February 28, 2025 • 43 mins
You may be sitting there asking, "Marley and Ellen, do you really need a whole dang episode devoted to inclusive rides? In the ABOB, we all fam!"
But the answer is YES! The more people who understand the work behind the scenes to create, foster, and protect these inclusive spaces should be shared. So we brought on two resident experts, Eli Kosko and Jacob Sheppard-Saidel, to talk through how they've created purposefully inclusive groups. They share their tips, experiences, and spreadsheets to help the next generation of organizers open their spaces to all.
Jacob Sheppard-Saidel is our All Bodies on Bikes chapter leader for Western Massachusetts. Follow @abob_westernmass (which also has details to join their Sugar Shack ride on Sunday, March 9!)
Eli Kosko is our All Bodies on Bikes chapter leader for Albuquerque. Follow @abob_abq to join up, and for details about their upcoming onramp series.
All Bodies on Bikes events, rides, and information for our 15 nationwide chapters can be found on our website, https://www.allbodiesonbikes.com/events
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marley (00:00):
All right.
I think we're recording.
Ellen (00:02):
I think we're recording.
We are.
We're for sure recording.
How are you Marley?
Marley (00:05):
I am freezing.
How are you?
Ellen (00:08):
Same!
It has been, it's been a really funcouple of weeks to be on international
calls because it doesn't get as coldas it does here in Kansas City, and
so when I get on and I'm like, here'smy Fahrenheit temperature, and then
I convert it into like mega negativeCelsius, they all just lose their minds.
Marley (00:26):
I was talking to somebody about it today, how I just
haven't really gone outside.
And they're like, but wasn't itcold when you lived in Seattle?
And no, we would have weeks whereit would be like a three degree
temperature variation, usuallyin the forties and fifties.
And I like that.
It's, it's a wet cold,but it's better than this.
Like it was six degrees the other morningwhen I went to take Daisy Mae out.
It was, it was wild.
Ellen (00:45):
but you've been riding pretty well.
Didn't I see you get out the other day?
Marley (00:48):
I did, and I actually, I just went to the coffee shop on
my bike, so I, I know that for mymental health, I have to get fresh
air, and it helps that it's sunny.
It's But I hate it, and I'm,I've worn base layers more than
I ever have in my entire life.
I don't ever wear them,and now I live with them.
Ellen (01:04):
Yeah, that's fair.
I am sitting at my desk witha heated blanket on my lap.
So,
Marley (01:09):
Well, we're not here to talk about the cold, and
Ellen (01:10):
we're not,
Marley (01:11):
is shaking their heads at us because I think they really love the cold.
Let's get on with the show.
Ellen (01:16):
let's do it.
We're going to talk aboutleading inclusive rides.
And
2 of our All Bodies onBikes, wonderful leaders
Marley (01:22):
But you might be saying like, okay, how to lead an inclusive ride.
That's like all bodies on bikes.
One on one.
Like, do we really need awhole podcast about this?
But honestly, yes.
I think a lot of us have had theexperience where we go to something
that they say is an inclusiveride or as an inclusive event.
And then you're like, I don't feelwelcome or included here or I've
been dropped off the back or thisis not a welcoming space and Wanted
(01:44):
to bring on Eli and Jacob today.
They are two of our chapter leaders whoalso just have a ton of experience in
other parts of their lives in cultivatinginclusive spaces and wanted to talk about
like what actually goes into making Anevent or a ride inclusive and obviously
this is gonna have like a bike slantto it and talking about bike rides But
I think what we're gonna talk about isapplicable to other types of activities
(02:06):
So let's read their bios real quickbecause these are some folks that are
awesome And I want to tell you aboutthem more than just inclusive rides.
So I'm gonna read Jacob's Doyou want to read Eli's Ellen?
Okay, Jacob Good start Jacob.
Why can't I say your name?
What is happening?
Ellen (02:25):
That's Jacob.
Marley (02:26):
Thank you.
It's because I'm smiling.
Seeing their face makes me smile.
Jacob Shepard Seidel, they, them,is a passionate advocate for
sustainable transportation andoutdoor recreation for everyone.
They have over a decade of experiencefacilitating and cultivating community,
leading outdoor events, and creatingoutdoor opportunities for all.
Jacob works at the Venture Out Project, anon profit creating spaces for queer and
(02:50):
trans folks to access outdoor adventure.
Outside of the office, you canusually find Jacob on a bicycle,
at a swimming hole, or in a tent.
Or, you may find them at one of themany events they host as a leader of
the All Bodies on Bikes chapter inWestern Massachusetts, where they're
building inclusive community for allpeople to move their bodies joyfully.
Beyond all of their outdoor advocacy,Jacob loves to cook, play music,
(03:13):
take photos, and play games.
Welcome to the show, Jacob.
Jacob (03:17):
Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for that introduction, Marley.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Marley (03:23):
That was a great bio.
I might copy it for myself.
Ellen (03:25):
right.
I thought you wrote your own bio, Jacob.
Like.
Marley (03:28):
They did.
Jacob (03:29):
Marley did a lot of really good research.
Yeah,
Ellen (03:33):
Well, I'm very excited then to introduce Eli Costco.
They them is a bike nerd extraordinaireand integrates their love of
bikes into all aspects of theirlife as a recreational writer,
professional bike mechanic and saferoutes and infrastructure advocate.
They find the power and joy of bikesand everything they do and strive to
share that as far and wide as possible.
Eli works at the Esperanza BicycleSafety Education Center, Albuquerque's.
(03:57):
fee free bike shop andbike education facility.
Eli loves spending all day outsideon a bike, sharing in that joyful
movement with others, empoweringother riders with the skills they need
for their bike maintenance journey,sharing knowledge, and helping
others find their own bike joy.
They practice this joy not onlyprofessionally, but through their
volunteer work with All Bodies onBikes, Bike ABQ, and Bikepacking Routes.
(04:19):
You can typically You can typically spotEli riding any off road, gravel path,
commuting by bike, spending time walkingand hiking with their dog Kingsley, and
living out their second career on stageas a percussionist timpaniist in various
orchestras and bands, which is so cool.
Hi Eli.
Eli (04:39):
thanks.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
I don't have any funnyquips like Jacob did.
I did write that myself.
Marley (04:45):
It's great, and I can attest to the fact I've seen Eli
play the drums and they are verygood at it and very fun to watch.
So
Eli (04:51):
thank you.
Marley (04:52):
yeah, welcome to the show you two.
Thanks for taking the time to do this.
So I'm going to startwith a really hard hitter.
Why do inclusive rides matter?
Like, is this just like a feel goodthing that we do because we're a bunch of
softies and want everybody to feel good?
I
Ellen (05:04):
Obviously yes, end of episode.
Marley (05:06):
Maybe I should answer that.
Ellen (05:09):
Okay.
Eli (05:24):
of being interested in bikes, i'm like, let's go I can get you there.
So for me that can be literally anyone,even people who don't currently have a
bike, and that's why inclusivity matters,because I don't want somebody to be like,
Well, I thought about riding, but, I don'tlook like those people, or I don't ride
as fast as those people or whatever it is.
(05:47):
And so it's like, no, no, you can do it.
Jacob (05:49):
Yeah, I I also secretly, not so secretly, have the same agenda as Eli.
Of getting everyone out on bikes.
and, I think it matters fora bunch of different reasons.
I think there's a, like, really internalelement to this, which is the, like,
transformative properties of outdoorrecreation and outdoor adventure.
(06:10):
And I think it's really valuable to giveeveryone an opportunity to access that.
It doesn't mean that this is necessarily.
The activity that they will stickto or that outdoor adventure
will be transformative for them.
But I think for so many of us, we foundit so meaningful and yet providing those
opportunities and allowing people a wayin from whatever background they're coming
(06:33):
from, I think is extremely important.
Marley (06:35):
about
Jacob (06:39):
things, I think.
Ultimately, the more people on bikes, thebetter for, for so many other reasons.
Thinking about safety of all of us onbikes, the more people that ride bikes,
the more bike infrastructure that exists,the safer it is for everybody, the more
access there is for people that aren'talready like really motivated, hardcore
(07:01):
cyclists to ride their bikes places.
And then that, snowballs into climateaction as far as the longevity of us
living on this planet Earth as humanbeings, which you know, I, I say tongue
in cheek, but is like a extremely serious
Marley (07:18):
a very real thing
Ellen (07:19):
for
Jacob (07:25):
out of a car for, for their trip across town.
It's it's a win.
And bike lanes do that.
Other bike infrastructure does thatmore, places to park your bike,
more bike lanes that are safer,protected, connected bike routes.
So it's not just onelane on one busy road.
And then what do you do from there?
And, and the fact of the matter is thatmore people on bikes means that there's
(07:46):
going to be more bike infrastructure,which makes it safer for more people
to get on bikes and out of their cars.
It means that more drivers are going tobe aware and looking for bikes, which
then makes it safer, so more peoplecan get out of their bikes and onto
their cars, or out, excuse me, outof their cars and onto their bikes.
Yeah, I really want to makesure people get onto their cars.
Ellen (08:05):
Just get on and rail against the man.
Like, stand on your hood.
Jacob (08:08):
Exactly, yeah
Marley (08:10):
group rides can be like a gateway drug to more like outdoor recreation,
like using your bike for more adventures.
At least that was my case.
Like I, I started commuting, butI really got into bikes once I
started going on social ridesand I felt like I had community.
But on those rides, it also like.
Taught me how to ride safely in thecity and how to navigate and opened
(08:30):
up this world to me that like, ifI would have been just writing by
myself, I wouldn't have been nearlyas adventurous and exploring.
So I think that's another big benefitto inclusive rides is it shows that like
biking across the city is possible orbiking to a park or biking to, wherever
your group ride might be going I thinkcan be really helpful for folks who
maybe have never considered bikingis like a mode of transportation.
Eli (08:52):
Yeah, I, I resonate with that.
When I moved to Albuquerque a littleover two years ago, I was pretty nervous
to ride around in a new city, like ridearound on the streets and mostly stuck to
the trails until I started attending somegroup rides and using that to like learn
just the different safer routes and thingsthat aren't necessarily on Google Maps
and being able to feel like I couldnavigate my new city more safely and
(09:17):
the ways to use public transportationto connect those things as well.
The group rides really,really helped that.
I was already a really avid rider, butThere's always that nervous thing and
and now I try it like if I'm travelingI'm like going on a group ride somewhere.
It's like a nice way to check out a city
Marley (09:32):
yeah, love that.
What defines an inclusive ride?
Like, are there some hallmarks orlike characteristics of these rides?
Jacob (09:39):
yeah, that's a, that's a really hard hitting question, Marley.
I think and, and honestly, it is becauseit really cuts directly to the core of,
of what it is that we're talking about.
And I think there are elements thatare like at the outset really easy to
identify and then some elements thatare really soft and you have to feel.
