September 5, 2023 • 52 mins
In this episode, Ben and Pat are joined by special guest Daniele Bolelli (History on Fire, the Drunken Taoist) to discuss his favorite badass of all time -- Japanese Zen Buddhist monk Ikkyu Sojun, an extremely unlikely character more well-known for his wild parties and drunken carousing than his ability to slaughter his foes on the battlefield. Daniele discusses the strange, mystical, and genuinely-hilarious life of one of Japan's most eccentric weirdoes.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Badass of the Week is an iHeartRadio podcast produced by
High five Content. The temple master calls forth his disciple,
a young Buddhist monk enters. He is dressed in ordinary robes,
his hair unkempt, his breath smelling strongly of sake. This
(00:20):
monk is Ichiu so June, an illegitimate son of the emperor.
He was exiled to a monastery, hoping that would keep
him quiet out of the way. It did it. But now,
despite his lifelong debauchery, all of the important noblemen, samurai
and monastery leaders he has famously maligned, mocked, and ridiculed
(00:42):
mercilessly over the years, all of the wine he's drank,
the brothels he's visited, all the lovers he's taken. Despite this,
Ichu's mastery over the intricate and complex philosophies of Zen
Buddhism are undeniable. As a thinker, a scholar, and debater,
he is second to none. Iku's master sulemnly draws.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
A scroll from his robe.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
It is a certificate of Enlightenment, an official document bearing
the seal of the Master of the temple, confirming that
Iku Sujun has attained the rank of Bodhi zatfa an
enlightened one. It's a solemn ceremony that Zen Monastery initiates
dream of when they join the temple in honor, so
difficult to achieve that very few of them will ever
(01:32):
attain it.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Zen Master Ichyosujun nods takes the scroll from his master,
glances at it quickly, and proceeds to set it on fire.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Hello, and welcome back to Badass of the Week. My
name is Ben Thompson and with me as always as
my co host doctor Pat Larish and Pat, we are
doing something kind of different today.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
Yeah, this is something different and exciting.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
It's the first guest we've ever had on Badass of
the Week and we are very excited to have to
have him here. He is the host of History on Fire.
And this is Danielli Blelli. Dan Yelly, did I say
your name correctly? Yeah, it's all good, perfectly, got it right, Okay, great,
and thank you so much for reving it was the
most stressful part of the entire thing.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Of course. Well I make it when it comes to pronounciation,
and I think my policy is easy because I miss
pronounced every word in the English language, so that people
can't tell when I mean he's pronouncing a name because
it's it comes with the brand, it's more or less expected.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I have the problem with every proper name we come across.
I have to make Pat pronounce it for me because
especially like the French names and the Viking ones, like
I can't, I can't tell them. Well, Dalen, thank you
so much. You are the host of History on Fire,
but also like a dozen other you know podcasts as well.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, I've done Uh, I can't stick to one thing ever,
no History on Fire. I've been at it for a while.
It's now eighty years that I'm doing this podcast, and
it's pretty research intensive, so that's one of the main
things I focus my energy on. But yeah, I teach
history in college, I host the Drunken Taoist podcast, I
(03:31):
write books, so I'm always like, too many things are
once spinning plates, constant to understand.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, I get like that with history stuff, where you
know I like to try to jump around, and I
know you do too on your show, where I like
to jump around the different time periods and types of
stories and things, because you know, if I read too
much about one subject, I want to jump to something else.
I kind of get like, Okay, I've gone so far
down this rabbit hole that I just need to find
a new hole to dig myself well.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And the thing is, there's so much out there that
there are so many fantastic stories, there are so many
brilliant characters in history, there's so much good stuff that
I never really understood this desire to specialize in one
thing and one thing only when you know everything that
happened on that street corner in Paris in fifteen twenty seven,
but you don't know anything about the rest of the stuff,
(04:22):
Like what's the point? You know? It's like, you don't
get me wrong. I mean, I understand that to become
good at something you need to put time and energy,
not just skim the surface. But you can become pretty
them good at some topics while also exploring other topics.
So I tend to be on your side. I'm more
of a general list than a specialist when it comes
to history and life in general.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah and so yeah, and so you know, Drunken Taoist
has a little crossover with History on Fire, but not much.
But I think actually today we're going to have an
interesting crossover of both of them, right, Yeah, so we are.
We're going to talk about talking about doing different stories
and finding new you know, new topics and new ideas
(05:05):
and things. And today, you know, we are going to
be talking about something that is a bit of a
departure for Badass and also for History on Fire, which
is that we are going to be talking about a
story that has very few homicides.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yes, highly unusual.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
No.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
I mean it's funny because so many of our stories,
the ones you guys cover, the ones psych over, I
have a blast cover in them. But then I start
thinking about it. It's like and there we go with
another massacre, with another war, with another you know, like
one of the revolving themes seem to be violence and
killing and generally fairly awful. Seeing set, I'm like, you know,
(05:48):
as much as that's definitely a part of history, that
cannot be all that is, And so I tend to
be I make a point sometime to seek out, if
nothing else, for variety's sake, to seek out stories that
are different, that are not just about killing people in
war and being tough. And this story definitely fits the bill.
(06:09):
This is as close as I can get a happy
story on History of fire where surprisingly the lead character
doesn't kill anybody, but it's still an incredible historical person.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Well, it's kind of goes with what you were saying
in the intro to your show on this Guy, and
it's like, you know, these stories of massacres and battles
and you know, less dance and heroic cavalry charges. Those
are awesome and they're great to read about, and I
love watching the films of them and reading about them,
but I don't want to live them, you know. I
(06:42):
never want to be that guy on the horse getting
shot at charge of the light brigade, you.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Know, definitely. And that's I think it's like it comes
there's a point where as much as you want to
tell fan apig story, sometime I think that we shouldn't
equate a fan and they piquate bloody and violent all
the time. And don't get me wrong, I enjoy my
share of blood and violence, but you know, if it's
(07:08):
not just the only thing we covered that would help,
that would end. So it's for me too, I mean
I do the exact same thing you do in that regard.
Is like so many of my stories are all try intense,
and they when by the time you finished listening to them,
you are like, that was insane, that was wild. But
I would like some time listeners to walk away with
(07:31):
a smile, just happy, just feeling good. And so this
tale for today tend to feed the bill. This is
probably one of my favorites all time.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Yeah, and how did you come upon this guy who
we've kind of been defining in negative terms, as in,
we've got the absence of lots and lots of murdering
and killing whatever. But obviously he has things that are
that he does or that he says that are of interest.
So who is this? How did you come upon him? Originally?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
So the way I run into this story is, I
don't know if you're familiar with the writer Tom Robbins,
the guy who wrote even Cowgary's Got the Blues Still Life,
which wore back all sort of really fun fiction the way,
And you know, I've always loved Tom Robbins as a writer.
I got to meet him, and he was a fantastic
human being. And at the same time, I've always been
(08:27):
always interested in that is means zam, Buddhism and things
like that. So one time I'm reading a Tom Robbins book,
I think It was an interview with him and they
asked him about, you know, if he had a time
machine or where he would want to be, and he
mentioned early fourteen hundreds, Kyouto hanging out with this guy IQ,
(08:47):
his favorite zet Master And I was like, come on,
said Master, that I don't know about that Tom Robbins love.
I got to find out more about this guy, and
you know, there's some stuff in the English language about him,
not a tone. I had to use my university library
privileges to dig up books that are no longer in
print since a long time. And the more I read,
(09:10):
the more I was just dying laughing because this guy's
is uh, it's so wild, so funny, so you river
and anti authority, hilarious, and you know, he had everything
going from for a character that I would dig as
a centerpiece for a story I like to tell. And
(09:31):
there was enough to sub to, you know, back up
the story of his life. There was enough evidence to argue, okay,
this is not just a two second thing where there's
there's more than enough evidence. I was like, okay, I'm
diving in. And the more I do, the more I
like the story. So it's think of it is if
there was an X rated version of Bugs Bandy was
(09:53):
a sand Master, that would be the story we play
with today because he's like this trickster figure.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
A mental image I'm getting.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, I don't know if that's good or bad.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Yeah, I mean, you kind of surprised me with this one,
because you know, I mean, and that's the great thing, right,
Stories come from all over the place. Inspiration for this
stuff comes from everywhere. You'll be reading. For me, I'll
be reading about one character and for one story and
working on and somebody else will pop up and be like,
whoa who is this guy? Wait? I never heard of
this before, and I was I was on I was
(10:28):
on your show. We recorded that last week. I don't
know when the when these will air compared to each other,
but you're like, oh, yeah, yeah it Sujun. And I
was like, he's like he's a zad master and he
was like total party animal. He'd be, you know, one
of the people you'd invite to dinner if you had
like your historical dinner party, you.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Know, dilemma.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
And I was like, oh my god, I don't know
anything about this guy. So I've been kind of frantically
trying to educate myself for the last week so I
could sound smart when we have this conversation.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Well, the good thing is that hardly anybody knows about
this guy a space in Japan they do, but of course,
you know, there's a little more popularity for the guy
in US, not so much. It's really not just US,
but like all English speaking countries, there's there's some material,
but not a lot. So I had a blast just
digging up pretty much everything there is about him in English,
(11:17):
putting it together as a as a storyline. And you know,
sometimes you do see a story that looks amazing when
you read the short article on it and you dig
deeper and there's nothing, or the story is not quite
as cool.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Or the guy is just like a huge prick and
you're like, actually, I hate this guy.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
The more I learned about theim, the more I realize
this guy's a monster.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, you got really bummed out. Whereas with this instead,
the more I dug into it, the happier I got.
I was like, oh, this is better than anything I
could have scripted here.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Oh this is great. Yeah, and we've got some of
his own writings. Some of his poems are translated into
English and they've got attitude.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Oh yeah, yeah, that's what's funny about him. He's the
poster boy for going against dogma, going against out archy,
going against the established order of things. And yet you know,
like many people do, like you take, like a Greek
philosopher like Diogenis, he did similar stuff. He also suffered
(12:19):
from the punk rock syndrome. You know, he's great when
he's talking crap about everyone else, but when you look
at what he does, there's not a whole lot that
he creates in alternative that you say, oh, this is amazing.
He's just an hilarious prankster. But we take you. You
get his criticism of established authority, that's brilliant, but then
you look at what he does in his life and
(12:39):
you're like, oh, that's even better. So it's there's two
sides of the coin. You know, there's both the distraction
of established order and the creation of something better.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, well I guess we should we
should get into it. This is going to be Echio
so June, and we are going to get into the
story right after this break. Okay, welcome back. We are
(13:09):
here with Danielle from history on fire and Danielle, you
are going to tell us about equ Suzu.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yes, my favorite historical character out of the hundreds that
I've studied, cover and everything, this is probably my favorite tale.
