December 25, 2025 • 31 mins
In today’s Earn Your Leisure episode, Mark Saint‑Julien (chatgpt://generic-entity?number=0) breaks down the real truth about investing in real estate across Africa. He explains how he first entered the market, why cash is still king in many African countries due to limited trust in banks, and how investors can avoid common scams. The conversation dives into the three essential land contracts everyone must understand, why cities like Dakar are seeing rising prices with steady demand, and how access to reliable information remains one of the biggest barriers for investors.
Mark also highlights where everyday investors can find real opportunities as Africa’s middle class rapidly expands. From the biggest mistakes people make when investing on the continent to realistic cost-of-living insights—like living comfortably in Ivory Coast on $1,500 a month—this episode puts numbers and context behind the hype. The discussion closes with a look at why six-figure earners have outsized purchasing power in Africa, the surprising reality that most travel within Africa is by Africans themselves, and which countries currently offer the best real estate buying opportunities.
#EarnYourLeisure #AfricaInvesting #AfricanRealEstate #DiasporaInvesting #GlobalWealth #RealEstateEducation #InvestInAfrica #FinancialLiteracy #WealthBuilding #EmergingMarkets
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This episode is brought to you by P and C Bank.
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National Association Member FDIC. When I did the podcast with
(00:44):
you all, I was telling you probably the most impactful
interview I've done in my career.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
He rolls out as real. He wrote, Troy, talk about
the tags lest you think about fiance.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
You know, we talk in a language that is common
to the people that's one of the community that we.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Grew up with. You are the bright spot. Thanks Lewership
for Black Americans.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
This is the knowledge that actually matters.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
I plowed both of you for this.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Thank you isn't it a country issue.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
It's not an American issue, it's a world issue.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
You tend to earn leisure.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
So how did you how did you like get started
specifically in Africa like doing this.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Like well the relationship. When I was doing a hospitality
and running a hotel in South so France, I told myself,
either I go to Canada to work at the so
Hotel at Montreal, or they offered me to come to
Dakar to work at the new hotel hotel here in
that car and I wanted to feel like home. I
(01:54):
wanted to feel like I had an impact because when
you go work in big cities, you just add some
small percentage over small percentage and you're just a number
that replace you. When you come here, you'll become a
player quickly. So it's a bigger playground, more interesting, and
then you can actually become a Carnegie of your area.
It can become a big investor, whereas it's not impossible
(02:17):
in big countries. But the struggle you have to go through,
the difficulties, whatever you go through is too much headaches
compared to the reward. And here you feel home and
where are you originally from? Have you New York.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
It's beautiful, beautiful culture. You definitely see there's a lot
that still has to be done. But that's the opportunity.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, a lot of opportunity and the purchasing power. When
you're an American and you can put one hundred grounds
in an apartment and looking at ROI around ten percent,
it's not crazy. It's interesting, Like one hundred thousand and
get you an apartment here. Yeah, it can get you
(03:03):
one bedroom apartment. And now it's more reading around one
hundred and ten hundred and twenty. It keeps growing. The
two I have one bedroom apartment. I bought them eighty
thousand each five years ago. Now they go around eighty
one hundred and one hundred and ten something. But the
(03:23):
return is very high because it's twenty three percent. How
much is the rent it's in the US two thousand
approximate two thousand dollars, so twenty four years so around
in this area, in this area is going to be
more like one point five two.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
People buy cash or they get mortgages.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
In Africa, they like cash. They don't trust banks that
much and they don't want to be in the system
to show their earnings, to show transibility so that they
can leverage fonts and bank system. Here is very tough.
Like in US, mortgage is like nothing. You work a
(04:08):
little and then you get it. Here you have to
kill somebody to get the mortgage. Yeah, it's very tough.
Interest rate. Let's say it's eight seven eight. But for
African market, when you get the twenty four percent, err,
you borrow money at eight makes sense, It makes a
(04:29):
lot of sense. It makes sense. But we need to
be careful and resist the urge to be in the
formal kind of mentality and be rushing to buy land,
to buy apartment without thinking ahead. That's the issue some
people like they see the excitement and instead of taking
the time, they go into formal modes and then you
(04:51):
hear stories, Oh he came, he brought fifty k down payment,
and now he's never heard about his fifty k more. Again,
you have to be careful.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Talk about that because that's something that a lot of
people are kind of nervous of, Like how do you
avoid that?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Yeah, you have to go through the proper channels. It
cannot be you know a guy who knows a guy
and it's going to help you out. That's over. Forget
about this. Anybody telling you that kind of Let's say
I know a guy who knows a guy half the time.
It's bullshit. Yeah, you don't need to know a guy.