I think number 1 that no one is droppedthat no one's gets left behind on the
(10:01):
ride is if it's a really good indicator.
If someone gets left behind,it's not an inclusive, right?
I think other elements are that there'sreally clear information about what to
expect on the ride, that there are leadersthat are making everyone feel comfortable
and welcomed and safe, that, there isn'tany, aggression or, upsetting behavior
(10:22):
from any of the participants on that ride.
Yeah, and then there's alsosoft things just like you show
up and you feel welcomed there.
I mean, I think that's one of thesebiggest soft elements of an inclusive
ride is that, whoever you are, Whereveryou're coming from, you're able to join
and you're able to feel like this spaceis safe for me to be in, and as you're
thinking about this event, , you're notthinking, oh, am I allowed to be here?
(10:45):
Do I have the right equipmentor the right experience?
Or, the right kind of body or any of thesethings to, be able to attend this event,
your questions might be like, oh, I cansee really clearly how fast the ride is
going to be and how long it's going to be.
Do I feel like I'd be ableto do that and have fun?
Will I be included in this experience.
Eli (11:07):
All of those things really hit home for me.
Adding onto the sort of the soft skillsportion of it is not only am I welcome
at this place, but do I feel comfortableto be fully myself when I arrive at this
ride, whether that's on the bike that Ilove riding every day and the clothes that
I ride in, dressed exactly how I dress anddon't have to hide any portion of myself.
(11:29):
Which has a lot wrapped up in it for meand for other riders and stuff like that.
So beyond even the technical skillsneeded to do a ride, is this a space
where I'm going to be like, Nobody'sgoing to look twice at me or nobody's
going to look twice at some of theparticipants coming to my ride.
And then in terms of like, not only arethe ride leaders being welcoming and
(11:51):
engaging with people attending, but iseverybody there engaging with each other.
Is everybody feeling like, I canget along with all these people.
I can make a conversation and meet newpeople at any given time on this ride.
Jacob (12:04):
I totally resonate with all that and thinking as well about the kind of
cultivation of that community where,everybody in that space feels welcomed
in and someone new can join and theywill feel welcomed in and yeah, everyone
feels totally able to bring, their fullself, whatever that looks like to them.
(12:25):
I think those are likereally powerful points.
Marley (12:28):
Yeah, I think Jacob, you make a really good point of, would somebody
new feel comfortable joining this ride?
I think those of us that identifywith all bodies on bikes.
We've had that experience where we'vebeen left behind or didn't feel included.
And so thinking about what I invitea friend who's newer to riding to
this ride is a benchmark for meof, is this ride inclusive or not?
Ellen (12:48):
Yeah.
What I heard too is the group that isthere is as much responsible for creating
that atmosphere as you are as the leader.
So it's your job as the leader tosay, this is the space that I want,
and this is how it's going to be,but also then putting some of the
responsibility and the pride inthat feeling from the whole group.
Jacob (13:08):
I think that's something that a good leader, a good cultivator of
spaces like this can really do well theycan really set the tone and expect the
rest of the group to follow through.
Community norms through,facilitation skills.
Yeah.
Marley (13:23):
That was basically what I was going to say, but one thing we try and
do with all bodies on bikes when trainingour chapter leaders we just trained
a whole new cohort, but is to reallyemphasize that the leaders set the tone.
Not just in welcoming this, but interms of like safety, behavior norms,
how we communicate with each other.
So yes, it is on the participants,but it's usually not hard.
(13:46):
If you as the leader, set the tone thatwe're gonna be friendly, we're gonna
smile, we're gonna welcome folks, we'regonna say, Hey, I'm so glad you're here.
Other people will pick up on that vibe.
Like, I've been to rides herein Bentonville, where similar to
Eli, like I'm not the leader, I'mjust showing up as a participant.
And you just emulate the vibethat is there when you get there.
And, and that can be reallyawkward for me 'cause I want to
(14:08):
make everybody else feel welcome.
But then there becomes this assumptionthat I'm the ride leader and I'm
like, oh no, I'm just here to play.
I'm here to, to ride bikes.
Silence.
Eli (14:25):
showed up to a ride one time like as the first time attending
this well established ride.
And it was like, me Meet up before theride and then the ride starts like 15
minutes later or whatever and I wasthere and I was like, oh, hey Hey,
I'm Eli like blah blah blah and thensomebody in the group was like, oh We'll
do introductions like in a bit and Iwas like, I don't I don't know anyone
(14:47):
though Am I just gonna sit here quietly?
It was it was the weirdest thing andit set the tone I was just like, yep.
This was weird I used to host a ridein Kansas City that I, it was never
clear whether people were comingjust to ride on the trail or coming
for the group that I was hosting.
And I would, every time somebodywould be walking up, I'd be like,
hey, are you here for this thing?
And, sometimes they were, sometimesthey weren't, and they were
(15:09):
like, what are you talking about?
And then we were like,nah, just come anyway.
Okay.
Jacob (15:15):
ended up introducing themselves to you twice?
That could be a really big problem,
Eli (15:20):
I know.
Definitely.
Because I always remember people'snames on the first time and I never
need somebody to say it a second time.
Jacob (15:27):
No, of
Eli (15:28):
do not repeat yourself.
Jacob (15:29):
Yeah, yeah, we'll do introductions later.
We can't.
I don't want to know your name right now.
Eli (15:34):
exactly.
Ellen (15:35):
that's like one of the easiest ways to make sure people do feel like included
is like immediately make eye contactimmediately say hey and like bring them
into your space right like that is so odd
Eli (15:46):
It was, it was weird.
Marley (15:49):
Well, let's talk about the nuts and bolts of inclusive rides.
Everybody thinks they canlead an inclusive ride and
thinks they're capable of it.
But I know that it takes more work thanthat, so I would love to hear from you
all soup to nuts, I don't understand thatexpression, but like, A to Z how do you
Eli (16:04):
I've never heard that.
Marley (16:06):
You've never heard soup to nuts?
Jacob (16:07):
I've heard it, but I also, yeah, where does that come from?
Hang
Marley (16:10):
I
Jacob (16:11):
we need to take a
Eli (16:11):
kind of soup?
Jacob (16:12):
look up the etymology here.
Ellen (16:16):
This is now a Soup to Nuts podcast.
Marley (16:18):
soup to nuts.
I, I, I've heard it.
I don't know.
But you know, from, you get this ideaof like, hey, I want to lead a group
ride, all the way to, it's the day of.
What are you going through?
What does your process look like?
Take us through it.
Eli (16:33):
Take us away, Jacob, with your detailed Excel spreadsheet.
Jacob (16:37):
Oh,
Marley (16:38):
We're not even lying.
Jacob does have an Excel spreadsheet.
Jacob (16:41):
yeah, I
Ellen (16:42):
in slow, salacious detail.
Jacob (16:44):
have an Excel spreadsheet for a lot of things.
This is well, this particular spreadsheetis just a really easy way to track
all of the different little tasksthat go into Putting a ride together.
And then, based on the date of the ride,when they all need to be completed and
whether you're on track for success or yougot to do a little extra work this week.
Marley (17:06):
Heaven right
Jacob (17:07):
yeah.
Ellen (17:07):
I tell you what, I'm breathing heavy over here.
I just have my mic.
Jacob (17:13):
Oh my gosh.
Marley (17:14):
What are some of those tasks?
Silence.
Jacob (17:28):
this ride for specifically.
There's all different kinds ofways to make your ride inclusive.
But you know, if you have a specificaudience, for example, I'm trying to
reach a group of people who work inretail, right, hosting that ride on.
Tuesday at noon, those peoplemight not be available.
So thinking about when you're, when youraudience can be available, what specific
(17:52):
barriers are in their way of getting tothat ride and having a really good time.
And then I, starting from the offset totry from the get go to try to identify
ways of removing those barriers.
So I think that's a really.
I think that's a reallyimportant place to start.
Is not just like jumping right in.
Oh, the ride's going to be here.
It's going to be at this time.
(18:12):
It's going to look like this.
But like starting from thatreally big picture, brainstorming,
who is this ride for?
What are the needs of this audience?
Ellen (18:22):
I want to dig into this a little bit because I think what happens is
people like inclusive means I haveto be trying to cater to everyone.
But what you just said actually isno you can narrow the focus to cater
to one specific audience that hasbeen "othered" in order to bring them
in, like, you have to speak to themdirectly in order to make it inclusive.
So it's kind of this inverse idea.
(18:44):
That purposeful language of speaking theirlanguage to say, this is also for you
and here, let me show you in this way.
Yeah.
Jacob (18:58):
in your community.
And so I think a lot of thetimes we see a lot of rides are
happening like Saturday mornings.
Right.
But for example, a role that I'vebeen in for many years is working
at bike shops, and most bikeshop employees work on Saturdays.
So how is the person at the bike shopgoing to be able to get to that ride,
inclusive or otherwise, if everysingle ride is on a Saturday morning?
(19:20):
So You know, for sure, just becauseof how time works, not every single
thing is going to be accessible byevery single person just because
of scheduling but starting fromlike, okay, where is there a gap?
Who's the audience?
Who am I intending to reach out to?
That's been, systemically leftout that so I can bring them in.
What are the issues they have andwhat are the ways I can address
(19:42):
those barriers to allow them toaccess this kind of programming.
Marley (19:46):
Love that anything to add Eli?
You've thought about who your audienceis what are some other, things
that go into an inclusive ride?
Like, do you have a pre ride talk?
Expectation setting marketing.
Just curious about that.
Eli (19:58):
definitely I think in marketing, one of the key things is like, if you're
trying to be inclusive and make sure thateither certain people or everyone feel
welcome And this is like maybe seemingly astandard marketing thing, but they should
be represented in like maybe in the photosor something that we're posting or if
I'm posting videos and stuff like that.
(20:20):
If I'm showing a ride and I thinkthat it can be done on any bike.
So if I, if I'm like, putting togethera ride that it's like, you don't have
to be on a mountain bike or a roadbike specifically, then maybe I'm
going to include all different typesof bikes in those photos where I'm
saying that this ride is coming up.
Making sure that visually youmight see yourself represented
(20:40):
in, like, what we're doing.
And then definitely giving a preride talk, setting the stage.
There's, an element of, like,intrinsically when I show up somewhere,
I'm like, I look a way that I look, andI'm gonna expect that People are seeing
me as a very just straight up queertrans person that's like, we're gonna be
(21:03):
tolerant of that, and if you're not, Ithink, I would hope you would just like
maybe turn around and walk away, andI don't have to have that conversation
with you but I do like to set that stage.
I think some simple ways that I tryto show inclusivity without like
being blunt in someone's face isintroducing myself and my pronouns.
Sometimes I'll do an introductory questionthat's breaking down some barriers.