His life is so odd that it looks like fiction.
You know, he was born in thirteen ninety four, and
they're rather complicated circumstances. His father was the Emperor of Japan.
(13:40):
Now granted, the emperor in the thirteen hundreds or fourteen
hundreds doesn't really mean much because they were essentially a
figurehead with minimal political power. You know, the showguns would
just keep them around, put them on the head, say
give me your blessing and go back to partying and
leave us alone.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So the emperor, it sounds superpower or folly, wasn't. But
it was still an important figurehead, you know. Nonetheless, man
was he was he a deity?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Was he god? Is he considered godlike? Or yeah?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
I mean depend in popular rhetoric, yes, people would give
him credit, but the reality is that, you know, the
warlords did whatever they wanted and they just ask for
his blessings, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So it's more like the more like a weaker Roman
emperor where they they wanted to call them god, but
they don't actually have any god power exactly.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
Ideally, you don't call him god during their lifetime except
for certain emperors, you know. But yeah, so anyway, so
his dad is the emperor, which okay, a figurehead, but
still an important figurehead and not some random obscure farmer
in the countryside or something.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah. This, awever, does not play well for EQ because
his mom was just a lady at court, wasn't the
wife of the emperor. And she actually did just made
the peace. There had been a civil war between the
northern side and the Southern side, and she was from
the southern side. The emperor had been tied to the
(15:08):
northern side. They just made the peace. But the notion
of having a possible next in line to the throne
who was tied to the southern side did not go
well with a lot of people at court, and so
there was a big push to get the if not
the kid outright killed, at least get him neutralized out
of the way. So his mom was casted out of
(15:31):
the court. She gave birth to weekq Week. You didn't
even get to spend that much time with her because
possibly because she was either too poor to take care
of him by the point, or possibly because she was
afraid that they would kill him as a possible next
in line to the throne. She put him in a
Zigen monastery when it was only five years old, basically
(15:51):
giving everybody the message, look, leave this kid alone. He's
just going to be a monk. He's not going to
have anything to do with your politics. He's not recognized,
is the just lett him be?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
And you see some of that in the in Europe
as well, where kings you know he's a potential threat
to the throne, they'll they'll make him take holy orders,
he'll become a monk or a priest or something, because
then he's he's not a threat to inherit the crown
or the throne or anything.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
So yeah, so I have a question in Japan at
this time, if you give your kid to a zen monastery,
is the idea that it's kind of similar to the
European situation where the kid might very well get raised
and the expectation is that the kid will then take
holy orders or is it just like education for a
few years and then they get a new.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Career or it could go either way, but it seems
that more often than not it does go into these
guys become monks. You know, it can be that he's
a temporary thing, but more often than not, it's it's
ver real deal. This is what these guys will do, which,
of course fordiq it was not a choice. You know,
(16:59):
he ever decided I want to study zam Buddhism, I
want to become a monk. I want to be part
of this. It definitely beats the alternative, which was getting
his head chopped off in a political conspiracy. So in
that light, ze Buddhism didn't seem so much after World Yeah, exactly.
So it's like, okay, I guess monastery as severe an
(17:19):
environment as it would be, still better than the alternative.
There's one thing that we should probably say about zam Buddhism.
You know, if in the West, in particular, zam Buddhism
as this reputation for this very almost anarchistic tradition within Buddhism,
very you know, you read guys like Alan Watts who
have popularized zam Buddhism in the West a lot, and
(17:42):
you get this impression of this very loose and free
type of philosophy.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah, when I hear like being Zen. I picture like
a guy on a surfboard.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yeah right. It has this happy pe vibe to it all.
That is how it's popularized.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
People use it to mean also sorts of things. Yeah, like, oh,
I spilled coffee on my shirt. I was so then
about it?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right exactly. The reality is a bit
different in the sense that historically, I mean, the part
that's not different is historically Zen is the result of
the union between Buddhism going into China and meeting Daoism,
and the meeting of those two created was called Chan
(18:24):
Buddhism in China, and that became zim Buddhism in Japan.
So it's as a very Taoist overtones in its philosophy.
But the reality is that living in the monasteries was
anything but the free flowing, you know, very rigid discipline,
very strict meditation, schedule, work card, don't get to sleep match.
You know. It's not this surfer guy talking philosophy while
(18:49):
smoking weed on the beach is not that at all.
Considerably rougher environment and DQ during his early years he
struggles with it because he's clearly on one end. He's
clearly brilliant, like all of his teachers remark on how
smart the guys, and now even his grasp of Zen
(19:09):
seems to be amazing and unparalleled on the other end,
precisely because he actually likes Zen. He hates what the
en establishment has become, and he regularly clashes with it
on a regular basis, to the point of like, the
most famous of these early classes is that one thing
that existed in Zen was this idea of the Certificate
(19:32):
of Enlightenment. It's like the equivalent of your spiritual PhD,
where you know, a master has to recognize they are
enlightened so that then you are a master and can
start your own monastery and stuff.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
Like that, and you have a piece of paper to prove.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
It, yes, exactly. And he when they gave it to
it was like, certificate of Enlightenment are your kids? So
he burned it, which was like, you know, this guy
spent their lives trying to get and it's given to me,
and he's like, keep me up, break, what is this.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
It's interesting though, because it's a thing that you know,
you know, because we have this mentality of Zen being
surf for dude smoking weed. You know, you don't think
of zen Buddhism having some of the same problems that
we see in Catholicism and some of the Western religions
and just kind of organized religion in general, where it's like, yeah,
(20:26):
they're saying, like, you know, Jesus said be cool to
everybody and help poor people, and like be you know,
nice to your neighbors, and we've turned that in somehow
to like let's chop everybody's heads off who disagrees with us,
you know, And then where we run into these like
once you kind of have these powerful church social structures
where you know, you're learning all of this stuff, but
(20:48):
the thing that you're practicing is the opposite of what
you're learning. That's kind of a disconnect there, And you
don't think of zen Buddhism having that as well. But
I imagine any any like hierarchy setup where people are
going to have power other people kind of invites that
a little bit.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
You're going to have politics, you're going to have bureaucracy,
you're going to have arbitrary stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
So yeah, so if you burned his certificate and what
did he do?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Then so they are, but they don't want to give
up on him. They keep trying to kind of really
mean despite his weird eccentric behavior and the fact that
it's so bizarre, I mean, speaking of giving up stuff,
you know, he gives up the Certificate of Enlightenment. On
the other end, at some point is his father decide
to see him, and sort of analogism and all of that.
(21:38):
They have very union, and in the meantime, eq saff brother,
the other son of the emperor, had died, so in
a way there was you know, realistically how desperate that
his father was to where somebody was next in line.
It's not a stretch to argue that if Heq had
push for it, he could have probably gotten recognized and
become the next emperor of Japan. But the reality is
(22:01):
that Iki was as uninterested in becoming the emperor as
he was in becoming the top priest in some temple.
He just didn't give a crap. It seemed like all
very artificial, like whether it's a spiritual bureaucracy or playing
figurehead for some powerful warlord. He was like, yeah, I
(22:22):
don't really want to have any part on any of these. So,
if anything, he suggested to his dad, why don't you
pick this so and so relative, he seemed like it
would be a good fit for the job, and didn't
want to do that either. So again he leaves you
with what does this guy?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Meanwhile like people and people around him were literally murdering
each other for this, for this possibility or the chance
of being able to do that sover sisely.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
So it's it's pretty funny. There's one thing that happens
at one point that's one of my favorite tq anadts
of all is that, in an effort to really mean
they they give him a post overseeing this one smaller monastery,
saying no, maybe by giving him a responsibility will get
him back into the fold, and he eventually gets a
(23:10):
little older, he'll mellow out, and a few days go
by and nobody can find him anymore, and so they
are looking for him. It's like he's the head of
her monastery. Where did he go? He was a writer
all his life, he always wrote a ton of poems
and stuff, And they find this poem that he left
behind in his quarters that basically said, look, guys, let's
(23:33):
be real. Nine days in this monastery and I'm losing
my mind. So if anybody come looking for me, I'm
either at the saki shop or I'm at the bral
see you guys, And they're like, wait what you know?
Speaker 1 (23:49):
But he wrote it as a poem. He didn't just
leave like a note on his door. He wrote it
in poem for yeah, beautiful literature. Original did he calligraphy
at himself?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
He does all this very fancy, beautiful stuff, and so
you are left with this feeling of like wait what.
And the funny thing is that for the rest of
his life, those three elements, because it does like Zen
so zend Buddhism, women and alcohol are his three main
passions in no particular order. By the way, they tend
(24:21):
to be very much intermixed throughout his life. And besides
the obviously hilarious aspect of it all of like, oh,
this sounds like a fun guy to party with. The
thing that's funny about him is that there was actually
a point even related to Zen Buddhism, in the sense
that one of the things that is constantly going against
is the pretense of spirituality, this idea that spirituality is
(24:46):
something separate from daily life, whereas equ is almost making
a point by embracing and openly embracing because you know,
a bunch of Zen, Buddhist monks reach a certain doctrine
and then they would go out drinking and go to
prostitute or something that was hypocritical because they are saying
one thing and doing another. It is completely at front.
(25:07):
It's like what you see is what you get. Is
not hiding, it is not trying to and this approach
is trying to say, look, there is no spirituality like
in some clouds of incense uper Mountain. Spirituality is day
to day life, live with full awareness, which is ultimately
what Zen is is about this presence of being in
the midst of everything. And so he's not only not
(25:32):
hiding but flaunting all kinds of behaviors that's more morals
and Buddhist should condemn and see as antithetical to a
spiritual path. To him, they are very much part of
his spiritual path.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah, and that's something that I love. Right. So, you know,
we've got this kid, this illegitimate son of the emperor,
who turns out might actually have had like a solid
claim on the throne and could have ascended if he
had shown any interest in it. But instead he you know,
as a child, he goes off to this Buddhist monastery
where he's raised, and he learns Zen Buddhism, and he
(26:08):
learns it to a degree where he realizes nobody here
is practicing what they're teaching, and this is all They're
all more kind of obsessed with the hierarchy and playing
politics and wearing fancy clothes and having people give them
certificates of enlightenment that they can frame for their offices.
