July 7, 2025 • 18 mins
Dr. Timothy Fong is a Professor of Psychiatry at the Jane and Terry Semel Institute for Neuroscience and Human Behavior at UCLA. He is board certified in adult and addiction psychiatry.
Dr. Fong is also a member of the Steering Committee of the UCLA Center for Cannabis and
Cannabinoids whose mission is to address the most pressing questions related to the impact of
cannabis legalization through rigorous scientific study and discourse across disciplines.
Take a listen to his take on usage.
Dr. Fong is also a member of the Steering Committee of the UCLA Center for Cannabis and
Cannabinoids whose mission is to address the most pressing questions related to the impact of
cannabis legalization through rigorous scientific study and discourse across disciplines.
Take a listen to his take on usage.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Doctor Wendywall Show on KFI AM
six forty live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. Now, I
promised you a very special guest. This is a guest
who I was begging, begging to come into the studio
because he is a wealth of knowledge. And sit back
because some of the facts he's going to tell you
(00:20):
might actually be completely opposite of what you believe. I'm
talking about cannabis use. Look, we know that marijuana has
been used by humans for thousands and thousands of years,
both medicinally recreationally. But we also know in the last
few decades here in America, attitudes have shifted a lot.
(00:45):
Right we had at one point complete prohibition. I actually
knew somebody, poor guy who spent nine months in prison
for being caught with a little bit of marijuana. And
now look, it's on every street corner, in a shop,
in a legal shop. Right now. I also want to
say that my next guest is going to tell us
(01:06):
that there's a big gap between our ideas, our perceptions
about marijuana use, and the real science because our perceptions
are influenced by the companies that want to make a
book and the government that wants to make some tax money.
My guest is doctor Timothy Fong. He is a professor
of Psychiatry at for Human Behavior at UCLA. He's a
(01:30):
Board certified Adult and addiction psychiatry specialist, co director actually
of the UCLA Gambling Studies Program. Oh that's another thing.
We should talk about gambling sometime. But I like to
say when I introduce him, he is the guy in
LA when it comes to knowing the science about marijuana. Welcome,
doctor Pong. It's a pleasure to have you here.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
It is absolutely my pleasure to be here. Doctor Walt Wendy,
thank you for having me here in studio.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, it's wonderful. And I understand you're a KFI listener.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I love KFI and when it came to Usile Psychiatric
Residency in nineteen ninety eight, one of the first shows
I started listening to was Handled, big giant billboards everywhere.
It's only been twenty seven years i've been listened to KFI.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
We love our Handle. He's a great guy. So I
was listening to some videos on lectures that you did,
and you talk about our current marijuana use as this
growing public health crisis. Can you talk a little.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Bit about that well shirt, certainly. And again, if you
rewind where we were twenty years ago, think about La
There was no above board cannabis dispensary, there were no billboards.
People didn't talk about. It was in the shadows. Right
fast forward to twenty twenty five. Right now in our
stay we have about thirty five hundred cannabis dispensaries that
legally sell cannabis. We have a massive amount of unregulated
(02:51):
and unrestricted cannabis as well.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
That's the word I want to talk about. Unregulated. Is
the stuff in the stores regulated at all? Do we
know if what they say is in it is the
stuff that's in it?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Oh? Absolutely, So you go back to when we first
did this November twenty sixteen, it's been nine years since
our state has legalized cannabis used for adults towenty one
and old Streuss that, Yeah, they did stress that. And
so what we then have created is a very strange
California market right where on one hand, the above board
dispensaries that are doing it by the book, licenses, regulations,
(03:25):
policies and procedures that are protecting our health are selling products.
It's really sophisticated and safe. On the other hand, there
are a lot of brick and mortar dispensaries that are
not regulated, or they're doing delivery services and they're giving
things to the public that they think are safe but
actually are not fully and wholly tested. So nine years
(03:47):
we've created a very very tight California regulatory policy, and
you can imagine when you put a lot of rules
in place, there're gonna be some folks that don't follow it.
So that's why there's this weird split between Yes, things
that are on the shelves and regulated above boards, trusted
dispensaries are exactly what they say they are, versus things
that are in unregular dispensaries or things that are delivered.
(04:09):
And certainly things are handed to you by a friend
or a family matewner or an aunt or an uncle,
maybe at a July fourth barbecue.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
And someone told me the little bit of hot that
we smoked on back in college in the seventies and
eighties is not the same as the product that's around today.
