Episode 32: Finally, A Finding

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course
language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. On the

(00:42):
morning of Good Friday, April eighteen, twenty twenty five, one
week before the release two subscribers of this episode number
thirty two in the Bromwin series. I flew to Sydney
and went straight to Andy and Michelle's house in the Shire.
This was my third visit to their home in a
place that Andy proudly refers to as God's Country. We've

(01:06):
caught up multiple times elsewhere Good I I. We spoke
about a range of things. The evidence from the inquest
was on Andy's mind because he was rehearing it in
these in Quest episodes. He cannot understand why so much
evidence went missing. Here is one example. Andy had numerous

(01:31):
conversations with the detective Graham discin back in nineteen ninety three,
but police running sheets documenting the concerns that Andy was
raising with Balano detectives in nineteen ninety three appear to
be missing from the record. However, a formal document which
purports to particularize a conversation between Bromwin's cousin Megan Reid

(01:55):
and Graham Discin in nineteen ninety three has survived and
forms part of the evidentiary record. It's the document that
paints John in a positive light while depicting Bromwin as
an unstable fantasist. Meghan emphatically denies saying the things attributed
to her in that document. Meanwhile, other relevant evidence appears

(02:20):
to have completely disappeared. Where is all the information and
the running shoots path?

Speaker 2 (02:27):
The stuff's missing? Will we ever know the truth?

Speaker 1 (02:31):
During the inquest they were still getting documents Bromman's letters.
That stuff was still being made available at a late
stage of the actual five days of hearings, and this
was material that Discin had originally received from John.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Nothing adds up.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
This is going to be the last episode for some weeks.
Andy and Michelle have headed overseas for a long planned
holiday and there's a good prospect will catch up somewhere,
perhaps in the highlands of Scotland. At the end of
this episode, my very good friend and colleague Matt Condon
will share news about his upcoming podcast series called The

(03:14):
Gangster's Ghost. It will start coming out in May twenty
twenty five, when the weekly production of the Bromwin series
is on pause or a couple of months. What we'll
do then is have a season break. When you get back,
you're expecting to be able to sit down with senior police.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yep, yes, I'm hoping to be able to go and
have a do.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
Briefing with them, find out where we're at.

Speaker 5 (03:46):
That sounds promising.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
We reflected on the fact that fourteen months earlier, in
the same comfortable chairs in their lounge room, we recorded
our first interviews together. But back then we are not
aware of the evidence of Judy Singh, of the potential
significance of Illawong, the glaring inconsistencies in John's versions, and

(04:10):
the gaping holes in investigations by police. I didn't think
we'd still be talking about this and planning further episodes
more than a year later.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
No, it's incredible, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
It's not tangible, but to me, it feels as if
there's been some change, potentially on the verge.

Speaker 5 (04:32):
Of a breakthrough.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Feels like it, doesn't it.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
There are several more leads that I want to develop
in the podcast, and there's also George Radmore's cold case
review and further evidence that came to light through that.
It is also important, in my view to investigate and
report in this podcast how the then lawyers in the
Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions in Lismore and

(04:59):
then it is in the head office in Sydney can
have come to the view that there was not enough evidence.
That was a view contrary to the unequivocal finding of
the then Deputy State Coroner Karl Milvanovitch, and you'll hear
his detailed reasons near the end of this episode. Karl's

(05:20):
judgment looks right, and the evidence in our view has
always been damning in relation to just one person.

Speaker 5 (05:28):
But we can do that when you get back.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Sounds like a plan.

Speaker 5 (05:33):
That's good.

Speaker 6 (05:35):
The whole object of this is finding the truth, the
truth about what happened to Brohman, whatever that may be.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
Now, the fact that it's sort of.

Speaker 7 (05:49):
Narrowed itself down a path where it doesn't look like
anything else could have happened except for one thing, well,
that's just the way it is.

Speaker 4 (06:02):
Now.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
Let's return to the inquest. It's day four. Matt Fordham
is revisiting the written statement of Jody's mother, Jennifer Mason
and how she had told police that John left the
two girls with Jennifer's mother in law, Joan Mason, and
that when John returned, he asked Jennifer to look after
them for a fortnight.

Speaker 5 (06:24):
Matt Fordham asked, Jody.

Speaker 8 (06:27):
Does it surprise you that someone with the parenting schools
of your father would not plan ahead for the childcare?

Speaker 9 (06:33):
Well, yes, you know you would normally plan ahead, but
I mean didn't have time really, he just came back.

Speaker 8 (06:39):
So, ma'am, I'll read out some further parts of your
mother's statement.

Speaker 10 (06:45):
I came home one day from shopping in nineteen ninety
three and my mother in law, Brad's mother, said, you've
got two visitors out in the backyard. Both of the
children were dressed in pajamas. Joan told me that John
Winfield had turned up about an hour earlier and asked
if he could leave the kids at my house. There
were no clothes for the children that John brought. It

(07:07):
was about an hour after that when John arrived. I
said to him something like what's going on? John said,
I've got a big job on and nobody to look
after the kids. Can you look after them? For about
two weeks I'll pay you. I said, where's Bromwind. John
said she's gone off with a boyfriend. I said, I

(07:28):
can't look after them, You'll have to find someone else.
I'm in the process of packing and moving. I remember
thinking at the time it was strange he hadn't brought
any clothing for the children. It wasn't his normal character.
He usually liked to be organized. I found out later
through Jody that Bromward had gone missing from Lennox Head.

Speaker 8 (07:49):
Ma'am, do you know apart from the registration of the car,
do you know anywhere else that Jonathan may have gone
and the hours around lunchtime on that day?

Speaker 9 (07:58):
No, I don't.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Matt Fordham then asked Jody about her hairdressing apprenticeship. As
part of her training, she also went to a technical college,
and Jody said that her one day a week at
college would have been each Monday or Wednesday. The police
officer reminded Jody that she did not remember the family
dog being inside the car. When, according to Jody, her

(08:23):
father arrived with the two girls at the salon on
Monday morning, it seemed that he was doubting whether John
had even gone to the salon.

Speaker 8 (08:33):
Ma'am but do you recall there was some journals inside
the car, Is that correct?

Speaker 9 (08:38):
Yep, in the back.

Speaker 8 (08:40):
Whereabouts in the back were they?

Speaker 9 (08:42):
I don't know, And I was just talking to Dad
before I went back in. The boot was open and
he was getting something out for the kids. I don't
know what, but that's when he picked it up out
of the boot. I don't even know if I saw
what side of the boot, but he sort of picked
it up and went to show me. But I knew
I was getting called back inside, so I will not called.
But I knew I was getting looked at and needed

(09:03):
to be back inside, so I didn't have time to
go into anything with it.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
Here for the first time, John's daughter was introducing evidence
of having seen inside the car's boot on the Monday morning.
She remembered this at the inquest during the lunch adjournment.

Speaker 9 (09:21):
After just talking to Dad.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
Now we have speculated that Bromwin's body was in the boot.
Matt Fordham's earlier questions about John's unknown movements after he
had dropped the two girls off at the home of
his ex wife were connected to a similar theory that
Bromwin's body was in the boot of the ford Falcon,
but neither the police officer nor Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor

(09:48):
knew then of the two paws of concrete at the
building site in Illawan where John had been working. It
only became known because we asked for building department documents
from the local southerland Shire Council.

Speaker 8 (10:03):
Did you see anything else inside the boot?

Speaker 9 (10:06):
No, not that I remember.

Speaker 8 (10:08):
And these journals that you saw, could you describe them
to us?

Speaker 9 (10:13):
It was just like a force cap page with no
front on it, and it just was pages of her writing.
I know her writing, and it was her writing and
just on a notebook sort of thing.

Speaker 8 (10:23):
Did you see them inside the boot and pick them
up or did your father pick them up and hand
them to you?

Speaker 9 (10:29):
From memory, I seem to seem sort of pulling them
out like, but I don't really I don't really.

Speaker 8 (10:35):
Remember, I'm not And did he hand them to you?

Speaker 9 (10:38):
No, I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
Matt Fordham asked a flurry of questions. Did she read
the pages, did her father comment to her about them?
Did she get a look at them? Jody answered no.

Speaker 8 (10:52):
You see, ma'am, today is the first time that you've
either told the police or his worship about seeing those
journals at the back of the car that day, isn't it.

Speaker 9 (11:01):
I don't think so. I'm sure I told Detective Taylor
about that when he spoke to me.

Speaker 8 (11:06):
You'd agree with me that there's absolutely no reference in
your statement too.

Speaker 9 (11:10):
No, it's not in there. I know it's not in there.
I don't know why it wasn't written in my statement,
but I do sort of. I'm positive. I remember talking
to Detective Taylor and Detective Temby about it, and he
said something to the words of, yeah, well, we don't
know where that is now, like it disappeared, so and
I'm pretty confident and Detective Temby was there, so we
just left it at that.

Speaker 8 (11:32):
Why did you tell Detective Temby in Detective Taylor about.

Speaker 9 (11:35):
That, because he asked me if i'd seen into the
boot that day and what was in there, and that's
how the notebook came up.

Speaker 8 (11:43):
In your discussions with your father over the years, have
you learnt the relevance of those documents?

Speaker 11 (11:49):
No?

Speaker 9 (11:49):
I haven't.

Speaker 8 (11:49):
Actually, is there any reason why you didn't indicate it
to Detective Discan.