And this guy's like, well, this is all bullshit, right,
this is you guys are saying one thing, and you're
(26:30):
trying to teach me one thing. But then the thing,
like what you were saying earlier about how Ichio could
create new stuff as well. One thing that's really awesome
about him is that he can. He just does whatever
he wants. He goes to the brothels, any drinks, any parties,
and he wears you know, he wears regular clothes to
fancy things just to make people treat him nice because
(26:52):
he is still actually like a high level Zen monk.
And then when people call him out on it and
are like, dude, what are you doing, he can like
beat them in a philosophy argument on their own religion,
like actually, I'm doing reals in Buddhism you guys are
doing whatever. Like now, grab a surfboard and a and
some weed and like let's just hang out and be cool.
This is what it's all about. But the fact that
(27:15):
he's able to kind of beat them at their own
philosophy is just it's an added layer of that.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
I just love about him. Yeah, that's what's funny about
the guy. That is in many way because he's the
real thing when it comes to them, he inevitably clashes
with the establishment. Like one thing he hates about the
Zign establishment, well, many things he hates about. One of
them is how cough up to they are, because they said,
you know, half of the time, you guys are just
panded into some merchant each money giving him certificates of
(27:43):
oh you are a great Buddhist this and that, where
you are really selling out the religion for the sake
of making money. And so again he's like, these guys
will represent the image of what Zien is supposed to be,
and they have their shaved head and they are in
their robes and leaving the monastery and at least officially
pretend to live by certain rules, then they are, in
(28:05):
his opinion, they are just selling out with Zennis and
they don't really have it, whereas real Zen is fround
the outside of the monastery for him, and it's it's
like there's a line that's.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Creating a hierarchy for it is like, you know, the
opposite of exactly Buddha was trying to accomplish or was
trying to teach in the first place.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
And Nick likes to wink at this guy, you know,
he likes to poke them and write things that. Of course,
there are multiple layers to it. He's saying it intentionally provocative,
Like there's a line of his that say, don't hesitate,
get laid. That's deep wisdom. Sitting around chanting sutras, that's crap,
and they say that send mogs who spent their lives.
(28:48):
It's just hilarious. You know.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
He reminds me, and I think you talk about it
a little in your podcast as well, But the patron
saint of Bhutan is like that triplequently, he had the
same similar kind of deal. I think he wrote somebody
he was also like a drinker and a partier, and
he like getting laid and having drinks and partying and
all this stuff. And some higher level Buddhist monk complained
(29:12):
to him and was like, how did they let you
out of Hell? And he was like, oh, I was
actually on my way there, but the path was so
clogged with corrupt priests that I couldn't get through. I
had to come back.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I know, is another one exactly like that? Like I
find he's just as good. He has very similar stories.
The sources are a little thing. They're on his life,
but you know, it's just that he's very much reminds
me of Think You big Time. There's a line speaking
of Hell that I was just looking through by notes
and I ran into that. He goes with a young beauty.
(29:46):
I mean, gross, the infervent love play. We sit here
in the pavilion, a pleasure girl and this sand monk,
and rapture by hugs and kisses. I certainly don't feel
as if I'm burning in hell. You know, he would
arrive these six and said about the monks just to
poke them, just to get under their skin.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
And speaking of sources, because I'm curious, we've got his poetry,
what other sources do we have on him?
Speaker 2 (30:15):
There's some of his disciples wrote biographies office and these
were people who were with him, who knew him, so
they were kind of like a first stand account of
people when they live with him, were around him. There
are two or three of those biographies, so you can
kind of fact check them with each other, and you know,
of course the things that they all report are more
(30:37):
likely the true ones, and so on and so forward.
There are few references to him in like more officials
and record the keeping of the temples and so on.
He dies, I think it is late eighties or something.
And you know, in part of the time that he
lived in there was the beginning of the Sengoku period
(30:58):
in Japanese, when the brutal civil war that will last
for over a cent to re begin or during his lifetime,
and so during the early wars, the match of Kyoto
is born to the ground. This main Zend temple where
he had trained had been part of is also destroyed,
and they have nobody left to rebuild. They don't know
(31:20):
what to do, and so they turned to wik You.
Because of his connection in the wider world of Japan,
his love by so many people. He has hook ups
with anything from pirates to merchants to everybody. So they
lend him all this massive amount of food and essentially
rebuild the very temple he has spent his life criticizing,
(31:41):
you know, he made his life criticizing the Senate establishment
and then oddly an effort of the vigor you love
that one of the biggest temples in Kyoto get to
be rebuilt thanks to him. So there's this beautiful parable
there that's absolutely larious.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
So that's an interesting thing that we should talk about
because because Iko is is he's an agent of chaos, right,
He's going against everything that the temple is saying that
he should be doing, and he's acting acting out, and
he's being you know, in some of the stories, he's
being disrespectful to aristocrats and to the leadership of the
Zen temples and things, and he's he's pissing off everybody
(32:17):
in Japan. But rather than that, coming back to and
people just love him like people, he's just kind of
like he becomes a celebrity in his lifetime.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
I think there's something about a society that was so
gitally structured seeing somebody who seemed so completely free, so
unencumbered by all the things that normal people struggle lunder,
and normal people want to climb ahead in the hierarchy.
If you're a monk, become the more powerful monk. He
(32:47):
doesn't give a crap, so you can, oh, maybe with
political power, you can tempt him. He doesn't give a crap.
He just doesn't care about the payoff that normal people
chase around for their whole lives.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
You know, there's a joke I heard once about a
guy and he goes to Mexico and he's hanging out
on the beach in Mexico and there's a fisherman there.
The Mexican fisherman is like, yeah, this is the life,
you know. I catch fish and then I drink some
wine and I go home to my wife. And the
American is like, oh, well, you could get a couple
more boats, and if you sold your fish here, then
you could build a bigger empire, and then you could
(33:20):
really kind of take over all of the fishing in
this area and make a bunch of money. And the
fisherman is like, why would I do that? And then
the Americans like, oh, because then you could, you know,
invest some of that money, and then you could retire,
and then you could you could just spend all day
fishing and drinking wine and hang out with your wife.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Exactly that's funny too that where it's set, you know,
that's very much where we que it's set. And in
the process of doing that, he definitely makes some enemies
in the Zen establishment. He also gets a lot of
people who adore him, not only at a popular level,
like on the streets, so to speak. People love him,
but I love I think like one of the things
(34:00):
I love about Tiki is the fact that he so
many people that you have seen and you have heard
of who are more accepting of sexuality or embracing it
within spiritual circles, or they are a little more reverence
or breaking the rules or doing stuff like that. You
often as you dig deeper, you find out that they
(34:22):
do it in very self serving ways where they are
screwing over everyone else to go one. So bending the
rules really meant I want to bend the rules because
I want to get what I want. That's not at
all what you get to Iq whose people just love him.
You never hear a story of him taking advantage of
anybody or using the freedom of his to be the
(34:44):
guy who gets what he wants and screws over someone else.
So there's there's a certain level of a deep morality
but it doesn't preach it. It's not there saying we
need to be good. He's just a nice person who's
just very free in his life.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah. Yeah, he says, like, you know, wouldn't we all
just wouldn't the world be better if we all just
like got drunken had sex? Right, Yeah, look at this,
I'm just gonna do my thing, and like, actually, you'd
all be happier if you just did this instead of
try to stab each other in the back over political
positions that nobody cares about.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Yeah, and pieces of paper certifying that you have attained
enlightness exactly.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
And there is a funny twist to the story. So
one of the things that happens is that in addition
to him having a glorious time throughout his life, he
has an enormous impact on Japanese cultural life for the
next several centuries because he gathers you know, he doesn't
have a formal school, he doesn't have a temple. He
(35:44):
just roams around the rights breaches to everyone to listen
to him and stuff. But he gathers around him a
whole collection of artist, musicians, actors, all sort of merchants.
Even people had nothing to do with cultural life. But
like there's this very odd mix of people who start
(36:06):
following him any time, any chance they get, visiting, any
chance they get. So he has this mini court of
people hanging around him, and most of them become incredibly
influential people in Japanese cultural history, from a guy who
revolutionized the way theater was done in Japan to calligraphy
(36:26):
master to the guy who's going to become the main
tea ceremony guy in Japan for the next generation too.
So his ideas, while he's not trying to do that person,
they will end up having this tremendous impact that is
felt through the ages afterwards because of all the people
he influences in a direct kind of way. Because this
(36:50):
could quote disciples, even though there's nothing formal about it.
Are these human beings who they themselves will have a
big impact.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
He just had awesome parties, and then all of the
celebrities in Japan, all of the artists and everybody. It's
like Danie Warhol or something, right, all these people just
wanted to be near him and be part of the party,
and you know, cultural movements got started and yeah, and
so he just kind of had this revolution in Japan
and at a time where people really needed it, because
(37:19):
you did say, like, this is the Warring States period, right,
so there's a lot of there's the death and destruction
and murder in Mayhem is not central to this story,
but it is happening in very close proximity to this story.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Yeah. And there's a famine at some point too, right.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, yeah, there was, because I mean this is the
period in this is where all it's the beginning of
the war in States period. So it's the beginning. There's famine,
there's civil war, there's you know, the external context, this
brutal He's not just there having a parody that is
a disease. He's like sometime, you know, he has to
flee where he lives in Kyoto. The place where he
(37:57):
used to leave gets burned down. It's like, all these
crazy things happen, but he somehow managed to arise above it.
And that there's also another twist in his tale that
when in his seventies he falls after a life definitely
dedicated to her. Women in the plural were very much
something that he enjoyed deeply. When in his seventies he
(38:20):
fools Meddle in love with this blind singer. This woman.
We don't know exactly how well she was. She's definitely
a lot younger than him, but we don't know exactly
how much. And you know, initially, because there's such a
huge age gap, he doesn't think anything of it. You know,
he's they hang out together, they are friends, but there's
nothing to it until eventually something sparks between them and
(38:42):
then their romance become one of the most celebrated love
stories in Japanese history. And he's actually you know, when
they paint his portrait, which is kind of a big deal,
you know, zen Masters of them, they had their portrait painted,
which is how they will be known for the few
you know, there are no photographs, right, official portrait is
pretty much the only way you're going to be known
(39:02):
from there forward. He actually has Horror posing Wittim for
the portrait, which is a huge no no. You know,
there is no zen Master who's with a woman in
his official portrait and he's super in love with her,
and they take the portrait together where she shows up
Wittym and stuff, and so it's there's this a layer
(39:23):
of this very late life romance that become super celebrated
in Japanese culture, which you know, if he wasn't cool
enough already, he just adds another level to it. All.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, And so he is a big
slip because I think I had never heard of him
before you mentioned him, and you you had been exposed
to him kind of later on in your career. And
I don't know, Pat, if you've if you'd heard of
him before this.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
But honestly, I had not heard of him before daniel
A suggested, Hey, let's talk about him for the episode.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
So yeah, honestly, like I couldn't even remember the name
of the I couldn't remember the name of the person.
