October 29, 2025 • 11 mins
Justin W. dives into the realities of modern parenting — from helicopter habits and college parent Facebook groups to real parents confessing their biggest mistakes. Honest, funny, and refreshingly real, this episode reminds us that no one gets parenting perfectly right — and that’s what makes it beautiful.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Since I had kids, nobody's ever talking to me about
razor blades and apples or like, don't do this candy? Right,
Nelly one time like sifted through kids candy, but that
was it.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
After that, she's like going through it, but I wasn't.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
I would under the pretext of like kids sometimes dangerous
stuff happens on Halloween. Meanwhile I'm pocketing, like you're collecting
dad tax.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Somebody that was trigger treating. Was the first time I
heard the dad tax term, and I love it. I'm
a big fan.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Gary and Shannon k If. I am six forty live
everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Wow, Shannon, I can't believe what you just said.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
I had to do a double take, and then I
realized you were talking about Gary's dad and how he
looked in pants.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
All the good news is you've never seen him not
in pants.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
No. No, Now I know something I could never unknown.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Well, I take that back. You you did see July fourth.
I didn't say that there's probably in shorts.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
Yeah, wearing shorts. It was one hundred and fifteen degrees.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I guarantee that he was your dad.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Haves like the knees and calves that had never seen
the light of day when he wore shorts.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
My wife used to Okay, in the last couple of
months of dad's life, he was basically in the front
room like he wasn't he wasn't bed ridden the entire time,
but he was he was not entirely mobile, and he
would wear shorts because it was more comfortable. And his
legs were lily white, I mean, untouched by the smidgeon
(01:29):
of a ray of sunshine.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
But you turn off the lights and they glow roos
fick skin.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Yeah, perfect, And she would always say that is the
absolute best argument for protecting your skin from sundown.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
Did he was hee a big protector of No.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
He just wore pants.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
My son, my seventeen year old son, is already a
sixty two year old man. He does not like shorts
like he comes out of his room when he was three.
Not that bad, but pretty close. He's definitely fashioned like I.
Since he was like ten years old, I've been going
to him, going, this matches right, because he just it's
like an actual thing.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
He just knows how to do.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I've never had this.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
He's got this fashion sense that he was just born
with and he dresses well. He looks good, but when
it's hot he comes on and he's like, I gotta
wear shorts.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
He better get him something with a front bleek. He
was not available for consultation on this outfit.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
You know what, that's extra funny.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
No, sometimes the truth is funnier. Parents, My wife did this.
Parents are joining face group Facebook groups for their kids school.
A lot of times it helps just disseminate simple information
(02:43):
about your kids and off at school. Sometimes most of
the time a giant bitch fest where all you do
is complain about something. Really now, I will say this,
when my daughter, my wife was yes, but when my
was in college, it was deep COVID, and the schools
(03:04):
were running around with their heads cut off because they
thought that children were dying, which they weren't, especially not
college kids. But all of these ridiculous restrictions that were
put on the absolute healthiest kids, the healthiest part of
our population, was a real generator of frustration among the
(03:25):
parents that were involved.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So that was where it became a huge issue.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
But this is more talking about parents being over involved
in the academics in the way that like a lot
of elementary school seems to be okay, Like you volunteer
in the classroom, you help out, you maybe take home
and you cut out the things, sort of the art
project the next day.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
These are parents who are like asking on these.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Facebook groups like how do I get access to see
my kids grades while they're in college? And these are
this is and what's funny is I read this, I'm like,
oh my gosh. And then Julie Lycott Halims, who wrote
a great book called How to Raise in the Adult.
She was the Deana freshman student. She was interviewed for
this article because her entire book was about how she
realized at Stanford University, more and more freshmen were coming
into the school ill equipped to be on their own
(04:12):
because their parents had handled everything, and that parents were
actually staying for the first month that the kid was
in school to help them.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Basically staying in Palo Alto staying up there.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Like in a hotel, doing laundry, preparing meals, helping them
with homework and everything to help them transition easier into adulthood.
