Voices for Change by A&O Shearman builds a community of inclusive thinkers and thought leaders. Join Justin Farrance, our Global DE&I Ambassador, as he interviews colleagues and clients about their personal stories, commitment to inclusion and advice for others to learn from. Stay up to date with new episodes every month.
Episode 3 launches to coincide with the International Day of Persons with Disabilities on Tuesday, December 3. This episode aims to raise awareness about the positive impact of employing individuals with additional needs – both for the benefit of our firm and wider society.
Justin is joined by Florence Garrett, a conference waiter who has Down Syndrome. Florence shares her personal story, and the valuable contributions she makes both in her job, as well as with various charities and external organizations.
Together with David Campbell (partner) and Campbell Brown (catering general manager), the episode suggests different ways in which organisations can set people with additional needs up for success, and a call to action for others to extend their support for similar initiatives.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:43):
So I'm really excited about this podcast today, which
I hope will raise awareness for those with Down Syndrome.
I would love for each of you to just share your
name and the job that you do here within the firm.
So, Florence, would we start with you?
Okay, so my name is Florence Garrettand I am a Conference and Training Waiter.
Perfect, thank you. David?
(01:03):
My name is David Campbell, I'm a partner in our finance team, and the main reason
I'm here today is that my eldest son has Down Syndrome.
Thanks David, and Campbell, over to you.
My name's Campbell Brown, I head up all the catering and events at A&O Shearman
and I helped deliver and support this innovation.
Florence, I would love to start with you and to ask for those watching who perhaps
(01:27):
are less familiar, what is Down Syndrome?
Down Syndrome is a condition, and probably David would tell you about what is
Down Syndrome and how it connects with the condition.
And people with disabilities and people with Down Syndrome can live independently.
(01:48):
And for you, what is it like day to day to live with Down Syndrome?
Sometimes it's quite hard, and sometimes it's quite easy.
And you shared with us earlier that you live in your own apartment now?
Yeah, I'm living at the moment in my own house, but I'm
moving onto a flat, which is more independent than the house.
(02:13):
And David, turning to you as you said in your intro, your son has Down Syndrome.
For those listening, would you be able to share a bit more about what that's like
as a parent, or some of the things you've picked up
having first-hand experience living with your son?
Well, we didn't know anything about Down
Syndrome until Sam was born. We learned pretty fast.
(02:33):
We didn't know in advance of him being born that he had the condition.
Down Syndrome is a genetic condition. All of us have 23 sets of chromosomes.
And if you have Down Syndrome, you have an extra
chromosome. You have three chromosomes of chromosome number 21.
So it's sometimes called Trisomy 21.
There are lots of other genetic conditions, but Down Syndrome is the most common.
(02:55):
About one in a thousand babies in the world who are born have Down Syndrome.
But it's primarily a learning difficulty as well, which means that people with Down
Syndrome sometimes need a bit of extra help to learn things in a different way.
Or you might need to be taught something in a different
way, and there are some things you'll need extra help with.
So we've learned that with Sam. He's now 15, and he went to mainstream primary
(03:19):
school with a bit of extra help in the class.
And he's now been at a special school for five
years, a special secondary school for five years.
And David, staying with you the idea of trying to get the firm more involved in
either recruiting, working with or supporting those with Down Syndrome,
as a senior figure within A&OShearman, could you share a bit more about how that
(03:41):
idea first came about and the things that you did to make it possible?
Well, it all came about by chance, really.
Every year there's World Down Syndrome Day on March 21st.
Trisomy 21, so 21st day of thethird month, as well as the Down Syndrome Day.
And three years ago Sting, the musician, released on
Down Syndrome a day a video called The Hiring Chain.
(04:01):
It's really good. Google it, look it up. It's a very catchy tune, and it's about
someone who has Down Syndrome and is employed in a baker's,
and someone else sees them working there, and thinks,
"Oh, we could employ someone with Down Syndrome as well."
And it goes on, and more and more people get jobs.
And it's designed to show that people with Down
Syndrome, like Florence, can hold down a successful job.
And I thought it was a really good advert, so I
(04:22):
emailed it to the board and to Exco, with the note saying,
"Hey, this is great. Take two minutes out of your day
and watch this, and maybe we could do something like that."