Is today supposed to be stronger?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Oh absolutely, And that's one of the first myths that
we hear all the time. It's just weed, it's mother nature. Well,
it's very different than in the eighties or nineties, whereas
about on average about four percent THHC content. Now that
percentage is about twenty five thirty percent THHC that are
quote seized by officials. But we have products on the
(04:47):
shelves cannabis dispensaries that can go as high as seventy
eighty ninety percent THHD concentration. So it's a different product.
So imagine you know, again, you were born fifteen years
ago and now you're growing in to a world where
you only know high concentrated, high potency cannabis, right, and
the message to you as a young person says, hey,
(05:08):
it's just weed. I did it.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Do you know how many times I hear this? You know,
I teach health psychology at cal State Channel Islands, and
whenever I do my little addiction lecture, how many students
put up their hands. Only weed or just weed are
what I hear all the time. And they just think
it's harmless. Right, So that is myth number one, myth
number two. And they also say this, oh, thank goodness,
it's weed because nobody's going to overdose from it, right,
(05:33):
is it possible?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Well, again, the myth about why Is it harmless? Is
number one. You know, cannabis intoxication can be dangerous in
the sense that's some folks for the very first time
they use cannabis develop psychosis or nausea or impulsivity or aggression, right,
So that's part of it. Number Two, although it's very
rare to die from an overdose of cannabis, you can
(05:55):
die while intoxicated car accidents, falling off a route. In fact,
one of the byproducts of increased legalizations. That's in the
number of calls of poison control related to cannabis, right,
And even like babies and toddlers and things. But again,
I don't want to be the oh my gosh, this
guy's falling kind of thing. But these are just the
scientific facts. The second part about is why is it
(06:16):
not harmless? Again, is just straight addiction. When you develop
a cannabis use disorder or an addiction, it really significantly
damages your life.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
So there's this perception though that it's not addictive.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Oh, it absolutely is. And again pound for pound, if
you say opioids, heroin, fentanyl, cocaine, yes, there's a quote
more addictive if you look at say broccoli or kale, though,
or quinoa, you know, other Mother Nature's plants. They're much
less addictive than cannabis. This is about a nine percent
chance of developing addiction from the very first time you
(06:48):
use cannabis. Which is why we stress so importantly that
this is a product for adults. This is a product
that's meant to be used when your brain and your
body are ready for it. That means twenty one and up.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
And here's the big question. This myth out there that
there are no withdrawal symptoms that you can just quit.
And you use the word in one of your lectures, tapering,
just tapering off. How possible is that.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So in twenty thirteen, when we diagnose cannabis withdrawal as
an actual medical condition, there was controversy. Well, people say, well,
you don't die from withdrawal, But for anyone out there
who's gone through cannabis withdrawal, it is a It is suffering.
It's like the flu. You can't eat right, you can't
think straight, you can't function. So it creates a lot
(07:32):
of just damage, a lot of suffering that's unnecessary. So
and when the strength of the cannabis is much stronger,
you can develop withdrawal symptoms. Much quicker, literally within about
seven to ten days of using on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Wow. My guest doctor Timothy Fong from UCLA, he's the
go to person when it comes to cannabis research and knowledge.
Doctor Pong, let's talk about this medical marijuana that everyone
seems to say is but we need it? It's such
a good treatment. Is marijuana good to treat anything?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
We're trying to find out, and you think about our
history in California. We were one of the first states
that created medical cannabis, and back in twenty seventeen when
we started our Ucile Center for Cannabis and Cannabinoids, we're
really excited to find out how can we use cannabis
in a way that helps people and it helps get
rid of suffering. There's no doubt in my mind and
the hands of the right properly trained physicians that cannabis
(08:27):
probably could be a useful product. But we're not there yet.
