June 25, 2021 • 26 mins
Faithful friends, how could I conclude sister month without interviewing MY OWN SISTER? Enjoy this mini just-for-fun interview with the iconic Anna Telfer, actress, little sis, and—controversially—someone who once identified with Kitty in Pride and Prejudice.
Follow Anna on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/anna.telfer/?hl=en
Follow the podcast on Instagram: Instagram.com/criminalbroads
Intro and conclusion: “Sisters” by Irving Berlin, sung by Anna Telfer.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Sisters. Sisters, there were never such teas voted sisters, never
had to have a chaperon. No soon, I'm Hudicky my
On who.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hi, and welcome to Criminal Broad's a true crime podcast
about wild women on the wrong side of the law.
I'm Tory Telfer and we have just finished week four
of Sister Month. We have gone through four stories of
sisters who did everything from murdered together to resisted dictators together.
And I thought to myself, how could I possibly do
(00:43):
Sister Month without bringing on my own sister. So here
I am with a little bonus episode for you guys,
and here is my sister, Anna Telfer.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
He Hello, Harry, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Of course, Anna is the best, as I'm sure all
of you listening have already intuited. She is my younger sister,
but sometimes people ask us who's older, which is a
great compliment to me, and I'm dreading the day when
that stops. I think it's close fast. Anna's aging fast
(01:18):
as so she thinks you know she's not. And I
have bangs, which my agent once called nature's botox. So
we'll see. Anna. Can you tell everyone a little bit
about yourself? Where you are and what you use.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
So my name is Anna.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
I am an actor and a singer in Los Angeles.
Lord help us all and yeah, I just freelance performers.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
So right, and can you name some of your recent
huge ads clients that you've worked with?
Speaker 4 (01:52):
And I hate to boast, I hate to boast. I
let's see. I do a lot of commercial work. So
you may have seen me in your local auto trader
at or Burger King or.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Beyond.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
I just did a B horror film for you B
horror film fans, which there probably are a few of
you in the tray true crime world.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
It's called The Dead.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
I you know, don't make it very far into the movie,
but oh so yeah, just.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, amazing, amazing. So you are my younger sister. We
have two brothers in between us, and I'm just wondering
how much does being a sister shape your identity so much?
Speaker 4 (02:40):
I think, I mean, it's the first relationship that you
learn as a child, or I mean maybe besides being
a daughter, but it's just what you're That's like, how
I've been trained to view the world is through a
younger sister, lens. So yeah, I think that everything. I'm
sure if I like really psychoanalyzed myself. I could I
(03:01):
could like connect a lot of things that I do
to being a younger sister, so.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
M so not just a sister, but specifically.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Well, I was thinking because you didn't have siblings the
first few years, so but whereas I had three to
like teach me, teach me baby.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Talk, like hang out with me from from birth, so
I would guess that it would be a little different.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's definitely a wild thing.
Birth order. I was thinking the other day about something
our brother, our brother John did something that I've been doing,
which was great, and I was just like, wow, I've
never like had the experience of seeing an older sibling
do something and then being like I can't wait. It's
(03:51):
like that's a huge experience for a lot of people,
and I've never had it. Not saying like woe is me,
it's just like.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah, yeah, you're in fine territory.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
I get to kind of like watch and learn, which
is also terrifying, but in a different way.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, exactly. We both have benefits and terrors to our
birth order. So I know you, I mean, you're acting.
You consume a lot of media and art and I
was just wondering if you have a favorite pair of
sisters that you've encountered, either in real life or in
(04:26):
a play or a role you've played anything.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
My gosh, I.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
The first one that came to mind is not technically
sisters or cousins, but Rosalind and Celia from As You
Like It are definitely my favorite duo, and they have
like familial and like sisterly affection, so I think it
counts as an answer. They have such good like witty
banter and comedy and tragedy combined, and I think it's beautiful.
I think real sisters. Yeah, the sisters from Fleabag are.
(04:58):
I just think they're hilarious.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
When I interact and flee back to the great show
in general. But but I think.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
I was I went you asked me that I also
thought about Pride and Prejudice because we grew up learning
or just reading Pride and Prejudice, and Jane and Elizabeth
always really stood up to me.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
I love all these sister pairs. Pride and Prejudice is
funny because it's like Jane and Elizabeth rock and are
close and then like all the others kind of get
the short end of the top.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I remember being just une grateful. I didn't like yeah,
just like I'm so gad I only have one.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, because then it's like I get to be Jane,
to be Elizabeth. I guess I'm the beautiful.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
When I was the youngest, so far, we had more
than i'd have to be like Lydia.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
Oh well, I mean, at least you're not a marry
the words brutal and then a kiddie like what's even
what's what does kitty even do?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
She's just she's kind.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Of not it's sort of affiliated with kitty as a child.