Speaker 9 (11:55):
Detective disc In, I only spoke to Detective Discan for
about five minutes, and he asked me, nothing like that.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
Jody was then asked again about how her father connected
with Rebecca Maguire to visit the house on Sunday evening.
Jody said that she had not put them in touch.
She said John had not talked to her about who
would be suitable to accompany him to Sandstone Crescent. Jody
seemed perplexed.

Speaker 9 (12:23):
She didn't have the phone on. I don't think Matt.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
Fordham went back to Broman's writings.

Speaker 8 (12:29):
You'd agree that a journal would be some indication as
to a state of mind at the time she went missing,
wouldn't it.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah?

Speaker 8 (12:37):
And you'd agree with me that if the Reeds were
asking you about what had happened to Bronwin, you'd be
trying to provide them with all the information that you could,
wouldn't you.

Speaker 9 (12:47):
I would assume.

Speaker 8 (12:48):
So you certainly wouldn't be trying to hide anything, would you.

Speaker 11 (12:53):
No?

Speaker 8 (12:54):
And if you accept that your father at no stage
even told the Reeds about the existence of the journal,
doesn't that strike you as being strange?

Speaker 9 (13:02):
Maybe? But my dad's a very private person.

Speaker 8 (13:05):
So, ma'am, how many nights did the children and your
father stay with you at your flat? I don't recall,
where did the family dog stay.

Speaker 9 (13:15):
I don't know. I didn't have the dog with me,
so I didn't know where the.

Speaker 8 (13:18):
Dog was, ma'am. After the months have passed and Bronwin
hasn't returned, what happened to the jewelry that she owned?

Speaker 9 (13:26):
I never really asked. I never I thought she would
have had it with her until the other day when
I saw the box.

Speaker 8 (13:33):
She would have had earrings, she would have had necklaces,
she would have had bangles, She would have had a
range of jewelry, wouldn't she Probably Do you know what
happened to that?

Speaker 9 (13:43):
No, I don't.

Speaker 8 (13:45):
When you returned to the house at lanticx Head, at
some stage, did you ever inquire of your dad as
to what happened to the things that Bronwin owned.

Speaker 9 (13:53):
I think at some stage I may have asked where
the clothes, where her clothes were or something, because I mean,
she you know, she didn't take much with her or whatever,
so I think he put them in a bag and
they were kept in the house for her. But I'm
not certain on that either.

Speaker 8 (14:09):
To your knowledge, does your father still have any of
the jewelry that braun Went owned.

Speaker 9 (14:14):
Well, I don't know. I've never asked him.

Speaker 8 (14:16):
Were you told anything about a medicare check by your father?

Speaker 9 (14:20):
I don't remember anything about the medicare.

Speaker 8 (14:22):
Check now, ma'am. In the weeks that your father has
arrived down in Sydney after the sixteenth of May, did
you have any discussions with him about taking legal action
to protect his interests in the house.

Speaker 9 (14:33):
Sorry, say that again.

Speaker 5 (14:36):
Matt Fordham asked his question again.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
Logically, if Bromin was alive and she had gone away
for a few days or a couple of weeks, she
would return and then the contest over the.

Speaker 5 (14:48):
House would be on again.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
John would surely talk to Jody about his plans to
counter Broman's determination to walk away from the failed marriage
with a part of their asset pul which was rightfully hers.

Speaker 9 (15:02):
No, I never talked to him about the house.

Speaker 8 (15:04):
You've never discussed the ownership of the house with your father, No,
not at all.

Speaker 9 (15:08):
I know nothing about the legal part of any of
their stuff, both of them. My dad would never have
told me information like that, and Bronwin would never have
got me involved in.

Speaker 8 (15:17):
Stuff like that. Do you think your father was concerned
about Bronwin running off with the children?

Speaker 12 (15:23):
No?

Speaker 9 (15:24):
Why is that well, there was never any reason for
her to run off with them.

Speaker 8 (15:29):
Looking back on it now, don't you think that it's
strange the course of events that followed Bronlin's disappearance.

Speaker 9 (15:35):
At the time, I didn't question it because, yes, my age,
if it happened now and the age I am, yes,
I would have had so many questions like everybody else does.
But at the time I didn't because I just I
just didn't.

Speaker 8 (15:48):
Ma'am. Do you have any idea what may have happened
to Bronwin?

Speaker 9 (15:52):
No, I don't.

Speaker 8 (15:53):
You would have become quite close to Bronwin in the
years that you stayed with it, is that correct?

Speaker 13 (15:58):
Yes?

Speaker 9 (15:58):
I did.

Speaker 8 (16:00):
She was very much a mother figure to you, wasn't she. Yeah,
And you'd agree with me that any sightings of Bronin
would be something that you would be keen of the
police to follow up very quickly an attempt to locate her.

Speaker 9 (16:13):
Definitely, And you'd agree with me that.

Speaker 8 (16:16):
If Bronin was located, then it would put everybody's mind
to rest, wouldn't it.

Speaker 9 (16:22):
Definitely.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
Matt Fordham summarized Jody's actions earlier in the week, when
she indicated that she had received information on Monday morning
from a woman Kayleen, who had purportedly told Jody that
another woman, Joanne, may have seen Bromwin.

Speaker 9 (16:38):
In Nimben out Nimbenweh was what she told me out Nimbenweh.

Speaker 8 (16:44):
And do you agree with me that when the officer
in charge and I asked you some questions in relation
to who Joanne was and who the caller was, you
said words to the effect that you didn't want to
ask too many questions because you were scared that you
would scare her off.

Speaker 9 (17:00):
Well, I got what I needed to get out of her,
and I didn't want to ask her last name. I had, however,
got Joanne's name and that she was married to Craig
and that was Mark Guthrie's brother. I thought that's all
I needed. And after I asked her if she has
told the police this information, she said yes. I thought, well,
it would be in the statements. They can find her
name through that. That's why I didn't push for anything else.

Speaker 8 (17:21):
But you'd agree with me that the information you're hearing
on Monday morning, it's a fairly extraordinary thing for people
to ring you up and say that they may have
seen her.

Speaker 9 (17:30):
Well, yes, especially being on the morning of it. But
I'm just I'm just relaying the information that I have.
I mean, what was I going to do, not turn
up and say it. I had to say what happened.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
The police officer pointed out that Jody had not inquired
of Kayleen's surname, nor had Jody asked about Bromwin's purported
whereabouts in Nimben.

Speaker 9 (17:52):
No, because I didn't want to scare her off. I
just knew that if her name was in the statements,
you'd be able to find her.

Speaker 8 (17:59):
Why should she be scared?

Speaker 9 (18:01):
Because if she knew this, why didn't she come forward
with it earlier? If Johanna told her years ago that
she thought she saw her, why didn't she come forward.
I got the impression she didn't want to be involved,
so I just left it that way. I expect you
to take it further, not me.

Speaker 8 (18:17):
You weren't interested in finding out yourself?

Speaker 9 (18:20):
Yes, I was, but I knew you would do that
for me.

Speaker 8 (18:23):
You see, ma'am, I really can't believe that someone who
has lost a mother figure would simply say, well, I
won't ask any questions of this caller, I'll let police
follow it up. Have you ever received any financial gifts
from your father of a substantial nature. No, you've obviously
discussed the progress of this matter with your father leading

(18:44):
up to you today of this week.

Speaker 9 (18:46):
You mean, briefly, But Dad's trying. He doesn't get me
involved in it. He does not involve me or influence
me in any way whatsoever.

Speaker 8 (18:56):
When you say he doesn't involve you, you'd agree with
me that on seventeen May nineteen ninety three, he involved you,
didn't he. Yes, Are you suggesting that your father hasn't
spoken with you at all about the evidence that you've
heard at this inquest?

Speaker 9 (19:11):
No, not really.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
Jodie insisted that her father had not suggested to her
any of the evidence that she should give to the inquest,
and she said that he had definitely not influenced her
in relation to her memory of events relevant to Bromwin's disappearance.

Speaker 8 (19:28):
You see, ma'am, there must have been some information over
the years that you've learned about Bronwin and her disappearance,
which you've learnt from your father.

Speaker 9 (19:37):
There's lots of things I've learned about this whole thing
over the years. And to be honest, like somebody said, rumors,
there are so many rumors that it's just like this
influx of information. You don't know where you get it
from half the time the stuff.

Speaker 8 (19:49):
You hear, And ma'am, you'd agree that based on your
knowledge of Bronwin, she wouldn't be the person that would
walk out on her children, would she.

Speaker 9 (19:59):
I wouldn't have thought so.

Speaker 8 (20:01):
And therefore, ma'am, you must be surprised that Bronlin hasn't
returned after all this time.

Speaker 9 (20:06):
Yes, I am surprised, but you know there was things
going on with Bronwin at the time when she disappeared.

Speaker 8 (20:12):
You're saying, ma'am, I'm suggesting it's unbelievable, really, that you
could lose this mother figure and these reported sightings occur,
and the medicare check arrives, and the clothes go missing,
and you don't discuss these matters with your father.

Speaker 9 (20:27):
I don't discuss them in any great in any detail. No,
if I've asked him questions, he'll answer me, and that's
about it. I don't recall any definite conversations. I think
we just assumed that whoever picked her up in the
car was a boyfriend.

Speaker 8 (20:41):
And you agree, there's been a suggestion that Bronwin may
have run off with some religious group or something like that. Yeah,
I've heard that too, And none of these things you've
discussed with your father.