We're not there yet, and so the science falls much
farther behind. We have actually a really interesting study looking
at just recently, when medical cannabis is used by doctors
that are trained in it, that see the patients properly,
that do it right that patients do get better. However,
(08:48):
that's the vast majority of doctors aren't trained in how
to use medical cannabis.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
But we're talking to treat things like you know, nausea
from chemotherapy, right, or maybe if you're wasting from a
disorder where you're getting too skinny and you can't eat,
that's right, sleep disorders perhaps, or PTS.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I actually know, and that's the myth, right, So our
science tells us, yes, it's effective for pain, it's effective
for chemotherapy to induce nausea and vomiting, and for muscle
spasticity from multiple sclerosis. Now all that other stuff you
hear about for insomnia, anxiety, PTSD, hangnails, growing hair, sexual reality,
(09:25):
the scientific studies don't bear that out.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
And depression and anxiety it actually increases, right, it.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Makes things worse. And so that's a real fascinating area.
And I really wish we could say with confidence that
our medical field has moved in the last twenty five
years to say that, yes, this product of medical cannabis
is really effective for X. Unfortunately we're not there yet.
And two things I see the number one oftenize patients
then say, oh, I'm not going to use the standard treatments.
(09:51):
I'm going to go straight to medical cannabis. And then
number two they do it on their own. You know,
this isn't a DIY kind of thing. You know, this
is a very very powerful plant with a lot of
potential effects, both positive and negative. So all folks out there, again,
it is the idea that we all want to reach
for something quick and easy and affordable that makes our
(10:11):
lives better. But unfortunately, if you're going to do that,
you have to do it under the supervision of a
physician that has experienced in using medical cannabis. Again, if
I said, hey, you know, go see a doctor, he
or she has signed off on a form and then
he won't tell you what to do, and you're supposed
to go pick out the product in the shelves, take
as much as you want or as little as you want,
(10:32):
and if you have problems, don't call that doctor back.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Well, that's not that's not how it works. How it works,
So let us talk about treatment. First of all, I
read somewhere that you're estimating that two percent of the
American population suffers from cannabis use disorder.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
That number globally is probably higher. Now that we've seen
expansion of cannabis in at least forty eight or twenty
four states and forty eight medical cannabis states. It's probably
almost up to like three or four percent of the
general popula.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I read somewhere that four percent of twelve to seventeen
year olds. Twelve to seventeen year olds.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, and stats are hard, I think. The way I
think about it this is very simple. A look, this
is a new generation gen Z, gen Y, whatever you
wanna call Generation Alpha, who are growing into a world
where cannabis use is accepted, normalized, permissible, and in some
ways promoted, very much promoted, versus again, a world where
the cannabis products are using and how they're using it
(11:25):
we now know scientifically not great for them. More kids
right are not smoking, they're vaping, vaping, and the biggest
concern amo our young kids using those vaping products a
lot more potency, a lot more chemicals. But there's also
use of a lot more synthetic cannabinoids. So these are
the delta THC eight, the THHCA, the delta TC ten.
(11:47):
These are human made products from like hemp. They're not
the naturally grown flowers. So it's just another synthetic compound
that unfortunately young kids are getting into much more popular.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
All right, so let's say somebody wants to quit, how
do they do it?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
So Number one, if you want to quit, really seeking
professional help. Again, this is not a DIY project. And
there's a lot a shame stigma and oh my gosh,
you're addicted, paw, you're adicted marijuana. How could that be? No,
if you're going to do it, do it in the
hands of professional a physician, a psychologist, and somebody.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Who specializes in addiction. Not just your primary care no, I.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Mean primary care. Many primary care doctors are starting to
see this all the time, emergency room docs, anyone who
has experienced with cannabis and health and behavioral health and
who's really well connected. And we say in our addiction field,
it takes a village, you know, to really get people better.
It's not just me, you know, seeing new ones for
every thirty minutes, like you know, you know, once a month.
So getting professional help is step one. I think get
(12:45):
incredible information online is really probably step zero. And a
lot of folks who are doing that are like, well,
they just google cannabis addiction treatmentabis withdrawal, and you get
literally millions of hits. And I think it starts with
getting incredible information like from our state California Department of
Public Health has a lot of really great information, or
the National Institute on Drug Abuse, or our own website
(13:06):
at the Cannabis Center that we have at Cannabis dot
SEMO dot UCLA dot edu.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
And I didn't calling around for a friend. And most insurance,
private health insurance does not cover marijuana detox, does it? Well,
they all say it's not medically necessary.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Right. They won't cover it in a quote hospital based
setting or a residential setting because I'll say, oh, this
person doesn't need to be in a contained environment. They'll
cover a lot of outpatient visits and maybe the intensive
outpatient program, but when people need full containment, probably not.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
So is there any medication that people can take to
help them through the withdrawal?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Well, right now July twenty twenty five, we do not
have an FDA proved medication for cannabis use disorder or
cannabis withdrawal. However, we have some stuff in the research
toolbox that kind of works that does help. And again,
just think about going through withdrawal. You stop cannabis tonight Sunday,
right after July fourth weekend. You might not have withdrawal
(14:04):
symptoms until Wednesday or next Friday, and you might be
able to realize that what you're going through is withdrawal.