Oh no, like fun like underdog kind of way.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Okay, hashtag save Kitty listeners. Are you a Jane or
and Elizabeth? Email me? Criminal project emails trending on Twitter.
Don't email me and tell me you're a Mary, because
I'm gonna have to write back and say no, you're
not and boost your confidence.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Or maybe you are and you can redeem it for us.
Would love to hear.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, if you're like a cool alternative hipster Mary, put
yourself to me, tell me how and why and if
you don't know what we're talking about, read pride and prejudice.
It's great. So this month, my listeners and I have
been through quite the journey. We've covered four pairs of sisters.
Just to do a quick recap, we have Christine and
(06:51):
Leah Papon, who were French maids from the nineteen thirties
who really really brutally killed their mistresses and the thing
that they're even more infamous for or as people sometimes
think they were lovers, although I kind of wonder if
that was just people misinterpreting their extreme codependants. Who really knows.
Then we covered the Mirraball sisters who there were four
(07:14):
of them, three of them started a resistance movement against
the dictator of the Dominican Republic and then they were
assassinated for it. Then we covered the three Khachaturian sisters
from Russia who killed their extremely abusive father. And just
a few days ago we heard about the Gibbons twins,
June and Jennifer Gibbons. This was probably the story that
(07:36):
moved me the most in all sorts of ways. But
they were these twins who their parents were from Barbados,
so they were black, moved to England and then Wales,
were extremely bullied by their white classmates, made a pact
to only speak to each other at age eight, and
then like almost literally like couldn't escape the pact, Like
(07:59):
they couldn't talk to anyone else, including their family, no
matter how much they wanted to so, and then their
life just kind of spiraled from there. Anyway, these are
four very different cases, but all of these sisters were
very close, some in healthy ways, some in unhealthy ways,
but just very close. So I just want to ask
(08:20):
you a very broad question about closeness, Like what like
when I told you about all those sisters, just now,
like what thoughts came to mind is how does closeness
play into being human? And why do you think it
can be both so beautiful and so sinister?
Speaker 4 (08:37):
I mean, I'd love to say I have all those answers.
I think in those specific cases and probably in most
unhealthy slash codependent cases, closeness is a form of strength
or a form of resilience.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
So and I wonder I would maybe I have more
thoughts on this than I do.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
But like as women, we it's become sort of a
defense mechanism to be in group settings or bonded together
or like if it's a protective you know, walk.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
In groups althone you don't want to be alone night
or whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
So this like a sisterhood, especially when it's a real sister,
that's like a guaranteed strength. I think, Yeah, especially when
you're talking about, you know, these sisters being bullied or
these sisters being abused by their father, Like it's so like,
of course you're going to bond with the closest people
(09:39):
that are offering some sort of support.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
I think.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
M hm.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
So you're saying it's not just that it's pretty common
or there's always going to be some closeness in family,
or at least hopefully there's some closeness in family. But
you're saying, like women specifically use groups as strings, and
these girls had to specifically draw from the group setting
that is sister. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Ess these cases, maybe it's more like victimhood.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Rather than womanhood. But sure, sure, you know, drawing.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
From my own experience, I think it makes sense that
like sisterhood bonds are so strong, but everyone's everyone's unique.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
So yeah, Well, I've heard from a couple listeners because
I asked for stories of sisters, and I've heard a
couple stories of just like really like magical, like almost
supernatural bonds between sisters like stepsisters who aren't biologically related
in any way, but have like the one knew when
(10:44):
the other was going into labor, had a dream about it.
And then another anecdote about a half sister that my
listener didn't know she had for like thirty years. But
they're like identical things basically, So there's there's definitely something
like ooky, spooky, magical about sisters. I think have you
(11:06):
ever helped that? I mean, I don't know, like I
don't have an anecdote that immediately springs to mind of you,
and I like having a magical moment of connection.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
But do you the closest that comes to mind?
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Well, you said labors as I cheated, But like I
think that the night you went into labor, I remember
like having a hard time sleeping, And then the next
morning I woke up and I think you had texted
me at like three am or something and it was
like I labor, but I didn't. I didn't get the
text until I woke up the next morning. But I
do remember like having a weird sleep that night.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
But maybe I don't sleep well always.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
I know, No, I totally read the text and was like,
wasn't surprised for whatever reason.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, I guess I didn't process that until you said that.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
You read the text for me saying I'm in labor
and you weren't. Yeah, because you kind of knew.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I mean, we're also do soon. Well, I'm trying to
justify it. I think we have a I think we
no stop trying to justify it.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
It's magic just had.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Other cases, even just like when we're in public settings,
and like I feel like we just get what the
other person is feeling more easily than even like our
other family members do.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, definitely. Well, something that I just thought of was
when so Anna and I were just reunited after eighteen months.