And I got some lovely messages back, and Jason Haines, who
was our finance director at the time, took it up and said,
"Actually, we should do something like this."
And he brought the idea to the next heads
of department of business services meeting.
(04:45):
And eventually, we then got round two, Searcy's, where Campbell is, and the idea came
to take on one or two people with Down Syndrome,
and then Campbell took it over. And there's
huge credit to all the people who made this happen.
And everyone was very enthusiastic, and
everyone jumped on the idea really quickly, actually.
We then got the Down Syndrome Association in, who do a program called WorkFit,
(05:09):
which is to help dispel some of the myths of working with people with Down Syndrome
and some of the problems or issues that employers might worry about.
And they came in and did a session talking about how they
would support people with Down Syndrome working in a workplace,
and how they support the employer as well.
And then Campbell, you took it on from there, didn't you?
We sort of picked it off from there.
(05:30):
Yeah, I came over from an old law firm a couple of
years ago, and we worked with the Shoreditch Trust,
and Well Grounded so I was used to working with Charities.
When I came intothe Catering Department here,
there wasn't anything we were doing at the time,
and it sounded like a great opportunity to take us forward.
We contacted Alison at WorkFit. Alison came in and had a look at the operation,
(05:54):
looked at some of the areas we could put people into work, i.e. Florence.
And we have got another chap called Toby as well,
who works in the kitchen. He's absolutely fantastic.
And then we looked at where the operation could support Florence and Toby,
and then had some awareness training with all the
staff, not just like managers, not just the buddies,
(06:15):
but as many staff as we possibly could get on board with the training.
I'm really interested in that. So it's gone from
idea to getting approval to then implementation.
I'd love to just stay on the point of setting people up for success.
You mentioned the training that you did and a buddy scheme.
Would you be able to just talk a bit more about that for those listening,
(06:36):
about how they too could set others up for success once it's implemented?
We've opened it up to people. People are aware
that they work in the same space as other people.
And I think it is really important that everybody gets on board,
and everybody moves in the same direction,
has the same sort of journey and support.
Florence comes down to me sometimes, and
she gets worried about her buddies sometimes.
(06:58):
And I always tell her, "We're all your buddies. Don't worry about it."
If there's not one besides you, there's somebody else there for you."
I love that. And Florence, turning to you, some of the
things you enjoy most about having a job in this building,
would you be able to share one or two of the things you
enjoy most about working and walking around here day to day?
Seeing all the lawyers, all the lawyers,
(07:23):
it's quite interesting to know what they're doing.
I've been watching a law firm program called
Suits, and I know what the law firm looks like.
And I also like the people who I work with as well.
You like the people you work with?
Yeah.
And you're sharing that sometimes you interact
with clients and other visitors in the building.
(07:44):
What's that like?
I like that as well.
Yeah, you enjoy that.
But you need to know when to talk to them,
because when I go in, if there's a refresh in a room,
I can't talk to them because they're already doing their meetings.
That makes sense.
And David, one of the things I'm really interested in about
the role you've played in setting this scheme up for success
(08:05):
is that we're supporting diversity and inclusion
schemes that go beyond the four walls of our office.
As a senior figure, why do you think it's so
important that our organization, our clients,
those within the legal industry, are extending their support beyond the four walls
of what's happening in this building here?
(08:27):
Well, obviously, I've got a personal interest in this.
My oldest son hasDown Syndrome, and he's
only 15 now, so he's not on the job market just yet.
But when he does, when he finishes college and finishes his formal learning,
I hope there's an employer who will take him on and will
see beyond his disability and will see what he can offer.
There are many things he can do, many things that
(08:48):
Florence is doing, not just here because we want to help out.
You're doing a valuable job, you're helping out our clients, you're working on the
first floor and doing a job that needs doing.
I think that's really important. Everyone wants to do a job.
The reason we're all here, we're partly for the money,
but partly because we enjoy it, we like working with people,
we like the situation, we like being useful and
being part of a community and part of a team of people.
(09:11):
People with Down Syndrome are no different to that. That's what Sam wants. He wants
to be around people, he wants to get out and do something.
