July 4, 2024 • 65 mins
Bronwyn’s friends and loved ones reel as the revelation of Judy Singh’s sighting of what appeared to be a body wrapped in a sheet, being driven away by her estranged husband Jon Winfield in 1993, is understood.
Detectives fly north to take a statement from Judy. They drive her to her old home in Lennox Head as part of a renewed homicide investigation.
Former neighbour Murray Nolan admits deep regret about his handling of potentially game-changing information he withheld from detectives in 1993 when he regarded Jon as his surfing mate.
But as Bronwyn’s family looks forward to a possible resolution of this 31-year-old alleged murder, tensions boil over. Back in the Shire, Andy is confident he’s solved a puzzle which might provide a powerful clue to the whereabouts of Bronwyn’s body. Jon denies wrongdoing.
Read more about this case and see photographs, maps, timelines and more at bronwynpodcast.com.
If you have information which may help solve this cold case, you can contact our team confidentially by emailing bronwyn@theaustralian.com.au
If you need support, Lifeline can be reached on 13 11 14.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course
language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian News.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
You can Trust Opinions that matter. Now Ben Fordham comments.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
And now we have the bombshell witness statement from the
retired nurse Judy Seeing describing what looked like a body
in the back of a car.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
The country's leading commercial radio broadcast to Ben Fordham has
been following the Bromwyn Winfield case. We've got good history.
Ben's dad, the late Great John Fordham, was a giant
in the media and he took me under his wing
when I was a young newspaper reporter thirty five years
ago during the Teacher's pat investigation in twenty eighteen, when
(01:21):
John and Ben saw the injustice in Lynn's case, they
pulled strings at the highest levels to ensure that it
got the full attention of Mick Fuller, the then commissioner
of the New South Wales Police Force. Ben played snippets
of Judy Singh's interview with me on his top rating program.
(01:41):
Was it possible for you to actually identify him as
John Winfield when you.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Looked in, Oh yeah, was he definitely him?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Judy felt suspicious, but she didn't immediately act on it.
In the days that followed, she didn't know Bronwin was missing,
but when rumors started spreading that on when had disappeared,
Judy says she knew she had to tell someone. She
says she went to Ballona police.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
I talked to the ballon and police first, and they
took me behind the counter.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Did you form an impression then of how seriously or
not they were taking it?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Hardly? Interested?
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Hardly?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I can't understand why that would be.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Almost had to beg them to let me say something.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Did you feel better for having disclosed these things?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Now?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
No, he died recently, so and I'm taking this to
the grave.
Speaker 6 (02:43):
Always some relief when you can get something out, you know.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
What's becoming clear is that the early investigation into Bronman's
disappearance was not handled properly. Police were too quick to
believe the storyline that a mother of two had just
packed up and left and walked down on her children.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Then also told his vast audience a truth which might
surprise listeners. He revealed that the Bromwin podcast investigation.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Has been running for one month and in that time
he's not been contacted by anyone at New South Wales Police.
Nobody's reached out to him to see if he's uncovered
new information. Nobody's checked to see if maybe, just maybe
he's found evidence that could solve the mystery of who
could have killed Bronwin or what happened to her. It's
been radio silence, no calls, no emails, no inquiries, nothing
(03:34):
and that should change today.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
But at seven twenty pm on Thursday June twenty, a
couple of hours after the release of episode seven, Assistant
Commissioner of Police Mick Fitzgerald emailed to request contact details
for retired nurse Judy Singh. I immediately shared those details
with Fitzgerald. Detectives are going to be spending so time
(04:00):
with Judy Singh. Finally they should take a statement from her.
Ben Fordham had the last word.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Well done, Mick Fitzgerald, and I'll keep you updated on
this case.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
On the Nine Networks Today show, host Karl Stefanovic talked
to Madison Walsh, Bromwin's second cousin, who has been on
this case with me since the start of the podcast. Madison,
your family's been watching this.
Speaker 7 (04:27):
Yeah, for thirty one years. We have had no real
movement within this case. Nothing's happened, and our family has
felt lost.
Speaker 8 (04:38):
What is that? That must be torture?
Speaker 7 (04:40):
Oh, look, it's it's hard. I mean I didn't know
brom when she disappeared ten years before I was born. However,
I've grown up with it. I've witnessed what my family
has gone through. I know what they're still going through.
Last night, when the episode released where this new information
(05:00):
and came out, they didn't know about it, and it
was both confronting and raw to witness that and to
see how much that affected them, because at this stage
you don't think that anything more would come out.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
How are they?
Speaker 9 (05:14):
They're good.
Speaker 7 (05:14):
This is motivating for them as well, because this is
something new, something that the police can hopefully use now
to finally do something nice.
Speaker 8 (05:24):
To see Mats and all the best of the family.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Just twelve hours earlier, Maddie sat with Bromman's brother Andy
Reid and his wife Michelle in their home in the Shire.
She drove there to answer their questions and help them
listen as Jude sings account of what she saw was
played through episode seven. Andy and Michelle heard it for
the first time as the episode unfolded. Here's Maddie who
(05:51):
used her iPhone to make a recording.
Speaker 7 (05:54):
It's all very, very hard to listen to, that's for sure.
Speaker 9 (06:00):
That unbelievable that this poor lady's had to live with that. Yeah,
it's breast keys up. Then she's going to take it
to a grave.
Speaker 10 (06:09):
If you were going to bed, why would you have
your surfboard in the car?
Speaker 7 (06:15):
Well, that's what I was thinking, And then there was
like maybe he paddled out or something.
Speaker 11 (06:19):
Murray used to say to me all the time, every
time there's massive floods in the hinterland. Murray used to
fedigm religiously, religiously. He used to tell me about how
he used to he watched for the news reports, always
watching the news. I think her body's going to turn up. Yeah,
it flushed out in one of the estuaries.
Speaker 9 (06:40):
I remember. Glenn used to say to me, mate, do
you never know what will turn up?
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Michelle read aloud a message that she had just received
from the retired detective sergeant Glenn Taylor, who began a
thorough police investigation in nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 10 (06:58):
He's just said it quite stunning news coming out of
what a witness saw apparently on the night of Broman's disappearance,
and I said, yeah, we're listening to it as we speak.
Speaker 9 (07:13):
We are shattered, but hopeful.
Speaker 11 (07:16):
It doesn't even feel like belief because we've just knowned
for so long that the vastard did something that night.
Speaker 9 (07:23):
The systems just filed for so long.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Shortly before the release of the very first episode in
this podcast series, and he met with detectives led by
Nigel Warren of the Unsolved Homicide Unit, and here to
remind you is a bit from episode one.
Speaker 9 (07:43):
Basically said, well, their hands are tied.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
We can't do any more than what we've done.
Speaker 12 (07:47):
And we don't have any new evidence as it steds.
Speaker 11 (07:50):
Yeah, okay, he said, going Look, I cannot apologize enough
for how badly the original investigation was handled.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
They've got no intention of puting any more work into it.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
When you walked away with Michelle from that meeting six
weeks ago, what was your view of what they were
doing on the Roman police investigation.
Speaker 9 (08:17):
Nothing? Nothing unless someone came forward.
Speaker 10 (08:20):
Unless there was something more to add.
Speaker 11 (08:23):
He mentioned to me that they had twenty six open cases,
so there's twenty five poor people out there that.
Speaker 9 (08:34):
Are worse off than we are because we've quit.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
You given what you know, Now, what do you want
them to do?
Speaker 11 (08:44):
They need to go and speak to Juty get correct
statements like they should have done the first two times
she went there. The poor woman in ninety three, the
only night that he had access to that vehicle. Wow, wow,
like to meet her.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Have you seen the video?
Speaker 9 (09:04):
Yes?
Speaker 10 (09:05):
Yeah, that's pretty hard to look at.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 11 (09:09):
Michelle always knew something went wrong that night, but we
never really had the proof as hard as we did.
Speaker 9 (09:16):
Push diskin.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Maddie and I were in the Tuong Public Library and
Brisbane and interviewing Mel Taylor, Devin Murray's daughter.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
She worked nearby.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
She came and saw us after she finished work and
Mel was just describing what she saw as a twelve
year old going through that house mate. She's the only
person that remembers this bedstrip The beds were stripped of
their sheets.
Speaker 9 (09:48):
Yeah, I've never heard of that until Mel said it.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
What I think it shows is that even twelve year
old kids should be interviewed by cops. Would Bromwin have
let the children sleep in a stripped bed?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
That is a bed without sheets.
Speaker 9 (10:04):
Never.
Speaker 10 (10:05):
Crystal says in her statement that Lauren woke up and
went in and found a mum crying in the bedroom
and then her mum said, come on, darling, go back
to bed or whatever, and she went and tucked her.
Speaker 9 (10:20):
In and said, I'll see you in the morning.
Speaker 10 (10:23):
Yeah, So you don't tuck someone in if there's no bedding.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
How did Judy present to you?
Speaker 1 (10:31):
From what she said?
Speaker 10 (10:32):
And Kerry, Oh, totally one hundred percent telling the truth.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
Why would anyone make that up.
Speaker 10 (10:42):
She's seeing something on the night that nobody.
Speaker 9 (10:47):
Else knew about.
Speaker 11 (10:49):
There's no reason for them to fabricate anything that we've
heard tonight.
Speaker 9 (10:55):
I just feel for Judy. The poor woman has gone.
Speaker 11 (10:58):
At the police station twice and she's just been dis
garden and they haven't even taken us seriously on a
missing person's case.
Speaker 9 (11:05):
What's wrong with these people?
Speaker 10 (11:08):
I thought she was really authentic because she could be
the key to solve.
Speaker 9 (11:14):
Him what happened.
Speaker 10 (11:17):
We're very grateful, really, and we believe her wholeheartedly.
Speaker 9 (11:24):
You can't make that sort of stuff up.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
If this drive that she had witnessed was around midnight,
how does that fit with what Murray saw at ten
forty pm. What was he doing on the ten forty
pm trip?
Speaker 7 (11:41):
What I'm thinking is he filled the boot with heavy things.
Speaker 9 (11:46):
He started wiring the boot down.
Speaker 11 (11:47):
Then he's got in the car and then going shit,
the cars nearly empty.
Speaker 9 (11:52):
The last thing I had to do.
Speaker 11 (11:53):
Is put a body in his car and it's going
to run out of fuel.
Speaker 7 (11:56):
And on that trip, that first trip he made, was
trying to scope out he might put her. Got close
to petrol station, was like, I need to fill up,
fills up.
Speaker 11 (12:07):
And then he's come back with petrol cars full of petrol.
Speaker 7 (12:11):
Then goes back home and then that's when.
Speaker 8 (12:13):
He goes down grown up with her.
Speaker 11 (12:15):
Then he would have had to have come back, and
then he's come back got the kids at some stage.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Why do you think the surfboard would have been in
the car? It is an obvious question and it raises
mccarbre thoughts and ideas. Judy Singh is adamant that a
surfboard was lying in the car from the back seat
across to the front seat, and that something resembling a
body wrapped in a sheet was on the other side
(12:40):
of the back seat behind the front passenger seat.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
When John flew to Ballona in the.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Late afternoon of Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three. His
friend John Watson picked John Winfield up at the airport.
They went first to the local police station in Balin.
John went to the station to check whether there were
any orders preventing him from approaching Bromwin and the house
(13:07):
that they had lived in together until their separation. John
Winfield went in John Watson's car. John Watson and John
Winfield then went from the police station in Ballina to
pick up Jody's friend Becky McGuire, and Becky says she
witnessed John entering the house when Bromwin opened the front door.
(13:29):
A short time later, John drove Becky back to her
place in the Winfield family's Ford Falcon.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Then John returned to the house alone.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
You'll hear more about John's visit to the police station
in a later episode when we look at John's record
of interview with the former police detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor.
That interview was done in nineteen ninety eight, five years
after Bromwin's disappearance. If Judy sings witness account is accurate,
(14:01):
John's surfboard has gone into the car that night there
are creeks and water holes.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
In the Lenox Head area.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
John wouldn't have had a lot of time because he
had to get on the road to Sydney. He drove
through the night and arrived in the mid morning.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
In the Shire.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Back then, it was a good nine to eleven hour
drive depending on conditions. Lake Ainsworth, a popular swimming and
picnicking place for Lenox families and visitors, is only a
ten minute or so drive from Sandstone Crescent. Andy has
speculated that the surfboard was in the car because John
(14:42):
needed to float Bromwin's body out into the water.
Speaker 11 (14:46):
He wouldn't use the surfboard to float a body out
into the middle of a creek or something and then
be able to dump it off the board and then
come back to the house.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
At a place such as Lake Ainsworth. In Andy's mind,
his sister her body has been put into a large surfboard.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Bag with weights or blocks.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Inside it, then towed by a leg rope late at
night into the still water and rolled over the side.
The weights would take the bag down to the murky depths.
But it's only a theory, a speculation based on circumstantial evidence.
