January 30, 2025 • 50 mins
Emily Chappell somewhat inadvertently created a dialogue on body image within the cycling world. After being the first woman across the finish line at the 2016 Transcontinental race, her cycling journey has inspired others to take up the sport as their authentic selves.
In this episode we also talk about
- Emily Chappell's career as a bike messenger, ultra-distance cyclist, and adventurer
- Her cycling trips through Asia and Alaska
- How her honesty about her body image has added representation in the cycling world
- The importance of queer spaces within cycling
- How 'learning out loud' shows the world that everyone is at different parts of their journey
- What's next for Emily?
Other episodes referenced:
- Un-Retiring after a health break with Ellen Noble (https://open.spotify.com/episode/5DM79SEFNIEmPnxycIZueV)
- Jacquelyn Francis rode 600 miles instead of flying to a conference (https://open.spotify.com/episode/3PBHUME3iXtCdx3svGAHq1)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ellen Schwartze (00:00):
Hey Marley!
Marley Blonksy (00:01):
Hey Ellen, happy Friday!
Ellen Schwartze (00:02):
Happy Friday.
We're recording on a Friday and I,it could not have come sooner for me.
It has been a long week.
How are you?
Marley Blonksy (00:09):
I'm okay, it's also been a long week.
Yeah, it's, I'm excitedfor this conversation.
This is going to be a high, ahighlight of my week, I think.
Ellen Schwartze (00:17):
I am really ready to fangirl over Emily Chappell
even though she doesn't want meto because she's a humble person.
I think we should just dive rightin because I'm going to tell
you exactly how cool she is.
And then we will, we'll bring heron to chat more because we've got
such a good conversation lined up.
You
Marley Blonksy (00:36):
That sounds, great.
Ellen Schwartze (00:37):
Okay.
Emily Chappell is an athlete, adventureand award winning author starting her
cycling career is a courier in London.
She is well known as an ultra longdistance adventurer between 2011 and 2013.
She cycled across Asia along the way.
She developed an insatiable curiosityabout the world, its landscapes, and
the people who live there, which hasfueled her escapades ever since, since
(00:59):
returning from that big First adventure.
She has spent more than a decade exploringthe world by bicycle, including winter
crossings of Iceland and North America,enduring temperatures as low as minus 40
Celsius, I'm expecting that to be, whichis very close to minus 40 Fahrenheit, FYI.
And I think we're recording this inJanuary, so a lot of our listeners can
(01:22):
relate to how cold that feels, even
Marley Blonksy (01:24):
And cannot imagine riding a bike in it right now, so I'm going
to ask you about that, not to digress.
Ellen Schwartze (01:29):
maybe we'll get that first.
And rode thousands of miles around theback roads and mountain trails of Europe.
In 2016, she won the prestigioustranscontinental race, riding 4, 000
kilometers from Belgium to Turkeyin under two weeks, self supported.
And since 2017, she led Le Loop,an endurance challenge where
amateur cyclists take on theentire route of the tour to France.
(01:52):
She has published two books about heradventures, writes a weekly newsletter,
and is a popular public speaker, atalented presenter, and an impassioned
advocate for diversity in the outdoors.
Hi Emily!
Emily Chappell (02:02):
Hello.
First of all, can I say thefangirling is totally mutual.
Thank you very much for having me on.
Marley Blonksy (02:08):
Of course, yeah, it's so great to meet you.
I think we came across each otheron Instagram a couple years ago and
I was like, Oh, who's this person?
She's doing cool things.
And now we finally get to the chanceto chat, which is really awesome.
Silence.
Ellen Schwartze (02:40):
was like almost, you had to throw all those to get around
where you wanted to be on a bike.
But yeah, you were one of thepioneers doing the message, bike
messengers and all that stuff.
Emily Chappell (02:51):
I don't think of myself as a pioneer because there's
always someone who came before you.
So when I became a bike Messenger in 2008,I think everyone was saying, Oh man, you
should have been here five years ago.
And the 1990s, that's whenit was really happening.
So I think of myself as a late comer.
And then of course, A decade passesand everyone sees you as a pioneer.
Ellen Schwartze (03:12):
Yeah.
The book was, it had a big receptionwhen it came out, didn't it?
Emily Chappell (03:16):
It did reasonably well.
Two other books came out in the sameyear about being a bike messenger.
They were both, not that'snecessarily relevant.
And I think we, we all did reasonablywell, but I know mine is still selling.
People still, buy it and talkto me about it, which is nice.
Ellen Schwartze (03:30):
I just thought it was really fun.
It was, like, cycling around London,I think, prepared me for being more
of a commuter in other places versusdoing that, the recreation piece of
it, because it was just differenttraffic and different things.
And, in 2015 when I was there,it was like when the cycle
superhighways were just opening.
Not all of them were even built yet.
So it was a bit of a Confidence boosterto be like, yeah, I'm doing this.
(03:53):
I'm here.
Emily Chappell (03:54):
Yeah, I really think London, living in London and
cycling in London, it's kind of.
One of those things that prepares you forthe rest of adult life, whatever you do.
Because my first few years therewere so hard in various ways, I
was so broke and everything wasquite difficult and challenging.
And learning to cycle in London, Ihadn't really cycled much as an adult.
And when you learn to cycle in London,You can handle anything, and I now
(04:18):
think, I tell people, it's kind oflike I jumped in at the deep end before
I could swim, learned to swim there,and only then I drifted over to the
shallow end and realized, oh, I didn'tneed to make it so hard for myself.
I can cycle out of town.
And it's really nice.
I can cycle on bike paths.
I can go to countries andcycle in the mountains.
It doesn't have to be this kind ofconstant video game assault course.
(04:41):
But I did also love it.
As you'll know from the bookI look back on those years as
some of the happiest of my life.
Ellen Schwartze (04:48):
Yeah, same.
And I loved it too witheverything that you, you said.
It's like it doesn't actuallyneed to be that hard, but it
prepares you for anything else.
I feel like you comparing, you sayingthat the mountains were easier or
felt easier than cycling in London is
Emily Chappell (05:02):
I did say that not easier,
Ellen Schwartze (05:04):
Oh, fair.
Emily Chappell (05:05):
Maybe slightly less scary.
Ellen Schwartze (05:07):
There you go.
But that's great.
And so one of the reasons that we reallywanted to chat with you on the all
bodies on bikes podcast specificallyis because if anyone's followed you on
Instagram you are very open about howyou view yourself and your body and
your challenges when it comes to beingin a differently looking body than the
rest of the professional cycling world.
(05:27):
There is this super, super duper greatquote that you wrote in Apidura that said,
Witnessing a body like mine, triumphingover one of the toughest races there
is, referencing the transcontinentalrace, will have quietly nudged a lot of
people's understanding of what a cyclistmight look like, how much body fat an
athlete might have, and how wrong we wereto think that strength must have a size.
(05:51):
Like if we could have rewritten allbodies mantra, I feel like it would
have used many of the same words.
So we wanted to justchat with you about that.
What are your first thoughts on this?
Emily Chappell (06:01):
I guess my first thoughts and I have been chewing
this over my entire adult lifeand sort of talking myself round
to feeling better about myself.
My first thoughts are, actually, therewas never anything wrong with me.
If you look at me in photos,I'm not even that big.
I'm at most medium sized andalso I have a fantastic body.
(06:21):
It's fit, it's strong,it has done so much.
The problem is with fatphobic discourse.
And, oh my god, there is nothing wrongwith me, and I tell myself this all
the time, but I've been told sinceI could remember that there was.
So even though I never, there werenever any problems with my body, I grew
(06:43):
up thinking, knowing that there were.
And I'm kind of quite angry about thatbecause I've had to, overcome all this
stuff that was completely made up,I shouldn't have had to overcome it.
It wasn't even there.
I didn't even have any problems.
I actually could have been, I'vebeen quite successful, but you know,
Ellen Schwartze (07:01):
a little
Marley Blonksy (07:03):
I think that's so relatable though.
And as I don't want to say I came toprominence, but as I became like a
bigger name in the cycling community,I heard from more and more pros
like yourself who, by all objectivemeasures don't have large bodies.
However, the narrative that'sfed to you either through popular
media or through the sportingworld is that your body is too big.
And so I don't know if you're You'veencountered that among other professional
(07:26):
cyclists and other folks doing thework that you're doing, but I can tell
you, it is not uncommon lots of womenin the pro peloton fight those same
battles and those same narratives andit's really it's disturbing because your
body, like you said, it's perfect, it'sbeautiful, it's strong, it carried you
across many, not millions, but many milesand kilometers and all sorts of stuff.
(07:49):
Silence.
You
Emily Chappell (08:19):
look, okay, you need to keep your body strong.
And I was never trying to perform atthe, the top end of professional sport.
Ultra racing is very different.
And to be honest, I think one ofthe reasons I did so well in it.
is that I have a very good digestivesystem, I can eat very large
amounts and process them quite well.
And I've managed somehow to dodgethe worst of the sort of food issues
(08:42):
that a lot of people end up with.
When I'm off privately on my own and noone can see me and judge how much ice
cream I'm eating, I can just go for it.
And then I can sprintup a 20 percent hill.
And, we talk about the physiologicaladvantages our body has.
I think that's one of the greatunsung ones in endurance sports is
being able to process a lot of food.
Marley Blonksy (09:04):
Definitely.
And maybe this might be wrong,but my friends, I see what ultra
endurance cyclists eat when theyare out on these adventures.
And a lot of times it's whateveryou can find at a gas station.
Sometimes it'll be things thatyou've packed, but it's not
often the most nutritious food.
So what you're sayingis definitely important.
I know I have challengesdigesting large amounts of food.
(09:26):
And that's fueling properly.
I don't do distances nearly whatyou were doing, but I'm training
for a hundred mile race right now.
And it's a proper distance,but making sure I'm fueling
properly is a huge part of it.
And that's a big challenge for sure.
Emily Chappell (09:39):
Yeah, definitely.
And I think of myself, I'm abit like a multi fuel stove.
I could burn anything, butI'd rather burn the good stuff
and perform better if I can.
So, there's this kind ofstereotype that ultra cyclists
are just living off McDonald'severywhere, which sometimes happens.
But also, a lot of my memories of raceslike the Transcontinental are stopping at
(10:00):
roadside fruit stalls and getting a kiloof cherries and eating them as I go along.
a supermarket where I can get freshfruit and veg and, drinking litres
of orange juice and things like that.
And then also eating loads ofchocolate and cake and whatever else.
And I think, I don't know, it's oneof the things I really like about
my body that I've managed to developquite a good relationship with what
(10:21):
it likes to eat and what it wants.
And it's been a long journey.
It's been my, most of my life,but I now eat very intuitively.
And so one or two days a month,my body really wants to eat junk.
And I think fine.
You don't normally, but thisseems to be what you want.
And then a few days later,it's back on, whatever.
Marley Blonksy (10:39):
That's brilliant.
, Ellen Schwartze: When I learned about intuitive eating, that was
one of the things that I noticedis you have to listen to what
your body is actually telling you.
If you are craving chocolate,it wants chocolate.
It doesn't want the almonds that havethe same thing as chocolate in them,
according to the nutrition blogs.
It's like it wants chocolatefor whatever reason it is.
And so listening to that was always,again, once I started to, it's that
(11:00):
is what is now satisfying to me.
It's what made my braincalm down in order to.
Keep moving on like on to thenext like 10 minutes of my day.