And this scares the living crap out of me, Like
I feel like I did pretty good, but this idea
that they don't they don't know how to deal with
negative experiences. There's a kid in here who basically said,
like I saw it or no. I saw an interview
(04:41):
recently on a show where the kids said, like, you're
so involved. By the time I got went to college,
I didn't really know how to have my own voice
or my own opinions because all my decisions were made
for me. Like, she's an adult in her nineteen twenty
years old and can't make the choices because she has
no practice doing it, and it's so basic, right, it's
so weird.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
I don't understand imagine it would be hard for moms though,
when that's part the ingrained in you to help your
kid make right choices, especially if they're under your roof
and you want to kind of steer them into it.
There's always going to be a degree of Okay, I'm
out on my own. My mom's not here to tell
me what to do, what do I do? And that's
part of the learning process, right. You got to hit
(05:21):
those guardrails, You do your best help you can, and
then you let as you set them free. And when
you get set free right away, you're gonna be like, good,
what do I do now?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Oh, And you're probably gonna hit those guardrails a little
harder than like, I don't know, I don't I'm not
saying I'm doing it perfect, but I feel like at
this age, I've definitely taken off the training wheels and
gone back inside the house while they're riding the bike
of life around the block on their own. Like, I
give them guidance, but I tell them a lot, even
when they're getting back grades. I said, listen, you're going
to have to figure this out. If you want help,
(05:49):
you got to come and ask me for help. But
you're at a point in your life where you're gonna
make your own choice, and my job is just to
give you the consequences of that choice.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Yeah, And there's a different like you point of in here.
It refers to parents figuring out how to get, like
you said, access to their kids' grades. And when our
daughter was in college, the very first thing, not the
first thing. Some of the things we said included like, hey,
this is your job. Your job is to keep track
of this stuff. Your job is to figure out how
to stay on top of homework and on top of projects.
(06:19):
If you need help. I know a couple of people
who've been to college, and we could at least help
formulate some plans on how to do that. But we're
not going to come in and give you a plan.
If something starts to fall through the cracks and you
need help, just ask for it.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
We got plenty of it.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, you need to be a support to ask for it.
I love what Julie said her quote in this article.
You're effectively occupying the student's lane and pushing your own
student out of it. You're depriving them of having those
very experiences because I'm so afraid that they are so
incapable that I'm choosing to do it all for them, Right,
It doesn't make any sense. Yeah, it's gonna be fine, though.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I'm sure everybody's gonna be good.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Yeah, you have no control over it. They're out there.
The training rails are off.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Parenting re threats.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
I think it's very funny because they're all things that
we have said, you'd say repeatedly, repeatedly to not do,
But when you're in the moment as a parent, it's
hard to follow your own rules sometimes.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Yeah, do you guys have regrets?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I have? I have one that I have. I was
going to ask you if you have the same thing.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
There's a lot like I'll rattle some off, trying to
parent like my parents did, trying to keep everything fair,
worrying about grades in middle school, which I thought is
interesting because they're like middle school. No, it doesn't matter,
nobody cares, which I don't know if I agree.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Let it get your kids in the habit of yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
What I would have met.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, lots of cell phone stuff, letting them have cell
phones too early, feeling guilt that would.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Be mine is the cell phone thing.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
But I mean it's again, and it's one of those
hard things where it's not just me. It's not as
simple as saying no cell phone until your eighteen, just
because the way the world works now, it's hard to
u and the different options that are available about a
restricted cell phone or a dumb phone or a flip
like all of those.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
It's it's not as easy as just a straight up bad.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
There's one in here that said when my daughter came
out to me, my first response was no, you aren't,
instead of I love you and I'm always here for you.