Something John vehemently denies the theory would explain the presence
(15:31):
of the surfboard. You've been through so much over the
last thirty one years. I know this podcast has been
at times pretty grueling for you because it's explored for you, Andy,
parts of your own personal life with your mom Barbara
and your stepmother Jennifer, and tensions within the family and
(15:55):
so on. How do you feel about the toll it
takes on you and Michelle.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
When this is unfolding.
Speaker 9 (16:04):
That's been pretty harrowing.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
We're strong, We're strong, and he said he understood why
Maddie and I did not tell him about Judy Singh's
revelations before they were published.
Speaker 12 (16:18):
You've got to do your job.
Speaker 11 (16:20):
Let's the podcast doesn't work if it's just a bunch
of leaked information.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I fully understand it.
Speaker 11 (16:28):
Since we first sat down with you in that cafe Clovelly,
I've lived in here.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
We are five years later, we've all got a bit
older made. You're going to have a tough night. I
hope you've nursed a beer through all this.
Speaker 10 (16:44):
So what do you think the police's obligation is.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Next, they'll make a bee line for Jude. They will
want to get a statement from her. They will want
to reconstruct what she describes. They'll go to the Sandstone
Crescent and Granite Street. They'll run cars past that house
at night with the light on in the car at
(17:10):
a slow speed that she described. They'll put something in
the back of the car so that that can be filmed,
and they'll film what they can see.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
They'll do all of those sorts of tests.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
But if they're satisfied that what she described is plausible,
they'll then have to make a further submission to the
Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. Andy and I
spoke about why people like Judy Singh came forward and
how podcasts were like a vacuum cleaner that is drawing
(17:44):
up so many potential new leads, tips from people, sources
coming out of the woodwork, and the reluctance of police
to engage with the same podcasts. They're territorial, they believe
that Bromin's all It's murder is their murder.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
And they don't like intruders.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Police are not going to be the go to for
people who are dissatisfied, who have been let down by
cops in the past, or who are just not going
to necessarily trust cops, But who are possibly going to
trust me? They just need to catch up with the
modern era. How many other missing murdered women have just
(18:30):
fallen through the cracks. The next day we heard from
(18:58):
other important people in this case. Hello, Glenn Taylor, Glenn,
Matt Condon, how are you?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Oh?
Speaker 9 (19:05):
Yeah, good Matt.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
He was shocked by what he heard.
Speaker 13 (19:10):
Well, you can't get much more serious to crime than
a murder, And to allegedly murder a young mother and
leave two children behind.
Speaker 14 (19:20):
It's just a horrendous thought. I'm sure that this information
that's now come to light would be very much a
priority in any murder investigation.
Speaker 13 (19:34):
I was actually quite stunned. We may better finally move
this investigation forward. I was appalled that so little had
been going back in ninety ninety three, and then to
hear this latest revelation that this witness duty had actually
come to bow on a police station and reported to
(19:55):
someone back in nineteen ninety three, that was just astounding.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
And then it got worse.
Speaker 13 (20:01):
Usually something of that absolute significant importance would have been
acted upon. It would have been an absolute priority to
have the lady attend the police station and with her
consent to take a statement from her, and we would
have some forensics come up and take some photographs about
(20:22):
where she was standing and how she would observe this vehicle.
Speaker 15 (20:26):
From your perspective, is an experienced homicide detective, what sort
of weight is carried by this observation by Judy singher well?
Speaker 14 (20:38):
Checking to make sure that the information is plausible and
could be corroborated by other people homicide investigations, it doesn't
matter if they're forty years old or even longer. Any
information further that comes out is absolutely crucial from what
Hidley has found from this lady. I mean, every single
(21:00):
thing that she said certainly seems plausible, and she's told
other people. It's not something that just come up as
a result of the podcast, but certainly when the initial
investigation was just so poor, We're not one person was
interviewed and there.
Speaker 13 (21:16):
Was no formal interview of the husband, and then the
whole matter was just completely shelved.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
There's red flags flying everywhere.
Speaker 12 (21:25):
I've always had.
Speaker 8 (21:26):
This investigation on the mind.
Speaker 16 (21:28):
I mean, every time anything would come up, like any
human bones, fan or something, I'm always thinking, I'm hopeful
to the family that it might be Bromling and the
media plays a very vital role in investigations, especially investigations
that have been around for a long time, and show
(21:51):
there's potential there for people that know things about unsolved
longicides to come forward.
Speaker 15 (21:58):
Back in your day, mate, there was no such thing
as a podcast, and suddenly you have this platform to
reach millions of people.
Speaker 14 (22:07):
It's wonderful that it's an opportunity for people further to
come forward.
Speaker 13 (22:12):
These are most serious crimes. There's never been any closure.
They can't go to a century and lace and failers
or grieve what did actually happen to bromwin Where is she?
The deputy state coroner, he was clearly of the view
that in.
Speaker 14 (22:30):
A diutable offense, namely murder had been committed and there
was a known person responsible.
Speaker 13 (22:37):
This is after hearing all the evidence out of a
week and numerous numerous documents.
Speaker 14 (22:42):
Statements be intended, but obviously we didn't have a statement
from this new witness duty at the time. It's important
that senior Coroner believe that there was sufficient evidence to
warrant the DPP considering a charge of murder being laid
against mister Winfield. Mister Winfield's obviously got the presumption of innocence.
(23:06):
That's there's further developments.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Here's Bromlin's half sister, Kim Marshall, who is in Hobart, Tasmania.
Kim has been doing it tough. Maddie's recording this call.
Speaker 17 (23:19):
Just say though, okay, probably nearly midnight, I decided said
I'd listened to it, felt very saddened and heartbroken. I
was beside myself, and then I did try to ring
one or two people, but when I did try to
talk to them, that made me burst into tears because
(23:40):
I don't like being needy. So I had a big
cry with Andrea and then pulled herself together and listened
to the rest of it.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Do you form a view of Julie's credibility veracity of
what she was saying?
Speaker 17 (23:56):
Yes, most definitely she was aware of her environ so
she had a physical thing going on watching a car,
But she also had an awareness about the time of
the year, the time of the evening, the type of
fauna in her view, and also her miscarriage that she
(24:17):
was worrying about. So I believe that there's so many
factors there that make her recount or her witness account
quite valid. But you know what, I'm actually not that
surprised because I always knew that there was.
Speaker 5 (24:34):
Going to be information out there. I knew from day one.
Speaker 17 (24:38):
That the police were not doing their job. I couldn't
even get a seat with Detective Discns. I always knew
there was going to be a number of key witnesses
that were out there.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
It's a small town, but my biggest thing was to
actually make sure.
Speaker 8 (24:57):
That Crystal was all right.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
But we don't talk about the podcast.
Speaker 17 (25:01):
Crystal has this way that she wishes to compartmentalize it.
She's actually an incredible person because she somehow seems to
have put lots of boundaries in place, and she's staying
the line. Crystal maintains that she will continue to keep
(25:22):
reaching out to her sisters. I know that Lauren is
not willing to engage in any conversation.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
She is not ready to talk.
Speaker 17 (25:34):
She does not want to entertain the idea that's something
of a foul play nature that involves her father.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
She doesn't want to talk about.
Speaker 17 (25:45):
That at all, and she's not willing to discuss it
with Crystal at all. And then Jody, it's just no reply,
no communication.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Kim said that while Crystal still referred to her stepfather,
John Winfield as Dad.
Speaker 17 (26:01):
She doesn't feel the wars or the connection, and it's
always Crystal that's actually wanting to be reassured or seek
reassurance that she's still part of the family. I'm more
than happy to disguise that no matter what the outcome is.
Speaker 5 (26:22):
In regards to.
Speaker 17 (26:23):
Broman's disappearance, I believe that he was a very cold
and calous parent.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
All of this, the podcast, the curiosity of the public,
and the ongoing disclosures are taking a toll.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Where Andy contact to before you have listened?
Speaker 1 (26:41):
What did he say?
Speaker 18 (26:43):
So?
Speaker 5 (26:43):
I really don't want to tell the country there?
Speaker 17 (26:46):
Okay, I don't even know if I want to do
the podcast any wolf.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Andy and Meghan are not going well either.
Speaker 17 (26:55):
Because Meg is still very upset with Andrew and Michel.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
He wants nothing to do with Megan ever. Again. I've
recommended that they both go to counseling.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Megan, I'm with Maddy.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
Oh Man Sale, I'm good.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
How are you Maddie's auntie. Meghan was unsurprised by Judy
Singh's account of having got nowhere when she went to
local police in nineteen ninety three, Megan played the episode
that featured Judy twice and she listened carefully to her story.
Speaker 19 (27:30):
Never in a million years I think this is going
to happen. I mean, whoa episode seven Nelly blew my
head off.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
I really do believe her.
Speaker 19 (27:39):
I don't really feel one hundred cent sure did she
saw from one in that car? What the hell was
wrong with the police not thinking on this information?
Speaker 2 (27:49):
As confronting?
Speaker 19 (27:51):
She comes across as one hundred percent credible to me.
Speaker 5 (27:55):
I mean, you can tell me just the emotion in
her voice. You should the keet that to.
Speaker 7 (28:00):
I did, I did, didn't tell a soul. You were
going to find out eventually, find out eventually when the
time was right, when everyone else found out. I was
on strips instructions. This is not the end, but it's
definitely the start of something else.
Speaker 5 (28:20):
What were it goes from here?
Speaker 8 (28:21):
Yeah, she tried to make people listen.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
Her friend she kept at it too.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Kerry McLean told me that she became emotional when she
listened to the episode. She followed up reading the stories
in The Australian and on the website Roman podcast dot com.
Speaker 5 (28:42):
It's emotional.
Speaker 18 (28:44):
Someone's life has been lost and the poor kids. Just
one little bit of information can uncover all that.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
It came from me and then it came from her.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yes, when do you reckon? You and her would have
last had contact probably twenty years ago.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Did she sound how you remembered her?
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Absolutely?
Speaker 20 (29:11):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
For the police to not act on it once in
nineteen ninety three, it was bad enough. But then she
goes again with a doctor from New Zealand to the
Byron Bay police.
Speaker 18 (29:24):
Did It's unbelievable. I spoke to them, I don't know
whether it was once or twice, and gave her name
and the names that I knew that she went by,
and her maiden name so they could find her.
Speaker 8 (29:39):
So we've tried.
Speaker 18 (29:41):
I don't speak negatively of the police, but in this case,
someone dropped the ball.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
It's probable that the police will want to talk to
you too.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
Yeah, I know, yes, I'm aware of that.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
If the police asked me for your contact detail, are
you okay for me to share?
Speaker 11 (30:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 18 (30:02):
Sure, But that should have happened a long long time ago.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
When lots of information is coming in during a podcast
series and then you get an email, a random email
from someone called Jude singing, you don't know the backstory,
and all she says is I saw him leaving on
the night you had the light on the car, But
she doesn't say what she saw in the car in
her email, she didn't say that. It's very easy when
you're so busy and there's so much of the material
(30:29):
coming in, you're doing interviews, you're editing and arranging your
writing to not actually reply. But because I knew about
her from you, and I it was I think Judy
undoubtedly was always going to contact me, because she contacted
me without knowing that you had already contacted me. But
(30:51):
the difference is that when she did contact me, I
knew of her and I already had had an understanding
of the backstory, and it meant that immediately she was
more credible to me.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
And that's thanks to you.
Speaker 18 (31:09):
I'm really pleased that I'm involved in it and something's happened.
It's amazing how everything sort of come together.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Murray Nolan is a perceptive and friendly bloke. He is
immediately likable and I reckon he's zen like about some things,
you know. The star of The Mentalist, Simon Baker.
Speaker 6 (31:33):
We used to go surfing together all the time. The
Legs Surfing Crew we'd all surfed together. Wow, you just
lived down the bottom on the street, and now I
see in Saint Crescent.
Speaker 21 (31:46):
In reality, Simon is one of our most successful and
in demand international actors. He has his own star on
the Hollywood Walk of Fame and was even once voted
the sexiest man on television. I mean, look around, there's
barely a soul on the beach. It's a busy day
(32:07):
growing up. This was Simon Baker's playground.
Speaker 8 (32:11):
This was your house right here, This was here. He's
still serves slangs point occasionally.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Why did you call him smiley?
Speaker 8 (32:20):
Because when is the young bloke?
Speaker 6 (32:21):
He used to walk around small all the time. He's
always this happy, a little smile on his face. The
house has been pulled down now.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Murray Nolan is keen to help this investigation. But what
you are about to hear him say in his own
words and voice is probably going to produce.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Strong reactions in some listeners.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
And Murray knows he's inviting judgment over the things that
he withheld from police in nineteen ninety three. He's got regrets.
He's describing a day he was at home. It was
very late May or early June nineteen ninety three. His
neighbor John Winfield had been to the police to report
(33:03):
Bromwin missing days earlier. As a result, Detective Graham diskin
with the less experienced officer Wayne Tenby, went to Sandstone
Crescent from the.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Police running sheets.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
It doesn't appear that they questioned any other neighbors who
knew things. The detectives only went to the door of
the property next to Bromwin and John Murray and Deb's
house and it's where they still live happily thirty one
years later.