So usually for a lot of folks, the first thing
is recognized that the symptoms that they're having are withdrawal,
and then we give comfort medications, we hydration, you know,
we do things that take away the symptoms of withdrawal
that are really difficult, like the nausea, the vomiting, and
(14:25):
the inability to eat or sleep, just the feeling queasy.
Those are the things that we do right away.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I actually read somewhere that there's some chronic cannabis use
can cause people to lose a lot of We always
think of getting the munchies and eating a lot when
you're high, right, but something goes on with your intestines
with chronic use.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
For some folks that can. I mean, we see intoxicated
case and cannabis hyper emebasis syndrome, or they're constantly vomiting
so much. We see I've had a number of patients
which just taken on a daily basis and caught that
vicious cycle where they usually get rid of the nausea
and vomiting, and they use too much and then the
BIP product, the side effect of using is what more
nogical vomiting. So again we don't want to be the
(15:05):
fear mongering at all, which is these are just some
things that happen out there. For the vast majority of people,
they don't experience these horrible things, but they can happen.
And I think for people to realize it's not just
you know, not just weed anymore. It's all sorts of
things that can happen.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
But we need to be having this conversation because we
are counteracting the kind of messaging out there, the myths
out there given by the producers of this drug and
maybe even you know, people that want to collect tax
money or sell it, et cetera. If left untreated. What
is the most common progression of cannabis use disorder is
(15:41):
a gateway drug?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
No, well, we have old school term. We don't use
gateway drugs anymore. No, I go back. It was really
interesting to me is that when I first got into it,
what I didn't realize is that untreated addiction leads to death.
It's as simple as that. And this is probably the
most shocking thing that I think listeners will hear about
that cannabis use disorder is associated with a higher rate
of morbidity and mortality. People die suicides, unintentional drug overdoses
(16:07):
on other stuff that they're not they didn't they're not
aware of that are in their cannabis. Other co occurring
mental health and medical conditions that are not treated again
untreated depression, untreated anxiety, untreated PTSD. These are things that
if people are using cannabis to treat, that actually make
it worse and subsequently could actually shorten their life. Lung
cancer there's another one that sometimes we see, and right
(16:29):
before the pandemic. I don't know if people remember twenty nineteen,
but there were about eighty deaths in America from electronic
vaping associated lunges.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
The mysterious vaping disease. Remember that we're trying to warn
our teenagers.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
All right, you remember that you probably did some content
on that in twenty nineteen. You know, those are all deaths.
So I think that's the thing people get shocked at
when they think, oh my gosh, there's increased death from
cannabis addiction, and the best way to prevent addiction, of course,
is obviously not to use on a daily basis, but
also to weight waiting. Your body and brain are fully
(17:02):
developed to begin to use it as an adult, right.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
So it's definitely not for kids, definitely not for teenagers.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yeah. And you know, I had one quick story. I
had a number of social workers. I said, you know,
when the kids using and the parents know they're using,
isn't that something we need to call Department of Family
Childcare Services? And I've never had a social worker. Well,
no one's going to take a kid away for giving
them cannabis. Said, but isn't the law twenty one and over? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So, I I mean, if you, as a parent drive
drunk with a kid in the car seat, you can
lose your kid for that. So if you're giving your
kid a drug, or allowing them to use in front of.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
You, if you're allowing them to use an edible, allowing
them to have a vap pen, and a lot of
parents don't even know, unfortunately, that the kid is using
cannabis because they don't smell it, right, edible, Yeah, the edibles,
the vate pens, the drinks, all these things are very
very different.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Doctor Timothy Fong I know this sounds like bad news,
but it's going to help lots and lots of people
to hear it. And it is just my pleasure to
have you here in the studio with us. As your
research breaks, as you continue to come up with new breakthroughs,
please keep in touch with us so that we can
make sure that the public gets this information that they need.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Absolutely, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I'm happy to have you here. You and that brings
a Doctor Wendywall Show to a close. Uh. If you
want to follow me on a social media you may.