He wants to be...
He wants to be socialised.
Yeah, he wants to be socialised. He wants to be independent.
I mean, you're talking about you're in your place
in Twickenham and you're going to move into a flat.
That's what I mean, Sam is 15, he's already talking about that.
That must be a bit early.
But he wants to be independentthat's what everyone wants
(09:32):
and people with Down Syndrome are not different to that
it's really importanti think it's also important for people
who work here, and for our clientsto see there is something outside these four walls
we spend a lot of time looking at these complicated things
and dealing with people are quiet similar
and important to remember we are part of a wider society
(09:54):
w ere not everyone is staring atdocuments all day
or doing the job of a lawyer
there's a whole world outthere full of different people
and it makes it more interesting
and seeing Florence around the placeand seeing other people
it brings a diversity to the workplacewhich means
it's more enjoyableas well as more
representative without our society.
I think it's great.
Completely.
And Campbell, I would love for this podcast
(10:17):
to plant a few seeds or ideas for other organisations
to take that first step.
What would be your advice or key learnings
from how the journey hasgone with A&O Shearman and Searcy's
to encourage others to make that first step?
I know it can be quite daunting
taking these challenges on,
(10:37):
but I think the first thing you should do is just do it.
Just take it on board, do it.
It's well worthwhile.
It's the human thing to do.
It's great for Florence, Toby,
they're part of our team, they contribute to the business.
So yeah, it's that first step.
But once you take that first step
and the support networks are there with WorkFit,
(11:00):
Alison, who was my liaison with WorkFit, is fantastic.
They helped us for the first six months,
getting through the most challenging times,
but after that, they can just sit back and let us get on with it.
It's a fear of the unknown, isn't it? Yes.
You're talking about people who aren't comfortable
in the situation.
It's like I get overwhelmed in the first few months
when I started working here two years ago.
(11:22):
And with the support, I know my buddies are there
to help me with the challenges
what's going on in my life.
So yeah.
So that's a great advert to other people who come in.
So clients and lawyers who will see you working here
I think actually, maybe we should do that.
And someone Down syndrome can hold down this job
(11:42):
and can be doing something useful in our workplace.
And it's great, because your role is so visible,
other people will see you.
And that's great.
It is largely about getting over that fear though, isn't it?
Because people who haven't met anyone with Down syndrome
will think, well, how are they gonna work?
How will it work?
Will it all, how will we work properly with them?
Will it all go wrong suddenly?
(12:02):
I think it was a barrier.
It was a barrier with staff.
They just didn't know how to deal with the situation.
And it's all down to, are we honest
in how to deal with those situations and support.
And as for having a buddy system,
it's also very good in the first few months when I'm here.
And I think what I'm hearing is
it's not about an abundance of resistance at all.
(12:25):
It's actually just a lack of awareness
and people wanting to support,
sign up to be a buddy, do the training.
But it's just that fear of making a mistake
or that fear of not putting your best foot forward,
which is what every well-intentioned person wants to do.
So I think those points you've made
around setting yourself up for success,
being in contact in those first few months
with an organization, it's really important
(12:47):
to make sure that we're putting our best foot forward.
And it's really good as well.
It's quite important that it needs to come from
the sort of leaders of the business as well.
Because a lot of the staff, I remember Toby,
I can't remember if it was Florence as well.
Toby was sitting having his lunch on his own one day
and I just went over and sat beside him,
had lunch with him, and had the conversation.
And after that, people started going,
(13:09):
well, if you can do it, we can do it.
So that was really important for them to feel like
they were part of the team and the organization.
Now Florence, one thing I was really excited
to ask you about was you have your job internally,
but there's so much you do outside of work
to support and campaign for those with Down Syndrome.
Did you wanna share a bit more about that?
(13:31):
Yeah, so there's a charity I do
outside of working.
So I'm doing that tonight called
the National Down Syndrome Policy Advisory Group.
And so what I do in that charity,
I am an ambassador for and to raise awareness
(13:52):
and talk about Down Syndrome,
trying to promote things on Facebook as well.
And if there was one thing from a conversation
we had earlier that you could share with others
or you wish society would know more about
from your experience of having Down Syndrome,
what would you tell other people?