Basically she had come out to see me when I
had cecil, and now he's eighteen months and we just
so it's basically his entire life. We've been kept apart
on opposite sides of the country by the pandemic, as
I'm sure so many of you have been. And remember Anna,
(12:46):
like when we hugged each other in our grandparents' doorway,
we both had the exact same reaction. We both said,
like I forgot, Yeah, do you remember, like we and
I think we both meant so of physically real, like
obviously we had talked on the phone, done some zooms, texted,
but we both like as soon as I hugged you,
(13:08):
it was like, what, like she's a personally, she's a body.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Yeah, and it does feel a little bit like the
other part of your brain and fine, like I think
the other.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Like like embodied.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I just like, oh, I just I don't think that's
the word, but I.
Speaker 4 (13:29):
Really think you but like coming, Yeah, You're like this
person that I like shared so much with and talked
with for so long is suddenly in the flesh and
it's like not somebody I was just I wasn't just
talking to myself the whole time.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
That's like that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Oh my gosh. Yeah, yes, I don't have to be
a subject on criminal broads. I wasn't just yeah, she
really does exist. I don't know if I told you,
but after I was telling Charlie, my husband, about our reunion,
where we were both like, oh, I forgot you were real,
and I just started sobbing did I tell you? And
(14:04):
it was like a delayed reaction, like I don't think
I had realized how sad I was that we were separate,
even when I saw you. I didn't realize, like I didn't.
It didn't hit me until like a week later when
I was telling Charlie about it. It was very powerful.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
I think I feel like I also noticed it. Maybe
I'm just trying to be the cooland but went hang
out with Cecil. I felt like he trusted me a
little bit more because he could tell that you and
I had.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
A strong bond.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Girl. I have been telling everyone that absolutely he he
bonded with you so much quicker than he would with
another woman, like a mom friend, Like he let you
hold him more than he does with some of my
friends out here in New York that he sees every day.
So it had to be a sister thing. I mean,
(14:55):
we look alike, we sound a let you know, we
share so many mannerisms. Plus I think you just said
he could tell how comfortable I was with you. It
was very very Anna and sisters are Anna, and sisters
Anna and Cecil, our third sister, Our Sannah and sister Cecil,
the haunted nun of her horror film really cute together. Okay,
(15:21):
just have two more questions for you. We have let's
talk about death, Okay, but in all seriousness. Two of
the episodes we covered this month have the super spooky
but like it actually happened theme of two sisters who
like could not survive, could not be normal ish until
(15:44):
one of them died. So Christine and Leah Papon. Leah
was super dependent on her older sister Christine. They did
this murder, They went to prison, they were separated, and
Christine wasted away, and then Leah was released and kind
of had a normal life and then way more extreme.
June and Jennifer Gibbons, the twins who stopped talking. They
(16:06):
say that they had a pact when they were about
thirty where they were like, when we're released from this asylum,
we're not going to be having We're not going to
be able to have a normal life if there's both
of us because we're two entwined, so like Jennifer is
gonna have to die. And the day I'm not even joking,
the day they were released, she put her head down
(16:27):
on her sister's shoulder and fell asleep and never walked.
So anyway, cheerful.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
I know.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
That's not our vibe, thank the Lord, but that is
a vibe we see in a lot of places. I'm
thinking of Cain and Abel or Romulus and Remus. I mean,
I guess those are siblings, one killing the other, so
maybe it's not quite the same. But like, there are
so many myths about twins sister's siblings where they sort
(16:57):
of can't both survive. So, as someone who I know,
you think a lot about narrative and what makes a
story compelling, what kind of story you would want to
act in or write or whatever. Why do you think
these stories are so prevalent in legends and like why
are we so drawn to them?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Oof?
