Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to KFI A M six forty on demand. Chris,
welcome to the Jesus Christ Show.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Yes, thank you for the call.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
So like pure Yes.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I mean, I've been struggling for a number of years now.
I was once a frequent hired scorer because of my
dear mother, and I've just changed over the last several years.
I have a profound issue and problem with the concept
of prayer. And I think of the millions of people
(00:41):
who were saying their prayers during the Holocaust they wouldn't
be done away with. I think of all the poor
souls lost in slavery that they said prayers incessantly and
they came to their awful demise. I think of all
the poor souls in Ukraine that pray the Putin wouldn't
come in, but he did, and their military committed atrocious acts.
(01:07):
And I just I've lost total faith and the whole
idea that the concept of faith, that that's what I
was talking about to your screen are very very quickly.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Was that something faith?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
To me? If you know an individual walk in the earth,
and you know them for a long time, you believe
in them, you have faith in them because you're aware
of them in the flesh and blood and the day
to day interactions, et cetera. But the concept of a
god having faith, You're having faith in something that you
cannot prove. These are the things that I struggle with
(01:53):
this last probably easy decade of my life. I'm almost
sixty eight, and I just have real issues with people
declaring that their God, whatever religion it is in Afghanistan
or America, or Germany or New Zealand or South America,
(02:14):
there's billions of people scattered across the planet, and everybody's
faith is just as important to them as the other
person's faith. And I've always thought, even long ago, that
nobody has a has a monopoly on the truth. These
are kinds of things that I struggle with. I'm not
(02:35):
looking for an argument or I'm really not. I'm just
I'm just truly unloading my guts, my soul on this show,
in this moment. I'm always wanted the call, and then
I took an opportunity to call, and I'm very gratefully
he took the call. But that's where I am. And
(02:55):
I'm not looking for I'm sincerely not looking for someone
to sway me. I'm you know, I'm just expressing my doubts,
my profound doubts, and that's where I lie. That that's
where I am in these years.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Well, you're not alone.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
As many people, Yeah, I can't be. There's billions of people.
My mother was a devout believer on on her on
her family's side. There are many, many, many. I have
a lot, a lot of folks on my mom's side
in San Antonio, Texas who who are devout believers, you know.
(03:43):
And and I've just I've I have strayed because I
you know, and the other concept of science, you know,
something like two thousand years ago, this supposedly happened. But
you know, what do you do with with the world
(04:03):
of science declaring that the Earth is four and a
half billion years old and there's billions of galaxies out
there and billions of universes and things of that nature,
you know, I don't, you know, I just don't think
anybody has a monopoly on the truth. And I don't
know when we're ever going to find out just where
(04:23):
a man? Can you know, where the creature of man
came from? I can't believe that there can't be other
life on some other celestial body. Scattered light years thousands
or hundreds of thousands of light ears away. You know,
I can't wrap my head around God has always been here,
like there's no beginning, normal contempt.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I'll be quiet. No, no, no, There's many things that you're saying,
and and I want you to say them. I think
they're important. But what about the universe? Do do you
think the universe is eternal?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Right? Because right? Because you pose the question. It's an
excellent question if I say, If I say no, then
you say, well, then what where does it stop? And
what is that stoppage? What is it? How can you
explain it?
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I don't need to argue for me. I'll speak for myself.
I'm sorry, no, go ahead, but you don't need to
argue for me. I don't speak for myself. So I
didn't say anything. I'm just curious because, uh something, it's
winding down. The law of entropy says it's winding down.
(05:47):
It's not winding up, it's winding down. That would imply
it's a closed system. So if it's a closed system,
and entropy so is saying that things are winding down.
You put something. If you put an apple on your
counter today, it doesn't become more complex, it breaks down,
(06:11):
it gets more simple. It rots right, that's entropy. So
if things are winding down and not up, then it's
a closed system that is dying. The universe is winding down.
(06:32):
So you've said a lot of things that I've heard before.
But there are things that don't make sense. I know
that to you, they make sense when you say them.
But for instance, you pointed out a bunch of bad
things that you think are bad, like war and people praying.