I try to tell other people that you can do this.
(14:15):
It just needs to be positive and carry on.
I love that, thank you.
And David, to you as a parent of someone with Down Syndrome,
what would be a message you would share
with those listening who perhaps fear making mistakes
or have never met someone with Down Syndrome?
I think Campbell summed it up actually,
just do it, try.
(14:35):
I mean, people with Down Syndrome are in many ways
similar to everyone else.
There'll be different needs
and Florence, you've talked about that a bit,
but there's nothing to fear.
The tone coming from the top is also important.
So what you did there with Toby,
so going and sitting with him,
the tone that came from the top,
when I emailed the board and Exco,
(14:57):
there was nothing but support.
And that's really important.
And Wim has talked about this before,
Herve has spoken about it.
So it's really important that everyone else
in the business can see that that leadership
and that openness to working with people
with diverse needs comes right from the top.
That's really important.
It's easy for me as apartner to email Exco and the board.
(15:19):
I know half the people anyway
have been working here for so long.
But I think it's also important for leaders of a business
to show openness to other people contacting them
and saying that, hey, we should do this,
have you thought about that?
Because if you're a leader in a business,
you'll have a certain set of experiences,
but there are so many other people in these organisations
(15:39):
who have very different experience,
different contacts, different ideas,
and you've got to foster a culture
where people will come to you and say,
hey, why don't we try this?
Which we're lucky that this place is pretty open to that.
I can agree more.
And I think as well don't hide people away.
I mean, Florence works on the client floor on the first floor.
(16:00):
Don't hide people.
I mean, I think you were saying earlier on
that you don't see many people with Down Syndrome.
Because if they do have a job,
they tend to be hidden away somewhere,
they should be front side with everybody else.
And planting those small seeds,
as you both said, are so important.
So with you, Florence, you meet our people in the business,
you meet our clients, you meet visitors coming
(16:22):
into the office.
So that natural awareness you're raising
is really powerful, isn't it, for those coming in?
It's not just what I do outside of work.
It was outside of work.
I swim for Great Britain,
but I swim for with,
it's not normal Olympics or Paralympics,
(16:43):
or special Olympics.
But what I do is more like people with Down Syndrome.
I, there's another way to,
people with Down Syndrome can swim.
But what they do is they,
there's another charity called the Down Syndrome
(17:04):
Swimming Great Britain, and they're a part with that as well.
Yeah, it's important for people to see
that you can be in every space,
that everyone else can be within society.
And you can also do really well within those spaces as well.
It's not just that you're taking up space,
you're thriving within the spaces that you're in.
So I was gonna ask you a question,
what does it mean to your family and your friends
(17:25):
that you have this job?
I have the job I do here at the moment.
Yeah, what do they think of it?
That is so happy for me to do all the jobs I do every week.
That is really pleased.
I'll bet.
And I get like, my mum thinks that,
(17:46):
my daughter's got Down Syndrome,
and she's so independent by going into,
like going to a workplace, yeah.
And Florence, if seeing you now doing so well
with your job, independent living,
if there was one thing you could say to your younger self
when you were younger, what would you tell yourself back then
(18:08):
that you wish you could?
I think to be more confident,
but I have a question for you.
Oh, thank you, yes, I'll answer.
That, how did you get interested
with people's Down Syndrome in this podcast?
Really good question.
(18:30):
Actually one of the reasons I decided to become a lawyer
at this firm when I first did my training
was because I met David on campus at a careers fair
and the influence he's given for me,
the reasons that I joined this firm,
seeing him openly speak about his son,
(18:50):
one of the campaigns he mentioned earlier in the podcast
was one I saw him post about,
and it got me interested in what more could I do
in my diversity and inclusion role to advocate for others.
It's been a good learning experience for me
to actually see people far more senior than I am,
advocate for others, share campaigns
that perhaps don't reach the media as much as others.
(19:14):
I really liked the campaign done
for Down Syndrome Awareness Day this year.
Is that next March?
Yes, the next one will be in March,
but the one this year really allowed me to learn a lot
and think what more can I do
to open the conversation and to raise awareness.