The handle is at doctor Wendy Walsh. But I'm always
here for you. Every Sunday night from seven to nine,
you've been listening to the Doctor Wendywall Show on KFI
AM six forty live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Welcome back to the Doctor Wendywall Show on KFI AM
six forty live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. Now, I
promised you a very special guest. This is a guest
who I was begging, begging to come into the studio
because he is a wealth of knowledge. And sit back
because some of the facts he's going to tell you
(00:20):
might actually be completely opposite of what you believe. I'm
talking about cannabis use. Look, we know that marijuana has
been used by humans for thousands and thousands of years,
both medicinally recreationally. But we also know in the last
few decades here in America, attitudes have shifted a lot.
(00:45):
Right we had at one point complete prohibition. I actually
knew somebody, poor guy who spent nine months in prison
for being caught with a little bit of marijuana. And
now look, it's on every street corner, in a shop,
in a legal shop. Right now. I also want to
say that my next guest is going to tell us
(01:06):
that there's a big gap between our ideas, our perceptions
about marijuana use, and the real science because our perceptions
are influenced by the companies that want to make a
book and the government that wants to make some tax money.
My guest is doctor Timothy Fong. He is a professor
of Psychiatry at for Human Behavior at UCLA. He's a
(01:30):
Board certified Adult and addiction psychiatry specialist, co director actually
of the UCLA Gambling Studies Program. Oh that's another thing.
We should talk about gambling sometime. But I like to
say when I introduce him, he is the guy in
LA when it comes to knowing the science about marijuana. Welcome,
doctor Pong. It's a pleasure to have you here.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
It is absolutely my pleasure to be here. Doctor Walt Wendy,
thank you for having me here in studio.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, it's wonderful. And I understand you're a KFI listener.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I love KFI and when it came to Usile Psychiatric
Residency in nineteen ninety eight, one of the first shows
I started listening to was Handled, big giant billboards everywhere.
It's only been twenty seven years i've been listened to KFI.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
We love our Handle. He's a great guy. So I
was listening to some videos on lectures that you did,
and you talk about our current marijuana use as this
growing public health crisis. Can you talk a little.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Bit about that well shirt, certainly. And again, if you
rewind where we were twenty years ago, think about La
There was no above board cannabis dispensary, there were no billboards.
People didn't talk about. It was in the shadows. Right
fast forward to twenty twenty five. Right now in our
stay we have about thirty five hundred cannabis dispensaries that
legally sell cannabis. We have a massive amount of unregulated
(02:51):
and unrestricted cannabis as well.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
That's the word I want to talk about. Unregulated. Is
the stuff in the stores regulated at all? Do we
know if what they say is in it is the
stuff that's in it?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Oh? Absolutely, So you go back to when we first
did this November twenty sixteen, it's been nine years since
our state has legalized cannabis used for adults towenty one
and old Streuss that, Yeah, they did stress that. And
so what we then have created is a very strange
California market right where on one hand, the above board
dispensaries that are doing it by the book, licenses, regulations,
(03:25):
policies and procedures that are protecting our health are selling products.
It's really sophisticated and safe. On the other hand, there
are a lot of brick and mortar dispensaries that are
not regulated, or they're doing delivery services and they're giving
things to the public that they think are safe but
actually are not fully and wholly tested. So nine years
(03:47):
we've created a very very tight California regulatory policy, and
you can imagine when you put a lot of rules
in place, there're gonna be some folks that don't follow it.
So that's why there's this weird split between Yes, things
that are on the shelves and regulated above boards, trusted
dispensaries are exactly what they say they are, versus things
that are in unregular dispensaries or things that are delivered.
(04:09):
And certainly things are handed to you by a friend
or a family matewner or an aunt or an uncle,
maybe at a July fourth barbecue.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
And someone told me the little bit of hot that
we smoked on back in college in the seventies and
eighties is not the same as the product that's around today.
Is today supposed to be stronger?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Oh absolutely, And that's one of the first myths that
we hear all the time. It's just weed, it's mother nature. Well,
it's very different than in the eighties or nineties, whereas
about on average about four percent THHC content. Now that
percentage is about twenty five thirty percent THHC that are
quote seized by officials. But we have products on the
(04:47):
shelves cannabis dispensaries that can go as high as seventy
eighty ninety percent THHD concentration. So it's a different product.
