Episode 3: The Lawyer's Advice

Jon's second wife reveals some home truths about her brief failed marriage and why she decided to file for divorce, triggering a bitter row over the house she and Jon built in Sandstone Crescent, Lennox Head. The house is close to where Bronwyn would build a house with Jon several years later.

When Bronwyn decides to get a locksmith in and take her lawyer's advice to move back into the house, friends are worried for her. One reveals that she talked to Bronwyn on the day she vanished – May 16, 1993 – and insists that the devoted mother of two had made no mention of going away for a break.

Jon decides to fly back to Lennox Head from Sydney, arriving on the Sunday evening after going to see police at nearby Ballina.

Read more about this case and see photographs, maps, timelines and more at bronwynpodcast.com. 

If you have information which may help solve this cold case, you can contact our team confidentially by emailing [e-mail]

If you need support, Lifeline can be reached on 13 11 14.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains coarse
language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian. Of course,

(00:42):
I know about your former marriage to John Winfield, all right,
I've actually read your police statement and I was wondering
if I could have a chat to you, an interview
with you about John and whether you've got anything that
might be helpful in this investigation of an alleged murder.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
He was just if you walk down the street, he
accuse you of looking at other blokes and just all
that sort of stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
In the days after the release of episode two in
this podcast series, John Winfield's second wife agreed to speak
to me about her brief marriage to the man suspected
by police of having murdered his third wife, Bromwin. John
emphatically denies any involvement in foul play, and he has

(01:30):
never been charged over Bronwan's disappearance. In nineteen ninety three,
he told me in an email that Bromman's family has
a history of mental illness. Over the years, John has
told friends and others who ask about Broman's disappearance that
she was mentally unstable. Bromwan's family and friends completely reject

(01:53):
those claims. They say it's John's cover story to try
to deflect from.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
What they accuse him of having done to Bromwin. Now.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
John's second wife has been closely following what is coming
out in this podcast series. When I spoke to her
for the first time, she said, I.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Just actually was babysitting my grandson today and I was
listening to the two episodes that you did. We had
a happy relationship, but from what I've heard today, it
sounded like they didn't have very happy relationship at all for.

Speaker 4 (02:27):
A long time.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
Why did you split up? Then?

Speaker 2 (02:31):
Because he was possessive, Like if I was walked down
the street, he would say, why are you looking at
that guy? I felt like it couldn't look sideways like
what Bromin's obviously said too.

Speaker 4 (02:43):
So it was just accusing you of looking at other men.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
And I think that's what sort of greats on you
after a while, because you're so devoted. So who was
telling you that you're looking at other people?

Speaker 5 (02:53):
And you're not.

Speaker 4 (02:55):
If anyone does that, they must be insecure.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
And there'd been no issues in your relationship and shit
that could have caused him to believe that you would
be looking at other guds.

Speaker 4 (03:05):
No, I loved him so much.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
Have you stayed in touch with him?

Speaker 4 (03:10):
No? No, definitely not.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
I'm giving John's second wife a name which is not
her real name, but this is her voice.

Speaker 4 (03:20):
Because I don't want my name anywhere in there.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
What about I just say that when you were married
to John, you're a much younger woman, and I'm going
to call you D as in DA. Back then you
were d Winfield. And now you've remarried, and we won't
say what your new married name is.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
Okay, yep.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
I got three girls and they didn't even know I
was married until little while ago to John.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
They were together as husband and wife for just eighteen months,
and d wants to stress a few important things. John
did not harm her physically. He did not raise a
fist to strike her, nor put his hands around her
throat and squeeze, he told me, and he didn't threaten

(04:10):
her with violence.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
He was never violent to me. I know, I wasn't
fearful of him. He was still possessive. But that's about all.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
Because I didn't know anything about them until today when
I was listening to that those two.

Speaker 3 (04:23):
What are they called episodes?

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, I do remember I tore all my photos up
with my old boyfriends.

Speaker 4 (04:30):
When I looked back on it, like I tore all my.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
Photos up that had other boyfriends in it kept me
and then I had to tew away the other ones
with the ex boyfriends in it. Obviously I didn't do
that on my own back, sharing the ex boyfriend outfit
and throwing them away.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
And when you said you couldn't have done that off
your own bat, what do you mean.

Speaker 4 (04:54):
I must have felt that I did it for him.
I mean, all of a sudden I realized I hadn't
gone out with the girls with girlfriends or anything. It's
not the news that we were together.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
And then I suppose you just realize then you think, God,
don't think this is that healthiest.

Speaker 4 (05:11):
But we were young.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
De grew up in the shire around Cranala, south of
Sydney too, and although d didn't serve, she was often
at the beach.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
John being a good surfer, we even had like a
little surf shop down at Kraa that we started with
John and I.

Speaker 4 (05:29):
And then we saw that we moved up the coast
and you moved.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
To Lennox Head with him.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yes, we had a good time up there that we
actually built a house up at Sandstone Present, and then
when we separated, he went back up there and built.

Speaker 4 (05:46):
A house a couple of hours up. Last night, I
tried to google it to see because I know what
it looks like.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
Did you do some laboring there yourself, D?

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, I used to help, used to help build some
hours of bricks in. I was there every day with you,
and then we moved the car ran up to the
block of land.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
How do you feel about what you're hearing and reading now?

Speaker 2 (06:13):
Just brings back memories and plus I feel sorry for
someone and their children not having each other.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
Nobody's heard from her for thirty one years.

Speaker 4 (06:25):
Yeah, that's so sad.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
I know the family would be really'll be devastating for
them just not knowing where she is or what happened.

Speaker 4 (06:35):
Yeah, you can't imagine it, can You? No guarantee that
for all those years.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
I have D's brief written statement to police. She made
it in nineteen ninety eight during Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor's investigation.
And then you say John was quite bitter about the
settlement following our.

Speaker 5 (06:57):
Separation because he had to sell the house.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
What did he want to see happen?

Speaker 5 (07:05):
Well?

Speaker 2 (07:05):
No, we separated, so then I had to go for settlement.
And I've always been a saver and I had money.
And what I put into the house is only what
I took out. I wasn't taking more than what I
actually put in.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
You say John didn't want to give me anything? No, well,
how would that have worked out?

Speaker 4 (07:27):
No?

Speaker 2 (07:28):
Well that's why I had to go. I went to
court to get a settlement.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
I had to get a solicitor and go to court
to get my share of the property.

Speaker 4 (07:37):
Yeah, we went to court and it was sort of
out in court.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
When did you last see John at court?

Speaker 4 (07:45):
When we got our settlement.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
It took me like a little while to try and
get a divorce from him. I try and save him
the papers and he wouldn't take them. Eventually happened, and
then I moved on.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
And do you one thing I can't quite grasp yet
is why does a marriage fail if really just one
partner seems a bit possessive?

Speaker 3 (08:09):
Can't you work through that?

Speaker 4 (08:12):
I don't know. I can't remember.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
You've kept it quiet from your own daughters. Why is that.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Just because it was in the past and it was
nothing to do with my life anymore.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
After the separation, John met Bromwin and John's future third wife,
Bronwin met John's estranged second wife de at a mutual
friend's barbecue in a coastal town.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
I was down at a barbecue in Aladallah with my
girlfriend and it was at one of her friend's houses,
and Bronman was actually there, and I got introduced to
her that night, and she was asking me all questions
about why I just spreit up with my husband. I
just remember telling her that he was possessive and just
I felt like you didn't trust you, and that wears

(09:03):
on you after a while, and you know you're not
going to do anything to creap that trust.