And so you had said like, oh, we're going to
talk about this this monk who was crazy. And so,
for whatever reason, because I had been listening to your
ben Venudo Ucillini episode at the time, I went to
Pat and I was like, Oh, we're going to do
a monk. He's like a a hard drinking, like hard partying.
(40:18):
You think it, I want to say, like like it
Renaissance Italy.
Speaker 4 (40:22):
Yeah, And I started immediately Italian name. Well, I wouldn't no, no, no,
not actually, but I was trying to think, like who
might be at least somewhat overlapping with the description, and
not all of them were crazy sex fiends. One of
them was Athanasius Kirker, who was cool and nerdy in
(40:44):
his own right, but to my knowledge, was not known
as being a sex fiend. And also sex fiend is
I feel like sex fiend is a little bit demrogatory.
I feel like this guy just just he loves pleasure.
He loves sharing pleasure and being in the moment.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
And you know, so I think being implies criminality too.
That's probably the total wrong word to use.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
But well find or that you're not in control of it,
and he's seems to me that he's managing anyway. But
to your point, then this guy IQ is not well
known in America, and so Ben, you and I had
to do a little bit of work to get to know.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
And I think that's what's interesting sometimes that you know
so many of When we open any history book, every
other story is the Bordas and Alexander the Great and
the Caesar, and you know, it's always political figures, usually
involved in major wars and scheming and murders, and that's
(41:43):
you know, so much of what we what passes as
history is the history of gangsters on a large scale.
You know, it's like, it's nice to be reminded that
there are fun human beings, engaging human beings, enjoyable human
beings who can be a remember for or something gather
than killing a whole bunch of people or scheme in
(42:03):
to get power. You know, it's a healthier reminder that
this stuff is there. He just not watch. So many
of our history.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Books have focused on well, that's something that like we
talked about on your show, and that we that you
talked about in kind of the introduction to your series
on IQ, which is that, at least in the US, weirdly,
like I do these books for school kids, and I
get censored on kissing stuff all the time. My editors like,
(42:33):
I don't think we can put that in there. But
the violence, that's fine. Nobody cares, right, you know. And
it's kind of interesting how we have this total complacency
with extreme violence and gore, but anything sexual immediately starts
sending off alarm bells everywhere. It's interesting because this guy Ikyo,
he you know, he was the kind of more like
(42:56):
what we should all be trying to be, like, right,
we should be trying to be more like IQ and
less like to go.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah. I mean when you look at exactly the people
were famous in that period of Japanese history, they are
mostly monsters, you know, or Tokuga or Hideyoshi. You know,
these guys are serious, brutal gangsters who do horrible seeings,
even to their own families in their quest to gain power.
Here have IQ doesn't hurt a fly. It's having a blast,
(43:24):
makes everybody around the happy. Other that overstuffed and guys
and uh, and there's a huge positive impact on a
ton of people life. And in the process he enjoys
his life. It's no martyr suffering. He just managed to
find a good way to live life.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Did his like counterculture stuff ever come back to him?
I remember, you know, I remember Voltaire once wrote he
was famously lampooning all of the aristocracy of France and stuff.
But he once wrote that he he had bought a
house that was really close to the border of Italy,
so that if the French army ever did come for him,
(44:02):
he could run out his back door and be in Italy.
Did anything ever like like that ever happened with the
Hu No run ins with the famous people that he
wronged and they felt the need to draw samurai sword
on him or something.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
No, he got coat in the middle of the Civil War,
so at some point he had to flee the city,
and where he was staying got all borned down and
you lost so much stuff, but not in a personal way,
like nobody was coming after him personally, And I think
that's what's funny that even people he clashed with, somehow
they couldn't helped to like him anyway. You know, there
(44:38):
was an element of like, why do you have to
be such a pain in the ass bat he are
really fat there, there's something he'd bet about you, you know.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
Yeah, because when somebody acts out like that, you know,
and just just like, I'm just gonna be me. I'm
not going to do this thing that you want me
to do. I'm going to do my own thing. There's
always that kind of like, oh, you're going to get
in trouble, but he never did, which is just amazing.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Well yeah, yeah, and that's where I'm actually going to
read you something I found it in my notes. This
is how I close my series on him, because it's
underscore another point that to me is important in his
story because as much as a year. I love all
these jokes, and I love his while drinking and sex stories.
(45:19):
And by the way, I should mention one more of
those before I go into the point I was trying
to beg when he's really old and it's close to death.
One point, he has a discussion with some of his
disciples and he says, I know that after I die,
some of you are just going to spend your time
partying with women, and some of you are going to
turn to the mountains to meditate alone. And he said,
(45:42):
both types of zen are fine with me. Those are
good paths, both of those. However, if you become a
professional cleric and start babbling about zen as the way,
then you are by enemy again. I thought it was
hilarious because to hear it is like meditation in the
mountains and actual carogs. It's all those are two good
(46:02):
said paths. They both are. And so I had to
throw that in because it's another beautiful little and I
talked about him. But like the thing that also I
really cherish about his story is his complete unwillingness to
maybe there's a bad you know what, I'm just going
to read you this part because he really captured this
(46:24):
point about him trying to find happiness, real happiness in
the midst of a really heavy context. Because it's not heavy,
everything easier handed to him. So I'll read you this
quick part. It said, Sickness, heart to break, the inevitable
decline of old, age, failure, and death stalk every one
of us. We live in a universe in which everything
(46:47):
we love gets to be taken away from us sooner
or later. Our very existential conditions dictate that every single
human will deal with heavy suffering. Ikey was no stranger
to life's harsh side. Was disowned by his father before
he was even born, was separated from his mother by
the time he was five, lived through periods of famine, floods,
(47:09):
and civil war, and so ninety percent of his hometown
burned to the ground, plus thousands of people dying all
around him. And yet, in what is possibly my favorite
line ever written, he wrote, throw into hell and I'll
find a way to enjoy it. He is not promoting,
(47:29):
you know, some kind of delusional form of positive thinking.
He's not willfully blind about how brutal life can be.
He knows the hell, whether psychological or the hell of
horrible material conditions, is never far away and can knock
on the door at any minute. So in that sense,
almost Hell is inescapable. There's no denying it. And yet
(47:52):
what he's doing is denying the Hell can have power
over his consciousness as much as he can possibly manage.
Know he they said of him, they say joy in
the midst of suffering is the mark of equ school
because he shows this playfulness as a way to keep
finding beauty is an art, you know, and I bow
(48:15):
to anyone who can master it. And you know, because
to me, that's what the real spiritual depth is about,
is that ability to find the joy when life doesn't
really give you that much, the many reasons for it.
And in that regard, I can't think of anybody better
than Iqi to teach this because his whole life was
about this stuff. And so that's why, in addition to
(48:35):
the obvious hilarious element of it all and how much
it makes me laugh and how funny is I also
find an inspirational on that level.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Yeah, and what a great what a great message too,
right of you know, life is hard, but you know
it is what you make of it, and you can
try to find the positive and have a good time
with it, you know, and it's kind of goes to
the point we were saying earlier where we don't have
to read that in high school, which is when you
really need it. We're reading Machiavellian's just the opposite of
(49:04):
what we need as a society and as individual. Well, Danielle,
thank you so much for for doing this. I know that,
like you know, for you're taking your time out to
come here and tell the story for us, and it's fun.
We really appreciate it. Do we have any kind of
final thoughts on on Ikyo before we before we wrap
(49:27):
this up?
Speaker 2 (49:29):
I don't know. I think throw them into hell and
I'll find a way to enjoy it. This is as
good as a one line or I can ever think of.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
You know, that's I don't even.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Know how we read It's great. Yeah, I'm gotta try.
I'm trying to make that my life's flaws in the
face of because you know, the reality is, we all
run into terrible things happening in our life. There's no
avoiding it. We all will deal with we have dealt with,
we will deal with it. But having that attitude as
much as humanly possible definitely helps.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Yeah, it could always be worse, right, it can always
be can always be better, and it can always be worse. Daily.
Thank you so much for being on the show.
Speaker 4 (50:04):
And we can find your podcasts on History on Fire.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Yeah. So about EQ, I did two episodes. There are
two hours long each, so I dive real deep into
that story. But then, you know, like what I do
every month is speak a story, do as much of
a deep dive as I can into telling either the
life of somebody or one event or something that I find.
You know, in that regard, I very much. You guys
(50:31):
have the same taste as I do. I like these
larger than life tales that make you go, did that
really happen? No way somebody? That's the fun of it all,
you know. So that's what I try to do as well,
in in just narrative form and just the research a
bunch and I got to tell the story.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Yeah, so History on Fire is the podcast. I definitely
recommend that everybody go check out all of it, but
especially the the what we were just talking about, because
you do get you do deep dive into some really
good stories that uh that you know, we don't have,
we won't have the time to get to here. But
they're amazing and you did a great job with the
research and organization and everything. And I'm on the I'm
(51:12):
on there as well, so if you guys want to
come and check out the episode that I did with
with Danielle, it's available there as well.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
So that was fun. That was a lot. Yeah, we
had a blast. That one is actually gonna be I've
gotta put it in two places. I'm gonna put that
on the other podcast that I have, the Drunken Taoist,
and then I'm also gonna put it on the Patreon
for Patreon listeners who are hardcore History on Fire listeners
will also get it that way.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Is there anywhere else we can find you? It's History
on Fire and Drunken Towist.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
Yeah, that's yeah. Cool ones.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
All right, Well, thank you so much for being on here.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Thank you so much for having me. It was a blast.
Speaker 4 (51:48):
Thank you, Thank you, daniel Stay. Badass Badass of the
Week is an iHeartRadio podcast produced by five Content. Executive
producers are Andrew Jacobs, Me, Pat Larish, and my co
host Ben Thompson. Writing is by me and Ben. Story
(52:10):
editing is by Ian Jacobs, Brandon Phibbs Mixing and music
and sound design is by Jude Brewer. Special thanks to
Noel Brown at iHeart Badass of the Week is based
on the website Badass oftheweek dot com, where you can
read all sorts of stories about other badasses. If you
want to reach out with questions ideas, you can email
(52:33):
us at Badass podcast at badassotheweek dot com. If you
like the podcast, subscribe, follow, listen, and tell your friends
and your enemies if you want as. We'll be back
next week with another one. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts.