(05:25):
If you have money, you go through the official shadows,
everything's going to be fine with you.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Official channel would be like a real estate agent.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, real estate agent, an notary agent. For example, we
sold the spent house here to an American guy in Texas,
uh top one, seven hundred k, and he insisted to
go through the notary We went through the process. We
put the money in his crawl account and no problem,
you know. And he was insisting in procedures, which is good.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
How big? How big is that?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
It was about two hundred and feet sarameter with a
big balcony and you have a beautiful c view from
there to the ocean. Yeah, so that is this building
sold out fifty percent sold out. But the company I
run because we are family investment funds and we don't
(06:20):
depend on the cell to finish the property, so we
don't rush out to sell because we want to finish
it and to sell at the highest price expected. Whereas
when you need money, you sell a quickly early stage
of the project to make sure you have the cash,
and then you build with the cash you've been given
by the clients.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
How's the like I said, like the land list is
a landleast good question.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
They have like three types of contracts. One that is
called I don't know in English, deliberation is like the
mayor of the city says, if you have a project,
I will give you this land. Once you build the project,
can make the paperwork so that you can get the
official documents. Then you have the lease. This is maybe
(07:06):
fifty years, ninety nine years. Once you have a real project,
then you can ask for a permanent title. And then
you have the permanent title, which is something that you
should always ask if you are foreignier, you come from
outside Africa, ask for the official Title's.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
The what's the permanent title?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
It's like chito fun and it's like it's registered in
the African constitution that it's yours. However, regardless of the president,
regardless of the law, it's impossible for anybody to get
that land from you, except if it gives you money.
In extent, is that only in this country or a
(07:46):
lot of countries. In every notary, whatever, there is a notary,
he has the power because he's a subsidiary of the
state's power, so he can say, okay, we signed together,
it's yours no matter what. That's why always go through
even the money you give. Never give it hand to
hand to anybody. Even if I sell you an apartment,
(08:09):
don't give it to me. Find a notary because legally speaking,
he has the required he's required to do due diligence.
If he doesn't do it, it's on him.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
How competitive is this market, like this area, I think
with all this coastal property and the appreciation for the
land alone, it has to be going up.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
You know.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Well, yeah, that car is like an almost island. Contrary
to Ivory cost a bijon, which is a length city,
a bijoint is growing like this exponentially without limits. That
car is constraint to the top of the ocean, so
that everything on this coast is like Miami style, let's
(08:53):
say the coast. Then it's going high, high, high high,
because it's impossible to go to like in Dubai, you
cannot go in the water. So yeah, prices are going high. However,
rented rent are being stable. That's why you have to
be careful and start thinking ahead. In in a world
where competition is high, lots of supply, lots of appointments,
(09:17):
which are the ones that your tenants will pick the
first and this is where you have to invest.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Are most people more likely to go closer to the
water or is it just.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Something let's say, uh, they're going to look at schools
and business districts. In Senegal, water is not something that
deep because they are used to it. In Cabo Verde
water is not that deep. So but for expats dot
com water is a small factor, but they will not
(09:48):
compromise distance work distance for water.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
So how far are within the business district.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Here or something? To know that car is spready split
in to two areas. Where you are in newman as I,
it's the middle that you're in the middle. You can
go both ways here you're in Almahdi area. The other
side is business district area. So there is its own
life here business district, et cetera, and there is its
(10:17):
own life over there. It's very rare that you have
somebody that lives here and go in the morning works
over there. It's like one hour and a half. They're
not going to do it. They're going to find a
way to live here. And work here, live there and
work there unless you really have to.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
So, like, for people, what's the biggest opportunity you think
just in Africa period right now? For like the average
the average person that wants to invest in Africa.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Good question. Well, because of the operation risks, I cannot
recommend let's say, agriculture, industry, manufacturing, those are opportunities. The
operational risk are too high, So your money is too
(11:03):
much at risks. So for me, I will focus on
real estates because of let's say the stability and the
predictability of it. You invest in farming. If and you
don't live here, you have no idea whatever the guy
is doing with your money, how serious he is. Is
he selling at the right light price, is he producing
at the right price his employees, are they being legally contracted,
(11:27):
et cetera, et cetera. So I would say for this
confederation it's realistic. Then if you, let's say, come from
the US and then you want to come and start
to live here, then I would be open to any
kind of business. You can go into hospitality. There is
an American woman here, she's not an American, but she's
stayed in the US along a lot of times. She
(11:48):
has two hotels here, they're working. Let's say services. Also,
I had lunch today and yesterday at her restaurant in
fun She's great, so I do. So hospitality is okay.
Let's say financial service also is okay. Raising money. If
you have the ability to raise us money and bring
(12:09):
it to Africa, then you can make a lot of money.
But again you have to find a way to make
this money safe as well. So it's a headache. Also,
people say oli in gas, but can the common person
going oli in gas? So for me, when you have
a fifty k to two hundred k realistic.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
So for entrepreneurs that are here sen Ago, obviously you studied,
you studied in Paris, came here. What does it look
like for young entrepreneurs, other people like yourself that are
talking to young people here to educate them on the
process of real estate.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Well, I have, for instance, I will take my example.
I have my platform with my podcasts. And the reason
why I wanted to create that podcast is because one
of the things in the black community is that there
is a shortage of information. It's not that we don't
have the resources, It's not that we don't have the
opportunity or the skills. There is a shortage of accessing information, succession,
(13:12):
how to build your real estate LLC? What you should
do when you get your first money, what do you
do with it? Do you spend it on let's say
expendable goods or do you invest in land, in properties, etc.
And accessing information in Africa is definitely key, definitely key.
So more and what platform are doing this, Let's say
(13:33):
in Ivory Costs and Senegal also it's starting, some of
them in front or so are starting, but we still
need more. We need more and more content creator to
bring awareness and awareness, bring level of expectations, brings a
level of performance when people know that you cannot easily
get around their knowledge and let's say lights them. Sounds
(13:55):
like another opportunity. Absolutely information what you guys are doing.
