Survival of the Gayest

Ever wonder why same sex behavior evolved in our species? Survival of the fittest may also mean Survival of the Gayest! Let's explain, with science!!!

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Ever wonder why same sex behavior evolvedin our species. I mean, at
this point in our evolution, humansstill need egg, sperm, and a
womb to reproduce. But mother natureis a perfect planner, and survival of
the fittest might also mean survival ofthe gayest. This is Mating Matters.

(00:28):
Mating Matters is the podcast that looksat human behavior through a lens of reproduction.
I'm doctor Wendy Walsh, and I'vealways been fascinated with the science of
love and evolutionary psychology. In recentdecades, the great thinkers and evolutionary psychology
have expanded Darwin's original premise. Remembersurvival of the fittest. You see,

(00:49):
Darwin believed that we're here simply becausewe learn to survive. He said,
we evolved because we learn to adaptto our environment and procure food and shelter,
often very harsh conditions. Here's theproblem with that simplistic view of evolution.
Even if one smarty pants hunter gathererlived a life of fine dining on
animal carcasses and outfitted his cave withonly the very best animal skins and modern

(01:14):
heating called fire, if he orshe forgot to reproduce, that cave man
is not our ancestor. He mayhave survived, but he didn't create descendants.
Survival doesn't ensure that jenes stay inevolution's chain. Now, reproduction,
that's another matter. In evolutionary terms, she who dies with the most grandchildren

(01:40):
wins. I believe nearly every humanbehavior is designed to increase our reproductive odds.
But what about homosexual behavior? Whydid it evolve? That's the question
I set out to answer in thisepisode of Mating Matters. Welcome to Survival

(02:00):
of the gayest Freddie, could youtell us about the rooms consigning your sexuality
can last? You don't make decisionsfor the band, your life is going
to be very difficult. The multipleaward winning performance of Rammy Malick in Bohemian
Rhapsody, the biopic of Freddie Mercury, the lead singer of Queen, depicted

(02:22):
a man who seemed to struggle withhis sexual identity. He was deeply in
love with a woman named Mary playedby Lucy Poynton, and also had many
same sex relationships. In fact,he wrote the song love of My Life
for Mary. I think come bisexual, Freddie. Okay, watching that movie,

(02:46):
I at first experienced the feeling thatthe producers probably intended. Here was
a gay man in the nineteen seventiesfrom a conservative immigrant family who was under
cultural pressure to act straight and maintaina heatero sexual relationship. But the social
scientist in me had an inkling ofanother thought. His lifelong love for Mary

(03:07):
was so deep and their attachment socrucial to his feelings of security. What
if he was a bisexual man whowas under cultural pressure to choose a side,
and what percentage of people live withthat pressure to be put in one
box or another. Hello, I'mdoctor Alfred Kinsey from Indiana University, and

(03:30):
I'm making a study of sex behavior. That's the actor Liam Neeson playing doctor
Alfred Kinsey in the movie Kinsey.Some of the earliest work on sexual behavior
was done in the nineteen forties bythis Harvard trained scientist. In fact,
even today, the Kinsey Institute producessome of the most respected research on human
sexuality in the world. In thenineteen forties, Kinsey interviewed thousands of people,

(03:54):
asking them about their sexual histories andcreating something called the Kinsey Scale.
What's your most common decision? There'smore than one. I've learned that the
gap between what we assume people dosexually. What they actually do is an
aurus. How young were you whenyou first experienced hugging, necking, hetty?

(04:16):
What did you dream about? That'swhy a study of this kind is
so important. All we have iswhat people like you who are willing to
share with us. Does suppressing twoor three times, No, only once
a day I think about my catlead to stuttering a lot. So if

(04:38):
you're sitting comfortably there, let's beginin a nutshell. The Kinsey scale looked
at two things, sexual fantasies andactual sexual behavior. Kinsey's hunch was that
many gay people were culturally constrained tobehave as straight people, yet still might
have homosexual fantasies, and Kinsey wasright. From these interviews, he created

(05:00):
a six point scale. Someone scoringa one on the Kinsey scale would be
completely heterosexual, meaning all their fantasiesand behavior were reported to be heterosexual.
At the other end of the scale, someone scoring a six would be considered
one hundred percent homosexual. Virtually alltheir fantasies and sexual behavior was reported to
be homosexual. That leaves the restof us. You might think that the