(06:55):
Why is war bad?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Because people are violated? You know, the bodies are torn asunder,
torn to pieces over.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Why is any of that.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Because you don't want yourself or your loved ones to
be torn to pieces?
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Okay? So selfishly, so selfishly you think it's bad because
you don't want it to happen. But you just said
that people have different beliefs and no one has a
corner on the truth. So if someone doesn't believe that's bad,
are you okay with that? Not religiously just because they don't.
(07:40):
They don't believe in your truth. They believe that survival
of the fittest evolution science and that they whoever they
can conquer, whatever they can destroy, is evolution. So why
is it when religious people have different views you say
that there is no truth because everybody has different views.
(08:02):
But you can't even tell me why death, torture, or
any of those things are bad. You have no there's
no ruler, there's no canon, no measuring rod for you
to say that that's just your point of view.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
I guess it all goes back to that old saying
about all politics is local, So all life and death
is local.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Okay. So Nazi Germany it was okay because locally they
said it was okay. Right again, how can you say
that what took place in Germany? You brought up the
Holocaust on me by the way, that that was wrong
because locally, all politics being locally your words, not mine,
(08:54):
being local, it was okay. How are who are you
to judge what they did there by your standards?
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I thought the standard on the right.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Standards? What standard? Where does that standard come from? Is
it decided by the people?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Right?
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Who is okay? It must be? So you cannot judge
outside of Nazi Germany what they did in Nazi Germany
because it was decided by the people. That's the equivalent
of you thinking that someone's in the wrong in another
country that has a different speed limit than you. Mm hmm.
(09:49):
I'm gonna hold that thought there. We're gonna come back
and we're gonna continue to talk, all right, Chris, because
I think you have some important things. But I can't
let you throw these things out and not answer them,
whether it's for you or not. If you don't want
to hear them, that's fine. I'm not giving you the argument,
But what I am is posing something for those listening
(10:12):
that do want to receive new truths or understanding. So
hang tight, Chris, and we'll come back and talk some more. Chris,
who waited through the break, he had a lot of
things to say, and I wanted to respond to some
of them. Chris. I know that you said you weren't
looking for an argument, nor am I actually, but I
(10:34):
will tell you this. There are two people that ask
questions or make statements, those that want to learn and
those that ask the questions with the hope of not learning.
And you don't strike me as the latter. So I
know you have frustrations, but my point to you, and
the reason why I ask you questions, is that your
(10:54):
view is no more better than anyone else's In your
world view. And I've said this many times on the program.
You can believe whatever you want, but if you can't
really live it, then then it doesn't matter. I mean,
people can think say things like there is no one truth,
(11:17):
and then why drink the orange juice in the morning
and not the gasoline. I'm sure as a man that
believes in science, you believe two plus two equals four,
and you wouldn't let anybody else tell you differently. So
there are some things that can be known, and unfortunately,
when it comes to the things that are spiritual, the
(11:39):
assumption is they can't be known, or there isn't things
that can be known, and that's not a fair statement.
And I don't want that to go out and not
be answered because I think many of the things you
said fall into the category of reasons that sound good
other than good sound reasoning, and I think they're emotive
(12:03):
and they come from a place of emotion and not
a place of reason. And I want to respond to
those in case someone's listening and thinks that my silence
and my desire to let you you know, vent that
my silence somehow means I agree with it, and I don't.
I think you have no place to stand to say
(12:23):
that something is evil or bad unless you tell me
what your measuring rod.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Is measuring rod. Yeah, that that statement, that challenge that
you had for me when you said it language in
my head when you said who am I to judge?
And I was, I was really trying to drill down
on that during the break, and I was, I was thinking,
(12:50):
you know, but well, it's where I all I can
go to is that s words. Well, I have my
standards and then you or I shouldn't speak for you
because you made a point. Yeah, it's not correct for
me to speak for you or anybody. But I have
my standards and and to to do the things that
(13:14):
people have done scattered across the planet for centuries to
other human beings. It's just, uh, it's just the total
opposite of you know, caring for one another.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Or loving or what is love? What is love? Chris?
You said yourself that you you can't if you can't
touch it, if it's not tangible, if it isn't real
or provable, it doesn't exist. You explained to me what
love is? Provable? Love? Is it something you can put
(13:50):
in a jar?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Excuse me, it can put.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
It in a jar. Can you put it in a box?