Badass of the Week is an iHeartRadio podcast produced by
High five Content. The temple master calls forth his disciple,
a young Buddhist monk enters. He is dressed in ordinary robes,
his hair unkempt, his breath smelling strongly of sake. This
(00:20):
monk is Ichiu so June, an illegitimate son of the emperor.
He was exiled to a monastery, hoping that would keep
him quiet out of the way. It did it. But now,
despite his lifelong debauchery, all of the important noblemen, samurai
and monastery leaders he has famously maligned, mocked, and ridiculed
(00:42):
mercilessly over the years, all of the wine he's drank,
the brothels he's visited, all the lovers he's taken. Despite this,
Ichu's mastery over the intricate and complex philosophies of Zen
Buddhism are undeniable. As a thinker, a scholar, and debater,
he is second to none. Iku's master sulemnly draws.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
A scroll from his robe.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
It is a certificate of Enlightenment, an official document bearing
the seal of the Master of the temple, confirming that
Iku Sujun has attained the rank of Bodhi zatfa an
enlightened one. It's a solemn ceremony that Zen Monastery initiates
dream of when they join the temple in honor, so
difficult to achieve that very few of them will ever
(01:32):
attain it.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Zen Master Ichyosujun nods takes the scroll from his master,
glances at it quickly, and proceeds to set it on fire.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Hello, and welcome back to Badass of the Week. My
name is Ben Thompson and with me as always as
my co host doctor Pat Larish and Pat, we are
doing something kind of different today.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
Yeah, this is something different and exciting.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
It's the first guest we've ever had on Badass of
the Week and we are very excited to have to
have him here. He is the host of History on Fire.
And this is Danielli Blelli. Dan Yelly, did I say
your name correctly? Yeah, it's all good, perfectly, got it right, Okay, great,
and thank you so much for reving it was the
most stressful part of the entire thing.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Of course. Well I make it when it comes to pronounciation,
and I think my policy is easy because I miss
pronounced every word in the English language, so that people
can't tell when I mean he's pronouncing a name because
it's it comes with the brand, it's more or less expected.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I have the problem with every proper name we come across.
I have to make Pat pronounce it for me because
especially like the French names and the Viking ones, like
I can't, I can't tell them. Well, Dalen, thank you
so much. You are the host of History on Fire,
but also like a dozen other you know podcasts as well.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, I've done Uh, I can't stick to one thing ever,
no History on Fire. I've been at it for a while.
It's now eighty years that I'm doing this podcast, and
it's pretty research intensive, so that's one of the main
things I focus my energy on. But yeah, I teach
history in college, I host the Drunken Taoist podcast, I
(03:31):
write books, so I'm always like, too many things are
once spinning plates, constant to understand.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, I get like that with history stuff, where you
know I like to try to jump around, and I
know you do too on your show, where I like
to jump around the different time periods and types of
stories and things, because you know, if I read too
much about one subject, I want to jump to something else.
I kind of get like, Okay, I've gone so far
down this rabbit hole that I just need to find
a new hole to dig myself well.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And the thing is, there's so much out there that
there are so many fantastic stories, there are so many
brilliant characters in history, there's so much good stuff that
I never really understood this desire to specialize in one
thing and one thing only when you know everything that
happened on that street corner in Paris in fifteen twenty seven,
but you don't know anything about the rest of the stuff,
(04:22):
Like what's the point? You know? It's like, you don't
get me wrong. I mean, I understand that to become
good at something you need to put time and energy,
not just skim the surface. But you can become pretty
them good at some topics while also exploring other topics.
So I tend to be on your side. I'm more
of a general list than a specialist when it comes
to history and life in general.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah and so yeah, and so you know, Drunken Taoist
has a little crossover with History on Fire, but not much.
But I think actually today we're going to have an
interesting crossover of both of them, right, Yeah, so we are.
We're going to talk about talking about doing different stories
and finding new you know, new topics and new ideas
(05:05):
and things. And today, you know, we are going to
be talking about something that is a bit of a
departure for Badass and also for History on Fire, which
is that we are going to be talking about a
story that has very few homicides.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yes, highly unusual.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
No.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
I mean it's funny because so many of our stories,
the ones you guys cover, the ones psych over, I
have a blast cover in them. But then I start
thinking about it. It's like and there we go with
another massacre, with another war, with another you know, like
one of the revolving themes seem to be violence and
killing and generally fairly awful. Seeing set, I'm like, you know,
(05:48):
as much as that's definitely a part of history, that
cannot be all that is, And so I tend to
be I make a point sometime to seek out, if
nothing else, for variety's sake, to seek out stories that
are different, that are not just about killing people in
war and being tough. And this story definitely fits the bill.
(06:09):
This is as close as I can get a happy
story on History of fire where surprisingly the lead character
doesn't kill anybody, but it's still an incredible historical person.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Well, it's kind of goes with what you were saying
in the intro to your show on this Guy, and
it's like, you know, these stories of massacres and battles
and you know, less dance and heroic cavalry charges. Those
are awesome and they're great to read about, and I
love watching the films of them and reading about them,
but I don't want to live them, you know. I
(06:42):
never want to be that guy on the horse getting
shot at charge of the light brigade, you.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Know, definitely. And that's I think it's like it comes
there's a point where as much as you want to
tell fan apig story, sometime I think that we shouldn't
equate a fan and they piquate bloody and violent all
the time. And don't get me wrong, I enjoy my
share of blood and violence, but you know, if it's
(07:08):
not just the only thing we covered that would help,
that would end. So it's for me too, I mean
I do the exact same thing you do in that regard.
Is like so many of my stories are all try intense,
and they when by the time you finished listening to them,
you are like, that was insane, that was wild. But
I would like some time listeners to walk away with
(07:31):
a smile, just happy, just feeling good. And so this
tale for today tend to feed the bill. This is
probably one of my favorites all time.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Yeah, and how did you come upon this guy who
we've kind of been defining in negative terms, as in,
we've got the absence of lots and lots of murdering
and killing whatever. But obviously he has things that are
that he does or that he says that are of interest.
So who is this? How did you come upon him? Originally?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
So the way I run into this story is, I
don't know if you're familiar with the writer Tom Robbins,
the guy who wrote even Cowgary's Got the Blues Still Life,
which wore back all sort of really fun fiction the way,
And you know, I've always loved Tom Robbins as a writer.
I got to meet him, and he was a fantastic
human being. And at the same time, I've always been
(08:27):
always interested in that is means zam, Buddhism and things
like that. So one time I'm reading a Tom Robbins book,
I think It was an interview with him and they
asked him about, you know, if he had a time
machine or where he would want to be, and he
mentioned early fourteen hundreds, Kyouto hanging out with this guy IQ,
(08:47):
his favorite zet Master And I was like, come on,
said Master, that I don't know about that Tom Robbins love.
I got to find out more about this guy, and
you know, there's some stuff in the English language about him,
not a tone. I had to use my university library
privileges to dig up books that are no longer in
print since a long time. And the more I read,
(09:10):
the more I was just dying laughing because this guy's
is uh, it's so wild, so funny, so you river
and anti authority, hilarious, and you know, he had everything
going from for a character that I would dig as
a centerpiece for a story I like to tell. And
(09:31):
there was enough to sub to, you know, back up
the story of his life. There was enough evidence to argue, okay,
this is not just a two second thing where there's
there's more than enough evidence. I was like, okay, I'm
diving in. And the more I do, the more I
like the story. So it's think of it is if
there was an X rated version of Bugs Bandy was
(09:53):
a sand Master, that would be the story we play
with today because he's like this trickster figure.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
A mental image I'm getting.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, I don't know if that's good or bad.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Yeah, I mean, you kind of surprised me with this one,
because you know, I mean, and that's the great thing, right,
Stories come from all over the place. Inspiration for this
stuff comes from everywhere. You'll be reading. For me, I'll
be reading about one character and for one story and
working on and somebody else will pop up and be like,
whoa who is this guy? Wait? I never heard of
this before, and I was I was on I was
(10:28):
on your show. We recorded that last week. I don't
know when the when these will air compared to each other,
but you're like, oh, yeah, yeah it Sujun. And I
was like, he's like he's a zad master and he
was like total party animal. He'd be, you know, one
of the people you'd invite to dinner if you had
like your historical dinner party, you.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Know, dilemma.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
And I was like, oh my god, I don't know
anything about this guy. So I've been kind of frantically
trying to educate myself for the last week so I
could sound smart when we have this conversation.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Well, the good thing is that hardly anybody knows about
this guy a space in Japan they do, but of course,
you know, there's a little more popularity for the guy
in US, not so much. It's really not just US,
but like all English speaking countries, there's there's some material,
but not a lot. So I had a blast just
digging up pretty much everything there is about him in English,
(11:17):
putting it together as a as a storyline. And you know,
sometimes you do see a story that looks amazing when
you read the short article on it and you dig
deeper and there's nothing, or the story is not quite
as cool.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Or the guy is just like a huge prick and
you're like, actually, I hate this guy.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
The more I learned about theim, the more I realize
this guy's a monster.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, you got really bummed out. Whereas with this instead,
the more I dug into it, the happier I got.
I was like, oh, this is better than anything I
could have scripted here.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Oh this is great. Yeah, and we've got some of
his own writings. Some of his poems are translated into
English and they've got attitude.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Oh yeah, yeah, that's what's funny about him. He's the
poster boy for going against dogma, going against out archy,
going against the established order of things. And yet you know,
like many people do, like you take, like a Greek
philosopher like Diogenis, he did similar stuff. He also suffered
(12:19):
from the punk rock syndrome. You know, he's great when
he's talking crap about everyone else, but when you look
at what he does, there's not a whole lot that
he creates in alternative that you say, oh, this is amazing.
He's just an hilarious prankster. But we take you. You
get his criticism of established authority, that's brilliant, but then
you look at what he does in his life and
(12:39):
you're like, oh, that's even better. So it's there's two
sides of the coin. You know, there's both the distraction
of established order and the creation of something better.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, well I guess we should we
should get into it. This is going to be Echio
so June, and we are going to get into the
story right after this break. Okay, welcome back. We are
(13:09):
here with Danielle from history on fire and Danielle, you
are going to tell us about equ Suzu.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yes, my favorite historical character out of the hundreds that
I've studied, cover and everything, this is probably my favorite tale.