(05:25):
vast majority of Kinsey's respondents would haveranked A one or a six. McKinsey
found that most people lie somewhere inthe gray area in between. They might
have mostly homosexual behavior but experience someheterosexual sexual fantasy or have opposite sex relationships
at some point, or they maybe mostly straight with some gay fantasies or

(05:45):
experience, often occurring in young adulthoodand adolescence when hormones are high and self
identity is forming. This man sayshe had plenty of girlfriends in high school,
but one summer home from college,he decided to wander up the beach
to an area known as Gay Beach. It was the summer of my freshman
year in college, and I knew, okay, I'm going to try and

(06:10):
kind of explore this a little bit. Without really defining that I was going
to do something that day, Iknew I was open to walking down the
beach to where the gays were,and I happened to notice a guy who
was really attractive. That was that, I just I noticed him. So
anyway, I went out into thesurf, and soon he actually came out

(06:30):
to the surf. Coincidentally, becauseI don't think he noticed that I noticed
him, we wound up. I'mBrian. I'm the program director of the
new national LGBTQ radio network known asChannel Q. So I came to the
realization that I was gay at aboutage fourteen. We reconnected. I went
to his house for a barbecue,and ultimately we, as I think the
kids would say today, we hookedup. If this experience had happened two

(06:54):
hundred years ago, some historians believethis man might not have quote unquote become
gay, meaning interpreting his sexual behavioras part of his self identity. The
concept of an exclusively gay person isrelatively new in our history, say about
one hundred and fifty years. Itlikely got bundled up with the spread of

(07:15):
Western religions who wanted to grow theirranks through reproduction and limit sex for that
purpose. Listen to the Mating Matterspodcast episode called The God Who Clubs for
more on that. In reaction tothe negative cultural attitudes toward homosexual behavior,
gay eventually became a community, acivil rights movement, a political platform.

(07:38):
Harvey Milk, a gay activist inSan Francisco, was the first openly gay
elected official in America when he waselected to the San Francisco Board of supervisors
in nineteen seventy seven. The actorSean Penn played Harvey Milk in the two
thousand and eight movie simply called Milkyrecruiting. If homosexuals are allowed their civil

(08:03):
rights and so it prostitutes or thievesor anyone else old and I haven't done
a thing. I'm not going tobe forced out of San Francisco by social
deviens in coles with us. Weneed one of oll in an office.
We could have a revolution here.I don't do losing. She has a

(08:26):
new campaign manager. You're all scaredof girls. You'll be the first openly
gay man elected to major office.Sinciprime machine. Society can't exist without the
family. We're not against that.Can two men reproduce? No, but
God knows we keep trying. Tragically, Harvey Milk was assassinated while in office

(08:48):
by another former county supervisor. Whydo you think that in the last one
hundred, one hundred and fifty yearsthere's been this pressure to self identify as
one or the other? Well,I would say maybe perhaps, And this
is really just off the top ofmy head, I think speaking in modern
times. I know once I gotout of college and I moved to the

(09:11):
Bay Area, San Francisco. Specifically, there was a need to then identify
because there was a political drive behindwhat I was doing and others were doing.
Now mind that this was also duringthe AIDS crisis, and so in
order to have a voice and todemand attention in a way, we certainly

(09:33):
really were loud and proud about beinggay or queer. We took back that
word. And I think there arelots of reasons why as a younger person
might want to identify as that,because it's helping them find that voice,
that lane, if you will,which is separating them from there or shedding
that former life of theirs, whichis maybe what they thought they might be,

(09:58):
or what their family expect them expectsthe to be, which is heterosexual.
And so there's a need to identify, I think, if only to
figure it out. And while thereare some who thrive in gay communities,
other people in same sex relationships chooseto live in conservative, mostly heterosexual suburbs

(10:18):
and don't even take on gay aspart of their identity. Do you self
identify gay? No, by anything. I really don't. Interesting I really
do. Same sex partner I do, I've been with the same partner for
twenty eight years, celebrating our sixthwedding anniversary in July. But yeah,
we've been together twenty eight years andI'm raising two children. They're adults now

(10:39):
though, twenty four and twenty one, two boys. So many families tell
me all the time they're so gratefulthat like that our kids will become friends
with their kids. And then theyfind out that my kids being raised by
two moms, and it kind ofthere they kind of have to question their
own you know, bigotry or not, and they're like, okay, so
is this going to be okay withme? Is it not? And then