Speaker 9 (20:53):
I mean, the way I see it is that you know,
if your wife walks out on you and disappears, it's
obviously something that's going to be upsetting for you. So no,
I don't push him to talk. If he wants to
talk to me about it, of course I'm going to
talk to him, but I don't push him to talk
to me about it.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
Matt Fordham sat down. He was done with Jody. John's lawyer,
Craig Leggett, stood to ask just a few questions. He
sought to develop Jody's characterization of Bromwin's behavior in May
nineteen ninety three.

Speaker 12 (21:27):
What did you mean by that?

Speaker 9 (21:29):
Well, I'd heard a lot of things from friends people
around the town that she was acting at work and
the way she was acting with me that weren't her
normal behavior coming up to her disappearing.

Speaker 12 (21:39):
Can you recall any specific examples of how she was
acting other than normally at that time?

Speaker 9 (21:45):
I recall one night she rang me. I don't remember
what it was she was asking me. It was really
late and I was asleep actually, and she said something
to me about drinking and drink driving any other incidents,
only the I was, you know, hearing she was riding
around town on the backs of motorbikes and things like
that through friends that I knew downtown and people were

(22:08):
saying things like she used to walk down the street
talking to herself and things like that, which was not,
you know, the Bronlin that I used to know, and
that was that.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
Jodi was excused, got up and walked away.

Speaker 8 (22:46):
I call Crystal Winfield.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
It was a bold move by the police officer presenting
the case to the deputy state coroner. The suspected murder
victim's daughter would give evidence and potentially implicate the man
she called dad. Karl Milavanovitch understood that the stakes were
getting higher. It would be hard enough for the youngest
witness at the inquest. He didn't want to add to

(23:11):
her burden.

Speaker 14 (23:13):
Mister Leggett, I'm going to make a direction. Did the
evidence of Crystal be given in the absence of your
clothe and also in the absence of Jody made Yes, sir,
those persons will have to leave the court room.

Speaker 12 (23:25):
Yeh, yes, yes, I understand.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Crystal Joy Winfield approached the witness stand as John and
Jody walked out of the Lismore courtroom.

Speaker 14 (23:35):
Crystal, if you need to break at any time, just
let me know if you want a glass of water
or anything.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
Matt Fordham canvassed with Crystal Key parts of her police statement,
Crystal started to expand on some of it in her
oral evidence. She recalled seeing John on the night of
May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
I remember Dad.

Speaker 11 (23:58):
I mean, I don't know whether he left it that,
but I do remember him coming in and I do
remember sitting there watching TV with Luren and they were talking.
He was asking who's going to pay the bills?

Speaker 8 (24:07):
You know.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
Matt Fordham then prompted Cristal with what she said next
in her statement about her mother telling her and Lauren
to clean their teeth and go to bed, and of
hearing her parents arguing and her mother crying.

Speaker 8 (24:22):
Do you remember that happening?

Speaker 15 (24:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (24:24):
I do, yeah, very clearly.

Speaker 8 (24:27):
Do you remember was the argument a short one or
did it go for a long time?

Speaker 2 (24:31):
I think it was kind of more discussion.

Speaker 11 (24:34):
Mum was very worried about, you know, talking while Lauren
and I were that She kind of you know, wanted
to talk.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
To Dad a bit later.

Speaker 11 (24:40):
I mean they were arguing, but you know, not yelling
or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
Crystal said that she did not hear her mother make
any comments about going back to the Byron Street flat.

Speaker 11 (24:52):
I mean, at that age, I was thinking maybe mum
and dad might sort things out and you know, get
back together.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
Matt Fordham then remind Crystal of the parts of her
statement where she described having been woken up and put
in the car with some clothing Lauren and the family pet.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
I mean, I guess some things are stick in your
head more than others.

Speaker 11 (25:12):
But at that point in time, I was sitting in
the car and Lauren was next to me, and I
had my dog on my lap, and I because, I mean,
I always got Lauren to askings because of reasons.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
But Crystal became distressed. She could not go on, do.

Speaker 13 (25:25):
You want to break? For a couple of minutes, Crystal
take a short Breakstarge.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
She had begun to describe her reluctance to ask John
questions and how Lauren would.

Speaker 5 (25:36):
Then take on this role.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
After regathering her composure, Crystal came back and was offered
a support person to sit with her.

Speaker 8 (25:45):
Ma'am in the car on the way down to Sydney.
Do you remember stopping anywhere?

Speaker 2 (25:50):
See, I can't. I can't be quite sure that it
was the same night.

Speaker 11 (25:53):
I mean, we did go to Sydney a couple of
times after that night, but I'm pretty sure we stopped
on the way down outside for Dad to.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
Have a rest.

Speaker 11 (26:00):
I think it was a deserted petrol station. It was
old and it didn't look functioning. It wasn't functioning anymore.
But yeah, I'm not sure whether that.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
Was that night.

Speaker 8 (26:09):
Do you remember stopping somewhere and playing with the dog
for example?

Speaker 11 (26:13):
Yeah, yeah, we stopped. It was daylight at that time
and we needed to stop to let the dog go
to the toilet. And I think it was kind of
on the side of the road and it was just
a hill that we'd stopped somewhere.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Crystal said she slept for most of the drive to Sydney.

Speaker 8 (26:28):
Do you remember stopping at the hair cell on and
meeting up with Jody?

Speaker 2 (26:33):
No, I don't.

Speaker 8 (26:34):
Do you remember being taken to Jenny Mason's house? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (26:38):
I remember being there. Yeah.

Speaker 8 (26:41):
And do you remember how long you were there?

Speaker 5 (26:43):
For?

Speaker 2 (26:44):
Pretty much the afternoon? Yeah?

Speaker 8 (26:46):
And do you remember then going to the Reed's house.

Speaker 11 (26:50):
I mean, I couldn't be certain it was the same day,
but I remember going there.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah, this was an illuminating exchange. In my view, Crystal
was direct and firm about one thing. She had no
memory of stopping at the hair salon and meeting up
with Jody. Matt Fordham already appeared to have suspicions about
whether such a stopover had occurred. Let's consider the timeline.

(27:17):
John had a receipt for the purchase of petrol at
eleven o six pm at the Ampole service station in
Ballaner the night before, but that is only evidence of
the time he bought fuel. It's not evidence of the
time he left Ballana to drive south. More likely, in
my view, is that John drove back to the house

(27:38):
in Sandstone Crescent after buying petrol, put Bromwin's body in
the back seat, drove down Granite Street, where.

Speaker 5 (27:46):
He was seen by Judy Singh.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
Around midnight, and then, for whatever reason, changed his mind
about disposing of Bromwin's body locally, returned to the house,
where he moved Bromwin's body to the boot of the
Ford Falcon, hastily packed clothes in pillowcases and told the
two girls to get into the.

Speaker 5 (28:07):
Car for a drive to Sydney.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
But he didn't have a lot of time because he
was leaving Lennox Head closer to one am in this scenario,
not two hours earlier eleven oh six pm. If this
theory is right, there was no time for a stopover
at the hair salon before he turned up at his
former wife Jennifer Mason's house.

Speaker 8 (28:30):
You say that you went to bed and you could
hear them arguing outside your bedroom. Do you remember how
long that argument went?

Speaker 11 (28:37):
For?

Speaker 2 (28:38):
Probably about half because I think I was pretty tight.
I mean I usually fall asleep within half an hour.

Speaker 8 (28:43):
And do you remember what time you were woken up
and placed into the car?

Speaker 2 (28:48):
I'm not sure. I mean I thought it was around
I don't know. No, I'm not quite sure, but it
was around one or something.

Speaker 8 (28:55):
Do you remember was there anything else inside the car?

Speaker 9 (28:58):
No?

Speaker 11 (28:59):
But I mean I remember as we were leaving, Dad
was grubbing a few things, like packing them into bags,
and we were walking out the door.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
He carried Lauren to the car.

Speaker 8 (29:06):
I walked.

Speaker 11 (29:07):
I have a feeling Lauren was already in the car
when I was there. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Lauren was
already in the car.

Speaker 8 (29:13):
I think you were present earlier when you heard mister
Nolan described the car rolling down without the engine on
and the car bottoming out as it entered the roadway.
Do you have any memory of that at all?

Speaker 2 (29:24):
Dad often did that. Yeah, I can't be certain.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
Matt Fordham asked Crystal about whether she recalled stopping for
fuel at the Pied Piper Ampole service station in Ballina
before they left the region for the drive south, and
Crystal replied yes, she did remember something about that, but
then she said, I.

Speaker 11 (29:43):
Was seeking Oh it's daylight and I didn't want to
see anyone in my pajamas.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah. Crystal did not clarify whether she might have been
confusing this stopped for fuel with a different one, but
she recalled that John was drinking a lot of coffee.
He must have been exhaust.

Speaker 11 (30:01):
Yeah, he was very tired. Yeah, he just looked tired.
I think there was a lot going on at that time.
We were all going through a lot at that time.
He looked very tired and very pale.

Speaker 13 (30:11):
Ma'am.

Speaker 8 (30:11):
You say in your statement that your father does not
want you to speak to the police about what happened
that night. Was there anything that your father said to
you that makes you say that.

Speaker 11 (30:22):
I think it was more the fact that I felt
Dad never really wanted to talk about it. I mean,
he never specifically said, I don't want you to speak
to the police about it, But I mean I was
in the car of a number of times when people
Glenn I think, had wrung him and he was going
off with them for ringing us when the kids are here,
and so I kind of got the impression he didn't.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
Want me to go in.

Speaker 11 (30:39):
I know, after I'd gone and made my statement, Dad
had got him really angry with me about it, simply
because he wanted Jody to be there.