(21:25):
Instead of like hey what's your favoritebike to ride but something that doesn't
have anything to do with that what'syour favorite like holiday food is a
really good one which is nice becauseyou get a lot of different cultural
references and questions like that.
I definitely try and Set the stage bybeing who I am and also setting the tone
for making sure that people know thatthis is a space where we welcome all.
(21:49):
People, riders, different styles.
But like to Jacob's point in terms oflike maybe we're gonna do a ride that's
like at a certain time of day to reacha certain audience, Sometimes you're
doing like a mountain biking ride, solike maybe there's a little bit of skill
level or something that goes into that,or a specific type of bike and one of
the ways that I try to make those moreinclusive, It's like, hey, if you don't
(22:10):
have this bike, I have access to a lotof bikes, either my own or friends or
something like that, so be like, hey,you can hit me up if you think maybe
you don't know if your bike is equippedfor this or you don't have a bike.
So breaking down inclusivity barriersby offering equipment is another way.
Jacob (22:25):
Just going to like one of the first and one of the last things
that you were saying, which islike about that equipment piece.
And to me, I think one of the biggestmarketing things is really sharing
a ton of information about the ride.
Trying to make it as clear andconcise as possible, but really
hitting on these major points, right?
Not just, where are we meeting andwhat time are we meeting, but like,
(22:45):
what time are we actually leaving fromthe spot that we say we're meeting at?
What kind of equipment do you need?
So this is what the route is,all of the route information.
This is how long it is.
This is how many feet of climbing it is.
These are any specificallychallenging points.
And that could be.
Thinking broadly, what'schallenging, right?
Someone on a tricycle is going tohave a really challenging time making
(23:06):
it through a really narrow set ofbarriers or getting up on top of a curb.
For some reason, they mightnot even be able to do that.
Someone that's not very experiencedwith riding on busy streets is going
to have a tough time riding on a busyroad, even for just, a few 100 feet.
Someone that has different abilitylevels or different strength levels or
is has a different level of experiencewith with hills might have a harder
(23:31):
time getting up a really steep hill.
So trying to identify anyof those challenging points
in that ride description.
So people know what to expect.
And then with that, what kindof bike you need to bring.
I've hosted rides where it'slike, this ride is fully paved.
Any bicycle, any tricycle, anywheels you have is going to be great.
I've hosted rides that's like,this is a mountain bike ride.
Your bike should have atleast this size tires.
(23:53):
They should be knobby where, theyhave a little bit of extra grip.
And really everything in between.
But I think that, that identification,that like pre set of information.
Is really crucial.
And then, yeah, as, as Eli wassaying, like, when people arrive,
really setting the stage there.
I've got, I have like a script, basicallya template for a pre ride talk that I
(24:18):
like will tweak depending on the ride.
But that's, first of all is likefront loading that information again.
So people that, people sign up for things,they're not always so good at reading
all of the fine print, even if it'sreally big and right in front of them.
Ellen (24:33):
Even if it's large print.
Jacob (24:34):
even if it's large print.
Really?
And I mean, ultimately, peoplejust learn in different ways.
So not everybody can learnfrom reading on a website.
Sometimes you need to tell them about it.
So I'm really reiteratingsome of that information.
This is how long the ride is.
This is what kind of terrainwe're going to get to.
These are the kind of key points.
And then, yeah, it's reallycrucial to have community norms
(24:55):
for the space we're sharing.
So I've got a nice bunch of those.
And then to Eli's point about,like, making sure everyone feels
welcome, especially folks inour queer and trans community.
One of the community norms that I useis don't assume anyone's pronouns.
And if you don't know, you can usea, they pronoun or ask them politely.
But I think that's pretty clear thatanyone that doesn't think pronouns
(25:17):
are real we'll leave at that point.
Um, And that's great because that's,a way that we, as leaders do that
work of setting the tone so thateverybody in that space, Is a welcoming
person for anyone that shows up
Ellen (25:33):
And it can be a big signal, even as an ally, as someone who, like, I
have the pronouns that you'd expect tosee with my particular face, but it's
like, if I just, this is, Very casual,nonchalantly say it's like, Hey, my
name is Ellen and my pronouns are sheher like it opens the door of saying,
I'm welcoming that from you as well.
And I am saying, I expectthese to be respected and
(25:53):
from my, my space of allyship.
, Eli: I've been in a space where I'm like, it goes around this entire
circle and then it comes to me andthen I say my pronouns and I'm the
first person to have said my pronouns.
It's a sense of othering and I'm like,yeah, damn, I'm having to say my pronouns.
Cause otherwise people aregoing to be like, what?
But.
I have to say my pronouns because Iwant you to know my pronouns, yeah,
(26:14):
I appreciate that from you, Ellen.
The through line here too is like the explicitness
of the inclusivity, right?
Of saying, this is an inclusive rightand here's how, even to, I like Jacob,
your points about like the FAQs and therestating things, the group that I lead
in Kansas city is a family bike ride.
And so like thinking of like,what does a family need to know?
(26:36):
If you have young kids,what do you want to know?
And so like, I have an FAQ aboutdo we, or don't we have snacks?
How do you get out of this if mykid is melting down, like it's
stuff that a different audienceisn't going to care about.
You know, me as the ride leaderwho at the time had a two year
old and now it's a four year old.
It's a bit of like, I have had my kidsobbing on the back of my bike before.
I have understood the importanceof having goldfish in my paneers.
(26:59):
Like, how do we make sure that youunderstand that, like, you can show
up as your authentic parenting self?
And not have to feellike that's the barrier.
So just as a hard example of speakingthe language of whoever your audience
is, and of course, like, I thinkeveryone would have an open door
policy anyway, but, like, trying toanticipate it as much so that they
understand that you understand them.
(27:20):
And they're not going to have totry to come to you and say, for
whatever reason, I feel othered, andhere are my specific other concerns
that you have not yet addressed.
Jacob (27:29):
I think that's a really great.
Marley (27:31):
sorry, I was just going to say if you.
When you do cultivate that welcoming,inclusive environment, if there are
other concerns that haven't beenaddressed, I, hopefully that person
then also feels comfortable saying,Hey, I also need this accommodation.
Can we figure it out?
And that's been my experience withall bodies on bikes is, there are
things that we don't do right.
And there are things that we messup on and things that we don't know.
Being open and willing to getfeedback has been awesome for us.
(27:54):
And we have learned so much andlike, we've improved our training
of the chapter leaders and wehave Jacob's spreadsheet and like.
Really just working through thesethings because sometimes things happen.
Things go sideways and get messed up.
Sorry, Jacob.
What were you gonna say?
Jacob (28:07):
No, that's actually really lends itself right into one of the points I
wanted to make which is ultimately anygoal of inclusivity is not a checkbox
that you get to say, I've done it, we'reinclusive, now we can move on from this.
It's really a continual process oflearning and growing and working.
(28:28):
And so I think that's something that a lotof people miss, is that they say, great.
I did the Inclusive Ride Leadertraining, now I'm Inclusive Ride Leader.
And I don't have to learn anythingelse, I know what this is.
And I think that, that is something thatwe do really well, is that we're, we're
listening for feedback, but I thinkwe're also looking to keep learning.
(28:49):
And so I think a great example ofthis for me is I've partnered with
a group locally called All OutAdventures that does outdoor adventure
programming for folks with disabilities.
And when we were partnering on aride, one of the things that they
told me is, for our community,bathroom access is really important.
If we're going out for twohours, we need to know where
bathrooms are along the route.
(29:10):
Because people need to use thebathroom and that's really important
and that to me hadn't been somethingthat I was planning around.
I was like, great, if there'sa bathroom at the start and the
finish, we're, we're probably fine.
And yeah, for different people withdifferent abilities, with different
backgrounds, with different bodies thereare different things that are necessary.
I think that's something where it's.
Really that continual learning processand really valuing that, that seeking
(29:34):
out information where we're not justwaiting for someone to come to us and
say, Hey, I had a problem with this ride.
And of course.
When they do, we will addressthat and we will fix it.
But ideally we're alsodoing a lot of that.
What are the ways that I can learnabout how to keep working on my
inclusivity and making sure thatthese rides really meet the broadest
(29:55):
amount of needs from my community.
Marley (29:57):
Yeah.
One thing that I wanted to talkspecifically with you two about,
because I think you do a reallygood job of this is like longer,
more challenging adventuresomerides that are still inclusive.
Cause I think a lot of folks,get challenged to say, we want
this ride to be inclusive.
And then it's like, okay, it needs to bea five mile cruise at five miles an hour.
How do y'all accommodate andwork towards more challenging
(30:20):
rides that are also inclusive?
Eli (30:21):
I think the key thing is, in your question "work towards".
this past fall I did a series that was,like, working towards a longer, and I
think, Jacob, you did the same thingmaybe a year ago, a series of sort of
building block rides that had an endgoal in mind and maybe, some people are
already at the point where they couldjust like walk out the door and do that
(30:43):
end goal and then maybe some people arelike, actually I want to get to that
and then maybe some people are like,whatever, I don't, I don't even know.
So we were doing, an overnighter that hada certain length, it was at an elevation,
had certain elevation changes and on acertain terrain and I was like, okay,
those are the main points that I want tomake sure that anybody who wants to do
this ride is prepared and ready to do andso in order to do that I just provided
(31:08):
opportunities for people to build theirskills and their confidence, as well
as like practice all of those elements.
So since it was a bikepacking trip, wealso coupled it with, educational series
as well as loaning out of some gear andsome, rides where it's like you can, weigh
yourself down more with these bags andstuff like that and then just a weekly
(31:30):
series of increasing distance, variedterrain, making sure I hit elements of
the elevation that were involved andthen partnered with local Rider here on
doing this like pretty big adventure ridethat was actually like above and beyond
what the distance for the bikepackingevent would be But one that you can do
(31:50):
without the bags and all that kind ofstuff So it's kind of like, I've done
a couple Both long distance gravelrides as well as like, used to do some
like ultra running and stuff like that.
Just taking those elements oftraining that I know I had to do
for myself to physically get toa distance and putting that into
the terms of all bodies on bikes.
Making sure that people felt like theycould achieve that distance without
(32:14):
even, realizing it, I think was oneof the things when I'm talking about,
specifically increasing mileage.
It's a thing that I'd be ridingwith folks and be like, in my head.
I'm like, I know that you can do thisalready, but you've never done it.
You've never tried it.
So what if I just like snuck itin there by next week We're adding
a couple extra miles and theydon't even know Sometimes just
Jacob (32:34):
Oh my God.
Eli (32:36):
sneaky
Jacob (32:37):
you're so sneaky.
Eli (32:38):
Yeah,
Jacob (32:39):
You're so mischievous.
Eli (32:40):
know.
And also I am not sneakybecause I said all of this
Jacob (32:44):
Yeah.
Eli (32:45):
to all of them that I was doing this.
But I think that it worked and I, it wassomething that I didn't achieve alone.