Can you hold it in your hands? Right, I'm going
to leave you with that thought for a second because
we're up against the clock again, but I'm going to
ask you to hold I think what you're asking is important.
I just think nobody has been around that could answer them,
and your assumption that they're correct because they haven't been
(14:15):
answered won't stand on this program. You're saying a lot
of things that are genuinely emotive and not intellectual, but
are packaged in an intellectual package, and I think they
deserve to be answered. So hang tight and we'll be
back again. We've held Chris over because he had a
(14:38):
lot to say, and I have a lot to say
as well. Chris, you have frustrations. Grew up in a
Catholic home. You obviously loved your mother and have given
her much praise. I would imagine she wasn't an idiot, right, No?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
No?
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Well yeah, okay, Well, I know you were talking about
all the different things that she believed and the faith
that she had, and I was hoping you didn't think
she was stupid for believing those things. You talked about
faith and faith is an interesting thing. It's not what
most people believe. There are things that are difficult to understand,
(15:25):
even in science. Okay, so let's, for instance, I go
back to math, because math is an absolute in people's
minds and it helps them see things. Mathematically, you can
split the width of a page, or the thickness more correctly,
(15:45):
the thickness of a page. Mathematically you can split over
and over and over again, because it's just a number.
So mathematically, Chris, you can have a book with an
infinite amount of page because any number of thickness can
be split, right, right, do you think there's such thing
(16:08):
as a that you could hold a book with an
infinite amount of pages in it? You can't. There's no
book with an infinite amount of pages. On math, you know,
on the board you can make it, but there's no
way to make it in physical, tangible experience because you've
(16:32):
got to have something that can cut it. Yeah, that thin,
you have to have something that can measure it. That
then all these different things that cause problems, but mathematically
it may you can make sense of it. There are
going to be things like that, okay. So faith. Faith
is what comes at the end of reason when you
can't reason anymore. And you have to trust a system.
(16:55):
There is just there is nothing that tells you you're
going to wake up tomorrow and gravity is going to
be there. The only thing that tells you that is
that it's been there for millions and millions of years.
So when it comes to understanding God, we talked about love.
Love is not You can't put wind in a jar
(17:17):
by itself, right, You don't know that wind's there unless
there's something that the wind is pushing. You don't see wind.
You see the tree moving, and you cannot see God
in the same tangible way that you want. And like
that book of an infinite amount of pages that works
(17:39):
on mathematically, it doesn't work tangibly that you have to
understand that faith comes. I have faith that there's wind
because the tree is moving, not because you see the wind,
saying you can't see wind, you only see the reaction
of things to the wind. And likewise you can't see
someone's faith, can't see God working in their life. Like
(18:04):
the wind by itself, you only see the fruits of it.
Now you get frustrated because the fruits aren't what you
expect or what you want. You want God like thanos
or something to snap their fingers and everything to be correct.
But there is nothing in your life. Everything, Chris, that
(18:25):
you think is good, nobility, courage, all of those things
exist because there is evil. A firefighter has courage because
things are burning down. Military law enforcement has courage, heroic
(18:50):
actions because there is evil in this world of which
they're fighting. You see one side of the coin. In
one side only, you say there is evil. Therefore there's
no God or there's no goodness. And my whole point
to you this whole time is that evil can't exist
(19:11):
unless you have an ultimate good in which you judge that.
Otherwise it's your opinion, and that means nothing more than
a murderer's opinion or anybody else's, because all you will
say is well, because it's wrong, or because it's ugly,
or it doesn't work in your worldview, which, like religion
(19:34):
you pointed out at the very beginning, means nothing because
other people have different beliefs. That doesn't mean that you
can't whittle beliefs out and say, no, you're wrong, that
belief doesn't make sense. And you think because something is
ancient or something's been believed for a long time, that
(19:55):
it's okay. There's different world religions, But you don't hang
your brain up. If you serve a god, it is
a god of reason. Reason is part of the human experience.