Speaker 4 (17:12):
That is a great question. I think the people the
stories that came to mind first were in king Lear
sibling like Edmund and Edgar, and then we have gone
Roll and Reagan and then the good sister Cordelia and
in that story and also sort of maybe maybe this
is stretch, but this idea those both had to do
(17:36):
with like parental love having being a limited resource and
like the competition over over a parent's resource of parent's love,
which it like I think that makes a lot of sense,
especially in Western cultures or cultures that celebrate like an
(17:59):
un conditionally loving divinity, where like.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Like in Christianity, like.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
With the Canaanable story, right, it's like there's this god
figure that is unconditionally loving, but down on earth, the
parent figures are like it's a scary story when the
parent figures become conditional in their love. And yeah, so
(18:27):
I think that like a sibling rivalry is a really
thrilling makes a good, compelling, scary story because it's like,
especially when the parent actually is conditional in their love,
because it's like a big fear for a lot of
people is like having to It's like a the people
that are closest to you turning against you and you're.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Having to fight for yourself.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
It's a very yeah, it's a very personal here. I
mean there are even cases, real cases have you what
are they called phantom twins, where like you're a twin
in uterow, but you kind of eat the other twin
I think, like and only one survives. I mean I
had a writer friend who had that experience once, and
(19:13):
that's like a weird or like biological example of this
theme that comes up in stories like you're talking about,
like the there's not enough resources for both of us.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
I would imagine that would do something kind of strange
to someone's psyche to like know that they've like unintentionally.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Yeah, consumed they're twin in the moving or something.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Oh yeah, it was this. It was the subject of
her entire creative writing dissertation of like as it would
be if that had happened to me for sure. I'm
trying to think though, because the women that we've talked
about on this podcast were not competing for their parents
to love per se. Like the Papa sisters really didn't
(20:00):
have parents basically. I mean they technically both their parents
were alive, but for different reasons, they they didn't have
a relationship with them. The Gibbons twins wanted to talk
to their parents desperately but couldn't. So I wonder what
else could be going on in these cases where they're
competing but not for the parent, I mean.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Both of them.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
If to justify my own argument, like both of them
did have weird relationships with their parents, which maybe most true,
maybe most very true people that go down dark paths
have their parents.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
But yeah, that's actually a good point, Like, I guess
you don't have to be directly being like love me
mother for your behavior to be affected by a bad
relationship with a parent.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah, I think that's very natural.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
It's like the.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
The person that establishes like law and reason and logic
in your life from a young age doesn't do that
or does a bad job at that, and then have
this other like especially it's somebody close to me, like
a sibling that experiences the same thing. You experience the
same sort of trauma, and so you're wrestling with that together.
(21:12):
And then but you also, like are an individual, so
you want to have that to yourself. So I could
imagine there's this weird like I'm want to press it
with you, but also you don't get me, but also
you totally do, but I'll.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yes, Oh, and you are like nailing June and Jennifer's vibe.
It was so What I love about their story is
in many ways, so much of what they did was
like was so relatable. It was like, you know, I
love you, let's dress up together. I like you're my
best sie. I couldn't live without you. Oh, Like I'm
(21:46):
annoyed at you because you're trying to take that away.
I like your you know, just sort of surface level
relatable sister stuff, teenage stuff. But then the story is
so undeniably bizarre. I mean, it's there's so much that
I mean they ended up in this infamous psychiatric hospital
for the criminally insane with serial killers all around them,
(22:08):
and like they had this pact, and then one of
them died. So it's it's not a normal story, and
thank goodness because it's such a sad one. But at
the same time, and so in so many ways, they
were just sisters. You know. It's like they would write
in their diaries. I mean, I don't want to say
they're too relatable, because they would literally write in their
diaries about killing each other. But it was so melodramatic.
(22:29):
It was like, you know, I haven't done that. I
would never do that too. Even though you're not allowed
to read my diary write I actually don't know if.
I don't think I've ever complained about you in my
diary because you, well, you were always chill.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I don't believe that I'll take it.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I found one of my old diaries lately of a
time in my life that I wanted to, like know
what I was thinking, so I went back to read it.
It was all about this boy, it was I was
so it was like, Tory, I want to know what
you felt about writing and your parents and life, and
it was just like he called me. He left a voicemail,
(23:17):
but then my phone died. I didn't get to listen
to hour.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
That is creative writing, right there, I know, and that's art.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Okay, final question, Anna, I don't know if the people
listening to this have put two and two together yet,
like a pair of identical twins. But Anna, you know Anna, listeners,
you know who she is. She's the voice of our
criminal broad theme song, which I get so many emails
and dms about, definitely more, get more messages saying I
(23:50):
love the song than I do sang I love your writing,
which whatever, I'm not mad about it. So anyway, I
wrote the song. I wish it's a classic from the
nineteen thirties. But Anna, you sing guilty? You sing sisters? Sisters?
Ain't nobody like a sister. However, that song goes exactly
(24:15):
and everyone loves it, and so I wanted to put
you on the spot and ask if you could sing
a little bit of guilty for us and we can?
Can you sing us out?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Which?
Speaker 2 (24:26):
What is it?
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Sisters? Guilty?
Speaker 4 (24:27):
Oh uh?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
You recorded? Okay?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Why do we keep saying A I remember.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Recording this really early in the morning, so my voice
was really groggy in like a fun cultual.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yeah, is perfect.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Anyways, I'm just justifying it. Okay, day is it same crime?
I can't do some stripe fings like something like that.
How's that?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Do turn off your camera so you can or do
I want to turn my camera? Shre I'm turning off
on camera.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
It's a crime. Then I'm guilty, guilty.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I started something like that. That was great. Thank you.
I'm sorry to put you so much on the spot. Everyone,
Anna Telfer, my beloved little sister. Find her on Instagram
if you want to hire her for acting jobs, but
only legit ones that pay well. Instagram dot com slash
(25:32):
Anna dot Telfer. Okay, Instagram dot com slash Anna dot Telfer.
