July 13, 2024 • 42 mins
Cocaine Inc. hosts Fiona, David and Stephen answer your questions about the drug business and how they made the series.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hi there, it's Fiona Hamilton here, chief reporter at the Times.
Thanks for listening to Cocaine Nick, our investigation into the
cocaine business from the coca farmers to international money laundering networks.
If you haven't listened to all eight episodes, this episode
will have spoilers for the whole series, so press pause
(00:29):
on this and come back after listening to it all.
And for those who have, we'll be answering your questions today,
so thanks for getting in touch. Joining me are my
two fellow reporters on this series, Stephen Drill from News
Corp Australia. Hey they're Stephen. Hey, not too bad, thank you.
(00:53):
And here we also have David Collins, Northern editor at
The Sunday Times. Hi you, David, Hi, Fiola, Hi guys.
How's everyone doing.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I'm good, good, thanks. It's lovely evening here in Melbourne.
I feel a little bit like I'm in London today.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Well, well it's a wet, wet day. You're here in London,
which it has been for several days in a row.
So how's it going in the North, David.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I can confirm a hat trick. It's raining in Manchester,
but it always rains in Manchester. It literally always rains
in Manchester. It's just a standard day.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Here, right. So I think today we're going to get
straight into listeners questions. We've had some really good questions
and we've had some voice notes, so let's start with
one of them. We're going to play the clip to you.
This is Anne in Sheffield in the north of England.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Is she going to say I really liked the podcast?
Apart from that, David Collins, he's quite annoying.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
How did you know the first question?
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Hi guys, I've been really enjoying your podcast and just
heard you shout out for questions, So here's one for you.
I've been wondering what happens to the cocaine and all
the things when they get seized, like money and weapons?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Where does it all end up?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So as asking what happens to the illegal items like cocaine,
cash and weapons that get seized by the authorities, Steven,
I'd like to go to you first on this one.
Is this something you spoke to the authorities about?
Speaker 5 (02:19):
Yeah, I've actually been in a warehouse in an Australian
capital city. I won't say exactly where it is because
there are places all around the country where there's millions
of dollars worth of cars which are being stored. So
these are criminals cars and the police they call them restrained.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
They're not seized.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
They're restrained until a huse criminals go through the courts
and then those cars, if they are actually found to
be process of crime, they get sold and that money
goes towards crime prevention. So that's just cars, but there's
also real estate that gets seized, like millions of dollars
worth of houses, and then the cocaine itself.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
There's actually a bit of an issue with that.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
A lot of times they want to try and stop
cocaine from getting to Australia because it costs quite a
bit of money to dispose of, like actually getting rid
of the cocaine itself and some of those drugs is
quite expensive.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Well, actually, that's interesting because I found an amazing story
in Antwerp from a few years back where they have
to burn all the coke that they're seizing, and they
were seizing dozens and dozens of tons of coke and
the gangs were actually trying to steal it back before
they could get the chance to burn it all because
it was not the quickest process, and so the authorities
(03:33):
there were trying to thwart midnight raids by armed gangs
into warehouses, and they had to move all the product
into high security warehouses and put on armed guards themselves.
So it added a sort of another aspect to an
already pretty momentous task that they were that they were addressing.
(03:54):
And David yourself, when you were investigating the Sunshine and
Lollipops money laundering group, did the National Crime Agency tell
you anything about what happens to the cash they can seize.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
I think it's exactly the same. It's taken under the
Proceeds of Crime Act and it can be put back
into law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So that's with the.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Cash and then the cocaine. It's interesting someone was telling
me that one of the issues with cocaine is it
doesn't burn very well. I don't know if you guys
have ever heard that, but apparently cocaine like they put
it in these incinerators, but it's actually quite hard to burn,
so it takes a long time to do and it's
(04:35):
expensive as well, so they only do it at certain
times when they've i think, built up a certain amount
of it that they can then put through for kind
of I think for expenses reasons.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, and presumably just finding the space to be able
to do something like that. It's a pretty big endeavor
when you're talking about huge, huge stashes of illegal drugs.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Yeah, totally. I mean I was reading this mad story
where there was a country, I think it was Ecuador,
where they'd see so much of the stuff they couldn't
literally burn it in the because there wasn't enough time
and the incinerators in the country they just couldn't manage
the volume. So they went to the UN Office of
(05:19):
Drugs and Crime and said, what do we do with
olie coke? And basically the UN gave them this recipe
to make it into concrete, so you end up with
this like cocaine paste, where you can like there's literally
buildings in Ecuador apparently built with like blocks which have
cocaine in them, and it's a way to ma I've
(05:43):
never heard of that before.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
That's a new version of cocaine Briggs.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Okay, So on to the next question. This one is
from Tabby in Sydney. Thanks Tabby. Why do the reporters
go to such dangerous places to do this kind of work?
And not just leave it to the police. So Stephen,
what do you make of that question?
Speaker 5 (06:05):
That's a really good question, and it's one that I've
had to sort of talk to my family about. When
I went to Columbia, I didn't actually tell my mum.
I just said I'm just going to the US, and
I disappeared for a couple of weeks and Tyler after
I got back. But we have to do these stories
because it actually brings to life, really what is happening
(06:26):
with the cocaine trade and what are the real the
victims of it? And without knowing what these stories are,
people who go out on their Saturday night and take
cocaine and think, oh, it's a victim's crime. They'll never
know And look, this may not change anyone's behavior, but
if you don't actually try, then nothing changes at all.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
And also I thought what was really a very interesting
aspect of your reporting, not only the human cost in
Latin America and the way the trade works, but also
sometimes the police put a lot of gloss on their
siezures and the impact that they're having and the reality
is somewhat different. And I think without journalists going and
taking risks like such as what you've done and telling
(07:09):
those stories. We can't really leave the whole narrative to
them alone.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, and that's the hard thing.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
It does take a lot of time and effort to
get these trips going, and they're hard to organize. But
you do need to be there on the ground to
talk to people when that's not just a press release,
when you can actually speak to people directly.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
What did your mom say when you told her the truth?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, she was like she was a bit confused. She's
aady too, so.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
She was like, ah, I mean I did Actually I
got a second life insurance policy to be quite honest,
because I was just like, well, you never know, just
because we went in helicopters as well. And yeah, she
wasn't super happy. Well I was like, yeah, it's fine.
But then when I actually did go, she was not
super happy either. But it's going to be done.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Sure you're around now, you bum from going back to Columbia.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
No, I bought like lots of T shirts.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
I bought T shirts from back and really brought calf
for ones from the market there to buy off the kids.
So I was all right, but yes, I think I'm
barn from Columbia for a little.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
While and David, you went to Dubai. Can you tell
us a little bit more about the challenges of reporting
there and why you went there yourself and didn't just
tell the authorities in Dubai what you'd found and leave
them to crack on.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah, I mean, I guess it's the same, similar to
what Stevens just said. You know, I do think with
this sort of report, you've got to be there. You've
got to be on the ground, You've got to be
speaking to people. You know, there's a lot of reasons
for that. You know, you get the truth from the
person's mouth if you do that, rather than through press
releases or kind of through a PR office. But also
(08:49):
it brings the story to life. You know, you can
kind of cover the story of cocaine from quite a
dry academic point of view and like a policy point
of view, which always just think the power of journalism
is in storytelling and telling something in an engaging way.
We're not just talking about law enforcement and what they're
(09:10):
doing in Columbia. We're hearing from them, you know, we're
not just talking about corrupt port workers in Rotterdam. You know,
you're with one who's telling us and I do think
there's a power in that. Specifically on Dubai, I didn't
necessarily feel at risk, you know, or in danger as such.
(09:32):
It was more kind of the danger came from being
identified by the UA government as a reporter kind of
doing undercover work. There's not many media organizations have done
that sort of work in Dubai, so you know, somebody's
told me early on. It was one of our foreign correspondents.
Dubai feels safe and everything's great until it's not. And
(09:55):
that was kind of in the head a lot. It's
kind of one of those where, yeah, it's all fine,
great tourists go every year, it's not a problem until
a police officer taps you on the shoulder and says,
are you recording something that was always in our mind?
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I think it really shows the importance of being there
and actually probably leads us quite nicely into our next question,
where we're going to stay in Australia for a question
from Toby in Adelaide, who asks did you think about
glamorizing crime when you were making the podcast and is
that always a risk of this kind of podcast? So
(10:31):
I might start this one off. I've covered crime for
many years, and I think that that's probably a consideration
in most of the stories that we do've always been
mindful that you don't want to glorify the people behind
these crimes. But like we've been talking about, it's a balance.