Emily Chappell (11:08):
I think this is another Example though of how, society has just
consistently told us we're wrong becauseuntil quite recently I always knew that I
ate too much because that's just, that'swhat everybody said, I was always warned
as a child to eat less, the amount I atewas problematic, people would comment
on it, I would eat in secret, I meanI've never, I've never eaten Too much,
(11:31):
but I felt self conscious about it.
And of course, especially in theworld we live in, a lot of women
actually don't eat very much becausethey have been brought up to eat.
Not very much.
Are they brought up to.
be on a permanent diet and all of that.
And it's only in recent years thatI've realized actually, I've always
(11:52):
eaten, scare quotes too much, butI've maintained a consistent size.
I've performed very well.
There's nothing wrong with my body.
It's actually very healthy.
Could I, in fact, beeating the right amount?
Could it be?
But the myth of what womenare supposed to eat is wrong.
Or maybe just, everyone elsedoesn't need to eat as much as me.
But the amount of effort andtime it took to unlearn that.
(12:15):
Again, I'm amazed.
I'm also quite angry becausewhat a waste of energy.
Marley Blonksy (12:19):
you
Ellen Schwartze (12:34):
my body, it's going to be this shape.
I can make it stronger.
I can make it, I can not exerciseand it'll do different things,
but like the food and the sizewere unrelated, even though.
Society was saying it shouldbe related, or, and I should be
working towards a different shape.
I think it's really important, and Ithink, too there's this representation
(12:55):
of you just saying that out loud,as someone who is, professional, if
you don't want to, professional orprofessional adjacent, of saying this
is how it is and my body is strong, canhelp more people get into the sport.
Emily Chappell (13:07):
I hope so, because there are fewer, I'm not going
to call myself a large person.
There are fewer, slightlylarger people in the sport.
There's still loads and loadsof very small women in cycling.
And in many cases that's their body type.
It's fine.
But I think people get scaredoff because they think, Oh,
I'm going to be the large one.
Even when these people arenot actually that large.
(13:29):
And I.
I don't like being the one who stands out.
People do just make occasional commentsand some of them are favourable.
I'm, people say I'm so gladto see, quotes, a normal
looking woman in this sport.
I think, yeah, okay, you mean aslightly larger looking woman.
I really don't want tobe like that one person.
It's self conscious.
(13:50):
I'm not that confident.
But I know that if I saw that personit would help and I think hopefully
it will help some other people and youknow If that has to be me fine, but
hopefully one day it won't be one day.
There'll be loads of us
Marley Blonksy (14:04):
I want you to come.
Okay.
Thank you.
Two.
So there's an event coming up in theUnited States called Mid South Gravel,
and there's going to be like 50, if notmore, all bodies on bikes folks there.
And all, almost all ofus are in larger bodies.
And I I don't know where I'mgoing with this except to say
that I think you're right.
There are more and moreof us getting into this.
And obviously gravel is differentthan ultra endurance, and each
(14:26):
genre of cycling, different bodytypes excel at different sports.
I will never be in the road Peloton,but I can race gravel all day long.
But I think you're exactly right, Emily.
It's hard to be kind of thetoken big person that people look
to and say, Oh, if she's doingit, that means I can do it too.
But I.
I want you to rest assured thatI think you have been a, like a
(14:48):
shining beacon for a lot of folks.
And there are more and more peopleof different sizes and shapes
getting into this and saying,yeah, this is a great sport for me.
So you definitely helpedblaze that trail a little bit.
Emily Chappell (14:58):
As very much thank you
Marley Blonksy (15:01):
Of course.
Ellen Schwartze (15:01):
Marley, like even within, if you think of the Tour de France,
like there are different people win themountain stages than the straightaways
because they've got different skill, likedifferent muscles that they've trained.
I think his name isn'tit Quintano from Ecuador?
It's like when he stood,he won a mountain stage.
I'd never heard of him before, butthe reason I remember him is because
his quads are like wider than hisbody and it's at least at the time.
(15:23):
And.
It was just like, yeah,like this guy's a climber.
It's what his body respondedto and what he enjoyed doing.
And that's just a part of it.
Emily Chappell (15:32):
It's something that I have really enjoyed in all the
different disciplines of cycling I'vedone and which maybe you'll relate to
is doing all these different thingsand learning what your body's good at
And you don't know that until you justspend a lot of time doing something.
A few years ago, I was doing a racein Yorkshire, a sort of mountain
bike gravel race over a few days.
(15:54):
And I remember one morning, I'd wokenup in my sleeping bag somewhere, it was
foggy, I'd just ridden up a really steephill and then I had to drag my bike
through this acres and acres of bog andI remember just trudging along with my
heavy bike and just suddenly realizingthis is great I'm actually having a
really good time I've no idea why but Ifeel like I'm really suited to this and
(16:16):
you know when you're good at somethingAnd when you enjoy doing it, that's
a really satisfying experience and Iwouldn't have had that if I hadn't, got
into cycling and by a circuitous routeended up a hill in a bog in Yorkshire.
And I think when you go out thereand you start doing things on a bike
and you explore different things.
You broaden your sense of yourself andyou broaden your sense of your abilities
(16:39):
and everything you do, every differentthing you do, you sort of learn little
lessons that you could take into otherareas of your life or you just gain a
better sense of your own capability.
Ellen Schwartze (16:50):
I think this is actually something that both of you do really
well is the learning out loud part ofall of this, like taking a minute to
have a post about how this was a lightbulb moment for me, And here's why.
Or even, when it comes to bodyissues, explaining to the world, yes,
I am confident in my body and hereare the steps I took to get there.
(17:11):
I think you both do that superwell and I think you both
recognize the importance of that.
Marley Blonksy (17:16):
Thank you.
Emily Chappell (17:17):
a really good way of putting it actually.
I hadn't actually heard.
Anyone say learning out loud before?
Because I sometimes feel a bit conflictedabout, all of social media and all the big
conversations we're all having constantly.
Because there's this tendency forpeople to start becoming, it's very easy
for people to start becoming a guru.
And as soon as they've learned a lessonthemselves, they're like, okay, I'm
(17:39):
going to give you this post on how tobe, body confident or whatever it is.
And you think they're just figuringout themselves, We don't need to treat
this person as an expert, but I thinkwhat I hadn't thought is it's really
valuable to watch somebody in real time.
And in my case, in decades and decadesof real time, gradually figuring
(17:59):
things out and giving you things youcan perhaps take away and relate to.
Ellen Schwartze (18:03):
Yeah, we had a great conversation with Ellen Noble,
but she retired focused on healthissues and then Unretired, but she.
mentioned that she unretired likeat the start of her retraining
journey, not say like she didn'tcome out after having trained and
here I'm doing a race next week.
And same.
It was really important to her becauseshe kind of hadn't seen that before to
(18:25):
say there's more to it than unretiring.
And now I'm a pro again, there's,today winning for me is 20 minutes
on the bike, 30 minutes on the bike.
And I think again, it's just, it'sa really good way for people to see.
that you can do it too.
It is a process no matter what it is.
It's not Emily was born on theside of a mountain and handed a
(18:46):
bike and then she made it up theside, like when she was three.
She worked really hard to get there.
And here's been the journey.
Marley Blonksy (18:55):
I would actually love to kind of talk about
that journey a little bit.
How did you go from being acourier in London to getting into
the transcontinental where youdecide you're going to ride your
bike across the entire continent?
What happened there?
Emily Chappell (19:09):
I think being a courier was the first big step really.
So before that, I, got into cycling acouple of years before that as a commuter.
And I really was.
not very active before that.
So the big change was when I wasabout 24 and I got into cycling in
London and all of a sudden I wentfrom a person who just sat still.
Most of the time didn't really thinkabout her body at all to someone who
(19:32):
was obsessed with being on my bike asmuch as possible and that obsession just
grew and then I found out about thesecycle careers and oh my god, they're so
cool and Really wanted to be one becameone Successfully for the first time in
my life was cool enjoyed it and Afterthat, I was so happy being a courier.
(19:56):
I just wanted to do it all the time.
I knew I couldn't do it forever.
I knew it was unrealistic to dothis kind of sub minimum wage
job for more than a few years.
But I knew that when I stopped, I wouldhave to go back to normal life, and, I'd
get less fit, I wouldn't have as much timeto cycle, probably get back problems, have
a boring office job, and I just imaginedlife would go back into black and white.
(20:18):
And I really didn't want that to happen.
And then, I after maybe three years on theroad, the long story is I had a summer of
not really knowing what I was going to do.
I'd given up on my academic plans.
And
it a lot.
And I went in, moaning andcomplaining about this stupid
(20:41):
bike that was always breaking.
And one of the people behind the countersaid, Look, Emily, you know you cycle
hundreds of miles a week, of course yourbike's going to be breaking all the time.
And I thought, Oh yeah fair enough.
And I wrote home thinking, I guess Iprobably do ride hundreds of miles a week.
I hadn't really thought about it before.
I wonder how many hundreds ofmiles, thousands of miles I must've
(21:02):
done since I started this job.
And if you stretch that out, I've justbeen riding around in circles in central
London, but if you stretch that out, howmany times around the world would that be?
And that was when this veryobvious idea occurred to me.
And the next thing I was goingto do was cycle around the world.
And I didn't cycle all the wayaround the world in the end.
I set out and it was like,an open ended long journey.
(21:24):
I prepared for it for over ayear and I planned to just.
be on the road for years and years, maybethree, four years, as long as it took.
And then after 18 months of crossingAsia, I'd had an amazing time.
I'd really enjoyed myself, but I justgot to the point where I was tired
and needed to be at home for a bit.
(21:46):
And as soon as I was on the road, thesort of the completionist aspect of the
journey, the sort of, you must Do anunbroken line around the world and never
stop just seemed really irrelevant.
I think it only seemedimportant before I started.
So that was the Asia ride.
And then I think I was just alwayslooking for bigger challenges.
You could probably argue that I wastrying to prove something I almost
(22:08):
certainly was because I was a nerdy kid.
I was not fit.
I was not strong I was not cool And Ithink there was this myth in my family
that I was a bit vague and useless becauseI was always you know Head in a book So I
think I was trying to really inscribe thisnew version of my personality and then
yeah But in fact this time ten years ago,I was doing my big ride from Anchorage to
(22:30):
Seattle So round about now I would havebeen I think crossing the border into
the Yukon and yeah, it was very cold.
Kind of a step up from what I'd donebecause, I'd spent 18 months on the road.
I'd been through all sorts of landscapes,different climates, different cultures.
And I thought, okay Iknow I'm doing let's.
(22:50):
Try and increase the difficulty a bit.
increase the difficulty a bit.
Um,
Ellen Schwartze (22:55):
Choose to be in Alaska in January on purpose or is
that just when your time off fell?
Emily Chappell (23:02):
No, I did.
I did.
So I planned, I had actually plannedto go immediately after Japan
straight to Alaska and start then.
But as I said, I neededto go home for a bit.
Went home spent two years at home.
Went back on the road as acourier and planned for this trip.
And I really wanted to do it inwinter, because I'd enjoyed the
(23:24):
winter cycling I'd done thus far.
I say this now, of course, we allknow the concept of type 2 fun.
It was awful at thetime, quite constantly.
My water froze, it was terrible, Ididn't sleep at night, it was so cold.
But I prepared better for the Alaska trip.
I had quite good kit, I'dspoken to a lot of people.
Because I was scared, like minus 40.
(23:46):
is, I couldn't imagine it.
So I got in touch with loads andloads of people who'd done similar
things or who lived in the area.