Speaker 12 (33:32):
And Murray, I've also read your statement.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Yes, However, it seems you didn't at the time raise
any suspicion about that noise the scrape of the vehicle.
In nineteen ninety eight, Murray signed off on a written
statement to the detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor. Glenn Taylor's investigation
(33:56):
led to a brief of evidence, which went to the
then Deputy State Coroner Karl Milavanovitch for.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
A week long inquest.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Murray's statement in that brief of evidence includes key details
which Murray did not disclose to police back in nineteen
ninety three when they pulled up in Sandstone Crescent at
a time when everything was still relatively fresh and just
a fortnight or so after whatever happened on the night
of Sunday, May sixteenth. The first time I met Karl Milavanovitch,
(34:29):
it had been fifteen years since his inquest into Broman's
disappearance and presumed death, but Karl still remembered one of
Murray's disclosures. Karl clearly believed that this disclosure had weight
and potential relevance.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Here it is again from Karl.
Speaker 22 (34:49):
And there was some suggestion from a neighbor that they
heard the car reversing down the driveway and scraping on
the ground, though some suggestion there might have been something
in the boot.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
She was never found.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Now that I am back in Sandstone Crescent, dead breaks
the eyes.
Speaker 23 (35:07):
Murray is a very tolerant person and he never sees
wrong in anybody. Really, he knows John's done what he's done.
But Murray is the type of person whereas on the opposite,
like Headley.
Speaker 9 (35:16):
You wrong me and I'll wrong you.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 23 (35:18):
He's always been that way, and I guess it's either
a good or a bad nature to have.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
When she went missing, I never gave told the police
anything because he's my friend.
Speaker 8 (35:29):
I never told the police laughing all staying out of it.
Are you listening to yourself? It was that obvious to me.
It was that obvious to me that he'd killed her.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
Becauys arrived, not one she's got to miss in twenty eleven,
and I thought, well, almost stay out of this because
resting three or four days like it was that obvious.
Speaker 24 (35:54):
What about when Discin started investigating soon after she disappeared?
Speaker 8 (35:58):
And now I told him nothing. You can't speak to you.
Speaker 4 (36:02):
I don't have a memory of the day, but I
was cooking a lamb in the cockpot. Him and Timmy
dropp up here probably about eleven o'clock one morning.
Speaker 8 (36:10):
He just come inside and asking me a new questions?
Speaker 12 (36:12):
What do you remember about that conversation?
Speaker 8 (36:16):
How sure it was? I could be mistaken. I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 6 (36:19):
There's write it down on a spy on notepad they did.
Speaker 8 (36:22):
There were no formal statement, you know. I thought that
was a bit unprofessional with but Discoln They were very friendly.
John and discon were very friendly.
Speaker 4 (36:33):
How do you know that it's seeing at the back
of here they'd be having coffees or cups of tea
and sitting on their back from the andre What type
pray were you talking about?
Speaker 8 (36:43):
And this is like the.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Initial inquiry after his border miss and the detectives have
got involved.
Speaker 8 (36:48):
They just seemed to be a bit chumming.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
From his house, Murray could see the detective and his
neighbor on the verandah of the house that John built.
He said they would, in his words, yarna way for ages. Now,
good detectives would argue that this might well be tactical.
It doesn't mean that they are naive or being conned
(37:11):
by a possible murderer. Couldn't have been the really clever
detective building rapport with the murder suspect.
Speaker 8 (37:18):
That could have been.
Speaker 12 (37:19):
You say you were immediately of the view that he'd kill.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
We'll got rid of that.
Speaker 12 (37:25):
Yes, what had you decided for yourself?
Speaker 8 (37:28):
Well, I just what I'm staying out of this. He's
my friend.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
I've got to live next door to him, and I'm
going to surf with him, and just what I'm staying
out of this.
Speaker 8 (37:38):
But it was just too obvious and I was follow
you mistaken at the time.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Deb's conversation with detectives Graham Diskin and Wayne Temby occurred
separately in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
She recalled it like this.
Speaker 23 (37:52):
It was an afternoon and him and Wayne Timby were
at the front door. They didn't come in, and they
asked me a couple of questions, very little like what
I knew.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
I remember so.
Speaker 23 (38:03):
Them, can't you forensic the car? Can't you go in
and forensic the house? And they go, no, no, no,
it doesn't work like that. We can't just go in
guns a blazing and accuse him of anything.
Speaker 8 (38:12):
Just gonna actually said, this is a missing person inquiry
and not a murdering.
Speaker 23 (38:15):
That's right, a missing person inquiry. Yeah, And I'm like, nah, no,
he's done something to her, And this is what I'm
saying to them. He was very blase about the whole lot.
That's why I kept saying to him, but there's something
wrong here. You need to investigate, you need to go
and see the house. It was just like, oh, you know,
I just got to fill out these forms. And he
was literally here probably five or ten minutes. He wasn't
(38:37):
here long. I invited a minute said no, no, no, it's
all right. You didn't even come inside. I was angry
with him.
Speaker 8 (38:42):
Actually, they're going to do nothing.
Speaker 23 (38:44):
You know, she's missing they're not even going to open
the can of worms and say, right, let's dig into
this further. And if it wasn't for Glenn Taylor, that's
where it still remained today. And I remember Waying Tenby
at the time. He was just probably only a fresh
constant book back then, and he's just sort of standing
behind Disco said, and I remember he told me this.
He said, Oh, well, women do this all the time.
(39:06):
They take off, they get a bit frustrated.
Speaker 8 (39:07):
And they just go. And I said, no, she wouldn't
do that. Brahma would never leave her kids.
Speaker 23 (39:12):
I said to him, Oh, well, we're treating it like yeah,
miss in person until we have any other events. They
believed everything John had told them, and the story he
told them was that she got picked up that night
by a car. Apparently she'd gone into the bedroom, made.
Speaker 9 (39:25):
A phone call.
Speaker 8 (39:26):
Ten minutes later a car picture up.
Speaker 23 (39:28):
Because he told me this, and I said to him
at the time, well, did you see who it was? No,
did you go and check who she got in the
car with. Where were you when she left the house?
And he said, I was watching TV at the other
end of the house. I said, but John, she could
have got in the car with anybody. I can't believe
he wouldn't have even looked to see. This is the
story he was spinning to the police and to myself.
Speaker 8 (39:49):
You went home, when you come home.
Speaker 25 (39:52):
While den was talking to Discount, you didn't mind that
she was talking to Discoon.
Speaker 8 (39:58):
Not at all.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
Now, I sure would have probably told Disco at the time,
But then Discins was pretty short of me the question anyway,
like it was just like he was walked in and
said the lay next door's gone missing. There was any
signs of violence or anything. No, I never saw any violence,
and I didn't So.
Speaker 24 (40:14):
When was the first time that a detective heard about
the car rolling down the hill.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
And the lightspeaking? Offered?
Speaker 1 (40:21):
We established that it was indeed five years later, when
Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor took the case over in nineteen
ninety eight. Murray Nolan's police statement is dated September of
that year.
Speaker 24 (40:35):
Do you think that if Discot had come in, sat
you down, or asked you to come down the police
station and I really wanted to understand what had happened
and questioned you in ninety three, would you have still
been silent?
Speaker 8 (40:51):
Let me phrase your question, Sorry, what you said.
Speaker 24 (40:53):
Before, was that discin was pretty short, didn't seem terribly
interested its chuggling with John.
Speaker 12 (41:01):
But hypothetical if in fact he had asked you to
come down the station. He wanted to get a statement
from you.
Speaker 25 (41:08):
It's ninety three, it's may You've got your suspicions, but
you're also feeling some loyalty to John.
Speaker 12 (41:16):
What do you reckon you would have done then in those.
Speaker 25 (41:19):
Circumstances, if you were being pressed by the detective to
cough up some information.
Speaker 8 (41:25):
I would have told them nothing. But I just didn't
want to get involved. I thought it was just too obvious.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
Well, I just want this guy's going to get arrested
quite soon for so much evidence here against him.
Speaker 12 (41:36):
Was he intimidating you?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Not at all?
Speaker 8 (41:38):
Not at all.
Speaker 12 (41:39):
No, did you ever tell him, Hey, I hadn't talked
to a police.
Speaker 4 (41:43):
At all when memory even mentioned Bromwin between me and John,
when they've mentioned it.
Speaker 24 (41:49):
And have you had experiences with the police that has
helped sort of shape your view that you don't tell
them information about your friend.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
My dad is a detective and a lot a lot
of respect for the police. My only issue was I
just didn't want to get involved on stepping back. He's mistaken. Yes,
I realized it's a mistake now that it's I'm offul
this is so then when nothing got done, yes.
Speaker 25 (42:16):
Because it sounds like he was an acquaintance, not really
a close mate.
Speaker 8 (42:22):
Look, I wasn't.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
I wasn't staying silent to protect him. I was just
staying silent because I didn't want to get involved.
Speaker 8 (42:31):
Marry doesn't like a lot of confrontation. Allow my little world.
Speaker 25 (42:37):
Indeed, do you recall whether you told this getting in
ninety three what Murray had told you?
Speaker 8 (42:43):
And I think I did tell him that, whether I
was told dead.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Murray shared with deb that he had seen the car leave,
but he didn't share with her for some time the
most suspicious features that the car left with its lights off,
injured off, and that it scraped the ground while reversing
down the driveway.
Speaker 8 (43:05):
I wouldn't have mentioned any of that to Discan. No,
I definitely wouldn't have.
Speaker 25 (43:10):
What changed for you five years later when Glenn Taylor
became involved, Why did you talk to him?
Speaker 4 (43:15):
I could see that was going nowhere and there's injustice
been done here. When I would give a formal statement
on the truth.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Earlier, Murray disclosed that his father was a police detective,
and this made it harder for me to understand Murray's
silence when detectives Graham Diskin and Wayne Temby turned up
at Sandstone Crescent.
Speaker 12 (43:37):
Did you talk to your father about it?
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (43:40):
What did you tell him? That's home the situation in
what had happened, probably a couple of days later. Yes,
And he said it looks all he strangler. I said,
I don't think so too, because there was no blood,
There was no nothing.
Speaker 8 (43:53):
I said that. I said, what's JAILO? Is jerns a
turn or is joil a punishment? Yeah? In answer me,
But that's why I was wiring.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Up as well. What is jail?
Speaker 4 (44:05):
To put that block of that fellow up for ten
years in jail? It's probably not. It wasn't a pleasant
thing to do. And I thought, but I'm not going
to be the one who's going to do that. I'm
going to sit out of this because it was to
me it was obvious.
Speaker 12 (44:19):
Did your dad know that you were sitting out of it?
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (44:22):
Yes, he was okay, he was okay that yeah. Yeah.
In my mind it was just it was cut and right.
Speaker 12 (44:31):
But your idea is about the right thing to do.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Change.
Speaker 8 (44:34):
Since then, my ideas probably haven't changed. My idea is
just tell the truth, but.
Speaker 12 (44:40):
It is a deliberate o mission telling the truth.
Speaker 8 (44:43):
There's no deliberate omissions in that.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
No.
Speaker 12 (44:46):
I mean from ninety three, not telling anyone.
Speaker 8 (44:51):
No, I wasn't asked.
Speaker 4 (44:55):
Yeah, yeah, I wasn't ask and I was staying out
of it.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
John's reputation in the community has ebbed like the tide
at Boulders Beach.
Speaker 23 (45:07):
Well, they are calling the murder around he murder from
the time Brown went missing.
Speaker 8 (45:15):
It was ten years later to the inquest. I think
he thought you'd got away with it.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Madison Walsh and I talked about Murray's decision in nineteen
ninety three to keep his head down and his mouth shut.
Maddie has also met Murray at his home in Lennox Head,
next to Bromwin and John's house. She stared at that
house and wondered what happened inside on that night, And
(45:40):
like me, Madison finds Murray thoughtful and keen to help
this investigation, which makes his omission of what was vital
information really hard to fathom. Detective disc And came to
see him in that early stage. Mary believed that they
looked a bit interested. They weren't taking it that seriously.
(46:02):
But by the same taken Murray didn't give them information
that he had that they could have used to take
it seriously.
Speaker 7 (46:10):
It's not a big place, a lot of secrets would
be kept.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
John's car leaving with the lights off and the engine
off and was scraping on the road. That was one
of the reasons why Murray was suspicious of a murder
right back on day one. Murray didn't tell the police
that until he was interviewed five years later.
Speaker 7 (46:33):
That could have been just enough for it to be
taken seriously. Saying that he witnessed that.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
He says he knew that she'd been killed. He said,
but I just knew that she was dead.
Speaker 7 (46:49):
He's probably not the only one that thought that way
or had an inkling of a thought that early on either.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
We speculated over whether it would have made a difference that.
Speaker 7 (47:01):
Could have been enough for formal interviews to be completed.
At that time.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
You could have called sumb and said, I think we
need the homicide squad here. Those detectives are very experienced
in hardcore.
Speaker 7 (47:15):
The fact that there was no forensic investigation done on
the car, because that could have changed everything as well.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
Although Murray had told me he was not intimidated by John,
I have wondered about this. Murray was incapacitated as a
result of a very accident in the surf when a
large swell was producing heavy waves at trestles off black
Head near Ballina.