You've got to get the information out there, you've got
to tell the stories, and you've got to make the
podcast as interesting and as engaging as you possibly can.
(10:54):
But I think that's why we made a decision right
from the beginning that we're not going to just look
at the violence. We're going to step back, We're going
to look at the business structure, how the whole business
operates globally. Felt that that could be a constructive way
to look at the industry and see if that would
offer you insight. And I thought a good example probably
of that is actually, David your staff, your brilliant episode
(11:17):
on Ellie Edwards. Now you didn't go into the glorification
of gangs behind that case. It was a really carefully
done episode on the terrible human cost behind their crimes.
Was that something that you really took seriously as well?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
I mean, I think those things as we know, you know,
we've all reported on crime for a long time and
it's kind of you know, I think as long as
you do it, you've always got the back in mind
that you know, the victim you make it victim lad
or you always have the victims in mind, and certainly
with that episode, you know, it's about giving Tim a voice.
(11:52):
How the gangs work themselves is of interest to us,
isn't it. We're talking about the structure of them and
how they work economically and how they make their money.
But I think, yeah, totally, You're right. It's about striking
a balance. It's about not glorifying the lifestyle that comes
with it. And I thought actually in one of the
(12:13):
episodes where Paul Walmsley, who was one of Liverpool's biggest
drug dealers, you know, I asked him how many drug
dealers out of one hundred do you think get away
with it? And he said none, which I thought was
an amazing answer because I was just like, Wow, you know,
do you really think that is that? Yeah? None? Not
saying it always catches.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Up and you're always looking behind you waiting for it
to catch up. Yeah, and what about you, Steven.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
That was one of my major concerns with this because
it is such a big project and I mean, if
you look at shows on Netflix like NACo's or Griselda
or those sort of things, it's almost gratuitous violence, and
that's what I sort of wanted to.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Try to avoid.
Speaker 5 (12:54):
And one of the interviews that I was sort of
most moved by was when we spoke to Jose Fernando
Kabaha Raider, the police officer in Colombia who lost his
legs to a landmine, and that interview is probably one
of the best interviews I've done in my twenty year
journalism career. I actually was almost moved to tears when
I was speaking to him, because he's just so positive
(13:16):
when he's got every right to not be positive.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
He had every right to be angry, and.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
He sort of managed to, sort of as best he could,
move on from it, but it just struck me. He
put a pretty good positive spin on it when I
spoke to him. But when I was having lunch with
a couple of other police a few days later in Colombia,
I mentioned that I'd spoken to him, and they actually
were there that day. They were his colleagues on that raid,
(13:41):
and the looks on their faces as they explained what happened,
it was just horrendous. This guy was like white and
it was five years later he was just yeah, he
said they were under heavy gunfire after the bland mine
went off and it went on for about half an
hour following, and just getting that insight into exit ex
actually what it's really like for people and for police
(14:02):
officers there, and it was just pretty humbling.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, And I think telling stories from that perspective and
really avoiding the glorification and just showing that human cost
is so important. I don't know if it's true of Australia.
There's a real debate about this in Britain at the moment,
and we see that with dramatization of some crimes. So
and you get a whole spectrum. You get the kind
(14:27):
of the true crime, you know, which really feels like
it's glorifying stuff, but then there's some really thoughtful productions.
It's totally away from the drugs trade. But there was
an it and drama about the Yorkshire Ripper. It was
several episodes. It barely mentioned Peter Sutcliffe until the last episode,
and it was all about the victims and the police
officers and the police investigation. I thought it was a
(14:48):
really interesting narrative change actually, and perhaps people are getting
a bit sick of these things being exaggerated and glorified
and victims being made victims over and over again in
the retelling of their stories. And I think that's something
that we really tried to avoid here and do in
a sensitive way.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
It's interesting, isn't it with true crime. True crime is
not necessarily a bad thing as long as there's a
public interest to it. Oh, it doesn't go too far
in the glorification. But if you can ask yourself what
the public interest is, which I think we could all
answer with this podcast in different ways, then you know
that's a good test.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Absolutely, let's jump straight into another question. We've got another
voice note, and this time it's from Kathy in Sydney.
Speaker 6 (15:36):
Hey, guys, I'm listening from Australia. I really enjoyed the podcast.
It's actually got me questioning a little bit this war
on drugs that are always hearing about in the media,
and we're hearing about it from the place too. I'm
wondering now the police telling you guys anything different than
what we're hearing in the public through the media about
the war on drugs, and is the media responsible for
(15:58):
making it seem like this kind of war drugs is
the only option or that it's working, because it kind
of doesn't seem like it is.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
What do you reckon? So we've all covered crime for
a while, we've got our fair share of contacts. Steven,
do you want to take that one first?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah? I think this is a.
Speaker 5 (16:16):
Difficult one to answer, because the war on drug clear
isn't working because you can still buy drugs everywhere here
in Australia, and I presume it's the same in the UK,
but it was when I was there a few years ago.
But I think one of the things that would suggest
that the police are doing something in Australia is that
it costs so much here. It's about three hundred dollars
a gram at least for cocaine in Australia. Sometimes some
(16:39):
people say they pay five hundred dollars, which is about what.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Three three hundred quid. It's a fair bit of money.
So it's restricting some of the.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
Supply and keeping those prices high, which means that people
are using a bit less of it.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
But I think we're never going to stop organized crime.
Speaker 5 (16:55):
There's always going to be somebody who is wanting to
make cash when people are willing to pay sort of
top dollar. It's about trying to reduce the number of
sort of key figures. I mean, because I would rather
one hundred drug dealers with a million dollars each than
one drug dealer with one hundred million dollars. And what
we've seen in the last sort of ten years or
(17:16):
so is that there's fewer and fewer bigger players and
that raises bigger problems of corruption and whether they can
affect politics here in Australia.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, that's really interesting. And I mean when I speak
to my contacts in the police in wider law enforcement
about the war on drugs and they're talking privately, I mean,
I think they're proud of some of their operations, the
way that they're utilizing technology and data and thinking of
more complex ways to try and track gangs and thwart gangs.
(17:47):
But there's definitely an acceptance that it really is a
game of whack a mole and it's a problem that
is infinitely bigger than the police, and that until people
stop using these drugs, or there's some major development that
curtails the trade, or there's some I don't know, breakthrough
in policy that it will really be ever thus, and
(18:10):
I do think they're very resigned to that, and that's
why almost invariably when you interview someone about this stuff,
they will always make that point that they can't stop it.
I mean, is that your experience as well, David?
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Yeah, I'd say that's pretty fair. It's slightly different to Australia,
isn't it, in that the cost of cocaine a gram,
says still is fifty sixty quid, which is, although it's
not cheap, it's probably not as expensive as in Australia,
but then it has to go a lot further, doesn't
(18:44):
it out to Australia from South America, so the cost
is added on as a positive. The one thing I
do think the UK is good at is control over
money because we've got quite strict money laundering laws. It
is difficult to launder money, you know, for criminals in
(19:06):
the UK it's not easy. They can get the drugs in,
they can sell them, but what they do you do
with the money, of even sticking cash and suitcases to
go out to debay with it. That's quite a cumbersome
thing to do, isn't it. If you could put all
those millions into the UK banking system then they would.
So it's kind of in a weird way, it does
show that it's working. And when I speak to law enforcement,
(19:29):
you know, for example, banks are very good at flagging
when people are coming in with large amounts of money.
Just on this story, I spoke to different hat and
gardens gold dealers just to see how tight it is,
and they were saying that they don't even take some
of them don't even take cash anymore because the banks
(19:49):
won't accept it. I do think that we do get
some of it right.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Well, absolutely, And then it's about the different radical ways
I suppose in which that could eventually be tackled, which
leads me nicely into another voice. Note this one's from
Sam and Ilkley in the North of England.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Hi, guys just want to say, firstly, great pod.
Speaker 7 (20:12):
But as I was listening, it just struck me that
surely the only real way to disrupt the criminals and
interrupt the money train, etc. Is to legalize cocaine, educate,
regulate tax then the government can keep tabs on how
strong everything is. It takes the cartels completely out of
(20:36):
the picture, just like back in the day when alcohol
was prohibited and al Capone came on the scene and
all that.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
As soon as they.