Speaker 4 (09:09):
I didn't know who she was and I'd never seen
her again.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
When the police contacted you, were you surprised, Yeah, yes
I was. Had you heard about Broman having been missing
for several years by then?

Speaker 5 (09:25):
Yes? I did.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
Did you have any views about her disappearance before the
police spoke to you.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
I thought, well, he won't be happy about losing another house.
I thought if something actually had.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
Happened to her, that maybe he had pushed her maybe
had been killed accidentally, Like some people can push somewhere
and then they hit their head and they didn't mean
to do it, but they've done it.

Speaker 4 (09:53):
That was the thought that went through my mind.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
Most people in Lenox who know Ian Gluis call him
something else.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
If you're scruffy, Yeah, supposedly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
He hasn't had anything to do with John for three decades,
but in the early nineteen nineties, when Scruffy was managing
large concreting jobs.

Speaker 3 (10:35):
He got to know John Well.

Speaker 6 (10:37):
They worked together, clean work, clean for organized site and
a trade fman you could respect and recommend to other people.

Speaker 3 (10:46):
It's a hard worker, yeah, hard worker.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
They shared rides to and from job sites because Scruffy
would come by the house in Sandstone Crescent to pick
John up and drive him home again, and Scruffy's wife,
Maria had become friendly with Bromwin. When I visited at
his home in Lennox, he told me he's still concreting,
helping his daughter with her nearby house. As we sat

(11:11):
on his patio, a vast concrete structure with a gurgling
water feature off to the side, he remembered John Well,
although he hasn't seen him for years.

Speaker 6 (11:23):
Good looking rooster served yet met him a playgroup. Nice family,
didn't drink much or at all, and I was on
good speaking terms of John. Did you become good mate? Well,
a small town and I was never in his pocket.

Speaker 3 (11:42):
We did a few barbecues.

Speaker 6 (11:44):
Down the lake together and the.

Speaker 3 (11:45):
Kids got on well.

Speaker 6 (11:47):
And then the more I got to know him and
started to see some parts of his character that I
thought was a bit strange, I sort of found there
was another sign to him. I'm not a psychiatrist or psychologist,
but God picked up on the vibe very quickly, very quickly,
and he didn't.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
He just thought I was scrapping the concrete.

Speaker 6 (12:09):
I noticed a side where which I didn't think it
was too good, where he's very aimble about his house.
Maybe was disordered when someone's got to OCD ordered his
when he spoke at home. The kids weren't like a
normal family, you know what I mean. They were too,
very scared because he was very sort of controlling most

(12:32):
of the time.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
You went to the house and saw that I was.

Speaker 6 (12:35):
One of the few people that actually ever went to
the house. Not many people went inside the house.

Speaker 3 (12:41):
I actually started.

Speaker 6 (12:43):
Taking him to work, and then because of the nature
of the crew.

Speaker 3 (12:48):
That I had working for me.

Speaker 6 (12:49):
I actually went to the trouble of warning them one
day when John wasn't about, and I said, be very
careful about John steel Waters run deep. I said, he
actually hates people that spoke drugs, which they all preparably did.
I was about the only one that didn't. But I said,
he'll pretend to be.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
One of you lot.

Speaker 6 (13:13):
But I said, he's down on the whole head of
things that's parted drinking drugs. He's very prutish, very controlling
with his missus. Further down the track, when things were
starting to get a little bit rocky, they were still
living as a family unit, but they were not a

(13:34):
happy couple, and he said, this is my last house Ruby.
He said he had to sell the other two when
the relationships broke down. He had to settle the relationship.
And he said, I'm not doing that again. I'm not
selling this place and flog the family home to square

(13:55):
things up.

Speaker 3 (13:57):
That's not happening. It's not on.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
How confident are you that that's what he said.

Speaker 6 (14:05):
I'm very confident that I'm not inventing the story. He
just said that he'd had to was forced to sell
the previous too, and there was no way in the
world that this one, no matter what went down, that
he was selling this one.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
Gruffy recalled seeing Bromwyn after she had separated from John.
The Byron Street townhouse she had moved into with her
girls was just a few doors down from Scruffy and
Maria's family home. The children played together after school when
Bromwyn would stop by on the way back to the townhouse.

Speaker 6 (14:41):
We lived directly partently opposite the school, and she had
to walk past our place to get down to the
service station.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
She lived at the Ennis, So there.

Speaker 6 (14:48):
In those days of town wasn't anywhere near gentrified it
is now, with all the professional buggers worming their way
in the place and millions of dollars to old houses.
She would drop in and have a coffee ordered with
Marie at the kitchen table on.

Speaker 3 (15:03):
Her way home, and still let her hearten.

Speaker 6 (15:06):
She said to Marie at the time, people have no
idea of the depth of his anger when he gets angry,
and I'd already sort of picked the vibe up warning
the blokes.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
In Maria's statement to Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor in nineteen
ninety eight, she said she would see Bromwin on a
daily basis, and they became a lot closer after the
move to Byron Street.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
These are Maria's words, it's not her voice.

Speaker 7 (15:36):
While they were living in the flat, they all appeared
to be much happier, and Bronwin didn't appear to be
suffering from the stress like when she was living with John.
Bromnin would often tell me that John was wringing her
nightly from Sydney, and she thought that he was checking
up on her. She was extremely concerned by his phone calls,
and she was very worried that he was trying to
take the children from her. She got to the stage
where she would not go out at night because of

(15:57):
John's phone calls, and she would stay at home the calls,
fearing that if she didn't, it would give him more
ammunition to attempt to take the children from her. Bronwin
also told me that John had told her that he
would do anything he had to do to keep the house,
and that he'd already lost two houses to other women
and was not about to lose this one.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
One of Bromwinn's townhouse neighbors was Alan Fisher, and like Bromwin,
he rented his place from the owner and landlady, Shirley Taylor.
When he gave a statement to the police detective Glenn
Taylor in nineteen ninety eight, Alan remembered Bromwin's care for
her children. These are his words from his sigence statement.

(16:36):
It's not his voice.

Speaker 8 (16:38):
Bromwin appeared to be a very devoted mother. I did
notice that she kept a very watchful eye on her
two children. Bromwin was not the type to leave her
kids for even five minutes. I remember on one occasion,
which was a number of weeks after Bromin had moved
into the flat, when Bromwin came to the back of
my unit. At that time, I was in the backyard.
I remember this was on the third day before she

(17:00):
went missing. I recall Bromin saying to me, I hope
you didn't hear all that commotion. I said, I didn't
hear anything. Broman said, I've just had a hell of
an argument over the phone with my husband. He's coming
down tomorrow and I'm terrified about what he might do.
I said something along the lines of, oh, is it
that bad. I then said to her that my son

(17:22):
and I were going to put some security doors on
all the units. Broumman told me that putting the security
doors up would probably help. Bromin seemed to be very
upset at the time and looked worried. It was later
that same afternoon my son came over and we put
security doors on all of the units. I remember Bromin
thanking me for the trouble, and I gave her a
key for the security door.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
The following day, Alan returned to Biown Street about three
pm and he saw a vehicle with a trailer in
the driveway. He saw Bromwin and he asked her what
was happening.

Speaker 8 (17:54):
Bromwin then told me that she was moving out. I said,
how did you go with your husband? Broman said it
was better than I thought. He's agreed to let us
move back into the family home.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
Bromwan and Allan spoke for a short time about how
she would be saving her money rather than spending it
on rent, and he offered to help her lift heavy
items onto the trailer.