(11:01):
they get to know us, andthey're so grateful because they've been exposed to
something that they had no idea reallyexistent. Whether you subscribe to the idea
that gay is an identity or gayis a behavior, it still doesn't explain
why we as humans evolve to havethe behavior. Same sex relationships are seen

(11:22):
in all primates and all human culturesthroughout all human history. Napoleonic friendship is
a term that refers to special bondsof friendship that grow between men in a
homosocial environment like the army. Yetat first glance, there doesn't seem to
be a reproductive benefit. You shouldknow that there are other sexual behaviors shunned

(11:45):
across human cultures because they don't positivelyimpact reproduction. Take incest. For example.
Sex between siblings is generally taboo inall human cultures, but not same
sex behaviors between strangers. Why wouldthis be? Anthropologists have often pointed to
the gay uncle or gay ant theory. In our anthropological past, if a
mother had an extra child free adultaround to help with her own children,

(12:09):
especially one with a biological interest inprotecting them, more of her children would
have survived to adulthood and gone onto have babies themselves. The theory is
that gay uncles and gay aunties oftencalled alloparents, also nurtured their own genes,
and those genes flourished in their niecesand nephews. Thus, the gay

(12:30):
gene, if there is such athing, would have stayed in evolution's chain.
Sounds like a good theory, buthere's a more impactful one. Remember
Kinsey in his scale, all ofhis data came from self reports. If
there's one thing people often lie about, it's sex. There's just too much
judgment and made up stigma. Aroundsexuality. Nevertheless, very few people reported

(12:54):
being exclusively gay or exclusively heterosexual.The vast majority of gay people he interviewed
also had had heterosexual relationships at somepoint in their lives, often because getting
married and having kids was the onlything allowed. Sometimes homosexuality was downright illegal
and even dangerous. Besides the helpfulgay uncle theory, evolutionary psychologists remind us

(13:22):
that quote unquote, gay people arealso reproducing and passing on their genes that
might include an affinity for same sexbehavior. That certainly makes a lot of
sense, and all of the gaypeople we interviewed also said they'd had heterosexual
relationships, not always because of culturalpressure, but just because they enjoyed them.

(13:43):
I was quite the ladies man.I had girlfriend up, the girlfriend
up the girlfriend, and was happilyengaged in that activity because it's what I
knew. I have had sex withwomen. My first sexual experience was with
a woman at age twelve. Shewas fifteen, yeah, and then shortly
thereafter when I was about fifteen orsixteen, is my first sexual experience with

(14:03):
a man. To be that way, it's more fluid for me than necessarily
being a wholly identifying homosexual male.Some days I will be very into women,
but then I'll see a cute boywalking down the street and I'll be
like, Oh, he's so cute. Even though I was with a girl
yesterday, I didn't even really havean experience with a woman until I was

(14:26):
twenty two, I suppose, andit never crossed my mind that I would
ever find women attractive. I findmen very physically attractive, and then so
I always tell people, you know, I just I fell in love with
the person. But there's much moreto the story of survival of the gayest,
and for that we turned to genderrole and gender expression. Here's a
fun fact about gay man that mightsurprise you. The more older brothers a

(14:52):
man has, the more likely heis to be gay. One researcher has
even isolated the biological underpinnings this phenomenon. My name is Tony Bogart. I'm
a professor of health sciences and psychologyat Brock University in the Niagara region of
Canada, and I do research andteach related to human sexuality. In nineteen

(15:16):
ninety six, Ray Blanchard and Iactually conducted the first study demonstrating that on
average, gay men do have moreolder brothers than do heterosexual men, and
we were perplexed by that. Wethought that was very interesting, and we
ended up replicating it in a numberof other samples, including the original Kinsey

(15:37):
sample. Then other people actually endedup replicating and in fact it's been replicated
across culturally as well, so it'sone of the more consistent reliable findings in
sexology. We didn't have a mechanismfor why that was, though, so
we were unsure about why that wasthe case, and so I actually ended

(15:58):
up doing lab work with immunologists,and just recently we published a study that
in fact suggests very strongly that theolder brother effect is in fact biological,
in fact immunological in nature. Buta mother develops an immune reaction to a