So imagine you know, again, you were born fifteen years
ago and now you're growing in to a world where
you only know high concentrated, high potency cannabis, right, and
the message to you as a young person says, hey,
(05:08):
it's just weed. I did it.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Do you know how many times I hear this? You know,
I teach health psychology at cal State Channel Islands, and
whenever I do my little addiction lecture, how many students
put up their hands. Only weed or just weed are
what I hear all the time. And they just think
it's harmless. Right, So that is myth number one, myth
number two. And they also say this, oh, thank goodness,
it's weed because nobody's going to overdose from it, right,
(05:33):
is it possible?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Well, again, the myth about why Is it harmless? Is
number one. You know, cannabis intoxication can be dangerous in
the sense that's some folks for the very first time
they use cannabis develop psychosis or nausea or impulsivity or aggression, right,
So that's part of it. Number Two, although it's very
rare to die from an overdose of cannabis, you can
(05:55):
die while intoxicated car accidents, falling off a route. In fact,
one of the byproducts of increased legalizations. That's in the
number of calls of poison control related to cannabis, right,
And even like babies and toddlers and things. But again,
I don't want to be the oh my gosh, this
guy's falling kind of thing. But these are just the
scientific facts. The second part about is why is it
(06:16):
not harmless? Again, is just straight addiction. When you develop
a cannabis use disorder or an addiction, it really significantly
damages your life.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
So there's this perception though that it's not addictive.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Oh, it absolutely is. And again pound for pound, if
you say opioids, heroin, fentanyl, cocaine, yes, there's a quote
more addictive if you look at say broccoli or kale, though,
or quinoa, you know, other Mother Nature's plants. They're much
less addictive than cannabis. This is about a nine percent
chance of developing addiction from the very first time you
(06:48):
use cannabis. Which is why we stress so importantly that
this is a product for adults. This is a product
that's meant to be used when your brain and your
body are ready for it. That means twenty one and up.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
And here's the big question. This myth out there that
there are no withdrawal symptoms that you can just quit.
And you use the word in one of your lectures, tapering,
just tapering off. How possible is that.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So in twenty thirteen, when we diagnose cannabis withdrawal as
an actual medical condition, there was controversy. Well, people say, well,
you don't die from withdrawal, But for anyone out there
who's gone through cannabis withdrawal, it is a It is suffering.
It's like the flu. You can't eat right, you can't
think straight, you can't function. So it creates a lot
(07:32):
of just damage, a lot of suffering that's unnecessary. So
and when the strength of the cannabis is much stronger,
you can develop withdrawal symptoms. Much quicker, literally within about
seven to ten days of using on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Wow. My guest doctor Timothy Fong from UCLA, he's the
go to person when it comes to cannabis research and knowledge.
Doctor Pong, let's talk about this medical marijuana that everyone
seems to say is but we need it? It's such
a good treatment. Is marijuana good to treat anything?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
We're trying to find out, and you think about our
history in California. We were one of the first states
that created medical cannabis, and back in twenty seventeen when
we started our Ucile Center for Cannabis and Cannabinoids, we're
really excited to find out how can we use cannabis
in a way that helps people and it helps get
rid of suffering. There's no doubt in my mind and
the hands of the right properly trained physicians that cannabis
(08:27):
probably could be a useful product. But we're not there yet.
We're not there yet, and so the science falls much
farther behind. We have actually a really interesting study looking
at just recently, when medical cannabis is used by doctors
that are trained in it, that see the patients properly,
that do it right that patients do get better. However,
(08:48):
that's the vast majority of doctors aren't trained in how
to use medical cannabis.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
But we're talking to treat things like you know, nausea
from chemotherapy, right, or maybe if you're wasting from a
disorder where you're getting too skinny and you can't eat,
that's right, sleep disorders perhaps, or PTS.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I actually know, and that's the myth, right, So our
science tells us, yes, it's effective for pain, it's effective
for chemotherapy to induce nausea and vomiting, and for muscle
spasticity from multiple sclerosis. Now all that other stuff you
hear about for insomnia, anxiety, PTSD, hangnails, growing hair, sexual reality,
(09:25):
the scientific studies don't bear that out.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
And depression and anxiety it actually increases, right, it.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Makes things worse. And so that's a real fascinating area.