Speaker 8 (18:16):
Bromwin said that she was only taking what she could
with the ute and the trailight and was going to
come back and get the rest of it at a
later time.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
Another witness, Desiree Flood lived in the adjoining townhouse next
to Bromwin's. She recalled talking to Bromman about four or
five o'clock in the afternoon, and she believed that it
was on the fateful day of Sunday, May sixteenth, just
hours before the last known sighting of Bromwin. Desiree was

(18:43):
tracked down by Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor five years later
in nineteen ninety eight, and this is what she put
in her signed statement, again her words, but not her voice.

Speaker 9 (18:55):
The reason I believe it was on the Sunday was
because we usually spent Sundays at home. On the Saturdays,
I used to visit my parents and stayed for dinner.
So I do not believe it was on the Saturday.
I remember I was at home and my husband and
I were doing some gardening and I saw Bronwyn come
out of her unit with a cup of coffee in
her hand. Bronwyn came out to where we were standing.
I started talking to Bronwyn, and I remember her saying

(19:17):
something like I'm moving back to my home and my
husband is moving to Sydney. Bronwyn seemed to be happy
with this arrangement. I started talking to Bronwyn about general things.
At one point, she said, tonight, my husband is coming down,
and if you hear a commotion, just ignore it. I
took this to mean that Bronwyn's husband was coming to
the flat. This was the first time that I had

(19:38):
ever spoken to Bronwyn on a personal basis. I recalled
that Bronwyn seemed to be a bit apprehensive about the
prospect of her husband coming over. It was within days
of this conversation with Bronwyn that I found out she
had gone missing. The landlady Shirley Taylor and myself were
quite surprised that she had left so much of her
property in the flat. The only other information I have

(19:58):
is that I remember that with In a couple of
weeks after Bronwyn moved into the flat, I spoke to her.
Bronman's car, which was a white Falcon Sedan, was blocking
the driveway and I had to ask her to move it.
I saw that Bronwyin had what appeared to be blackberuising
around her left eye. Bronwin had her sunglasses on and
looked like she had make up around her eye.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
Alan Fisher and Desiree Flood both recall being told by
Bromwin that her husband was coming back. It seems likely
that Bromwin and John talked about it on the phone
before he flew from Sydney.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
To Ballina on Sunday afternoon.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
If they had an initial plan to meet at the
townhouse on Byron Street, it probably changed to a meeting
instead at the family home on Sandstone Crescent. In the
next episode, we're going to deal with some of John's
trip back to Lennox and to the house that Sunday evening.

Speaker 9 (20:51):
From my observations of her, she was very close to
the children and protective of them. I even noticed that
she wouldn't allow the children to play outside the fence
of the unit unless she was there with them. I
find it extraordinary that Bronwin would leave her kids and
have no further contact with them.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
She had a male friend called Gary Jackson, and it
seems Bromman was hopeful they might be suited to each other.
He's known as Jacko, and he's been in indirect contact
for this podcast because he remains close to Robin Shanahan.
In nineteen ninety eight, he was interviewed by the detective
Sergeant Glen Taylor, who took a written statement from Jacko.

(21:29):
Gary Jackson explained that he had met John Winfield in
nineteen ninety two when John was building a house for
Robin Shanahan and her then husband Peter. These are his
words from that statement. It's not Jacko's voice.

Speaker 10 (21:45):
I decided to help, so I labored for John and
was his brickies laborer.

Speaker 1 (21:50):
Gary went to New Zealand for nine months after completing
the house. He returned in March nineteen ninety three, the
same month Broman separated from John.

Speaker 10 (22:01):
Within a day or two of arriving in Lennox Head,
I went to Eden's Takeaway and I saw Bronwin Winfield there.
Bronwin asked me to meet her after work, and she
asked me to meet her at the surf club.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
Broman arrived in her car the white Ford Falcon.

Speaker 10 (22:18):
She told me that she had seen a tarot reader
and he told her that some tall guy who was
a Sagittarius would return to her life. She had obviously
formed the opinion that this person was me. She told
me that she had left John not long before and
had taken a flat on her own. We sat on
the beach and spoke for about half an hour, and

(22:40):
then I went home.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
Over the next couple of days, he recalled Broman telephoned
Robin and Peter's house several times because that's where Jacko
was staying. He went to her flat and he saw
Broman and her two girls. A couple of days after
they spoke on the sand at the beach. He said
that while he was there, Bromwyn told.

Speaker 10 (23:01):
Him John had been constantly harassing her on the phone
and wanted her to go back to the house. She
said that he would ring her up and when she
terminated the call, he wouldn't hang his phone up, and
this would leave the line open. She told me he
did this on purpose, so that she could not.

Speaker 3 (23:19):
Use her phone.

Speaker 10 (23:21):
She also told me that he would often sit out
the front of her house in his car and sit
there for lengthy periods, watching the flat. She also said
that whenever she walked down the street to go to
the shops, he would follow her and was generally stalking her.

Speaker 3 (23:37):
I only saw her on.

Speaker 10 (23:38):
About three or four occasions, and during those times she
told me that she was concerned and that John was
continually harassing her on the phone, sitting near her flat
and following her.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
There is, in my view, a strong Ring of Truth
and what Bromwin is said to have told Gary Jackson
did appear to be keenly interested in Jacko. Other friends
have confirmed that she liked him. Telling him about an
apparently obsessive husband was probably not going to help her

(24:12):
prospects in forming any relationship with Jacko, yet she told
him anyway. Her need to disclose John's behavior was important.
Perhaps she wanted a partner and a protector, but Jacko
understood that things might get messy.

Speaker 10 (24:29):
I would only visit Bromin during daylight hours because I
didn't want to be implicated in their problems, and I
didn't want to be used as a pawn in any
divorce proceedings.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
He went back to New Zealand in late April, and
that's a couple of weeks before Bromwin vanished. He didn't
see or hear from her again. Here's Broman's brother, Andy
Reid and his wife Michelle, recounting conversations John.

Speaker 11 (24:56):
Was in contact with us, because I remember he rang
one time and had this cry conversation with me, which
turned out to be the fellow that ended up going
across to New Zealand.

Speaker 12 (25:07):
And Jacko was a friend of the people that a'm
the takeaway shop that Broman used to work there and
he gave her a left home.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
So because he'd given her a left.

Speaker 12 (25:15):
Home on a motorbike, all of a sudden, John's ringing me, Oh,
she's galla there and around ten and she's in another
relationship with some blake. She's on the back of a motorbike.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
He was very flustered about that.

Speaker 12 (25:25):
He didn't handle that well because Brom would a ring
me and say, oh, John's up parked up the road
Byron Street after the spotting, after John had rung and
obviously there must have been some confrontation because Brin had
rung me to say I was accusing me of have
a relationship and.

Speaker 13 (25:40):
Didn't she also say something about him turning up at
the Byron Street unit and banging on the door.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
I hope to talk to Gary Jackson directly for this podcast.
Here's Robin Shanahan again.

Speaker 14 (25:56):
We catch up for lunch once a month or so
because he's the father of my fourth child.

Speaker 4 (26:01):
Did you know that?

Speaker 15 (26:02):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (26:02):
No, I didn't know that.

Speaker 14 (26:03):
Jack has always been a very very very close friend
and he's godfather to my three daughters.

Speaker 4 (26:10):
When Peter left, JACKO sort.