Speaker 1 (30:46):
Crystal said that she had explained to John that she
was accompanied by one of her school teachers for the
making of her police statement, but John was not happy
about it.

Speaker 11 (30:56):
He asked me, who'd you go with, and I said, well,
you're at school. Yeah, He said, I wanted Jody to
be there when you made your statement.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
I guess he kind of was thinking that they were
twisting our words or whatever.

Speaker 11 (31:09):
When he asked for a copy of my statement, I
said I couldn't find it. He said, because I'm worried
because I need a copy.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Cristel added that John told her the copy would be
for his solicitor or his barrister. Crystal used both those
words for a lawyer, and she added that John said
people had.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
Been twisting his words and people's words or something.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Crystal confirmed that she was in John's care until she
was fourteen, and then she went to live with Liz
and Clive Gardner, a couple from a church, which Crystal
had become close to. Describing John's situation as at two
thousand and two, Crystal said, Lauren was still at home.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
They've got a house.

Speaker 11 (31:51):
Well, they've got a double block of wear and they've
built a house for Jody's family, and Dad's building a
house for Lauren and him.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
Next, you'll recall a brief exchange earlier in this episode
when Jody was being questioned. Here's a reminder, have.

Speaker 8 (32:06):
You ever received any financial gifts from your father of
a substantial nature? No, ma'am. Over the years since your
mother has disappeared, has your father indicated to you where
she may have gone.

Speaker 2 (32:20):
We've never talked about it.

Speaker 11 (32:22):
I think the only person I ever spoke to was Jodi,
and Jody would tell me things that she heard. I mean,
I think that's where the motorbike things come from. I mean,
I was told her one stage by Jody that Mum
had been seeing I'll justly be missing on the back
of a motorbike by one of her friends, you know,
and things like that. I guess Lauren and I kind
of felt like were left out of it a bit.
Lauren was telling me last night or the night before that,

(32:44):
Jody said to her that if Mum will passed her
in the streets, she wouldn't recognize her because she was
going funny in the head.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
And I mean things like that.

Speaker 11 (32:52):
I mean I was told, you know, we talked about
how her mum had done the same thing, and whether
that was to make us feel better about it or
like her, and things. I don't know, but it was said,
and I mean, those things stick in your head because
we want to believe them.

Speaker 8 (33:06):
I guess you've since found out, of course, that the
issue of Bronwin's mother leaving. I think the truth is
that she went overseas for a few years and came back,
and she was with her own mother throughout that time,
and it may not have been as big an issue
as may have been thought soon after nineteen ninety three.
Is that your understanding now.

Speaker 11 (33:24):
Yeah, I mean, just sitting here and listening to how
many people Mum used to keep the regular contact with,
I just think, well, you think she would have contact
at least one person.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
Matt Fordham asked about a signet ring it belonged to Crystal,
and the mention of it prompted some potentially important evidence
from her.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Well, that's actually what I find really strange.

Speaker 11 (33:46):
Like, I mean, I don't know at the time whether
it was in a handbag, but I had a signet
ring that was given to me when I was very young,
and it was broken at that point in time, it
had split, and I swore she had it in a
handbag because she was going to get it fixed, because
I remember going through a handbag one time and finding
it and thinking, oh, Mom, you're gonna go.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
Get this fixed. And I just swore it was in
a handbag.

Speaker 11 (34:06):
And then not that long ago, a couple of years ago,
or maybe three years ago, Laura said, oh, look, well Dad.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
Gave me and it was my ring.

Speaker 11 (34:14):
And I thought, that's my signet ring and I recognized
it straight away, and it was just the strangest thing,
and I thought, oh, well, maybe it wasn't in a bag.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
I don't know. It was just weird.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
Andy and Michelle must have heard it with a heavy heart.
John had claimed that when Bromman walked out the door
on the night of May sixteen, nineteen ninety three, she
took her handbag. If Crystal's ring was inside that handbag,
how did it materialize some five years later as a
gift from John to Lauren. Had John taken valuable such

(34:48):
as jewelry and cash from the handbag when broman disappeared.

Speaker 8 (34:52):
Had it been repaired?

Speaker 11 (34:54):
No, it still had to split. I took it offer well,
I asked for it if I could have it.

Speaker 8 (35:00):
And the last time that you saw that signal ring
was when your mother had it. Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (35:05):
Crystal said that neither she nor Lauren spoke up about
there being no photographs of their mother in the house.
All the framed family portraits were taken away. If an
awkward question needed to be asked, Crystal said she would
ask Lauren to do this.

Speaker 11 (35:23):
Because I knew that he would let her have anything
I get it to ask, Oh, you know, we should
see if we can get a look at our baby photos.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Or something like that.

Speaker 11 (35:31):
So she would always ask, but he'd say, oh, I
don't know where they are.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
The police officer asked whether Lauren had talked about what
she remembered on the night of the trip to Sydney.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (35:43):
I spoke to her about it just recently. She came
to stay with me when she had holidays. Like I mean,
I've spoken to her previously, like about it a long
time ago as well. But I said it to her
again and she told me exactly the same thing she said.
I got up and wanted to the room, and Mom
was sitting on the coffee in the middle of the
room as she was crying, and she quickly wiped her

(36:03):
tears away as if nothing was wrong, and she said,
come on, Lauren, get back to bed, you know, and
popped her into bed and tucked her in, and she said,
everything's fine, you know, I'll see you in the morning.

Speaker 1 (36:14):
Crystal added something else. It was from the time they
were staying in the rented property after moving out of
the house and Bromwin was on the.

Speaker 11 (36:22):
Telephone and I just heard Mom saying, Jody, you have
no idea, you should just keep out of it, and
she was crying.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
It was really hard time for everyone.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
When I asked about the garage of the house at
Sandstone Crescent, Crystal described it as their playroom.

Speaker 11 (36:38):
It was where we spent all our time with our friends.
We weren't allowed in the house when dad wasn't home.
We weren't even allowed in the house when he was
home and we were with our friends.

Speaker 8 (36:47):
Did he used to leave you for periods inside the
garage and lock the door to the house.

Speaker 11 (36:52):
Yeah, when he went surfing, or when he went shopping
or whatever, just all the time. I guess never really
thought anything about it. He might offer and leave us
some musely bar I'd say, Lauren, aren't you hungry?

Speaker 2 (37:03):
Asked that if we can have something to eat?

Speaker 1 (37:05):
Crystal's evidence had been poignant. The nineteen year old had
opened a window to behaviors and events which were sad
and deeply suspicious. John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, began asking Crystal
about her stay with Clive Gardner, the pastor in the church,
and his wife.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Well, Dad kind of said to me that he was
going to Sydney intro do some work.

Speaker 12 (37:28):
And did he ask you, do you want to come
to the city.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Well, I said, I didn't want to go. I wanted
to be around my friends.

Speaker 11 (37:35):
I wanted to finish my school there, and so I
asked I wanted to stay there, and I mean, Lauren
wouldn't actually go with him. I mean, when I lived
with the gardeners, I felt like part of their family.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
The lawyer spent some time going over the layout of
the house, trying to establish Crystal's proximity to the telephone, which,
according to John Bromwin had used in the bedroom to
make a call to a stranger to pick her up
on that fateful night.

Speaker 5 (38:01):
He then asked Crystal.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
About John's concern over his words being twisted in the
statement Crystal had made. She said that she understood its
importance and that its contents were what she truthfully remembered
in nineteen ninety eight of the events of five years earlier.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
I'd heard the rumors. I live in the same town.
I just assume you know. Of course, he was concerned
for himself about what has been said.

Speaker 12 (38:27):
Mark Davis says that you told him Bronwin had been
diagnosed schizophrenic but didn't believe the doctors and didn't take
her medication. Was that something that Bronwin told you or
did you hear it from some other source.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
No, that was Jodie that told me.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
Speaking of her mother, Cristel added that she had not
heard her mother behaving strangely as had been claimed.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
Nothing seemed weird about her at all, like in that way.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
Crystal recalled that when they were packing the house, her
father said to her, grab your and.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
Then I followed him into the car.

Speaker 11 (39:02):
I just remember this because I was sitting in the
car and Lauren was sitting next to me, and I
guess we're both wondering at the time, you know, what's
going on?

Speaker 2 (39:09):
Where's mom?

Speaker 11 (39:10):
And I think I said something to her and she
says something to dad, where's mom.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
Karl Milavanovitch, the deputy state coroner, broke the momentary silence.

Speaker 13 (39:21):
Ask your clok Berg, you.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
Certainly, your worship, And then the police officer, Matt Fordham,
surprised many of those sitting in the courtroom. He revealed
that the other witness planned for that day was Jonathan Winfield.
John's lawyer was quickly back on his feet.

Speaker 12 (39:40):
Your worship. I've given mister Winfield the traditional legal advice
that a person gets given in this position, and that
is to rely upon the provisions of Section thirty three
of the Coroner's Act.

Speaker 13 (39:53):
Section thirty three is an immunity from prosecution.

Speaker 12 (39:56):
The right to silence. I'm advising mister Winfield to avail
himself of that right.

Speaker 13 (40:03):
Well, that is his right.

Speaker 14 (40:04):
He's not required to give evidence unless you simply want
him to take the witness stand and give his name
and simply.

Speaker 13 (40:09):
Put on the record.

Speaker 5 (40:11):
We could do that for mality.