I knew what I needed, and I was stillscared, but I could tell myself no, you've
prepared, you've got all the right kit.
And honestly, it was beautiful.
It was so beautiful.
Being out there, almostcompletely on my own, because
(24:07):
it's very quiet there in winter.
on this white road because it's justcovered in compacted snow with these
dark forests either side and theeffect of the snow on the landscape
is sort of muffling so the acousticswere different so there were days it
felt like riding through a stage setor something and then One of the great
unsung glories of winter bike touring isyou get to sleep for a really long time.
(24:32):
Because it would get dark at, Idon't know four o'clock or something.
So I'd stop, because itgot cold when it got dark.
So I'd stop just before it got dark, I'dput my tent up, and then I'd spend, I
don't know, like 12, 14 hours in my tent.
I'd fall asleep immediatelybecause it was quite hard.
cycling a heavy bike in the cold all day.
And then I'd wake up for a bitin the night, which is what we, I
(24:53):
think, biologically are programmedto do, or would have done back in
the day before electric lights.
And I, I'd sleep deeply, I'd snooze.
I daydream, and I just feelready to get up in the morning.
And that was really nice.
I,
Ellen Schwartze (25:09):
Sounds magical.
Emily Chappell (25:10):
yeah, it was wonderful.
And yes, it was sometimes horribly,painfully, frighteningly cold.
It was beautiful.
The scenery.
I saw mountains every single day.
Sometimes I had to go up parts ofthem, which was hard, but I liked it.
I was riding a bike, a fat bike thatweighed about Not somewhere north of
50 kilos and I felt weak and tired andslow the whole time, but Afterwards
(25:36):
when I got on a carbon road bike,it turned out I'd become very strong
Worth it And yeah, I mean I didn't want itto end it was three months Which I think
is the perfect length of trip really it'slong enough to be properly away But not
so long that you kind of lose your gripon anything, because I think the Asia
trip had been a bit too long, really.
(25:58):
And then at the end of the trip, I cameround the side of the mountains and cycled
into Vancouver on what felt like thefirst day of spring, there was blossom
everywhere, and it honestly felt likeI'd ridden through so much winter and
here I was just riding into a new season.
It was wonderful.
It was, I think, one ofthe high points of my life.
(26:20):
And then, yes, it was after thatI got into ultra distance racing.
Ellen Schwartze (26:26):
I think this has answered half of one of the questions
I had wanted to ask you, which iswhat's the trip you talk about when
you want people to understand how muchyou love this ultra endurance riding.
The second half of that question is,what's the ride you point to when you want
someone to have a realistic view of this?
If someone's truly saying, I want to goout and do this, what's the trip you point
(26:47):
to that is indicative of the challengethat you're truly gearing up for?
Emily Chappell (26:52):
Do you mean effectively what's the bad side?
Ellen Schwartze (26:55):
Basically, yeah.
What you just painted is like, I'msitting here maybe I should book
a trip to Alaska and I'm in no wayprepared for this, but I think I'm
wondering what the full picture is.
Emily Chappell (27:07):
I don't think there's any one ride.
I could probably So any ride I'vedone, any trip, any race, there's
always been good bits and bad bits.
It's more just like how bad were thebad bits and how often did they happen?
I think there was a race I did in 2017called the Transatlantic Way, which goes
around most of the coast of Ireland.
(27:27):
And I was not in a good way at the time.
I'd lost a friend recently, so Iwas in hindsight still grieving.
And.
The weather was unbelievably bad.
Irish weather is something quite special.
I've never been into wind so strong.
Ellen Schwartze (27:42):
yes.
Yes.
Emily Chappell (27:56):
you could never escape the wind.
You might have it behind you sometimes,but any minute now you were going
to do a 180 and go back inland andit would be in your face again.
But also it meant thatprogress was very slow.
So if I ever looked at the map to see howfar I'd come in like a week or something,
it would look like nothing because Ihadn't really made very much progress
south because I'd been so busy wigglingaround all these different peninsulas.
(28:20):
And yes, I just remember all ofthat time just wanting to stop.
It was seemed to be all I thought about.
I thought this must be whatpeople think it's like.
It's just really hard.
And I had a lot of faith by then becauseI'd done so much of this sort of cycling.
And It's good and it's bad but mostly Ilove it and I also know that if you keep
(28:44):
going you tend to feel better eventuallyand you might suddenly get another burst
of energy and be racing along singingand think I can't believe I felt so
bad two hours ago I feel wonderful nowI know it won't last but still but I
think that race I just mostly felt bad.
I finally stopped when Istarted to feel good again.
I don't remember the psychology of it, butI had a good climb, and I actually felt
(29:05):
strong and happy again, and I think I justthought, okay, I know I can still do this.
I know I've got it, but that'sbeen a lot of suffering.
I think I'll call it a day now.
Marley Blonksy (29:13):
Yeah you, you said something in there that I want to
pull out because it's advice that Igive to folks too is that, anything
you're experiencing is temporary.
If you're sad.
Eat a snack and it's going to get better.
Especially with long distance cyclingevents, like it is a continual process
and things are constantly changing.
And I just love how you, you explainedthat of, you, you felt strong and then
you felt sad and then you felt happyand that's exactly what it's all about.
Emily Chappell (29:36):
Yeah, it's something I've learned again and again But the
thing I now often realize is it'sall very well knowing that but it
doesn't make the bad moments any better
Marley Blonksy (29:46):
No.
Emily Chappell (29:47):
I tend to go into it right thinking.
Ah I'm a very experienced now, soI'll be fine But if you're riding
100 miles, it's always hard.
And I've so often now, I've gone intosomething thinking, Oh, I'll be fine.
I'm Emily Chappell.
And then I have an awful time.
And I think I was unprepared for this.
I didn't realize it could be so bad.
I thought I was on top of this.
So I think that's, maybe that'snot the inspirational lesson I
(30:11):
need to be giving people, but
Ellen Schwartze (30:13):
I think that's exactly it.
Marley Blonksy (30:16):
I think it's relatable because, when I get, for me, it's usually
about mile 30 when I start to realize,Oh my God, I have to do the equivalent
of what I just did two more times.
And then I get to mile 60 andI'm like, Oh, I'm almost done.
So I think hearing that somebodywho is as accomplished as you are
also experiences those self doubtsand those, moments of questioning is
really humanizing and really relatable.
(30:37):
So I think it's perfectlyfine to tell people that.
Emily Chappell (30:40):
I hope so.
I don't think it will ever go away.
I think if you're having a, you're on along ride and you're feeling terrible.
You are completely correct,but you will get through it.
Marley Blonksy (30:49):
Exactly, yeah.
I want to switch gears a little bit,because you're a very multifaceted
person and one of the areasthat you've talked about is your
queerness and your queer identityand the intersectionality of that.
And so there's a scene in your firstbook where your queer life and your
cycling life, which had been kindof running parallel to each other
and not really intersecting witheach other, they kind of collided.
Since then, and I understand thatwas a while ago have those parts
(31:11):
of your life Are they still kind ofseparate and exist independently?
Or have you been ableto blend them together?
And what other ways doesintersectionality play into your life?
Emily Chappell (31:22):
It's a great question, actually.
And I really love that youreferenced that bit from the book.
We probably don't have time for me toread it out or anything, but for anyone
Marley Blonksy (31:30):
tell us the story!
For folks who haven't readit, tell us the story.
Emily Chappell (31:33):
I'll try and, I've never actually told it, I've only written it.
I'll try and tell it quickly.
It was just basically, I had, I wascouriering, I'd been sent out to a
certain address to deliver a packageor pick something up or something.
And my rim had just blown out.
in my my front wheel.
And as anyone knows, if that'shappened to you, it's not only quite
(31:54):
scary and mine happened in a tunnel.
So instead of just goingbang, it kind of went boom,
Marley Blonksy (31:59):
Oh my god.
Emily Chappell (32:01):
the bomb had gone off.
Like the cars all swerved and everything,no one knew what had happened.
So I Walked the bike out of, becausethe, the rim had pinged, so the
wheel wouldn't even go around, soI had to walk the bike out as well.
Into this, sort of, it was likea big industrial sort of fire
station, I was delivering,because I had to get a signature.
So I walked in, there was a fireengine there, there was a guy and
(32:22):
he said, Oh yeah go round the front,the woman there will sort you out.
I thought, Oh.
Poor woman.
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
And I walked around the frontof the engine, with my bike on
my shoulder and my package undermy arm and I walked into this
incredibly hot firefighter.
She was gorgeous.
She had crew cut likekind of tanned, muscled.
(32:46):
She was, I would have beenlate 20s, so she might have
been early 40s, I don't know.
She was older and just looked really cool.
And I think she lookedup and was like, oh, hi.
Oh, you're not what I was expecting.
And we just had this, as I rememberit, this moment where, all we
had to do was I had to say here'sa package, please sign for it.
But we spun it out and it was just like,it was the most flirt I'd ever been.
(33:14):
Nothing is gonna liveup to this, 45 seconds.
My cycling friends, I was like, Oh myGod, let me tell you about the time that
I, my rim blew out and I was in a tunnel.
I had to walk for miles and veryfew people were cyclists and
also queer and kind of got tohear both versions, but actually.
Marley Blonksy (33:33):
Silence.
Emily Chappell (34:03):
parallel rails that never met.
And it's only in recent years that there'sjust been this kind of upswelling of
various sorts of diversity in cycling.
And it's Wonderful.
Like just last weekend I went outfor a ride with like a dozen other
(34:23):
queer people because there's a groupin Sheffield where I live called Peak
Queer Adventures and they do variousthings but they'd organized a ride and
I mean I've written thousands of wordstrying to explain why it means so much
to be able to ride with other queerpeople because Why does it matter?
We just want to ride bikes, but it reallydoes and I'm not going to try and explain
(34:46):
it all because I do think I would taketoo long and this is a podcast, not a, but
Ellen Schwartze (34:50):
say I would say we have time and we have an acute There's
a cute interest in this particularintersection, so if you would like
to take the time, you're welcome to.
Emily Chappell (34:58):
well let's see where I get with it because I.
I have tried to explain this in thepast and I just haven't quite put my
finger on it, but I think for one thingwhen I very first came out and when
I first moved to London and I wantedto make queer friends The only thing
you could do really was go to bars.
And I don't mind going to bars, butit's just not what I would normally do.
I wouldn't go there if I wasn'tlooking to meet queer friends.
(35:20):
And I just think, what's thelikelihood of you making your
friends for life in an environmentthat is not where you feel at home?
And now I think, anyone coming out now,if you're into cycling, You can go and
ride with the queer cyclists, and youget to continue to do the thing you
want, and you get to make queer friends,and you're not in an environment where
(35:43):
everyone's trying to hook up, which maybe what you're after, but may also not be.
So there's that, and There's thegreat comfort of just being able to
be a particular version of yourselfand not have to worry that it's
going to be taken the wrong way.
Going for a ride with other queer people.
It's great, because you knowthat you can just stop worrying
(36:03):
about all of that stuff.
If you want to go on and on aboutbeing gay for three and a half
hours the entire ride, you can.
But also, if you don't want to, youdon't have to, and no one is the gay one.
And that is really nice.
And One of the things I've reallyenjoyed, so I work with various brand
partners and please understand that whenI mention my brand partners, I'm not
(36:24):
doing so in any way to promote them.