Give her a follow, give her a like. Soon you'll
love her not as much as I do.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
But thank you for having me on the show.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yes, thank you, Thanks for coming on, Banana, love you.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Lord help the mist who comes between me, nice sister,
and Lord, help the sister who comes between me and
my man.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Mhm.
Sisters. Sisters, there were never such teas voted sisters, never
had to have a chaperon. No soon, I'm Hudicky my
On who.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hi, and welcome to Criminal Broad's a true crime podcast
about wild women on the wrong side of the law.
I'm Tory Telfer and we have just finished week four
of Sister Month. We have gone through four stories of
sisters who did everything from murdered together to resisted dictators together.
And I thought to myself, how could I possibly do
(00:43):
Sister Month without bringing on my own sister. So here
I am with a little bonus episode for you guys,
and here is my sister, Anna Telfer.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
He Hello, Harry, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Of course, Anna is the best, as I'm sure all
of you listening have already intuited. She is my younger sister,
but sometimes people ask us who's older, which is a
great compliment to me, and I'm dreading the day when
that stops. I think it's close fast. Anna's aging fast
(01:18):
as so she thinks you know she's not. And I
have bangs, which my agent once called nature's botox. So
we'll see. Anna. Can you tell everyone a little bit
about yourself? Where you are and what you use.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
So my name is Anna.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
I am an actor and a singer in Los Angeles.
Lord help us all and yeah, I just freelance performers.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
So right, and can you name some of your recent
huge ads clients that you've worked with?
Speaker 4 (01:52):
And I hate to boast, I hate to boast. I
let's see. I do a lot of commercial work. So
you may have seen me in your local auto trader
at or Burger King or.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Beyond.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
I just did a B horror film for you B
horror film fans, which there probably are a few of
you in the tray true crime world.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
It's called The Dead.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
I you know, don't make it very far into the movie,
but oh so yeah, just.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, amazing, amazing. So you are my younger sister. We
have two brothers in between us, and I'm just wondering
how much does being a sister shape your identity so much?
Speaker 4 (02:40):
I think, I mean, it's the first relationship that you
learn as a child, or I mean maybe besides being
a daughter, but it's just what you're That's like, how
I've been trained to view the world is through a
younger sister, lens. So yeah, I think that everything. I'm
sure if I like really psychoanalyzed myself. I could I
(03:01):
could like connect a lot of things that I do
to being a younger sister, so.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
M so not just a sister, but specifically.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Well, I was thinking because you didn't have siblings the
first few years, so but whereas I had three to
like teach me, teach me baby.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Talk, like hang out with me from from birth, so
I would guess that it would be a little different.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's definitely a wild thing.
Birth order. I was thinking the other day about something
our brother, our brother John did something that I've been doing,
which was great, and I was just like, wow, I've
never like had the experience of seeing an older sibling
do something and then being like I can't wait. It's
(03:51):
like that's a huge experience for a lot of people,
and I've never had it. Not saying like woe is me,
it's just like.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah, yeah, you're in fine territory.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
I get to kind of like watch and learn, which
is also terrifying, but in a different way.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, exactly. We both have benefits and terrors to our
birth order. So I know you, I mean, you're acting.
You consume a lot of media and art and I
was just wondering if you have a favorite pair of
sisters that you've encountered, either in real life or in
(04:26):
a play or a role you've played anything.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
My gosh, I.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
The first one that came to mind is not technically
sisters or cousins, but Rosalind and Celia from As You
Like It are definitely my favorite duo, and they have
like familial and like sisterly affection, so I think it
counts as an answer. They have such good like witty
banter and comedy and tragedy combined, and I think it's beautiful.
I think real sisters. Yeah, the sisters from Fleabag are.
(04:58):
I just think they're hilarious.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
When I interact and flee back to the great show
in general. But but I think.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
I was I went you asked me that I also
thought about Pride and Prejudice because we grew up learning
or just reading Pride and Prejudice, and Jane and Elizabeth
always really stood up to me.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
I love all these sister pairs. Pride and Prejudice is
funny because it's like Jane and Elizabeth rock and are
close and then like all the others kind of get
the short end of the top.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I remember being just une grateful. I didn't like yeah,
just like I'm so gad I only have one.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, because then it's like I get to be Jane,
to be Elizabeth. I guess I'm the beautiful.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
When I was the youngest, so far, we had more
than i'd have to be like Lydia.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
Oh well, I mean, at least you're not a marry
the words brutal and then a kiddie like what's even
what's what does kitty even do?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
She's just she's kind.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Of not it's sort of affiliated with kitty as a child.
Oh no, like fun like underdog kind of way.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Okay, hashtag save Kitty listeners. Are you a Jane or
and Elizabeth? Email me? Criminal project emails trending on Twitter.
Don't email me and tell me you're a Mary, because
I'm gonna have to write back and say no, you're
not and boost your confidence.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Or maybe you are and you can redeem it for us.