Speaker 7 (20:45):
Regulated it again, that completely gets rid of that element.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
It's twenty twenty four now.
Speaker 7 (20:51):
They've been fighting the war on drugs since the early
seventies and obviously failing. People are going to take cocaine,
whether it's legal or not. Right as well regulate it right,
thanks a lot of guys cheers, mate.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
So Sam's basically addressing this issue and questioning if you
can't curb demand, then is legalization the answer? And that
way governments can regulate and tax cocaine while also taking
cocaine out of the cartel's hands, is the theory. We've
had loads of comments and questions about legalization. What do
you both think? Stephen? Can I go to you first?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah, it's an interesting point.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
I actually was having a chat in Colombia with someone,
a local there, and they raised to the point of, well,
fifty years ago or even twenty thirty years ago, marijuana
was illegal and it was also grown in Columbia and
there was crop spraying and that was all a real issue.
And now twenty four states in America have legalized cannabis,
(21:51):
so things can change.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I think The only way for.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
It to really work is if America actually change the rules,
because if say Columbia legalizes a cocaine, well, the first
thing would happen is that they would be banned from
the banking system straight out. America would say, no, that's
not happening. So it's going to be it would have
to be a global change all at once. And I mean, god,
you guys can't even agree on Brexit now, so I
(22:15):
don't know if we're going to have a situation.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Where we can agree on cocaine being legalized.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Well, it's not exactly a great year of for international cooperation,
is it. What do you reckon, David?
Speaker 3 (22:27):
It's a tough one. So a few weeks ago, I
was actually just in I was in Germany right in
the Peace for the Sunday Times. They've got an interesting
situation where they've legalized possession of cannabis up to a
certain amount. There are restrictions, but there's an issue in
terms of when I was there, you can't buy it,
(22:50):
although their coalition government would like to sell it in
shops that's illegal. I'm not against legalization of certain drugs,
by the way, because what I really like to see
is more debate and honest political debate on it in
the UK because this subject is like kryptonite. I mean,
(23:15):
can you imagine kir Starmer coming out in the next
few weeks with a new Labor government, even with his
massive majority, saying we're going to have a chat about
legalizing cocaine.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
It just errupped.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Wouldn't it. I mean, the conservative middle classes, oh my god.
So what I've seen in Germany is there's no point
going to a halfway house. You've got to go whole
hog on the law because if you have a situation
where you legalize possession but buying it is still illegal,
(23:50):
then that creates an environment for the drug dealers because
they can sell more because they know people are buy
it thinking the safe. If I'm caught with it, it's
not a problem. So the underground market still exist there
because you can't buy it anywhere else. You can grow it,
but you can't buy it. So it's kind of at
the moment, what I saw was like it was sort
(24:11):
of boom time for the drug dealers because they haven't
brought in that full of red meat kind of you
can sell it in shops law. So I personally love
to see more debate on it. I want to see
the research, and yeah, if it works, if you can
regulate it, if you can tax it and make a
bit of money and cut out the black market, if
(24:34):
you can create a substance that is safe, because that's
the big one, isn't it. Can you create an alternative
to cocaine? Or you know, is it safe? You know
an eighteen year old? Yeah, you know, that's what parents are.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
So also where you draw the line, So you legalize cocaine,
but if you don't legalize other drugs, then you risk
that the market that exists for cocaine going underground. And
I think there's some really big implications in terms of
it may well reduce violence, It would certainly reduce the
price of the product, but that would make it probably
(25:10):
more desirable, and you'd get big corporations involved. Now they've
got an incentive to increase profits, so increase use. And
there's ramifications for addiction in relation to that. And I
find it always interesting that people raise prohibition because of
course we know that that tobacco is legal, but there's
a big black market in tobacco, so it's not necessarily
(25:31):
a panacea anyway. I mean I think it's really interesting,
But I think you're right, David. We're just nowhere near there.
Is it the same in Australia, Stephen, I mean, the
furo that you'd get here if you were going to
start talking about legalizing Class A drugs would just be
that majority would be turned around quite quickly.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I suspect, yeah, Actually it's sort of.
Speaker 5 (25:53):
It is controversial in Australia, and there's an experiment experiment
happening right now the Act which is Canberra, which is
where our nation capital is, and so people who aren't
from Australia, it's this very strange place, a little bit
like Washington in the middle of nowhere, but it's full
of very very wealthy people in the average wages more
than one hundred thousand dollars and it's basically full employment.
(26:13):
In October last year, they decriminalized cocaine and ice and
heroin Bazarrely, they wanted to decriminalize ice and heroin because
they thought they'd be being elitist if they only legalized cocaine.
That actually came out in a speech which was perhaps
ill advised. So we don't know yet what's actually happened.
(26:35):
So right now, if you get caught with one and
a half grams of cocaine in Canberra, then you get
referred to health authorities. You don't get taken in by
the police. So it's really a wait and see of
what will happen. Queensland, another state, has said we're going
to have a three strikes rule and that's where if
you get caught three times after the third time you
might then get criminal punishments.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
But I mean, it's really in Australia, lots.
Speaker 5 (27:01):
Of young people doing it. I don't think. I mean,
I don't think it really has any stigma anymore. And
that's why I think the podcast is so interesting because
it's really middle class. Now it's more common than not.
It's posh people, the use of hitting record highs in Australia.
So I think there's going to be more debate about this.
The Greens, who aren't they're not hugely influential, but they
(27:23):
do have a voice here in Australia.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
They're pushing for it, so we'll see how it plays out.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
As part of Cocaine Ink, we've all written articles they
go alongside the podcast. You can read them online at
The Times dot Com or Daily Telegraph dot com dot au.
We've had a whole bunch of interesting comments from readers
and we've picked out a few that I'd love to
get your take on, guys. Firstly, an interesting comment from
Times reader James. He read David's report on the wood
Church estate in Merseyside, which you also go to in
(28:09):
episode five of the podcast. That's the estate where the
wood Church Estate gang is selling cocaine in using submachine
guns in their spats with a rival estate, and James says,
I live in Dalston in East London and have done
so for a dozen years. The opening of the overground
the train line improved the area and the area has
certainly continued to improve. I have read academic papers about
(28:32):
how violence has been reduced by improved public transport in
American cities, just as it has been in Dalston. We
now have more upmarket shops and cafes. And I put
this all down to the two new overground stations, which
are well used. Perhaps building a station could do for
wood Church what Dalston Kingsland has done for my area.
So David, what do you make of that? How much
(28:53):
does public transport and infrastructure impact the prevalence of these gangs?
Speaker 3 (28:57):
I think it is a really important actually aspect, and
it's an interesting point of the idea that tackling these
gangs and organized crime it goes beyond simple law enforcement
and sticking handcuffs on. It's a whole societal thing. It's
the wood Church in particular reminds me of certain kind
(29:20):
of valleys in Wales where it's like a fishbowl and
it's kind of like there are kids on there. When
you speak to them, you talk to about Liverpool like
it's it is Dubai. It's so far away. I would
never go to Liverpool. It's a few miles away over
the river, but you just don't leave the kind of
(29:40):
stuck on the wood Church estate with no opportunities. And
I do think public transport better links, it increases your
options educationally, jobs. Every single type of opportunity and chance
that you can access comes by having really good trans
bought links and the link to up place because everybody
(30:02):
drives and a lot of these kids don't have cars,
so they end up stop there and they get stopped
into gangs. So yeah, I mean, I do think I'll
get my high horse now as my other as Northern
editor where you can edit this out if you wire.
But the statistics per capita do say that the southeast
(30:23):
of England per head, has more public transport investment than
people in the Northwest. So I do think there's a
big gap there and more investment needs to be made.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Oh absolutely, Stephen with you, are there any comparisons in
Australia with isolated communities and crime rates.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
Yeah, it's sort of. We have a lot of new
housing estates. It's sort of Australia's house prices are stupid.
The system just doesn't work, and what we've done is
put just more suburbs just further and further and further out,
Like some parts of Melbourne where I live can be
better one hundred kilometers from the city and it's still
considered Melbourne. So you've got people who are out there,
(31:06):
the kids that there is no public transport, there's nothing
to do, and there's no way to get anywhere. The
buses really aren't very well used here and places parting
parts of Sydney. Matt drew that there's just no cash around,
So then it all starts to become a bit of
a hopeful situation and all the money's funneled into the
POSHA eastern suburbs and kids get left behind.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Okay, we also have some interesting comments about money laundering.