It is imperative. In Scripture, it says, test all things,
(20:16):
hold fast to that which is good and true.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Test everything you're good and true, you know is good
and true, her good and true. Scattered across the planet,
aren't there infinite examples? Differences are good and truth.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
And no, there's not. That's my point. There is a truth.
There is an absolute truth, and people don't want it
to be because they feel they're pushing their belief system
on someone. But when it comes to math, when it
comes to science, you're like, oh, that's the truth. Why
why what are you using Because even science changes. They
(20:58):
put the long head on the wrong body of bones,
and then all of a sudden, what you grew up
learning about the brontosaurus disappears. They say, Pluto is a planet,
then it's not a planet. Then it's a planet, then
it's not a planet. Does that mean that there is
no planets? No? Does that mean there's no dinosaurs? No?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
No. So I understand that I wanted to elaborate very
quickly because I know you're you're running out of time
with me, and I appreciate.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
The time that you've given me.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I wanted to desperately say when I'm when I'm like
angry about and and my consternation full tilt is as
I said sort of in the beginning, the concept of prayers, Trillions,
not billions, trillions of prayers have been have been offered up,
(21:54):
you know, to God, scattered through the centuries during diabolical
time in including recent you know, in the recent twenty
years or whatever. You could pick the calamities here and there,
and in my very very mortal, very humble opinion, to me,
it just doesn't seem like they were quote unquote answered.
(22:18):
You know, those hortill happen.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
But because you think the world here is the end all,
and it's not. This is not the best world, Chris.
This is the best way to the best possible world,
which is heaven. So yes, if you think by your
standard it's not being met, you're right, But your standard
is not God's standard. God is not about the planet.
(22:45):
This is a testing ground. This is a place for
you to learn, and there are things that are being taught.
God is not this cosmic bellhop that you can say
do this and he says, you got it. This is
a matter of God saying you are being taught something.
(23:06):
I won't give you patience, but I will push you
so patient is earned. I won't give you humility, but
I will allow you to be humiliated for you to
gain it. You assume wrong because you in your story
you are God. It's your definitions that stand. And God
(23:29):
is saying, Chris, I love you, but you are not
the standard I am, and everything that you even think
is perfection pales by my standard. Because this is not
the best world. And I appreciate your call. This is
the best way to the best world. Don't walk out
(23:51):
in the middle of the movie, Chris. It'll be a
very bad ending if you do. It's very easy to
look out and to judge God and to look out
the way things are working and saying this doesn't work
for me. Keep in mind that's what you're saying. You
(24:12):
can't say this doesn't work because you don't know why
this process is the best under the circumstances. Everything you
want in life that you think is good would destroy
free will would be to tell God stop everything bad.
(24:38):
That's not what prayer is for. Prayer is for God,
help me understand the purpose. What am I to learn
from this? Not stop it? If you do pray for
stop to stop something. If you do pray for health,
if you pray for any of these things, then if
it stops, the glory goes to God. But if it doesn't,
(25:03):
then there's something to be learned or understood by it.
And if God is going to take every gun on
the planet and put a feather in there at the
last moment, making the bullet disappear, then your free will
is gone. And for everything you think is worthy, everything
(25:25):
you think is good to remove. Once God starts removing
your free will, you'll go. But wait, I want to smoke.
If I want to smoke, I want to drink, If
I want to drink, I want to do these things.
And your free will is gone. And you know what
you are at that point, You're a robot. There is
no morality. There's no morality if you're forced to do good.
(25:50):
A murderer in a cell with no one else is
not morally better. Did not get better because they're no
longer murdering. They don't have an option to murder. It
is not morally better to not do something that you
can't do, you're incapable of doing. God knows that the
(26:12):
only way for true love to exist is the ability
to not love. And if you have the ability to
not love and the ability to choose ugliness and hate
and sin, then yes, there will be that in the world.
But you have to make a choice. If you want
(26:34):
to look at the one hundred and fifty thousand people
that die each day in the world, you can look
at that, or you can look at the three hundred
and sixty thousand people that are born each day. Either
see the miracle or you see the pain that is
up to you. Happy Easter, and remember, more important than
(26:57):
all of this, I will be with you always.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Kf I A M six forty on demand
Speaker 3 (27:08):
M
You're listening to KFI A M six forty on demand. Chris,
welcome to the Jesus Christ Show.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Yes, thank you for the call.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
So like pure Yes.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I mean, I've been struggling for a number of years now.