(16:18):
protein that's male oriented, so sheherself is female, and male fetuses have
certain biological structures that are very foreignto her, and therefore she may end
up developing an immune reaction to it, and it becomes increasingly likely with each

(16:38):
male fetus that she in fact willdevelop an immune reaction against that male protein.
And once she does, what endsup happening is it alters brain development
and makes later born males more likelyto end up having certain mechanisms in the
brain that end up making them morelikely to be attracted to men as opposed

(17:02):
to women. So it's almost likethe more men she's had in her body,
her body says, you know,the next one, let's make it
a little more female kind of yeah. And how many siblings do you have?
I am the youngest of five,and so there are two sisters and
two brothers. All this research makesme think, could a gay little brother

(17:30):
be helpful for families? After all? Reproductive strength is a family affair.
Could Mother nature be manufacturing strong,caring siblings who might not reproduce well.
Mother nature may do it sometimes biologically, but there's at least one group that
does it culturally. Meet the fuffafine of Samoa, a third gender group

(17:55):
of people who are born biologically malebut prefer female dress and gender roles,
and are very dedicated to their familiesfafafini. They are not staying home and
I have been up the family andhelping the people, sisters and brothers,
and you've better do your own thingsso your family will get back contact with

(18:15):
you all the time. A popularWestern theory is that when a Samoan mother
gives birth to too many sons.The family raises the youngest son as a
girl to help with the labor,although this idea has been disputed. Oh
sisters and Fred they developed black angerbecause they haven't kids to stay home kire

(18:36):
my man and my dad because Ihad no kids. These special community members
are considered a third gender. Theyare also reported to only have sex with
non fafafine men. They are accepted, and today some even take hormones so
they can breastfeed younger siblings. Butwait, as you can hear, I'm

(18:57):
mixing up sexual orientation with gender roleand gender identity. These are three distinct
concepts. They aren't necessarily connected.Just because you can see someone's gender expression
doesn't mean you know who they sleepwith. However, I noticed that when
I ask the mostly self identifying gaypeople in our studio about their sexual identity,

(19:18):
they almost always tied it to genderrole. You know, I'm married
to really a traditional guy's guy.He knows what to do with a hammer
and nails. He's very well he'sa rocket scientist, so that helps.
But he's very even keel I wouldcome to expect in a man. He

(19:41):
is very protective. I know thatno matter what, we're always going to
be safe and sound with doctor Stevearound. I, on the other hand,
am much more emotional that we attributethat with women. Oftentimes, I'm
much more I know how to makethings look pretty. He knows how to
make them. It sounds like yourdefinition of gay identity is also intertwined with

(20:07):
gender identity. Correct, And sodo you think that this sort of forcing
people into a gender pigeon hole hasled the way into making them go into
a sexual orientation pigeon hole. Ithink that's a really good evaluation. I
think the best tangible entity for that. We are raised filling out forms from
a very young age, and therehave always been a male or a female

(20:30):
box to take off or to check. And it is really hard because it
takes a certain amount of self awarenessto identify that. Maybe I don't necessarily
fall into those When you see someone'sgender expression, how masculine or feminine they
may dress and groom themselves, andyou notice the gender roles they prefer.
Are they a tidy housekeeper? Dothey love to work with power tools?

(20:53):
This may not be a predictor oftheir sexual orientation, but stereotypes exist and
stereotypes exist because enough examples are noticedthat the culture generalizes it to all members
of the group. You've heard thestereotypes about gay people. Gay men decorate
well, they are cleaner. Gaywomen are handy around the house. Speaking

(21:15):
of that stereotype, I'm a landladyand once I had a gay woman tenant
who owned her own tool belt.She was an amazing tenant, never called
me once for a fix it.I had the good fortune of finding a
tenant who happened to match the stereotype. Okay, hold that thought for a
moment that gender role and gender identityare stereotypically linked to sexual orientation. First,

(21:37):
we need to talk about peacocks.Male pea fowl known as peacocks have
indisputably the most beautiful tales of anybird species. They shimmy and shake it
to a full fan spread of glory. It's three times the size of their
body. The large green and blueplumage, when fully expanded, is a

(21:57):
wonder to behold and a dangerous burdenwhen it comes to fleeing from predators.
Peacocks lug around this enormous tail.They have to procure enough calories to maintain
it and they're at a huge disadvantageagainst those who want to eat them.
In short, their tail has nosurvival value. In fact, it's a