Speaker 14 (26:13):
Of stepped in to support me and the girls when
my marriage Pasha. A couple of years later, I had Abby,
but Jack and we only last a couple of years,
but we still talk to each other sorow.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
I've read his evidence as well, and I know he
was just a friend to Broman and giving her a
bit of support.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
That's the impression I got. Anyway, he was he.

Speaker 14 (26:41):
Still is a nice man, and I think Roman did
find that with Jacko.

Speaker 3 (26:48):
He is Megan Reid Roman's cousin.

Speaker 5 (26:52):
I'm your bet, Jacko.

Speaker 16 (26:53):
He was just a mate.

Speaker 17 (26:54):
After she'd left John. He used to come around and
just chat to her. He liked as a friend only.
And you hear John talking about how she was seen
riding around Lennox said, in the back of a motorbike,
and he claimed it was probably him that she went
off with.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
Well, no, Gary Jackson was quickly and sensibly ruled out
by police as a person of interest in Broman's disappearance.
Kelly O'Brien is well known in the Lenox community as
a surfer and a leader of healthy pursuits for children.
She worked at Eden's Takeaway. She spoke to the detective

(27:35):
Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety eight, Kelly remembered Bromman as
bright and friendly. Kelly suggested in her signed statement back
then that Bromwin had emotional problems concerning her marriage. Kelly
added that while she had heard rumors of John having
an explosive temper, in her words, she had not witnessed anything.

Speaker 18 (28:00):
He was a very homely person and was not at
all sociable. I often saw him with his children, and
I got the opinion that he was a good father.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
But Kelly noted a change in Bromwin about a fortnight
before she disappeared.

Speaker 18 (28:14):
She would often cry over very small things and would
always be talking about herself and wrapped up in her
own little world. She would often waffle on about things,
and she appeared to be stressing out over her marriage breakdown.
I was aware that she went to see a clairvoyant
who goes by the name pen Dragon. After believing everything
the clairvoyant had told her, Bronwin thought that Jacko was
her night in Shining Armor.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
Kelly recalled the newly single mother appearing to be under
a great deal of stress.

Speaker 18 (28:42):
She wanted to do the best thing for herself and
the children, but more so for the children She was
advised that it was important that she lived in the
house because she and the children needed the space and
it would have been better in respect of a property settlement.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
When Kelly went to a birthday party on Saturday night,
May fifteen, about twenty four hours before Bromwyn disappeared, she
saw Bromwyn there.

Speaker 18 (29:05):
She was flitting from one group of people to another
and sort of laughing and giggling to herself for no reason.
She had only a couple of drinks, so it wasn't
the alcohol that made her act strangely. Bronwin was attempting
to seek everyone's attention at the party, but most people
avoided being too involved with her because everyone was sort
of fed up with hearing about her life and marriage problems.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
However, Kelly did not for a moment believe that Bromwyn
would have left voluntarily.

Speaker 18 (29:33):
I fear that she has met with some form of
foul play. She was a very dedicated mother to her
children and there is no way in this world that
she would leave without them. She also had a vested
interest in the house and was very entrenched in legal
proceedings to obtain a future for her and her children.

Speaker 3 (29:50):
Good morning, Hey, Kelly, how are you going?

Speaker 5 (29:53):
I'm well, how are you?

Speaker 19 (29:54):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (29:54):
Not bad. Kelly O'Brien is still in Linux.

Speaker 1 (29:59):
In the three decad since Brahmin disappeared, Kelly has come
to know John's daughter Jodi, and she sees John around
Lenox every now and then. I think it was Robin
who described you as a bit of a heart of
the community in terms of all the programs you run
for children and helping their physical and mental health and
so on.

Speaker 5 (30:18):
That's very generous.

Speaker 20 (30:20):
So he used to take her ex husband serving in
the mornings that I got him into the surf.

Speaker 5 (30:25):
I guess I didn't learn to seve as a youngster.
I learned sef here.

Speaker 3 (30:28):
So I just loved it. It still do.

Speaker 20 (30:30):
I moved to Lenox with my partner Max in nineteen ninety.
Goods grow and expanded. I think it's a much busier place.
It's less tight knit as a community. It's reframing its identity.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
It's become incredibly affluent now, whereas before it was a
lot more sleepy.

Speaker 5 (30:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 20 (30:48):
I have a mate and we were having a yat
the other day and he said, when I first came
to Lenox, it used to be this town where you
can't someone you go what do you do?

Speaker 5 (30:57):
Do you fish or do you serve?

Speaker 3 (31:00):
Where do you see John.

Speaker 5 (31:01):
On the beaches?

Speaker 20 (31:03):
We've done a lot of things in Lennox, my partner
and I surfing related things, events and community and quite
public things.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
I've got a sense of the way you perceive things
at that time from your statement.

Speaker 21 (31:18):
Oh look, it was really such a strange thing that
it's so accurate, and I'd forgotten about a couple of
things that I'd mentioned.

Speaker 5 (31:25):
My reflection is as a person I am now.

Speaker 21 (31:29):
I look at the statement and I think how terribly
non compassionate I was for Bronwyn, And I think, oh goodness,
where was the supports for her and some kindness around
what very challenging situations she was going through?

Speaker 20 (31:44):
Where was the network for Bronwyn emotionally upset and crying
here and there. We're not the nicest people because we're
very needy. And I look back and I think, oh, really,
where were we all? She was very committed to provide
the stability for the.

Speaker 5 (32:02):
Children and herself.

Speaker 20 (32:04):
It's unfathomable to me that it's a runoff and leave
the children. She just really adored the children. It's just
not something people do in my experience.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
I remember when we spoke briefly the other day you said,
was the fact that it was a bit awkward or
you weren't sure whether you could speak freely about it,
just because of the community ties and you're closest to
the community and the relationships with others, you felt unsure

(32:37):
about whether you could talk to me.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
How did you reconcile things?

Speaker 20 (32:43):
People go through journeys, and for me, I'm a person
in this very strong sense of justice. I work in
the field of child protection. There is such a massive
loss for the children of Bronwyn, and I would prefer
to know that they have some sense of closure about

(33:04):
what did happen to their mum. Things settled here, but
they don't actually heal for the people where it matters
most and it's hurt most. Some of the connections for
the family are still here and I'm befriends with the
people and see some of the parties that've spoken about.

Speaker 1 (33:20):
Do you have a sense of how John Winfield would
feel about you talking.

Speaker 22 (33:26):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (33:26):
He's really closed.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
Given the knowledge that people have had and the suspicions
that some of those people have had for so many years.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
Why do you think John has stayed in the community.

Speaker 20 (33:41):
Some people aren't runners. You know they've made a commitment
and you just keep going. Here's a stayer. If you're
an isolated person, you don't really care about other people
or what they think, then could.

Speaker 5 (33:53):
Just create your life and you're quite happy.

Speaker 20 (33:55):
I suppose what if someone is accused of things that
they didn't do, why should they have to run away?
And did you speak with Crystal and Jody and little
Lauren or not little Laurence?

Speaker 21 (34:06):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (34:07):
Could she be?

Speaker 5 (34:08):
Goodness? Man?

Speaker 3 (34:08):
Yeah, I've talked to and met Crystal. It's complicated, Kelly.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
She's concerned about straining her relationship with Lauren, and I
think Lauren has been loyally backing her father. I'm not
putting any pressure on her, and I haven't even asked
her for a formal interview. If Jodie wants to talk
to me, I would welcome that, of course, hopefully John.

(34:34):
I mean I don't think John will want to talk,
but I hope that he'll consider it.