Speaker 14 (40:13):
I think that's appropriate because he is a witness in
these proceedings.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
The idea that John Winfield would be compelled to answer
questions under oath like everyone else, was thrilling to meaning
in the public gallery. Unlike everyone else, John was at
risk of self incrimination. Our legal system boasts a powerful
and long standing principle. If an accused person a suspect

(40:39):
in a crime is compelled or forced to give evidence
which could incriminate that person, then there is a protection
The resulting answers, if they are, for example, admissions which
might indicate guilt or involvement in a crime, cannot be
used in a future criminal proceeding, such as a murder
trial of that person. That's the immunity which the Deputy

(41:02):
State Coroner, Karl Milavanovitch was talking about.

Speaker 8 (41:06):
Sir, could you please tell us your full name, Jonathan Winfield, Sir,
is it the case that you've sought some legal advice
from your barrister in relation to answering questions at this inquest?
Is that correct?

Speaker 13 (41:19):
That's correct?

Speaker 8 (41:21):
And so is it the case that, based on this
legal advice, you wish to raise an objection under section
thirty three to giving answers to any questions that we
ask you.

Speaker 5 (41:31):
That's correct.

Speaker 8 (41:32):
I've nothing further, you worship.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
Try to put yourself in john shoes. By two thousand
and two, it's been nine years since Bromwin disappeared, and
you're insistent that you have done nothing wrong and you
should want to help authorities in every possible way to
try to find your estranged wife, the mother of your
youngest daughter, Lauren, and her sister Crystal. But John was

(41:59):
stone silent. His legal protection was paramount. Shortly before this
episode was released, I spoke to Andy about John's brief
appearance in the witness box.

Speaker 5 (42:12):
Andy used the.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
Expression pleading the Fifth, a reference to the phrase used
in the United States justice system when witnesses rely on
the Fifth Amendment and the right to silence. When John
stepped up to give evidence, do you remember that and
do you recall whether.

Speaker 5 (42:31):
That was a surprise to you?

Speaker 3 (42:34):
The only question he answered was his name and you're
pleating the fifth yep. I think Matt only asked him
two questions, and cultures stopped it there.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
On that note, John Winfield walked back to his chair
and sat down next to his lawyer, Matt Fordham offered
a summation of where things were at the Detective Sergeant
Graham Diskin was a likely no show, but there was
still Wayne Toby, who had worked with Detective.

Speaker 5 (43:02):
Discin during those lame.

Speaker 1 (43:03):
Inquiries made in nineteen ninety three. Detective Temby had then
worked on the case with Glenn Taylor from nineteen ninety eight.

Speaker 5 (43:13):
The coroner spoke next, I.

Speaker 14 (43:15):
Probably would have some reservations as to what it is
detective seeing it Constable Tenby would be able to add
to this inquiry, although I suppose we won't know the
answer to that unless he was here. It really seems
that the real impetus into investigation didn't really start until
Detective Sergeant Taylor took courage.

Speaker 13 (43:32):
Of the matter.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
John's lawyer, Craig Legget and the police officer presenting the
case at the inquest. Matt Fordham then agreed that rather
than have Detective Temby giving evidence under oath, they would
have a short adjournment and telephone him on his mobile phone.
Craig Leggett only wanted to know whether Detective Temby had
any recollection of a witness, saying in nineteen ninety three

(43:57):
that the Ford Falcon drove up sense and present not
down it. But after some further conversation between John and
his lawyer, the idea was abandoned. Detective Temby would be
neither telephone to clarify anything, nor call to give evidence.

Speaker 14 (44:14):
And he's going to be relying on running sheets that
were made nearly nine years ago. And he said no
statement that he's made that will refresh his memory or
a statement that he made a lot earlier that would
perhaps be a reliable and concience record of his recollection
at the time.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
This was an unfortunate turn of events in my view,
because the coronial inquiry really should have tried to glean
relevant evidence from the Detective Wayne Temby. He was working
with Detective Sergeant Graham Diskin in nineteen ninety three. They
spoke to Bromin's friends, neighbors, and family members. In two

(44:51):
thousand and two, Karl Milavanovitch, as Deputy State Coroner, was
frustrated at the lack of police documentation from nineteen ninety
and the unexplained failure of Discan and Temby to take
a single witness statement. Their police running sheets were a
very poor and lazy substitute for signed witness statements. In

(45:15):
two thousand and two, Discan clearly was not going to
go to the inquest to explain why there were such
gaping holes in what should have been a serious investigation
into a missing young mother, but the next best option
was the younger police officer Wayne Temby. There were good
reasons for Sergeant Matt Fordham to call Temby to give

(45:36):
evidence under oath. A subpoena should have compelled him to
bring his police notebook, refer to it wherever he needed,
and answer obvious questions about why so little was done
by he and Discan when the trial was relatively fresh.
In my view, Glen Taylor also should have taken a
statement from Temby at the start of Taylor's nineteen ninety

(45:59):
eight Investors destigation. Instead, Glenn had to try to rely
on and make sense of a hodgepodge of incomplete evidence
and running sheet entries, which Discan and Tembe were largely
responsible for in nineteen ninety three. It's a remarkable fact
that during the public hearings for the inquest in two
thousand and two, Glenn Taylor was being shown for the

(46:22):
first time bits of evidence from nineteen ninety three, such
as Broman's writings and diary notes. What was going on
in the ball and A police station. I have talked
to a retired police officer who worked there and knew
the detectives in nineteen ninety three. He described the culture
and work ethic in the most unflattering terms. Its shaped

(46:45):
up as a dream job, a quiet town with affordable
housing and great beaches, surfing and fishing. But there were
serious crimes and unsolved murders too, And the retired cop
told me that he and another officer in nineteen ninety
three would say to each other.

Speaker 8 (47:04):
If you're going to commit a murder in Australia, do
it in Ballina without a tecticy. You get away with.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
It by not calling Wayne Temby to give evidence at
the inquest in two thousand and two, the reputations of
Ballener police were unlikely to be damaged. Par truth about
the failures and shortcomings in the original police investigation of
Broman's disappearance would be largely withheld from the journalists, Broman's

(47:31):
friends and family, and members of the public attending the
Lismore courthouse each day. In this way, New South Wales
police avoided media scrutiny and acute embarrassment for having failed
the mother of two. We do not have Graham Diskin's
side of the story, nor do we have Wayne Temby's side.

(47:52):
The former police detectives from Ballina were approached to be
interviewed by me at an early stage of this podcast investigation.
The offer remains open. Here's Bromwin's sister Melissa, reflecting on
the performance of police. Melissa attended the inquest Glenn Taylor.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
He was certainly convinced that there'd been foul play. I
wish that he'd been the person on the case when
it happened, because I think that would have been very different.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
What more did they need?

Speaker 2 (48:24):
They needed a body? We did not have a body?

Speaker 1 (48:27):
Was that the last time you saw John at the
Inquesse So last time I spoke to Andy and Michelle
about it while this episode was being finalized. What we
know is that the police investigation in ninety three was
completely negligent and incompetent. Yes, what we don't know is why,

(48:48):
for what reason?

Speaker 15 (48:50):
Well, it was Bromman's disappearance one of many other investigations
that were just swept to the side and not bothered with.
I wonder how many other people from that area are
finding themselves listening to your podcast and thinking, Yeah, they

(49:10):
didn't do anything.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
When this happened. Is this a one off or a
general way it.

Speaker 15 (49:17):
Worked out of that police station with certain people.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
Late in the afternoon of the fourth day of the
inquest in Lizmon in two thousand and two, the Deputy
State Coroner gave his cue to Matt Fordham. The police
officer had a lot to say. It was his damning
of the case against John Winfield, but it does not
appear in the official transcript of the inquest. For whatever reason,

(50:09):
submissions and closing addresses were not transcribed. Somebody provided me
with the document which Matt Fordham read in court that afternoon.
In fairness to John, it would have been preferable to
balance the ledger with the submission which his lawyer, Craig
Legot made at the inquest. The following day, I reached

(50:30):
out to Craig Legget in Sydney to ask him. However,
mister Leggett respectfully declined. And just a reminder, although Craig
Legot has been mentioned many times in the podcast, he
has not personally.

Speaker 5 (50:43):
Been involved in it.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
The real Craig Legate sounds like this. I found a
snippet on YouTube from one of his legal presentations.

Speaker 13 (50:53):
After everybody, my name's Craig Leggett.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
I'm a senior counsel from Martain Place Chambers.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
Nor have you heard the voices of John or Crystal,
or Lauren or Jody in this podcast? Maddie's younger sister
Tiana voiced Crystal's evidence. They are related by blood and
of course they know each other. John, Crystal, Lauren and
Jody still have standing invitations to be interviewed in this

(51:21):
podcast investigation. Now here's the voice actor for Matt Fordham
from the inquest in two thousand and two. This is
an edited version of what he told the court and
the deputy State coroner that day in the presence of
John and Roman's family and friends.

Speaker 8 (51:39):
Brongwin was known to be very close to her two daughters. However,
neither they nor her friends or blood family have received
any contact from her. This is extremely out of character
for her. Doreen Strong of the Family Support Service states
that Bronwin had no intention of leaving her kids and

(51:59):
in fact wanted to maintain sole custody of the kids.
This is confirmed by her attendants at solicitors to arrange
an application in the family court. Her uncle John Reid
states that around Christmas nineteen ninety two, Bronwan was left
stranded in Sydney by Jonathan Winfield and complained of being

(52:19):
assaulted by him. He saw bruising on Bronwyn's arm. Her
cousin Megan Reid, also stated that Bronwin complained of being
assaulted and being forced into aborting a pregnancy against her will.
Not long before her disappearance, Bronwin asked her sister in law,
Michelle Reid, to look after her children if anything was

(52:41):
to happen to her. Bronwyin did not have any independent
source of financial support other than the accounts, which have
not been touched since she disappeared.