Several readers brought up cryptocurrencies and whether they're making it
easier to move and launder money. What do you reckon, Steve?
And I mean, from what I've reported on that area
in the past, it's been pretty unregulated, but perhaps things
are tightening up a little bit now.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Just the wild West.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
Cryptocurrencies really are just mainly or that were set up
and have been exploited by criminal groups, and they do
have some small footprint. They can be traced eventually because
they have to be traced in some ways because you
have to prove that that money belongs to you.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
But they just bounce around so quickly.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
It was described to me as like being an atom,
Like this is an electronic just going around and around.
It moves so fast that you have to go and
try and trace it through hundreds, if not thousands, of
different transactions, which makes it really.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Hard for police.
Speaker 5 (32:21):
I just think it's there should be more regulation and
I don't really see the need for them. And we've
got here in Australia when we watch the football as
crypto dot com is the main advertisement, and like, I
don't see the justification. Actually really makes me angry every
time I sort of watch the foot like why are
we promoting these things?
Speaker 1 (32:40):
What do you think? David? Was this something that came
up as an issue in your reporting as well?
Speaker 3 (32:45):
I mean, it's one of those areas where I'm no
expert on this, by the way, but I mean it
always comes up as one of the weaknesses, if you like,
in the system, and criminals will always, as we know,
they will try on ninety nine things and if the
hundreds works, that's what they'll do. And any chink in
the armor, if you like, in the system is what
(33:06):
they'll put the money into. And crypto definitely is obviously
one of those one of those chinks because you can
transfer money so fast around to people on the other
side of the world. Stephen says, you know, ownership changes
so quickly, and that's the whole key with money laundering.
It's to move. The more links in the chain between
(33:28):
the act of selling the drug and the money itself,
the harder it is to be caught, you know. So
it's going to help criminals. And actually I heard the
other day that you know, one step further now is
there are kind of the underground illegal bookmakers. I'm not
(33:50):
sure you can even call them butt makers, but online
casinos which don't have licenses, where you can use cryptocurrency
to put bets on, you know. So that to me,
it's just another way that criminals can move money.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
And also I suppose we've been talking about international cooperation
and the lack thereof in some cases, and it's hard
enough to get cooperation from some regimes to track money
in the traditional sense, let alone digital currencies whizzing about
all over the place that can be moved so rapidly
and so easily, So it does seem to present a
(34:26):
giant obstacle at the moment.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Completely.
Speaker 5 (34:30):
And when you think about those illegal gamblings or the
black marketing and gambling.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
If you have got a million dollars puddle on a
horse race in.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
Australia, the actual black marker is about ten times that much.
So there's this huge area of cash moving around, and
that is criminal money, that is drug money that's being moved.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
And because if you if you haven't any earned to it,
who cares if you lose?
Speaker 1 (34:53):
So, guys, we're nearing the end of our time together. Lastly,
I wanted to ask you both about how you feel
about the cocaine trade after working on the series. We've
all worked in crime reporting for a long while. I
spoke personally a little bit about my past reporting on
young men and drug gangs in the podcast. Why did
you both want to start looking into the cocaine trade?
(35:14):
Can I start with you Stephen?
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Yeah, I just wanted to really see how big this
business was and look at it from the point of
view of a business, not just a crime, because it
seems like it's just got bigger than that, and from
what we've found, that's probably a fair fair comment. I
don't think we're going to stop the cocaine trade. It's
a matter of trying to see where it can be
limited or what can be done, or having that debate
(35:38):
of whether we go and say, right, let's open the
doors and legalize it. But the other issue with that
is if everyone was doing cocaine so the rates were
drinking alcohol, we don't have hospitals full of people with
heart problems. It's not sort of a teddy bear drug.
He's a serious drug, and that's possibly what we kind
(35:58):
of forget and so many people when I've talked to
them about the podcast what we've done. Particularly people in
my age group in their forties friends have said their
mate's husbands blew up their marriage because of the cocaine
have it?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Someone else, a guide a.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
Minute at the airport, talked about his mate and how
he'd blown up his life as well. So there's a
real cost to the users as well that perhaps sometimes
gets overlooked.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
And what about you, David, what was your motivation for
really wanting to do a deep dive into all of this?
Speaker 3 (36:25):
I mean, for me, I guess it's one of those
subjects that it's always been there. But I didn't really understand,
if I'm being honest, how it worked as a business.
I knew that obviously, as most people do, that cocaine
comes from South America and it gets shipped over to
Holland and then in the UK. But how does the
(36:46):
price of a gram of cocaine? How's that stayed the
same for the last fifteen years when everything else has
gone up in price? And why don't these massive seizures
necessarily hit the cartels? And I've just I've learned, genuinely
so much through both of your reporting as well. I
guess One of the things that I like the most
about our podcast series is that we do explain the
(37:10):
economics of how organized crime works. And you don't get that.
I don't think in a lot of crime reporting, just
because podcast it does give you a chance to do
a real deep dive and get into the real content
of it. Hopefully you know that's going to make me
a better reporter going forward when I'm speaking to law
(37:33):
enforcement or criminals or whoever it is.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And that gets us into the big question. I suppose
perhaps one for you first st even having done all
of this, what are your thoughts? Is the war on
drugs futile?
Speaker 5 (37:47):
In a word, Yes, We're never going to stop people
wanting to get high. I just like when America tried
to ben alcoholic it didn't work. It's just a matter
of how.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Much you try.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
And I mean the other comparison is if you look
at the war on drugs in Mexico, which really started
in earnest in two thousand and six. I've had more
than four hundred thousand murders there since two thousand and six.
Advance has got so much worse because the cartailers have
really sort of fought for their power so I'm not
saying there's any easy solution to the situation. It's just
(38:22):
when there's greed, when there's money involved, people are willing
to kill, and there's a cost to all of this.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah, I'm afraid I tend to sort of take a
bit of a pessimistic view about the futility of it all.
What about you, David, Are you going to try and
bring something positive to the table again or do you
think it's all a bit futile?
Speaker 3 (38:42):
You know what I always said. I've just rewatched you know,
The Wire. It's about the cops and the drug dealers
in the US. It's like an amazing like drama series.
And the series that I think is really interesting is
where You've got that rogue district commander Bonnie Colwyn, And
basically it's so futile and he's coming to the end
(39:03):
of his career and he's seen how they twists the
stats and nothing gets done, so he just decides to
make a street in his district and legalize everything, so
like you can go there and get cocaine, heroin, whatever
you want. It's all on this one street. But in
the rest of the district there's nothing, and crime stats dropped.
(39:25):
I mean, I know it's only a TV show, but
you know, he got in such trouble politically and it
blew up in with the mayor's office and to the public.
All the politicians and the police commissioner was like, this
is outrageous. It's the work of one rogue commander. But
behind closed doors they were like, but it has dropped
(39:45):
crime thirteen percent in his district. So you know what
I think is that, yes, at the moment, the way
we're going about it is kind of futile, but it
just needs more honest debate. And that comes from first, well,
it comes from people being better at educated, but also
(40:05):
it comes from politicians being brave enough to actually put
this on the table and commission the research and say,
you know, we're going to look at what works, not
what works to get us elected.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, and I think there needs to be a change
in public appetite to address this issue, and perhaps at
this moment, with all the other major issues of public importance,
that's going to be quite difficult. But that just means,
you know, the scale of murders in Mexico on abating
and all the other issues that we've spoken about. I mean,
this really is a global crisis?
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Completely?
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Anything else anybody wanted to add?
Speaker 3 (40:43):
I've done my Bunny Colwyn anecdote. That's all I have.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
That was good.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Well, that was great. Thanks so much David and Stephen
for joining me today. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Thanks Piana Tears, Fianna, Thanks Steven.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
If you haven't listened to the whole series, make sure
to listen back to all the episodes they're out now.
You can continue to get in touch with the team
at Cocaine Inc. At The Times dot co dot uk.
But for now that's it for Cocaine Inc. If you
enjoyed this series or found it helpful or informative, please
do tell all your friends and family about us and
(41:26):
give us a review on your podcast app. It helps
other people to find us. Lastly, thanks to everyone who
got in touch, and thanks so much to everyone across
the world for listening. Cocaine Inc. Was a joint investigation
from The Times, The Sunday Times and News Corp Australia.
(41:48):
The reporters were David Collins, Stephen Drill and me Fiona Hamilton.
The series was produced by Sam Chanterassak. The executive producers
were Will Row and Dan Box. Audio production and editing
on this episode is by Martin Peralta, with original music
by Tom Virtull.