Speaker 4 (48:08):
I'd crossed my vertebrae in my back as the worst
pain of ever thought in my life.
Speaker 8 (48:12):
Pushed my spine right up into the back of your head. Oh,
it was horrible. And what did you do?
Speaker 12 (48:17):
Did you hit a sand that.
Speaker 8 (48:18):
Went over the falls and bang lan on me?
Speaker 4 (48:21):
Bun but hit a roof land on a reof crushed
it like a can possible for a couple of weeks,
and then came home and Miss Preston regrigerated.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
He was in his house in Sandstone Crescent recovering his
physical movements severely restricted, after being released from the medical
ward a day before Bronwin's disappearance. Murray was a young
dad of small children at home. Back then, John was
in excellent physical condition. He was strong and fit from surfing,
(48:52):
from his manual labor on building sites and working out
with weights in his garage, John could have seemed physical
intimidating without even trying to be.
Speaker 7 (49:03):
Debbie and Murray like, are they still in relative contact
with him or have they completely ceased communication.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
They're not enemies and they're not boosom buddies. Debbie says
she can't stand him and he won't look at her
in the eye when she sees.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Him around town.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Wow, whereas Murray says he bumps into him a lot,
mostly at the beach when they're getting ready to go.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
For a surf.
Speaker 7 (49:27):
I mean, maybe that's what works for him.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
John Winfield still lives relatively close to deb and Murray,
although John sold the house in Sandstone Crescent a quarter
of a century ago. In fact, just about everything in
Lennox's head is close, relatively.
Speaker 8 (49:46):
Literally around the corner. At five ten minutes, I can
take you there, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll take you
for a drive.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
As we drove out of Sandstone Crescent, deb raised Murray's
disclosures about him not wanting to tell police what he
saw and heard on the night of May sixteenth, nineteen
ninety three.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
So where are we going now?
Speaker 23 (50:07):
We call this the Headlands. As you can see Headlands Drive.
That's where I see John walking around here millionaires roll
I call it that. He bought a dual block, one
for himself and one for Jody. Are they good views
up here over this side there are.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
And these properties look at the ocean. Yeah they do.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
I asked deb whether she or Murray had wondered whether
his decision to hold back some information for five years
was one of the reasons the first investigation went nowhere.
Speaker 5 (50:45):
Yes and no.
Speaker 23 (50:47):
When disc and as I said, was investigating it, if
you'd like to call it.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
That, it was just like a general chit chat.
Speaker 23 (50:55):
He was giving them the benefit of the doubt really
to say that, oh, they'll do their job. Their police
officers know what they should be doing. And it all
kind of died nowhere else we could go. He was
waiting for them to really be the ones that will
or less bring it to a head or swept under
the carpet. I always get him confused, Sorry, Ledley, here
(51:15):
we are here.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yeah, he brought that block on that block.
Speaker 8 (51:19):
The house next saw that jobs it's a fortress.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
It is very odd looking.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
It had been need as of him inside.
Speaker 8 (51:28):
That's his car in the driveway.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
That's him there.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
Right, very exclusive.
Speaker 12 (51:37):
As you can.
Speaker 23 (51:37):
See sitting up there in your smug castle.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
It seemed like a terrible person.
Speaker 13 (51:44):
Don't I.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
This has weighed on you for a long time.
Speaker 23 (51:49):
Because I have a sister, and if it hadn't in
my family, I just don't know how I would be
able to handle that.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
She was a friend and a good friend at the time.
Speaker 23 (52:00):
We'd still be friends today, I know we would.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Did you ever have any disagreements?
Speaker 8 (52:05):
No, we didn't, not at all.
Speaker 23 (52:09):
I did feel so sorry for her though, she was
gone through so much heartache with him, which is why
I kipt didn't trying to encourage her to go.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
I didn't really expect it.
Speaker 23 (52:19):
All to turn out like it has.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
In the very first episode of Bromwin, you heard that
Murray still saw John most days when they would go
to Boulders Beach to check out the surf. But they
haven't talked to each other about Bromwin since way back
in the beginning thirty one years ago, and they have
not had any contact with each other over the past
month and a half. Since this podcast series, Bromwin started
(52:47):
in May twenty twenty four, John has been surfing different beaches.
While the episodes have been unfolding. He has not been
back to his favorite break Boulders for some time, and
I haven't heard again from John since he emailed me
back in May to say that Bromwin's family was afflicted
(53:07):
by mental illness. We know that he emphatically denies wrongdoing.
We need to stress this. There is a standing offer
to John to tell his side of the story in
an interview with me for this podcast. We hope that
John will choose to talk.
Speaker 26 (53:27):
There's been a development in a suspected murder of New
South Wales mother Bronwyn Winfield more than three decades ago.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
As this episode eight was being produced, detectives from Sydney's
Unsolved Homicide Unit flew north and met Judy Singh for
a lengthy sit down interview in the Tweedheads police station.
The detectives took her statement for the first time in
thirty one years. Afterwards, Judy went with police to the
(53:55):
home in Granite Street, Lennox Head where she and her
children lived. Jude saw the balcony and the deck where
she was sitting when she says she saw John Winfield
drive past in the ford falcon very late at night
with what appeared to be a body wrapped in sheets
in the back seat of the car. Jude must be
(54:19):
glad that she's finally been properly heard.
Speaker 26 (54:23):
A witness account, which was previously dismissed, is now being
considered by detectives.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
The idea that Bromwin took off to start a secret
new life with no money and somehow evaded every proof
of life check over the past thirty one years is
too far fetched to be taken seriously. It's also offensive
to all those who knew Bromwinn's remarkable dedication to her children,
(54:50):
Crystal and Lauren. Bromwin Joy Winfield, who was thirty one
when she disappeared on the night of May sixteenth, nineteen
ninety three, must be dead, but where Bromlin's remains. A
new theory has emerged and developed strength during this podcast investigation.
(55:11):
But there's a cautionary note now, it's only speculation, and
I've been down this road before with no result. In
the case of murderer Chris Dawson's concealment of his wife
Lynn's body in nineteen eighty two, the former family babysitter
who became Chris's second wife, suspected Lynn's body was close
(55:32):
to the house in Bayview on Sydney's Northern Beaches. He
is how Rebecca Hazel, who became very good friends with
Chris's second wife, described it to me when I was
investigating the case for the Teacher's Pet. This is from
one of the early episodes in that series.
Speaker 20 (55:51):
Here, she's adamant, absolutely adamant. Yep, no doubt for her.
She just seems like she's gone that block. I know
that's where she is. She looked up, she said she's
up there.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
She's somewhere up there on that block.
Speaker 20 (56:07):
For a while she could kept saying she's on the block,
and then at some point she started telling me, you know,
I do haven't checked the loose soil.
Speaker 1 (56:16):
Now, in twenty twenty four, we still don't know where
Lynn's remains are. A search of the property by police
in twenty eighteen did not shed any light on her whereabouts.
Speaker 27 (56:33):
Police have started digging for the remains of missing mum
Lynette Dawson, who disappeared thirty six years ago and has
thought to be buried in the garden of her family
home at Bayview on the Northern Beaches.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
In Bromwin's case, there were searches of the house and
backyard at Sandstone Crescent by forensics officers in two thousand
and nine when a review by Unsolved Homicide Unit detectives
was unfolding, but nothing came out of these efforts. Sixteen
years after Bromwin's disappearance. Kadava dogs have also been put
(57:07):
onto the property. Lennox Head locals have their theories in Gluis,
also known as Scruffy the Concrete, has given evidence of
what he believed was an unusually thick concrete slab in
a house John was working on around the time of
Bromwan's disappearance. Scruffy spoke to me about it when we
(57:28):
first met.
Speaker 8 (57:30):
We went to do a sort of laundry bathroom area.
Speaker 28 (57:34):
I actually said, why do you fuck the levels up here?
Speaker 2 (57:39):
Because it was thick.
Speaker 1 (57:40):
Laundry and bathroom areas don't have to be that thick
and concrete to Deer he was working there as the brickplayer.
You are going to hear more about this when we
get to the episode dealing with the evidence. At the inquest,
Scruffy got back in touch.
Speaker 2 (57:57):
What has been on your mind?
Speaker 28 (58:00):
What everyone wants to know is where's Bromwin? Yes, one
day she's there, and the next to the sign of
her and the kids went at the skill. They had
taken them down to Sydney, and then it wasn't until
they came back that all of a sudden what happened
to Bromwin and the backstory started going, well, her mother
was n absent and left him family home, and she's
following in her footsteps.
Speaker 2 (58:21):
John had been pushing to everyone.
Speaker 8 (58:23):
Brown was supposedly unstable.
Speaker 1 (58:26):
You've previously heard Deb Hall saying she's one hundred percent
sure that John killed Bromin. She suggests that John, who
emphatically denies wrongdoing, continues to live in the community because
he takes the view they can't get.
Speaker 8 (58:43):
Me because they can't find the body.
Speaker 12 (58:44):
That's why I think he lives his life like he does.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
Deb and Murray are also convinced that when John left
the house in the car on the night of May sixteenth,
nineteen ninety three, he was in a panic. Whatever happened
was not planned. Something had happened.
Speaker 23 (59:04):
He had his served body, had his bag, so he
wasn't planning on going back to Sydney that night.
Speaker 9 (59:09):
Why would you do that?
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Here's the former experienced detective Glenn Taylor, who did dozens
of interviews and worked very hard on the case for
several years from nineteen ninety eight. Glenn's investigations had a
significant impact and Bromwin would thereafter be seen as a
probable victim of murder.
Speaker 29 (59:30):
Circumstantially, I believe it's extremely likely that foul play occurred
in the house that night. John was obviously in a
bit of a panic that his wife, Wrongan, had moved
back into the home.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
Glenn described the events of the Sunday night from when
John left the house in the family car, having woken
the two girls for the drive to Sydney. You've heard
some of this before, but course of its significance and
what's to follow, it's best if it's really well understood.
Speaker 29 (01:00:06):
And upon arrival at the house in Sandstone Crescent, Lannox said,
Roman answered the door and from there within in what
we call only one sided conversation as to what then
took place. According to John, they discussed their marriage, and
according to him, she said that she wanted to have
(01:00:28):
a break from the children, and she made some mysterious
telephone call and shortly thereafter, about nine point thirty pm,
that's what he's saying, she walked out the front door,
and he heard a car pull up, but he didn't
check to see who was in the car. That was
the last time ro was ever seen. And then he
(01:00:52):
made a sudden decision then to get in his car,
get in the car that Romwin had possession of, and
then bundle the in the car. And when I'm in
bundle and then they would taken out of their beds
in the pajamas they would put in the family car
on the back seat with the family dog. I'm not
concluding anything sinister, but the neighbor shortly before eleven pm
(01:01:16):
that night observed the white Ford.
Speaker 12 (01:01:20):
Rolling down the driveway.
Speaker 29 (01:01:23):
We don't know, but it could be an influence that
was waiting the boot. And then the vehicle then rolled
down the hill still.
Speaker 12 (01:01:32):
With its lights off.
Speaker 29 (01:01:34):
And for some reason he believed that he needed to
get a receipt, which he got. Eleven oh six pm
that night, John Winfield obtained a receipt from the Airpole
service station in Ballina. He still had that receipt years later,
still in his wallet. He felt the need he had
to retain that receipt, saying he filled up with fuel
(01:01:56):
on possibly gas because it was also a gas operated
vehicle and he drove all the way down to Sydney,
arrived at his ex wife's home in Sydney with the
two children, and he said, look, rom Win's gone on
a holiday, or whereas to that effect, can you look
(01:02:17):
after the children today.
Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
One of the odd things from the night Bromwin disappeared
is John's attachment to the receipt from the Ampole service station.
He showed it to Michelle, he showed it to Andy,
he showed it to Megan when she saw him in Sydney.
He showed it to the detective Graham Diskin. In nineteen
ninety three and five years after Broman's disappearance, John produced
(01:02:44):
the receipt from his wallet and showed it to Glenn Taylor,
the then detective sergeant.
Speaker 9 (01:02:50):
It just hits me in the bat head like a
sledge Emma.
Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
In the next episode, we are going to unpack John's
highly unusual attachment too his receipt, and he believes he
has finally solved this puzzle.
Speaker 9 (01:03:06):
Bugged us for so long.
Speaker 11 (01:03:09):
Why he had to put so much emphasis on that
petrol receipt.
Speaker 9 (01:03:15):
It's a ship. What time you bought petrol? Who even
needs to know that you bought.
Speaker 11 (01:03:20):
Petrol to drive a car to Sydney.
Speaker 9 (01:03:25):
No shit, Sherlock.
Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Really, it's always bugged me, and you and I talked
about It.
Speaker 9 (01:03:31):
Makes sense to us now.
Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
And it might just be a powerful clue to Bromwin's whereabouts.
Bronwyn has written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as
(01:03:56):
a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information
which may help solve this cold case, please contact me
confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
You can read more about this case and see a
range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bromwyn
(01:04:19):
podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.