I had a lot of help and also called uponsome of those people knew were interested
in this ride to help lead those rides.
We just called it like a training,a buildup series, I think.
But, Yeah, maybe that's my tacticfor that, is sneakily preparing you
(33:06):
for that by introducing you to theseelements and then at the end of it
you're like, oh, I was able to do that.
And hopefully along the way you findout that it was a fun thing to do.
Jacob (33:18):
Eli, that ride series looked like so much fun.
I was so jealous that I couldn'tbe in Albuquerque, to do that.
It looks like such a blast.
Eli (33:26):
The funny, or not funny, but the ultimate thing that ended up happening is
a freak snowstorm, though, on the weekendof the Overnighter, so we never actually
Jacob (33:33):
Oh no.
Eli (33:34):
So it is rescheduled for this coming May, but yeah, so we ended up not, like,
I mean, beautiful weather leading allthe way up to it, and then it was like,
hypothermic conditions, and I was like, Ithink we're gonna cancel the Overnighter.
But everybody was really ready.
Everybody was
Jacob (33:50):
Everyone is so prepared.
Eli (33:51):
Yeah.
Jacob (33:51):
Well, as Eli was mentioning, I've done some similar, like buildup rides.
But also some like adventure, longer,harder rides that didn't have buildup.
And I think part of what I'mthinking about here goes back to
this idea of who's your audience.
So I think those buildup rides arereally amazing for working with
an audience of folks that are morebeginners or don't have the fitness
(34:14):
or the experience to jump out and doa longer, 20 mile ride, 30 mile ride.
But then I think there is an audience offolks that, that do have that experience
that do have that fitness, but arestill seeking out community with others
in an inclusive way to do those kindsof rides where they don't want to
just join the fully CIS white richdude club ride, they don't want to
(34:39):
just do these rides by themselves.
They want to join with other folks thatare going to make them feel welcomed.
And for stuff like that, I think one ofthe keys is that information overload
where it's like, here's everythingyou need to know about this ride.
Making sure people knowwhat they're getting into.
And then, yeah, we've hosted some justamazing adventure rides, 10, 12, 15 miles,
(35:01):
two or three hours on the bike where we'vegot, just a group of really wonderful
folks that are coming out and doing it.
And it doesn't always work out perfectly.
We did a ride and it's one of thosethings that you don't really expect
when, 15 people sign up and then40 people show up and you're like,
oh, shit, this is going to be fun.
This is gonna be great.
(35:22):
Everyone's beautiful and wonderful.
I love all of you.
We're going to go ride bikes.
But the other thing that happenssometimes is that people just join in.
People just see like a groupof people riding bikes and
they're like, I'm on a bike.
I'm going to join you.
And sometimes those people might beunprepared for the adventurousness
of the route because, they didn'thear the pre ride talk or they
didn't sign up on the website.
(35:42):
They just saw a group of peopleriding bikes and like Eli did a
little sneaky and then, you're ina pretty off road section and they
get a flat tire and you're like, Oh.
Oh yeah, that's probably notthe right bike, for this.
And then you fix their flat tireand then you finish the ride.
Sometimes that can happen when you'redoing adventure rides with 40 people.
Marley (36:01):
Not speaking from experience at
Eli (36:02):
no, I can tell.
Ellen (36:04):
no, not at all.
Jacob (36:05):
Could happen
Marley (36:05):
I think we've all been in that situation and I think, if you set the
tone that we're all going to be therefor each other, it turns what could
be a very frustrating situation intoa, okay, we're going to eat snacks
while people change their flat andit's going to be perfectly fine.
Jacob (36:17):
and, and everyone's prepared and everyone has lights.
And everyone, the ride leader mighthave a few extra sets of lights in
case someone didn't read all theinstructions and didn't bring their
lights and all, all of those good things.
But yeah, always an adventure.
And that's one of the fun thingsis that it is an adventure, right?
We're not doing things that weknow exactly how they're going to
turn out when we set up to do them.
(36:38):
That's one of the things that makesit impactful and transformative.
And that's one of the things that makesit really fun to do in an environment
where you feel like you can trysomething hard, try something something.
That will push you a little bit and feellike you're, you're going to be okay.
You're, you're safe enough to do somethingthat feels maybe a little bit unsafe.
To do something that feels alittle bit of a stretch for you.
(37:00):
And that you're goingto be okay with that.
I
Marley (37:04):
leader retreat and we were talking about the different kinds
of bike rides that we wanted toput on as an organization, I think
we called those kinds of ridesfat people can do hard things too.
Or something along those lines.
Cause there's always the assumption that,like fat people only want to do short,
slow rides or, or something like that,but people of all sizes and shapes like to
do stupid things on bikes that are hard.
So
Ellen (37:25):
Like stupid things on bikes.
Come on.
We have, we can give ourselvesa little more credit than that,
Marley (37:30):
sometimes the things we do are stupid things on bikes.
I have many stories.
Eli (37:33):
yes,
Ellen (37:34):
Fair enough.
Jacob (37:35):
Think it's a term of endearment to say, I'm going to
go do some stupid things on bikes.
Like things that, why wouldyou do that on a bike?
Why, why not just not do that?
It's like, because it's reallyfun, but it is really stupid.
Marley (37:46):
Why am I signed up to ride 100 miles the first weekend of June in Kansas?
Like, I would consider thata stupid thing on a bicycle.
Eli (37:52):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Marley (37:54):
I
Eli (37:55):
Sounds great to me.
Ellen (37:56):
great life experience, right?
The last question on this is how doesthe virtual world fit into all of this?
We're recording this in the middleof winter, not everybody can get out
across the country because there'spolar vortices, and who knows what else.
Is Zwift Are these things, like,what does this look like to
make an inclusive Zwift ride?
Marley (38:18):
can chime in on this because we actively do this with All Bodies on Bikes,
and I want to caveat this by saying thereare inherent problems with virtual rides.
They have access barriers, havingan indoor trainer is expensive,
paying for Zwift can be expensive.
So by its very nature, it's going toexclude some people and that sucks.
But for those who do have a trainer orwho have the equipment to ride indoors
(38:41):
Zwift is a great platform for it.
However, You have to seek out theinclusive rides because if you join
a random group ride, they are oftenlike a race style format where folks
are just trying to go faster andharder than other people and then
you lose the group and then you'relike, cool, why am I doing this?
So what we do at All Bodies on Bikesis we've got a couple social rides
throughout the week now on Zwift.
(39:01):
Those will taper off during thesummer, but right now we use what's
called the rubber band feature.
So it keeps the whole grouptogether as we're riding.
regardless of what paceeach person is going at.
We also put up a discord and we just chatwith each other, which the first time
I was introduced to this concept, I waslike, why in the world would I turn on my
camera and talk to people while I'm heavybreathing and riding this indoor bicycle?
(39:24):
And now I love it.
Like I do it most Monday nights.
And I talk to folks from acrossthe country and we don't always
talk, if we're climbing a Hill,there's a lot less talking.
But it does feel like a regular group ride
Eli (39:35):
I was gonna say it sounds like real life.
Ellen (39:37):
Yeah,
Marley (39:38):
It's exactly what it is.
It's, it's cool.
Ellen (39:40):
that's so cool.
I had not heard the Discord edition.
Marley (39:44):
If folks, want to join in if you find the All Bodies on Bikes club
on Zwift, join the club and then you'llget notified of the different events.
Ellen (39:51):
Oh, nice.
Marley (39:52):
Um, I would love for Eli and Jacob to give a shout out to their individual
chapters and maybe if you've got anythingplanned or in the works or things to
look forward to and it's okay if not,but where can they find you as well?
Um,
Eli (40:21):
The fall that we got weathered out of.
We're gonna do that same series leadingup to it just to scoop everyone back in.
And I think.
We're very lucky here in Albuquerque,I can ride pretty much year round.
Right now, it's quite cold, buteven in the middle of the day,
it's really sunny and warm.
People are still out there ridingand keeping confident on their, on
their handling and stuff like that.
(40:42):
But yeah, we'll do thatsame building series.
Get anybody who missed the firstone on bikepacking basics . But,
we're looking at May 10th to 11th.
Marley (40:50):
Cool.
And we'll have that info up onthe All Bodies on Bikes website
soon just allbodiesonbikes.
com slash events.
Jacob, what's going on in Western Mass?
Jacob (40:58):
sounds great.
So you can, you can find us at, onInstagram cause we just love Instagram.
Abob, A B O B underscore Western Mass.
We're working on a calendar, for 2025.
One of the things I do expect willbe coming up soon, but has not yet
been scheduled or planned would,will be a little sugar shack ride.
(41:20):
So I don't know if this is somethingwhere any of y'all are from, but, but up
here in the Northeast where there's mapletrees, the when it's, when it's sugaring
season, The sugar shacks, are open.
They're making syrup all day and night.
They're just boilingand you just come on in.
They got like pancakes and, allkinds of yummy stuff to eat.
And this is one of the things, everyone'scomplaining about the cold, but, here
(41:43):
in the Northeast, we love the cold.,
I think we'll have a few people out for
one of my favorite things,honestly, which is a bike ride
that ends in something to eat.
Marley (41:51):
When is sugaring season?
Okay.
Jacob (41:53):
That's a great question.
You'd probably have to ask a, a farmer, anarborist, someone that knows more than me.
I just know that sometime in Februaryor March, I'm like, oh, shit, I
should probably go to the sugar shack.
So, but yeah, so that's, that'sprobably the soonest thing, but
we'll be working on a calendar.
We'll probably be doing another bunchof rides in May, which is bike month.
(42:15):
So you do a bunch of programming.
Then we'll probably be doing anotherclass on bike packing one on one, a
class on bike commuting one on one.
We'll probably be doing hopefullyanother swift camp out this year.
Which is always a favorite.
And then, yeah, anotherpride ride as well in June.
And just a bunch of ridesthroughout the year.
So yeah stay, stay in touchon, on the old Instagram.
(42:39):
You can also send us an emailwhich is up on our website, on the,
the all bodies on bikes website.
If you want to get on the mailing list.
So you don't have to go on Instagramto find out what's going on.
Marley (42:50):
Awesome.
Eli (42:51):
Yeah, you know what?
Also myself, Jacob, and Marley havecoming up where if you are not in
one of our local chapters but wantto come say hey and are heading to
Mid South so we'll be, we'll be there
Marley (43:05):
Ellen will be there too.
Eli (43:06):
Oh, and Ellen.
Okay,
Jacob (43:08):
my God.
The whole gang.
Eli (43:10):
this exact conversation again, you can find us at, no, I'm just kidding about
Jacob (43:14):
This
Eli (43:15):
but,
Jacob (43:15):
talk about.
Yeah.
Well, this is all
Ellen (43:16):
is the only
Eli (43:17):
yeah, this is the
Jacob (43:18):
yeah, just turn, turn the microphone on at any
point during a conversation.