His life is so odd that it looks like fiction.
You know, he was born in thirteen ninety four, and
they're rather complicated circumstances. His father was the Emperor of Japan.
(13:40):
Now granted, the emperor in the thirteen hundreds or fourteen
hundreds doesn't really mean much because they were essentially a
figurehead with minimal political power. You know, the showguns would
just keep them around, put them on the head, say
give me your blessing and go back to partying and
leave us alone.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So the emperor, it sounds superpower or folly, wasn't. But
it was still an important figurehead, you know. Nonetheless, man
was he was he a deity?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Was he god? Is he considered godlike? Or yeah?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
I mean depend in popular rhetoric, yes, people would give
him credit, but the reality is that, you know, the
warlords did whatever they wanted and they just ask for
his blessings, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So it's more like the more like a weaker Roman
emperor where they they wanted to call them god, but
they don't actually have any god power exactly.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
Ideally, you don't call him god during their lifetime except
for certain emperors, you know. But yeah, so anyway, so
his dad is the emperor, which okay, a figurehead, but
still an important figurehead and not some random obscure farmer
in the countryside or something.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah. This, awever, does not play well for EQ because
his mom was just a lady at court, wasn't the
wife of the emperor. And she actually did just made
the peace. There had been a civil war between the
northern side and the Southern side, and she was from
the southern side. The emperor had been tied to the
(15:08):
northern side. They just made the peace. But the notion
of having a possible next in line to the throne
who was tied to the southern side did not go
well with a lot of people at court, and so
there was a big push to get the if not
the kid outright killed, at least get him neutralized out
of the way. So his mom was casted out of
(15:31):
the court. She gave birth to weekq Week. You didn't
even get to spend that much time with her because
possibly because she was either too poor to take care
of him by the point, or possibly because she was
afraid that they would kill him as a possible next
in line to the throne. She put him in a
Zigen monastery when it was only five years old, basically
(15:51):
giving everybody the message, look, leave this kid alone. He's
just going to be a monk. He's not going to
have anything to do with your politics. He's not recognized,
is the just lett him be?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
And you see some of that in the in Europe
as well, where kings you know he's a potential threat
to the throne, they'll they'll make him take holy orders,
he'll become a monk or a priest or something, because
then he's he's not a threat to inherit the crown
or the throne or anything.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
So yeah, so I have a question in Japan at
this time, if you give your kid to a zen monastery,
is the idea that it's kind of similar to the
European situation where the kid might very well get raised
and the expectation is that the kid will then take
holy orders or is it just like education for a
few years and then they get a new.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Career or it could go either way, but it seems
that more often than not it does go into these
guys become monks. You know, it can be that he's
a temporary thing, but more often than not, it's it's
ver real deal. This is what these guys will do, which,
of course fordiq it was not a choice. You know,
(16:59):
he ever decided I want to study zam Buddhism, I
want to become a monk. I want to be part
of this. It definitely beats the alternative, which was getting
his head chopped off in a political conspiracy. So in
that light, ze Buddhism didn't seem so much after World Yeah, exactly.
So it's like, okay, I guess monastery as severe an
(17:19):
environment as it would be, still better than the alternative.
There's one thing that we should probably say about zam Buddhism.
You know, if in the West, in particular, zam Buddhism
as this reputation for this very almost anarchistic tradition within Buddhism,
very you know, you read guys like Alan Watts who
have popularized zam Buddhism in the West a lot, and
(17:42):
you get this impression of this very loose and free
type of philosophy.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah, when I hear like being Zen. I picture like
a guy on a surfboard.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yeah right. It has this happy pe vibe to it all.
That is how it's popularized.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
People use it to mean also sorts of things. Yeah, like, oh,
I spilled coffee on my shirt. I was so then
about it?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right exactly. The reality is a bit
different in the sense that historically, I mean, the part
that's not different is historically Zen is the result of
the union between Buddhism going into China and meeting Daoism,
and the meeting of those two created was called Chan
(18:24):
Buddhism in China, and that became zim Buddhism in Japan.
So it's as a very Taoist overtones in its philosophy.
But the reality is that living in the monasteries was
anything but the free flowing, you know, very rigid discipline,
very strict meditation, schedule, work card, don't get to sleep match.
You know. It's not this surfer guy talking philosophy while
(18:49):
smoking weed on the beach is not that at all.
Considerably rougher environment and DQ during his early years he
struggles with it because he's clearly on one end. He's
clearly brilliant, like all of his teachers remark on how
smart the guys, and now even his grasp of Zen
(19:09):
seems to be amazing and unparalleled on the other end,
precisely because he actually likes Zen. He hates what the
en establishment has become, and he regularly clashes with it
on a regular basis, to the point of like, the
most famous of these early classes is that one thing
that existed in Zen was this idea of the Certificate
(19:32):
of Enlightenment. It's like the equivalent of your spiritual PhD,
where you know, a master has to recognize they are
enlightened so that then you are a master and can
start your own monastery and stuff.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
Like that, and you have a piece of paper to prove.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
It, yes, exactly. And he when they gave it to
it was like, certificate of Enlightenment are your kids? So
he burned it, which was like, you know, this guy
spent their lives trying to get and it's given to me,
and he's like, keep me up, break, what is this.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
It's interesting though, because it's a thing that you know,
you know, because we have this mentality of Zen being
surf for dude smoking weed. You know, you don't think
of zen Buddhism having some of the same problems that
we see in Catholicism and some of the Western religions
and just kind of organized religion in general, where it's like, yeah,
(20:26):
they're saying, like, you know, Jesus said be cool to
everybody and help poor people, and like be you know,
nice to your neighbors, and we've turned that in somehow
to like let's chop everybody's heads off who disagrees with us,
you know, And then where we run into these like
once you kind of have these powerful church social structures
where you know, you're learning all of this stuff, but
(20:48):
the thing that you're practicing is the opposite of what
you're learning. That's kind of a disconnect there, And you
don't think of zen Buddhism having that as well. But
I imagine any any like hierarchy setup where people are
going to have power other people kind of invites that
a little bit.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
You're going to have politics, you're going to have bureaucracy,
you're going to have arbitrary stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
So yeah, so if you burned his certificate and what
did he do?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Then so they are, but they don't want to give
up on him. They keep trying to kind of really
mean despite his weird eccentric behavior and the fact that
it's so bizarre, I mean, speaking of giving up stuff,
you know, he gives up the Certificate of Enlightenment. On
the other end, at some point is his father decide
to see him, and sort of analogism and all of that.
(21:38):
They have very union, and in the meantime, eq saff brother,
the other son of the emperor, had died, so in
a way there was you know, realistically how desperate that
his father was to where somebody was next in line.
It's not a stretch to argue that if Heq had
push for it, he could have probably gotten recognized and
become the next emperor of Japan. But the reality is
(22:01):
that Iki was as uninterested in becoming the emperor as
he was in becoming the top priest in some temple.
He just didn't give a crap. It seemed like all
very artificial, like whether it's a spiritual bureaucracy or playing
figurehead for some powerful warlord. He was like, yeah, I
(22:22):
don't really want to have any part on any of these. So,
if anything, he suggested to his dad, why don't you
pick this so and so relative, he seemed like it
would be a good fit for the job, and didn't
want to do that either. So again he leaves you
with what does this guy?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Meanwhile like people and people around him were literally murdering
each other for this, for this possibility or the chance
of being able to do that sover sisely.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
So it's it's pretty funny. There's one thing that happens
at one point that's one of my favorite tq anadts
of all is that, in an effort to really mean
they they give him a post overseeing this one smaller monastery,
saying no, maybe by giving him a responsibility will get
him back into the fold, and he eventually gets a
(23:10):
little older, he'll mellow out, and a few days go
by and nobody can find him anymore, and so they
are looking for him. It's like he's the head of
her monastery. Where did he go? He was a writer
all his life, he always wrote a ton of poems
and stuff, And they find this poem that he left
behind in his quarters that basically said, look, guys, let's
(23:33):
be real. Nine days in this monastery and I'm losing
my mind. So if anybody come looking for me, I'm
either at the saki shop or I'm at the bral
see you guys, And they're like, wait what you know?
Speaker 1 (23:49):
But he wrote it as a poem. He didn't just
leave like a note on his door. He wrote it
in poem for yeah, beautiful literature. Original did he calligraphy
at himself?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
He does all this very fancy, beautiful stuff, and so
you are left with this feeling of like wait what.
And the funny thing is that for the rest of
his life, those three elements, because it does like Zen
so zend Buddhism, women and alcohol are his three main
passions in no particular order. By the way, they tend
(24:21):
to be very much intermixed throughout his life. And besides
the obviously hilarious aspect of it all of like, oh,
this sounds like a fun guy to party with. The
thing that's funny about him is that there was actually
a point even related to Zen Buddhism, in the sense
that one of the things that is constantly going against
is the pretense of spirituality, this idea that spirituality is
(24:46):
something separate from daily life, whereas equ is almost making
a point by embracing and openly embracing because you know,
a bunch of Zen, Buddhist monks reach a certain doctrine
and then they would go out drinking and go to
prostitute or something that was hypocritical because they are saying
one thing and doing another. It is completely at front.
(25:07):
It's like what you see is what you get. Is
not hiding, it is not trying to and this approach
is trying to say, look, there is no spirituality like
in some clouds of incense uper Mountain. Spirituality is day
to day life, live with full awareness, which is ultimately
what Zen is is about this presence of being in
the midst of everything. And so he's not only not
(25:32):
hiding but flaunting all kinds of behaviors that's more morals
and Buddhist should condemn and see as antithetical to a
spiritual path. To him, they are very much part of
his spiritual path.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah, and that's something that I love. Right. So, you know,
we've got this kid, this illegitimate son of the emperor,
who turns out might actually have had like a solid
claim on the throne and could have ascended if he
had shown any interest in it. But instead he you know,
as a child, he goes off to this Buddhist monastery
where he's raised, and he learns Zen Buddhism, and he
(26:08):
learns it to a degree where he realizes nobody here
is practicing what they're teaching, and this is all They're
all more kind of obsessed with the hierarchy and playing
politics and wearing fancy clothes and having people give them
certificates of enlightenment that they can frame for their offices.
And this guy's like, well, this is all bullshit, right,
this is you guys are saying one thing, and you're
(26:30):
trying to teach me one thing. But then the thing,
like what you were saying earlier about how Ichio could
create new stuff as well. One thing that's really awesome
about him is that he can. He just does whatever
he wants. He goes to the brothels, any drinks, any parties,
and he wears you know, he wears regular clothes to
fancy things just to make people treat him nice because
(26:52):
he is still actually like a high level Zen monk.