So I guess this podcast is another way
(19:34):
in which we can champion diversity
and raise awareness really.
Voices for Change was built, as I said,
as a podcast for inclusive thinkers and doers.
I just wanted to thank all of you
for giving up your time today,
and I hope for those watching or listening,
it's planted some seeds about how they can take this
beyond a podcast and implement some change
(19:55):
within their organization.
Thank you.
Thanks, Justin. Thank you.
Thanks.
So I'm really excited about this podcast today, which
I hope will raise awareness for those with Down Syndrome.
I would love for each of you to just share your
name and the job that you do here within the firm.
So, Florence, would we start with you?
Okay, so my name is Florence Garrettand I am a Conference and Training Waiter.
Perfect, thank you. David?
(01:03):
My name is David Campbell, I'm a partner in our finance team, and the main reason
I'm here today is that my eldest son has Down Syndrome.
Thanks David, and Campbell, over to you.
My name's Campbell Brown, I head up all the catering and events at A&O Shearman
and I helped deliver and support this innovation.
Florence, I would love to start with you and to ask for those watching who perhaps
(01:27):
are less familiar, what is Down Syndrome?
Down Syndrome is a condition, and probably David would tell you about what is
Down Syndrome and how it connects with the condition.
And people with disabilities and people with Down Syndrome can live independently.
(01:48):
And for you, what is it like day to day to live with Down Syndrome?
Sometimes it's quite hard, and sometimes it's quite easy.
And you shared with us earlier that you live in your own apartment now?
Yeah, I'm living at the moment in my own house, but I'm
moving onto a flat, which is more independent than the house.
(02:13):
And David, turning to you as you said in your intro, your son has Down Syndrome.
For those listening, would you be able to share a bit more about what that's like
as a parent, or some of the things you've picked up
having first-hand experience living with your son?
Well, we didn't know anything about Down
Syndrome until Sam was born. We learned pretty fast.
(02:33):
We didn't know in advance of him being born that he had the condition.
Down Syndrome is a genetic condition. All of us have 23 sets of chromosomes.
And if you have Down Syndrome, you have an extra
chromosome. You have three chromosomes of chromosome number 21.
So it's sometimes called Trisomy 21.
There are lots of other genetic conditions, but Down Syndrome is the most common.
(02:55):
About one in a thousand babies in the world who are born have Down Syndrome.
But it's primarily a learning difficulty as well, which means that people with Down
Syndrome sometimes need a bit of extra help to learn things in a different way.
Or you might need to be taught something in a different
way, and there are some things you'll need extra help with.
So we've learned that with Sam. He's now 15, and he went to mainstream primary
(03:19):
school with a bit of extra help in the class.
And he's now been at a special school for five
years, a special secondary school for five years.
And David, staying with you the idea of trying to get the firm more involved in
either recruiting, working with or supporting those with Down Syndrome,
as a senior figure within A&OShearman, could you share a bit more about how that
(03:41):
idea first came about and the things that you did to make it possible?
Well, it all came about by chance, really.
Every year there's World Down Syndrome Day on March 21st.
Trisomy 21, so 21st day of thethird month, as well as the Down Syndrome Day.
And three years ago Sting, the musician, released on
Down Syndrome a day a video called The Hiring Chain.
(04:01):
It's really good. Google it, look it up. It's a very catchy tune, and it's about
someone who has Down Syndrome and is employed in a baker's,
and someone else sees them working there, and thinks,
"Oh, we could employ someone with Down Syndrome as well."
And it goes on, and more and more people get jobs.
And it's designed to show that people with Down
Syndrome, like Florence, can hold down a successful job.
And I thought it was a really good advert, so I
(04:22):
emailed it to the board and to Exco, with the note saying,
"Hey, this is great. Take two minutes out of your day
and watch this, and maybe we could do something like that."
And I got some lovely messages back, and Jason Haines, who
was our finance director at the time, took it up and said,
"Actually, we should do something like this."
And he brought the idea to the next heads
of department of business services meeting.
(04:45):
And eventually, we then got round two, Searcy's, where Campbell is, and the idea came
to take on one or two people with Down Syndrome,
and then Campbell took it over. And there's
huge credit to all the people who made this happen.