This is what you're going to hear.
Marley (43:24):
I mean, not far off.
Ellen (43:26):
it's like, we talk about bikes a lot.
Eli (43:28):
yeah,
Marley (43:29):
Well, this has been absolutely.
Yeah, this has been awesome.
Thank you both so muchfor the work that you do.
And just really enlightening conversation.
Really appreciate you two.
Eli (43:38):
yeah, thank you, yeah.
Ellen (43:40):
you.
All right.
I think we're recording.
Ellen (00:02):
I think we're recording.
We are.
We're for sure recording.
How are you Marley?
Marley (00:05):
I am freezing.
How are you?
Ellen (00:08):
Same!
It has been, it's been a really funcouple of weeks to be on international
calls because it doesn't get as coldas it does here in Kansas City, and
so when I get on and I'm like, here'smy Fahrenheit temperature, and then
I convert it into like mega negativeCelsius, they all just lose their minds.
Marley (00:26):
I was talking to somebody about it today, how I just
haven't really gone outside.
And they're like, but wasn't itcold when you lived in Seattle?
And no, we would have weeks whereit would be like a three degree
temperature variation, usuallyin the forties and fifties.
And I like that.
It's, it's a wet cold,but it's better than this.
Like it was six degrees the other morningwhen I went to take Daisy Mae out.
It was, it was wild.
Ellen (00:45):
but you've been riding pretty well.
Didn't I see you get out the other day?
Marley (00:48):
I did, and I actually, I just went to the coffee shop on
my bike, so I, I know that for mymental health, I have to get fresh
air, and it helps that it's sunny.
It's But I hate it, and I'm,I've worn base layers more than
I ever have in my entire life.
I don't ever wear them,and now I live with them.
Ellen (01:04):
Yeah, that's fair.
I am sitting at my desk witha heated blanket on my lap.
So,
Marley (01:09):
Well, we're not here to talk about the cold, and
Ellen (01:10):
we're not,
Marley (01:11):
is shaking their heads at us because I think they really love the cold.
Let's get on with the show.
Ellen (01:16):
let's do it.
We're going to talk aboutleading inclusive rides.
And
2 of our All Bodies onBikes, wonderful leaders
Marley (01:22):
But you might be saying like, okay, how to lead an inclusive ride.
That's like all bodies on bikes.
One on one.
Like, do we really need awhole podcast about this?
But honestly, yes.
I think a lot of us have had theexperience where we go to something
that they say is an inclusiveride or as an inclusive event.
And then you're like, I don't feelwelcome or included here or I've
been dropped off the back or thisis not a welcoming space and Wanted
(01:44):
to bring on Eli and Jacob today.
They are two of our chapter leaders whoalso just have a ton of experience in
other parts of their lives in cultivatinginclusive spaces and wanted to talk about
like what actually goes into making Anevent or a ride inclusive and obviously
this is gonna have like a bike slantto it and talking about bike rides But
I think what we're gonna talk about isapplicable to other types of activities
(02:06):
So let's read their bios real quickbecause these are some folks that are
awesome And I want to tell you aboutthem more than just inclusive rides.
So I'm gonna read Jacob's Doyou want to read Eli's Ellen?
Okay, Jacob Good start Jacob.
Why can't I say your name?
What is happening?
Ellen (02:25):
That's Jacob.
Marley (02:26):
Thank you.
It's because I'm smiling.
Seeing their face makes me smile.
Jacob Shepard Seidel, they, them,is a passionate advocate for
sustainable transportation andoutdoor recreation for everyone.
They have over a decade of experiencefacilitating and cultivating community,
leading outdoor events, and creatingoutdoor opportunities for all.
Jacob works at the Venture Out Project, anon profit creating spaces for queer and
(02:50):
trans folks to access outdoor adventure.
Outside of the office, you canusually find Jacob on a bicycle,
at a swimming hole, or in a tent.
Or, you may find them at one of themany events they host as a leader of
the All Bodies on Bikes chapter inWestern Massachusetts, where they're
building inclusive community for allpeople to move their bodies joyfully.
Beyond all of their outdoor advocacy,Jacob loves to cook, play music,
(03:13):
take photos, and play games.
Welcome to the show, Jacob.
Jacob (03:17):
Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for that introduction, Marley.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Marley (03:23):
That was a great bio.
I might copy it for myself.
Ellen (03:25):
right.
I thought you wrote your own bio, Jacob.
Like.
Marley (03:28):
They did.
Jacob (03:29):
Marley did a lot of really good research.
Yeah,
Ellen (03:33):
Well, I'm very excited then to introduce Eli Costco.
They them is a bike nerd extraordinaireand integrates their love of
bikes into all aspects of theirlife as a recreational writer,
professional bike mechanic and saferoutes and infrastructure advocate.
They find the power and joy of bikesand everything they do and strive to
share that as far and wide as possible.
Eli works at the Esperanza BicycleSafety Education Center, Albuquerque's.
(03:57):
fee free bike shop andbike education facility.
Eli loves spending all day outsideon a bike, sharing in that joyful
movement with others, empoweringother riders with the skills they need
for their bike maintenance journey,sharing knowledge, and helping
others find their own bike joy.
They practice this joy not onlyprofessionally, but through their
volunteer work with All Bodies onBikes, Bike ABQ, and Bikepacking Routes.
(04:19):
You can typically You can typically spotEli riding any off road, gravel path,
commuting by bike, spending time walkingand hiking with their dog Kingsley, and
living out their second career on stageas a percussionist timpaniist in various
orchestras and bands, which is so cool.
Hi Eli.
Eli (04:39):
thanks.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
I don't have any funnyquips like Jacob did.
I did write that myself.
Marley (04:45):
It's great, and I can attest to the fact I've seen Eli
play the drums and they are verygood at it and very fun to watch.
So
Eli (04:51):
thank you.
Marley (04:52):
yeah, welcome to the show you two.
Thanks for taking the time to do this.
So I'm going to startwith a really hard hitter.
Why do inclusive rides matter?
Like, is this just like a feel goodthing that we do because we're a bunch of
softies and want everybody to feel good?
I
Ellen (05:04):
Obviously yes, end of episode.
Marley (05:06):
Maybe I should answer that.
Ellen (05:09):
Okay.
Eli (05:24):
of being interested in bikes, i'm like, let's go I can get you there.
So for me that can be literally anyone,even people who don't currently have a
bike, and that's why inclusivity matters,because I don't want somebody to be like,
Well, I thought about riding, but, I don'tlook like those people, or I don't ride
as fast as those people or whatever it is.
(05:47):
And so it's like, no, no, you can do it.
Jacob (05:49):
Yeah, I I also secretly, not so secretly, have the same agenda as Eli.
Of getting everyone out on bikes.
and, I think it matters fora bunch of different reasons.
I think there's a, like, really internalelement to this, which is the, like,
transformative properties of outdoorrecreation and outdoor adventure.
(06:10):
And I think it's really valuable to giveeveryone an opportunity to access that.
It doesn't mean that this is necessarily.
The activity that they will stickto or that outdoor adventure
will be transformative for them.
But I think for so many of us, we foundit so meaningful and yet providing those
opportunities and allowing people a wayin from whatever background they're coming
(06:33):
from, I think is extremely important.
Marley (06:35):
about
Jacob (06:39):
things, I think.
Ultimately, the more people on bikes, thebetter for, for so many other reasons.
Thinking about safety of all of us onbikes, the more people that ride bikes,
the more bike infrastructure that exists,the safer it is for everybody, the more
access there is for people that aren'talready like really motivated, hardcore
(07:01):
cyclists to ride their bikes places.
And then that, snowballs into climateaction as far as the longevity of us
living on this planet Earth as humanbeings, which you know, I, I say tongue
in cheek, but is like a extremely serious
Marley (07:18):
a very real thing
Ellen (07:19):
for
Jacob (07:25):
out of a car for, for their trip across town.
It's it's a win.
And bike lanes do that.
Other bike infrastructure does thatmore, places to park your bike,
more bike lanes that are safer,protected, connected bike routes.
So it's not just onelane on one busy road.
And then what do you do from there?
And, and the fact of the matter is thatmore people on bikes means that there's
(07:46):
going to be more bike infrastructure,which makes it safer for more people
to get on bikes and out of their cars.
It means that more drivers are going tobe aware and looking for bikes, which
then makes it safer, so more peoplecan get out of their bikes and onto
their cars, or out, excuse me, outof their cars and onto their bikes.
Yeah, I really want to makesure people get onto their cars.
Ellen (08:05):
Just get on and rail against the man.
Like, stand on your hood.
Jacob (08:08):
Exactly, yeah
Marley (08:10):
group rides can be like a gateway drug to more like outdoor recreation,
like using your bike for more adventures.
At least that was my case.
Like I, I started commuting, butI really got into bikes once I
started going on social ridesand I felt like I had community.
But on those rides, it also like.
Taught me how to ride safely in thecity and how to navigate and opened
(08:30):
up this world to me that like, ifI would have been just writing by
myself, I wouldn't have been nearlyas adventurous and exploring.
So I think that's another big benefitto inclusive rides is it shows that like
biking across the city is possible orbiking to a park or biking to, wherever
your group ride might be going I thinkcan be really helpful for folks who
maybe have never considered bikingis like a mode of transportation.
Eli (08:52):
Yeah, I, I resonate with that.
When I moved to Albuquerque a littleover two years ago, I was pretty nervous
to ride around in a new city, like ridearound on the streets and mostly stuck to
the trails until I started attending somegroup rides and using that to like learn
just the different safer routes and thingsthat aren't necessarily on Google Maps
and being able to feel like I couldnavigate my new city more safely and
(09:17):
the ways to use public transportationto connect those things as well.
The group rides really,really helped that.
I was already a really avid rider, butThere's always that nervous thing and
and now I try it like if I'm travelingI'm like going on a group ride somewhere.
It's like a nice way to check out a city
Marley (09:32):
yeah, love that.
What defines an inclusive ride?
Like, are there some hallmarks orlike characteristics of these rides?
Jacob (09:39):
yeah, that's a, that's a really hard hitting question, Marley.
I think and, and honestly, it is becauseit really cuts directly to the core of,
of what it is that we're talking about.
And I think there are elements thatare like at the outset really easy to
identify and then some elements thatare really soft and you have to feel.
I think number 1 that no one is droppedthat no one's gets left behind on the
(10:01):
ride is if it's a really good indicator.
If someone gets left behind,it's not an inclusive, right?
I think other elements are that there'sreally clear information about what to
expect on the ride, that there are leadersthat are making everyone feel comfortable
and welcomed and safe, that, there isn'tany, aggression or, upsetting behavior
(10:22):
from any of the participants on that ride.
Yeah, and then there's alsosoft things just like you show
up and you feel welcomed there.