And I really wish we could say with confidence that
our medical field has moved in the last twenty five
years to say that, yes, this product of medical cannabis
is really effective for X. Unfortunately we're not there yet.
And two things I see the number one oftenize patients
then say, oh, I'm not going to use the standard treatments.
(09:51):
I'm going to go straight to medical cannabis. And then
number two they do it on their own. You know,
this isn't a DIY kind of thing. You know, this
is a very very powerful plant with a lot of
potential effects, both positive and negative. So all folks out there, again,
it is the idea that we all want to reach
for something quick and easy and affordable that makes our
(10:11):
lives better. But unfortunately, if you're going to do that,
you have to do it under the supervision of a
physician that has experienced in using medical cannabis. Again, if
I said, hey, you know, go see a doctor, he
or she has signed off on a form and then
he won't tell you what to do, and you're supposed
to go pick out the product in the shelves, take
as much as you want or as little as you want,
(10:32):
and if you have problems, don't call that doctor back.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Well, that's not that's not how it works. How it works,
So let us talk about treatment. First of all, I
read somewhere that you're estimating that two percent of the
American population suffers from cannabis use disorder.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
That number globally is probably higher. Now that we've seen
expansion of cannabis in at least forty eight or twenty
four states and forty eight medical cannabis states. It's probably
almost up to like three or four percent of the
general popula.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I read somewhere that four percent of twelve to seventeen
year olds. Twelve to seventeen year olds.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, and stats are hard, I think. The way I
think about it this is very simple. A look, this
is a new generation gen Z, gen Y, whatever you
wanna call Generation Alpha, who are growing into a world
where cannabis use is accepted, normalized, permissible, and in some
ways promoted, very much promoted, versus again, a world where
the cannabis products are using and how they're using it
(11:25):
we now know scientifically not great for them. More kids
right are not smoking, they're vaping, vaping, and the biggest
concern amo our young kids using those vaping products a
lot more potency, a lot more chemicals. But there's also
use of a lot more synthetic cannabinoids. So these are
the delta THC eight, the THHCA, the delta TC ten.
(11:47):
These are human made products from like hemp. They're not
the naturally grown flowers. So it's just another synthetic compound
that unfortunately young kids are getting into much more popular.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
All right, so let's say somebody wants to quit, how
do they do it?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
So Number one, if you want to quit, really seeking
professional help. Again, this is not a DIY project. And
there's a lot a shame stigma and oh my gosh,
you're addicted, paw, you're adicted marijuana. How could that be? No,
if you're going to do it, do it in the
hands of professional a physician, a psychologist, and somebody.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Who specializes in addiction. Not just your primary care no, I.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Mean primary care. Many primary care doctors are starting to
see this all the time, emergency room docs, anyone who
has experienced with cannabis and health and behavioral health and
who's really well connected. And we say in our addiction field,
it takes a village, you know, to really get people better.
It's not just me, you know, seeing new ones for
every thirty minutes, like you know, you know, once a month.
So getting professional help is step one. I think get
(12:45):
incredible information online is really probably step zero. And a
lot of folks who are doing that are like, well,
they just google cannabis addiction treatmentabis withdrawal, and you get
literally millions of hits. And I think it starts with
getting incredible information like from our state California Department of
Public Health has a lot of really great information, or
the National Institute on Drug Abuse, or our own website
(13:06):
at the Cannabis Center that we have at Cannabis dot
SEMO dot UCLA dot edu.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
And I didn't calling around for a friend. And most insurance,
private health insurance does not cover marijuana detox, does it? Well,
they all say it's not medically necessary.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Right. They won't cover it in a quote hospital based
setting or a residential setting because I'll say, oh, this
person doesn't need to be in a contained environment. They'll
cover a lot of outpatient visits and maybe the intensive
outpatient program, but when people need full containment, probably not.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
So is there any medication that people can take to
help them through the withdrawal?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Well, right now July twenty twenty five, we do not
have an FDA proved medication for cannabis use disorder or
cannabis withdrawal. However, we have some stuff in the research
toolbox that kind of works that does help. And again,
just think about going through withdrawal. You stop cannabis tonight Sunday,
right after July fourth weekend. You might not have withdrawal
(14:04):
symptoms until Wednesday or next Friday, and you might be
able to realize that what you're going through is withdrawal.