And my first thought was I always trying to think
of what's on the other end of that. I think
if my son, which I think makes me bad. Like
if my son came to me when he was like
six or seven, is like, I think I'm gay. I
think my knee jerk reaction would be like, no, you're not,
Like you don't know that now, right, Yeah, but I
(08:28):
don't know that's the that's the truth. Like I could
definitely I'm really stepping on a lot of lambines here,
Like I could definitely see myself falling into that trap,
like and not not being open minded, not and I'm
not homophobic, like if they were like great, I'm also
the guy that when I had to talk with him
and I said, it's okay if you're gay, and I said,
I get it, but I'm not.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I go right, But if you were.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
You kept pushing it three and then gay.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yet we're trying.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
At the root of everything is you want your kids
to be happy, yes, and you don't want them to
have things harder for them than life is already hard. Right,
So I think probably it has nothing to do what
you think about gay people. You just want it the
easiest path possible naturally.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Which I fight against because you're right. I think that's
the mistake that modern parents make. Is like what we
talked about before with college, Like everybody's trying to make
it easier for their kids, and I don't think it's
actually making it easier. But to answer your question, my
big regret regret or regret was when my son was
like six years old, five or six, he wouldn't take
cough medicine. It would make him sick and he would
throw up. And then he was able to take it,
(09:32):
and then he got this cold and he took it
and he threw up, and I was like, no, we're
not going backwards like you could do this. We're going
to find a way around it. And it was this
thing where every time I thought this is going to
be the time, and I kept saying, we're going to
try this, We're going to try this, and at a
certain point he had nothing left to hurl. So he's
just gagging a lot. And if I could go back
in a race that day, I would. He remembers it,
(09:54):
but he doesn't see as like me being awful. But
I think that's just the way children look at their parents,
maybe unfortunately, but that's my big parental regrets.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
He's letting you off the hook, I know, baby, But.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
Yeah, to take advantage of that, yeah, you had a
million other great days.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Let him forget that. Why do you have any Gary,
or just the phone thing? Yeah, that's right. I mean
I'm sure there's probably others that are. But I never
did that to my child like you did. Oh my gosh. Hey, sorry,
don't pretend. Don't pretend.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Do you want me a moment right now? They'll totally
do it.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
That doesn't make it better.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
They make me. Sometimes it just happens. Sometimes you just
throw up.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
That is so diabolical. They make new ones about my regret.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
That's not a regret. To be fair, you don't regret
that one bit. You have no remorse. Yeah, that was
the that was the sniper shot. You should be proud.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I'm sure at dinner if it happened today, it's dinner,
dinner time with Craig, you're gonna be like, guess this one.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Look at what the gem I dropped? Today?
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Gets those kinds of lines all the time.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Craig does, or Gary.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
He's a dude. He also outwears things and wears them
for too long.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
You know all dudes do that. Hey, listen to travel.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
You should be happy, right this old bag of shoes,
a worn out mark, the piece of.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Converse State, Robert, they make new ones of those two.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
I've seen them. Gary and Shannon will continue right after
this
Since I had kids, nobody's ever talking to me about
razor blades and apples or like, don't do this candy? Right,
Nelly one time like sifted through kids candy, but that
was it.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
After that, she's like going through it, but I wasn't.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
I would under the pretext of like kids sometimes dangerous
stuff happens on Halloween. Meanwhile I'm pocketing, like you're collecting
dad tax.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Somebody that was trigger treating. Was the first time I
heard the dad tax term, and I love it. I'm
a big fan.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Gary and Shannon k If. I am six forty live
everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Wow, Shannon, I can't believe what you just said.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
I had to do a double take, and then I
realized you were talking about Gary's dad and how he
looked in pants.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
All the good news is you've never seen him not
in pants.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
No. No, Now I know something I could never unknown.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Well, I take that back. You you did see July fourth.
I didn't say that there's probably in shorts.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
Yeah, wearing shorts. It was one hundred and fifteen degrees.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I guarantee that he was your dad.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Haves like the knees and calves that had never seen
the light of day when he wore shorts.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
My wife used to Okay, in the last couple of
months of dad's life, he was basically in the front
room like he wasn't he wasn't bed ridden the entire time,
but he was he was not entirely mobile, and he
would wear shorts because it was more comfortable. And his
legs were lily white, I mean, untouched by the smidgeon
(01:29):
of a ray of sunshine.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
But you turn off the lights and they glow roos
fick skin.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Yeah, perfect, And she would always say that is the
absolute best argument for protecting your skin from sundown.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
Did he was hee a big protector of No.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
He just wore pants.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
My son, my seventeen year old son, is already a
sixty two year old man. He does not like shorts
like he comes out of his room when he was three.
Not that bad, but pretty close. He's definitely fashioned like I.
Since he was like ten years old, I've been going
to him, going, this matches right, because he just it's
like an actual thing.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
He just knows how to do.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I've never had this.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
He's got this fashion sense that he was just born
with and he dresses well. He looks good, but when
it's hot he comes on and he's like, I gotta
wear shorts.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
He better get him something with a front bleek. He
was not available for consultation on this outfit.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
You know what, that's extra funny.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
No, sometimes the truth is funnier. Parents, My wife did this.