There is a void in what you guys are doing
the bridge. But in Africa and America, let's say North
America at large has to still be fulfilled.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Yeah, what do you think this country will be like
in ten years? In the whole continent? Like in ten years?
What do you how do you think this is gonna
look at ten years.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Let's say the first thing that I want to mention
is that at the African continent is a very young continent.
So anything that has to do with the youth and
the next generation, whether it's communication, whether it's technology, whether
it's education, whether it's housing, everything that has to do
(14:46):
with the young people getting older, it's a big, let's say,
mattering topic. Also, the growing of the middle class. We've
known a gap between let's say the lesser revenues kind
of population and the high high, high revenues. There is
(15:08):
a big discrepancy between the two, and now, if we
take the example of Ivory costs, this gap is getting
smaller and smaller. You have a middle class that is
now starting to require services, requiring quality, experience, restaurant close
and then they no longer want to only look at
the West to say, Okay, I have a little money,
(15:30):
I will spend it in Paris. I would spend it
in New York. What can I do if I'm a
Senegalis and travel to Ivory cost. I'm an Ivory cost
and travel to Senegal? What can I have as a product.
So the middle class and every service you can do
for the middle class is very important. And also what
I want to mention is that when you want to
invest in Africa, most people, let's say we'll focus on
(15:52):
luxury goods, luxury service and only a high level, which
is a niche, and it's getting crowded in that niche.
What can we do for the middle class? What are
the mass market product that I can create for that
middle class?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
When you travel to different countries, you said beneath Clotova
Morocco as obviously real estate developer, but also as a consultant. Yeah,
what are the things that you're advising them in based
on the countries.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Well, if we focus on real estate, the first thing
I would tell my big investors or the states I
advice is to run away from ego investment. Let's say
real estate and hospitality are huge platform for ego assets.
I'm the biggest player in sound, I want the biggest building.
(16:45):
I'm the biggest prayer in time. I want the biggest tower,
even though it doesn't respond to a need. So the
first thing I say is make sure you do your
due diligence in the market you're going to tackle. I
know it's a basic, it seems basic, but you have
no idea how much ego investment is big here. So
if you want to invest in let's say residential real estates.
(17:09):
Where are the schools, where are the work centers, where
are the shops? What times does it take to go
from this point to the other point? Is it safe?
What are the rents? How much did you have to
invest to produce that rent? And when you sort out
all those questions already, that's a big, big, big investment.
And also I advise them to focus on people. Again,
(17:33):
it seems like a basic but school and education and
professionalism is a very paramount stake for Africa. If you
want to build your factory, your hotel, your project, an
engineering company, construction company, you're going to spend most of
(17:54):
your time creating skill, automatization, reporting process. Will spend all
your time in the basics, not in defensive stuff of
the branding, the naming, the innovations. That's an easy So
the last thing I would say is that in Africa,
innovation and new ideas, let's say it's okay, But the
(18:18):
most important is the quality of your execution. Can you execute?
Can you go from point A to point B? Can
you gather around you the good guys to work with you?
Can you report? Can you follow process? Can you help
other people follow process.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
Execution is key the middle class, like how much? How
much does the middle class make?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
And good question, It's hard to have numbers, let's say,
but what I've observed based on my previous occupations is
that in let's say, in ivory costs, you can have
middle class stalk twinning from one thousand US to even
(19:01):
one point five thousand, two thousand, and for ivory costs.
Then it's it's a nice kind of living. You cannot
have access to the best realistate property with that kind
of money, but you can have a very good living
rent for rent and for everything. I even question that
a guy that makes one point five here lives significantly
(19:24):
better than a guy that makes one point five in friends,
significantly better.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
US or euros thousand thousand, five hundred dollars.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, one point five thousand dollars.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
A month, a month, that's how much money make.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, you can have that, you can live all of that. Yeah, definitely, Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah, Yeah,
imagine that. Let's say the common salaries that you find
in restaurants, in the hotels, in construction work is a
ground roughly two hundred and two hundred and fifty euros
(20:04):
US a month a month, yes, for construction, for construction
entry level I mean for waiting tables, entry level jobs.
Those are numbers. Yeah, so when you reached one thousand, you.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
Made one thousand dollars a month. Yeah, a middle class.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
It's hard to define, let's say, because we don't have
the right stats numbers. But you're good enough that you
can start to invest to save. And that's why you
have to be smart, because most people who have salary
gap positive salary gap instead of keeping the same lifestyle
and the extra is for saving or investing, all of
(20:42):
a sudden they change life stiles.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
How much more do you need to be rich here
monthly or just yeah? Somebody? It's like so because I'm
asking because yeah, people think a lot. Some people think
about moving Africa, okay, and in America they might be
middle class, yeah, but here they might they might be rich.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Right, what is the middle class? It say, salary for
New York is crazy, but let's say.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Just America America, I would say a hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
With that kind of money, you're you're well off here.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Really?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, a single person family.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
I mean you're just saying, like in middle America.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
If you got if you have two household and you
make that kind of money, you have a business that
can be operated from distance. And then you work from
here and you make that kind of money, Yeah, you
can invest.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
You can if you make let's say five thousand dollars
a month, Yeah, then you're you're doing good.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, you're doing really good. You're wealthy.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Now you're not wealthy, but you're doing good.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, you're doing good because you have a wealthy class
here that I believe is in the same level as
the wealthy class wherever you Yeah, in France or in
the US. It's not like, let's say common, but you
can find some of them.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
So you said you started in a hospital. I want to
reverse engineer. There's somebody right now that's working in hospitality.