So usually for a lot of folks, the first thing
is recognized that the symptoms that they're having are withdrawal,
and then we give comfort medications, we hydration, you know,
we do things that take away the symptoms of withdrawal
that are really difficult, like the nausea, the vomiting, and
(14:25):
the inability to eat or sleep, just the feeling queasy.
Those are the things that we do right away.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I actually read somewhere that there's some chronic cannabis use
can cause people to lose a lot of We always
think of getting the munchies and eating a lot when
you're high, right, but something goes on with your intestines
with chronic use.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
For some folks that can. I mean, we see intoxicated
case and cannabis hyper emebasis syndrome, or they're constantly vomiting
so much. We see I've had a number of patients
which just taken on a daily basis and caught that
vicious cycle where they usually get rid of the nausea
and vomiting, and they use too much and then the
BIP product, the side effect of using is what more
nogical vomiting. So again we don't want to be the
(15:05):
fear mongering at all, which is these are just some
things that happen out there. For the vast majority of people,
they don't experience these horrible things, but they can happen.
And I think for people to realize it's not just
you know, not just weed anymore. It's all sorts of
things that can happen.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
But we need to be having this conversation because we
are counteracting the kind of messaging out there, the myths
out there given by the producers of this drug and
maybe even you know, people that want to collect tax
money or sell it, et cetera. If left untreated. What
is the most common progression of cannabis use disorder is
(15:41):
a gateway drug?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
No, well, we have old school term. We don't use
gateway drugs anymore. No, I go back. It was really
interesting to me is that when I first got into it,
what I didn't realize is that untreated addiction leads to death.
It's as simple as that. And this is probably the
most shocking thing that I think listeners will hear about
that cannabis use disorder is associated with a higher rate
of morbidity and mortality. People die suicides, unintentional drug overdoses
(16:07):
on other stuff that they're not they didn't they're not
aware of that are in their cannabis. Other co occurring
mental health and medical conditions that are not treated again
untreated depression, untreated anxiety, untreated PTSD. These are things that
if people are using cannabis to treat, that actually make
it worse and subsequently could actually shorten their life. Lung
cancer there's another one that sometimes we see, and right
(16:29):
before the pandemic. I don't know if people remember twenty nineteen,
but there were about eighty deaths in America from electronic
vaping associated lunges.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
The mysterious vaping disease. Remember that we're trying to warn
our teenagers.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
All right, you remember that you probably did some content
on that in twenty nineteen. You know, those are all deaths.
So I think that's the thing people get shocked at
when they think, oh my gosh, there's increased death from
cannabis addiction, and the best way to prevent addiction, of course,
is obviously not to use on a daily basis, but
also to weight waiting. Your body and brain are fully
(17:02):
developed to begin to use it as an adult, right.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
So it's definitely not for kids, definitely not for teenagers.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yeah. And you know, I had one quick story. I
had a number of social workers. I said, you know,
when the kids using and the parents know they're using,
isn't that something we need to call Department of Family
Childcare Services? And I've never had a social worker. Well,
no one's going to take a kid away for giving
them cannabis. Said, but isn't the law twenty one and over? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So, I I mean, if you, as a parent drive
drunk with a kid in the car seat, you can
lose your kid for that. So if you're giving your
kid a drug, or allowing them to use in front of.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
You, if you're allowing them to use an edible, allowing
them to have a vap pen, and a lot of
parents don't even know, unfortunately, that the kid is using
cannabis because they don't smell it, right, edible, Yeah, the edibles,
the vate pens, the drinks, all these things are very
very different.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Doctor Timothy Fong I know this sounds like bad news,
but it's going to help lots and lots of people
to hear it. And it is just my pleasure to
have you here in the studio with us. As your
research breaks, as you continue to come up with new breakthroughs,
please keep in touch with us so that we can
make sure that the public gets this information that they need.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Absolutely, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I'm happy to have you here. You and that brings
a Doctor Wendywall Show to a close. Uh. If you
want to follow me on a social media you may.
The handle is at doctor Wendy Walsh. But I'm always
here for you. Every Sunday night from seven to nine,
you've been listening to the Doctor Wendywall Show on KFI
AM six forty live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
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