Speaker 20 (34:38):
I'm going to hedge bets that no one's going to
want to upset Dad. It's all been too hard. Past
is the past, and let it sit.

Speaker 5 (34:45):
There what most people would want to know. Do you
think your dad did it or not?

Speaker 23 (34:49):
All?

Speaker 20 (34:49):
That's quite untenable to think of something so horrific.

Speaker 5 (34:53):
I suspect it's.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
Been thirty one years since Brahmin disappeared, and I get
sense you still feel uncomfortable raising or talking about it
with John, to ask him, Hey, has anyone seen Bromwin?

Speaker 3 (35:06):
Like where is she? Do you know you've got the ideas.

Speaker 20 (35:09):
I've never spoken to John about it. I never feel
very comfortable to bring that up. I probably still wouldn't.
I'm a curious person. I work in social services and
I love stories.

Speaker 5 (35:23):
I never wanted to have a mystery in my life
like that.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
I guess I'm more thinking about the truth that comes
from transparency and openness and talking about things, because in
my experience, it's the secrecy and the concealment.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 20 (35:39):
No, I agree, And I actually just said to my partner,
it's exactly like a sexual abuse scenario when people they
turn a blind eye or they just they don't believe.

Speaker 5 (35:49):
That it may have happened.

Speaker 20 (35:50):
And I think for other people in John's family or
community don't want to believe that something so iboric could
have happened, and we also, I don't want to believe
that Bronlin could have cut and brown and left the children.

Speaker 5 (36:05):
And if there's no evidence, then.

Speaker 20 (36:07):
People sort of go, well, I don't know, hands up
in the air, what do you do?

Speaker 1 (36:11):
It then just enters this kind of twilight zone and
then one decade, two decades, three decades past.

Speaker 24 (36:42):
Love is caring, sharing, knowing someone, perhaps not every intimate detail, liking, affection,
making love and being each other's best friend, tolerance and
patience for each other's bad habits, as well as praise
and credit for the good.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
Peter Shannon and the husband of Robin from whom you
heard earlier, recalled seeing Bromwin at the birthday party.

Speaker 25 (37:06):
I remember that Bronwin looked a bit lonely that night.
Bromwan didn't have a partner with her, and she was
by herself. At no stage on the Saturday night of
May fifteen, nineteen ninety three did Bromwin mention to me
that she was going to be absent from work on
the Tuesday, Nor did she mention anything about leaving the
Lennox Head area.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
Peter had a rapport with Bromman. It came from them
working together at Eden's Takeaway.

Speaker 25 (37:34):
Broman would always talk about her girls at work, and
I know that she really loved them. During my conversations
with Bronwin, she would tell me about her husband, John.
Bromwin said that John was a bit of an old woman.
She said that he was very meticulous in the house.
He hated any mess anywhere in the house. Bromwan would
tell me that John had insisted that everything in the

(37:55):
house had to be kept spotlessly clean.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
Tracy Brown, another co owner of Eden's Takeaway, was scornful
of the idea that Bromwin would have gone off to
start a new life without her children. On one occasion,
Tracy and her daughter had been to see Bromwan at
the house at Sandstone Crescent.

Speaker 26 (38:17):
Bronwyn told me a couple of days later that John
went right off about some biscuit crumbs being dropped on
the tiles.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
Tracy recalled that at some time in March or April
of nineteen ninety three.

Speaker 26 (38:30):
Bronwyn told me John had told her that there was
no way that she was going to get his house.
I vaguely recall Bromwyn mentioning something about custody for the
youngest child, Lauren. I think John was going to put
in for custody of this child. I do remember at
a later time, Bromwyn told me that she moved back

(38:52):
into the family home. Bromwn told me that she was
scared John would come back to the house and try
to get her out. I recall her saying that she
had to get a locksmith to get back into the
house as the locks have been changed. Bronwyn was an
exceptionally good mother to her children. Everything she did was

(39:12):
for her children. There is no way known, in my opinion,
that Bronwyn would ever leave those children.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
You heard Tracy recalling Bromwin's concern that John would try
to win custody of the children, or at least Lauren.
In an earlier episode. You heard Joan and that's not
her real name, recalling her talks with her friend Bromwin
at that time in nineteen ninety three, and Joan told
police about this. Here's Joan again.

Speaker 27 (39:46):
She was worried because she had overheard John talking to
his father saying it to be better if he had
the kids, because he had better chance of having the
house if he had the kids.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
It seemed that she was worried he had a strategy
to seek custody of the children, and the children were
as strategy as part of keeping the house.

Speaker 27 (40:10):
And they could call it quits.

Speaker 28 (40:12):
She was worried about it.

Speaker 3 (40:14):
It's pretty bold. Crystal was another father's child. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
Now let's go back to Ian Glewis, or Scruffy as
everyone in Lenox calls him. He told me that on
one of her visits in May nineteen ninety three, on
when shared the legal advice she had received about her
right to return to the family home in Sandstone Crescent,
she said said, the solicitor's great in Lismore's there's such

(40:45):
a thing of being forced to leave, you know, when
it's actually the marital home.

Speaker 6 (40:50):
And he was still lord of the manor even when
he wasn't there. You know, he was going down to
Sydney and working. She'd been forced to vacate the premises
and move down because of he behaved, whatever's gone down,
and because of the atomic situation and controlling in the
violence he's by his actions has forced you to he's
the one that should be gone with you look out

(41:12):
for the girls. And she gave her the advice to
change the locks and move in place.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
While he was missing. She told Maria about that.

Speaker 6 (41:20):
It was brom when he was inside of our kitchen
table talking to Maria and having coffee and stuff. She
told that I was there at the time when I
heard her say this, and I said, I don't think
that's such a good idea.

Speaker 3 (41:32):
I said, because he's going to lose it. He's going
to peek out, and he was.

Speaker 6 (41:38):
Going to not be happy.

Speaker 3 (41:41):
And that's what happened.

Speaker 6 (41:44):
And when she said that the solicitor has said the
property is yours, he's the one that has to get
out and go there with the locks, has change the
locks and take possession of it. And you know, within
the law, it might be what's right legally to you,

(42:04):
and you're pull or right in the world to go
in and take possession of it, right because he's forced
you into this position that might be perfectly right to
do and legally right to do. But they're not putting
a twenty four hour fucking security guard on your fame
door when you do it. And I said, I don't
think that's such a good idea.

Speaker 3 (42:22):
Bromwin.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
Scruffy believed Bromwin should have remained a rent paying tenant
in the townhouse on Byron Street keep the peace with John.
You see him in the surf from time to time, No,
never his favorite beach's Bowlders.

Speaker 6 (42:40):
He never shops downtown or comes to the service station
to fulfill or anything. He was like an exile from
the town, not to be seen. Never seen him with
a friend. I was the closest thing to what he
had as a friend.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
Here's the landlady, Shirley Taylor again. These are her words
from a police statement. A quarter centgo. It's not her voice.

Speaker 29 (43:02):
During the afternoon of the fourteenth of May, Bromwin came
around to my place and told me that she was
moving out of the townhouse and moving back into her
house because John had moved back to Sydney. She was
extremely happy about moving back into her house. She moved
some of her things out that day and left other
things such as clothing, crockery, and kitchen items in the townhouse.

(43:24):
I didn't see bromin again, and when she didn't come
back to get her things, I moved them into our shed.
I kept bringing her house all the time. There was
no answer and the phone would ring out.

Speaker 1 (43:36):
He is deb Bromwin's good friend and closest neighbor.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
Again.