I was once a frequent hired scorer because of my
dear mother, and I've just changed over the last several years.
I have a profound issue and problem with the concept
of prayer. And I think of the millions of people
(00:41):
who were saying their prayers during the Holocaust they wouldn't
be done away with. I think of all the poor
souls lost in slavery that they said prayers incessantly and
they came to their awful demise. I think of all
the poor souls in Ukraine that pray the Putin wouldn't
come in, but he did, and their military committed atrocious acts.
(01:07):
And I just I've lost total faith and the whole
idea that the concept of faith, that that's what I
was talking about to your screen are very very quickly.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Was that something faith?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
To me? If you know an individual walk in the earth,
and you know them for a long time, you believe
in them, you have faith in them because you're aware
of them in the flesh and blood and the day
to day interactions, et cetera. But the concept of a
god having faith, You're having faith in something that you
cannot prove. These are the things that I struggle with
(01:53):
this last probably easy decade of my life. I'm almost
sixty eight, and I just have real issues with people
declaring that their God, whatever religion it is in Afghanistan
or America, or Germany or New Zealand or South America,
(02:14):
there's billions of people scattered across the planet, and everybody's
faith is just as important to them as the other
person's faith. And I've always thought, even long ago, that
nobody has a has a monopoly on the truth. These
are kinds of things that I struggle with. I'm not
(02:35):
looking for an argument or I'm really not. I'm just
I'm just truly unloading my guts, my soul on this show,
in this moment. I'm always wanted the call, and then
I took an opportunity to call, and I'm very gratefully
he took the call. But that's where I am. And
(02:55):
I'm not looking for I'm sincerely not looking for someone
to sway me. I'm you know, I'm just expressing my doubts,
my profound doubts, and that's where I lie. That that's
where I am in these years.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Well, you're not alone.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
As many people, Yeah, I can't be. There's billions of people.
My mother was a devout believer on on her on
her family's side. There are many, many, many. I have
a lot, a lot of folks on my mom's side
in San Antonio, Texas who who are devout believers, you know.
(03:43):
And and I've just I've I have strayed because I
you know, and the other concept of science, you know,
something like two thousand years ago, this supposedly happened. But
you know, what do you do with with the world
(04:03):
of science declaring that the Earth is four and a
half billion years old and there's billions of galaxies out
there and billions of universes and things of that nature,
you know, I don't, you know, I just don't think
anybody has a monopoly on the truth. And I don't
know when we're ever going to find out just where
(04:23):
a man? Can you know, where the creature of man
came from? I can't believe that there can't be other
life on some other celestial body. Scattered light years thousands
or hundreds of thousands of light ears away. You know,
I can't wrap my head around God has always been here,
like there's no beginning, normal contempt.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I'll be quiet. No, no, no, There's many things that you're saying,
and and I want you to say them. I think
they're important. But what about the universe? Do do you
think the universe is eternal?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Right? Because right? Because you pose the question. It's an
excellent question if I say, If I say no, then
you say, well, then what where does it stop? And
what is that stoppage? What is it? How can you
explain it?
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I don't need to argue for me. I'll speak for myself.
I'm sorry, no, go ahead, but you don't need to
argue for me. I don't speak for myself. So I
didn't say anything. I'm just curious because, uh something, it's
winding down. The law of entropy says it's winding down.
(05:47):
It's not winding up, it's winding down. That would imply
it's a closed system. So if it's a closed system,
and entropy so is saying that things are winding down.
You put something. If you put an apple on your
counter today, it doesn't become more complex, it breaks down,
(06:11):
it gets more simple. It rots right, that's entropy. So
if things are winding down and not up, then it's
a closed system that is dying. The universe is winding down.
(06:32):
So you've said a lot of things that I've heard before.
But there are things that don't make sense. I know
that to you, they make sense when you say them.
But for instance, you pointed out a bunch of bad
things that you think are bad, like war and people praying.