Maybe at the noon. What were you taking notes on?
What were you learning that you're implementing now?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Okay, in hospitality, I learned the execution. If you have
a group of twenty person that comes to your hotel
in twenty minutes, they want their rooms, they don't want
to talk to you, they don't want excuses, they're tired,
they're hot. You need to deliver. There is an ending
(22:34):
time and that is something that helped me a lot
to help my team reach that level of demanding expectations
that no excuses and when you work in hospitality, no
excuses possible. There is a human being that will come
to you shout at you, be mad at you. Right now,
you cannot invent something, So execution is the first thing. Anticipation, Like,
(22:55):
I don't believe that's my philosophy that you cannot have
bad employees, but you can have negligent leadership. For example,
if you as a leader, you make sure you prepare
your team to anticipate, to ask the right question, to
implement the right moves, and as well, you make sure
you accept the demand that you can respond to. Because
(23:19):
some business owner just for the appetite of the revenue,
then they will say okay, yes, come in. I can
accept you, I can welcome you, but you can't. It's
better you say okay, look, I can welcome only fifty
of you, not one hundred of you, and do it well.
Then say okay, come the hundred, and then be shouting
at your team because they're unable to perform at one
hundred people. You want it to welcome. So leadership and
(23:42):
smart and anticipating leadership is key. And lastly, something that
is very important is to adapt to many cultures. I
think it's overrated to talk about Africa. Now you have
North Africa and you have many in North Africa. You
have West Africa, and you have many in West Africa,
and Central Africa and South Africa, East Africa. When you
(24:04):
work in the hospitality, then you see all of those
culture combining and working together and you know how to
adapt to each and every one of them. So one
thing that we should do is to limit our reference
and I do it myself also all of the time
as Africa and started being more precise and like we said,
we say New York Miami, then we need to get
(24:25):
in that point where we say dakr abijon Yam, they
will be et cetera, et cetera, point taking. But I'm
the first one to still also do it.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
I think that it has power both ways, Like it
has power as a collective Africa. Yeah, but it also
has power like you said, just not looking at it
as as one either. Because for people, when something happens
in one place, then it's just like something happens in Congo,
then it happens like that's how people are thinking. That's
(25:01):
like they don't understand. It's like it could be an
eight hour flight. It'll be the same thing. I guess
not that happened in Mexico. You will be looking at
New York City. That's a very key point.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Let me emphasize on something, let's say twenty years ago
in hospitality in Africa, let's say Ivory costs, Senegal, Guyania
sixty five percent to seventy percent of your travelers where
European or North American sixty five to seventy percent. The
(25:35):
drawback of that is that they are very sensitive to
changes in reputation, changes in landscape, changes in political landscape,
et cetera. You hear about COVID, everybody leaves Iboa, everybody
leaves political issue, everybody leaves Africa. Now there is a
shift were now about sixty percent of your travelers come
(25:59):
from Africa, North Africa, Ivory Coast, Senegal, Mali, the Gambia, Ghana, Nigeria,
which means that exactly what you say it when a
guy from Nigeria hears about the conflict in let's say
Lo May is not going to be scared to go
to Abijian. He knows the landscape, which is something that
(26:20):
is very good for us to have our own autonomous
local market that is very very important and it's growing.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Now.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
That's why I'm saying, let's not only focus on luxury goods,
let's also learn how to manufacture let's say, mid scale
ranch projects or even mass market products.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Which which markets do you like outside of the car
Obviously you brought up Ivory close is definitely one contrary
with just there in Guinea. What market is in West
Africa or are there in East Africa as well?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
You mentioned Iirobi Ben Let's say from a very subjective standpoint,
Bena because also I'm from Haiti both my parents, although
I've never been, and Bena has been doing a really
great work for the light ten years. The president has
(27:21):
officially announced that he will leave democratically, and which is
a big step for African countries. The African countries are
so much in the appetite to develop that when you
give them stability, it's kyrocks. So the first gift we
(27:41):
should wish for Africa is political stability. Rejan stability and
Beinan has shown that and Bena is doing a crazy
great work with the new Softel hotel, with the events
they do at the end of the year every end
of December, which is very very very high demand and
great events if you love music. They have also with
(28:03):
that where they do the goodom days. Also it's a
great work. The city is very clean. And let's say, also,
I look at Guyana right now. I know you've been
there recently, and also there is a huge appetite to build,
to develop and they are very very ambitious. You've talked
to Chon I think recently, and is an example of
(28:24):
effication of that. Let's say I've been impressed with Morocco.
I've been impressed with Morocco. I was in Morocco twenty
years ago, fifteen years ago, ten years ago, every five
years ago there and I say, what's going on? How
are they able to execute that quick their vision? I'm
impressed with that, the malls, the hotels, how clean it is.
(28:47):
It's not perfect, as you can hear recently. There are
some protests and nothing is perfect. But when you look
from an outside point of view, I can see from
a subjective point of view the progress. Let's say those
are the countries I'm looking at right now.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Well, thank you man, thank you for taking your time.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I appreciate you.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
Thank you for taking your time. Really got a lot
of great insight pleasure.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
And I'm very happy because I have my cousins in
the US east Rance, New Jersey, in New York, in Boston,
in Miami, and I'm always happy when they ask about
Africa and they want to discover their roots because, let's say,
twenty years ago, it was not something that was obvious
(29:32):
for a Black American to say I'm from Africa. And
now I don't know if it's thanks to the AfroB
it's thanks to the marketing, thanks to Wakanda, thanks to
I don't know, but it's becoming more and more trendy
to say I'm from Africa. I don't mind the reason.