Parents are joining face group Facebook groups for their kids school.
A lot of times it helps just disseminate simple information
(02:43):
about your kids and off at school. Sometimes most of
the time a giant bitch fest where all you do
is complain about something. Really now, I will say this,
when my daughter, my wife was yes, but when my
was in college, it was deep COVID, and the schools
(03:04):
were running around with their heads cut off because they
thought that children were dying, which they weren't, especially not
college kids. But all of these ridiculous restrictions that were
put on the absolute healthiest kids, the healthiest part of
our population, was a real generator of frustration among the
(03:25):
parents that were involved.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So that was where it became a huge issue.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
But this is more talking about parents being over involved
in the academics in the way that like a lot
of elementary school seems to be okay, Like you volunteer
in the classroom, you help out, you maybe take home
and you cut out the things, sort of the art
project the next day.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
These are parents who are like asking on these.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Facebook groups like how do I get access to see
my kids grades while they're in college? And these are
this is and what's funny is I read this, I'm like,
oh my gosh. And then Julie Lycott Halims, who wrote
a great book called How to Raise in the Adult.
She was the Deana freshman student. She was interviewed for
this article because her entire book was about how she
realized at Stanford University, more and more freshmen were coming
into the school ill equipped to be on their own
(04:12):
because their parents had handled everything, and that parents were
actually staying for the first month that the kid was
in school to help them.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Basically staying in Palo Alto staying up there.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Like in a hotel, doing laundry, preparing meals, helping them
with homework and everything to help them transition easier into adulthood.
And this scares the living crap out of me, Like
I feel like I did pretty good, but this idea
that they don't they don't know how to deal with
negative experiences. There's a kid in here who basically said,
like I saw it or no. I saw an interview
(04:41):
recently on a show where the kids said, like, you're
so involved. By the time I got went to college,
I didn't really know how to have my own voice
or my own opinions because all my decisions were made
for me. Like, she's an adult in her nineteen twenty
years old and can't make the choices because she has
no practice doing it, and it's so basic, right, it's
so weird.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
I don't understand imagine it would be hard for moms though,
when that's part the ingrained in you to help your
kid make right choices, especially if they're under your roof
and you want to kind of steer them into it.
There's always going to be a degree of Okay, I'm
out on my own. My mom's not here to tell
me what to do, what do I do? And that's
part of the learning process, right. You got to hit
(05:21):
those guardrails, You do your best help you can, and
then you let as you set them free. And when
you get set free right away, you're gonna be like, good,
what do I do now?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Oh, And you're probably gonna hit those guardrails a little
harder than like, I don't know, I don't I'm not
saying I'm doing it perfect, but I feel like at
this age, I've definitely taken off the training wheels and
gone back inside the house while they're riding the bike
of life around the block on their own. Like, I
give them guidance, but I tell them a lot, even
when they're getting back grades. I said, listen, you're going
to have to figure this out. If you want help,
(05:49):
you got to come and ask me for help. But
you're at a point in your life where you're gonna
make your own choice, and my job is just to
give you the consequences of that choice.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Yeah, And there's a different like you point of in here.
It refers to parents figuring out how to get, like
you said, access to their kids' grades. And when our
daughter was in college, the very first thing, not the
first thing. Some of the things we said included like, hey,
this is your job. Your job is to keep track
of this stuff. Your job is to figure out how
to stay on top of homework and on top of projects.
(06:19):
If you need help. I know a couple of people
who've been to college, and we could at least help
formulate some plans on how to do that. But we're
not going to come in and give you a plan.
If something starts to fall through the cracks and you
need help, just ask for it.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
We got plenty of it.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, you need to be a support to ask for it.
I love what Julie said her quote in this article.
You're effectively occupying the student's lane and pushing your own
student out of it. You're depriving them of having those
very experiences because I'm so afraid that they are so
incapable that I'm choosing to do it all for them, Right,
It doesn't make any sense. Yeah, it's gonna be fine, though.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I'm sure everybody's gonna be good.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Yeah, you have no control over it. They're out there.