The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,
Kristin Amiert, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Bryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,
Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon and David Murray. Audio
(01:04:43):
production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and
original theme.
Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
Music by Slade Gibson.
Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation.
Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
Of Bromwin Winfield.
Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
We can only do this kind of journalism with the
support of our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey
Norman for all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines
and documents about this podcast and other podcasts, including The
Teacher's Pet, The Teacher's Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy Story, Shandy's.
Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
Legacy and The Night Driver.
Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
Go to the Australian dot com dot au and subscribe
Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course
language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian News.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
You can Trust Opinions that matter. Now Ben Fordham comments.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
And now we have the bombshell witness statement from the
retired nurse Judy Seeing describing what looked like a body
in the back of a car.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
The country's leading commercial radio broadcast to Ben Fordham has
been following the Bromwyn Winfield case. We've got good history.
Ben's dad, the late Great John Fordham, was a giant
in the media and he took me under his wing
when I was a young newspaper reporter thirty five years
ago during the Teacher's pat investigation in twenty eighteen, when
(01:21):
John and Ben saw the injustice in Lynn's case, they
pulled strings at the highest levels to ensure that it
got the full attention of Mick Fuller, the then commissioner
of the New South Wales Police Force. Ben played snippets
of Judy Singh's interview with me on his top rating program.
(01:41):
Was it possible for you to actually identify him as
John Winfield when you.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Looked in, Oh yeah, was he definitely him?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Judy felt suspicious, but she didn't immediately act on it.
In the days that followed, she didn't know Bronwin was missing,
but when rumors started spreading that on when had disappeared,
Judy says she knew she had to tell someone. She
says she went to Ballona police.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
I talked to the ballon and police first, and they
took me behind the counter.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Did you form an impression then of how seriously or
not they were taking it?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Hardly? Interested?
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Hardly?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I can't understand why that would be.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Almost had to beg them to let me say something.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Did you feel better for having disclosed these things?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Now?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
No, he died recently, so and I'm taking this to
the grave.
Speaker 6 (02:43):
Always some relief when you can get something out, you know.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
What's becoming clear is that the early investigation into Bronman's
disappearance was not handled properly. Police were too quick to
believe the storyline that a mother of two had just
packed up and left and walked down on her children.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Then also told his vast audience a truth which might
surprise listeners. He revealed that the Bromwin podcast investigation.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Has been running for one month and in that time
he's not been contacted by anyone at New South Wales Police.
Nobody's reached out to him to see if he's uncovered
new information. Nobody's checked to see if maybe, just maybe
he's found evidence that could solve the mystery of who
could have killed Bronwin or what happened to her. It's
been radio silence, no calls, no emails, no inquiries, nothing
(03:34):
and that should change today.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
But at seven twenty pm on Thursday June twenty, a
couple of hours after the release of episode seven, Assistant
Commissioner of Police Mick Fitzgerald emailed to request contact details
for retired nurse Judy Singh. I immediately shared those details
with Fitzgerald. Detectives are going to be spending so time
(04:00):
with Judy Singh. Finally they should take a statement from her.
Ben Fordham had the last word.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Well done, Mick Fitzgerald, and I'll keep you updated on
this case.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
On the Nine Networks Today show, host Karl Stefanovic talked
to Madison Walsh, Bromwin's second cousin, who has been on
this case with me since the start of the podcast. Madison,
your family's been watching this.
Speaker 7 (04:27):
Yeah, for thirty one years. We have had no real
movement within this case. Nothing's happened, and our family has
felt lost.
Speaker 8 (04:38):
What is that? That must be torture?
Speaker 7 (04:40):
Oh, look, it's it's hard. I mean I didn't know
brom when she disappeared ten years before I was born. However,
I've grown up with it. I've witnessed what my family
has gone through. I know what they're still going through.
Last night, when the episode released where this new information
(05:00):
and came out, they didn't know about it, and it
was both confronting and raw to witness that and to
see how much that affected them, because at this stage
you don't think that anything more would come out.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
How are they?
Speaker 9 (05:14):
They're good.
Speaker 7 (05:14):
This is motivating for them as well, because this is
something new, something that the police can hopefully use now
to finally do something nice.
Speaker 8 (05:24):
To see Mats and all the best of the family.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Just twelve hours earlier, Maddie sat with Bromman's brother Andy
Reid and his wife Michelle in their home in the Shire.
She drove there to answer their questions and help them
listen as Jude sings account of what she saw was
played through episode seven. Andy and Michelle heard it for
the first time as the episode unfolded. Here's Maddie who
(05:51):
used her iPhone to make a recording.
Speaker 7 (05:54):
It's all very, very hard to listen to, that's for sure.
Speaker 9 (06:00):
That unbelievable that this poor lady's had to live with that. Yeah,
it's breast keys up. Then she's going to take it
to a grave.
Speaker 10 (06:09):
If you were going to bed, why would you have
your surfboard in the car?
Speaker 7 (06:15):
Well, that's what I was thinking, And then there was
like maybe he paddled out or something.
Speaker 11 (06:19):
Murray used to say to me all the time, every
time there's massive floods in the hinterland. Murray used to
fedigm religiously, religiously. He used to tell me about how
he used to he watched for the news reports, always
watching the news. I think her body's going to turn up. Yeah,
it flushed out in one of the estuaries.
Speaker 9 (06:40):
I remember. Glenn used to say to me, mate, do
you never know what will turn up?
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Michelle read aloud a message that she had just received
from the retired detective sergeant Glenn Taylor, who began a
thorough police investigation in nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 10 (06:58):
He's just said it quite stunning news coming out of
what a witness saw apparently on the night of Broman's disappearance,
and I said, yeah, we're listening to it as we speak.
Speaker 9 (07:13):
We are shattered, but hopeful.
Speaker 11 (07:16):
It doesn't even feel like belief because we've just knowned
for so long that the vastard did something that night.
Speaker 9 (07:23):
The systems just filed for so long.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Shortly before the release of the very first episode in
this podcast series, and he met with detectives led by
Nigel Warren of the Unsolved Homicide Unit, and here to
remind you is a bit from episode one.
Speaker 9 (07:43):
Basically said, well, their hands are tied.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
We can't do any more than what we've done.
Speaker 12 (07:47):
And we don't have any new evidence as it steds.
Speaker 11 (07:50):
Yeah, okay, he said, going Look, I cannot apologize enough
for how badly the original investigation was handled.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
They've got no intention of puting any more work into it.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
When you walked away with Michelle from that meeting six
weeks ago, what was your view of what they were
doing on the Roman police investigation.
Speaker 9 (08:17):
Nothing? Nothing unless someone came forward.
Speaker 10 (08:20):
Unless there was something more to add.
Speaker 11 (08:23):
He mentioned to me that they had twenty six open cases,
so there's twenty five poor people out there that.
Speaker 9 (08:34):
Are worse off than we are because we've quit.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
You given what you know, Now, what do you want
them to do?
Speaker 11 (08:44):
They need to go and speak to Juty get correct
statements like they should have done the first two times
she went there. The poor woman in ninety three, the
only night that he had access to that vehicle. Wow, wow,
like to meet her.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Have you seen the video?
Speaker 9 (09:04):
Yes?
Speaker 10 (09:05):
Yeah, that's pretty hard to look at.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 11 (09:09):
Michelle always knew something went wrong that night, but we
never really had the proof as hard as we did.
Speaker 9 (09:16):
Push diskin.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Maddie and I were in the Tuong Public Library and
Brisbane and interviewing Mel Taylor, Devin Murray's daughter.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
She worked nearby.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
She came and saw us after she finished work and
Mel was just describing what she saw as a twelve
year old going through that house mate. She's the only
person that remembers this bedstrip The beds were stripped of
their sheets.
Speaker 9 (09:48):
Yeah, I've never heard of that until Mel said it.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
What I think it shows is that even twelve year
old kids should be interviewed by cops. Would Bromwin have
let the children sleep in a stripped bed?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
That is a bed without sheets.
Speaker 9 (10:04):
Never.
Speaker 10 (10:05):
Crystal says in her statement that Lauren woke up and
went in and found a mum crying in the bedroom
and then her mum said, come on, darling, go back
to bed or whatever, and she went and tucked her.
Speaker 9 (10:20):
In and said, I'll see you in the morning.
Speaker 10 (10:23):
Yeah, So you don't tuck someone in if there's no bedding.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
How did Judy present to you?
Speaker 1 (10:31):
From what she said?
Speaker 10 (10:32):
And Kerry, Oh, totally one hundred percent telling the truth.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
Why would anyone make that up.
Speaker 10 (10:42):
She's seeing something on the night that nobody.
Speaker 9 (10:47):
Else knew about.
Speaker 11 (10:49):
There's no reason for them to fabricate anything that we've
heard tonight.
Speaker 9 (10:55):
I just feel for Judy. The poor woman has gone.
Speaker 11 (10:58):
At the police station twice and she's just been dis
garden and they haven't even taken us seriously on a
missing person's case.
Speaker 9 (11:05):
What's wrong with these people?
Speaker 10 (11:08):
I thought she was really authentic because she could be
the key to solve.
Speaker 9 (11:14):
Him what happened.
Speaker 10 (11:17):
We're very grateful, really, and we believe her wholeheartedly.
Speaker 9 (11:24):
You can't make that sort of stuff up.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
If this drive that she had witnessed was around midnight,
how does that fit with what Murray saw at ten
forty pm. What was he doing on the ten forty
pm trip?
Speaker 7 (11:41):
What I'm thinking is he filled the boot with heavy things.
Speaker 9 (11:46):
He started wiring the boot down.
Speaker 11 (11:47):
Then he's got in the car and then going shit,
the cars nearly empty.
Speaker 9 (11:52):
The last thing I had to do.
Speaker 11 (11:53):
Is put a body in his car and it's going
to run out of fuel.
Speaker 7 (11:56):
And on that trip, that first trip he made, was
trying to scope out he might put her. Got close
to petrol station, was like, I need to fill up,
fills up.
Speaker 11 (12:07):
And then he's come back with petrol cars full of petrol.
Speaker 7 (12:11):
Then goes back home and then that's when.
Speaker 8 (12:13):
He goes down grown up with her.
Speaker 11 (12:15):
Then he would have had to have come back, and
then he's come back got the kids at some stage.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Why do you think the surfboard would have been in
the car? It is an obvious question and it raises
mccarbre thoughts and ideas. Judy Singh is adamant that a
surfboard was lying in the car from the back seat
across to the front seat, and that something resembling a
body wrapped in a sheet was on the other side
(12:40):
of the back seat behind the front passenger seat.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
When John flew to Ballona in the.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Late afternoon of Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three. His
friend John Watson picked John Winfield up at the airport.
They went first to the local police station in Balin.
John went to the station to check whether there were
any orders preventing him from approaching Bromwin and the house
(13:07):
that they had lived in together until their separation. John
Winfield went in John Watson's car. John Watson and John
Winfield then went from the police station in Ballina to
pick up Jody's friend Becky McGuire, and Becky says she
witnessed John entering the house when Bromwin opened the front door.
(13:29):
A short time later, John drove Becky back to her
place in the Winfield family's Ford Falcon.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Then John returned to the house alone.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
You'll hear more about John's visit to the police station
in a later episode when we look at John's record
of interview with the former police detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor.
That interview was done in nineteen ninety eight, five years
after Bromwin's disappearance. If Judy sings witness account is accurate,
(14:01):
John's surfboard has gone into the car that night there
are creeks and water holes.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
In the Lenox Head area.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
John wouldn't have had a lot of time because he
had to get on the road to Sydney. He drove
through the night and arrived in the mid morning.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
In the Shire.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Back then, it was a good nine to eleven hour
drive depending on conditions. Lake Ainsworth, a popular swimming and
picnicking place for Lenox families and visitors, is only a
ten minute or so drive from Sandstone Crescent. Andy has
speculated that the surfboard was in the car because John
(14:42):
needed to float Bromwin's body out into the water.
Speaker 11 (14:46):
He wouldn't use the surfboard to float a body out
into the middle of a creek or something and then
be able to dump it off the board and then
come back to the house.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
At a place such as Lake Ainsworth. In Andy's mind,
his sister her body has been put into a large surfboard.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Bag with weights or blocks.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Inside it, then towed by a leg rope late at
night into the still water and rolled over the side.
The weights would take the bag down to the murky depths.
But it's only a theory, a speculation based on circumstantial evidence.
Something John vehemently denies the theory would explain the presence
(15:31):
of the surfboard. You've been through so much over the
last thirty one years. I know this podcast has been
at times pretty grueling for you because it's explored for you, Andy,
parts of your own personal life with your mom Barbara
and your stepmother Jennifer, and tensions within the family and
(15:55):
so on. How do you feel about the toll it
takes on you and Michelle.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
When this is unfolding.
Speaker 9 (16:04):
That's been pretty harrowing.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
We're strong, We're strong, and he said he understood why
Maddie and I did not tell him about Judy Singh's
revelations before they were published.
Speaker 12 (16:18):
You've got to do your job.