Hi there, it's Fiona Hamilton here, chief reporter at the Times.
Thanks for listening to Cocaine Nick, our investigation into the
cocaine business from the coca farmers to international money laundering networks.
If you haven't listened to all eight episodes, this episode
will have spoilers for the whole series, so press pause
(00:29):
on this and come back after listening to it all.
And for those who have, we'll be answering your questions today,
so thanks for getting in touch. Joining me are my
two fellow reporters on this series, Stephen Drill from News
Corp Australia. Hey they're Stephen. Hey, not too bad, thank you.
(00:53):
And here we also have David Collins, Northern editor at
The Sunday Times. Hi you, David, Hi, Fiola, Hi guys.
How's everyone doing.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I'm good, good, thanks. It's lovely evening here in Melbourne.
I feel a little bit like I'm in London today.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Well, well it's a wet, wet day. You're here in London,
which it has been for several days in a row.
So how's it going in the North, David.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I can confirm a hat trick. It's raining in Manchester,
but it always rains in Manchester. It literally always rains
in Manchester. It's just a standard day.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Here, right. So I think today we're going to get
straight into listeners questions. We've had some really good questions
and we've had some voice notes, so let's start with
one of them. We're going to play the clip to you.
This is Anne in Sheffield in the north of England.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Is she going to say I really liked the podcast?
Apart from that, David Collins, he's quite annoying.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
How did you know the first question?
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Hi guys, I've been really enjoying your podcast and just
heard you shout out for questions, So here's one for you.
I've been wondering what happens to the cocaine and all
the things when they get seized, like money and weapons?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Where does it all end up?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So as asking what happens to the illegal items like cocaine,
cash and weapons that get seized by the authorities, Steven,
I'd like to go to you first on this one.
Is this something you spoke to the authorities about?
Speaker 5 (02:19):
Yeah, I've actually been in a warehouse in an Australian
capital city. I won't say exactly where it is because
there are places all around the country where there's millions
of dollars worth of cars which are being stored. So
these are criminals cars and the police they call them restrained.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
They're not seized.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
They're restrained until a huse criminals go through the courts
and then those cars, if they are actually found to
be process of crime, they get sold and that money
goes towards crime prevention. So that's just cars, but there's
also real estate that gets seized, like millions of dollars
worth of houses, and then the cocaine itself.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
There's actually a bit of an issue with that.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
A lot of times they want to try and stop
cocaine from getting to Australia because it costs quite a
bit of money to dispose of, like actually getting rid
of the cocaine itself and some of those drugs is
quite expensive.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Well, actually, that's interesting because I found an amazing story
in Antwerp from a few years back where they have
to burn all the coke that they're seizing, and they
were seizing dozens and dozens of tons of coke and
the gangs were actually trying to steal it back before
they could get the chance to burn it all because
it was not the quickest process, and so the authorities
(03:33):
there were trying to thwart midnight raids by armed gangs
into warehouses, and they had to move all the product
into high security warehouses and put on armed guards themselves.
So it added a sort of another aspect to an
already pretty momentous task that they were that they were addressing.
(03:54):
And David yourself, when you were investigating the Sunshine and
Lollipops money laundering group, did the National Crime Agency tell
you anything about what happens to the cash they can seize.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
I think it's exactly the same. It's taken under the
Proceeds of Crime Act and it can be put back
into law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So that's with the.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Cash and then the cocaine. It's interesting someone was telling
me that one of the issues with cocaine is it
doesn't burn very well. I don't know if you guys
have ever heard that, but apparently cocaine like they put
it in these incinerators, but it's actually quite hard to burn,
so it takes a long time to do and it's
(04:35):
expensive as well, so they only do it at certain
times when they've i think, built up a certain amount
of it that they can then put through for kind
of I think for expenses reasons.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, and presumably just finding the space to be able
to do something like that. It's a pretty big endeavor
when you're talking about huge, huge stashes of illegal drugs.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Yeah, totally. I mean I was reading this mad story
where there was a country, I think it was Ecuador,
where they'd see so much of the stuff they couldn't
literally burn it in the because there wasn't enough time
and the incinerators in the country they just couldn't manage
the volume. So they went to the UN Office of
(05:19):
Drugs and Crime and said, what do we do with
olie coke? And basically the UN gave them this recipe
to make it into concrete, so you end up with
this like cocaine paste, where you can like there's literally
buildings in Ecuador apparently built with like blocks which have
cocaine in them, and it's a way to ma I've
(05:43):
never heard of that before.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
That's a new version of cocaine Briggs.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Okay, So on to the next question. This one is
from Tabby in Sydney. Thanks Tabby. Why do the reporters
go to such dangerous places to do this kind of work?
And not just leave it to the police. So Stephen,
what do you make of that question?
Speaker 5 (06:05):
That's a really good question, and it's one that I've
had to sort of talk to my family about. When
I went to Columbia, I didn't actually tell my mum.
I just said I'm just going to the US, and
I disappeared for a couple of weeks and Tyler after
I got back. But we have to do these stories
because it actually brings to life, really what is happening
(06:26):
with the cocaine trade and what are the real the
victims of it? And without knowing what these stories are,
people who go out on their Saturday night and take
cocaine and think, oh, it's a victim's crime. They'll never
know And look, this may not change anyone's behavior, but
if you don't actually try, then nothing changes at all.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
And also I thought what was really a very interesting
aspect of your reporting, not only the human cost in
Latin America and the way the trade works, but also
sometimes the police put a lot of gloss on their
siezures and the impact that they're having and the reality
is somewhat different. And I think without journalists going and
taking risks like such as what you've done and telling
(07:09):
those stories. We can't really leave the whole narrative to
them alone.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, and that's the hard thing.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
It does take a lot of time and effort to
get these trips going, and they're hard to organize. But
you do need to be there on the ground to
talk to people when that's not just a press release,
when you can actually speak to people directly.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
What did your mom say when you told her the truth?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, she was like she was a bit confused. She's
aady too, so.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
She was like, ah, I mean I did Actually I
got a second life insurance policy to be quite honest,
because I was just like, well, you never know, just
because we went in helicopters as well. And yeah, she
wasn't super happy. Well I was like, yeah, it's fine.
But then when I actually did go, she was not
super happy either. But it's going to be done.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Sure you're around now, you bum from going back to Columbia.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
No, I bought like lots of T shirts.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
I bought T shirts from back and really brought calf
for ones from the market there to buy off the kids.
So I was all right, but yes, I think I'm
barn from Columbia for a little.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
While and David, you went to Dubai. Can you tell
us a little bit more about the challenges of reporting
there and why you went there yourself and didn't just
tell the authorities in Dubai what you'd found and leave
them to crack on.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah, I mean, I guess it's the same, similar to
what Stevens just said. You know, I do think with
this sort of report, you've got to be there. You've
got to be on the ground, You've got to be
speaking to people. You know, there's a lot of reasons
for that. You know, you get the truth from the
person's mouth if you do that, rather than through press
releases or kind of through a PR office. But also
(08:49):
it brings the story to life. You know, you can
kind of cover the story of cocaine from quite a
dry academic point of view and like a policy point
of view, which always just think the power of journalism
is in storytelling and telling something in an engaging way.
We're not just talking about law enforcement and what they're
(09:10):
doing in Columbia. We're hearing from them, you know, we're
not just talking about corrupt port workers in Rotterdam. You know,
you're with one who's telling us and I do think
there's a power in that. Specifically on Dubai, I didn't
necessarily feel at risk, you know, or in danger as such.
(09:32):
It was more kind of the danger came from being
identified by the UA government as a reporter kind of
doing undercover work. There's not many media organizations have done
that sort of work in Dubai, so you know, somebody's
told me early on. It was one of our foreign correspondents.
Dubai feels safe and everything's great until it's not. And
(09:55):
that was kind of in the head a lot. It's
kind of one of those where, yeah, it's all fine,
great tourists go every year, it's not a problem until
a police officer taps you on the shoulder and says,
are you recording something that was always in our mind?
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I think it really shows the importance of being there
and actually probably leads us quite nicely into our next question,
where we're going to stay in Australia for a question
from Toby in Adelaide, who asks did you think about
glamorizing crime when you were making the podcast and is
that always a risk of this kind of podcast? So
(10:31):
I might start this one off. I've covered crime for
many years, and I think that that's probably a consideration
in most of the stories that we do've always been
mindful that you don't want to glorify the people behind
these crimes. But like we've been talking about, it's a balance.