You can choose which products you wantto buy and I don't care, but I do kind
of have to give a bit of a shout outto particular people at Rapha who have
made the whole I don't know, the wholevibe of Rapha, so much more welcoming
than I ever thought was possible.
(36:45):
So when I first started cyclingmost of cycling was, like
tall, buff, middle aged men.
Nothing like me, with the resultthat I actually now get on very well
with tall middle aged men becauseI've met so many of them, I actually
have got a lot in common with them.
And then, it was, ah, maybe threeyears ago we did a big event in London.
(37:08):
hosted by Rapha and they invitedme to interview Lael Wilcox, who
is the Taylor Swift of bikepacking.
And it was, as you'dimagine, a sellout event.
And she is also, she's married to a woman.
It was two non straight women.
sitting up at the front of ahuge crowd of cycling fans.
(37:28):
I remember at one point I asked her somequestion about, being out in cycling
and I said, look, queer women kind ofrun the cycling industry, don't they?
And I, I loved it becausethere were cheers from three
different parts of the room.
And then it was actually the followingday when people put up photos of this.
And it sort of goes back a little bitto what we were saying before about
(37:48):
Not necessarily wanting to be the onewho represents, but someone has to.
Ellen Schwartze (37:52):
Okay.
Emily Chappell (38:22):
would have blown me away.
I can't believe that this has happened.
There's so much wrong in the world.
There's so much wrongin the cycling industry.
There's so far we have to go in somany ways, but actually in my life,
this is unprecedented and I stillhaven't put my finger on why it
means so much, but it really does.
(38:44):
And I had a conversation shortlyafter that with the, my main
contact at Rapha, who's also queer.
And I sort of mentioned thisto her and she said, Oh no,
we want you to be yourself.
Please be it more.
This is, we want people to seethat you can be whatever it is
you are and be a Rapha person.
This works for us.
(39:05):
And it was that and it was talkingabout the body image stuff that
I had thought would just make mea pariah in the cycling world.
And I think this particularmoment came where everyone was
ready and I was ready to say it.
And you know what, I mean there's so muchdepressing stuff going on in the world.
(39:25):
I really like to cling tothis one positive plot strand.
For some queer people, somethings are getting better.
And in the world I operate in, Thingsare improving and I get to be part of it.
It's so partial, butthere is at least that.
Ellen Schwartze (39:43):
I think it's a good message for us
to take away with right now.
It's that as much as the worldfeels heavy, there are bright
lights among everything.
I think that's what we love.
That's what I love about doing thework with All Bodies on Bikes too, and
finding ways to do our little bitty bits.
Here and there, the bitty bits addup, and to your point, someone is
(40:04):
seeing you, and they are having themoment that you wish you had ten
years ago, and they're seeing it now.
And I always think of that, too,as even with education or science,
it's the building blocks have gottenus this far, and that means that
the next new person gets to startat the top of the building blocks.
Emily Chappell (40:20):
And you know what?
Imagine where they willbe in ten years time.
Ellen Schwartze (40:23):
Exactly.
Emily Chappell (40:24):
This is something I love as well.
In ten years time, it won't need to be me.
Some people won't remember me, butthere will be some new amazing person
who has done more than I ever could.
Ellen Schwartze (40:35):
Yeah.
And to kind of bring it full circle,like you said at the top, to me, it's
I found you as the pioneer and you'resitting here saying, no, there was
someone before me there will be someoneafter you as well, who's going to pick
up this baton, or I guess cycling doesn'thave batons, but you run sometimes.
And takes it forward and forward.
Maybe Marley, is that you?
I think it's you.
Marley Blonksy (40:53):
Maybe I don't know.
That's it's quite the shoes tofill, but I would be honored
to continue to carry the torch.
Emily Chappell (40:59):
Oh, I think you've always carried a bigger torch than me.
Just keep going.
Shine your light wherever you can.
Marley Blonksy (41:05):
I try you had a post recently about e bikes that
I absolutely loved and about how,a two hour e bike ride can be
just as restorative as couch time.
And we're huge fans of e bikeshere at all bodies on bikes.
But have you gotten any pushbackfrom that or has anything, I don't
know where my question's going onthis, except that I love your post.
Ellen Schwartze (41:24):
I'll add to this as for some context is that, so we did our
Festivus episode where people calledin to air their grievances and one of
them was just, it's e bikes in thisspace are still sometimes getting flack
because it feels like the easy way outor like an, a crutch and not a, not
something that's moving us forward.
So that's where, again,I saw your post too.
And I was like, this is super cool.
(41:46):
This is such a great example of howe bikes are a part of this world.
Emily Chappell (41:52):
Yeah I haven't had very much pushback.
Maybe one or two isolated comments,but also I think everything I'm
saying about e bikes is quitelet me tell you about e bikes.
I was a slow adopter, asI am with most things.
And I wasn't against e bikes,I was just against them for me.
And I think one of the things thatactually brought me around was I did
a project last year with a man calledEd Clancy, who is I think Britain's
(42:14):
most successful Olympian ever.
He has loads of gold medals.
He was a track cyclist and he,he's still, phenomenally fit, but
he rides an e bike and loves it.
And we did this ride over three days wherefor some reason he was on an e bike and I
was not, seemed like the wrong way around.
I learned I just had to govery fast because if I went far
(42:34):
fast, his motor would cut outbecause it has a speed limiter.
And then he'd be a realdisadvantage on a very heavy bike.
So that was my strategy.
But yeah, seeing this guy who is, interms of the mainstream hierarchy of
cycling, he is right at the top andhe was on an e bike and loving it.
and didn't care and goes on andon about how great e bikes are.
(42:56):
And that helped, I think, thathelped me realize that, okay,
I could ride an e bike as well.
And I've had health problemsthe last couple of years.
So I had COVID over two years ago now.
And since then I've had basicallyI've had long COVID not as bad a
version of it as some people have,because I still am exercising.
Whether or not I shouldbe, is another matter.
(43:17):
But I am doing a lot lessthan I than I used to.
And I have good days and bad days.
And, yeah, the e bike is wonderful.
It's wonderful.
And in all sorts of ways that Ihadn't really anticipated, like
it, I know e bikes are quiteexpensive and they're quite a big
investment for a lot of people.
And it seems really silly to say, but yes,even just the psychological advantage,
(43:40):
but there's a huge psychologicaladvantage because, I can go out for a
couple of hours and I don't have to usethe motor, but I can set off saying if
it turns out that I'm not up to ridingfor a couple of hours, I can put it in
turbo to get home, I can go further thanI would have, because I don't have to
worry that I'm suddenly going to gettired and get stranded or anything.
(44:03):
And most of the time, if I've decided togo out for two hours, I go out for two
hours, I don't need to use the motor.
But knowing I have itthere is a huge advantage.
And, yeah, sometimes I'm very tired.
Sometimes I wouldn't go out, but if Ican go out on an e bike, then I would.
I've met lots of other e bikers.
I've met quite a few people, oftenolder people who say I, I got my e
(44:25):
bike and it meant I rode loads more andthen I got fitter and then I started
riding my other bike again and nowI can get up hills I never got up.
And also, people who like me havedeveloped various levels of chronic
illness and they want to keep cycling.
But they just can't do what they didbefore and it means that they can
because there's so much that we get fromriding bikes and this is what I realize.
(44:49):
Yes, I love being fit and fast andstrong and you know doing ultra distance
races but I also love being outdoorsand I also love exploring and I also
love just riding along and thinkingmy thoughts and I also love You know,
going up and down hills and enjoyingthe landscape and seeing the scenery.
(45:12):
And, we all, I think, could make longlists of the things we get out of cycling.
And you don't get allof them from every ride.
And, the rides I do on an e bike.
I'm not really exercising my top endfitness, but I think that's okay.
Marley Blonksy (45:27):
It 100 percent is.
I recently had knee surgery and I'm slowlygetting back into riding and the e bike,
let me go on, like a friend had a groupride for their birthday a couple of weeks
ago and it let me join in because I knewthat I wouldn't be able to keep up with
them on my regular bike post knee surgery.
But on my e bike, I was able to hangout with them and have a great time.
So I, you're exactly right.
It opens doors and it makes it so thatwe can keep riding kind of regardless
(45:50):
of what else is going on in our lives.
Emily Chappell (45:53):
Yeah, I think for me, one of the, one of the things I miss
currently about, Doing the really longstuff is starting in the dark, riding
through the sunrise, being out all day,coming back after sunset and feeling
like I've really seen a lot of the world.
And I haven't yet done abig ride like that on the e
bike, but I absolutely could.
(46:14):
And it wouldn't matter if I wasn'tfit enough or strong enough or well
enough to ride a hundred miles.
I could still do it and Icould have those moments.
Marley Blonksy (46:23):
we interviewed a woman earlier this summer who
went on a bike tour but it was a300 mile or something journey, or
maybe a, I think it was a 600 mile
Ellen Schwartze (46:30):
I think it's 600
Marley Blonksy (46:31):
So it's, the one thing she mentioned, and I'm sure you're aware of
this Emily, is it just takes more planningin terms of where you stop, where you
recharge your e bike, and you don't quitehave the flexibility of, oh, this looks
like a great place to set up my tent.
You're kind of lookingfor that electricity.
Emily Chappell (46:46):
Yeah that's always a concern,
Ellen Schwartze (46:47):
is there anything on the horizon for you as far as rides?
I know that you just mentionedthat you're focused on health
and you're in a different spotthan you have been in the past.
So what's the next amountof time look like for you?
Emily Chappell (47:00):
One of, one of the factors of of having this sort of
puzzling health condition is I can'treally make plans I'm having to be
quite flexible in what I plan to do.
I've got loads of things I wantto do next year but probably some
of them are not going to happen.
I'm hoping I will get to go andride the route of the Women's
Tour de France because it's justsuch a good route this year.
(47:23):
Pretty much every stage is going to bereally nice so I'm gonna try and ride
that and then another thing I reallywant to do is more volunteering and
more helping out because I have hadSo much help and support from people
when I've been doing events and whenI've been touring and all of that.
(47:44):
And also it's, I don't know, I getasked a lot who's your top cycling hero?
And I just don't know what to say.
There are so many people it'sreally hard to pick just one.
And I'm always worriedI'll forget someone.
And then.
It was a few years ago now, I suddenlyrealised, the real cycling heroes are
the people who are doing the daily,weekly, grassroots, teaching kids,
(48:11):
helping refugees to ride bikes, doingcharity work, working in bike shops, doing
community work, and often this work It'srepetitive, potentially fairly boring.
These people are not getting thebig product deals and they're
not writing books and no one is,occasionally there's an award.
(48:32):
People who do things like thatare doing far more than I'm doing.
I just kind of, I know thatwhat I do has value, but.
I very much admire people likethat who give so much of their
time and so much of their energy.
So I'm, I've got various ideas variousplans to basically help out on events and
Ellen Schwartze (48:52):
I love that,
Emily Chappell (48:53):
things like that.
Ellen Schwartze (48:54):
yeah, I kind of move into a different era.
Emily Chappell (48:56):
Yeah, but still as much cycling as I can do
because I just really love it.
I went out last night on thefirst road ride I've done for
quite a while and I was so happy.
It was a really dull, dreary day.
It's quite cold here.
The landscape is, if I'm honest,where I went, quite boring, really.
(49:19):
Very hilly.
I was quite sweaty.
It got dark.
There was not a particularlyexciting sunset.
There was a bit of mud on the road,so I got back with spots on me.
And I just still want to weep with joy.
I loved it so much.
I miss cycling like that.
And I'm so glad I got to go out.