Would love to hear.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, if you're like a cool alternative hipster Mary, put
yourself to me, tell me how and why and if
you don't know what we're talking about, read pride and prejudice.
It's great. So this month, my listeners and I have
been through quite the journey. We've covered four pairs of sisters.
Just to do a quick recap, we have Christine and
(06:51):
Leah Papon, who were French maids from the nineteen thirties
who really really brutally killed their mistresses and the thing
that they're even more infamous for or as people sometimes
think they were lovers, although I kind of wonder if
that was just people misinterpreting their extreme codependants. Who really knows.
Then we covered the Mirraball sisters who there were four
(07:14):
of them, three of them started a resistance movement against
the dictator of the Dominican Republic and then they were
assassinated for it. Then we covered the three Khachaturian sisters
from Russia who killed their extremely abusive father. And just
a few days ago we heard about the Gibbons twins,
June and Jennifer Gibbons. This was probably the story that
(07:36):
moved me the most in all sorts of ways. But
they were these twins who their parents were from Barbados,
so they were black, moved to England and then Wales,
were extremely bullied by their white classmates, made a pact
to only speak to each other at age eight, and
then like almost literally like couldn't escape the pact, Like
(07:59):
they couldn't talk to anyone else, including their family, no
matter how much they wanted to so, and then their
life just kind of spiraled from there. Anyway, these are
four very different cases, but all of these sisters were
very close, some in healthy ways, some in unhealthy ways,
but just very close. So I just want to ask
(08:20):
you a very broad question about closeness, Like what like
when I told you about all those sisters, just now,
like what thoughts came to mind is how does closeness
play into being human? And why do you think it
can be both so beautiful and so sinister?
Speaker 4 (08:37):
I mean, I'd love to say I have all those answers.
I think in those specific cases and probably in most
unhealthy slash codependent cases, closeness is a form of strength
or a form of resilience.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
So and I wonder I would maybe I have more
thoughts on this than I do.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
But like as women, we it's become sort of a
defense mechanism to be in group settings or bonded together
or like if it's a protective you know, walk.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
In groups althone you don't want to be alone night
or whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
So this like a sisterhood, especially when it's a real sister,
that's like a guaranteed strength. I think, Yeah, especially when
you're talking about, you know, these sisters being bullied or
these sisters being abused by their father, Like it's so like,
of course you're going to bond with the closest people
(09:39):
that are offering some sort of support.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
I think.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
M hm.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
So you're saying it's not just that it's pretty common
or there's always going to be some closeness in family,
or at least hopefully there's some closeness in family. But
you're saying, like women specifically use groups as strings, and
these girls had to specifically draw from the group setting
that is sister. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Ess these cases, maybe it's more like victimhood.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Rather than womanhood. But sure, sure, you know, drawing.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
From my own experience, I think it makes sense that
like sisterhood bonds are so strong, but everyone's everyone's unique.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
So yeah, Well, I've heard from a couple listeners because
I asked for stories of sisters, and I've heard a
couple stories of just like really like magical, like almost
supernatural bonds between sisters like stepsisters who aren't biologically related
in any way, but have like the one knew when
(10:44):
the other was going into labor, had a dream about it.
And then another anecdote about a half sister that my
listener didn't know she had for like thirty years. But
they're like identical things basically, So there's there's definitely something
like ooky, spooky, magical about sisters. I think have you
(11:06):
ever helped that? I mean, I don't know, like I
don't have an anecdote that immediately springs to mind of you,
and I like having a magical moment of connection.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
But do you the closest that comes to mind?
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Well, you said labors as I cheated, But like I
think that the night you went into labor, I remember
like having a hard time sleeping, And then the next
morning I woke up and I think you had texted
me at like three am or something and it was
like I labor, but I didn't. I didn't get the
text until I woke up the next morning. But I
do remember like having a weird sleep that night.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
But maybe I don't sleep well always.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
I know, No, I totally read the text and was like,
wasn't surprised for whatever reason.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, I guess I didn't process that until you said that.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
You read the text for me saying I'm in labor
and you weren't. Yeah, because you kind of knew.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I mean, we're also do soon. Well, I'm trying to
justify it. I think we have a I think we
no stop trying to justify it.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
It's magic just had.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Other cases, even just like when we're in public settings,
and like I feel like we just get what the
other person is feeling more easily than even like our
other family members do.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, definitely. Well, something that I just thought of was
when so Anna and I were just reunited after eighteen months.