And everyone was very enthusiastic, and
everyone jumped on the idea really quickly, actually.
We then got the Down Syndrome Association in, who do a program called WorkFit,
(05:09):
which is to help dispel some of the myths of working with people with Down Syndrome
and some of the problems or issues that employers might worry about.
And they came in and did a session talking about how they
would support people with Down Syndrome working in a workplace,
and how they support the employer as well.
And then Campbell, you took it on from there, didn't you?
We sort of picked it off from there.
(05:30):
Yeah, I came over from an old law firm a couple of
years ago, and we worked with the Shoreditch Trust,
and Well Grounded so I was used to working with Charities.
When I came intothe Catering Department here,
there wasn't anything we were doing at the time,
and it sounded like a great opportunity to take us forward.
We contacted Alison at WorkFit. Alison came in and had a look at the operation,
(05:54):
looked at some of the areas we could put people into work, i.e. Florence.
And we have got another chap called Toby as well,
who works in the kitchen. He's absolutely fantastic.
And then we looked at where the operation could support Florence and Toby,
and then had some awareness training with all the
staff, not just like managers, not just the buddies,
(06:15):
but as many staff as we possibly could get on board with the training.
I'm really interested in that. So it's gone from
idea to getting approval to then implementation.
I'd love to just stay on the point of setting people up for success.
You mentioned the training that you did and a buddy scheme.
Would you be able to just talk a bit more about that for those listening,
(06:36):
about how they too could set others up for success once it's implemented?
We've opened it up to people. People are aware
that they work in the same space as other people.
And I think it is really important that everybody gets on board,
and everybody moves in the same direction,
has the same sort of journey and support.
Florence comes down to me sometimes, and
she gets worried about her buddies sometimes.
(06:58):
And I always tell her, "We're all your buddies. Don't worry about it."
If there's not one besides you, there's somebody else there for you."
I love that. And Florence, turning to you, some of the
things you enjoy most about having a job in this building,
would you be able to share one or two of the things you
enjoy most about working and walking around here day to day?
Seeing all the lawyers, all the lawyers,
(07:23):
it's quite interesting to know what they're doing.
I've been watching a law firm program called
Suits, and I know what the law firm looks like.
And I also like the people who I work with as well.
You like the people you work with?
Yeah.
And you're sharing that sometimes you interact
with clients and other visitors in the building.
(07:44):
What's that like?
I like that as well.
Yeah, you enjoy that.
But you need to know when to talk to them,
because when I go in, if there's a refresh in a room,
I can't talk to them because they're already doing their meetings.
That makes sense.
And David, one of the things I'm really interested in about
the role you've played in setting this scheme up for success
(08:05):
is that we're supporting diversity and inclusion
schemes that go beyond the four walls of our office.
As a senior figure, why do you think it's so
important that our organization, our clients,
those within the legal industry, are extending their support beyond the four walls
of what's happening in this building here?
(08:27):
Well, obviously, I've got a personal interest in this.
My oldest son hasDown Syndrome, and he's
only 15 now, so he's not on the job market just yet.
But when he does, when he finishes college and finishes his formal learning,
I hope there's an employer who will take him on and will
see beyond his disability and will see what he can offer.
There are many things he can do, many things that
(08:48):
Florence is doing, not just here because we want to help out.
You're doing a valuable job, you're helping out our clients, you're working on the
first floor and doing a job that needs doing.
I think that's really important. Everyone wants to do a job.
The reason we're all here, we're partly for the money,
but partly because we enjoy it, we like working with people,
we like the situation, we like being useful and
being part of a community and part of a team of people.
(09:11):
People with Down Syndrome are no different to that. That's what Sam wants. He wants
to be around people, he wants to get out and do something.
He wants to be...
He wants to be socialised.
Yeah, he wants to be socialised. He wants to be independent.
I mean, you're talking about you're in your place
in Twickenham and you're going to move into a flat.
That's what I mean, Sam is 15, he's already talking about that.
That must be a bit early.