(22:18):
handicap. So why would mother naturehave created it? For one simple reason,
it drives ladies wild enough pea hensshose fancy tailed mates in the past
that the trait became dominant in allmales across the species. It's a big
drag that functions as a chick magnet. Okay, so let's go back to

(22:42):
that stereotype of gay men being cleaner, kinder, more nurturing, and great
housekeepers. Could women have selected themfrom mates because they're prettier a neater.
It's called the beauty happens theory,and it says that females love to select
ornamentation as a signal of good genes. Did enough women choose those quote unquote

(23:03):
gay traits and men because it maderelationships more harmonious, houses easier to tend
to, and children easier to raise? And then homosexual behavior came along for
the ride. Of course, homosexualbehavior might not increase vulnerability to predators like
a peacock's tail does. It's notexactly a handicap until you consider that in

(23:27):
some cultures, people who live openlygay live under a real threat of violence.
We weren't like, you know,acting crazy. We weren't like drinking.
We were just walking back to ourcar after we had a great night
with our friends. That's when theysay a man walked past them saying a
homophobic slur. Next, the manand his group of friends followed the couple,

(23:49):
yelling more expletives than getting violence.And that's when Tristan took the first
punch directly to his face, andthat is what broke his nose. He
took two or three more punches andthen he was down on the ground,
motionless, and he took a veryhard kick to the back of his head.
Spencer says he lunged at the attackers, but they immediately started punching him

(24:11):
in the head, leaving him unconscious. For another theory, let's turn to
ornithologist yes the study of birds,including gay birds, Richard Prom at Yale
University. He believes that same sexrelationships were designed to help females move more

(24:33):
freely and safely, a kind ofprotection for women. Doctor Prom explains this
in his Big Think talk that youcan find on YouTube or read his book
The evolution of beauty and judge foryourself. In the case of female female
sexual relationships, they could contribute tofemale alliances that could protect females from sexual
coercion by male hierarchical groups. Atthe same time, I propose that male

(25:00):
male sexual attraction could have evolved becauseany social situation in which males have multiple
sexual outlets would have contributed to femalefreedom to move among the individuals in that
social system and to avoid coercion andsexual violence. But there's something else about

(25:25):
primates you should know, and thisidea aligns with doctor Prom's idea. We
all practice grooming, whether it's achimpanzee picking insects out of each other's fur,
or the stroking and greening that goeson in every primate social circle,
often in exchange for food. Inmodern humans, this primate grooming habit has
become commercialized in hair salons, nailsalons, barbershops, spas, and massage

(25:51):
parlors, and rather than exchanging food, we give the groomers money to presumably
purchase their own food. And weknow that touch is good for us.
It releases dopamine oxytocin, the bondinghormone, and it lowers cortisol levels and
improves immune function. As silly asit sounds, you've got this new trend
with millennial men of cuddling to mencuddling that have nothing to do with They

(26:15):
are totally boning down with the ladiesor whatever they want to say. But
because they are close with their malefriends, there's an affection level, and
affection can become sexual. Homosexual behaviorcan also be seen as a form of
caregiving, a pleasurable form of groomingin Bonobos, who we share ninety eight
percent of our DNA with, youngfemales often pleasure the older, higher status

(26:38):
females so that when men return withmore protein to the nest, the higher
status women will share. In fact, bonobos are famous for using sex for
just about everything. It's a substitutefor aggression. Bonobos have sex and virtually
every partner combination except close family membersand females use it politically. All this

(27:00):
makes me think about the award winningfilm The Favorite. It is important to
my new friends in court, isit not? Yes? So beautiful?
Stop it up, you mock me. I were a man, I would
ravish here. You have become closeto Abigail. She is a viper.
You're jealous, you send up Agailaway. I did not want to.

(27:21):
The Favorite the story of competitive feudingconsorts of a mentally and physically disabled Queen
Anne, played by Olivia Coleman andYes. In the film, both women
served the Queen sexually. One woman, played by Rachel Weiss, was married
to a military leader and used herfavor with the Queen to sway the war.

(27:41):
The other, played by Emma Stone, had fallen into a lower status
and used her attentions from the Queento elevate herself back into society through the
queen's granting of a wedding to agentleman, a wedding that came with a
royal apartment. In her case,homosexual behavior granted her axe to a higher
status mate for reproduction and increase thechances that she and her offspring would survive.