The key is that we're getting together and the ability
for Black African and Black American and Black French to
(29:54):
come together as a whole and to collaborate as a
high scale without unhealthy competition. That's the main asset that
we can wish for us.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
It's important.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Appreciate it, man, pleasure I see, erners. What's up?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
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you all, I was telling you probably the most impactful
interview I've done in my career.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
He rolls out as real. He wrote, Troy, talk about
the tags lest you think about fiance.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
You know, we talk in a language that is common
to the people that's one of the community that we.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Grew up with. You are the bright spot. Thanks Lewership
for Black Americans.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
This is the knowledge that actually matters.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
I plowed both of you for this.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Thank you isn't it a country issue.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
It's not an American issue, it's a world issue.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
You tend to earn leisure.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
So how did you how did you like get started
specifically in Africa like doing this.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Like well the relationship. When I was doing a hospitality
and running a hotel in South so France, I told myself,
either I go to Canada to work at the so
Hotel at Montreal, or they offered me to come to
Dakar to work at the new hotel hotel here in
that car and I wanted to feel like home. I
(01:54):
wanted to feel like I had an impact because when
you go work in big cities, you just add some
small percentage over small percentage and you're just a number
that replace you. When you come here, you'll become a
player quickly. So it's a bigger playground, more interesting, and
then you can actually become a Carnegie of your area.
It can become a big investor, whereas it's not impossible
(02:17):
in big countries. But the struggle you have to go through,
the difficulties, whatever you go through is too much headaches
compared to the reward. And here you feel home and
where are you originally from? Have you New York.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
It's beautiful, beautiful culture. You definitely see there's a lot
that still has to be done. But that's the opportunity.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, a lot of opportunity and the purchasing power. When
you're an American and you can put one hundred grounds
in an apartment and looking at ROI around ten percent,
it's not crazy. It's interesting, Like one hundred thousand and
get you an apartment here. Yeah, it can get you
(03:03):
one bedroom apartment. And now it's more reading around one
hundred and ten hundred and twenty. It keeps growing. The
two I have one bedroom apartment. I bought them eighty
thousand each five years ago. Now they go around eighty
one hundred and one hundred and ten something. But the
(03:23):
return is very high because it's twenty three percent. How
much is the rent it's in the US two thousand
approximate two thousand dollars, so twenty four years so around
in this area, in this area is going to be
more like one point five two.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
People buy cash or they get mortgages.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
In Africa, they like cash. They don't trust banks that
much and they don't want to be in the system
to show their earnings, to show transibility so that they
can leverage fonts and bank system. Here is very tough.
Like in US, mortgage is like nothing. You work a
(04:08):
little and then you get it. Here you have to
kill somebody to get the mortgage. Yeah, it's very tough.
Interest rate. Let's say it's eight seven eight. But for
African market, when you get the twenty four percent, err,
you borrow money at eight makes sense, It makes a
(04:29):
lot of sense. It makes sense. But we need to
be careful and resist the urge to be in the
formal kind of mentality and be rushing to buy land,
to buy apartment without thinking ahead. That's the issue some
people like they see the excitement and instead of taking
the time, they go into formal modes and then you
(04:51):
hear stories, Oh he came, he brought fifty k down payment,
and now he's never heard about his fifty k more. Again,
you have to be careful.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Talk about that because that's something that a lot of
people are kind of nervous of, Like how do you
avoid that?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Yeah, you have to go through the proper channels. It
cannot be you know a guy who knows a guy
and it's going to help you out. That's over. Forget
about this. Anybody telling you that kind of Let's say
I know a guy who knows a guy half the time.
It's bullshit. Yeah, you don't need to know a guy.
(05:25):
If you have money, you go through the official shadows,
everything's going to be fine with you.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Official channel would be like a real estate agent.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, real estate agent, an notary agent. For example, we
sold the spent house here to an American guy in Texas,
uh top one, seven hundred k, and he insisted to
go through the notary We went through the process. We
put the money in his crawl account and no problem,
you know. And he was insisting in procedures, which is good.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
How big? How big is that?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
It was about two hundred and feet sarameter with a
big balcony and you have a beautiful c view from
there to the ocean. Yeah, so that is this building
sold out fifty percent sold out. But the company I
run because we are family investment funds and we don't
(06:20):
depend on the cell to finish the property, so we
don't rush out to sell because we want to finish
it and to sell at the highest price expected. Whereas
when you need money, you sell a quickly early stage
of the project to make sure you have the cash,
and then you build with the cash you've been given
by the clients.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
How's the like I said, like the land list is
a landleast good question.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
They have like three types of contracts. One that is
called I don't know in English, deliberation is like the
mayor of the city says, if you have a project,
I will give you this land. Once you build the project,
can make the paperwork so that you can get the
official documents. Then you have the lease. This is maybe
(07:06):
fifty years, ninety nine years. Once you have a real project,
then you can ask for a permanent title. And then
you have the permanent title, which is something that you
should always ask if you are foreignier, you come from
outside Africa, ask for the official Title's.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
The what's the permanent title?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
It's like chito fun and it's like it's registered in
the African constitution that it's yours. However, regardless of the president,
regardless of the law, it's impossible for anybody to get
that land from you, except if it gives you money.