Speaker 11 (16:20):
Let's the podcast doesn't work if it's just a bunch
of leaked information.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I fully understand it.
Speaker 11 (16:28):
Since we first sat down with you in that cafe Clovelly,
I've lived in here.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
We are five years later, we've all got a bit
older made. You're going to have a tough night. I
hope you've nursed a beer through all this.
Speaker 10 (16:44):
So what do you think the police's obligation is.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Next, they'll make a bee line for Jude. They will
want to get a statement from her. They will want
to reconstruct what she describes. They'll go to the Sandstone
Crescent and Granite Street. They'll run cars past that house
at night with the light on in the car at
(17:10):
a slow speed that she described. They'll put something in
the back of the car so that that can be filmed,
and they'll film what they can see.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
They'll do all of those sorts of tests.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
But if they're satisfied that what she described is plausible,
they'll then have to make a further submission to the
Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. Andy and I
spoke about why people like Judy Singh came forward and
how podcasts were like a vacuum cleaner that is drawing
(17:44):
up so many potential new leads, tips from people, sources
coming out of the woodwork, and the reluctance of police
to engage with the same podcasts. They're territorial, they believe
that Bromin's all It's murder is their murder.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
And they don't like intruders.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Police are not going to be the go to for
people who are dissatisfied, who have been let down by
cops in the past, or who are just not going
to necessarily trust cops, But who are possibly going to
trust me? They just need to catch up with the
modern era. How many other missing murdered women have just
(18:30):
fallen through the cracks. The next day we heard from
(18:58):
other important people in this case. Hello, Glenn Taylor, Glenn,
Matt Condon, how are you?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Oh?
Speaker 9 (19:05):
Yeah, good Matt.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
He was shocked by what he heard.
Speaker 13 (19:10):
Well, you can't get much more serious to crime than
a murder, And to allegedly murder a young mother and
leave two children behind.
Speaker 14 (19:20):
It's just a horrendous thought. I'm sure that this information
that's now come to light would be very much a
priority in any murder investigation.
Speaker 13 (19:34):
I was actually quite stunned. We may better finally move
this investigation forward. I was appalled that so little had
been going back in ninety ninety three, and then to
hear this latest revelation that this witness duty had actually
come to bow on a police station and reported to
(19:55):
someone back in nineteen ninety three, that was just astounding.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
And then it got worse.
Speaker 13 (20:01):
Usually something of that absolute significant importance would have been
acted upon. It would have been an absolute priority to
have the lady attend the police station and with her
consent to take a statement from her, and we would
have some forensics come up and take some photographs about
(20:22):
where she was standing and how she would observe this vehicle.
Speaker 15 (20:26):
From your perspective, is an experienced homicide detective, what sort
of weight is carried by this observation by Judy singher well?
Speaker 14 (20:38):
Checking to make sure that the information is plausible and
could be corroborated by other people homicide investigations, it doesn't
matter if they're forty years old or even longer. Any
information further that comes out is absolutely crucial from what
Hidley has found from this lady. I mean, every single
(21:00):
thing that she said certainly seems plausible, and she's told
other people. It's not something that just come up as
a result of the podcast, but certainly when the initial
investigation was just so poor, We're not one person was
interviewed and there.
Speaker 13 (21:16):
Was no formal interview of the husband, and then the
whole matter was just completely shelved.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
There's red flags flying everywhere.
Speaker 12 (21:25):
I've always had.
Speaker 8 (21:26):
This investigation on the mind.
Speaker 16 (21:28):
I mean, every time anything would come up, like any
human bones, fan or something, I'm always thinking, I'm hopeful
to the family that it might be Bromling and the
media plays a very vital role in investigations, especially investigations
that have been around for a long time, and show
(21:51):
there's potential there for people that know things about unsolved
longicides to come forward.
Speaker 15 (21:58):
Back in your day, mate, there was no such thing
as a podcast, and suddenly you have this platform to
reach millions of people.
Speaker 14 (22:07):
It's wonderful that it's an opportunity for people further to
come forward.
Speaker 13 (22:12):
These are most serious crimes. There's never been any closure.
They can't go to a century and lace and failers
or grieve what did actually happen to bromwin Where is she?
The deputy state coroner, he was clearly of the view
that in.
Speaker 14 (22:30):
A diutable offense, namely murder had been committed and there
was a known person responsible.
Speaker 13 (22:37):
This is after hearing all the evidence out of a
week and numerous numerous documents.
Speaker 14 (22:42):
Statements be intended, but obviously we didn't have a statement
from this new witness duty at the time. It's important
that senior Coroner believe that there was sufficient evidence to
warrant the DPP considering a charge of murder being laid
against mister Winfield. Mister Winfield's obviously got the presumption of innocence.
(23:06):
That's there's further developments.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Here's Bromlin's half sister, Kim Marshall, who is in Hobart, Tasmania.
Kim has been doing it tough. Maddie's recording this call.
Speaker 17 (23:19):
Just say though, okay, probably nearly midnight, I decided said
I'd listened to it, felt very saddened and heartbroken. I
was beside myself, and then I did try to ring
one or two people, but when I did try to
talk to them, that made me burst into tears because
(23:40):
I don't like being needy. So I had a big
cry with Andrea and then pulled herself together and listened
to the rest of it.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Do you form a view of Julie's credibility veracity of
what she was saying?
Speaker 17 (23:56):
Yes, most definitely she was aware of her environ so
she had a physical thing going on watching a car,
But she also had an awareness about the time of
the year, the time of the evening, the type of
fauna in her view, and also her miscarriage that she
(24:17):
was worrying about. So I believe that there's so many
factors there that make her recount or her witness account
quite valid. But you know what, I'm actually not that
surprised because I always knew that there was.
Speaker 5 (24:34):
Going to be information out there. I knew from day one.
Speaker 17 (24:38):
That the police were not doing their job. I couldn't
even get a seat with Detective Discns. I always knew
there was going to be a number of key witnesses
that were out there.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
It's a small town, but my biggest thing was to
actually make sure.
Speaker 8 (24:57):
That Crystal was all right.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
But we don't talk about the podcast.
Speaker 17 (25:01):
Crystal has this way that she wishes to compartmentalize it.
She's actually an incredible person because she somehow seems to
have put lots of boundaries in place, and she's staying
the line. Crystal maintains that she will continue to keep
(25:22):
reaching out to her sisters. I know that Lauren is
not willing to engage in any conversation.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
She is not ready to talk.
Speaker 17 (25:34):
She does not want to entertain the idea that's something
of a foul play nature that involves her father.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
She doesn't want to talk about.
Speaker 17 (25:45):
That at all, and she's not willing to discuss it
with Crystal at all. And then Jody, it's just no reply,
no communication.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Kim said that while Crystal still referred to her stepfather,
John Winfield as Dad.
Speaker 17 (26:01):
She doesn't feel the wars or the connection, and it's
always Crystal that's actually wanting to be reassured or seek
reassurance that she's still part of the family. I'm more
than happy to disguise that no matter what the outcome is.
Speaker 5 (26:22):
In regards to.
Speaker 17 (26:23):
Broman's disappearance, I believe that he was a very cold
and calous parent.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
All of this, the podcast, the curiosity of the public,
and the ongoing disclosures are taking a toll.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Where Andy contact to before you have listened?
Speaker 1 (26:41):
What did he say?
Speaker 18 (26:43):
So?
Speaker 5 (26:43):
I really don't want to tell the country there?
Speaker 17 (26:46):
Okay, I don't even know if I want to do
the podcast any wolf.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Andy and Meghan are not going well either.
Speaker 17 (26:55):
Because Meg is still very upset with Andrew and Michel.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
He wants nothing to do with Megan ever. Again. I've
recommended that they both go to counseling.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Megan, I'm with Maddy.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
Oh Man Sale, I'm good.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
How are you Maddie's auntie. Meghan was unsurprised by Judy
Singh's account of having got nowhere when she went to
local police in nineteen ninety three, Megan played the episode
that featured Judy twice and she listened carefully to her story.
Speaker 19 (27:30):
Never in a million years I think this is going
to happen. I mean, whoa episode seven Nelly blew my
head off.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
I really do believe her.
Speaker 19 (27:39):
I don't really feel one hundred cent sure did she
saw from one in that car? What the hell was
wrong with the police not thinking on this information?
Speaker 2 (27:49):
As confronting?
Speaker 19 (27:51):
She comes across as one hundred percent credible to me.
Speaker 5 (27:55):
I mean, you can tell me just the emotion in
her voice. You should the keet that to.
Speaker 7 (28:00):
I did, I did, didn't tell a soul. You were
going to find out eventually, find out eventually when the
time was right, when everyone else found out. I was
on strips instructions. This is not the end, but it's
definitely the start of something else.
Speaker 5 (28:20):
What were it goes from here?
Speaker 8 (28:21):
Yeah, she tried to make people listen.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
Her friend she kept at it too.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Kerry McLean told me that she became emotional when she
listened to the episode. She followed up reading the stories
in The Australian and on the website Roman podcast dot com.
Speaker 5 (28:42):
It's emotional.
Speaker 18 (28:44):
Someone's life has been lost and the poor kids. Just
one little bit of information can uncover all that.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
It came from me and then it came from her.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yes, when do you reckon? You and her would have
last had contact probably twenty years ago.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Did she sound how you remembered her?
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Absolutely?
Speaker 20 (29:11):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
For the police to not act on it once in
nineteen ninety three, it was bad enough. But then she
goes again with a doctor from New Zealand to the
Byron Bay police.
Speaker 18 (29:24):
Did It's unbelievable. I spoke to them, I don't know
whether it was once or twice, and gave her name
and the names that I knew that she went by,
and her maiden name so they could find her.
Speaker 8 (29:39):
So we've tried.
Speaker 18 (29:41):
I don't speak negatively of the police, but in this case,
someone dropped the ball.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
It's probable that the police will want to talk to
you too.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
Yeah, I know, yes, I'm aware of that.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
If the police asked me for your contact detail, are
you okay for me to share?
Speaker 11 (30:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 18 (30:02):
Sure, But that should have happened a long long time ago.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
When lots of information is coming in during a podcast
series and then you get an email, a random email
from someone called Jude singing, you don't know the backstory,
and all she says is I saw him leaving on
the night you had the light on the car, But
she doesn't say what she saw in the car in
her email, she didn't say that. It's very easy when
you're so busy and there's so much of the material
(30:29):
coming in, you're doing interviews, you're editing and arranging your
writing to not actually reply. But because I knew about
her from you, and I it was I think Judy
undoubtedly was always going to contact me, because she contacted
me without knowing that you had already contacted me. But
(30:51):
the difference is that when she did contact me, I
knew of her and I already had had an understanding
of the backstory, and it meant that immediately she was
more credible to me.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
And that's thanks to you.
Speaker 18 (31:09):
I'm really pleased that I'm involved in it and something's happened.
It's amazing how everything sort of come together.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Murray Nolan is a perceptive and friendly bloke. He is
immediately likable and I reckon he's zen like about some things,
you know. The star of The Mentalist, Simon Baker.
Speaker 6 (31:33):
We used to go surfing together all the time. The
Legs Surfing Crew we'd all surfed together. Wow, you just
lived down the bottom on the street, and now I
see in Saint Crescent.
Speaker 21 (31:46):
In reality, Simon is one of our most successful and
in demand international actors. He has his own star on
the Hollywood Walk of Fame and was even once voted
the sexiest man on television. I mean, look around, there's
barely a soul on the beach. It's a busy day
(32:07):
growing up. This was Simon Baker's playground.
Speaker 8 (32:11):
This was your house right here, This was here. He's
still serves slangs point occasionally.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Why did you call him smiley?
Speaker 8 (32:20):
Because when is the young bloke?
Speaker 6 (32:21):
He used to walk around small all the time. He's
always this happy, a little smile on his face. The
house has been pulled down now.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Murray Nolan is keen to help this investigation. But what
you are about to hear him say in his own
words and voice is probably going to produce.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Strong reactions in some listeners.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
And Murray knows he's inviting judgment over the things that
he withheld from police in nineteen ninety three. He's got regrets.
He's describing a day he was at home. It was
very late May or early June nineteen ninety three. His
neighbor John Winfield had been to the police to report
(33:03):
Bromwin missing days earlier. As a result, Detective Graham diskin
with the less experienced officer Wayne Tenby, went to Sandstone
Crescent from the.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Police running sheets.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
It doesn't appear that they questioned any other neighbors who
knew things. The detectives only went to the door of
the property next to Bromwin and John Murray and Deb's
house and it's where they still live happily thirty one
years later.
Speaker 12 (33:32):
And Murray, I've also read your statement.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Yes, However, it seems you didn't at the time raise
any suspicion about that noise the scrape of the vehicle.
In nineteen ninety eight, Murray signed off on a written
statement to the detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor. Glenn Taylor's investigation
(33:56):
led to a brief of evidence, which went to the
then Deputy State Coroner Karl Milavanovitch for.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
A week long inquest.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Murray's statement in that brief of evidence includes key details
which Murray did not disclose to police back in nineteen
ninety three when they pulled up in Sandstone Crescent at
a time when everything was still relatively fresh and just
a fortnight or so after whatever happened on the night
of Sunday, May sixteenth. The first time I met Karl Milavanovitch,
(34:29):
it had been fifteen years since his inquest into Broman's
disappearance and presumed death, but Karl still remembered one of
Murray's disclosures. Karl clearly believed that this disclosure had weight
and potential relevance.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Here it is again from Karl.