Speaker 16 (43:41):
I was working and she was busy downtown, and we
weren't probably on each other stall steps as much as
she would have been if she was living here. But
I did go visit her down there, re caught up,
so it wasn't that long that she had been living
down there for now, either six or eight weeks later.

Speaker 28 (43:58):
I was here one.

Speaker 16 (43:59):
Friday night and Murray had broken his back. Then he'd
fallen and hit his back in the surf, and so
he was actually in the hospital. And I knew she
wasn't there, and I knew John wasn't there because he'd
left to go to Sydney. But I looked out the
window because I could hear commotion next door late at night,
and there was a trailer and a car, and I
thought someone's moving in up there, you know, I was

(44:19):
seeing them.

Speaker 4 (44:19):
Maybe he's rented the house.

Speaker 16 (44:20):
And then lo and behold about nine o'clock that night
and knock on the front door here and opened It
was from him, and she said, oh hi, And I said, oh.

Speaker 3 (44:28):
What are you doing?

Speaker 4 (44:29):
She goes, let's back into the house. I went, oh,
are you why I'm paying all this rent downtown?

Speaker 16 (44:36):
I'm entitled to be in the house, so I've been
told by solicia, I'm entitled to be in the house.
I went, what's he going to do when he finds
out you're in the house, because I just thought John's
gonna flow. I guess if he finds out she's in
the house, because that's how he was. She said, no, no, no,
She said, I've got people up and call. And I said, well,
Murray's in hospital, so you know, I haven't got any
backup if anything happens.

Speaker 21 (44:57):
You know.

Speaker 16 (44:58):
She came in and we were chatting, and I do
remember we had a glass of wine. We just had
a general chit chat talking about getting locks changed on
the house, or having the locks change.

Speaker 3 (45:08):
She hadn't talked to at least Flight, our neighbor. Yeah,
they had a spare key because she couldn't get in.
She couldn't get in. That's right. Roman's brother Andy Reid
has something to say about this. She got to the
house and she wrung me in. She's gone.

Speaker 12 (45:25):
The bastards changed the locks. It's changed the locks. I
can't get him. My key doesn't work. I said to her,
we'll get a locksmith, get into the house, get the
locks changed, get your own key, and you're in.

Speaker 16 (45:40):
She made a phone call on my phone, and I
remember the phone used to be on the wall in
the kitchen back then we had the difference set up.
It might have been a locksmith because it was quite late,
but unless it was a twenty four hour one which
had it for a bit long.

Speaker 3 (45:51):
As she left.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
Romman's other neighbor, Heather Hardgrave, and her husband Lloyd, remembered
seeing Bromwin. It must have been on the friday. They
gave written statements to police in September nineteen ninety eight.
Heather and Lloyd have died. These are their words, it's
not their voices. Lloyd refers to his wife by her

(46:14):
preferred name, Chris.

Speaker 13 (46:17):
She called out to me from our yard on her
side of the house. I went downstairs to her and
she was looking along the windows of her place. When
I approached Bromwin, she asked me if I had a key,
and I told her I didn't. She said that she
couldn't get into the house because John had changed all
the locks.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
Bromwin had very little cash.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
She confided to her neighbor that John had closed her
credit card.

Speaker 13 (46:44):
She was very upset and crying, and said that John
had threatened to take the children from her, the same
as he had done to his first wife and taken
Jody from her.

Speaker 15 (46:55):
After my wife and Bronwyn had been speaking for a
short time, came over to join them. Bronman inquired from
Chris and I if we had a key to her home.
Bronman said that she was unable to get into the
house and she appeared to be very upset at the time.
It was at this time that Bronman told Chris and

(47:16):
I that Jonathan Winfield had threatened that he was going
to take the children from her.

Speaker 13 (47:23):
Bronwin then left and went back around the other side
of the house, and I didn't see her again.

Speaker 15 (47:29):
It was not long after this that the locksmith arrived,
and I'm aware that Bronman moved back into the house.

Speaker 13 (47:36):
Later that night, I noticed lights on inside the house
and I assumed that she had gained entry into the house.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
Bromwin's half sister, Kim Marshall, remembers speaking to her just
two days before she disappeared. Hi, Kim, how right We
were talking about the Friday evening, the fourteenth of May.

Speaker 3 (48:00):
She was moving back into Sandstone Crescent.

Speaker 30 (48:03):
In my last phone call with Bromwin, I was actually
very surprised to hear her report to me of her
excitement that she had actually gained entry. Oh, you're back
in the house, and Roman goes, yes, yes, I'm so excited.

Speaker 4 (48:21):
I'm so pleased. I've had been speaking to Andrew. I've
been to the lawyer.

Speaker 30 (48:27):
Andrew explained to me that I needed to get the
locksmith and gain inter to the house and do that
nine tenths of the law thing. And so I've done
this because Jonathan's away working in Sydney, and I thought
it was the right moment for me to actually get

(48:48):
back into the house where I can resettle the girls
and myself and get things back to normal. I've got
the trailer here, I'm unloading everything. I've got to work tomorrow.
We're here, We're safe. I'm actually looking in the window
now and I can see Debbie and Murray across from
the house. She gave me the understanding that she felt

(49:15):
very strong, very empowered, very capable, and that this was
the right way forward. Everything's fine. And I was like, oh, okay,
so when I come up, I'll be coming to actually
stay with you there, and she goes yes, yes, And
the lawyer's doing everything and everything's going to be wrong.
So it was like she was taking her territory back

(49:36):
or making her mark to actually say, well, I'm in
the house. You're not going to get me back out
because I'm in it now, so you stay away. And
I was just totally taken aback and I just left
the phone call saying what you've done is that actually
a safe thing to do?

Speaker 4 (49:52):
And I'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 3 (49:54):
When did your next talk to her?

Speaker 4 (49:57):
Never got to talk to her again.

Speaker 22 (49:58):
That was it.

Speaker 4 (50:00):
That was the last time I actually spoke to her.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
Here's some further detail from Bromwin's friend Joan and how
did you learn that she had moved back into the
family house at Sandstone Crescent.

Speaker 27 (50:14):
She rang me on the Sunday morning asked if I
could mind her kids and I said I couldn't because
one of mine was sick. And she said that she
was back in the house And I said when did
you move back in? And she said Friday, But Saturday
night was the first night I spent that And I said,

(50:38):
how does John feel about that? She said he wasn't
happy to start with buddies all right now? She had
no plans to move away, and she never mentioned going
anywhere she was going to go to work. It's almost
want to meet mind the kids. No mention of going away.

Speaker 3 (50:58):
That was the Sunday.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
You say in your statement in nineteen ninety eight. She
also told me that John had said to her that
if she bad mouthed him around Lennox Head that.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
He would kill her. And it's a pretty powerful allegation.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
And you put that statement in five years after Bromin's disappearance.

Speaker 22 (51:24):
And it was not somethingly forgetting. Is that if someone
tells you that, I guess that's why she had disappeared.
I stride by felt something had happened to her. She said,
you'd have to teach me how to made the grass.
And it's the last time I spoke to her. So

(51:47):
she had no intentions of just up and leaving.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
Is deb again.

Speaker 16 (51:56):
I didn't see a lot of her on the Saturday
because she was moving from down there to hear I
was actually Murray was coming out of hospital that day,
so I'd probably gone into the hospital and pick him up,
and you know I had little kids.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
You said that you asked her, what're you going to
do when he finds out? Or was that effect you
were a bit concerned about what his reaction would be.

Speaker 5 (52:17):
Is that right?