I mean, I think that's one of thesebiggest soft elements of an inclusive
ride is that, whoever you are, Whereveryou're coming from, you're able to join
and you're able to feel like this spaceis safe for me to be in, and as you're
thinking about this event, , you're notthinking, oh, am I allowed to be here?
(10:45):
Do I have the right equipmentor the right experience?
Or, the right kind of body or any of thesethings to, be able to attend this event,
your questions might be like, oh, I cansee really clearly how fast the ride is
going to be and how long it's going to be.
Do I feel like I'd be ableto do that and have fun?
Will I be included in this experience.
Eli (11:07):
All of those things really hit home for me.
Adding onto the sort of the soft skillsportion of it is not only am I welcome
at this place, but do I feel comfortableto be fully myself when I arrive at this
ride, whether that's on the bike that Ilove riding every day and the clothes that
I ride in, dressed exactly how I dress anddon't have to hide any portion of myself.
(11:29):
Which has a lot wrapped up in it for meand for other riders and stuff like that.
So beyond even the technical skillsneeded to do a ride, is this a space
where I'm going to be like, Nobody'sgoing to look twice at me or nobody's
going to look twice at some of theparticipants coming to my ride.
And then in terms of like, not only arethe ride leaders being welcoming and
(11:51):
engaging with people attending, but iseverybody there engaging with each other.
Is everybody feeling like, I canget along with all these people.
I can make a conversation and meet newpeople at any given time on this ride.
Jacob (12:04):
I totally resonate with all that and thinking as well about the kind of
cultivation of that community where,everybody in that space feels welcomed
in and someone new can join and theywill feel welcomed in and yeah, everyone
feels totally able to bring, their fullself, whatever that looks like to them.
(12:25):
I think those are likereally powerful points.
Marley (12:28):
Yeah, I think Jacob, you make a really good point of, would somebody
new feel comfortable joining this ride?
I think those of us that identifywith all bodies on bikes.
We've had that experience where we'vebeen left behind or didn't feel included.
And so thinking about what I invitea friend who's newer to riding to
this ride is a benchmark for meof, is this ride inclusive or not?
Ellen (12:48):
Yeah.
What I heard too is the group that isthere is as much responsible for creating
that atmosphere as you are as the leader.
So it's your job as the leader tosay, this is the space that I want,
and this is how it's going to be,but also then putting some of the
responsibility and the pride inthat feeling from the whole group.
Jacob (13:08):
I think that's something that a good leader, a good cultivator of
spaces like this can really do well theycan really set the tone and expect the
rest of the group to follow through.
Community norms through,facilitation skills.
Yeah.
Marley (13:23):
That was basically what I was going to say, but one thing we try and
do with all bodies on bikes when trainingour chapter leaders we just trained
a whole new cohort, but is to reallyemphasize that the leaders set the tone.
Not just in welcoming this, but interms of like safety, behavior norms,
how we communicate with each other.
So yes, it is on the participants,but it's usually not hard.
(13:46):
If you as the leader, set the tone thatwe're gonna be friendly, we're gonna
smile, we're gonna welcome folks, we'regonna say, Hey, I'm so glad you're here.
Other people will pick up on that vibe.
Like, I've been to rides herein Bentonville, where similar to
Eli, like I'm not the leader, I'mjust showing up as a participant.
And you just emulate the vibethat is there when you get there.
And, and that can be reallyawkward for me 'cause I want to
(14:08):
make everybody else feel welcome.
But then there becomes this assumptionthat I'm the ride leader and I'm
like, oh no, I'm just here to play.
I'm here to, to ride bikes.
Silence.
Eli (14:25):
showed up to a ride one time like as the first time attending
this well established ride.
And it was like, me Meet up before theride and then the ride starts like 15
minutes later or whatever and I wasthere and I was like, oh, hey Hey,
I'm Eli like blah blah blah and thensomebody in the group was like, oh We'll
do introductions like in a bit and Iwas like, I don't I don't know anyone
(14:47):
though Am I just gonna sit here quietly?
It was it was the weirdest thing andit set the tone I was just like, yep.
This was weird I used to host a ridein Kansas City that I, it was never
clear whether people were comingjust to ride on the trail or coming
for the group that I was hosting.
And I would, every time somebodywould be walking up, I'd be like,
hey, are you here for this thing?
And, sometimes they were, sometimesthey weren't, and they were
(15:09):
like, what are you talking about?
And then we were like,nah, just come anyway.
Okay.
Jacob (15:15):
ended up introducing themselves to you twice?
That could be a really big problem,
Eli (15:20):
I know.
Definitely.
Because I always remember people'snames on the first time and I never
need somebody to say it a second time.
Jacob (15:27):
No, of
Eli (15:28):
do not repeat yourself.
Jacob (15:29):
Yeah, yeah, we'll do introductions later.
We can't.
I don't want to know your name right now.
Eli (15:34):
exactly.
Ellen (15:35):
that's like one of the easiest ways to make sure people do feel like included
is like immediately make eye contactimmediately say hey and like bring them
into your space right like that is so odd
Eli (15:46):
It was, it was weird.
Marley (15:49):
Well, let's talk about the nuts and bolts of inclusive rides.
Everybody thinks they canlead an inclusive ride and
thinks they're capable of it.
But I know that it takes more work thanthat, so I would love to hear from you
all soup to nuts, I don't understand thatexpression, but like, A to Z how do you
Eli (16:04):
I've never heard that.
Marley (16:06):
You've never heard soup to nuts?
Jacob (16:07):
I've heard it, but I also, yeah, where does that come from?
Hang
Marley (16:10):
I
Jacob (16:11):
we need to take a
Eli (16:11):
kind of soup?
Jacob (16:12):
look up the etymology here.
Ellen (16:16):
This is now a Soup to Nuts podcast.
Marley (16:18):
soup to nuts.
I, I, I've heard it.
I don't know.
But you know, from, you get this ideaof like, hey, I want to lead a group
ride, all the way to, it's the day of.
What are you going through?
What does your process look like?
Take us through it.
Eli (16:33):
Take us away, Jacob, with your detailed Excel spreadsheet.
Jacob (16:37):
Oh,
Marley (16:38):
We're not even lying.
Jacob does have an Excel spreadsheet.
Jacob (16:41):
yeah, I
Ellen (16:42):
in slow, salacious detail.
Jacob (16:44):
have an Excel spreadsheet for a lot of things.
This is well, this particular spreadsheetis just a really easy way to track
all of the different little tasksthat go into Putting a ride together.
And then, based on the date of the ride,when they all need to be completed and
whether you're on track for success or yougot to do a little extra work this week.
Marley (17:06):
Heaven right
Jacob (17:07):
yeah.
Ellen (17:07):
I tell you what, I'm breathing heavy over here.
I just have my mic.
Jacob (17:13):
Oh my gosh.
Marley (17:14):
What are some of those tasks?
Silence.
Jacob (17:28):
this ride for specifically.
There's all different kinds ofways to make your ride inclusive.
But you know, if you have a specificaudience, for example, I'm trying to
reach a group of people who work inretail, right, hosting that ride on.
Tuesday at noon, those peoplemight not be available.
So thinking about when you're, when youraudience can be available, what specific
(17:52):
barriers are in their way of getting tothat ride and having a really good time.
And then I, starting from the offset totry from the get go to try to identify
ways of removing those barriers.
So I think that's a really.
I think that's a reallyimportant place to start.
Is not just like jumping right in.
Oh, the ride's going to be here.
It's going to be at this time.
(18:12):
It's going to look like this.
But like starting from thatreally big picture, brainstorming,
who is this ride for?
What are the needs of this audience?
Ellen (18:22):
I want to dig into this a little bit because I think what happens is
people like inclusive means I haveto be trying to cater to everyone.
But what you just said actually isno you can narrow the focus to cater
to one specific audience that hasbeen "othered" in order to bring them
in, like, you have to speak to themdirectly in order to make it inclusive.
So it's kind of this inverse idea.
(18:44):
That purposeful language of speaking theirlanguage to say, this is also for you
and here, let me show you in this way.
Yeah.
Jacob (18:58):
in your community.
And so I think a lot of thetimes we see a lot of rides are
happening like Saturday mornings.
Right.
But for example, a role that I'vebeen in for many years is working
at bike shops, and most bikeshop employees work on Saturdays.
So how is the person at the bike shopgoing to be able to get to that ride,
inclusive or otherwise, if everysingle ride is on a Saturday morning?
(19:20):
So You know, for sure, just becauseof how time works, not every single
thing is going to be accessible byevery single person just because
of scheduling but starting fromlike, okay, where is there a gap?
Who's the audience?
Who am I intending to reach out to?
That's been, systemically leftout that so I can bring them in.
What are the issues they have andwhat are the ways I can address
(19:42):
those barriers to allow them toaccess this kind of programming.
Marley (19:46):
Love that anything to add Eli?
You've thought about who your audienceis what are some other, things
that go into an inclusive ride?
Like, do you have a pre ride talk?
Expectation setting marketing.
Just curious about that.
Eli (19:58):
definitely I think in marketing, one of the key things is like, if you're
trying to be inclusive and make sure thateither certain people or everyone feel
welcome And this is like maybe seemingly astandard marketing thing, but they should
be represented in like maybe in the photosor something that we're posting or if
I'm posting videos and stuff like that.
(20:20):
If I'm showing a ride and I thinkthat it can be done on any bike.
So if I, if I'm like, putting togethera ride that it's like, you don't have
to be on a mountain bike or a roadbike specifically, then maybe I'm
going to include all different typesof bikes in those photos where I'm
saying that this ride is coming up.
Making sure that visually youmight see yourself represented
(20:40):
in, like, what we're doing.
And then definitely giving a preride talk, setting the stage.
There's, an element of, like,intrinsically when I show up somewhere,
I'm like, I look a way that I look, andI'm gonna expect that People are seeing
me as a very just straight up queertrans person that's like, we're gonna be
(21:03):
tolerant of that, and if you're not, Ithink, I would hope you would just like
maybe turn around and walk away, andI don't have to have that conversation
with you but I do like to set that stage.
I think some simple ways that I tryto show inclusivity without like
being blunt in someone's face isintroducing myself and my pronouns.
Sometimes I'll do an introductory questionthat's breaking down some barriers.
(21:25):
Instead of like hey what's your favoritebike to ride but something that doesn't
have anything to do with that what'syour favorite like holiday food is a
really good one which is nice becauseyou get a lot of different cultural
references and questions like that.
I definitely try and Set the stage bybeing who I am and also setting the tone
for making sure that people know thatthis is a space where we welcome all.
(21:49):
People, riders, different styles.