So if I could have a ride likethat every few days, that's
(49:42):
ultimately that'll keep me happy.
Marley Blonksy (49:45):
I love that.
Ellen Schwartze (49:46):
That's wonderful.
You've painted a lot of reallycool pictures for us today.
You've shared so much of, so many of yourstories and so much of yourself and your
journey that I really just appreciatethat you came to chat with us, Emily.
Marley Blonksy (49:59):
Yes, agreed thank you so much, Emily.
Hey Marley!
Marley Blonksy (00:01):
Hey Ellen, happy Friday!
Ellen Schwartze (00:02):
Happy Friday.
We're recording on a Friday and I,it could not have come sooner for me.
It has been a long week.
How are you?
Marley Blonksy (00:09):
I'm okay, it's also been a long week.
Yeah, it's, I'm excitedfor this conversation.
This is going to be a high, ahighlight of my week, I think.
Ellen Schwartze (00:17):
I am really ready to fangirl over Emily Chappell
even though she doesn't want meto because she's a humble person.
I think we should just dive rightin because I'm going to tell
you exactly how cool she is.
And then we will, we'll bring heron to chat more because we've got
such a good conversation lined up.
You
Marley Blonksy (00:36):
That sounds, great.
Ellen Schwartze (00:37):
Okay.
Emily Chappell is an athlete, adventureand award winning author starting her
cycling career is a courier in London.
She is well known as an ultra longdistance adventurer between 2011 and 2013.
She cycled across Asia along the way.
She developed an insatiable curiosityabout the world, its landscapes, and
the people who live there, which hasfueled her escapades ever since, since
(00:59):
returning from that big First adventure.
She has spent more than a decade exploringthe world by bicycle, including winter
crossings of Iceland and North America,enduring temperatures as low as minus 40
Celsius, I'm expecting that to be, whichis very close to minus 40 Fahrenheit, FYI.
And I think we're recording this inJanuary, so a lot of our listeners can
(01:22):
relate to how cold that feels, even
Marley Blonksy (01:24):
And cannot imagine riding a bike in it right now, so I'm going
to ask you about that, not to digress.
Ellen Schwartze (01:29):
maybe we'll get that first.
And rode thousands of miles around theback roads and mountain trails of Europe.
In 2016, she won the prestigioustranscontinental race, riding 4, 000
kilometers from Belgium to Turkeyin under two weeks, self supported.
And since 2017, she led Le Loop,an endurance challenge where
amateur cyclists take on theentire route of the tour to France.
(01:52):
She has published two books about heradventures, writes a weekly newsletter,
and is a popular public speaker, atalented presenter, and an impassioned
advocate for diversity in the outdoors.
Hi Emily!
Emily Chappell (02:02):
Hello.
First of all, can I say thefangirling is totally mutual.
Thank you very much for having me on.
Marley Blonksy (02:08):
Of course, yeah, it's so great to meet you.
I think we came across each otheron Instagram a couple years ago and
I was like, Oh, who's this person?
She's doing cool things.
And now we finally get to the chanceto chat, which is really awesome.
Silence.
Ellen Schwartze (02:40):
was like almost, you had to throw all those to get around
where you wanted to be on a bike.
But yeah, you were one of thepioneers doing the message, bike
messengers and all that stuff.
Emily Chappell (02:51):
I don't think of myself as a pioneer because there's
always someone who came before you.
So when I became a bike Messenger in 2008,I think everyone was saying, Oh man, you
should have been here five years ago.
And the 1990s, that's whenit was really happening.
So I think of myself as a late comer.
And then of course, A decade passesand everyone sees you as a pioneer.
Ellen Schwartze (03:12):
Yeah.
The book was, it had a big receptionwhen it came out, didn't it?
Emily Chappell (03:16):
It did reasonably well.
Two other books came out in the sameyear about being a bike messenger.
They were both, not that'snecessarily relevant.
And I think we, we all did reasonablywell, but I know mine is still selling.
People still, buy it and talkto me about it, which is nice.
Ellen Schwartze (03:30):
I just thought it was really fun.
It was, like, cycling around London,I think, prepared me for being more
of a commuter in other places versusdoing that, the recreation piece of
it, because it was just differenttraffic and different things.
And, in 2015 when I was there,it was like when the cycle
superhighways were just opening.
Not all of them were even built yet.
So it was a bit of a Confidence boosterto be like, yeah, I'm doing this.
(03:53):
I'm here.
Emily Chappell (03:54):
Yeah, I really think London, living in London and
cycling in London, it's kind of.
One of those things that prepares you forthe rest of adult life, whatever you do.
Because my first few years therewere so hard in various ways, I
was so broke and everything wasquite difficult and challenging.
And learning to cycle in London, Ihadn't really cycled much as an adult.
And when you learn to cycle in London,You can handle anything, and I now
(04:18):
think, I tell people, it's kind oflike I jumped in at the deep end before
I could swim, learned to swim there,and only then I drifted over to the
shallow end and realized, oh, I didn'tneed to make it so hard for myself.
I can cycle out of town.
And it's really nice.
I can cycle on bike paths.
I can go to countries andcycle in the mountains.
It doesn't have to be this kind ofconstant video game assault course.
(04:41):
But I did also love it.
As you'll know from the bookI look back on those years as
some of the happiest of my life.
Ellen Schwartze (04:48):
Yeah, same.
And I loved it too witheverything that you, you said.
It's like it doesn't actuallyneed to be that hard, but it
prepares you for anything else.
I feel like you comparing, you sayingthat the mountains were easier or
felt easier than cycling in London is
Emily Chappell (05:02):
I did say that not easier,
Ellen Schwartze (05:04):
Oh, fair.
Emily Chappell (05:05):
Maybe slightly less scary.
Ellen Schwartze (05:07):
There you go.
But that's great.
And so one of the reasons that we reallywanted to chat with you on the all
bodies on bikes podcast specificallyis because if anyone's followed you on
Instagram you are very open about howyou view yourself and your body and
your challenges when it comes to beingin a differently looking body than the
rest of the professional cycling world.
(05:27):
There is this super, super duper greatquote that you wrote in Apidura that said,
Witnessing a body like mine, triumphingover one of the toughest races there
is, referencing the transcontinentalrace, will have quietly nudged a lot of
people's understanding of what a cyclistmight look like, how much body fat an
athlete might have, and how wrong we wereto think that strength must have a size.
(05:51):
Like if we could have rewritten allbodies mantra, I feel like it would
have used many of the same words.
So we wanted to justchat with you about that.
What are your first thoughts on this?
Emily Chappell (06:01):
I guess my first thoughts and I have been chewing
this over my entire adult lifeand sort of talking myself round
to feeling better about myself.
My first thoughts are, actually, therewas never anything wrong with me.
If you look at me in photos,I'm not even that big.
I'm at most medium sized andalso I have a fantastic body.
(06:21):
It's fit, it's strong,it has done so much.
The problem is with fatphobic discourse.
And, oh my god, there is nothing wrongwith me, and I tell myself this all
the time, but I've been told sinceI could remember that there was.
So even though I never, there werenever any problems with my body, I grew
(06:43):
up thinking, knowing that there were.
And I'm kind of quite angry about thatbecause I've had to, overcome all this
stuff that was completely made up,I shouldn't have had to overcome it.
It wasn't even there.
I didn't even have any problems.
I actually could have been, I'vebeen quite successful, but you know,
Ellen Schwartze (07:01):
a little
Marley Blonksy (07:03):
I think that's so relatable though.
And as I don't want to say I came toprominence, but as I became like a
bigger name in the cycling community,I heard from more and more pros
like yourself who, by all objectivemeasures don't have large bodies.
However, the narrative that'sfed to you either through popular
media or through the sportingworld is that your body is too big.
And so I don't know if you're You'veencountered that among other professional
(07:26):
cyclists and other folks doing thework that you're doing, but I can tell
you, it is not uncommon lots of womenin the pro peloton fight those same
battles and those same narratives andit's really it's disturbing because your
body, like you said, it's perfect, it'sbeautiful, it's strong, it carried you
across many, not millions, but many milesand kilometers and all sorts of stuff.
(07:49):
Silence.
You
Emily Chappell (08:19):
look, okay, you need to keep your body strong.
And I was never trying to perform atthe, the top end of professional sport.
Ultra racing is very different.
And to be honest, I think one ofthe reasons I did so well in it.
is that I have a very good digestivesystem, I can eat very large
amounts and process them quite well.
And I've managed somehow to dodgethe worst of the sort of food issues
(08:42):
that a lot of people end up with.
When I'm off privately on my own and noone can see me and judge how much ice
cream I'm eating, I can just go for it.
And then I can sprintup a 20 percent hill.
And, we talk about the physiologicaladvantages our body has.
I think that's one of the greatunsung ones in endurance sports is
being able to process a lot of food.
Marley Blonksy (09:04):
Definitely.
And maybe this might be wrong,but my friends, I see what ultra
endurance cyclists eat when theyare out on these adventures.
And a lot of times it's whateveryou can find at a gas station.
Sometimes it'll be things thatyou've packed, but it's not
often the most nutritious food.
So what you're sayingis definitely important.
I know I have challengesdigesting large amounts of food.
(09:26):
And that's fueling properly.
I don't do distances nearly whatyou were doing, but I'm training
for a hundred mile race right now.
And it's a proper distance,but making sure I'm fueling
properly is a huge part of it.
And that's a big challenge for sure.
Emily Chappell (09:39):
Yeah, definitely.
And I think of myself, I'm abit like a multi fuel stove.
I could burn anything, butI'd rather burn the good stuff
and perform better if I can.
So, there's this kind ofstereotype that ultra cyclists
are just living off McDonald'severywhere, which sometimes happens.
But also, a lot of my memories of raceslike the Transcontinental are stopping at
(10:00):
roadside fruit stalls and getting a kiloof cherries and eating them as I go along.
a supermarket where I can get freshfruit and veg and, drinking litres
of orange juice and things like that.
And then also eating loads ofchocolate and cake and whatever else.
And I think, I don't know, it's oneof the things I really like about
my body that I've managed to developquite a good relationship with what
(10:21):
it likes to eat and what it wants.
And it's been a long journey.
It's been my, most of my life,but I now eat very intuitively.
And so one or two days a month,my body really wants to eat junk.
And I think fine.
You don't normally, but thisseems to be what you want.
And then a few days later,it's back on, whatever.
Marley Blonksy (10:39):
That's brilliant.
, Ellen Schwartze: When I learned about intuitive eating, that was
one of the things that I noticedis you have to listen to what
your body is actually telling you.
If you are craving chocolate,it wants chocolate.
It doesn't want the almonds that havethe same thing as chocolate in them,
according to the nutrition blogs.
It's like it wants chocolatefor whatever reason it is.
And so listening to that was always,again, once I started to, it's that
(11:00):
is what is now satisfying to me.
It's what made my braincalm down in order to.
Keep moving on like on to thenext like 10 minutes of my day.
Emily Chappell (11:08):
I think this is another Example though of how, society has just
consistently told us we're wrong becauseuntil quite recently I always knew that I
ate too much because that's just, that'swhat everybody said, I was always warned
as a child to eat less, the amount I atewas problematic, people would comment
on it, I would eat in secret, I meanI've never, I've never eaten Too much,
(11:31):
but I felt self conscious about it.
And of course, especially in theworld we live in, a lot of women
actually don't eat very much becausethey have been brought up to eat.
Not very much.