You've got to get the information out there, you've got
to tell the stories, and you've got to make the
podcast as interesting and as engaging as you possibly can.
(10:54):
But I think that's why we made a decision right
from the beginning that we're not going to just look
at the violence. We're going to step back, We're going
to look at the business structure, how the whole business
operates globally. Felt that that could be a constructive way
to look at the industry and see if that would
offer you insight. And I thought a good example probably
of that is actually, David your staff, your brilliant episode
(11:17):
on Ellie Edwards. Now you didn't go into the glorification
of gangs behind that case. It was a really carefully
done episode on the terrible human cost behind their crimes.
Was that something that you really took seriously as well?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
I mean, I think those things as we know, you know,
we've all reported on crime for a long time and
it's kind of you know, I think as long as
you do it, you've always got the back in mind
that you know, the victim you make it victim lad
or you always have the victims in mind, and certainly
with that episode, you know, it's about giving Tim a voice.
(11:52):
How the gangs work themselves is of interest to us,
isn't it. We're talking about the structure of them and
how they work economically and how they make their money.
But I think, yeah, totally, You're right. It's about striking
a balance. It's about not glorifying the lifestyle that comes
with it. And I thought actually in one of the
(12:13):
episodes where Paul Walmsley, who was one of Liverpool's biggest
drug dealers, you know, I asked him how many drug
dealers out of one hundred do you think get away
with it? And he said none, which I thought was
an amazing answer because I was just like, Wow, you know,
do you really think that is that? Yeah? None? Not
saying it always catches.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Up and you're always looking behind you waiting for it
to catch up. Yeah, and what about you, Steven.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
That was one of my major concerns with this because
it is such a big project and I mean, if
you look at shows on Netflix like NACo's or Griselda
or those sort of things, it's almost gratuitous violence, and
that's what I sort of wanted to.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Try to avoid.
Speaker 5 (12:54):
And one of the interviews that I was sort of
most moved by was when we spoke to Jose Fernando
Kabaha Raider, the police officer in Colombia who lost his
legs to a landmine, and that interview is probably one
of the best interviews I've done in my twenty year
journalism career. I actually was almost moved to tears when
I was speaking to him, because he's just so positive
(13:16):
when he's got every right to not be positive.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
He had every right to be angry, and.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
He sort of managed to, sort of as best he could,
move on from it, but it just struck me. He
put a pretty good positive spin on it when I
spoke to him. But when I was having lunch with
a couple of other police a few days later in Colombia,
I mentioned that I'd spoken to him, and they actually
were there that day. They were his colleagues on that raid,
(13:41):
and the looks on their faces as they explained what happened,
it was just horrendous. This guy was like white and
it was five years later he was just yeah, he
said they were under heavy gunfire after the bland mine
went off and it went on for about half an
hour following, and just getting that insight into exit ex
actually what it's really like for people and for police
(14:02):
officers there, and it was just pretty humbling.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, And I think telling stories from that perspective and
really avoiding the glorification and just showing that human cost
is so important. I don't know if it's true of Australia.
There's a real debate about this in Britain at the moment,
and we see that with dramatization of some crimes. So
and you get a whole spectrum. You get the kind
(14:27):
of the true crime, you know, which really feels like
it's glorifying stuff, but then there's some really thoughtful productions.
It's totally away from the drugs trade. But there was
an it and drama about the Yorkshire Ripper. It was
several episodes. It barely mentioned Peter Sutcliffe until the last episode,
and it was all about the victims and the police
officers and the police investigation. I thought it was a
(14:48):
really interesting narrative change actually, and perhaps people are getting
a bit sick of these things being exaggerated and glorified
and victims being made victims over and over again in
the retelling of their stories. And I think that's something
that we really tried to avoid here and do in
a sensitive way.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
It's interesting, isn't it with true crime. True crime is
not necessarily a bad thing as long as there's a
public interest to it. Oh, it doesn't go too far
in the glorification. But if you can ask yourself what
the public interest is, which I think we could all
answer with this podcast in different ways, then you know
that's a good test.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Absolutely, let's jump straight into another question. We've got another
voice note, and this time it's from Kathy in Sydney.
Speaker 6 (15:36):
Hey, guys, I'm listening from Australia. I really enjoyed the podcast.
It's actually got me questioning a little bit this war
on drugs that are always hearing about in the media,
and we're hearing about it from the place too. I'm
wondering now the police telling you guys anything different than
what we're hearing in the public through the media about
the war on drugs, and is the media responsible for
(15:58):
making it seem like this kind of war drugs is
the only option or that it's working, because it kind
of doesn't seem like it is.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
What do you reckon? So we've all covered crime for
a while, we've got our fair share of contacts. Steven,
do you want to take that one first?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah? I think this is a.
Speaker 5 (16:16):
Difficult one to answer, because the war on drug clear
isn't working because you can still buy drugs everywhere here
in Australia, and I presume it's the same in the UK,
but it was when I was there a few years ago.
But I think one of the things that would suggest
that the police are doing something in Australia is that
it costs so much here. It's about three hundred dollars
a gram at least for cocaine in Australia. Sometimes some
(16:39):
people say they pay five hundred dollars, which is about what.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Three three hundred quid. It's a fair bit of money.
So it's restricting some of the.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
Supply and keeping those prices high, which means that people
are using a bit less of it.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
But I think we're never going to stop organized crime.
Speaker 5 (16:55):
There's always going to be somebody who is wanting to
make cash when people are willing to pay sort of
top dollar. It's about trying to reduce the number of
sort of key figures. I mean, because I would rather
one hundred drug dealers with a million dollars each than
one drug dealer with one hundred million dollars. And what
we've seen in the last sort of ten years or
(17:16):
so is that there's fewer and fewer bigger players and
that raises bigger problems of corruption and whether they can
affect politics here in Australia.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, that's really interesting. And I mean when I speak
to my contacts in the police in wider law enforcement
about the war on drugs and they're talking privately, I mean,
I think they're proud of some of their operations, the
way that they're utilizing technology and data and thinking of
more complex ways to try and track gangs and thwart gangs.
(17:47):
But there's definitely an acceptance that it really is a
game of whack a mole and it's a problem that
is infinitely bigger than the police, and that until people
stop using these drugs, or there's some major development that
curtails the trade, or there's some I don't know, breakthrough
in policy that it will really be ever thus, and
(18:10):
I do think they're very resigned to that, and that's
why almost invariably when you interview someone about this stuff,
they will always make that point that they can't stop it.
I mean, is that your experience as well, David?
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Yeah, I'd say that's pretty fair. It's slightly different to Australia,
isn't it, in that the cost of cocaine a gram,
says still is fifty sixty quid, which is, although it's
not cheap, it's probably not as expensive as in Australia,
but then it has to go a lot further, doesn't
(18:44):
it out to Australia from South America, so the cost
is added on as a positive. The one thing I
do think the UK is good at is control over
money because we've got quite strict money laundering laws. It
is difficult to launder money, you know, for criminals in
(19:06):
the UK it's not easy. They can get the drugs in,
they can sell them, but what they do you do
with the money, of even sticking cash and suitcases to
go out to debay with it. That's quite a cumbersome
thing to do, isn't it. If you could put all
those millions into the UK banking system then they would.
So it's kind of in a weird way, it does
show that it's working. And when I speak to law enforcement,
(19:29):
you know, for example, banks are very good at flagging
when people are coming in with large amounts of money.
Just on this story, I spoke to different hat and
gardens gold dealers just to see how tight it is,
and they were saying that they don't even take some
of them don't even take cash anymore because the banks
(19:49):
won't accept it. I do think that we do get
some of it right.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Well, absolutely, And then it's about the different radical ways
I suppose in which that could eventually be tackled, which
leads me nicely into another voice. Note this one's from
Sam and Ilkley in the North of England.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Hi, guys just want to say, firstly, great pod.
Speaker 7 (20:12):
But as I was listening, it just struck me that
surely the only real way to disrupt the criminals and
interrupt the money train, etc. Is to legalize cocaine, educate,
regulate tax then the government can keep tabs on how
strong everything is. It takes the cartels completely out of
(20:36):
the picture, just like back in the day when alcohol
was prohibited and al Capone came on the scene and
all that.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
As soon as they.
Speaker 7 (20:45):
Regulated it again, that completely gets rid of that element.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
It's twenty twenty four now.