But like to Jacob's point in terms oflike maybe we're gonna do a ride that's
like at a certain time of day to reacha certain audience, Sometimes you're
doing like a mountain biking ride, solike maybe there's a little bit of skill
level or something that goes into that,or a specific type of bike and one of
the ways that I try to make those moreinclusive, It's like, hey, if you don't
(22:10):
have this bike, I have access to a lotof bikes, either my own or friends or
something like that, so be like, hey,you can hit me up if you think maybe
you don't know if your bike is equippedfor this or you don't have a bike.
So breaking down inclusivity barriersby offering equipment is another way.
Jacob (22:25):
Just going to like one of the first and one of the last things
that you were saying, which islike about that equipment piece.
And to me, I think one of the biggestmarketing things is really sharing
a ton of information about the ride.
Trying to make it as clear andconcise as possible, but really
hitting on these major points, right?
Not just, where are we meeting andwhat time are we meeting, but like,
(22:45):
what time are we actually leaving fromthe spot that we say we're meeting at?
What kind of equipment do you need?
So this is what the route is,all of the route information.
This is how long it is.
This is how many feet of climbing it is.
These are any specificallychallenging points.
And that could be.
Thinking broadly, what'schallenging, right?
Someone on a tricycle is going tohave a really challenging time making
(23:06):
it through a really narrow set ofbarriers or getting up on top of a curb.
For some reason, they mightnot even be able to do that.
Someone that's not very experiencedwith riding on busy streets is going
to have a tough time riding on a busyroad, even for just, a few 100 feet.
Someone that has different abilitylevels or different strength levels or
is has a different level of experiencewith with hills might have a harder
(23:31):
time getting up a really steep hill.
So trying to identify anyof those challenging points
in that ride description.
So people know what to expect.
And then with that, what kindof bike you need to bring.
I've hosted rides where it'slike, this ride is fully paved.
Any bicycle, any tricycle, anywheels you have is going to be great.
I've hosted rides that's like,this is a mountain bike ride.
Your bike should have atleast this size tires.
(23:53):
They should be knobby where, theyhave a little bit of extra grip.
And really everything in between.
But I think that, that identification,that like pre set of information.
Is really crucial.
And then, yeah, as, as Eli wassaying, like, when people arrive,
really setting the stage there.
I've got, I have like a script, basicallya template for a pre ride talk that I
(24:18):
like will tweak depending on the ride.
But that's, first of all is likefront loading that information again.
So people that, people sign up for things,they're not always so good at reading
all of the fine print, even if it'sreally big and right in front of them.
Ellen (24:33):
Even if it's large print.
Jacob (24:34):
even if it's large print.
Really?
And I mean, ultimately, peoplejust learn in different ways.
So not everybody can learnfrom reading on a website.
Sometimes you need to tell them about it.
So I'm really reiteratingsome of that information.
This is how long the ride is.
This is what kind of terrainwe're going to get to.
These are the kind of key points.
And then, yeah, it's reallycrucial to have community norms
(24:55):
for the space we're sharing.
So I've got a nice bunch of those.
And then to Eli's point about,like, making sure everyone feels
welcome, especially folks inour queer and trans community.
One of the community norms that I useis don't assume anyone's pronouns.
And if you don't know, you can usea, they pronoun or ask them politely.
But I think that's pretty clear thatanyone that doesn't think pronouns
(25:17):
are real we'll leave at that point.
Um, And that's great because that's,a way that we, as leaders do that
work of setting the tone so thateverybody in that space, Is a welcoming
person for anyone that shows up
Ellen (25:33):
And it can be a big signal, even as an ally, as someone who, like, I
have the pronouns that you'd expect tosee with my particular face, but it's
like, if I just, this is, Very casual,nonchalantly say it's like, Hey, my
name is Ellen and my pronouns are sheher like it opens the door of saying,
I'm welcoming that from you as well.
And I am saying, I expectthese to be respected and
(25:53):
from my, my space of allyship.
, Eli: I've been in a space where I'm like, it goes around this entire
circle and then it comes to me andthen I say my pronouns and I'm the
first person to have said my pronouns.
It's a sense of othering and I'm like,yeah, damn, I'm having to say my pronouns.
Cause otherwise people aregoing to be like, what?
But.
I have to say my pronouns because Iwant you to know my pronouns, yeah,
(26:14):
I appreciate that from you, Ellen.
The through line here too is like the explicitness
of the inclusivity, right?
Of saying, this is an inclusive rightand here's how, even to, I like Jacob,
your points about like the FAQs and therestating things, the group that I lead
in Kansas city is a family bike ride.
And so like thinking of like,what does a family need to know?
(26:36):
If you have young kids,what do you want to know?
And so like, I have an FAQ aboutdo we, or don't we have snacks?
How do you get out of this if mykid is melting down, like it's
stuff that a different audienceisn't going to care about.
You know, me as the ride leaderwho at the time had a two year
old and now it's a four year old.
It's a bit of like, I have had my kidsobbing on the back of my bike before.
I have understood the importanceof having goldfish in my paneers.
(26:59):
Like, how do we make sure that youunderstand that, like, you can show
up as your authentic parenting self?
And not have to feellike that's the barrier.
So just as a hard example of speakingthe language of whoever your audience
is, and of course, like, I thinkeveryone would have an open door
policy anyway, but, like, trying toanticipate it as much so that they
understand that you understand them.
(27:20):
And they're not going to have totry to come to you and say, for
whatever reason, I feel othered, andhere are my specific other concerns
that you have not yet addressed.
Jacob (27:29):
I think that's a really great.
Marley (27:31):
sorry, I was just going to say if you.
When you do cultivate that welcoming,inclusive environment, if there are
other concerns that haven't beenaddressed, I, hopefully that person
then also feels comfortable saying,Hey, I also need this accommodation.
Can we figure it out?
And that's been my experience withall bodies on bikes is, there are
things that we don't do right.
And there are things that we messup on and things that we don't know.
Being open and willing to getfeedback has been awesome for us.
(27:54):
And we have learned so much andlike, we've improved our training
of the chapter leaders and wehave Jacob's spreadsheet and like.
Really just working through thesethings because sometimes things happen.
Things go sideways and get messed up.
Sorry, Jacob.
What were you gonna say?
Jacob (28:07):
No, that's actually really lends itself right into one of the points I
wanted to make which is ultimately anygoal of inclusivity is not a checkbox
that you get to say, I've done it, we'reinclusive, now we can move on from this.
It's really a continual process oflearning and growing and working.
(28:28):
And so I think that's something that a lotof people miss, is that they say, great.
I did the Inclusive Ride Leadertraining, now I'm Inclusive Ride Leader.
And I don't have to learn anythingelse, I know what this is.
And I think that, that is something thatwe do really well, is that we're, we're
listening for feedback, but I thinkwe're also looking to keep learning.
(28:49):
And so I think a great example ofthis for me is I've partnered with
a group locally called All OutAdventures that does outdoor adventure
programming for folks with disabilities.
And when we were partnering on aride, one of the things that they
told me is, for our community,bathroom access is really important.
If we're going out for twohours, we need to know where
bathrooms are along the route.
(29:10):
Because people need to use thebathroom and that's really important
and that to me hadn't been somethingthat I was planning around.
I was like, great, if there'sa bathroom at the start and the
finish, we're, we're probably fine.
And yeah, for different people withdifferent abilities, with different
backgrounds, with different bodies thereare different things that are necessary.
I think that's something where it's.
Really that continual learning processand really valuing that, that seeking
(29:34):
out information where we're not justwaiting for someone to come to us and
say, Hey, I had a problem with this ride.
And of course.
When they do, we will addressthat and we will fix it.
But ideally we're alsodoing a lot of that.
What are the ways that I can learnabout how to keep working on my
inclusivity and making sure thatthese rides really meet the broadest
(29:55):
amount of needs from my community.
Marley (29:57):
Yeah.
One thing that I wanted to talkspecifically with you two about,
because I think you do a reallygood job of this is like longer,
more challenging adventuresomerides that are still inclusive.
Cause I think a lot of folks,get challenged to say, we want
this ride to be inclusive.
And then it's like, okay, it needs to bea five mile cruise at five miles an hour.
How do y'all accommodate andwork towards more challenging
(30:20):
rides that are also inclusive?
Eli (30:21):
I think the key thing is, in your question "work towards".
this past fall I did a series that was,like, working towards a longer, and I
think, Jacob, you did the same thingmaybe a year ago, a series of sort of
building block rides that had an endgoal in mind and maybe, some people are
already at the point where they couldjust like walk out the door and do that
(30:43):
end goal and then maybe some people arelike, actually I want to get to that
and then maybe some people are like,whatever, I don't, I don't even know.
So we were doing, an overnighter that hada certain length, it was at an elevation,
had certain elevation changes and on acertain terrain and I was like, okay,
those are the main points that I want tomake sure that anybody who wants to do
this ride is prepared and ready to do andso in order to do that I just provided
(31:08):
opportunities for people to build theirskills and their confidence, as well
as like practice all of those elements.
So since it was a bikepacking trip, wealso coupled it with, educational series
as well as loaning out of some gear andsome, rides where it's like you can, weigh
yourself down more with these bags andstuff like that and then just a weekly
(31:30):
series of increasing distance, variedterrain, making sure I hit elements of
the elevation that were involved andthen partnered with local Rider here on
doing this like pretty big adventure ridethat was actually like above and beyond
what the distance for the bikepackingevent would be But one that you can do
(31:50):
without the bags and all that kind ofstuff So it's kind of like, I've done
a couple Both long distance gravelrides as well as like, used to do some
like ultra running and stuff like that.
Just taking those elements oftraining that I know I had to do
for myself to physically get toa distance and putting that into
the terms of all bodies on bikes.
Making sure that people felt like theycould achieve that distance without
(32:14):
even, realizing it, I think was oneof the things when I'm talking about,
specifically increasing mileage.
It's a thing that I'd be ridingwith folks and be like, in my head.
I'm like, I know that you can do thisalready, but you've never done it.
You've never tried it.
So what if I just like snuck itin there by next week We're adding
a couple extra miles and theydon't even know Sometimes just
Jacob (32:34):
Oh my God.
Eli (32:36):
sneaky
Jacob (32:37):
you're so sneaky.
Eli (32:38):
Yeah,
Jacob (32:39):
You're so mischievous.
Eli (32:40):
know.
And also I am not sneakybecause I said all of this
Jacob (32:44):
Yeah.
Eli (32:45):
to all of them that I was doing this.
But I think that it worked and I, it wassomething that I didn't achieve alone.
I had a lot of help and also called uponsome of those people knew were interested
in this ride to help lead those rides.
We just called it like a training,a buildup series, I think.
But, Yeah, maybe that's my tacticfor that, is sneakily preparing you
(33:06):
for that by introducing you to theseelements and then at the end of it
you're like, oh, I was able to do that.
And hopefully along the way you findout that it was a fun thing to do.
Jacob (33:18):
Eli, that ride series looked like so much fun.
I was so jealous that I couldn'tbe in Albuquerque, to do that.