Are they brought up to.
be on a permanent diet and all of that.
And it's only in recent years thatI've realized actually, I've always
(11:52):
eaten, scare quotes too much, butI've maintained a consistent size.
I've performed very well.
There's nothing wrong with my body.
It's actually very healthy.
Could I, in fact, beeating the right amount?
Could it be?
But the myth of what womenare supposed to eat is wrong.
Or maybe just, everyone elsedoesn't need to eat as much as me.
But the amount of effort andtime it took to unlearn that.
(12:15):
Again, I'm amazed.
I'm also quite angry becausewhat a waste of energy.
Marley Blonksy (12:19):
you
Ellen Schwartze (12:34):
my body, it's going to be this shape.
I can make it stronger.
I can make it, I can not exerciseand it'll do different things,
but like the food and the sizewere unrelated, even though.
Society was saying it shouldbe related, or, and I should be
working towards a different shape.
I think it's really important, and Ithink, too there's this representation
(12:55):
of you just saying that out loud,as someone who is, professional, if
you don't want to, professional orprofessional adjacent, of saying this
is how it is and my body is strong, canhelp more people get into the sport.
Emily Chappell (13:07):
I hope so, because there are fewer, I'm not going
to call myself a large person.
There are fewer, slightlylarger people in the sport.
There's still loads and loadsof very small women in cycling.
And in many cases that's their body type.
It's fine.
But I think people get scaredoff because they think, Oh,
I'm going to be the large one.
Even when these people arenot actually that large.
(13:29):
And I.
I don't like being the one who stands out.
People do just make occasional commentsand some of them are favourable.
I'm, people say I'm so gladto see, quotes, a normal
looking woman in this sport.
I think, yeah, okay, you mean aslightly larger looking woman.
I really don't want tobe like that one person.
It's self conscious.
(13:50):
I'm not that confident.
But I know that if I saw that personit would help and I think hopefully
it will help some other people and youknow If that has to be me fine, but
hopefully one day it won't be one day.
There'll be loads of us
Marley Blonksy (14:04):
I want you to come.
Okay.
Thank you.
Two.
So there's an event coming up in theUnited States called Mid South Gravel,
and there's going to be like 50, if notmore, all bodies on bikes folks there.
And all, almost all ofus are in larger bodies.
And I I don't know where I'mgoing with this except to say
that I think you're right.
There are more and moreof us getting into this.
And obviously gravel is differentthan ultra endurance, and each
(14:26):
genre of cycling, different bodytypes excel at different sports.
I will never be in the road Peloton,but I can race gravel all day long.
But I think you're exactly right, Emily.
It's hard to be kind of thetoken big person that people look
to and say, Oh, if she's doingit, that means I can do it too.
But I.
I want you to rest assured thatI think you have been a, like a
(14:48):
shining beacon for a lot of folks.
And there are more and more peopleof different sizes and shapes
getting into this and saying,yeah, this is a great sport for me.
So you definitely helpedblaze that trail a little bit.
Emily Chappell (14:58):
As very much thank you
Marley Blonksy (15:01):
Of course.
Ellen Schwartze (15:01):
Marley, like even within, if you think of the Tour de France,
like there are different people win themountain stages than the straightaways
because they've got different skill, likedifferent muscles that they've trained.
I think his name isn'tit Quintano from Ecuador?
It's like when he stood,he won a mountain stage.
I'd never heard of him before, butthe reason I remember him is because
his quads are like wider than hisbody and it's at least at the time.
(15:23):
And.
It was just like, yeah,like this guy's a climber.
It's what his body respondedto and what he enjoyed doing.
And that's just a part of it.
Emily Chappell (15:32):
It's something that I have really enjoyed in all the
different disciplines of cycling I'vedone and which maybe you'll relate to
is doing all these different thingsand learning what your body's good at
And you don't know that until you justspend a lot of time doing something.
A few years ago, I was doing a racein Yorkshire, a sort of mountain
bike gravel race over a few days.
(15:54):
And I remember one morning, I'd wokenup in my sleeping bag somewhere, it was
foggy, I'd just ridden up a really steephill and then I had to drag my bike
through this acres and acres of bog andI remember just trudging along with my
heavy bike and just suddenly realizingthis is great I'm actually having a
really good time I've no idea why but Ifeel like I'm really suited to this and
(16:16):
you know when you're good at somethingAnd when you enjoy doing it, that's
a really satisfying experience and Iwouldn't have had that if I hadn't, got
into cycling and by a circuitous routeended up a hill in a bog in Yorkshire.
And I think when you go out thereand you start doing things on a bike
and you explore different things.
You broaden your sense of yourself andyou broaden your sense of your abilities
(16:39):
and everything you do, every differentthing you do, you sort of learn little
lessons that you could take into otherareas of your life or you just gain a
better sense of your own capability.
Ellen Schwartze (16:50):
I think this is actually something that both of you do really
well is the learning out loud part ofall of this, like taking a minute to
have a post about how this was a lightbulb moment for me, And here's why.
Or even, when it comes to bodyissues, explaining to the world, yes,
I am confident in my body and hereare the steps I took to get there.
(17:11):
I think you both do that superwell and I think you both
recognize the importance of that.
Marley Blonksy (17:16):
Thank you.
Emily Chappell (17:17):
a really good way of putting it actually.
I hadn't actually heard.
Anyone say learning out loud before?
Because I sometimes feel a bit conflictedabout, all of social media and all the big
conversations we're all having constantly.
Because there's this tendency forpeople to start becoming, it's very easy
for people to start becoming a guru.
And as soon as they've learned a lessonthemselves, they're like, okay, I'm
(17:39):
going to give you this post on how tobe, body confident or whatever it is.
And you think they're just figuringout themselves, We don't need to treat
this person as an expert, but I thinkwhat I hadn't thought is it's really
valuable to watch somebody in real time.
And in my case, in decades and decadesof real time, gradually figuring
(17:59):
things out and giving you things youcan perhaps take away and relate to.
Ellen Schwartze (18:03):
Yeah, we had a great conversation with Ellen Noble,
but she retired focused on healthissues and then Unretired, but she.
mentioned that she unretired likeat the start of her retraining
journey, not say like she didn'tcome out after having trained and
here I'm doing a race next week.
And same.
It was really important to her becauseshe kind of hadn't seen that before to
(18:25):
say there's more to it than unretiring.
And now I'm a pro again, there's,today winning for me is 20 minutes
on the bike, 30 minutes on the bike.
And I think again, it's just, it'sa really good way for people to see.
that you can do it too.
It is a process no matter what it is.
It's not Emily was born on theside of a mountain and handed a
(18:46):
bike and then she made it up theside, like when she was three.
She worked really hard to get there.
And here's been the journey.
Marley Blonksy (18:55):
I would actually love to kind of talk about
that journey a little bit.
How did you go from being acourier in London to getting into
the transcontinental where youdecide you're going to ride your
bike across the entire continent?
What happened there?
Emily Chappell (19:09):
I think being a courier was the first big step really.
So before that, I, got into cycling acouple of years before that as a commuter.
And I really was.
not very active before that.
So the big change was when I wasabout 24 and I got into cycling in
London and all of a sudden I wentfrom a person who just sat still.
Most of the time didn't really thinkabout her body at all to someone who
(19:32):
was obsessed with being on my bike asmuch as possible and that obsession just
grew and then I found out about thesecycle careers and oh my god, they're so
cool and Really wanted to be one becameone Successfully for the first time in
my life was cool enjoyed it and Afterthat, I was so happy being a courier.
(19:56):
I just wanted to do it all the time.
I knew I couldn't do it forever.
I knew it was unrealistic to dothis kind of sub minimum wage
job for more than a few years.
But I knew that when I stopped, I wouldhave to go back to normal life, and, I'd
get less fit, I wouldn't have as much timeto cycle, probably get back problems, have
a boring office job, and I just imaginedlife would go back into black and white.
(20:18):
And I really didn't want that to happen.
And then, I after maybe three years on theroad, the long story is I had a summer of
not really knowing what I was going to do.
I'd given up on my academic plans.
And
it a lot.
And I went in, moaning andcomplaining about this stupid
(20:41):
bike that was always breaking.
And one of the people behind the countersaid, Look, Emily, you know you cycle
hundreds of miles a week, of course yourbike's going to be breaking all the time.
And I thought, Oh yeah fair enough.
And I wrote home thinking, I guess Iprobably do ride hundreds of miles a week.
I hadn't really thought about it before.
I wonder how many hundreds ofmiles, thousands of miles I must've
(21:02):
done since I started this job.
And if you stretch that out, I've justbeen riding around in circles in central
London, but if you stretch that out, howmany times around the world would that be?
And that was when this veryobvious idea occurred to me.
And the next thing I was goingto do was cycle around the world.
And I didn't cycle all the wayaround the world in the end.
I set out and it was like,an open ended long journey.
(21:24):
I prepared for it for over ayear and I planned to just.
be on the road for years and years, maybethree, four years, as long as it took.
And then after 18 months of crossingAsia, I'd had an amazing time.
I'd really enjoyed myself, but I justgot to the point where I was tired
and needed to be at home for a bit.
(21:46):
And as soon as I was on the road, thesort of the completionist aspect of the
journey, the sort of, you must Do anunbroken line around the world and never
stop just seemed really irrelevant.
I think it only seemedimportant before I started.
So that was the Asia ride.
And then I think I was just alwayslooking for bigger challenges.
You could probably argue that I wastrying to prove something I almost
(22:08):
certainly was because I was a nerdy kid.
I was not fit.
I was not strong I was not cool And Ithink there was this myth in my family
that I was a bit vague and useless becauseI was always you know Head in a book So I
think I was trying to really inscribe thisnew version of my personality and then
yeah But in fact this time ten years ago,I was doing my big ride from Anchorage to
(22:30):
Seattle So round about now I would havebeen I think crossing the border into
the Yukon and yeah, it was very cold.
Kind of a step up from what I'd donebecause, I'd spent 18 months on the road.
I'd been through all sorts of landscapes,different climates, different cultures.
And I thought, okay Iknow I'm doing let's.
(22:50):
Try and increase the difficulty a bit.
increase the difficulty a bit.
Um,
Ellen Schwartze (22:55):
Choose to be in Alaska in January on purpose or is
that just when your time off fell?
Emily Chappell (23:02):
No, I did.
I did.
So I planned, I had actually plannedto go immediately after Japan
straight to Alaska and start then.
But as I said, I neededto go home for a bit.
Went home spent two years at home.
Went back on the road as acourier and planned for this trip.
And I really wanted to do it inwinter, because I'd enjoyed the
(23:24):
winter cycling I'd done thus far.
I say this now, of course, we allknow the concept of type 2 fun.
It was awful at thetime, quite constantly.
My water froze, it was terrible, Ididn't sleep at night, it was so cold.
But I prepared better for the Alaska trip.
I had quite good kit, I'dspoken to a lot of people.
Because I was scared, like minus 40.
(23:46):
is, I couldn't imagine it.
So I got in touch with loads andloads of people who'd done similar
things or who lived in the area.
I knew what I needed, and I was stillscared, but I could tell myself no, you've
prepared, you've got all the right kit.
And honestly, it was beautiful.
It was so beautiful.
Being out there, almostcompletely on my own, because
(24:07):
it's very quiet there in winter.
on this white road because it's justcovered in compacted snow with these
dark forests either side and theeffect of the snow on the landscape
is sort of muffling so the acousticswere different so there were days it
felt like riding through a stage setor something and then One of the great
unsung glories of winter bike touring isyou get to sleep for a really long time.