Speaker 7 (20:51):
They've been fighting the war on drugs since the early
seventies and obviously failing. People are going to take cocaine,
whether it's legal or not. Right as well regulate it right,
thanks a lot of guys cheers, mate.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
So Sam's basically addressing this issue and questioning if you
can't curb demand, then is legalization the answer? And that
way governments can regulate and tax cocaine while also taking
cocaine out of the cartel's hands, is the theory. We've
had loads of comments and questions about legalization. What do
you both think? Stephen? Can I go to you first?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah, it's an interesting point.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
I actually was having a chat in Colombia with someone,
a local there, and they raised to the point of, well,
fifty years ago or even twenty thirty years ago, marijuana
was illegal and it was also grown in Columbia and
there was crop spraying and that was all a real issue.
And now twenty four states in America have legalized cannabis,
(21:51):
so things can change.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I think The only way for.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
It to really work is if America actually change the rules,
because if say Columbia legalizes a cocaine, well, the first
thing would happen is that they would be banned from
the banking system straight out. America would say, no, that's
not happening. So it's going to be it would have
to be a global change all at once. And I mean, god,
you guys can't even agree on Brexit now, so I
(22:15):
don't know if we're going to have a situation.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Where we can agree on cocaine being legalized.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Well, it's not exactly a great year of for international cooperation,
is it. What do you reckon, David?
Speaker 3 (22:27):
It's a tough one. So a few weeks ago, I
was actually just in I was in Germany right in
the Peace for the Sunday Times. They've got an interesting
situation where they've legalized possession of cannabis up to a
certain amount. There are restrictions, but there's an issue in
terms of when I was there, you can't buy it,
(22:50):
although their coalition government would like to sell it in
shops that's illegal. I'm not against legalization of certain drugs,
by the way, because what I really like to see
is more debate and honest political debate on it in
the UK because this subject is like kryptonite. I mean,
(23:15):
can you imagine kir Starmer coming out in the next
few weeks with a new Labor government, even with his
massive majority, saying we're going to have a chat about
legalizing cocaine.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
It just errupped.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Wouldn't it. I mean, the conservative middle classes, oh my god.
So what I've seen in Germany is there's no point
going to a halfway house. You've got to go whole
hog on the law because if you have a situation
where you legalize possession but buying it is still illegal,
(23:50):
then that creates an environment for the drug dealers because
they can sell more because they know people are buy
it thinking the safe. If I'm caught with it, it's
not a problem. So the underground market still exist there
because you can't buy it anywhere else. You can grow it,
but you can't buy it. So it's kind of at
the moment, what I saw was like it was sort
(24:11):
of boom time for the drug dealers because they haven't
brought in that full of red meat kind of you
can sell it in shops law. So I personally love
to see more debate on it. I want to see
the research, and yeah, if it works, if you can
regulate it, if you can tax it and make a
bit of money and cut out the black market, if
(24:34):
you can create a substance that is safe, because that's
the big one, isn't it. Can you create an alternative
to cocaine? Or you know, is it safe? You know
an eighteen year old? Yeah, you know, that's what parents are.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
So also where you draw the line, So you legalize cocaine,
but if you don't legalize other drugs, then you risk
that the market that exists for cocaine going underground. And
I think there's some really big implications in terms of
it may well reduce violence, It would certainly reduce the
price of the product, but that would make it probably
(25:10):
more desirable, and you'd get big corporations involved. Now they've
got an incentive to increase profits, so increase use. And
there's ramifications for addiction in relation to that. And I
find it always interesting that people raise prohibition because of
course we know that that tobacco is legal, but there's
a big black market in tobacco, so it's not necessarily
(25:31):
a panacea anyway. I mean I think it's really interesting,
But I think you're right, David. We're just nowhere near there.
Is it the same in Australia, Stephen, I mean, the
furo that you'd get here if you were going to
start talking about legalizing Class A drugs would just be
that majority would be turned around quite quickly.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I suspect, yeah, Actually it's sort of.
Speaker 5 (25:53):
It is controversial in Australia, and there's an experiment experiment
happening right now the Act which is Canberra, which is
where our nation capital is, and so people who aren't
from Australia, it's this very strange place, a little bit
like Washington in the middle of nowhere, but it's full
of very very wealthy people in the average wages more
than one hundred thousand dollars and it's basically full employment.
(26:13):
In October last year, they decriminalized cocaine and ice and
heroin Bazarrely, they wanted to decriminalize ice and heroin because
they thought they'd be being elitist if they only legalized cocaine.
That actually came out in a speech which was perhaps
ill advised. So we don't know yet what's actually happened.
(26:35):
So right now, if you get caught with one and
a half grams of cocaine in Canberra, then you get
referred to health authorities. You don't get taken in by
the police. So it's really a wait and see of
what will happen. Queensland, another state, has said we're going
to have a three strikes rule and that's where if
you get caught three times after the third time you
might then get criminal punishments.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
But I mean, it's really in Australia, lots.
Speaker 5 (27:01):
Of young people doing it. I don't think. I mean,
I don't think it really has any stigma anymore. And
that's why I think the podcast is so interesting because
it's really middle class. Now it's more common than not.
It's posh people, the use of hitting record highs in Australia.
So I think there's going to be more debate about this.
The Greens, who aren't they're not hugely influential, but they
(27:23):
do have a voice here in Australia.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
They're pushing for it, so we'll see how it plays out.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
As part of Cocaine Ink, we've all written articles they
go alongside the podcast. You can read them online at
The Times dot Com or Daily Telegraph dot com dot au.
We've had a whole bunch of interesting comments from readers
and we've picked out a few that I'd love to
get your take on, guys. Firstly, an interesting comment from
Times reader James. He read David's report on the wood
Church estate in Merseyside, which you also go to in
(28:09):
episode five of the podcast. That's the estate where the
wood Church Estate gang is selling cocaine in using submachine
guns in their spats with a rival estate, and James says,
I live in Dalston in East London and have done
so for a dozen years. The opening of the overground
the train line improved the area and the area has
certainly continued to improve. I have read academic papers about
(28:32):
how violence has been reduced by improved public transport in
American cities, just as it has been in Dalston. We
now have more upmarket shops and cafes. And I put
this all down to the two new overground stations, which
are well used. Perhaps building a station could do for
wood Church what Dalston Kingsland has done for my area.
So David, what do you make of that? How much
(28:53):
does public transport and infrastructure impact the prevalence of these gangs?
Speaker 3 (28:57):
I think it is a really important actually aspect, and
it's an interesting point of the idea that tackling these
gangs and organized crime it goes beyond simple law enforcement
and sticking handcuffs on. It's a whole societal thing. It's
the wood Church in particular reminds me of certain kind
(29:20):
of valleys in Wales where it's like a fishbowl and
it's kind of like there are kids on there. When
you speak to them, you talk to about Liverpool like
it's it is Dubai. It's so far away. I would
never go to Liverpool. It's a few miles away over
the river, but you just don't leave the kind of
(29:40):
stuck on the wood Church estate with no opportunities. And
I do think public transport better links, it increases your
options educationally, jobs. Every single type of opportunity and chance
that you can access comes by having really good trans
bought links and the link to up place because everybody
(30:02):
drives and a lot of these kids don't have cars,
so they end up stop there and they get stopped
into gangs. So yeah, I mean, I do think I'll
get my high horse now as my other as Northern
editor where you can edit this out if you wire.
But the statistics per capita do say that the southeast
(30:23):
of England per head, has more public transport investment than
people in the Northwest. So I do think there's a
big gap there and more investment needs to be made.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Oh absolutely, Stephen with you, are there any comparisons in
Australia with isolated communities and crime rates.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
Yeah, it's sort of. We have a lot of new
housing estates. It's sort of Australia's house prices are stupid.
The system just doesn't work, and what we've done is
put just more suburbs just further and further and further out,
Like some parts of Melbourne where I live can be
better one hundred kilometers from the city and it's still
considered Melbourne. So you've got people who are out there,
(31:06):
the kids that there is no public transport, there's nothing
to do, and there's no way to get anywhere. The
buses really aren't very well used here and places parting
parts of Sydney. Matt drew that there's just no cash around,
So then it all starts to become a bit of
a hopeful situation and all the money's funneled into the
POSHA eastern suburbs and kids get left behind.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Okay, we also have some interesting comments about money laundering.
Several readers brought up cryptocurrencies and whether they're making it
easier to move and launder money. What do you reckon, Steve?