In extent, is that only in this country or a
(07:46):
lot of countries. In every notary, whatever, there is a notary,
he has the power because he's a subsidiary of the
state's power, so he can say, okay, we signed together,
it's yours no matter what. That's why always go through
even the money you give. Never give it hand to
hand to anybody. Even if I sell you an apartment,
(08:09):
don't give it to me. Find a notary because legally speaking,
he has the required he's required to do due diligence.
If he doesn't do it, it's on him.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
How competitive is this market, like this area, I think
with all this coastal property and the appreciation for the
land alone, it has to be going up.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
You know.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Well, yeah, that car is like an almost island. Contrary
to Ivory cost a bijon, which is a length city,
a bijoint is growing like this exponentially without limits. That
car is constraint to the top of the ocean, so
that everything on this coast is like Miami style, let's
(08:53):
say the coast. Then it's going high, high, high high,
because it's impossible to go to like in Dubai, you
cannot go in the water. So yeah, prices are going high. However,
rented rent are being stable. That's why you have to
be careful and start thinking ahead. In in a world
where competition is high, lots of supply, lots of appointments,
(09:17):
which are the ones that your tenants will pick the
first and this is where you have to invest.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Are most people more likely to go closer to the
water or is it just.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Something let's say, uh, they're going to look at schools
and business districts. In Senegal, water is not something that
deep because they are used to it. In Cabo Verde
water is not that deep. So but for expats dot
com water is a small factor, but they will not
(09:48):
compromise distance work distance for water.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
So how far are within the business district.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Here or something? To know that car is spready split
in to two areas. Where you are in newman as I,
it's the middle that you're in the middle. You can
go both ways here you're in Almahdi area. The other
side is business district area. So there is its own
life here business district, et cetera, and there is its
(10:17):
own life over there. It's very rare that you have
somebody that lives here and go in the morning works
over there. It's like one hour and a half. They're
not going to do it. They're going to find a
way to live here. And work here, live there and
work there unless you really have to.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
So, like, for people, what's the biggest opportunity you think
just in Africa period right now? For like the average
the average person that wants to invest in Africa.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Good question. Well, because of the operation risks, I cannot
recommend let's say, agriculture, industry, manufacturing, those are opportunities. The
operational risk are too high, So your money is too
(11:03):
much at risks. So for me, I will focus on
real estates because of let's say the stability and the
predictability of it. You invest in farming. If and you
don't live here, you have no idea whatever the guy
is doing with your money, how serious he is. Is
he selling at the right light price, is he producing
at the right price his employees, are they being legally contracted,
(11:27):
et cetera, et cetera. So I would say for this
confederation it's realistic. Then if you, let's say, come from
the US and then you want to come and start
to live here, then I would be open to any
kind of business. You can go into hospitality. There is
an American woman here, she's not an American, but she's
stayed in the US along a lot of times. She
(11:48):
has two hotels here, they're working. Let's say services. Also,
I had lunch today and yesterday at her restaurant in
fun She's great, so I do. So hospitality is okay.
Let's say financial service also is okay. Raising money. If
you have the ability to raise us money and bring
(12:09):
it to Africa, then you can make a lot of money.
But again you have to find a way to make
this money safe as well. So it's a headache. Also,
people say oli in gas, but can the common person
going oli in gas? So for me, when you have
a fifty k to two hundred k realistic.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
So for entrepreneurs that are here sen Ago, obviously you studied,
you studied in Paris, came here. What does it look
like for young entrepreneurs, other people like yourself that are
talking to young people here to educate them on the
process of real estate.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Well, I have, for instance, I will take my example.
I have my platform with my podcasts. And the reason
why I wanted to create that podcast is because one
of the things in the black community is that there
is a shortage of information. It's not that we don't
have the resources, It's not that we don't have the
opportunity or the skills. There is a shortage of accessing information, succession,
(13:12):
how to build your real estate LLC? What you should
do when you get your first money, what do you
do with it? Do you spend it on let's say
expendable goods or do you invest in land, in properties, etc.
And accessing information in Africa is definitely key, definitely key.
So more and what platform are doing this, Let's say
(13:33):
in Ivory Costs and Senegal also it's starting, some of
them in front or so are starting, but we still
need more. We need more and more content creator to
bring awareness and awareness, bring level of expectations, brings a
level of performance when people know that you cannot easily
get around their knowledge and let's say lights them. Sounds
(13:55):
like another opportunity. Absolutely information what you guys are doing.
There is a void in what you guys are doing
the bridge. But in Africa and America, let's say North
America at large has to still be fulfilled.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Yeah, what do you think this country will be like
in ten years? In the whole continent? Like in ten years?
What do you how do you think this is gonna
look at ten years.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Let's say the first thing that I want to mention
is that at the African continent is a very young continent.