(24:32):
Because it would get dark at, Idon't know four o'clock or something.
So I'd stop, because itgot cold when it got dark.
So I'd stop just before it got dark, I'dput my tent up, and then I'd spend, I
don't know, like 12, 14 hours in my tent.
I'd fall asleep immediatelybecause it was quite hard.
cycling a heavy bike in the cold all day.
And then I'd wake up for a bitin the night, which is what we, I
(24:53):
think, biologically are programmedto do, or would have done back in
the day before electric lights.
And I, I'd sleep deeply, I'd snooze.
I daydream, and I just feelready to get up in the morning.
And that was really nice.
I,
Ellen Schwartze (25:09):
Sounds magical.
Emily Chappell (25:10):
yeah, it was wonderful.
And yes, it was sometimes horribly,painfully, frighteningly cold.
It was beautiful.
The scenery.
I saw mountains every single day.
Sometimes I had to go up parts ofthem, which was hard, but I liked it.
I was riding a bike, a fat bike thatweighed about Not somewhere north of
50 kilos and I felt weak and tired andslow the whole time, but Afterwards
(25:36):
when I got on a carbon road bike,it turned out I'd become very strong
Worth it And yeah, I mean I didn't want itto end it was three months Which I think
is the perfect length of trip really it'slong enough to be properly away But not
so long that you kind of lose your gripon anything, because I think the Asia
trip had been a bit too long, really.
(25:58):
And then at the end of the trip, I cameround the side of the mountains and cycled
into Vancouver on what felt like thefirst day of spring, there was blossom
everywhere, and it honestly felt likeI'd ridden through so much winter and
here I was just riding into a new season.
It was wonderful.
It was, I think, one ofthe high points of my life.
(26:20):
And then, yes, it was after thatI got into ultra distance racing.
Ellen Schwartze (26:26):
I think this has answered half of one of the questions
I had wanted to ask you, which iswhat's the trip you talk about when
you want people to understand how muchyou love this ultra endurance riding.
The second half of that question is,what's the ride you point to when you want
someone to have a realistic view of this?
If someone's truly saying, I want to goout and do this, what's the trip you point
(26:47):
to that is indicative of the challengethat you're truly gearing up for?
Emily Chappell (26:52):
Do you mean effectively what's the bad side?
Ellen Schwartze (26:55):
Basically, yeah.
What you just painted is like, I'msitting here maybe I should book
a trip to Alaska and I'm in no wayprepared for this, but I think I'm
wondering what the full picture is.
Emily Chappell (27:07):
I don't think there's any one ride.
I could probably So any ride I'vedone, any trip, any race, there's
always been good bits and bad bits.
It's more just like how bad were thebad bits and how often did they happen?
I think there was a race I did in 2017called the Transatlantic Way, which goes
around most of the coast of Ireland.
(27:27):
And I was not in a good way at the time.
I'd lost a friend recently, so Iwas in hindsight still grieving.
And.
The weather was unbelievably bad.
Irish weather is something quite special.
I've never been into wind so strong.
Ellen Schwartze (27:42):
yes.
Yes.
Emily Chappell (27:56):
you could never escape the wind.
You might have it behind you sometimes,but any minute now you were going
to do a 180 and go back inland andit would be in your face again.
But also it meant thatprogress was very slow.
So if I ever looked at the map to see howfar I'd come in like a week or something,
it would look like nothing because Ihadn't really made very much progress
south because I'd been so busy wigglingaround all these different peninsulas.
(28:20):
And yes, I just remember all ofthat time just wanting to stop.
It was seemed to be all I thought about.
I thought this must be whatpeople think it's like.
It's just really hard.
And I had a lot of faith by then becauseI'd done so much of this sort of cycling.
And It's good and it's bad but mostly Ilove it and I also know that if you keep
(28:44):
going you tend to feel better eventuallyand you might suddenly get another burst
of energy and be racing along singingand think I can't believe I felt so
bad two hours ago I feel wonderful nowI know it won't last but still but I
think that race I just mostly felt bad.
I finally stopped when Istarted to feel good again.
I don't remember the psychology of it, butI had a good climb, and I actually felt
(29:05):
strong and happy again, and I think I justthought, okay, I know I can still do this.
I know I've got it, but that'sbeen a lot of suffering.
I think I'll call it a day now.
Marley Blonksy (29:13):
Yeah you, you said something in there that I want to
pull out because it's advice that Igive to folks too is that, anything
you're experiencing is temporary.
If you're sad.
Eat a snack and it's going to get better.
Especially with long distance cyclingevents, like it is a continual process
and things are constantly changing.
And I just love how you, you explainedthat of, you, you felt strong and then
you felt sad and then you felt happyand that's exactly what it's all about.
Emily Chappell (29:36):
Yeah, it's something I've learned again and again But the
thing I now often realize is it'sall very well knowing that but it
doesn't make the bad moments any better
Marley Blonksy (29:46):
No.
Emily Chappell (29:47):
I tend to go into it right thinking.
Ah I'm a very experienced now, soI'll be fine But if you're riding
100 miles, it's always hard.
And I've so often now, I've gone intosomething thinking, Oh, I'll be fine.
I'm Emily Chappell.
And then I have an awful time.
And I think I was unprepared for this.
I didn't realize it could be so bad.
I thought I was on top of this.
So I think that's, maybe that'snot the inspirational lesson I
(30:11):
need to be giving people, but
Ellen Schwartze (30:13):
I think that's exactly it.
Marley Blonksy (30:16):
I think it's relatable because, when I get, for me, it's usually
about mile 30 when I start to realize,Oh my God, I have to do the equivalent
of what I just did two more times.
And then I get to mile 60 andI'm like, Oh, I'm almost done.
So I think hearing that somebodywho is as accomplished as you are
also experiences those self doubtsand those, moments of questioning is
really humanizing and really relatable.
(30:37):
So I think it's perfectlyfine to tell people that.
Emily Chappell (30:40):
I hope so.
I don't think it will ever go away.
I think if you're having a, you're on along ride and you're feeling terrible.
You are completely correct,but you will get through it.
Marley Blonksy (30:49):
Exactly, yeah.
I want to switch gears a little bit,because you're a very multifaceted
person and one of the areasthat you've talked about is your
queerness and your queer identityand the intersectionality of that.
And so there's a scene in your firstbook where your queer life and your
cycling life, which had been kindof running parallel to each other
and not really intersecting witheach other, they kind of collided.
Since then, and I understand thatwas a while ago have those parts
(31:11):
of your life Are they still kind ofseparate and exist independently?
Or have you been ableto blend them together?
And what other ways doesintersectionality play into your life?
Emily Chappell (31:22):
It's a great question, actually.
And I really love that youreferenced that bit from the book.
We probably don't have time for me toread it out or anything, but for anyone
Marley Blonksy (31:30):
tell us the story!
For folks who haven't readit, tell us the story.
Emily Chappell (31:33):
I'll try and, I've never actually told it, I've only written it.
I'll try and tell it quickly.
It was just basically, I had, I wascouriering, I'd been sent out to a
certain address to deliver a packageor pick something up or something.
And my rim had just blown out.
in my my front wheel.
And as anyone knows, if that'shappened to you, it's not only quite
(31:54):
scary and mine happened in a tunnel.
So instead of just goingbang, it kind of went boom,
Marley Blonksy (31:59):
Oh my god.
Emily Chappell (32:01):
the bomb had gone off.
Like the cars all swerved and everything,no one knew what had happened.
So I Walked the bike out of, becausethe, the rim had pinged, so the
wheel wouldn't even go around, soI had to walk the bike out as well.
Into this, sort of, it was likea big industrial sort of fire
station, I was delivering,because I had to get a signature.
So I walked in, there was a fireengine there, there was a guy and
(32:22):
he said, Oh yeah go round the front,the woman there will sort you out.
I thought, Oh.
Poor woman.
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
And I walked around the frontof the engine, with my bike on
my shoulder and my package undermy arm and I walked into this
incredibly hot firefighter.
She was gorgeous.
She had crew cut likekind of tanned, muscled.
(32:46):
She was, I would have beenlate 20s, so she might have
been early 40s, I don't know.
She was older and just looked really cool.
And I think she lookedup and was like, oh, hi.
Oh, you're not what I was expecting.
And we just had this, as I rememberit, this moment where, all we
had to do was I had to say here'sa package, please sign for it.
But we spun it out and it was just like,it was the most flirt I'd ever been.
(33:14):
Nothing is gonna liveup to this, 45 seconds.
My cycling friends, I was like, Oh myGod, let me tell you about the time that
I, my rim blew out and I was in a tunnel.
I had to walk for miles and veryfew people were cyclists and
also queer and kind of got tohear both versions, but actually.
Marley Blonksy (33:33):
Silence.
Emily Chappell (34:03):
parallel rails that never met.
And it's only in recent years that there'sjust been this kind of upswelling of
various sorts of diversity in cycling.
And it's Wonderful.
Like just last weekend I went outfor a ride with like a dozen other
(34:23):
queer people because there's a groupin Sheffield where I live called Peak
Queer Adventures and they do variousthings but they'd organized a ride and
I mean I've written thousands of wordstrying to explain why it means so much
to be able to ride with other queerpeople because Why does it matter?
We just want to ride bikes, but it reallydoes and I'm not going to try and explain
(34:46):
it all because I do think I would taketoo long and this is a podcast, not a, but
Ellen Schwartze (34:50):
say I would say we have time and we have an acute There's
a cute interest in this particularintersection, so if you would like
to take the time, you're welcome to.
Emily Chappell (34:58):
well let's see where I get with it because I.
I have tried to explain this in thepast and I just haven't quite put my
finger on it, but I think for one thingwhen I very first came out and when
I first moved to London and I wantedto make queer friends The only thing
you could do really was go to bars.
And I don't mind going to bars, butit's just not what I would normally do.
I wouldn't go there if I wasn'tlooking to meet queer friends.
(35:20):
And I just think, what's thelikelihood of you making your
friends for life in an environmentthat is not where you feel at home?
And now I think, anyone coming out now,if you're into cycling, You can go and
ride with the queer cyclists, and youget to continue to do the thing you
want, and you get to make queer friends,and you're not in an environment where
(35:43):
everyone's trying to hook up, which maybe what you're after, but may also not be.
So there's that, and There's thegreat comfort of just being able to
be a particular version of yourselfand not have to worry that it's
going to be taken the wrong way.
Going for a ride with other queer people.
It's great, because you knowthat you can just stop worrying
(36:03):
about all of that stuff.
If you want to go on and on aboutbeing gay for three and a half
hours the entire ride, you can.
But also, if you don't want to, youdon't have to, and no one is the gay one.
And that is really nice.
And One of the things I've reallyenjoyed, so I work with various brand
partners and please understand that whenI mention my brand partners, I'm not
(36:24):
doing so in any way to promote them.
You can choose which products you wantto buy and I don't care, but I do kind
of have to give a bit of a shout outto particular people at Rapha who have
made the whole I don't know, the wholevibe of Rapha, so much more welcoming
than I ever thought was possible.
(36:45):
So when I first started cyclingmost of cycling was, like
tall, buff, middle aged men.
Nothing like me, with the resultthat I actually now get on very well
with tall middle aged men becauseI've met so many of them, I actually
have got a lot in common with them.
And then, it was, ah, maybe threeyears ago we did a big event in London.