And I mean, from what I've reported on that area
in the past, it's been pretty unregulated, but perhaps things
are tightening up a little bit now.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Just the wild West.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
Cryptocurrencies really are just mainly or that were set up
and have been exploited by criminal groups, and they do
have some small footprint. They can be traced eventually because
they have to be traced in some ways because you
have to prove that that money belongs to you.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
But they just bounce around so quickly.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
It was described to me as like being an atom,
Like this is an electronic just going around and around.
It moves so fast that you have to go and
try and trace it through hundreds, if not thousands, of
different transactions, which makes it really.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Hard for police.
Speaker 5 (32:21):
I just think it's there should be more regulation and
I don't really see the need for them. And we've
got here in Australia when we watch the football as
crypto dot com is the main advertisement, and like, I
don't see the justification. Actually really makes me angry every
time I sort of watch the foot like why are
we promoting these things?
Speaker 1 (32:40):
What do you think? David? Was this something that came
up as an issue in your reporting as well?
Speaker 3 (32:45):
I mean, it's one of those areas where I'm no
expert on this, by the way, but I mean it
always comes up as one of the weaknesses, if you like,
in the system, and criminals will always, as we know,
they will try on ninety nine things and if the
hundreds works, that's what they'll do. And any chink in
the armor, if you like, in the system is what
(33:06):
they'll put the money into. And crypto definitely is obviously
one of those one of those chinks because you can
transfer money so fast around to people on the other
side of the world. Stephen says, you know, ownership changes
so quickly, and that's the whole key with money laundering.
It's to move. The more links in the chain between
(33:28):
the act of selling the drug and the money itself,
the harder it is to be caught, you know. So
it's going to help criminals. And actually I heard the
other day that you know, one step further now is
there are kind of the underground illegal bookmakers. I'm not
(33:50):
sure you can even call them butt makers, but online
casinos which don't have licenses, where you can use cryptocurrency
to put bets on, you know. So that to me,
it's just another way that criminals can move money.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
And also I suppose we've been talking about international cooperation
and the lack thereof in some cases, and it's hard
enough to get cooperation from some regimes to track money
in the traditional sense, let alone digital currencies whizzing about
all over the place that can be moved so rapidly
and so easily, So it does seem to present a
(34:26):
giant obstacle at the moment.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Completely.
Speaker 5 (34:30):
And when you think about those illegal gamblings or the
black marketing and gambling.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
If you have got a million dollars puddle on a
horse race in.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
Australia, the actual black marker is about ten times that much.
So there's this huge area of cash moving around, and
that is criminal money, that is drug money that's being moved.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
And because if you if you haven't any earned to it,
who cares if you lose?
Speaker 1 (34:53):
So, guys, we're nearing the end of our time together. Lastly,
I wanted to ask you both about how you feel
about the cocaine trade after working on the series. We've
all worked in crime reporting for a long while. I
spoke personally a little bit about my past reporting on
young men and drug gangs in the podcast. Why did
you both want to start looking into the cocaine trade?
(35:14):
Can I start with you Stephen?
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Yeah, I just wanted to really see how big this
business was and look at it from the point of
view of a business, not just a crime, because it
seems like it's just got bigger than that, and from
what we've found, that's probably a fair fair comment. I
don't think we're going to stop the cocaine trade. It's
a matter of trying to see where it can be
limited or what can be done, or having that debate
(35:38):
of whether we go and say, right, let's open the
doors and legalize it. But the other issue with that
is if everyone was doing cocaine so the rates were
drinking alcohol, we don't have hospitals full of people with
heart problems. It's not sort of a teddy bear drug.
He's a serious drug, and that's possibly what we kind
(35:58):
of forget and so many people when I've talked to
them about the podcast what we've done. Particularly people in
my age group in their forties friends have said their
mate's husbands blew up their marriage because of the cocaine
have it?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Someone else, a guide a.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
Minute at the airport, talked about his mate and how
he'd blown up his life as well. So there's a
real cost to the users as well that perhaps sometimes
gets overlooked.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
And what about you, David, what was your motivation for
really wanting to do a deep dive into all of this?
Speaker 3 (36:25):
I mean, for me, I guess it's one of those
subjects that it's always been there. But I didn't really understand,
if I'm being honest, how it worked as a business.
I knew that obviously, as most people do, that cocaine
comes from South America and it gets shipped over to
Holland and then in the UK. But how does the
(36:46):
price of a gram of cocaine? How's that stayed the
same for the last fifteen years when everything else has
gone up in price? And why don't these massive seizures
necessarily hit the cartels? And I've just I've learned, genuinely
so much through both of your reporting as well. I
guess One of the things that I like the most
about our podcast series is that we do explain the
(37:10):
economics of how organized crime works. And you don't get that.
I don't think in a lot of crime reporting, just
because podcast it does give you a chance to do
a real deep dive and get into the real content
of it. Hopefully you know that's going to make me
a better reporter going forward when I'm speaking to law
(37:33):
enforcement or criminals or whoever it is.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And that gets us into the big question. I suppose
perhaps one for you first st even having done all
of this, what are your thoughts? Is the war on
drugs futile?
Speaker 5 (37:47):
In a word, Yes, We're never going to stop people
wanting to get high. I just like when America tried
to ben alcoholic it didn't work. It's just a matter
of how.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Much you try.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
And I mean the other comparison is if you look
at the war on drugs in Mexico, which really started
in earnest in two thousand and six. I've had more
than four hundred thousand murders there since two thousand and six.
Advance has got so much worse because the cartailers have
really sort of fought for their power so I'm not
saying there's any easy solution to the situation. It's just
(38:22):
when there's greed, when there's money involved, people are willing
to kill, and there's a cost to all of this.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah, I'm afraid I tend to sort of take a
bit of a pessimistic view about the futility of it all.
What about you, David, Are you going to try and
bring something positive to the table again or do you
think it's all a bit futile?
Speaker 3 (38:42):
You know what I always said. I've just rewatched you know,
The Wire. It's about the cops and the drug dealers
in the US. It's like an amazing like drama series.
And the series that I think is really interesting is
where You've got that rogue district commander Bonnie Colwyn, And
basically it's so futile and he's coming to the end
(39:03):
of his career and he's seen how they twists the
stats and nothing gets done, so he just decides to
make a street in his district and legalize everything, so
like you can go there and get cocaine, heroin, whatever
you want. It's all on this one street. But in
the rest of the district there's nothing, and crime stats dropped.
(39:25):
I mean, I know it's only a TV show, but
you know, he got in such trouble politically and it
blew up in with the mayor's office and to the public.
All the politicians and the police commissioner was like, this
is outrageous. It's the work of one rogue commander. But
behind closed doors they were like, but it has dropped
(39:45):
crime thirteen percent in his district. So you know what
I think is that, yes, at the moment, the way
we're going about it is kind of futile, but it
just needs more honest debate. And that comes from first, well,
it comes from people being better at educated, but also
(40:05):
it comes from politicians being brave enough to actually put
this on the table and commission the research and say,
you know, we're going to look at what works, not
what works to get us elected.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, and I think there needs to be a change
in public appetite to address this issue, and perhaps at
this moment, with all the other major issues of public importance,
that's going to be quite difficult. But that just means,
you know, the scale of murders in Mexico on abating
and all the other issues that we've spoken about. I mean,
this really is a global crisis?
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Completely?
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Anything else anybody wanted to add?
Speaker 3 (40:43):
I've done my Bunny Colwyn anecdote. That's all I have.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
That was good.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Well, that was great. Thanks so much David and Stephen
for joining me today. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Thanks Piana Tears, Fianna, Thanks Steven.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
If you haven't listened to the whole series, make sure
to listen back to all the episodes they're out now.
You can continue to get in touch with the team
at Cocaine Inc. At The Times dot co dot uk.
But for now that's it for Cocaine Inc. If you
enjoyed this series or found it helpful or informative, please
do tell all your friends and family about us and
(41:26):
give us a review on your podcast app. It helps
other people to find us. Lastly, thanks to everyone who
got in touch, and thanks so much to everyone across
the world for listening. Cocaine Inc. Was a joint investigation
from The Times, The Sunday Times and News Corp Australia.
(41:48):
The reporters were David Collins, Stephen Drill and me Fiona Hamilton.
The series was produced by Sam Chanterassak. The executive producers
were Will Row and Dan Box. Audio production and editing
on this episode is by Martin Peralta, with original music
by Tom Virtull.
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