And then when people call him out on it and
are like, dude, what are you doing, he can like
beat them in a philosophy argument on their own religion,
like actually, I'm doing reals in Buddhism you guys are
doing whatever. Like now, grab a surfboard and a and
some weed and like let's just hang out and be cool.
This is what it's all about. But the fact that
(27:15):
he's able to kind of beat them at their own
philosophy is just it's an added layer of that.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
I just love about him. Yeah, that's what's funny about
the guy. That is in many way because he's the
real thing when it comes to them, he inevitably clashes
with the establishment. Like one thing he hates about the
Zign establishment, well, many things he hates about. One of
them is how cough up to they are, because they said,
you know, half of the time, you guys are just
panded into some merchant each money giving him certificates of
(27:43):
oh you are a great Buddhist this and that, where
you are really selling out the religion for the sake
of making money. And so again he's like, these guys
will represent the image of what Zien is supposed to be,
and they have their shaved head and they are in
their robes and leaving the monastery and at least officially
pretend to live by certain rules, then they are, in
(28:05):
his opinion, they are just selling out with Zennis and
they don't really have it, whereas real Zen is fround
the outside of the monastery for him, and it's it's
like there's a line that's.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Creating a hierarchy for it is like, you know, the
opposite of exactly Buddha was trying to accomplish or was
trying to teach in the first place.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
And Nick likes to wink at this guy, you know,
he likes to poke them and write things that. Of course,
there are multiple layers to it. He's saying it intentionally provocative,
Like there's a line of his that say, don't hesitate,
get laid. That's deep wisdom. Sitting around chanting sutras, that's crap,
and they say that send mogs who spent their lives.
(28:48):
It's just hilarious. You know.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
He reminds me, and I think you talk about it
a little in your podcast as well, But the patron
saint of Bhutan is like that triplequently, he had the
same similar kind of deal. I think he wrote somebody
he was also like a drinker and a partier, and
he like getting laid and having drinks and partying and
all this stuff. And some higher level Buddhist monk complained
(29:12):
to him and was like, how did they let you
out of Hell? And he was like, oh, I was
actually on my way there, but the path was so
clogged with corrupt priests that I couldn't get through. I
had to come back.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I know, is another one exactly like that? Like I
find he's just as good. He has very similar stories.
The sources are a little thing. They're on his life,
but you know, it's just that he's very much reminds
me of Think You big Time. There's a line speaking
of Hell that I was just looking through by notes
and I ran into that. He goes with a young beauty.
(29:46):
I mean, gross, the infervent love play. We sit here
in the pavilion, a pleasure girl and this sand monk,
and rapture by hugs and kisses. I certainly don't feel
as if I'm burning in hell. You know, he would
arrive these six and said about the monks just to
poke them, just to get under their skin.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
And speaking of sources, because I'm curious, we've got his poetry,
what other sources do we have on him?
Speaker 2 (30:15):
There's some of his disciples wrote biographies office and these
were people who were with him, who knew him, so
they were kind of like a first stand account of
people when they live with him, were around him. There
are two or three of those biographies, so you can
kind of fact check them with each other, and you know,
of course the things that they all report are more
(30:37):
likely the true ones, and so on and so forward.
There are few references to him in like more officials
and record the keeping of the temples and so on.
He dies, I think it is late eighties or something.
And you know, in part of the time that he
lived in there was the beginning of the Sengoku period
(30:58):
in Japanese, when the brutal civil war that will last
for over a cent to re begin or during his lifetime,
and so during the early wars, the match of Kyoto
is born to the ground. This main Zend temple where
he had trained had been part of is also destroyed,
and they have nobody left to rebuild. They don't know
(31:20):
what to do, and so they turned to wik You.
Because of his connection in the wider world of Japan,
his love by so many people. He has hook ups
with anything from pirates to merchants to everybody. So they
lend him all this massive amount of food and essentially
rebuild the very temple he has spent his life criticizing,
(31:41):
you know, he made his life criticizing the Senate establishment
and then oddly an effort of the vigor you love
that one of the biggest temples in Kyoto get to
be rebuilt thanks to him. So there's this beautiful parable
there that's absolutely larious.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
So that's an interesting thing that we should talk about
because because Iko is is he's an agent of chaos, right,
He's going against everything that the temple is saying that
he should be doing, and he's acting acting out, and
he's being you know, in some of the stories, he's
being disrespectful to aristocrats and to the leadership of the
Zen temples and things, and he's he's pissing off everybody
(32:17):
in Japan. But rather than that, coming back to and
people just love him like people, he's just kind of
like he becomes a celebrity in his lifetime.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
I think there's something about a society that was so
gitally structured seeing somebody who seemed so completely free, so
unencumbered by all the things that normal people struggle lunder,
and normal people want to climb ahead in the hierarchy.
If you're a monk, become the more powerful monk. He
(32:47):
doesn't give a crap, so you can, oh, maybe with
political power, you can tempt him. He doesn't give a crap.
He just doesn't care about the payoff that normal people
chase around for their whole lives.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
You know, there's a joke I heard once about a
guy and he goes to Mexico and he's hanging out
on the beach in Mexico and there's a fisherman there.
The Mexican fisherman is like, yeah, this is the life,
you know. I catch fish and then I drink some
wine and I go home to my wife. And the
American is like, oh, well, you could get a couple
more boats, and if you sold your fish here, then
you could build a bigger empire, and then you could
(33:20):
really kind of take over all of the fishing in
this area and make a bunch of money. And the
fisherman is like, why would I do that? And then
the Americans like, oh, because then you could, you know,
invest some of that money, and then you could retire,
and then you could you could just spend all day
fishing and drinking wine and hang out with your wife.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Exactly that's funny too that where it's set, you know,
that's very much where we que it's set. And in
the process of doing that, he definitely makes some enemies
in the Zen establishment. He also gets a lot of
people who adore him, not only at a popular level,
like on the streets, so to speak. People love him,
but I love I think like one of the things
(34:00):
I love about Tiki is the fact that he so
many people that you have seen and you have heard
of who are more accepting of sexuality or embracing it
within spiritual circles, or they are a little more reverence
or breaking the rules or doing stuff like that. You
often as you dig deeper, you find out that they
(34:22):
do it in very self serving ways where they are
screwing over everyone else to go one. So bending the
rules really meant I want to bend the rules because
I want to get what I want. That's not at
all what you get to Iq whose people just love him.
You never hear a story of him taking advantage of
anybody or using the freedom of his to be the
(34:44):
guy who gets what he wants and screws over someone else.
So there's there's a certain level of a deep morality
but it doesn't preach it. It's not there saying we
need to be good. He's just a nice person who's
just very free in his life.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah. Yeah, he says, like, you know, wouldn't we all
just wouldn't the world be better if we all just
like got drunken had sex? Right, Yeah, look at this,
I'm just gonna do my thing, and like, actually, you'd
all be happier if you just did this instead of
try to stab each other in the back over political
positions that nobody cares about.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Yeah, and pieces of paper certifying that you have attained
enlightness exactly.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
And there is a funny twist to the story. So
one of the things that happens is that in addition
to him having a glorious time throughout his life, he
has an enormous impact on Japanese cultural life for the
next several centuries because he gathers you know, he doesn't
have a formal school, he doesn't have a temple. He
(35:44):
just roams around the rights breaches to everyone to listen
to him and stuff. But he gathers around him a
whole collection of artist, musicians, actors, all sort of merchants.
Even people had nothing to do with cultural life. But
like there's this very odd mix of people who start
(36:06):
following him any time, any chance they get, visiting, any
chance they get. So he has this mini court of
people hanging around him, and most of them become incredibly
influential people in Japanese cultural history, from a guy who
revolutionized the way theater was done in Japan to calligraphy
(36:26):
master to the guy who's going to become the main
tea ceremony guy in Japan for the next generation too.
So his ideas, while he's not trying to do that person,
they will end up having this tremendous impact that is
felt through the ages afterwards because of all the people
he influences in a direct kind of way. Because this
(36:50):
could quote disciples, even though there's nothing formal about it.
Are these human beings who they themselves will have a
big impact.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
He just had awesome parties, and then all of the
celebrities in Japan, all of the artists and everybody. It's
like Danie Warhol or something, right, all these people just
wanted to be near him and be part of the party,
and you know, cultural movements got started and yeah, and
so he just kind of had this revolution in Japan
and at a time where people really needed it, because
(37:19):
you did say, like, this is the Warring States period, right,
so there's a lot of there's the death and destruction
and murder in Mayhem is not central to this story,
but it is happening in very close proximity to this story.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Yeah. And there's a famine at some point too, right.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, yeah, there was, because I mean this is the
period in this is where all it's the beginning of
the war in States period. So it's the beginning. There's famine,
there's civil war, there's you know, the external context, this
brutal He's not just there having a parody that is
a disease. He's like sometime, you know, he has to
flee where he lives in Kyoto. The place where he
(37:57):
used to leave gets burned down. It's like, all these
crazy things happen, but he somehow managed to arise above it.
And that there's also another twist in his tale that
when in his seventies he falls after a life definitely
dedicated to her. Women in the plural were very much
something that he enjoyed deeply. When in his seventies he
(38:20):
fools Meddle in love with this blind singer. This woman.
We don't know exactly how well she was. She's definitely
a lot younger than him, but we don't know exactly
how much. And you know, initially, because there's such a
huge age gap, he doesn't think anything of it. You know,
he's they hang out together, they are friends, but there's
nothing to it until eventually something sparks between them and
(38:42):
then their romance become one of the most celebrated love
stories in Japanese history. And he's actually you know, when
they paint his portrait, which is kind of a big deal,
you know, zen Masters of them, they had their portrait painted,
which is how they will be known for the few
you know, there are no photographs, right, official portrait is
pretty much the only way you're going to be known
(39:02):
from there forward. He actually has Horror posing Wittim for
the portrait, which is a huge no no. You know,
there is no zen Master who's with a woman in
his official portrait and he's super in love with her,
and they take the portrait together where she shows up
Wittym and stuff, and so it's there's this a layer
(39:23):
of this very late life romance that become super celebrated
in Japanese culture, which you know, if he wasn't cool
enough already, he just adds another level to it. All.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, And so he is a big
slip because I think I had never heard of him
before you mentioned him, and you you had been exposed
to him kind of later on in your career. And
I don't know, Pat, if you've if you'd heard of
him before this.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
But honestly, I had not heard of him before daniel
A suggested, Hey, let's talk about him for the episode.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
So yeah, honestly, like I couldn't even remember the name
of the I couldn't remember the name of the person.