Speaker 22 (34:49):
And there was some suggestion from a neighbor that they
heard the car reversing down the driveway and scraping on
the ground, though some suggestion there might have been something
in the boot.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
She was never found.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Now that I am back in Sandstone Crescent, dead breaks
the eyes.
Speaker 23 (35:07):
Murray is a very tolerant person and he never sees
wrong in anybody. Really, he knows John's done what he's done.
But Murray is the type of person whereas on the opposite,
like Headley.
Speaker 9 (35:16):
You wrong me and I'll wrong you.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 23 (35:18):
He's always been that way, and I guess it's either
a good or a bad nature to have.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
When she went missing, I never gave told the police
anything because he's my friend.
Speaker 8 (35:29):
I never told the police laughing all staying out of it.
Are you listening to yourself? It was that obvious to me.
It was that obvious to me that he'd killed her.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
Becauys arrived, not one she's got to miss in twenty eleven,
and I thought, well, almost stay out of this because
resting three or four days like it was that obvious.
Speaker 24 (35:54):
What about when Discin started investigating soon after she disappeared?
Speaker 8 (35:58):
And now I told him nothing. You can't speak to you.
Speaker 4 (36:02):
I don't have a memory of the day, but I
was cooking a lamb in the cockpot. Him and Timmy
dropp up here probably about eleven o'clock one morning.
Speaker 8 (36:10):
He just come inside and asking me a new questions?
Speaker 12 (36:12):
What do you remember about that conversation?
Speaker 8 (36:16):
How sure it was? I could be mistaken. I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 6 (36:19):
There's write it down on a spy on notepad they did.
Speaker 8 (36:22):
There were no formal statement, you know. I thought that
was a bit unprofessional with but Discoln They were very friendly.
John and discon were very friendly.
Speaker 4 (36:33):
How do you know that it's seeing at the back
of here they'd be having coffees or cups of tea
and sitting on their back from the andre What type
pray were you talking about?
Speaker 8 (36:43):
And this is like the.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Initial inquiry after his border miss and the detectives have
got involved.
Speaker 8 (36:48):
They just seemed to be a bit chumming.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
From his house, Murray could see the detective and his
neighbor on the verandah of the house that John built.
He said they would, in his words, yarna way for ages. Now,
good detectives would argue that this might well be tactical.
It doesn't mean that they are naive or being conned
(37:11):
by a possible murderer. Couldn't have been the really clever
detective building rapport with the murder suspect.
Speaker 8 (37:18):
That could have been.
Speaker 12 (37:19):
You say you were immediately of the view that he'd kill.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
We'll got rid of that.
Speaker 12 (37:25):
Yes, what had you decided for yourself?
Speaker 8 (37:28):
Well, I just what I'm staying out of this. He's
my friend.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
I've got to live next door to him, and I'm
going to surf with him, and just what I'm staying
out of this.
Speaker 8 (37:38):
But it was just too obvious and I was follow
you mistaken at the time.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Deb's conversation with detectives Graham Diskin and Wayne Temby occurred
separately in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
She recalled it like this.
Speaker 23 (37:52):
It was an afternoon and him and Wayne Timby were
at the front door. They didn't come in, and they
asked me a couple of questions, very little like what
I knew.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
I remember so.
Speaker 23 (38:03):
Them, can't you forensic the car? Can't you go in
and forensic the house? And they go, no, no, no,
it doesn't work like that. We can't just go in
guns a blazing and accuse him of anything.
Speaker 8 (38:12):
Just gonna actually said, this is a missing person inquiry
and not a murdering.
Speaker 23 (38:15):
That's right, a missing person inquiry. Yeah, And I'm like, nah, no,
he's done something to her, And this is what I'm
saying to them. He was very blase about the whole lot.
That's why I kept saying to him, but there's something
wrong here. You need to investigate, you need to go
and see the house. It was just like, oh, you know,
I just got to fill out these forms. And he
was literally here probably five or ten minutes. He wasn't
(38:37):
here long. I invited a minute said no, no, no, it's
all right. You didn't even come inside. I was angry
with him.
Speaker 8 (38:42):
Actually, they're going to do nothing.
Speaker 23 (38:44):
You know, she's missing they're not even going to open
the can of worms and say, right, let's dig into
this further. And if it wasn't for Glenn Taylor, that's
where it still remained today. And I remember Waying Tenby
at the time. He was just probably only a fresh
constant book back then, and he's just sort of standing
behind Disco said, and I remember he told me this.
He said, Oh, well, women do this all the time.
(39:06):
They take off, they get a bit frustrated.
Speaker 8 (39:07):
And they just go. And I said, no, she wouldn't
do that. Brahma would never leave her kids.
Speaker 23 (39:12):
I said to him, Oh, well, we're treating it like yeah,
miss in person until we have any other events. They
believed everything John had told them, and the story he
told them was that she got picked up that night
by a car. Apparently she'd gone into the bedroom, made.
Speaker 9 (39:25):
A phone call.
Speaker 8 (39:26):
Ten minutes later a car picture up.
Speaker 23 (39:28):
Because he told me this, and I said to him
at the time, well, did you see who it was? No,
did you go and check who she got in the
car with. Where were you when she left the house?
And he said, I was watching TV at the other
end of the house. I said, but John, she could
have got in the car with anybody. I can't believe
he wouldn't have even looked to see. This is the
story he was spinning to the police and to myself.
Speaker 8 (39:49):
You went home, when you come home.
Speaker 25 (39:52):
While den was talking to Discount, you didn't mind that
she was talking to Discoon.
Speaker 8 (39:58):
Not at all.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
Now, I sure would have probably told Disco at the time,
But then Discins was pretty short of me the question anyway,
like it was just like he was walked in and
said the lay next door's gone missing. There was any
signs of violence or anything. No, I never saw any violence,
and I didn't So.
Speaker 24 (40:14):
When was the first time that a detective heard about
the car rolling down the hill.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
And the lightspeaking? Offered?
Speaker 1 (40:21):
We established that it was indeed five years later, when
Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor took the case over in nineteen
ninety eight. Murray Nolan's police statement is dated September of
that year.
Speaker 24 (40:35):
Do you think that if Discot had come in, sat
you down, or asked you to come down the police
station and I really wanted to understand what had happened
and questioned you in ninety three, would you have still
been silent?
Speaker 8 (40:51):
Let me phrase your question, Sorry, what you said.
Speaker 24 (40:53):
Before, was that discin was pretty short, didn't seem terribly
interested its chuggling with John.
Speaker 12 (41:01):
But hypothetical if in fact he had asked you to
come down the station. He wanted to get a statement
from you.
Speaker 25 (41:08):
It's ninety three, it's may You've got your suspicions, but
you're also feeling some loyalty to John.
Speaker 12 (41:16):
What do you reckon you would have done then in those.
Speaker 25 (41:19):
Circumstances, if you were being pressed by the detective to
cough up some information.
Speaker 8 (41:25):
I would have told them nothing. But I just didn't
want to get involved. I thought it was just too obvious.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
Well, I just want this guy's going to get arrested
quite soon for so much evidence here against him.
Speaker 12 (41:36):
Was he intimidating you?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Not at all?
Speaker 8 (41:38):
Not at all.
Speaker 12 (41:39):
No, did you ever tell him, Hey, I hadn't talked
to a police.
Speaker 4 (41:43):
At all when memory even mentioned Bromwin between me and John,
when they've mentioned it.
Speaker 24 (41:49):
And have you had experiences with the police that has
helped sort of shape your view that you don't tell
them information about your friend.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
My dad is a detective and a lot a lot
of respect for the police. My only issue was I
just didn't want to get involved on stepping back. He's mistaken. Yes,
I realized it's a mistake now that it's I'm offul
this is so then when nothing got done, yes.
Speaker 25 (42:16):
Because it sounds like he was an acquaintance, not really
a close mate.
Speaker 8 (42:22):
Look, I wasn't.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
I wasn't staying silent to protect him. I was just
staying silent because I didn't want to get involved.
Speaker 8 (42:31):
Marry doesn't like a lot of confrontation. Allow my little world.
Speaker 25 (42:37):
Indeed, do you recall whether you told this getting in
ninety three what Murray had told you?
Speaker 8 (42:43):
And I think I did tell him that, whether I
was told dead.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Murray shared with deb that he had seen the car leave,
but he didn't share with her for some time the
most suspicious features that the car left with its lights off,
injured off, and that it scraped the ground while reversing
down the driveway.
Speaker 8 (43:05):
I wouldn't have mentioned any of that to Discan. No,
I definitely wouldn't have.
Speaker 25 (43:10):
What changed for you five years later when Glenn Taylor
became involved, Why did you talk to him?
Speaker 4 (43:15):
I could see that was going nowhere and there's injustice
been done here. When I would give a formal statement
on the truth.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Earlier, Murray disclosed that his father was a police detective,
and this made it harder for me to understand Murray's
silence when detectives Graham Diskin and Wayne Temby turned up
at Sandstone Crescent.
Speaker 12 (43:37):
Did you talk to your father about it?
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (43:40):
What did you tell him? That's home the situation in
what had happened, probably a couple of days later. Yes,
And he said it looks all he strangler. I said,
I don't think so too, because there was no blood,
There was no nothing.
Speaker 8 (43:53):
I said that. I said, what's JAILO? Is jerns a
turn or is joil a punishment? Yeah? In answer me,
But that's why I was wiring.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Up as well. What is jail?
Speaker 4 (44:05):
To put that block of that fellow up for ten
years in jail? It's probably not. It wasn't a pleasant
thing to do. And I thought, but I'm not going
to be the one who's going to do that. I'm
going to sit out of this because it was to
me it was obvious.
Speaker 12 (44:19):
Did your dad know that you were sitting out of it?
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (44:22):
Yes, he was okay, he was okay that yeah. Yeah.
In my mind it was just it was cut and right.
Speaker 12 (44:31):
But your idea is about the right thing to do.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Change.
Speaker 8 (44:34):
Since then, my ideas probably haven't changed. My idea is
just tell the truth, but.
Speaker 12 (44:40):
It is a deliberate o mission telling the truth.
Speaker 8 (44:43):
There's no deliberate omissions in that.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
No.
Speaker 12 (44:46):
I mean from ninety three, not telling anyone.
Speaker 8 (44:51):
No, I wasn't asked.
Speaker 4 (44:55):
Yeah, yeah, I wasn't ask and I was staying out
of it.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
John's reputation in the community has ebbed like the tide
at Boulders Beach.
Speaker 23 (45:07):
Well, they are calling the murder around he murder from
the time Brown went missing.
Speaker 8 (45:15):
It was ten years later to the inquest. I think
he thought you'd got away with it.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Madison Walsh and I talked about Murray's decision in nineteen
ninety three to keep his head down and his mouth shut.
Maddie has also met Murray at his home in Lennox Head,
next to Bromwin and John's house. She stared at that
house and wondered what happened inside on that night, And
(45:40):
like me, Madison finds Murray thoughtful and keen to help
this investigation, which makes his omission of what was vital
information really hard to fathom. Detective disc And came to
see him in that early stage. Mary believed that they
looked a bit interested. They weren't taking it that seriously.
(46:02):
But by the same taken Murray didn't give them information
that he had that they could have used to take
it seriously.
Speaker 7 (46:10):
It's not a big place, a lot of secrets would
be kept.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
John's car leaving with the lights off and the engine
off and was scraping on the road. That was one
of the reasons why Murray was suspicious of a murder
right back on day one. Murray didn't tell the police
that until he was interviewed five years later.
Speaker 7 (46:33):
That could have been just enough for it to be
taken seriously. Saying that he witnessed that.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
He says he knew that she'd been killed. He said,
but I just knew that she was dead.
Speaker 7 (46:49):
He's probably not the only one that thought that way
or had an inkling of a thought that early on either.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
We speculated over whether it would have made a difference that.
Speaker 7 (47:01):
Could have been enough for formal interviews to be completed.
At that time.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
You could have called sumb and said, I think we
need the homicide squad here. Those detectives are very experienced
in hardcore.
Speaker 7 (47:15):
The fact that there was no forensic investigation done on
the car, because that could have changed everything as well.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
Although Murray had told me he was not intimidated by John,
I have wondered about this. Murray was incapacitated as a
result of a very accident in the surf when a
large swell was producing heavy waves at trestles off black
Head near Ballina.
Speaker 4 (48:08):
I'd crossed my vertebrae in my back as the worst
pain of ever thought in my life.
Speaker 8 (48:12):
Pushed my spine right up into the back of your head. Oh,
it was horrible. And what did you do?
Speaker 12 (48:17):
Did you hit a sand that.
Speaker 8 (48:18):
Went over the falls and bang lan on me?