So anything that has to do with the youth and
the next generation, whether it's communication, whether it's technology, whether
it's education, whether it's housing, everything that has to do
(14:46):
with the young people getting older, it's a big, let's say,
mattering topic. Also, the growing of the middle class. We've
known a gap between let's say the lesser revenues kind
of population and the high high, high revenues. There is
(15:08):
a big discrepancy between the two, and now, if we
take the example of Ivory costs, this gap is getting
smaller and smaller. You have a middle class that is
now starting to require services, requiring quality, experience, restaurant close
and then they no longer want to only look at
the West to say, Okay, I have a little money,
(15:30):
I will spend it in Paris. I would spend it
in New York. What can I do if I'm a
Senegalis and travel to Ivory cost. I'm an Ivory cost
and travel to Senegal? What can I have as a product.
So the middle class and every service you can do
for the middle class is very important. And also what
I want to mention is that when you want to
invest in Africa, most people, let's say we'll focus on
(15:52):
luxury goods, luxury service and only a high level, which
is a niche, and it's getting crowded in that niche.
What can we do for the middle class? What are
the mass market product that I can create for that
middle class?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
When you travel to different countries, you said beneath Clotova
Morocco as obviously real estate developer, but also as a consultant. Yeah,
what are the things that you're advising them in based
on the countries.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Well, if we focus on real estate, the first thing
I would tell my big investors or the states I
advice is to run away from ego investment. Let's say
real estate and hospitality are huge platform for ego assets.
I'm the biggest player in sound, I want the biggest building.
(16:45):
I'm the biggest prayer in time. I want the biggest tower,
even though it doesn't respond to a need. So the
first thing I say is make sure you do your
due diligence in the market you're going to tackle. I
know it's a basic, it seems basic, but you have
no idea how much ego investment is big here. So
if you want to invest in let's say residential real estates.
(17:09):
Where are the schools, where are the work centers, where
are the shops? What times does it take to go
from this point to the other point? Is it safe?
What are the rents? How much did you have to
invest to produce that rent? And when you sort out
all those questions already, that's a big, big, big investment.
And also I advise them to focus on people. Again,
(17:33):
it seems like a basic but school and education and
professionalism is a very paramount stake for Africa. If you
want to build your factory, your hotel, your project, an
engineering company, construction company, you're going to spend most of
(17:54):
your time creating skill, automatization, reporting process. Will spend all
your time in the basics, not in defensive stuff of
the branding, the naming, the innovations. That's an easy So
the last thing I would say is that in Africa,
innovation and new ideas, let's say it's okay, But the
(18:18):
most important is the quality of your execution. Can you execute?
Can you go from point A to point B? Can
you gather around you the good guys to work with you?
Can you report? Can you follow process? Can you help
other people follow process.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
Execution is key the middle class, like how much? How
much does the middle class make?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
And good question, It's hard to have numbers, let's say,
but what I've observed based on my previous occupations is
that in let's say, in ivory costs, you can have
middle class stalk twinning from one thousand US to even
(19:01):
one point five thousand, two thousand, and for ivory costs.
Then it's it's a nice kind of living. You cannot
have access to the best realistate property with that kind
of money, but you can have a very good living
rent for rent and for everything. I even question that
a guy that makes one point five here lives significantly
(19:24):
better than a guy that makes one point five in friends,
significantly better.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
US or euros thousand thousand, five hundred dollars.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, one point five thousand dollars.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
A month, a month, that's how much money make.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, you can have that, you can live all of that. Yeah, definitely, Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah, Yeah,
imagine that. Let's say the common salaries that you find
in restaurants, in the hotels, in construction work is a
ground roughly two hundred and two hundred and fifty euros
(20:04):
US a month a month, yes, for construction, for construction
entry level I mean for waiting tables, entry level jobs.
Those are numbers. Yeah, so when you reached one thousand, you.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
Made one thousand dollars a month. Yeah, a middle class.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
It's hard to define, let's say, because we don't have
the right stats numbers. But you're good enough that you
can start to invest to save. And that's why you
have to be smart, because most people who have salary
gap positive salary gap instead of keeping the same lifestyle
and the extra is for saving or investing, all of
(20:42):
a sudden they change life stiles.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
How much more do you need to be rich here
monthly or just yeah? Somebody? It's like so because I'm
asking because yeah, people think a lot. Some people think
about moving Africa, okay, and in America they might be
middle class, yeah, but here they might they might be rich.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Right, what is the middle class? It say, salary for
New York is crazy, but let's say.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Just America America, I would say a hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
With that kind of money, you're you're well off here.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Really?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, a single person family.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
I mean you're just saying, like in middle America.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
If you got if you have two household and you
make that kind of money, you have a business that
can be operated from distance. And then you work from
here and you make that kind of money, Yeah, you
can invest.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
You can if you make let's say five thousand dollars
a month, Yeah, then you're you're doing good.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, you're doing really good. You're wealthy.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Now you're not wealthy, but you're doing good.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, you're doing good because you have a wealthy class
here that I believe is in the same level as
the wealthy class wherever you Yeah, in France or in
the US. It's not like, let's say common, but you
can find some of them.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
So you said you started in a hospital. I want to
reverse engineer. There's somebody right now that's working in hospitality.
Maybe at the noon. What were you taking notes on?