But he wants to be independentthat's what everyone wants
(09:32):
and people with Down Syndrome are not different to that
it's really importanti think it's also important for people
who work here, and for our clientsto see there is something outside these four walls
we spend a lot of time looking at these complicated things
and dealing with people are quiet similar
and important to remember we are part of a wider society
(09:54):
w ere not everyone is staring atdocuments all day
or doing the job of a lawyer
there's a whole world outthere full of different people
and it makes it more interesting
and seeing Florence around the placeand seeing other people
it brings a diversity to the workplacewhich means
it's more enjoyableas well as more
representative without our society.
I think it's great.
Completely.
And Campbell, I would love for this podcast
(10:17):
to plant a few seeds or ideas for other organisations
to take that first step.
What would be your advice or key learnings
from how the journey hasgone with A&O Shearman and Searcy's
to encourage others to make that first step?
I know it can be quite daunting
taking these challenges on,
(10:37):
but I think the first thing you should do is just do it.
Just take it on board, do it.
It's well worthwhile.
It's the human thing to do.
It's great for Florence, Toby,
they're part of our team, they contribute to the business.
So yeah, it's that first step.
But once you take that first step
and the support networks are there with WorkFit,
(11:00):
Alison, who was my liaison with WorkFit, is fantastic.
They helped us for the first six months,
getting through the most challenging times,
but after that, they can just sit back and let us get on with it.
It's a fear of the unknown, isn't it? Yes.
You're talking about people who aren't comfortable
in the situation.
It's like I get overwhelmed in the first few months
when I started working here two years ago.
(11:22):
And with the support, I know my buddies are there
to help me with the challenges
what's going on in my life.
So yeah.
So that's a great advert to other people who come in.
So clients and lawyers who will see you working here
I think actually, maybe we should do that.
And someone Down syndrome can hold down this job
(11:42):
and can be doing something useful in our workplace.
And it's great, because your role is so visible,
other people will see you.
And that's great.
It is largely about getting over that fear though, isn't it?
Because people who haven't met anyone with Down syndrome
will think, well, how are they gonna work?
How will it work?
Will it all, how will we work properly with them?
Will it all go wrong suddenly?
(12:02):
I think it was a barrier.
It was a barrier with staff.
They just didn't know how to deal with the situation.
And it's all down to, are we honest
in how to deal with those situations and support.
And as for having a buddy system,
it's also very good in the first few months when I'm here.
And I think what I'm hearing is
it's not about an abundance of resistance at all.
(12:25):
It's actually just a lack of awareness
and people wanting to support,
sign up to be a buddy, do the training.
But it's just that fear of making a mistake
or that fear of not putting your best foot forward,
which is what every well-intentioned person wants to do.
So I think those points you've made
around setting yourself up for success,
being in contact in those first few months
with an organization, it's really important
(12:47):
to make sure that we're putting our best foot forward.
And it's really good as well.
It's quite important that it needs to come from
the sort of leaders of the business as well.
Because a lot of the staff, I remember Toby,
I can't remember if it was Florence as well.
Toby was sitting having his lunch on his own one day
and I just went over and sat beside him,
had lunch with him, and had the conversation.
And after that, people started going,
(13:09):
well, if you can do it, we can do it.
So that was really important for them to feel like
they were part of the team and the organization.
Now Florence, one thing I was really excited
to ask you about was you have your job internally,
but there's so much you do outside of work
to support and campaign for those with Down Syndrome.
Did you wanna share a bit more about that?
(13:31):
Yeah, so there's a charity I do
outside of working.
So I'm doing that tonight called
the National Down Syndrome Policy Advisory Group.
And so what I do in that charity,
I am an ambassador for and to raise awareness
(13:52):
and talk about Down Syndrome,
trying to promote things on Facebook as well.
And if there was one thing from a conversation
we had earlier that you could share with others
or you wish society would know more about
from your experience of having Down Syndrome,
what would you tell other people?
I try to tell other people that you can do this.
(14:15):
It just needs to be positive and carry on.
I love that, thank you.
And David, to you as a parent of someone with Down Syndrome,
what would be a message you would share
with those listening who perhaps fear making mistakes
or have never met someone with Down Syndrome?
I think Campbell summed it up actually,
just do it, try.
(14:35):
I mean, people with Down Syndrome are in many ways
similar to everyone else.