(06:55):
Why is war bad?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Because people are violated? You know, the bodies are torn asunder,
torn to pieces over.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Why is any of that.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Because you don't want yourself or your loved ones to
be torn to pieces?
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Okay? So selfishly, so selfishly you think it's bad because
you don't want it to happen. But you just said
that people have different beliefs and no one has a
corner on the truth. So if someone doesn't believe that's bad,
are you okay with that? Not religiously just because they don't.
(07:40):
They don't believe in your truth. They believe that survival
of the fittest evolution science and that they whoever they
can conquer, whatever they can destroy, is evolution. So why
is it when religious people have different views you say
that there is no truth because everybody has different views.
(08:02):
But you can't even tell me why death, torture, or
any of those things are bad. You have no there's
no ruler, there's no canon, no measuring rod for you
to say that that's just your point of view.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
I guess it all goes back to that old saying
about all politics is local, So all life and death
is local.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Okay. So Nazi Germany it was okay because locally they
said it was okay. Right again, how can you say
that what took place in Germany? You brought up the
Holocaust on me by the way, that that was wrong
because locally, all politics being locally your words, not mine,
(08:54):
being local, it was okay. How are who are you
to judge what they did there by your standards?
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I thought the standard on the right.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Standards? What standard? Where does that standard come from? Is
it decided by the people?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Right?
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Who is okay? It must be? So you cannot judge
outside of Nazi Germany what they did in Nazi Germany
because it was decided by the people. That's the equivalent
of you thinking that someone's in the wrong in another
country that has a different speed limit than you. Mm hmm.
(09:49):
I'm gonna hold that thought there. We're gonna come back
and we're gonna continue to talk, all right, Chris, because
I think you have some important things. But I can't
let you throw these things out and not answer them,
whether it's for you or not. If you don't want
to hear them, that's fine. I'm not giving you the argument,
But what I am is posing something for those listening
(10:12):
that do want to receive new truths or understanding. So
hang tight, Chris, and we'll come back and talk some more. Chris,
who waited through the break, he had a lot of
things to say, and I wanted to respond to some
of them. Chris. I know that you said you weren't
looking for an argument, nor am I actually, but I
(10:34):
will tell you this. There are two people that ask
questions or make statements, those that want to learn and
those that ask the questions with the hope of not learning.
And you don't strike me as the latter. So I
know you have frustrations, but my point to you, and
the reason why I ask you questions, is that your
(10:54):
view is no more better than anyone else's In your
world view. And I've said this many times on the program.
You can believe whatever you want, but if you can't
really live it, then then it doesn't matter. I mean,
people can think say things like there is no one truth,
(11:17):
and then why drink the orange juice in the morning
and not the gasoline. I'm sure as a man that
believes in science, you believe two plus two equals four,
and you wouldn't let anybody else tell you differently. So
there are some things that can be known, and unfortunately,
when it comes to the things that are spiritual, the
(11:39):
assumption is they can't be known, or there isn't things
that can be known, and that's not a fair statement.
And I don't want that to go out and not
be answered because I think many of the things you
said fall into the category of reasons that sound good
other than good sound reasoning, and I think they're emotive
(12:03):
and they come from a place of emotion and not
a place of reason. And I want to respond to
those in case someone's listening and thinks that my silence
and my desire to let you you know, vent that
my silence somehow means I agree with it, and I don't.
I think you have no place to stand to say
(12:23):
that something is evil or bad unless you tell me
what your measuring rod.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Is measuring rod. Yeah, that that statement, that challenge that
you had for me when you said it language in
my head when you said who am I to judge?
And I was, I was really trying to drill down
on that during the break, and I was, I was thinking,
(12:50):
you know, but well, it's where I all I can
go to is that s words. Well, I have my
standards and then you or I shouldn't speak for you
because you made a point. Yeah, it's not correct for
me to speak for you or anybody. But I have
my standards and and to to do the things that
(13:14):
people have done scattered across the planet for centuries to
other human beings. It's just, uh, it's just the total
opposite of you know, caring for one another.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Or loving or what is love? What is love? Chris?
You said yourself that you you can't if you can't
touch it, if it's not tangible, if it isn't real
or provable, it doesn't exist. You explained to me what
love is? Provable? Love? Is it something you can put
(13:50):
in a jar?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Excuse me, it can put.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
It in a jar. Can you put it in a box?