Basically she had come out to see me when I
had cecil, and now he's eighteen months and we just
so it's basically his entire life. We've been kept apart
on opposite sides of the country by the pandemic, as
I'm sure so many of you have been. And remember Anna,
(12:46):
like when we hugged each other in our grandparents' doorway,
we both had the exact same reaction. We both said,
like I forgot, Yeah, do you remember, like we and
I think we both meant so of physically real, like
obviously we had talked on the phone, done some zooms, texted,
but we both like as soon as I hugged you,
(13:08):
it was like, what, like she's a personally, she's a body.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Yeah, and it does feel a little bit like the
other part of your brain and fine, like I think
the other.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Like like embodied.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I just like, oh, I just I don't think that's
the word, but I.
Speaker 4 (13:29):
Really think you but like coming, Yeah, You're like this
person that I like shared so much with and talked
with for so long is suddenly in the flesh and
it's like not somebody I was just I wasn't just
talking to myself the whole time.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
That's like that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Oh my gosh. Yeah, yes, I don't have to be
a subject on criminal broads. I wasn't just yeah, she
really does exist. I don't know if I told you,
but after I was telling Charlie, my husband, about our reunion,
where we were both like, oh, I forgot you were real,
and I just started sobbing did I tell you? And
(14:04):
it was like a delayed reaction, like I don't think
I had realized how sad I was that we were separate,
even when I saw you. I didn't realize, like I didn't.
It didn't hit me until like a week later when
I was telling Charlie about it. It was very powerful.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
I think I feel like I also noticed it. Maybe
I'm just trying to be the cooland but went hang
out with Cecil. I felt like he trusted me a
little bit more because he could tell that you and
I had.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
A strong bond.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Girl. I have been telling everyone that absolutely he he
bonded with you so much quicker than he would with
another woman, like a mom friend, Like he let you
hold him more than he does with some of my
friends out here in New York that he sees every day.
So it had to be a sister thing. I mean,
(14:55):
we look alike, we sound a let you know, we
share so many mannerisms. Plus I think you just said
he could tell how comfortable I was with you. It
was very very Anna and sisters are Anna, and sisters
Anna and Cecil, our third sister, Our Sannah and sister Cecil,
the haunted nun of her horror film really cute together. Okay,
(15:21):
just have two more questions for you. We have let's
talk about death, Okay, but in all seriousness. Two of
the episodes we covered this month have the super spooky
but like it actually happened theme of two sisters who
like could not survive, could not be normal ish until
(15:44):
one of them died. So Christine and Leah Papon. Leah
was super dependent on her older sister Christine. They did
this murder, They went to prison, they were separated, and
Christine wasted away, and then Leah was released and kind
of had a normal life and then way more extreme.
June and Jennifer Gibbons, the twins who stopped talking. They
(16:06):
say that they had a pact when they were about
thirty where they were like, when we're released from this asylum,
we're not going to be having We're not going to
be able to have a normal life if there's both
of us because we're two entwined, so like Jennifer is
gonna have to die. And the day I'm not even joking,
the day they were released, she put her head down
(16:27):
on her sister's shoulder and fell asleep and never walked.
So anyway, cheerful.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
I know.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
That's not our vibe, thank the Lord, but that is
a vibe we see in a lot of places. I'm
thinking of Cain and Abel or Romulus and Remus. I mean,
I guess those are siblings, one killing the other, so
maybe it's not quite the same. But like, there are
so many myths about twins sister's siblings where they sort
(16:57):
of can't both survive. So, as someone who I know,
you think a lot about narrative and what makes a
story compelling, what kind of story you would want to
act in or write or whatever. Why do you think
these stories are so prevalent in legends and like why
are we so drawn to them?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Oof?
Speaker 4 (17:12):
That is a great question. I think the people the
stories that came to mind first were in king Lear
sibling like Edmund and Edgar, and then we have gone
Roll and Reagan and then the good sister Cordelia and
in that story and also sort of maybe maybe this
is stretch, but this idea those both had to do
(17:36):
with like parental love having being a limited resource and
like the competition over over a parent's resource of parent's love,
which it like I think that makes a lot of sense,
especially in Western cultures or cultures that celebrate like an
(17:59):
un conditionally loving divinity, where like.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Like in Christianity, like.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
With the Canaanable story, right, it's like there's this god
figure that is unconditionally loving, but down on earth, the
parent figures are like it's a scary story when the
parent figures become conditional in their love. And yeah, so
(18:27):
I think that like a sibling rivalry is a really
thrilling makes a good, compelling, scary story because it's like,
especially when the parent actually is conditional in their love,
because it's like a big fear for a lot of
people is like having to It's like a the people
that are closest to you turning against you and you're.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Having to fight for yourself.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
It's a very yeah, it's a very personal here. I
mean there are even cases, real cases have you what
are they called phantom twins, where like you're a twin
in uterow, but you kind of eat the other twin
I think, like and only one survives. I mean I
had a writer friend who had that experience once, and
(19:13):
that's like a weird or like biological example of this
theme that comes up in stories like you're talking about,
like the there's not enough resources for both of us.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
I would imagine that would do something kind of strange
to someone's psyche to like know that they've like unintentionally.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Yeah, consumed they're twin in the moving or something.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Oh yeah, it was this. It was the subject of
her entire creative writing dissertation of like as it would
be if that had happened to me for sure. I'm
trying to think though, because the women that we've talked
about on this podcast were not competing for their parents
to love per se. Like the Papa sisters really didn't
(20:00):
have parents basically. I mean they technically both their parents
were alive, but for different reasons, they they didn't have
a relationship with them. The Gibbons twins wanted to talk
to their parents desperately but couldn't. So I wonder what
else could be going on in these cases where they're
competing but not for the parent, I mean.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Both of them.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
If to justify my own argument, like both of them
did have weird relationships with their parents, which maybe most true,
maybe most very true people that go down dark paths
have their parents.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
But yeah, that's actually a good point, Like, I guess
you don't have to be directly being like love me
mother for your behavior to be affected by a bad
relationship with a parent.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah, I think that's very natural.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
It's like the.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
The person that establishes like law and reason and logic
in your life from a young age doesn't do that
or does a bad job at that, and then have
this other like especially it's somebody close to me, like
a sibling that experiences the same thing. You experience the
same sort of trauma, and so you're wrestling with that together.