Speaker 4 (48:21):
Bun but hit a roof land on a reof crushed
it like a can possible for a couple of weeks,
and then came home and Miss Preston regrigerated.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
He was in his house in Sandstone Crescent recovering his
physical movements severely restricted, after being released from the medical
ward a day before Bronwin's disappearance. Murray was a young
dad of small children at home. Back then, John was
in excellent physical condition. He was strong and fit from surfing,
(48:52):
from his manual labor on building sites and working out
with weights in his garage, John could have seemed physical
intimidating without even trying to be.
Speaker 7 (49:03):
Debbie and Murray like, are they still in relative contact
with him or have they completely ceased communication.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
They're not enemies and they're not boosom buddies. Debbie says
she can't stand him and he won't look at her
in the eye when she sees.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Him around town.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Wow, whereas Murray says he bumps into him a lot,
mostly at the beach when they're getting ready to go.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
For a surf.
Speaker 7 (49:27):
I mean, maybe that's what works for him.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
John Winfield still lives relatively close to deb and Murray,
although John sold the house in Sandstone Crescent a quarter
of a century ago. In fact, just about everything in
Lennox's head is close, relatively.
Speaker 8 (49:46):
Literally around the corner. At five ten minutes, I can
take you there, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll take you
for a drive.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
As we drove out of Sandstone Crescent, deb raised Murray's
disclosures about him not wanting to tell police what he
saw and heard on the night of May sixteenth, nineteen
ninety three.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
So where are we going now?
Speaker 23 (50:07):
We call this the Headlands. As you can see Headlands Drive.
That's where I see John walking around here millionaires roll
I call it that. He bought a dual block, one
for himself and one for Jody. Are they good views
up here over this side there are.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
And these properties look at the ocean. Yeah they do.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
I asked deb whether she or Murray had wondered whether
his decision to hold back some information for five years
was one of the reasons the first investigation went nowhere.
Speaker 5 (50:45):
Yes and no.
Speaker 23 (50:47):
When disc and as I said, was investigating it, if
you'd like to call it.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
That, it was just like a general chit chat.
Speaker 23 (50:55):
He was giving them the benefit of the doubt really
to say that, oh, they'll do their job. Their police
officers know what they should be doing. And it all
kind of died nowhere else we could go. He was
waiting for them to really be the ones that will
or less bring it to a head or swept under
the carpet. I always get him confused, Sorry, Ledley, here
(51:15):
we are here.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yeah, he brought that block on that block.
Speaker 8 (51:19):
The house next saw that jobs it's a fortress.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
It is very odd looking.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
It had been need as of him inside.
Speaker 8 (51:28):
That's his car in the driveway.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
That's him there.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
Right, very exclusive.
Speaker 12 (51:37):
As you can.
Speaker 23 (51:37):
See sitting up there in your smug castle.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
It seemed like a terrible person.
Speaker 13 (51:44):
Don't I.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
This has weighed on you for a long time.
Speaker 23 (51:49):
Because I have a sister, and if it hadn't in
my family, I just don't know how I would be
able to handle that.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
She was a friend and a good friend at the time.
Speaker 23 (52:00):
We'd still be friends today, I know we would.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Did you ever have any disagreements?
Speaker 8 (52:05):
No, we didn't, not at all.
Speaker 23 (52:09):
I did feel so sorry for her though, she was
gone through so much heartache with him, which is why
I kipt didn't trying to encourage her to go.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
I didn't really expect it.
Speaker 23 (52:19):
All to turn out like it has.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
In the very first episode of Bromwin, you heard that
Murray still saw John most days when they would go
to Boulders Beach to check out the surf. But they
haven't talked to each other about Bromwin since way back
in the beginning thirty one years ago, and they have
not had any contact with each other over the past
month and a half. Since this podcast series, Bromwin started
(52:47):
in May twenty twenty four, John has been surfing different beaches.
While the episodes have been unfolding. He has not been
back to his favorite break Boulders for some time, and
I haven't heard again from John since he emailed me
back in May to say that Bromwin's family was afflicted
(53:07):
by mental illness. We know that he emphatically denies wrongdoing.
We need to stress this. There is a standing offer
to John to tell his side of the story in
an interview with me for this podcast. We hope that
John will choose to talk.
Speaker 26 (53:27):
There's been a development in a suspected murder of New
South Wales mother Bronwyn Winfield more than three decades ago.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
As this episode eight was being produced, detectives from Sydney's
Unsolved Homicide Unit flew north and met Judy Singh for
a lengthy sit down interview in the Tweedheads police station.
The detectives took her statement for the first time in
thirty one years. Afterwards, Judy went with police to the
(53:55):
home in Granite Street, Lennox Head where she and her
children lived. Jude saw the balcony and the deck where
she was sitting when she says she saw John Winfield
drive past in the ford falcon very late at night
with what appeared to be a body wrapped in sheets
in the back seat of the car. Jude must be
(54:19):
glad that she's finally been properly heard.
Speaker 26 (54:23):
A witness account, which was previously dismissed, is now being
considered by detectives.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
The idea that Bromwin took off to start a secret
new life with no money and somehow evaded every proof
of life check over the past thirty one years is
too far fetched to be taken seriously. It's also offensive
to all those who knew Bromwinn's remarkable dedication to her children,
(54:50):
Crystal and Lauren. Bromwin Joy Winfield, who was thirty one
when she disappeared on the night of May sixteenth, nineteen
ninety three, must be dead, but where Bromlin's remains. A
new theory has emerged and developed strength during this podcast investigation.
(55:11):
But there's a cautionary note now, it's only speculation, and
I've been down this road before with no result. In
the case of murderer Chris Dawson's concealment of his wife
Lynn's body in nineteen eighty two, the former family babysitter
who became Chris's second wife, suspected Lynn's body was close
(55:32):
to the house in Bayview on Sydney's Northern Beaches. He
is how Rebecca Hazel, who became very good friends with
Chris's second wife, described it to me when I was
investigating the case for the Teacher's Pet. This is from
one of the early episodes in that series.
Speaker 20 (55:51):
Here, she's adamant, absolutely adamant. Yep, no doubt for her.
She just seems like she's gone that block. I know
that's where she is. She looked up, she said she's
up there.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
She's somewhere up there on that block.
Speaker 20 (56:07):
For a while she could kept saying she's on the block,
and then at some point she started telling me, you know,
I do haven't checked the loose soil.
Speaker 1 (56:16):
Now, in twenty twenty four, we still don't know where
Lynn's remains are. A search of the property by police
in twenty eighteen did not shed any light on her whereabouts.
Speaker 27 (56:33):
Police have started digging for the remains of missing mum
Lynette Dawson, who disappeared thirty six years ago and has
thought to be buried in the garden of her family
home at Bayview on the Northern Beaches.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
In Bromwin's case, there were searches of the house and
backyard at Sandstone Crescent by forensics officers in two thousand
and nine when a review by Unsolved Homicide Unit detectives
was unfolding, but nothing came out of these efforts. Sixteen
years after Bromwin's disappearance. Kadava dogs have also been put
(57:07):
onto the property. Lennox Head locals have their theories in Gluis,
also known as Scruffy the Concrete, has given evidence of
what he believed was an unusually thick concrete slab in
a house John was working on around the time of
Bromwan's disappearance. Scruffy spoke to me about it when we
(57:28):
first met.
Speaker 8 (57:30):
We went to do a sort of laundry bathroom area.
Speaker 28 (57:34):
I actually said, why do you fuck the levels up here?
Speaker 2 (57:39):
Because it was thick.
Speaker 1 (57:40):
Laundry and bathroom areas don't have to be that thick
and concrete to Deer he was working there as the brickplayer.
You are going to hear more about this when we
get to the episode dealing with the evidence. At the inquest,
Scruffy got back in touch.
Speaker 2 (57:57):
What has been on your mind?
Speaker 28 (58:00):
What everyone wants to know is where's Bromwin? Yes, one
day she's there, and the next to the sign of
her and the kids went at the skill. They had
taken them down to Sydney, and then it wasn't until
they came back that all of a sudden what happened
to Bromwin and the backstory started going, well, her mother
was n absent and left him family home, and she's
following in her footsteps.
Speaker 2 (58:21):
John had been pushing to everyone.
Speaker 8 (58:23):
Brown was supposedly unstable.
Speaker 1 (58:26):
You've previously heard Deb Hall saying she's one hundred percent
sure that John killed Bromin. She suggests that John, who
emphatically denies wrongdoing, continues to live in the community because
he takes the view they can't get.
Speaker 8 (58:43):
Me because they can't find the body.
Speaker 12 (58:44):
That's why I think he lives his life like he does.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
Deb and Murray are also convinced that when John left
the house in the car on the night of May sixteenth,
nineteen ninety three, he was in a panic. Whatever happened
was not planned. Something had happened.
Speaker 23 (59:04):
He had his served body, had his bag, so he
wasn't planning on going back to Sydney that night.
Speaker 9 (59:09):
Why would you do that?
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Here's the former experienced detective Glenn Taylor, who did dozens
of interviews and worked very hard on the case for
several years from nineteen ninety eight. Glenn's investigations had a
significant impact and Bromwin would thereafter be seen as a
probable victim of murder.
Speaker 29 (59:30):
Circumstantially, I believe it's extremely likely that foul play occurred
in the house that night. John was obviously in a
bit of a panic that his wife, Wrongan, had moved
back into the home.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
Glenn described the events of the Sunday night from when
John left the house in the family car, having woken
the two girls for the drive to Sydney. You've heard
some of this before, but course of its significance and
what's to follow, it's best if it's really well understood.
Speaker 29 (01:00:06):
And upon arrival at the house in Sandstone Crescent, Lannox said,
Roman answered the door and from there within in what
we call only one sided conversation as to what then
took place. According to John, they discussed their marriage, and
according to him, she said that she wanted to have
(01:00:28):
a break from the children, and she made some mysterious
telephone call and shortly thereafter, about nine point thirty pm,
that's what he's saying, she walked out the front door,
and he heard a car pull up, but he didn't
check to see who was in the car. That was
the last time ro was ever seen. And then he
(01:00:52):
made a sudden decision then to get in his car,
get in the car that Romwin had possession of, and
then bundle the in the car. And when I'm in
bundle and then they would taken out of their beds
in the pajamas they would put in the family car
on the back seat with the family dog. I'm not
concluding anything sinister, but the neighbor shortly before eleven pm
(01:01:16):
that night observed the white Ford.
Speaker 12 (01:01:20):
Rolling down the driveway.
Speaker 29 (01:01:23):
We don't know, but it could be an influence that
was waiting the boot. And then the vehicle then rolled
down the hill still.
Speaker 12 (01:01:32):
With its lights off.
Speaker 29 (01:01:34):
And for some reason he believed that he needed to
get a receipt, which he got. Eleven oh six pm
that night, John Winfield obtained a receipt from the Airpole
service station in Ballina. He still had that receipt years later,
still in his wallet. He felt the need he had
to retain that receipt, saying he filled up with fuel
(01:01:56):
on possibly gas because it was also a gas operated
vehicle and he drove all the way down to Sydney,
arrived at his ex wife's home in Sydney with the
two children, and he said, look, rom Win's gone on
a holiday, or whereas to that effect, can you look
(01:02:17):
after the children today.
Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
One of the odd things from the night Bromwin disappeared
is John's attachment to the receipt from the Ampole service station.
He showed it to Michelle, he showed it to Andy,
he showed it to Megan when she saw him in Sydney.
He showed it to the detective Graham Diskin. In nineteen
ninety three and five years after Broman's disappearance, John produced
(01:02:44):
the receipt from his wallet and showed it to Glenn Taylor,
the then detective sergeant.
Speaker 9 (01:02:50):
It just hits me in the bat head like a
sledge Emma.
Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
In the next episode, we are going to unpack John's
highly unusual attachment too his receipt, and he believes he
has finally solved this puzzle.
Speaker 9 (01:03:06):
Bugged us for so long.
Speaker 11 (01:03:09):
Why he had to put so much emphasis on that
petrol receipt.
Speaker 9 (01:03:15):
It's a ship. What time you bought petrol? Who even
needs to know that you bought.
Speaker 11 (01:03:20):
Petrol to drive a car to Sydney.
Speaker 9 (01:03:25):
No shit, Sherlock.
Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Really, it's always bugged me, and you and I talked
about It.
Speaker 9 (01:03:31):
Makes sense to us now.
Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
And it might just be a powerful clue to Bromwin's whereabouts.
Bronwyn has written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as
(01:03:56):
a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information
which may help solve this cold case, please contact me
confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
You can read more about this case and see a
range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bromwyn
(01:04:19):
podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.
The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,
Kristin Amiert, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Bryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,
Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon and David Murray. Audio
(01:04:43):
production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and
original theme.
Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
Music by Slade Gibson.
Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation.
Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
Of Bromwin Winfield.
Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
We can only do this kind of journalism with the
support of our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey
Norman for all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines
and documents about this podcast and other podcasts, including The
Teacher's Pet, The Teacher's Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy Story, Shandy's.
Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
Legacy and The Night Driver.
Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
Go to the Australian dot com dot au and subscribe
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