(37:08):
hosted by Rapha and they invitedme to interview Lael Wilcox, who
is the Taylor Swift of bikepacking.
And it was, as you'dimagine, a sellout event.
And she is also, she's married to a woman.
It was two non straight women.
sitting up at the front of ahuge crowd of cycling fans.
(37:28):
I remember at one point I asked her somequestion about, being out in cycling
and I said, look, queer women kind ofrun the cycling industry, don't they?
And I, I loved it becausethere were cheers from three
different parts of the room.
And then it was actually the followingday when people put up photos of this.
And it sort of goes back a little bitto what we were saying before about
(37:48):
Not necessarily wanting to be the onewho represents, but someone has to.
Ellen Schwartze (37:52):
Okay.
Emily Chappell (38:22):
would have blown me away.
I can't believe that this has happened.
There's so much wrong in the world.
There's so much wrongin the cycling industry.
There's so far we have to go in somany ways, but actually in my life,
this is unprecedented and I stillhaven't put my finger on why it
means so much, but it really does.
(38:44):
And I had a conversation shortlyafter that with the, my main
contact at Rapha, who's also queer.
And I sort of mentioned thisto her and she said, Oh no,
we want you to be yourself.
Please be it more.
This is, we want people to seethat you can be whatever it is
you are and be a Rapha person.
This works for us.
(39:05):
And it was that and it was talkingabout the body image stuff that
I had thought would just make mea pariah in the cycling world.
And I think this particularmoment came where everyone was
ready and I was ready to say it.
And you know what, I mean there's so muchdepressing stuff going on in the world.
(39:25):
I really like to cling tothis one positive plot strand.
For some queer people, somethings are getting better.
And in the world I operate in, Thingsare improving and I get to be part of it.
It's so partial, butthere is at least that.
Ellen Schwartze (39:43):
I think it's a good message for us
to take away with right now.
It's that as much as the worldfeels heavy, there are bright
lights among everything.
I think that's what we love.
That's what I love about doing thework with All Bodies on Bikes too, and
finding ways to do our little bitty bits.
Here and there, the bitty bits addup, and to your point, someone is
(40:04):
seeing you, and they are having themoment that you wish you had ten
years ago, and they're seeing it now.
And I always think of that, too,as even with education or science,
it's the building blocks have gottenus this far, and that means that
the next new person gets to startat the top of the building blocks.
Emily Chappell (40:20):
And you know what?
Imagine where they willbe in ten years time.
Ellen Schwartze (40:23):
Exactly.
Emily Chappell (40:24):
This is something I love as well.
In ten years time, it won't need to be me.
Some people won't remember me, butthere will be some new amazing person
who has done more than I ever could.
Ellen Schwartze (40:35):
Yeah.
And to kind of bring it full circle,like you said at the top, to me, it's
I found you as the pioneer and you'resitting here saying, no, there was
someone before me there will be someoneafter you as well, who's going to pick
up this baton, or I guess cycling doesn'thave batons, but you run sometimes.
And takes it forward and forward.
Maybe Marley, is that you?
I think it's you.
Marley Blonksy (40:53):
Maybe I don't know.
That's it's quite the shoes tofill, but I would be honored
to continue to carry the torch.
Emily Chappell (40:59):
Oh, I think you've always carried a bigger torch than me.
Just keep going.
Shine your light wherever you can.
Marley Blonksy (41:05):
I try you had a post recently about e bikes that
I absolutely loved and about how,a two hour e bike ride can be
just as restorative as couch time.
And we're huge fans of e bikeshere at all bodies on bikes.
But have you gotten any pushbackfrom that or has anything, I don't
know where my question's going onthis, except that I love your post.
Ellen Schwartze (41:24):
I'll add to this as for some context is that, so we did our
Festivus episode where people calledin to air their grievances and one of
them was just, it's e bikes in thisspace are still sometimes getting flack
because it feels like the easy way outor like an, a crutch and not a, not
something that's moving us forward.
So that's where, again,I saw your post too.
And I was like, this is super cool.
(41:46):
This is such a great example of howe bikes are a part of this world.
Emily Chappell (41:52):
Yeah I haven't had very much pushback.
Maybe one or two isolated comments,but also I think everything I'm
saying about e bikes is quitelet me tell you about e bikes.
I was a slow adopter, asI am with most things.
And I wasn't against e bikes,I was just against them for me.
And I think one of the things thatactually brought me around was I did
a project last year with a man calledEd Clancy, who is I think Britain's
(42:14):
most successful Olympian ever.
He has loads of gold medals.
He was a track cyclist and he,he's still, phenomenally fit, but
he rides an e bike and loves it.
And we did this ride over three days wherefor some reason he was on an e bike and I
was not, seemed like the wrong way around.
I learned I just had to govery fast because if I went far
(42:34):
fast, his motor would cut outbecause it has a speed limiter.
And then he'd be a realdisadvantage on a very heavy bike.
So that was my strategy.
But yeah, seeing this guy who is, interms of the mainstream hierarchy of
cycling, he is right at the top andhe was on an e bike and loving it.
and didn't care and goes on andon about how great e bikes are.
(42:56):
And that helped, I think, thathelped me realize that, okay,
I could ride an e bike as well.
And I've had health problemsthe last couple of years.
So I had COVID over two years ago now.
And since then I've had basicallyI've had long COVID not as bad a
version of it as some people have,because I still am exercising.
Whether or not I shouldbe, is another matter.
(43:17):
But I am doing a lot lessthan I than I used to.
And I have good days and bad days.
And, yeah, the e bike is wonderful.
It's wonderful.
And in all sorts of ways that Ihadn't really anticipated, like
it, I know e bikes are quiteexpensive and they're quite a big
investment for a lot of people.
And it seems really silly to say, but yes,even just the psychological advantage,
(43:40):
but there's a huge psychologicaladvantage because, I can go out for a
couple of hours and I don't have to usethe motor, but I can set off saying if
it turns out that I'm not up to ridingfor a couple of hours, I can put it in
turbo to get home, I can go further thanI would have, because I don't have to
worry that I'm suddenly going to gettired and get stranded or anything.
(44:03):
And most of the time, if I've decided togo out for two hours, I go out for two
hours, I don't need to use the motor.
But knowing I have itthere is a huge advantage.
And, yeah, sometimes I'm very tired.
Sometimes I wouldn't go out, but if Ican go out on an e bike, then I would.
I've met lots of other e bikers.
I've met quite a few people, oftenolder people who say I, I got my e
(44:25):
bike and it meant I rode loads more andthen I got fitter and then I started
riding my other bike again and nowI can get up hills I never got up.
And also, people who like me havedeveloped various levels of chronic
illness and they want to keep cycling.
But they just can't do what they didbefore and it means that they can
because there's so much that we get fromriding bikes and this is what I realize.
(44:49):
Yes, I love being fit and fast andstrong and you know doing ultra distance
races but I also love being outdoorsand I also love exploring and I also
love just riding along and thinkingmy thoughts and I also love You know,
going up and down hills and enjoyingthe landscape and seeing the scenery.
(45:12):
And, we all, I think, could make longlists of the things we get out of cycling.
And you don't get allof them from every ride.
And, the rides I do on an e bike.
I'm not really exercising my top endfitness, but I think that's okay.
Marley Blonksy (45:27):
It 100 percent is.
I recently had knee surgery and I'm slowlygetting back into riding and the e bike,
let me go on, like a friend had a groupride for their birthday a couple of weeks
ago and it let me join in because I knewthat I wouldn't be able to keep up with
them on my regular bike post knee surgery.
But on my e bike, I was able to hangout with them and have a great time.
So I, you're exactly right.
It opens doors and it makes it so thatwe can keep riding kind of regardless
(45:50):
of what else is going on in our lives.
Emily Chappell (45:53):
Yeah, I think for me, one of the, one of the things I miss
currently about, Doing the really longstuff is starting in the dark, riding
through the sunrise, being out all day,coming back after sunset and feeling
like I've really seen a lot of the world.
And I haven't yet done abig ride like that on the e
bike, but I absolutely could.
(46:14):
And it wouldn't matter if I wasn'tfit enough or strong enough or well
enough to ride a hundred miles.
I could still do it and Icould have those moments.
Marley Blonksy (46:23):
we interviewed a woman earlier this summer who
went on a bike tour but it was a300 mile or something journey, or
maybe a, I think it was a 600 mile
Ellen Schwartze (46:30):
I think it's 600
Marley Blonksy (46:31):
So it's, the one thing she mentioned, and I'm sure you're aware of
this Emily, is it just takes more planningin terms of where you stop, where you
recharge your e bike, and you don't quitehave the flexibility of, oh, this looks
like a great place to set up my tent.
You're kind of lookingfor that electricity.
Emily Chappell (46:46):
Yeah that's always a concern,
Ellen Schwartze (46:47):
is there anything on the horizon for you as far as rides?
I know that you just mentionedthat you're focused on health
and you're in a different spotthan you have been in the past.
So what's the next amountof time look like for you?
Emily Chappell (47:00):
One of, one of the factors of of having this sort of
puzzling health condition is I can'treally make plans I'm having to be
quite flexible in what I plan to do.
I've got loads of things I wantto do next year but probably some
of them are not going to happen.
I'm hoping I will get to go andride the route of the Women's
Tour de France because it's justsuch a good route this year.
(47:23):
Pretty much every stage is going to bereally nice so I'm gonna try and ride
that and then another thing I reallywant to do is more volunteering and
more helping out because I have hadSo much help and support from people
when I've been doing events and whenI've been touring and all of that.
(47:44):
And also it's, I don't know, I getasked a lot who's your top cycling hero?
And I just don't know what to say.
There are so many people it'sreally hard to pick just one.
And I'm always worriedI'll forget someone.
And then.
It was a few years ago now, I suddenlyrealised, the real cycling heroes are
the people who are doing the daily,weekly, grassroots, teaching kids,
(48:11):
helping refugees to ride bikes, doingcharity work, working in bike shops, doing
community work, and often this work It'srepetitive, potentially fairly boring.
These people are not getting thebig product deals and they're
not writing books and no one is,occasionally there's an award.
(48:32):
People who do things like thatare doing far more than I'm doing.
I just kind of, I know thatwhat I do has value, but.
I very much admire people likethat who give so much of their
time and so much of their energy.
So I'm, I've got various ideas variousplans to basically help out on events and
Ellen Schwartze (48:52):
I love that,
Emily Chappell (48:53):
things like that.
Ellen Schwartze (48:54):
yeah, I kind of move into a different era.
Emily Chappell (48:56):
Yeah, but still as much cycling as I can do
because I just really love it.
I went out last night on thefirst road ride I've done for
quite a while and I was so happy.
It was a really dull, dreary day.
It's quite cold here.
The landscape is, if I'm honest,where I went, quite boring, really.
(49:19):
Very hilly.
I was quite sweaty.
It got dark.
There was not a particularlyexciting sunset.
There was a bit of mud on the road,so I got back with spots on me.
And I just still want to weep with joy.
I loved it so much.
I miss cycling like that.
And I'm so glad I got to go out.
So if I could have a ride likethat every few days, that's
(49:42):
ultimately that'll keep me happy.
Marley Blonksy (49:45):
I love that.
Ellen Schwartze (49:46):
That's wonderful.
You've painted a lot of reallycool pictures for us today.
You've shared so much of, so many of yourstories and so much of yourself and your
journey that I really just appreciatethat you came to chat with us, Emily.
Marley Blonksy (49:59):
Yes, agreed thank you so much, Emily.
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