Speaker 1 (52:51):
Matt Fordham said Bromwyn had expressed concern to her near
neighbor Alan Fisher, about what would occur when Jonathan Winfield
returned to Lennox from Sydney. Bromwin stated that she was
quote terrified about what he might do unquote. Matt Fordham
said Bromwin was very stressed in the days before her disappearance.

(53:14):
She had told Desiree Flood on the afternoon of Sunday
May sixteen that she was expecting problems when John arrived
from Sydney, and that Desiree should not worry if she
were to hear a commotion. Matt Fordham spoke, of course,
about John, his movements, his intentions, and his versions of
what had happened.

Speaker 8 (53:36):
Jonathan Winfield states that he saw Bronwin get up and
walk silently out the front door of the premises, and
that he heard the sound of the car leaving. Mister
Winfield tries to explain Bronwin's disappearance as being due to
her being mentally ill and living with other people. There
is no confirmed contact with Bronwyn, since she took no

(53:58):
belongings and none were taken from her flat. She has
not contacted any family, nor her friends, nor her kids
since the night she disappeared. That night, Jonathan Winfield immediately
put the kids into their family car and left the house.
He attends a service station at eleven o six pm
where he buys petrol and gas before he drives almost

(54:20):
non stop to Sydney, arriving about nine am the following day.
He drops the kids with relatives, strangely shows them the
receipt from the petrol purchase at a previous night, and
is not seen for the rest of the day. His
movements at this time are not precisely known and are suspicious.
There is strong evidence of flight from the scene. Jonathan

(54:43):
Winfield's only explanation as to why he would take the
kid's overnight back to Sydney within hours of his arrival
in lenox Head is that the kids apparently travel better
at night. He does not explain why he would fly
back to lennox Head with all of his clothes, his surfboard, etc.
And then leave hurriedly without these things. His arrival in

(55:05):
Sydney was not expected by relatives, and he does not
appear to have taken the kids for holidays, as he
did not take suitable clothing for the kids and in
fact spends little time with him in Sydney. Also, when
Jonathan Winfield arrived on Michelle Reid's doorstep with the kids
on seventeen May nineteen ninety three, he appeared quite shaky.

(55:28):
When the neighbors entered the Winfield's house after Bronwn went missing,
they noticed that it was untidy, foods on plates, wet
washing in the machine, and beds not made. This was
strikingly unusual, and it appeared to the neighbors that the
house had been left in a hurry. Jonathan Winfield only
reported Bronwin as missing after her brother, Andrew Reid, suggested

(55:50):
that he might do so. At the time Bronwin allegedly
walked out of the house, Jonathan Winfield did not know
for how long she would be gone. He left no
note for her explaining where he was taking the kids,
and although this could have been to get back at her,
this conflicts with his version that he phoned the house
to check on Bronwyn's welfare. Jonathan Winfield was very concerned

(56:13):
about losing the house that he built. He was aware
that possession of the house was a significant factor to
be considered by any tribunal determining a property settlement, and
would have been keen to remain in the family home.
If he thought that Bronwyn was likely to divorce him,
at the very least, he would not have wanted Bronwyn

(56:33):
to retain possession of the home. The legal advice received
by Bronwyn shortly before her disappearance suggested that she would
be entitled to a significant percentage of the assets if
the couple divorced, and that it was expected that she
would retain custody of both Lauren and Crystal, and that
Jonathan would incur liability to pay child maintenance. There is

(56:56):
strong evidence that Jonathan Winfield was a possessive husband who
did not allow his wife any financial or social freedom.
This conflicts with his version that he did not challenge
Bronwan about where she was going late at night when
she allegedly walked out of the house. Being possessive of
both his wife and the house, one can imagine his

(57:18):
reaction when he arrived back to his own home and
found that the locks had been changed and that his
bags had been packed. Jonathan Winfield has been very against
any media release associated with the disappearance of his wife,
and even today has expressed to police his disliked for
publicity about the matter. Bronwin has disclosed to her friend

(57:40):
Denise Barnard, that Jonathan Winfield had been violent towards her
and she was scared of further assaults. She stated that
she was tired of Jonathan Winfield's possessive manner and planned
to leave with the kids. Bronwan had disclosed to another
friend that Jonathan Winfield had threatened to kill her if
she ever bad mouthed him in public. Only days prior

(58:04):
to her disappearance, Browin gave instructions to a solicitor, Mister mcdebott,
and on fourteen May nineteen ninety three, a solicitor's letter
was sent to Jonathan Winfield indicating that the house and
car would be contested in a property settlement. Jonathan Winfield's
first wife, Jenny Mason, describes an incident to where Jonathan

(58:26):
tried to kill her, how he was possessive and demanded
a totally clean house and would not allow her to
smoke inside the house. Compare this with the fact that
dirty ashtrays were found by neighbors when they broke into
the home, which would indicate that Bronwin had been smoking
inside the home, not expecting Jonathan to continue to live there.

(58:50):
The fact that Jonathan left the house so suddenly, with
half eaten food left on plates, where washing left in
the machine, and dirty ashtrays is totally outside the character
for him. On fourteen May nineteen ninety three, the solicitors
acting for bronwin sent Jonathan a letter indicating that she

(59:11):
proposed to pay the outstanding registration fees for the nineteen
eighty six Falcon so that the vehicle would be registered
in her name only and she alone would use it.
Jonathan was potentially going to have to part with eighteen
percent of his income to child maintenance. Jonathan's previous wife
d describes him as being possessive and how when they separated,

(59:36):
he did not want her to claim her share of
the property settlement. The other previous wife, Jenny Mason, also
described an incident where Jonathan threatened to kill her and
strangled her neck until she kicked his groin and escaped.
Jenny Mason confirms that Jonathan did not bring any clothing
with the kids when he took them to Sydney. The daughter,

(59:58):
Crystal Winfield, describes how her father would lose control and
hit her mother on one occasion. Jonathan through crystal against
a wall.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Matt Fordham told the Deputy State Coroner that the version
of events proffered by John Winfield can be discounted conclusively
because of several flaws. The police officer added that there
was sufficient evidence for a court to find guilt on
what was, of course a circumstantial case. Matt Fordham set

(01:00:31):
out some of what he regarded as the fundamental flaws
in John's version.

Speaker 8 (01:00:36):
The medicare check was signed allegedly by Bronwin at a
space on the document where it should have been signed
by the medical practitioner. This is a basic error which
would not have been made by a person with Bronwyn's
work experience. The neighbor was convalescing on the lounge in
the front room of his home throughout the time in

(01:00:57):
which Jonathan Winfield alleges that Bronwin seemed walked out of
the house and got into an awaiting vehicle. The gradient
of Sandstone Crescent is such that a vehicle would either
leave by traveling down the hill into the view of
mister Nolan, or else it would travel up the hill,
which would require significant revving of the vehicle's engine. Mister

(01:01:19):
Nolan neither saw nor heard any vehicle stop and then
leave outside Sandstone Crescent that evening, apart from the Windfields
Ford Falcon sedan which bottomed out. Mister Nolan also recognized
the suspicion attached to this disappearance within a few weeks
because he went to the rear of his property and

(01:01:40):
opened the lid of a sewer pit which bordered the
Winfield's property in which he suspected Bronlan's body may have
been stored. During a visit of the site during the inquest,
mister Nolan pointed out a wire harness which was still
attached to the sewer lid as being the harness he
construct did in order to open it soon after the disappearance.

(01:02:04):
The folly of Jonathan Winfield's version was immediately obvious to
Bronwan's sister in law, Michelle Reid. Missus Reed also noted
that it was strange that the children did not have
adequate clothing brought with them, and that Jonathan had told
her that Bronwan left the house at ten thirty PM
or ten forty five PM, which was different to his

(01:02:26):
subsequent versions. Jonathan Winfield later tells people that Browan left
the house at an earlier time, which would be consistent
with him making up those details. He also appears to
have made up details about a car stopping outside the house,
as he did not inform missus Reed of that on
the morning that he and the children arrived in Sydney.

(01:02:47):
Any benign explanation of Bronwan Winfield's disappearance would require that
she totally disregarded her two children. A number of witnesses
described her as being a devoted mother who would not
have left the kids. That does not appear to be
any credible evidence that she was involved heavily with a
religious group, and police inquiries with the suggested boyfriend, Gary Jackson,

(01:03:11):
reveal that she did not run off with him. The
only suggestion supporting these theories is the fact that Bronwin's
own mother was forced to go overseas and leave her
kids due to mental illness when her kids were very young. However,
there is no evidence of this in relation to Bronwin.
For Bronwin not to contact her children after almost a

(01:03:32):
decade is I submit, highly suggestive that she is deceased.
There is absolutely no evidence that anyone other than Jonathan
Winfield had any motivation or opportunity to kill Bronwin. The
little break which the deceased referred to in her diaries
does not necessarily mean that the deceased intended to leave

(01:03:53):
her children completely. The diaries do not suggest that the
deceased voluntarily left her home late on a Sunday night,
and in any event, do not suggest any reason for
her to leave her children. It is my respectful submission
that there is only one rational hypothesis available on these facts.