(21:12):
And then but you also, like are an individual, so
you want to have that to yourself. So I could
imagine there's this weird like I'm want to press it
with you, but also you don't get me, but also
you totally do, but I'll.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yes, Oh, and you are like nailing June and Jennifer's vibe.
It was so What I love about their story is
in many ways, so much of what they did was
like was so relatable. It was like, you know, I
love you, let's dress up together. I like you're my
best sie. I couldn't live without you. Oh, Like I'm
(21:46):
annoyed at you because you're trying to take that away.
I like your you know, just sort of surface level
relatable sister stuff, teenage stuff. But then the story is
so undeniably bizarre. I mean, it's there's so much that
I mean they ended up in this infamous psychiatric hospital
for the criminally insane with serial killers all around them,
(22:08):
and like they had this pact, and then one of
them died. So it's it's not a normal story, and
thank goodness because it's such a sad one. But at
the same time, and so in so many ways, they
were just sisters. You know. It's like they would write
in their diaries. I mean, I don't want to say
they're too relatable, because they would literally write in their
diaries about killing each other. But it was so melodramatic.
(22:29):
It was like, you know, I haven't done that. I
would never do that too. Even though you're not allowed
to read my diary write I actually don't know if.
I don't think I've ever complained about you in my
diary because you, well, you were always chill.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I don't believe that I'll take it.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I found one of my old diaries lately of a
time in my life that I wanted to, like know
what I was thinking, so I went back to read it.
It was all about this boy, it was I was
so it was like, Tory, I want to know what
you felt about writing and your parents and life, and
it was just like he called me. He left a voicemail,
(23:17):
but then my phone died. I didn't get to listen
to hour.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
That is creative writing, right there, I know, and that's art.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Okay, final question, Anna, I don't know if the people
listening to this have put two and two together yet,
like a pair of identical twins. But Anna, you know Anna, listeners,
you know who she is. She's the voice of our
criminal broad theme song, which I get so many emails
and dms about, definitely more, get more messages saying I
(23:50):
love the song than I do sang I love your writing,
which whatever, I'm not mad about it. So anyway, I
wrote the song. I wish it's a classic from the
nineteen thirties. But Anna, you sing guilty? You sing sisters? Sisters?
Ain't nobody like a sister. However, that song goes exactly
(24:15):
and everyone loves it, and so I wanted to put
you on the spot and ask if you could sing
a little bit of guilty for us and we can?
Can you sing us out?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Which?
Speaker 2 (24:26):
What is it?
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Sisters? Guilty?
Speaker 4 (24:27):
Oh uh?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
You recorded? Okay?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Why do we keep saying A I remember.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Recording this really early in the morning, so my voice
was really groggy in like a fun cultual.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yeah, is perfect.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Anyways, I'm just justifying it. Okay, day is it same crime?
I can't do some stripe fings like something like that.
How's that?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Do turn off your camera so you can or do
I want to turn my camera? Shre I'm turning off
on camera.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
It's a crime. Then I'm guilty, guilty.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I started something like that. That was great. Thank you.
I'm sorry to put you so much on the spot. Everyone,
Anna Telfer, my beloved little sister. Find her on Instagram
if you want to hire her for acting jobs, but
only legit ones that pay well. Instagram dot com slash
(25:32):
Anna dot Telfer. Okay, Instagram dot com slash Anna dot Telfer.
Give her a follow, give her a like. Soon you'll
love her not as much as I do.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
But thank you for having me on the show.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yes, thank you, Thanks for coming on, Banana, love you.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Lord help the mist who comes between me, nice sister,
and Lord, help the sister who comes between me and
my man.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Mhm.
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