That's why
there's differences there. And you know, women may carry fatty
(26:41):
tissue in certain areas that men don't, et cetera. Some
people would say, well, that has to do with the
evolutionary process and all this. No, it's by design and
there's specifics to it and a biological specifics to it
that help with the individuals too. Esthetics that there are
aesthetic differences just like you see in nature, specifically for
(27:02):
the appearance of you know, if you see often the
male of the species often has the really colorful plumes,
and you think it would be the ladies, but not
necessarily true. And that's to attract a mate, and so
there's certain things about it being masculine and being distinct
from the female that becomes attractive. Doesn't mean that a
(27:24):
woman now likes a beard, but I will tell you
this that even women who like clean shaven men like
when a man has double sometimes and it gives that
look of relaxation and all these things. So there's aesthetic
things that go there. Scripturally, the reason why our Jewish
brothers and sisters would trim their beards, and now the
(27:48):
Orthodox Acidic Jews and the like will continue with this
process is because Leviticus nineteen twenty seven, specifically Leviticus nineteen
twenty seven talks about rounding the corners of your head,
so the beards and the sideburns were grown grown out,
and this part of the process of separating. The vitical
laws were there to separate from the pagans at the time,
(28:11):
and what the Pagans were doing, the our Jewish brothers
and sisters wouldn't be doing, so they would try and
separate themselves from the things that were going.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Going on in the day.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Now, some of the pagans might have and did practice
in certain things, whether it be homosexuality or what have you,
and so that may be where your son is kind
of turning this up. But really it's a it's a
it's a far stretch, and I'm not sure what your uh,
(28:46):
you know, what your son is protesting or what issues
he's going through that he feels the need to protest
his sexuality or his lack of a certain type of
sexuality or I'm not sure what's going on there or
what your son's going through. There might be that would
be a time for another discussion, is my guess. But
that's the biblical tie in and then biological tie in
(29:08):
and all of that, and I hope that that helps
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Kf I am six forty on demand
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