What were you learning that you're implementing now?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Okay, in hospitality, I learned the execution. If you have
a group of twenty person that comes to your hotel
in twenty minutes, they want their rooms, they don't want
to talk to you, they don't want excuses, they're tired,
they're hot. You need to deliver. There is an ending
(22:34):
time and that is something that helped me a lot
to help my team reach that level of demanding expectations
that no excuses and when you work in hospitality, no
excuses possible. There is a human being that will come
to you shout at you, be mad at you. Right now,
you cannot invent something, So execution is the first thing. Anticipation, Like,
(22:55):
I don't believe that's my philosophy that you cannot have
bad employees, but you can have negligent leadership. For example,
if you as a leader, you make sure you prepare
your team to anticipate, to ask the right question, to
implement the right moves, and as well, you make sure
you accept the demand that you can respond to. Because
(23:19):
some business owner just for the appetite of the revenue,
then they will say okay, yes, come in. I can
accept you, I can welcome you, but you can't. It's
better you say okay, look, I can welcome only fifty
of you, not one hundred of you, and do it well.
Then say okay, come the hundred, and then be shouting
at your team because they're unable to perform at one
hundred people. You want it to welcome. So leadership and
(23:42):
smart and anticipating leadership is key. And lastly, something that
is very important is to adapt to many cultures. I
think it's overrated to talk about Africa. Now you have
North Africa and you have many in North Africa. You
have West Africa, and you have many in West Africa,
and Central Africa and South Africa, East Africa. When you
(24:04):
work in the hospitality, then you see all of those
culture combining and working together and you know how to
adapt to each and every one of them. So one
thing that we should do is to limit our reference
and I do it myself also all of the time
as Africa and started being more precise and like we said,
we say New York Miami, then we need to get
(24:25):
in that point where we say dakr abijon Yam, they
will be et cetera, et cetera, point taking. But I'm
the first one to still also do it.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
I think that it has power both ways, Like it
has power as a collective Africa. Yeah, but it also
has power like you said, just not looking at it
as as one either. Because for people, when something happens
in one place, then it's just like something happens in Congo,
then it happens like that's how people are thinking. That's
(25:01):
like they don't understand. It's like it could be an
eight hour flight. It'll be the same thing. I guess
not that happened in Mexico. You will be looking at
New York City. That's a very key point.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Let me emphasize on something, let's say twenty years ago
in hospitality in Africa, let's say Ivory costs, Senegal, Guyania
sixty five percent to seventy percent of your travelers where
European or North American sixty five to seventy percent. The
(25:35):
drawback of that is that they are very sensitive to
changes in reputation, changes in landscape, changes in political landscape,
et cetera. You hear about COVID, everybody leaves Iboa, everybody
leaves political issue, everybody leaves Africa. Now there is a
shift were now about sixty percent of your travelers come
(25:59):
from Africa, North Africa, Ivory Coast, Senegal, Mali, the Gambia, Ghana, Nigeria,
which means that exactly what you say it when a
guy from Nigeria hears about the conflict in let's say
Lo May is not going to be scared to go
to Abijian. He knows the landscape, which is something that
(26:20):
is very good for us to have our own autonomous
local market that is very very important and it's growing.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Now.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
That's why I'm saying, let's not only focus on luxury goods,
let's also learn how to manufacture let's say, mid scale
ranch projects or even mass market products.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Which which markets do you like outside of the car
Obviously you brought up Ivory close is definitely one contrary
with just there in Guinea. What market is in West
Africa or are there in East Africa as well?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
You mentioned Iirobi Ben Let's say from a very subjective standpoint,
Bena because also I'm from Haiti both my parents, although
I've never been, and Bena has been doing a really
great work for the light ten years. The president has
(27:21):
officially announced that he will leave democratically, and which is
a big step for African countries. The African countries are
so much in the appetite to develop that when you
give them stability, it's kyrocks. So the first gift we
(27:41):
should wish for Africa is political stability. Rejan stability and
Beinan has shown that and Bena is doing a crazy
great work with the new Softel hotel, with the events
they do at the end of the year every end
of December, which is very very very high demand and
great events if you love music. They have also with
(28:03):
that where they do the goodom days. Also it's a
great work. The city is very clean. And let's say, also,
I look at Guyana right now. I know you've been
there recently, and also there is a huge appetite to build,
to develop and they are very very ambitious. You've talked
to Chon I think recently, and is an example of
(28:24):
effication of that. Let's say I've been impressed with Morocco.
I've been impressed with Morocco. I was in Morocco twenty
years ago, fifteen years ago, ten years ago, every five
years ago there and I say, what's going on? How
are they able to execute that quick their vision? I'm
impressed with that, the malls, the hotels, how clean it is.
(28:47):
It's not perfect, as you can hear recently. There are
some protests and nothing is perfect. But when you look
from an outside point of view, I can see from
a subjective point of view the progress. Let's say those
are the countries I'm looking at right now.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Well, thank you man, thank you for taking your time.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I appreciate you.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
Thank you for taking your time. Really got a lot
of great insight pleasure.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
And I'm very happy because I have my cousins in
the US east Rance, New Jersey, in New York, in Boston,
in Miami, and I'm always happy when they ask about
Africa and they want to discover their roots because, let's say,
twenty years ago, it was not something that was obvious
(29:32):
for a Black American to say I'm from Africa. And
now I don't know if it's thanks to the AfroB
it's thanks to the marketing, thanks to Wakanda, thanks to
I don't know, but it's becoming more and more trendy
to say I'm from Africa. I don't mind the reason.
The key is that we're getting together and the ability
for Black African and Black American and Black French to
(29:54):
come together as a whole and to collaborate as a
high scale without unhealthy competition. That's the main asset that
we can wish for us.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
It's important.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Appreciate it, man, pleasure I see, erners. What's up?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
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