(01:04:13):
Jonathan Winfield killed Bronwin Winfield on the sixteenth of May
nineteen ninety three. The most likely method of carrying out
the killing was by strangling or smothering the deceased, as
no evidence of a struggle, weapons, or bloodstains were found
inside the house when neighbours entered in the days after
the disappearance. A jury will, in my submission, recognize the

(01:04:38):
compelling nature of the admissible evidence available against the suspect
Jonathan Winfield. Accordingly, I submit that the tests under Section
nineteen of the Coroner's Acts have been satisfied and that
a jury would convict Jonathan Winfield of Bronwin's murder.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
It was a compelling build up and then a powerful lending.
Karl Milavanovitch spoke up and he told the court that
he was of the view that he could find on
the evidence that Bronwyn joy Winfield.

Speaker 14 (01:05:11):
Is in fact deceased. I think the evidence that we
have heard in the last four days regarding Bronwyn would
suggest that, notwithstanding that she had some difficulties in her life,
there is no suggestion that she intended simply to disappear
off the face of the earth, and perhaps disappear in
a sense of joining our commune or just dropping out
of life. The overwhelming inference is that she must be deceased,

(01:05:33):
and I think the evidence is very clear.

Speaker 13 (01:05:35):
And persuasive in that regard. She had plans even in
the immediate.

Speaker 14 (01:05:38):
Days after her disappearance. She had plans to see a solicitor.
She had plans to look after the children. We have
all seen and learned a little bit more about Bronwin
in the last four days, about her personality, about her
devotion to her children, and it is beyond conceivable belief
that she would have just disappeared and have made no
contact with anybody over the last nine years.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
He referenced the strange events with Jodie Winfield, suggesting Bromwin
was alive and well and living out Nimben Way.

Speaker 14 (01:06:08):
And one perhaps wonders what the motivation behind that evidence was,
whether it was to frustrate this inquiry or whether it
was genuine. But be that as it may, there is
no positive, affirmative or definitive or reliable sighting of Bronwyn
other than by mister Winfield, one of the witnesses in
these proceedings, being the last person, and perhaps Kristall and
Lauren to have seen her alive. The evidence, in my

(01:06:32):
view is overwhelming that she is in fact deceased, and
I am prepared at this stage of the proceedings to
make that ruling that I am satisfied that Bronwin Joy
Winfield is in fact deceased.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
But under the Coroner's Act, Karl Milavanovitch could not stop there.
He was also required to make findings about the date, time,
and manner of her death. It was late in the
day the Deputy State Coroner wanted John and his life
lawyer to have some time overnight to consider their position.

Speaker 14 (01:07:04):
O can, perhaps, in fairness, indicate at this stage that
I'm considering terminating the proceedings and recommending that a known
person be charged with an indutable offense.

Speaker 1 (01:07:14):
Andy recalled that you could have heard a pin drop
without naming the known person. The deputy state Coroner was
flagging that he believed John Winfield should be charged with murder.

Speaker 14 (01:07:26):
I will be giving reasons in detail to the Attorney General,
but that is in confidence in relation to me sending
the brief, the transcripts and my reasons. But I'm happy
to hear any submissions tomorrow tomorrow morning.

Speaker 12 (01:07:38):
Yes, thank you, your worship.

Speaker 1 (01:07:41):
The fifth and final day of the inquest, on Friday
May thirty one, two thousand and two, started at ten
twenty am. Craig Leggott kicked proceedings off with a surprise
new witness. His name was Clive Ian Gardner. His daughter
and Crystal were friends. The Gardner family had looked after

(01:08:02):
Crystal when she was in her teens and no longer
living with John and Lauren.

Speaker 3 (01:08:07):
I'm a pastor with the Christian Outreach Center in Ballana.

Speaker 12 (01:08:12):
I understand you went somewhere last night in the company
of someone I did. Would you tell his worship who where?

Speaker 8 (01:08:21):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (01:08:21):
I went to Broadwater in the company of John Winfield,
who asked me to come to approach Detective disc in.
John had a statement that he wanted the detective to
read and if he agreed with it to sign. That's
what I knew beforehand.

Speaker 13 (01:08:35):
When we got there.

Speaker 3 (01:08:36):
We approached the house, there was a lady in the
front yard who brought us in and called I assume
her husband, who came out. John introduced himself as John Winfield.
The detective said, I can't talk to you. John approached
him to say, I've just got a statement here I'd
like you to read, and he really didn't get the
full sentence out. He just said again, I can't talk
to you. And John tried one more time, and the

(01:08:59):
third time he said I can't talk to you, and
then we left.

Speaker 12 (01:09:03):
And I understand that you formed some impression based on
that conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):
Well, I'd have to recognize him as a man of authority.
It's just in his tone of voice, the way he
said it, the words he chose.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
It was not disclosed how John knew Graham Discin's home address.
I talked to Michelle and Andy about it. They went
to Graham Diskin's house that evening.

Speaker 15 (01:09:29):
When it got mentioned on the Friday morning in the
court ran it was like, how does John know where
Graham discon lives and why did he go there?

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
That was a surprise.

Speaker 8 (01:09:40):
We didn't know that he.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Tried to get him decide stat Debt.

Speaker 5 (01:09:44):
What do you but believe that was.

Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
About Well, I've never seen the document that he tried
to present to Discan, so I don't know, but I'm
assuming that John wanted Discan to agree to certain things
in the document, facts that John would claim he told Discot.

Speaker 5 (01:10:03):
And I think the timing's interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
That happens on the Thursday night, probably a couple of
hours after the Deputy State Coroner has told the court
it's curtains.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
For you, John, expect exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
So this would have been a last ditch bid by
John to try to introduce some new evidence that could
have changed the coroner's mind. The following morning, Graham Discin
or his wife must have telephoned Ballon of police when
John Winfield turned up unexpectedly at Discan's home. Ballener Police

(01:10:37):
took some action that Thursday evening. They alerted Murray Nolan
and Deb Hall at their house in Sandstone Crescent that
John was highly agitated and on the move. Murray and
Deb told me how that unfolded. So it's the last
night of the inquest, He's gone to Discan's house and
we're fre around the house, banging on the walls, and

(01:10:58):
so the police have rang us up and told us
to lock the doors.

Speaker 16 (01:11:02):
A patrol car around to patrol our house because they
were worried about John.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):
He was so angry because it was.

Speaker 16 (01:11:09):
All unfolding at the inquest that he was going to
be nabbed, and he wanted Discan to be coming to
that inquiry to vouch for him. And I think disc
And knew he would be under scrutiny being a police officer,
so he chose to not come to the inquiry. Disc
but I think he also realized that he messed up
from the initial stages. Glen Taylor said to me, and

(01:11:31):
I can remember him telling you this. He said, I
can only apologize to you for what the police didn't do.

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):
Back then.

Speaker 4 (01:11:39):
John Winfield went down to the Distan's home with a document.
He went down there during his inquest and confronted disc
and said would you read to sign this? And Discan
said no, how did you know where dis can live?
I don't have that answer. It seemed very odd. I
quite no evidence to say that they were friends outside

(01:12:02):
of the investigation. Now what was in that document?

Speaker 5 (01:12:05):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
The coronial proceeding run by Karl Milvanovitch in the old
Lismore courtouse was almost over. He directed a question to
Craig Leggot.

Speaker 13 (01:12:17):
No other evidence has been called today.

Speaker 1 (01:12:20):
John's lawyer had already given his submissions on behalf of John.

Speaker 5 (01:12:25):
Craig Legatet had no more to say.

Speaker 1 (01:12:28):
And then the Deputy State Coroner directed a question to
Matt Fordham, the hard working police officer who had pulled
so much of the case together.

Speaker 13 (01:12:37):
Sergeant do you wish to respond to any matters?

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
Matt had nothing to add.

Speaker 14 (01:12:42):
I think it's important for everyone to understand a little
bit about a coroner's role, but perhaps a little bit
about the history of the position in the context of
the evidence that's unfolded in this court in the last
five days. The role of coroner is perhaps one of
the oldest judicial roles in our legal history, which we
inherited from England. The position of coroner has expanded to
the point where coroners now have an obligation under the

(01:13:04):
Coroner's Act to investigate deaths that are reported to a
coroner or suspicious deaths and to make certain statutory findings
which are requirements under the Act. Of course, in this inquest,
as we well know, there is nobody. This was not
a matter that was reported to the coroner, as most
traditional matters are. When somebody dies and there is a

(01:13:25):
suspicion attached to their death, and there is a body,
and there may be a crime seat where there is
no body, of course, it is difficult for the coroner
to make certain findings. But I am able, of course,
on the evidence to make the findings that I indicated
that I would be prepared to make yesterday, and that
is that I am satisfied on the evidence that I
have heard yesterday and over the last four or five days,

(01:13:47):
that brodenwin Joy Wingfield is in fact deceased. The fact
that she was very devoted to her children, the circumstances
in which she left without taking any clothing, without there
being any operation of her bankcout counts, the fact that
there's been no affirmative sightings or confirmed sightings or any
contact that she has made with any members of the
family satisfy me at the requisite level that she is

(01:14:10):
in fact deceased. A coroner's matter is somewhat difficult in
relation to matters where a known person may be considered
to be a person of interest. The first finding that
the coroner has to determine is that he is satisfied
that the evidence is capable of satisfying a jury beyond
reasonable doubt that a known person has committed an indictable offense.

(01:14:30):
And then the coroner has a second leak to consider
under section nineteen, and that is whether there is a
reasonable prospect that a jury would convict a known person
on the evidence. The difficulty is that under section nineteen,
I am not allowed to name a known person in
relation to applying my reasonings for that test.

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
While the Deputy State Coroner was legally constrained from stating
the obvious, there are no such constraints on me or
this podcast. The known person was, of course right there
staring back at Karl Milvanovitch, John Winfield.