Can you hold it in your hands? Right, I'm going
to leave you with that thought for a second because
we're up against the clock again, but I'm going to
ask you to hold I think what you're asking is important.
I just think nobody has been around that could answer them,
and your assumption that they're correct because they haven't been
(14:15):
answered won't stand on this program. You're saying a lot
of things that are genuinely emotive and not intellectual, but
are packaged in an intellectual package, and I think they
deserve to be answered. So hang tight and we'll be
back again. We've held Chris over because he had a
(14:38):
lot to say, and I have a lot to say
as well. Chris, you have frustrations. Grew up in a
Catholic home. You obviously loved your mother and have given
her much praise. I would imagine she wasn't an idiot, right, No?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
No?
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Well yeah, okay, Well, I know you were talking about
all the different things that she believed and the faith
that she had, and I was hoping you didn't think
she was stupid for believing those things. You talked about
faith and faith is an interesting thing. It's not what
most people believe. There are things that are difficult to understand,
(15:25):
even in science. Okay, so let's, for instance, I go
back to math, because math is an absolute in people's
minds and it helps them see things. Mathematically, you can
split the width of a page, or the thickness more correctly,
(15:45):
the thickness of a page. Mathematically you can split over
and over and over again, because it's just a number.
So mathematically, Chris, you can have a book with an
infinite amount of page because any number of thickness can
be split, right, right, do you think there's such thing
(16:08):
as a that you could hold a book with an
infinite amount of pages in it? You can't. There's no
book with an infinite amount of pages. On math, you know,
on the board you can make it, but there's no
way to make it in physical, tangible experience because you've
(16:32):
got to have something that can cut it. Yeah, that thin,
you have to have something that can measure it. That
then all these different things that cause problems, but mathematically
it may you can make sense of it. There are
going to be things like that, okay. So faith. Faith
is what comes at the end of reason when you
can't reason anymore. And you have to trust a system.
(16:55):
There is just there is nothing that tells you you're
going to wake up tomorrow and gravity is going to
be there. The only thing that tells you that is
that it's been there for millions and millions of years.
So when it comes to understanding God, we talked about love.
Love is not You can't put wind in a jar
(17:17):
by itself, right, You don't know that wind's there unless
there's something that the wind is pushing. You don't see wind.
You see the tree moving, and you cannot see God
in the same tangible way that you want. And like
that book of an infinite amount of pages that works
(17:39):
on mathematically, it doesn't work tangibly that you have to
understand that faith comes. I have faith that there's wind
because the tree is moving, not because you see the wind,
saying you can't see wind, you only see the reaction
of things to the wind. And likewise you can't see
someone's faith, can't see God working in their life. Like
(18:04):
the wind by itself, you only see the fruits of it.
Now you get frustrated because the fruits aren't what you
expect or what you want. You want God like thanos
or something to snap their fingers and everything to be correct.
But there is nothing in your life. Everything, Chris, that
(18:25):
you think is good, nobility, courage, all of those things
exist because there is evil. A firefighter has courage because
things are burning down. Military law enforcement has courage, heroic
(18:50):
actions because there is evil in this world of which
they're fighting. You see one side of the coin. In
one side only, you say there is evil. Therefore there's
no God or there's no goodness. And my whole point
to you this whole time is that evil can't exist
(19:11):
unless you have an ultimate good in which you judge that.
Otherwise it's your opinion, and that means nothing more than
a murderer's opinion or anybody else's, because all you will
say is well, because it's wrong, or because it's ugly,
or it doesn't work in your worldview, which, like religion
(19:34):
you pointed out at the very beginning, means nothing because
other people have different beliefs. That doesn't mean that you
can't whittle beliefs out and say, no, you're wrong, that
belief doesn't make sense. And you think because something is
ancient or something's been believed for a long time, that
(19:55):
it's okay. There's different world religions, But you don't hang
your brain up. If you serve a god, it is
a god of reason. Reason is part of the human experience.