(28:07):
Were the women in The Favorite gayor did they practice exceptional grooming and
caregiving? Was it simply a caseof situational homosexuality that can increase survival chances?
Think about it. Situational homosexuality hasbeen observed in all kinds of settings
throughout history. Within military ranks,same sex boarding schools, convents, monasteries,

(28:30):
and most notoriously in prisons. Humansare wired to bond. We need
each other or health, safety,and survival. Humans use sex as an
exchange of care as much as aroute to reproduction. Most gay people have
also had some heterosexual behavior. Onlya few are exclusively gay across their entire

(28:56):
lifespan. My husband, for instance, is what we call a gold star.
He is on the extreme end ofthe Ckenzie scale where he's never had
sex with a woman, has nointerest in it. It doesn't cross his
mind, would never cross his mind. I'm not a as a gold card
or a platinum gay if you're familiarwith either of these terms, gold card
meaning that you've never had sex witha woman, Platinum meaning you were born

(29:18):
by cician section, so you've neverhad any proximity to a vagina. I'm
just learning about true bisexuality with somenew friends who are that, and it
really does exist. You know beforeyou always thought, well, is that
just your way of trying to getto the truth or you know, acceptance
that you're really gay? Now,actually it's not. Some people are capable

(29:38):
of loving and having sex with both. Sex with a woman for me is
fulfilling in a more nurturing and softway. There's a different connection. There's
also maybe more abstract, but whenyou're having vaginal sex, there's an intake,
but with a woman it's much softer. There's definitely almost like in the
zones. Maybe not received well,but it's like a mother's embrace. Having

(30:02):
vaginal sex, there's a definite differentemotional connection. And don't forget that some
of the same traits that gay maleshave stereotypically speaking of course, being cleaner,
better groomed, are also traits thatwomen tend to choose for reproduction.
Then it makes sense that gay behaviorwould stay constant in our culture. Finally,

(30:25):
gay as an identity is a relativelynew concept in human evolution. For
centuries, people married and had kidsdespite a grayish sexuality. They didn't necessarily
choose to limit or alter their livesthat much. In fact, today's millennials
see sexuality as something more fluid.I think it's just hard because there's such

(30:47):
pressure to fit yourself into boxes.But reality is not like that. It's
always a gray area. No oneever perfectly fits into a box. There's
a fluidity to sexuality, and itdoesn't matter where you fall on that spectrum.
We're not going to play the Kinseyscale game. But if you are
a man who is masculine identifying andyou find another man attractive, that does

(31:11):
not mean that you're a homosexual.But that doesn't mean that you can't find
him attractive and find some arousal init. It's just one of those spectrum
things. Well, millennials need notworry for long about being forced into a
gay box or a straight box.These days, sexual identity has exploded into
a long list of sexual identity categoriesfor any individual. Take your pick.

(31:34):
There's heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual,pan sexual, polysexual, gay, lesbian,
queer, questioning, a sexual,a romantic. Honestly, I'm not
making this up. Look it up. Why did homosexuality evolve in our species?

(31:56):
Well, whether you subscribe to thehelpful gay aunt or uncle theory,
or the need for someone to fulfillboth gender roles in a sex based division
of labor like the fafafine or thatgay little brother idea phenomenon, or you
get the sex is a behavior usedfor much more than reproduction. It's clear
that there are many many reasons whymother Nature designed us the way she did.

(32:21):
Sex evolved in primates. Not onlyas a mechanism for reproduction, sex
is also an exchange of care.It can grant you access to higher status
mates for reproduction and offspring survival.For all those reasons, not only has
gay survived, maybe it's actually theSurvival of the Gayest. Mating Matters is

(32:51):
produced in partnership with iHeartMedia. Itis researched, interviewed, and written by
me, doctor Wendy Walsh, andit is edited and produced by Brooke Peters.
Follow us on Twitter, Facebook,YouTube and Instagram at doctor Wendy Walsh.
You know, people don't learn aboutpodcasts usually by just searching around.
They learn about a podcast because somebodywho loved that podcast told them about it.

(33:15):
So I encourage you to please subscribe, write a review, and more
than anything, get that share button. Now. Think of somebody who would
like to hear this information as muchas you enjoyed it. Thanks for listening.
I'm doctor Wendy Walsh.