Speaker 14 (01:15:06):
People sitting in this court over the last week might
feel that this is a trial. It is not a trial.
There is no defend before this court. There is no
person charge with any criminal offense. It is an inquisition,
and it is an inquiry where there are no strict
rules of evidence. There is a lot of evidence that's
been allowed into this inquest.

Speaker 13 (01:15:26):
I am prepared, however.

Speaker 14 (01:15:28):
To make this comment in relation to mister Leggat's submission.
In regard to the likelihood that Bromwin Winfield in fact
left of her own accord.

Speaker 1 (01:15:37):
Karl Milvanovitch mentioned the telephone records showing calls being made
to Country Link, an indication of Bromwin's interest in the
timetables for public transport, particularly trains.

Speaker 14 (01:15:50):
The fact that there are telephone calls to CountryLink, and
the fact that she talked in letters that about there
was going to be a change that she was going
to go away, is not necessarily inconsistent with the fact
that she still disappeared on the night of sixteen may
under circumstances which I'm not consistent with her seeking to
go away for a holiday.

Speaker 1 (01:16:09):
As you have heard earlier in the podcast, Bromman was
also making plans to host her sister, Kim Marshall, who
would be traveling from Tasmania and would have needed to
take public transport from Sydney for her trip to Lenox.
Carl then spoke of the challenges Bromwin was facing.

Speaker 14 (01:16:29):
One has to remember that in that two week period
before she disappeared on sixteen May, she was going through
perhaps the most difficult time of her life. She had
made a decision, firstly, sometime earlier to move out of
the matrimonial home. I don't think there can be any
doubt that she perceived her marriage as having come to
an end, and she had made a very perhaps bold

(01:16:50):
decision and a brave decision to move back into the
matrimonial home. She knew what the consequences of that would be.
She knew that it would involve FORHPS litigation. She knew
that it would involve emotions. She knew that possibly she
was even anticipating that it would require a reunion of
Crystal with her true father and making contact with that

(01:17:11):
part of the family. And she was planning that. She
was going through what appears to me a very difficult time.
The fact that she made notes and wrote letters is
perhaps a way in which I perceive that she tried
to rationalize all these various things that were going through
her mind. She knew solicitors were writing letters. She knew
that those letters were going to contain matters on her

(01:17:32):
instructions to her solicitor, which included that she wanted a
property settlement, that she wanted sole ownership of the family
motor vehicle, and maybe she thought this is a good
time to take the children away for a couple of
weeks while all those things are happening. It's totally consistent
with perhaps her making some comment that I'm going to
go away, and even comments like you will see a change. Well,

(01:17:56):
what about the notation in her diary Modeling and Self
Improvement Course nineteenth to twenty June, Lismore Workers Club. This
woman had plans, She had plans for the future, she
had appointments with solicitors, she was going to disconnect the
telephone at the flat, she was going to get the
car registered, And if she was going to go away,
it certainly wasn't on the night of sixteen May, with

(01:18:18):
no clothing, no suitcases, and without telling her children. I
am satisfied and I make this finding that she died
on or about sixteen May in the state of New
South Wales. I now terminate this inquest pursuant to Section nineteen,
being satisfied that the evidence is capable of satisfying a
jury beyond reasonable doubt that a known person has committed

(01:18:41):
an indictable offense, and there is a reasonable prospect that
the jury would convict the known person of an indictable offense.
May I, on behalf of my court and on behalf
of my staff, extend my personal sympathy to the family
and friends of Bronwyn joy Winfield.

Speaker 13 (01:18:58):
That ends my role as corridor in these proceedings.

Speaker 1 (01:19:03):
It also ends my role for some weeks in this
third season of the Bromwin podcast series. As you've heard,
we are now pausing production the finishing touches to this episode.
The day before its release, two subscribers were happening on
Bromwin's birthday, April twenty four, and very soon Bromwin will

(01:19:25):
have been missing for thirty two years. Does anyone seriously
believe that Bromwin was so annoyed with John or that
some mythical sugar daddy was so persuasive and well off
that this deeply devoted mother of two voluntarily stayed away
from her girls, her family all that time, thirty two

(01:19:49):
years without contact or sightings by anyone. How was such
a compelling case relegated to the too hard basket by
the Office the Director of Public Prosecutions twenty three years ago,
after Carl's inquest wrapped up. When we come back, we
will try to find out now for something different. My

(01:20:13):
talented friend Matt Condon, crime writer, author, podcaster and investigator,
and a sneak preview of his new podcast series, The
Gangster's Ghost.

Speaker 17 (01:20:26):
As a crime writer, I've always been fascinated by Stuart
John Reagan or Johnny Reagan, the psychopath's psychopath in terms
of Australian criminal history. He burnt like an Oxyuscettlen torch
through Sydney from the mid sixties until he was gunned

(01:20:46):
down by three assassins. And by chance, I've got acquainted
with a cousin of Johnny Reagan, Kelly Slater. Reagan contacted
me and said, look, we'd like to look more seriously
into our long dead relative and see whether he was
as big a monster as everyone says he was.

Speaker 18 (01:21:11):
I'm an ex police officer and cousin of Johnny Reagan.
We're looking at doing a podcast on him, the good,
the bad, the ugly, mostly the two Ladder, but his
childhood as well. We have letters and recordings that have
never been heard. Looking for help to make it work.
Kelly Slater Regan.

Speaker 17 (01:21:33):
Kelly almost as an Aside said to me, We've got
the tapes, and I had to stop and ask her
what do you mean by the tapes. The family had
possession of some secret, real to real audio tapes that
Reagan himself had recorded on his home and office phones,

(01:21:55):
making dozens and dozens of discussions with crooks.

Speaker 13 (01:21:59):
Law is.

Speaker 17 (01:22:00):
The idea of these tapes bring the voice of the
dead gangster to the listener's ears was absolutely irresistible. Reagan
was a lunatic, a maniac, a ruthless killer. He was
a gunman, a standover man, a rat with a gold tooth,

(01:22:25):
a con artist, a business genius, and a crook with
movie star good looks who had an explosive temper.

Speaker 1 (01:22:34):
They said.

Speaker 17 (01:22:35):
He murdered up to twelve people, and prior to his
death he had developed what may have been the greatest
land scam in Australian history.

Speaker 13 (01:22:46):
You shouldn't have made it chard interested in.

Speaker 8 (01:22:47):
You're lying in a third flighter.

Speaker 17 (01:22:50):
You're sitting in the same room with the ghost of
a gangster who's been dead for fifty years. He even
took a concealed miniature cassette recorder out into the streets
of King's Cross and Darlinghurst and captured conversations with other
criminals and crooked cops.

Speaker 1 (01:23:10):
Corrupt cops, one of whom I heard in the first
episode of your series.

Speaker 17 (01:23:17):
In my research over fifteen years for true crime books,
I've interviewed an amazing cast of characters. I would shoot
the breeze with Roger Rogerson about what he thought of Reagan.
This is the notorious former New South Wales detective and
convicted murderer, Roger Rogerson.

Speaker 16 (01:23:37):
You can control a badman, but you can't control a madman.

Speaker 13 (01:23:43):
I've never ever forgotten.

Speaker 17 (01:23:45):
You will soon be hearing a lot of the gangster's ghost,
as clear as if the killer himself had pulled up
a chair at your kitchen table and settle down for
a cup of tea and a chat. And now, incredibly,
the question is this was Johnny Reagan, in fact, Roger

(01:24:07):
Robinson's first kill.

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
With this story, you're dealing very closely with Kelly Reagan
and other members of the Reagan family because they hold
the keys to a lot of the information upon which
you are relying tapes and other documents, family artifacts. Reagan

(01:24:30):
was a terrible person, a monster, a psychopath, a serial killer.
How do you manage the sometimes unavoidable tension where family
members want to see their relation possibly depicted one way,

(01:24:51):
whereas you know that the truth it goes the other way.

Speaker 17 (01:24:56):
Very good question, and it's an important question for a
story like the You have a family here, relatives of
this dead gangster who want to go deeper and to
get a sharper focus on what he was actually like
Kelly Slater, Reagan becomes a sort of co pilot on
this journey. Kelly and I had a very frank discussion saying, look,

(01:25:19):
the risk here is that you discover a bigger monster
than you ever knew existed before. That's how dangerous and
monumentally violent he was. They're fully prepared, the Reagans are
fully prepared for the horrors that they might find, and indeed,
I can say they will find some on this journey.

(01:25:42):
And we've found some fascinating things, and we've found some
extraordinary color, and we've found some horrific details.

Speaker 1 (01:25:51):
The first episode was riveting. I look forward to hearing
everything else in it.

Speaker 17 (01:25:56):
Thanks so much.

Speaker 1 (01:25:57):
Adley Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas
as a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has

(01:26:19):
information which may help solve this cold case.

Speaker 5 (01:26:23):
Please contact me.

Speaker 1 (01:26:24):
Confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
You can read more about this case and see a
range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn
podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

(01:26:46):
The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,
Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,
Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Common and David Murray,
with assistance from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast
series is by Wasabi Audio and original theme music by

(01:27:10):
Slade Gibson. We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a
relation of Bromwin Winfield. We can only do this kind
of journalism with the support of our subscribers and our
major sponsors like Harvey Norman.

Speaker 5 (01:27:24):
For all of our exclusive.

Speaker 1 (01:27:26):
Stories, videos, maps, timelines and documents about this podcast and
other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet, The Teachers Trial, The
Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy and The Night Driver,
go to The Australian dot com, dot au and subscribe

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