It looks like such a blast.
Eli (33:26):
The funny, or not funny, but the ultimate thing that ended up happening is
a freak snowstorm, though, on the weekendof the Overnighter, so we never actually
Jacob (33:33):
Oh no.
Eli (33:34):
So it is rescheduled for this coming May, but yeah, so we ended up not, like,
I mean, beautiful weather leading allthe way up to it, and then it was like,
hypothermic conditions, and I was like, Ithink we're gonna cancel the Overnighter.
But everybody was really ready.
Everybody was
Jacob (33:50):
Everyone is so prepared.
Eli (33:51):
Yeah.
Jacob (33:51):
Well, as Eli was mentioning, I've done some similar, like buildup rides.
But also some like adventure, longer,harder rides that didn't have buildup.
And I think part of what I'mthinking about here goes back to
this idea of who's your audience.
So I think those buildup rides arereally amazing for working with
an audience of folks that are morebeginners or don't have the fitness
(34:14):
or the experience to jump out and doa longer, 20 mile ride, 30 mile ride.
But then I think there is an audience offolks that, that do have that experience
that do have that fitness, but arestill seeking out community with others
in an inclusive way to do those kindsof rides where they don't want to
just join the fully CIS white richdude club ride, they don't want to
(34:39):
just do these rides by themselves.
They want to join with other folks thatare going to make them feel welcomed.
And for stuff like that, I think one ofthe keys is that information overload
where it's like, here's everythingyou need to know about this ride.
Making sure people knowwhat they're getting into.
And then, yeah, we've hosted some justamazing adventure rides, 10, 12, 15 miles,
(35:01):
two or three hours on the bike where we'vegot, just a group of really wonderful
folks that are coming out and doing it.
And it doesn't always work out perfectly.
We did a ride and it's one of thosethings that you don't really expect
when, 15 people sign up and then40 people show up and you're like,
oh, shit, this is going to be fun.
This is gonna be great.
(35:22):
Everyone's beautiful and wonderful.
I love all of you.
We're going to go ride bikes.
But the other thing that happenssometimes is that people just join in.
People just see like a groupof people riding bikes and
they're like, I'm on a bike.
I'm going to join you.
And sometimes those people might beunprepared for the adventurousness
of the route because, they didn'thear the pre ride talk or they
didn't sign up on the website.
(35:42):
They just saw a group of peopleriding bikes and like Eli did a
little sneaky and then, you're ina pretty off road section and they
get a flat tire and you're like, Oh.
Oh yeah, that's probably notthe right bike, for this.
And then you fix their flat tireand then you finish the ride.
Sometimes that can happen when you'redoing adventure rides with 40 people.
Marley (36:01):
Not speaking from experience at
Eli (36:02):
no, I can tell.
Ellen (36:04):
no, not at all.
Jacob (36:05):
Could happen
Marley (36:05):
I think we've all been in that situation and I think, if you set the
tone that we're all going to be therefor each other, it turns what could
be a very frustrating situation intoa, okay, we're going to eat snacks
while people change their flat andit's going to be perfectly fine.
Jacob (36:17):
and, and everyone's prepared and everyone has lights.
And everyone, the ride leader mighthave a few extra sets of lights in
case someone didn't read all theinstructions and didn't bring their
lights and all, all of those good things.
But yeah, always an adventure.
And that's one of the fun thingsis that it is an adventure, right?
We're not doing things that weknow exactly how they're going to
turn out when we set up to do them.
(36:38):
That's one of the things that makesit impactful and transformative.
And that's one of the things that makesit really fun to do in an environment
where you feel like you can trysomething hard, try something something.
That will push you a little bit and feellike you're, you're going to be okay.
You're, you're safe enough to do somethingthat feels maybe a little bit unsafe.
To do something that feels alittle bit of a stretch for you.
(37:00):
And that you're goingto be okay with that.
I
Marley (37:04):
leader retreat and we were talking about the different kinds
of bike rides that we wanted toput on as an organization, I think
we called those kinds of ridesfat people can do hard things too.
Or something along those lines.
Cause there's always the assumption that,like fat people only want to do short,
slow rides or, or something like that,but people of all sizes and shapes like to
do stupid things on bikes that are hard.
So
Ellen (37:25):
Like stupid things on bikes.
Come on.
We have, we can give ourselvesa little more credit than that,
Marley (37:30):
sometimes the things we do are stupid things on bikes.
I have many stories.
Eli (37:33):
yes,
Ellen (37:34):
Fair enough.
Jacob (37:35):
Think it's a term of endearment to say, I'm going to
go do some stupid things on bikes.
Like things that, why wouldyou do that on a bike?
Why, why not just not do that?
It's like, because it's reallyfun, but it is really stupid.
Marley (37:46):
Why am I signed up to ride 100 miles the first weekend of June in Kansas?
Like, I would consider thata stupid thing on a bicycle.
Eli (37:52):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Marley (37:54):
I
Eli (37:55):
Sounds great to me.
Ellen (37:56):
great life experience, right?
The last question on this is how doesthe virtual world fit into all of this?
We're recording this in the middleof winter, not everybody can get out
across the country because there'spolar vortices, and who knows what else.
Is Zwift Are these things, like,what does this look like to
make an inclusive Zwift ride?
Marley (38:18):
can chime in on this because we actively do this with All Bodies on Bikes,
and I want to caveat this by saying thereare inherent problems with virtual rides.
They have access barriers, havingan indoor trainer is expensive,
paying for Zwift can be expensive.
So by its very nature, it's going toexclude some people and that sucks.
But for those who do have a trainer orwho have the equipment to ride indoors
(38:41):
Zwift is a great platform for it.
However, You have to seek out theinclusive rides because if you join
a random group ride, they are oftenlike a race style format where folks
are just trying to go faster andharder than other people and then
you lose the group and then you'relike, cool, why am I doing this?
So what we do at All Bodies on Bikesis we've got a couple social rides
throughout the week now on Zwift.
(39:01):
Those will taper off during thesummer, but right now we use what's
called the rubber band feature.
So it keeps the whole grouptogether as we're riding.
regardless of what paceeach person is going at.
We also put up a discord and we just chatwith each other, which the first time
I was introduced to this concept, I waslike, why in the world would I turn on my
camera and talk to people while I'm heavybreathing and riding this indoor bicycle?
(39:24):
And now I love it.
Like I do it most Monday nights.
And I talk to folks from acrossthe country and we don't always
talk, if we're climbing a Hill,there's a lot less talking.
But it does feel like a regular group ride
Eli (39:35):
I was gonna say it sounds like real life.
Ellen (39:37):
Yeah,
Marley (39:38):
It's exactly what it is.
It's, it's cool.
Ellen (39:40):
that's so cool.
I had not heard the Discord edition.
Marley (39:44):
If folks, want to join in if you find the All Bodies on Bikes club
on Zwift, join the club and then you'llget notified of the different events.
Ellen (39:51):
Oh, nice.
Marley (39:52):
Um, I would love for Eli and Jacob to give a shout out to their individual
chapters and maybe if you've got anythingplanned or in the works or things to
look forward to and it's okay if not,but where can they find you as well?
Um,
Eli (40:21):
The fall that we got weathered out of.
We're gonna do that same series leadingup to it just to scoop everyone back in.
And I think.
We're very lucky here in Albuquerque,I can ride pretty much year round.
Right now, it's quite cold, buteven in the middle of the day,
it's really sunny and warm.
People are still out there ridingand keeping confident on their, on
their handling and stuff like that.
(40:42):
But yeah, we'll do thatsame building series.
Get anybody who missed the firstone on bikepacking basics . But,
we're looking at May 10th to 11th.
Marley (40:50):
Cool.
And we'll have that info up onthe All Bodies on Bikes website
soon just allbodiesonbikes.
com slash events.
Jacob, what's going on in Western Mass?
Jacob (40:58):
sounds great.
So you can, you can find us at, onInstagram cause we just love Instagram.
Abob, A B O B underscore Western Mass.
We're working on a calendar, for 2025.
One of the things I do expect willbe coming up soon, but has not yet
been scheduled or planned would,will be a little sugar shack ride.
(41:20):
So I don't know if this is somethingwhere any of y'all are from, but, but up
here in the Northeast where there's mapletrees, the when it's, when it's sugaring
season, The sugar shacks, are open.
They're making syrup all day and night.
They're just boilingand you just come on in.
They got like pancakes and, allkinds of yummy stuff to eat.
And this is one of the things, everyone'scomplaining about the cold, but, here
(41:43):
in the Northeast, we love the cold.,
I think we'll have a few people out for
one of my favorite things,honestly, which is a bike ride
that ends in something to eat.
Marley (41:51):
When is sugaring season?
Okay.
Jacob (41:53):
That's a great question.
You'd probably have to ask a, a farmer, anarborist, someone that knows more than me.
I just know that sometime in Februaryor March, I'm like, oh, shit, I
should probably go to the sugar shack.
So, but yeah, so that's, that'sprobably the soonest thing, but
we'll be working on a calendar.
We'll probably be doing another bunchof rides in May, which is bike month.
(42:15):
So you do a bunch of programming.
Then we'll probably be doing anotherclass on bike packing one on one, a
class on bike commuting one on one.
We'll probably be doing hopefullyanother swift camp out this year.
Which is always a favorite.
And then, yeah, anotherpride ride as well in June.
And just a bunch of ridesthroughout the year.
So yeah stay, stay in touchon, on the old Instagram.
(42:39):
You can also send us an emailwhich is up on our website, on the,
the all bodies on bikes website.
If you want to get on the mailing list.
So you don't have to go on Instagramto find out what's going on.
Marley (42:50):
Awesome.
Eli (42:51):
Yeah, you know what?
Also myself, Jacob, and Marley havecoming up where if you are not in
one of our local chapters but wantto come say hey and are heading to
Mid South so we'll be, we'll be there
Marley (43:05):
Ellen will be there too.
Eli (43:06):
Oh, and Ellen.
Okay,
Jacob (43:08):
my God.
The whole gang.
Eli (43:10):
this exact conversation again, you can find us at, no, I'm just kidding about
Jacob (43:14):
This
Eli (43:15):
but,
Jacob (43:15):
talk about.
Yeah.
Well, this is all
Ellen (43:16):
is the only
Eli (43:17):
yeah, this is the
Jacob (43:18):
yeah, just turn, turn the microphone on at any
point during a conversation.
This is what you're going to hear.
Marley (43:24):
I mean, not far off.
Ellen (43:26):
it's like, we talk about bikes a lot.
Eli (43:28):
yeah,
Marley (43:29):
Well, this has been absolutely.
Yeah, this has been awesome.
Thank you both so muchfor the work that you do.
And just really enlightening conversation.
Really appreciate you two.
Eli (43:38):
yeah, thank you, yeah.
Ellen (43:40):
you.
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