Speaker 16 (52:18):
Well, I was worried for her because I thought, well,
if John finds out she's in the house, he's going
to basically lose his you know what, because his house
was his shrine. She had to move out, but it
was her house too, Yes, exactly. And that's what she
got legal advice, you see. And I think it was
about what she was entitled to, and that's where I
think she got the advice from to move back in.

(52:40):
And then when I had that conversation, I said, what
are you doing. I've got every right to be here.
I've got legal advice I can appa should be in
the house. And that's what I'm doing. I can't afford
to pay rent down here, and you know John's not here,
I'm moving back in. At the time, I just thought
he's just going to give her such a hard time,
really make it difficult for her.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
But in your mind you saw it possible, violets, Hello,
oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 22 (53:03):
Would you agree with that?

Speaker 3 (53:05):
He would not have let her come back to that house. No,
that's right. He wouldn't have been happy about it. No,
I have no evidence solvingim being violent. His house was
his shrine. He loved that house. That was him.

Speaker 16 (53:16):
In conversations I'd had with Bromwin prior to her moving out,
when I used to say to her, look, you know
you should just leave him and you're entitled to anything,
and I remember her saying this. She said, I'll never
be able to move out because he won't let me
have anything and I'll be left destitute. I said, no,

(53:37):
but you've got rights, you know. No, no, no, you
don't know what he's like, is what she said. This
is before that weekend. I knew it for five years
before she went missing, because I used to say to her,
he's that miserable.

Speaker 28 (53:48):
You know, he's such an ahole.

Speaker 3 (53:50):
Why don't you just leave him?

Speaker 28 (53:51):
And she said, I can't, He'll leave me with nothing.

Speaker 16 (53:55):
Now he'd been married three times too, so he had
his first wife, then a second one, and then was
the third. And then when she did leave unless what,
I was surprised. I thought, oh well, and then I thought, no,
good on your girl. You need to be happy, and
you know you're only young.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
The chronology is really interesting because you see Roman Friday evening. Yes,
she says, I'm moving back in and I'm just going
to assert my rights. Yes, because this is possibly half
my Yes, yes, she moves back in. You've got things
to do on Saturday.

Speaker 24 (54:29):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (54:30):
Did you see her Sunday? I did.

Speaker 16 (54:33):
The last conversation I had with her was on that Sunday.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
In Sydney.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
That same afternoon, John abruptly changed his own plans to
continue working on a house in the Shire. He went
to Sydney Airport on Sunday and checked in for a
one way flight to Ballina. It's a twenty minute drive
from the regional airport to the house at Sandstone Crescent,
and the.

Speaker 16 (54:57):
Sunday she came down to see me and asked me
could I look after the kids for a few hours
because she had to work.

Speaker 3 (55:02):
I said yeah, sure, you know.

Speaker 16 (55:04):
So the kids basically played between my place and her place,
and then she got home at about I reckon it
was either beef between five and her past that afternoon
Sunday afternoon, and I was standing out the front and
she came. She said, thanks for having the kids.

Speaker 3 (55:18):
Were they okay?

Speaker 16 (55:19):
Finally just been playing. We were chatting and I remember saying, so,
what's on this week for you? And she said, oh, well,
I'm still moving Because she was still between moving. I'll
still be moving in tomorrow and the kids will be
going to school. I've got to get them home and
get them bathed and fed and ready for school tomorrow.
And I said, okay, well I'm doing the same, you know,
because my kids will be going to school as well.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
And I said, I'll catch you later.

Speaker 4 (55:42):
And that was the last time I spoke to her,
and you never saw her again, never after that.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
A neighbor friend, Virginia Bevis, still feels uncomfortable about her
small part in Bromwin's sudden return to live in the
house at Sandstone Crescent.

Speaker 3 (55:59):
Magnificent stretch of coastline. It is gorgeous.

Speaker 28 (56:03):
We made the decision we didn't want to go Nearbyron
and not just like Lennox.

Speaker 4 (56:08):
Do you might want to talk to Lee?

Speaker 28 (56:10):
He's just inside. Do you want me to call him out?

Speaker 23 (56:15):
Yeah?

Speaker 28 (56:15):
Any daughter? He thought she was lovely.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
Virginia and Lee and their children lived very close to
Bromin and John's house on Sandstone Crescent. They talked to
her regularly. One of their daughters used to babysit Bromwin's girls.
The children would worry about making any mess in the
house and upsetting John. A lot of people have talked

(56:39):
to me about his obsession with house.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
Does that ring a bell?

Speaker 28 (56:45):
Well, he locked the kids in the carriage while he
was going surfing.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
How did we know that?

Speaker 28 (56:50):
Because that's what happened when my daughter and her friend
went down to Just a Crystal. They walked down I'll
tell you wanted to drink of water and Crystal said
I we're not allowed in the house while he's not here.
And she says, I'm getting a drink or order and
walked in. The next thing I heard screaming, I've looked
out the window upstairs and they're running back. He'd come

(57:13):
home and caught him and kicked him out. I just
thought it was strange looking the kids in the garage
and not letting them in the house.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
To go surfing.

Speaker 28 (57:24):
And I thought they were too young.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
What do you think would be different if someone with
Roman circumstances disappeared like that Today, it'll.

Speaker 28 (57:34):
Be able to social media instantly. I think the police
did have better investigative skills.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
Did you form an impression about how determined or not
she was to remain separated from him?

Speaker 15 (57:49):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (57:49):
Yeah, she was stone separated. You could see the trouble.
Oh god, how did you distinguish it? What did you say? Now?
Just a voice?

Speaker 28 (57:59):
And when she started confiding and things like that, she
was definitely troubled. It was a bad relationship.

Speaker 3 (58:09):
Did you still see them around them?

Speaker 28 (58:12):
If I did, i'd cross the road. Oh yeah, definitely.
But he booted her out the house and then pissed
off the Sydney.

Speaker 15 (58:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 19 (58:23):
I was wondering, why did she end up leaving the
house because they kicked her out? And is that something
you remember or something she said to me? In their
weeks in the townhouse.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
According to Virginia, Ronwin and her two girls had struggled
to stay warm.

Speaker 28 (58:41):
I remember telling me how cold it was down there,
and the two kids in her were alway just huddled.

Speaker 3 (58:47):
She was struggling.

Speaker 28 (58:50):
It was just certain things. She said, something about that's
all they could afford and off freezing, and he was
abusive and she was scared of him. Just when I said,
smooth back in the house. He's in Sydney. It was
my buddy idea.

Speaker 5 (59:07):
You won't like it.

Speaker 3 (59:09):
Oh, you built it together. It's half hers. Yeah, not
how he saw.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
If it makes you feel any less responsible. Her solicitor
also gave her that advice, and so did her brother,
so you shouldn't have to bear that burden. For many years,
neither Virginia nor Lee had any contact with police investigating
Bronwin's disappearance, but in two thousand and nine a statement

(59:36):
was taken. I scrolled through it on my laptop while
we sit at the front of her house and Lee
remains inside. So you don't become a witness until you
give this statement. Yeah, and that's two thousand and nine.

Speaker 3 (59:50):
Do you know why that is?

Speaker 5 (59:51):
No?

Speaker 28 (59:51):
I actually asked him. They said, we have the diary,
and I said, well, why didn't it It had my
address in it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
Why didn't you ever come and see me?

Speaker 28 (01:00:04):
I saw her the night before she went missing. My
phone numbers written there. It actually said Saturday night Virginia
phone number, etc. And you never contacted me. I just
think there's a lot of incompetence. The place need to
pick the game up the detectives.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
That's embarrassing.