And so you had said like, oh, we're going to
talk about this this monk who was crazy. And so,
for whatever reason, because I had been listening to your
ben Venudo Ucillini episode at the time, I went to
Pat and I was like, Oh, we're going to do
a monk. He's like a a hard drinking, like hard partying.
(40:18):
You think it, I want to say, like like it
Renaissance Italy.
Speaker 4 (40:22):
Yeah, And I started immediately Italian name. Well, I wouldn't no, no, no,
not actually, but I was trying to think, like who
might be at least somewhat overlapping with the description, and
not all of them were crazy sex fiends. One of
them was Athanasius Kirker, who was cool and nerdy in
(40:44):
his own right, but to my knowledge, was not known
as being a sex fiend. And also sex fiend is
I feel like sex fiend is a little bit demrogatory.
I feel like this guy just just he loves pleasure.
He loves sharing pleasure and being in the moment.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
And you know, so I think being implies criminality too.
That's probably the total wrong word to use.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
But well find or that you're not in control of it,
and he's seems to me that he's managing anyway. But
to your point, then this guy IQ is not well
known in America, and so Ben, you and I had
to do a little bit of work to get to know.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
And I think that's what's interesting sometimes that you know
so many of When we open any history book, every
other story is the Bordas and Alexander the Great and
the Caesar, and you know, it's always political figures, usually
involved in major wars and scheming and murders, and that's
(41:43):
you know, so much of what we what passes as
history is the history of gangsters on a large scale.
You know, it's like, it's nice to be reminded that
there are fun human beings, engaging human beings, enjoyable human
beings who can be a remember for or something gather
than killing a whole bunch of people or scheme in
(42:03):
to get power. You know, it's a healthier reminder that
this stuff is there. He just not watch. So many
of our history.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Books have focused on well, that's something that like we
talked about on your show, and that we that you
talked about in kind of the introduction to your series
on IQ, which is that, at least in the US, weirdly,
like I do these books for school kids, and I
get censored on kissing stuff all the time. My editors like,
(42:33):
I don't think we can put that in there. But
the violence, that's fine. Nobody cares, right, you know. And
it's kind of interesting how we have this total complacency
with extreme violence and gore, but anything sexual immediately starts
sending off alarm bells everywhere. It's interesting because this guy Ikyo,
he you know, he was the kind of more like
(42:56):
what we should all be trying to be, like, right,
we should be trying to be more like IQ and
less like to go.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah. I mean when you look at exactly the people
were famous in that period of Japanese history, they are
mostly monsters, you know, or Tokuga or Hideyoshi. You know,
these guys are serious, brutal gangsters who do horrible seeings,
even to their own families in their quest to gain power.
Here have IQ doesn't hurt a fly. It's having a blast,
(43:24):
makes everybody around the happy. Other that overstuffed and guys
and uh, and there's a huge positive impact on a
ton of people life. And in the process he enjoys
his life. It's no martyr suffering. He just managed to
find a good way to live life.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Did his like counterculture stuff ever come back to him?
I remember, you know, I remember Voltaire once wrote he
was famously lampooning all of the aristocracy of France and stuff.
But he once wrote that he he had bought a
house that was really close to the border of Italy,
so that if the French army ever did come for him,
(44:02):
he could run out his back door and be in Italy.
Did anything ever like like that ever happened with the
Hu No run ins with the famous people that he
wronged and they felt the need to draw samurai sword
on him or something.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
No, he got coat in the middle of the Civil War,
so at some point he had to flee the city,
and where he was staying got all borned down and
you lost so much stuff, but not in a personal way,
like nobody was coming after him personally, And I think
that's what's funny that even people he clashed with, somehow
they couldn't helped to like him anyway. You know, there
(44:38):
was an element of like, why do you have to
be such a pain in the ass bat he are
really fat there, there's something he'd bet about you, you know.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
Yeah, because when somebody acts out like that, you know,
and just just like, I'm just gonna be me. I'm
not going to do this thing that you want me
to do. I'm going to do my own thing. There's
always that kind of like, oh, you're going to get
in trouble, but he never did, which is just amazing.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Well yeah, yeah, and that's where I'm actually going to
read you something I found it in my notes. This
is how I close my series on him, because it's
underscore another point that to me is important in his
story because as much as a year. I love all
these jokes, and I love his while drinking and sex stories.
(45:19):
And by the way, I should mention one more of
those before I go into the point I was trying
to beg when he's really old and it's close to death.
One point, he has a discussion with some of his
disciples and he says, I know that after I die,
some of you are just going to spend your time
partying with women, and some of you are going to
turn to the mountains to meditate alone. And he said,
(45:42):
both types of zen are fine with me. Those are
good paths, both of those. However, if you become a
professional cleric and start babbling about zen as the way,
then you are by enemy again. I thought it was
hilarious because to hear it is like meditation in the
mountains and actual carogs. It's all those are two good
(46:02):
said paths. They both are. And so I had to
throw that in because it's another beautiful little and I
talked about him. But like the thing that also I
really cherish about his story is his complete unwillingness to
maybe there's a bad you know what, I'm just going
to read you this part because he really captured this
(46:24):
point about him trying to find happiness, real happiness in
the midst of a really heavy context. Because it's not heavy,
everything easier handed to him. So I'll read you this
quick part. It said, Sickness, heart to break, the inevitable
decline of old, age, failure, and death stalk every one
of us. We live in a universe in which everything
(46:47):
we love gets to be taken away from us sooner
or later. Our very existential conditions dictate that every single
human will deal with heavy suffering. Ikey was no stranger
to life's harsh side. Was disowned by his father before
he was even born, was separated from his mother by
the time he was five, lived through periods of famine, floods,
(47:09):
and civil war, and so ninety percent of his hometown
burned to the ground, plus thousands of people dying all
around him. And yet, in what is possibly my favorite
line ever written, he wrote, throw into hell and I'll
find a way to enjoy it. He is not promoting,
(47:29):
you know, some kind of delusional form of positive thinking.
He's not willfully blind about how brutal life can be.
He knows the hell, whether psychological or the hell of
horrible material conditions, is never far away and can knock
on the door at any minute. So in that sense,
almost Hell is inescapable. There's no denying it. And yet
(47:52):
what he's doing is denying the Hell can have power
over his consciousness as much as he can possibly manage.
Know he they said of him, they say joy in
the midst of suffering is the mark of equ school
because he shows this playfulness as a way to keep
finding beauty is an art, you know, and I bow
(48:15):
to anyone who can master it. And you know, because
to me, that's what the real spiritual depth is about,
is that ability to find the joy when life doesn't
really give you that much, the many reasons for it.
And in that regard, I can't think of anybody better
than Iqi to teach this because his whole life was
about this stuff. And so that's why, in addition to
(48:35):
the obvious hilarious element of it all and how much
it makes me laugh and how funny is I also
find an inspirational on that level.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Yeah, and what a great what a great message too,
right of you know, life is hard, but you know
it is what you make of it, and you can
try to find the positive and have a good time
with it, you know, and it's kind of goes to
the point we were saying earlier where we don't have
to read that in high school, which is when you
really need it. We're reading Machiavellian's just the opposite of
(49:04):
what we need as a society and as individual. Well, Danielle,
thank you so much for for doing this. I know that,
like you know, for you're taking your time out to
come here and tell the story for us, and it's fun.
We really appreciate it. Do we have any kind of
final thoughts on on Ikyo before we before we wrap
(49:27):
this up?
Speaker 2 (49:29):
I don't know. I think throw them into hell and
I'll find a way to enjoy it. This is as
good as a one line or I can ever think of.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
You know, that's I don't even.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Know how we read It's great. Yeah, I'm gotta try.
I'm trying to make that my life's flaws in the
face of because you know, the reality is, we all
run into terrible things happening in our life. There's no
avoiding it. We all will deal with we have dealt with,
we will deal with it. But having that attitude as
much as humanly possible definitely helps.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Yeah, it could always be worse, right, it can always
be can always be better, and it can always be worse. Daily.
Thank you so much for being on the show.
Speaker 4 (50:04):
And we can find your podcasts on History on Fire.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Yeah. So about EQ, I did two episodes. There are
two hours long each, so I dive real deep into
that story. But then, you know, like what I do
every month is speak a story, do as much of
a deep dive as I can into telling either the
life of somebody or one event or something that I find.
You know, in that regard, I very much. You guys
(50:31):
have the same taste as I do. I like these
larger than life tales that make you go, did that
really happen? No way somebody? That's the fun of it all,
you know. So that's what I try to do as well,
in in just narrative form and just the research a
bunch and I got to tell the story.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Yeah, so History on Fire is the podcast. I definitely
recommend that everybody go check out all of it, but
especially the the what we were just talking about, because
you do get you do deep dive into some really
good stories that uh that you know, we don't have,
we won't have the time to get to here. But
they're amazing and you did a great job with the
research and organization and everything. And I'm on the I'm
(51:12):
on there as well, so if you guys want to
come and check out the episode that I did with
with Danielle, it's available there as well.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
So that was fun. That was a lot. Yeah, we
had a blast. That one is actually gonna be I've
gotta put it in two places. I'm gonna put that
on the other podcast that I have, the Drunken Taoist,
and then I'm also gonna put it on the Patreon
for Patreon listeners who are hardcore History on Fire listeners
will also get it that way.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Is there anywhere else we can find you? It's History
on Fire and Drunken Towist.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
Yeah, that's yeah. Cool ones.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
All right, Well, thank you so much for being on here.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Thank you so much for having me. It was a blast.
Speaker 4 (51:48):
Thank you, Thank you, daniel Stay. Badass Badass of the
Week is an iHeartRadio podcast produced by five Content. Executive
producers are Andrew Jacobs, Me, Pat Larish, and my co
host Ben Thompson. Writing is by me and Ben. Story
(52:10):
editing is by Ian Jacobs, Brandon Phibbs Mixing and music
and sound design is by Jude Brewer. Special thanks to
Noel Brown at iHeart Badass of the Week is based
on the website Badass oftheweek dot com, where you can
read all sorts of stories about other badasses. If you
want to reach out with questions ideas, you can email
(52:33):
us at Badass podcast at badassotheweek dot com. If you
like the podcast, subscribe, follow, listen, and tell your friends
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