The training rails are off.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Parenting re threats.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
I think it's very funny because they're all things that
we have said, you'd say repeatedly, repeatedly to not do,
But when you're in the moment as a parent, it's
hard to follow your own rules sometimes.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Yeah, do you guys have regrets?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I have? I have one that I have. I was
going to ask you if you have the same thing.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
There's a lot like I'll rattle some off, trying to
parent like my parents did, trying to keep everything fair,
worrying about grades in middle school, which I thought is
interesting because they're like middle school. No, it doesn't matter,
nobody cares, which I don't know if I agree.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Let it get your kids in the habit of yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
What I would have met.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, lots of cell phone stuff, letting them have cell
phones too early, feeling guilt that would.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Be mine is the cell phone thing.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
But I mean it's again, and it's one of those
hard things where it's not just me. It's not as
simple as saying no cell phone until your eighteen, just
because the way the world works now, it's hard to
u and the different options that are available about a
restricted cell phone or a dumb phone or a flip
like all of those.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
It's it's not as easy as just a straight up bad.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
There's one in here that said when my daughter came
out to me, my first response was no, you aren't,
instead of I love you and I'm always here for you.
And my first thought was I always trying to think
of what's on the other end of that. I think
if my son, which I think makes me bad. Like
if my son came to me when he was like
six or seven, is like, I think I'm gay. I
think my knee jerk reaction would be like, no, you're not,
Like you don't know that now, right, Yeah, but I
(08:28):
don't know that's the that's the truth. Like I could
definitely I'm really stepping on a lot of lambines here,
Like I could definitely see myself falling into that trap,
like and not not being open minded, not and I'm
not homophobic, like if they were like great, I'm also
the guy that when I had to talk with him
and I said, it's okay if you're gay, and I said,
I get it, but I'm not.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I go right, But if you were.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
You kept pushing it three and then gay.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yet we're trying.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
At the root of everything is you want your kids
to be happy, yes, and you don't want them to
have things harder for them than life is already hard. Right,
So I think probably it has nothing to do what
you think about gay people. You just want it the
easiest path possible naturally.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Which I fight against because you're right. I think that's
the mistake that modern parents make. Is like what we
talked about before with college, Like everybody's trying to make
it easier for their kids, and I don't think it's
actually making it easier. But to answer your question, my
big regret regret or regret was when my son was
like six years old, five or six, he wouldn't take
cough medicine. It would make him sick and he would
throw up. And then he was able to take it,
(09:32):
and then he got this cold and he took it
and he threw up, and I was like, no, we're
not going backwards like you could do this. We're going
to find a way around it. And it was this
thing where every time I thought this is going to
be the time, and I kept saying, we're going to
try this, We're going to try this, and at a
certain point he had nothing left to hurl. So he's
just gagging a lot. And if I could go back
in a race that day, I would. He remembers it,
(09:54):
but he doesn't see as like me being awful. But
I think that's just the way children look at their parents,
maybe unfortunately, but that's my big parental regrets.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
He's letting you off the hook, I know, baby, But.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
Yeah, to take advantage of that, yeah, you had a
million other great days.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Let him forget that. Why do you have any Gary,
or just the phone thing? Yeah, that's right. I mean
I'm sure there's probably others that are. But I never
did that to my child like you did. Oh my gosh. Hey, sorry,
don't pretend. Don't pretend.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Do you want me a moment right now? They'll totally
do it.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
That doesn't make it better.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
They make me. Sometimes it just happens. Sometimes you just
throw up.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
That is so diabolical. They make new ones about my regret.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
That's not a regret. To be fair, you don't regret
that one bit. You have no remorse. Yeah, that was
the that was the sniper shot. You should be proud.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I'm sure at dinner if it happened today, it's dinner,
dinner time with Craig, you're gonna be like, guess this one.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Look at what the gem I dropped? Today?
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Gets those kinds of lines all the time.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Craig does, or Gary.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
He's a dude. He also outwears things and wears them
for too long.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
You know all dudes do that. Hey, listen to travel.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
You should be happy, right this old bag of shoes,
a worn out mark, the piece of.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Converse State, Robert, they make new ones of those two.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
I've seen them. Gary and Shannon will continue right after
this
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