It is imperative. In Scripture, it says, test all things,
(20:16):
hold fast to that which is good and true.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Test everything you're good and true, you know is good
and true, her good and true. Scattered across the planet,
aren't there infinite examples? Differences are good and truth.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
And no, there's not. That's my point. There is a truth.
There is an absolute truth, and people don't want it
to be because they feel they're pushing their belief system
on someone. But when it comes to math, when it
comes to science, you're like, oh, that's the truth. Why
why what are you using Because even science changes. They
(20:58):
put the long head on the wrong body of bones,
and then all of a sudden, what you grew up
learning about the brontosaurus disappears. They say, Pluto is a planet,
then it's not a planet. Then it's a planet, then
it's not a planet. Does that mean that there is
no planets? No? Does that mean there's no dinosaurs? No?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
No. So I understand that I wanted to elaborate very
quickly because I know you're you're running out of time
with me, and I appreciate.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
The time that you've given me.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I wanted to desperately say when I'm when I'm like
angry about and and my consternation full tilt is as
I said sort of in the beginning, the concept of prayers, Trillions,
not billions, trillions of prayers have been have been offered up,
(21:54):
you know, to God, scattered through the centuries during diabolical
time in including recent you know, in the recent twenty
years or whatever. You could pick the calamities here and there,
and in my very very mortal, very humble opinion, to me,
it just doesn't seem like they were quote unquote answered.
(22:18):
You know, those hortill happen.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
But because you think the world here is the end all,
and it's not. This is not the best world, Chris.
This is the best way to the best possible world,
which is heaven. So yes, if you think by your
standard it's not being met, you're right, But your standard
is not God's standard. God is not about the planet.
(22:45):
This is a testing ground. This is a place for
you to learn, and there are things that are being taught.
God is not this cosmic bellhop that you can say
do this and he says, you got it. This is
a matter of God saying you are being taught something.
(23:06):
I won't give you patience, but I will push you
so patient is earned. I won't give you humility, but
I will allow you to be humiliated for you to
gain it. You assume wrong because you in your story
you are God. It's your definitions that stand. And God
(23:29):
is saying, Chris, I love you, but you are not
the standard I am, and everything that you even think
is perfection pales by my standard. Because this is not
the best world. And I appreciate your call. This is
the best way to the best world. Don't walk out
(23:51):
in the middle of the movie, Chris. It'll be a
very bad ending if you do. It's very easy to
look out and to judge God and to look out
the way things are working and saying this doesn't work
for me. Keep in mind that's what you're saying. You
(24:12):
can't say this doesn't work because you don't know why
this process is the best under the circumstances. Everything you
want in life that you think is good would destroy
free will would be to tell God stop everything bad.
(24:38):
That's not what prayer is for. Prayer is for God,
help me understand the purpose. What am I to learn
from this? Not stop it? If you do pray for
stop to stop something. If you do pray for health,
if you pray for any of these things, then if
it stops, the glory goes to God. But if it doesn't,
(25:03):
then there's something to be learned or understood by it.
And if God is going to take every gun on
the planet and put a feather in there at the
last moment, making the bullet disappear, then your free will
is gone. And for everything you think is worthy, everything
(25:25):
you think is good to remove. Once God starts removing
your free will, you'll go. But wait, I want to smoke.
If I want to smoke, I want to drink, If
I want to drink, I want to do these things.
And your free will is gone. And you know what
you are at that point, You're a robot. There is
no morality. There's no morality if you're forced to do good.
(25:50):
A murderer in a cell with no one else is
not morally better. Did not get better because they're no
longer murdering. They don't have an option to murder. It
is not morally better to not do something that you
can't do, you're incapable of doing. God knows that the
(26:12):
only way for true love to exist is the ability
to not love. And if you have the ability to
not love and the ability to choose ugliness and hate
and sin, then yes, there will be that in the world.
But you have to make a choice. If you want
(26:34):
to look at the one hundred and fifty thousand people
that die each day in the world, you can look
at that, or you can look at the three hundred
and sixty thousand people that are born each day. Either
see the miracle or you see the pain that is
up to you. Happy Easter, and remember, more important than
(26:57):
all of this, I will be with you always.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Kf I A M six forty on demand
Speaker 3 (27:08):
M
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