There'll be different needs
and Florence, you've talked about that a bit,
but there's nothing to fear.
The tone coming from the top is also important.
So what you did there with Toby,
so going and sitting with him,
the tone that came from the top,
when I emailed the board and Exco,
(14:57):
there was nothing but support.
And that's really important.
And Wim has talked about this before,
Herve has spoken about it.
So it's really important that everyone else
in the business can see that that leadership
and that openness to working with people
with diverse needs comes right from the top.
That's really important.
It's easy for me as apartner to email Exco and the board.
(15:19):
I know half the people anyway
have been working here for so long.
But I think it's also important for leaders of a business
to show openness to other people contacting them
and saying that, hey, we should do this,
have you thought about that?
Because if you're a leader in a business,
you'll have a certain set of experiences,
but there are so many other people in these organisations
(15:39):
who have very different experience,
different contacts, different ideas,
and you've got to foster a culture
where people will come to you and say,
hey, why don't we try this?
Which we're lucky that this place is pretty open to that.
I can agree more.
And I think as well don't hide people away.
I mean, Florence works on the client floor on the first floor.
(16:00):
Don't hide people.
I mean, I think you were saying earlier on
that you don't see many people with Down Syndrome.
Because if they do have a job,
they tend to be hidden away somewhere,
they should be front side with everybody else.
And planting those small seeds,
as you both said, are so important.
So with you, Florence, you meet our people in the business,
you meet our clients, you meet visitors coming
(16:22):
into the office.
So that natural awareness you're raising
is really powerful, isn't it, for those coming in?
It's not just what I do outside of work.
It was outside of work.
I swim for Great Britain,
but I swim for with,
it's not normal Olympics or Paralympics,
(16:43):
or special Olympics.
But what I do is more like people with Down Syndrome.
I, there's another way to,
people with Down Syndrome can swim.
But what they do is they,
there's another charity called the Down Syndrome
(17:04):
Swimming Great Britain, and they're a part with that as well.
Yeah, it's important for people to see
that you can be in every space,
that everyone else can be within society.
And you can also do really well within those spaces as well.
It's not just that you're taking up space,
you're thriving within the spaces that you're in.
So I was gonna ask you a question,
what does it mean to your family and your friends
(17:25):
that you have this job?
I have the job I do here at the moment.
Yeah, what do they think of it?
That is so happy for me to do all the jobs I do every week.
That is really pleased.
I'll bet.
And I get like, my mum thinks that,
(17:46):
my daughter's got Down Syndrome,
and she's so independent by going into,
like going to a workplace, yeah.
And Florence, if seeing you now doing so well
with your job, independent living,
if there was one thing you could say to your younger self
when you were younger, what would you tell yourself back then
(18:08):
that you wish you could?
I think to be more confident,
but I have a question for you.
Oh, thank you, yes, I'll answer.
That, how did you get interested
with people's Down Syndrome in this podcast?
Really good question.
(18:30):
Actually one of the reasons I decided to become a lawyer
at this firm when I first did my training
was because I met David on campus at a careers fair
and the influence he's given for me,
the reasons that I joined this firm,
seeing him openly speak about his son,
(18:50):
one of the campaigns he mentioned earlier in the podcast
was one I saw him post about,
and it got me interested in what more could I do
in my diversity and inclusion role to advocate for others.
It's been a good learning experience for me
to actually see people far more senior than I am,
advocate for others, share campaigns
that perhaps don't reach the media as much as others.
(19:14):
I really liked the campaign done
for Down Syndrome Awareness Day this year.
Is that next March?
Yes, the next one will be in March,
but the one this year really allowed me to learn a lot
and think what more can I do
to open the conversation and to raise awareness.
So I guess this podcast is another way
(19:34):
in which we can champion diversity
and raise awareness really.
Voices for Change was built, as I said,
as a podcast for inclusive thinkers and doers.
I just wanted to thank all of you
for giving up your time today,
and I hope for those watching or listening,
it's planted some seeds about how they can take this
beyond a podcast and implement some change
(19:55):
within their organization.
Thank you.
Thanks, Justin. Thank you.
Thanks.
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