Speaker 28 (01:00:22):
Yeah, that was hard to find anyway. We never changed
phone numbers or anything, and it took them twenty years
to find me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Incredible, You say Robin told me about Jonathan being abusive
towards her.

Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
Yes, I interpreted from that that Jonathan had been physically
violent to her. Yes, had hit her and been very
abusive feeling at her.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
She said to me words the effect of, you don't
know him, he's been abusive before, and he scares me.

Speaker 31 (01:00:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 28 (01:00:56):
That was at Eden's, at in front of Aiden's. I
was sitting down talking.

Speaker 3 (01:01:02):
I think I haven't told her to get a locksmith,
which she did.

Speaker 28 (01:01:06):
She couldn't get in because he changed the locks. I
can remember even saying the locksmith parked out the front
of their place. Because I'd walk from Sandstone around the
corner at the Granite Street every day. I was on
a builder.

Speaker 3 (01:01:20):
So it's their lost. Shortly before meeting Virginia, one of
Bromwin's relatives tracked down some video of her. Hello, Hello,
is that Megan? Do you have any video or audio
of Bromwin.

Speaker 23 (01:01:37):
There was a film shown at the Colonial Inquest that
belonged to the neighbor and the early other one, Channel
ten made a documentary called Sometimes I Get Frightened, and
that was a story of my uncle Phillip with a transplant.
That Bromwin was there and she is interviewed and it
shows her with her father's heartbreaking you. And John's actually

(01:01:59):
in that too. My brother had it transferred onto GISK
for Crystal.

Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
Maybe I just want to say the video with Bronwin
in it, that.

Speaker 20 (01:02:10):
Was the first time I watched it was yesterday when
my grandfather sent it to me, and I was like, oh,
my goodness, like I've never seen a video of her
before or heard her voice.

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
It was filmed in nineteen eighty six when Bronwyn and
John were visiting her father Philip, he had just received
a liver transplant. Bronwyn tenderly comforts her dad at his bedside,
while John stands close.

Speaker 28 (01:02:36):
She really cared for him, and she really cared for
those she loved.

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
She whispers something in his ear.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
Later, she responds to a question from the documentary's reporter
Des McWilliam.

Speaker 32 (01:02:50):
On the third day, Philip Reid still hasn't regained full consciousness.

Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
He remains critical.

Speaker 32 (01:02:56):
Bronwin, forever optimistic, looks for signs of progress, and tries
to reinforce her father's own will to live.

Speaker 3 (01:03:04):
But his system is tiring and breaking down, and some
days are.

Speaker 28 (01:03:09):
Better than others.

Speaker 33 (01:03:10):
You know, if I think he's responding, sometimes you'll blink
or wink or move his head. If I think he's responding,
it makes me.

Speaker 28 (01:03:17):
Feel a lot better.

Speaker 33 (01:03:19):
But all I ever telling him is that he's going
to get better, the sort of things that he'd wanted.
You know that he's leaves functioning, his kidneys are fine,
and you know, and that his heart's still it's strong,
and that he's.

Speaker 16 (01:03:31):
Going to be your eye.

Speaker 32 (01:03:33):
Two weeks now since the second transplant, and Philip continues
to hang on to life with the frailess thread.

Speaker 3 (01:03:40):
He's a good bloke, isn't he.

Speaker 28 (01:03:42):
Here's the best, the best, Oh that came in sits
same hair everything.

Speaker 3 (01:03:52):
Yeah, her dad, he died soon after that. She had
a pretty tough life. I think I think she did.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
She still wondered what she'd be doing now if the
separation and divorce had gone smoothly.

Speaker 28 (01:04:07):
Yeah, greedy bastard. He didn't give that damn house up.
She was genuinely scared. How could she have an accident
not be reported? And if she left him, why didn't
she take the kids? At the very loose crystal, I'll
get her close.

Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
Yeah, it would be great to meet your husband. Yeah welcome, Yeah, okay,
good to see her.

Speaker 28 (01:04:35):
It's a bad prong when I just saw a video
of her.

Speaker 3 (01:04:38):
Ah, is this what this is about?

Speaker 12 (01:04:40):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:04:43):
I did not know what you're here.

Speaker 31 (01:04:44):
Yeah, our oldest daughter was a babysitter for her the
night before she went missing. She was a lovely lady.
She'd loved it kids.

Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
Did you know him? Well, no, not really.

Speaker 31 (01:05:05):
I made him a few times and I was sort
of downing, slightly aloof and arrogant.

Speaker 3 (01:05:11):
That's it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
What do you think about the proposition that she left
and started the new life with not a chance, not
a chance?

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
The cicadas start up?

Speaker 15 (01:05:24):
Are they?

Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
What were the cicadas?

Speaker 28 (01:05:28):
Those bugs, those insects?

Speaker 34 (01:05:33):
And how old is he now?

Speaker 3 (01:05:35):
Well, he would be about seventy.

Speaker 34 (01:05:38):
Seventy thirty one years ago, yesterday, thirty one years ago. Incredible,
It was just so obvious. When did you form that
view years ago when it first happened. She completely disappear

(01:06:00):
and she left the kids? Come on, don't conslp more intelligence?

Speaker 31 (01:06:05):
Do you can, right, old man, not leave the kids doing?

Speaker 3 (01:06:15):
What do you think the chances are? It's hard to say.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
The police wanted to charge him with murder, but the
lawyers working for the DPP.

Speaker 3 (01:06:29):
They said, well, we don't think there's enough evidence to
get a conviction and what if enough the current a
said he should have been charged with murder. So if
you can find some more evidence, or if a new.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
DPP says, you know what, a jury listening to all
this evidence, even though it's circumstantial, might well convict him.
I drove out of Lennox and cuested the hill between
en Clave and the busy M one Highway. It's a
three hour drive back across the border into Queensland and

(01:07:08):
up to Brisbane.

Speaker 5 (01:07:10):
Calling hello.

Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
It was pretty interesting talking to Virginia and housband Lee
this afternoon.

Speaker 35 (01:07:23):
What they told me was they didn't talk to police
or give a statement to police until two thousand and nine,
even though they spoke to Broman the night before she disappeared, right.

Speaker 21 (01:07:35):
Which is insane that they weren't talk to that would
have been so feltful, so much.

Speaker 5 (01:07:42):
Earlier on.

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
Roman confided that she was very fearful of John. That's
so vital.

Speaker 35 (01:07:50):
The coroner didn't have that evidence and therefore the DPV
didn't have that evidence when the case was rejected.

Speaker 5 (01:07:57):
Yeah, have changed things, but.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
MinC Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas.

Speaker 3 (01:08:20):
As a podcast production for the Australian.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
If anyone has information which may help solve this cold case,
please contact me confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian
dot com dot au. You can read more about this
case and see a range of photographs and other artwork
at the website Bronwyn podcast dot com. Our subscribers and

(01:08:48):
registered users here episodes first. The production and editorial team
for bromwin includes Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget,
Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns, Liam Mendez, Sean Callen
and Matthew Condon and David Murray. Audio production for this

(01:09:08):
podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and original theme music
by Slade Gibson. We have been assisted by Madison Walsh,
a relation of bromin Winfield.

Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
We can only do this kind of journalism.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
With the support of our subscribers and our major sponsors
like Harvey Norman. For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps,
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Shandy's Legacy and The Night Driver, go to The

Speaker 3 (01:09:44):
Australian dot com, dot au and subscribe