December 29, 2025 • 8 mins
Free-to-air TV, newspapers and radio have all been declared “dead”... repeatedly. Michael Thompson speaks with Tim Burrowes, founder and publisher of Mumbrella and the Unmade newsletter, about the short-term future of Australia’s legacy media, from the big TV stations to networking radio shows like Kyle & Jackie O.
This is Fear & Greed's summer series - all-new short episodes every day, with regular news back from January 12.
Find out more: https://fearandgreed.com.au/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the Fear and Greed summer series. I'm Michael Thompson.
Today a look at Australia's TV networks, radio stations and newspapers.
The legacy media really fighting for it's a place in
the media landscape. Tim Burrows is the founder and publisher
of media and marketing website Umbrella and the newsletter Unmade.
Tim Welcome back to Fear and Greed.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Mickey T. Somemmer's greetings, ah.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Where to start? Free to Air? Let's start? There a
lot of deals, a lot of activity in the last
twelve months. It's Free to Wear TV fighting a losing battle,
AD revenue shrinking, there's so much competition for viewers or
does it still have this role that streamers just can't
quite replicate.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Do you know what? There's so much there to unpick.
You know, if we look back on the biggest deal
of the year that involved one of the TV players,
which was nine selling at stake in domain, the real
estate platform, so that that created quite an interesting kind
of pile of money to do something else with. And
that's the question is how do you reinvent a fading
(01:11):
but still very influential free to air business model? Because
a lot of people, you know, every year it's less
than the year before, but a lot of people still
turn on the news at six o'clock every night and
are watching the same thing at the same time. So
if you're an advertiser wants to reach a lot of
people at once, then the best way of doing it
is arguably still television. So it still has influence.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, and we are still creatures of habit. We Streaming
has not disrupted that entirely. And sport as well. Sport
has long been kind of TV's secret weapon. Is that
advantage still holding or is that starting through a road
now as well?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Do you know? Live sport is probably the single most
important thing for television now. I covered a conference in
London a while back and so Martin Sorrel, former founder
of WPP, was talking and he was talking about live sport,
and my AI transcript wrote it down as life support,
which actually felt quite accurate for the TV networks really,
(02:10):
because that's what it is. That's the one thing that
guarantees to prop up audience is you know, there's always
an appetite for in the summer, for cricket, for tennis
in the winter, for NRL, for AFL, which is why
those deals are always so big.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Okay, we don't have a huge amount of time, so
I'm going to move straight on to newspapers. Right. They
have been declared dead or dying so many times. But
is it feeling like we've moved past that point now
that we've accepted that that newspapers are always going to
have a place, that the circulation isn't what it used
to be, but that it still has this core audience,
(02:48):
and that the focus now is just on the economics
of distribution and scale and ensuring that the quality of
the reporting is still there.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah. I remember covering a futurist created this thing, the
newspaper extinction timeline, and I think he declared that all
newspapers would be dead by I think it was about
twenty eighteen or something, which obviously didn't happen. I think
in Australia one of the things that kind of created
sort of far less of a kind of fixed cost
base for what was then fair Facts was closing all
(03:18):
of the print work so effectively outsourcing everything, which means
that as long as people are willing to carry on
paying the ever increasing cover price, and the cover price
always goes up, then you know, will be newspapers. Now
the frequency might be less, it might be more into weekends,
you know, rather than necessarily every weekday. And of course,
(03:39):
you know, the hopes of these publishers is that people
pay to subscribe to the digital editions instead, because you know,
there's not enough advertising going around to support them these days.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, and that is the big challenge right across the board, really,
isn't it. And it's the same in radio. And I
want to talk to you about radio because it's been
a massive twelve months for radio. Let's start with Kyl
and Jackie O because it feels like they are the
ones that everybody watches so so closely every time that
these survey results are published. They've had just over eighteen
(04:13):
months now in Melbourne Signs of Life. Is this a
failed experiment? Networking a Sydney, a very Sydney based breakfast
show into Melbourne is their hope?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yes, AOI Media. They signed a ten year deal with
Carl Sanderlans and Jackie Henderson. Now that deal only started
at the beginning of twenty twenty five and a part
of that plan was to network that show eventually nationally,
but starting Sydney and Melbourne. As you allude to, the
first few months did not go well, didn't particularly rate,
(04:50):
still pretty weak in Melbourne. They finished the year as
the number one FM show in Sydney though, so still
strong there. But what we did see signals that ARM
Media was kind of evolving. It's thinking. They've also taken
their second network, which I argue you might say is
now the first network, Gold National in twenty twenty six,
(05:12):
so we'll see the Christian O'Connell Breakfast show become a
national one, you know, with and depending on the market,
sometimes it's just a dab license, sometimes it's the four
FM license, so you know, even kind of late in
twenty twenty five, we saw Christian O'Connell do a pop
up show in Sydney after the radio rating season finished,
(05:35):
just to start introducing himself to that Sydney audience. So
we're maybe seeing a bit of an evolution of the
strategy from aarn where they're putting a few more eggs
in the Christian O'Connell basket and a few less in
the Carl and Jackie o baskets.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
But still a commitment to networking shows because there has
traditionally been this idea that it is very very difficult
to network a breakfast show, drive shows in the afternoon
and being network for a very long time. In most
other day parts are all networked as well, but breakfast
is the thing that has always traditionally been live and
(06:08):
local and nothing else works. But there is still this
commitment to networking, clearly.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, there is, and some of it is the current
relatively new management of an have inherited a strategy, you know,
as I say, with a really expensive contact with Carl
and JACKIEO, which now has another nine years to go,
it limits their options in not doing a national show
just because of the costs of keeping market based shows
(06:35):
going forward. So I think at some point that will
be the trend towards it. But firstly, you know, as
we got towards the end of twenty twenty five, there
were still issues with the regulator, the AKMA, the Australian
Communications and Media Authority, that are going to create some
issues around those Kiss FM licenses depending on the behavior
(06:56):
of that Carl and JACKIEO show.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
And the other way in radio, there'll be plenty of
people watching to see what happens to the talkstations. Two
JB three or W four, BC six PR the nine
radio stations under new ownership in twenty twenty six. Just quickly,
we've only got thirty seconds left. Looking ahead to the
next twelve months, what's the theme, Perhaps which part of
(07:21):
kind of our legacy media is going to face the
biggest threat in the next twelve months, and maybe which
one's quietly adapting best.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
I mean, for me, it still feels like outdoor still
has small growth to come. You know, outdoor advertising was
always the one where all that digital disruption could be
a good thing, because if you hon a billboard and
you can put a different ad on every fifteen seconds
rather than once a month, then you can just write
more revenues, so there's more growth to We had from outdoor.
It's probably the least disruptible medium. So if I was
(07:54):
to look for a traditional media where you'd expect growth,
that's where i'd look. Tim.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Summer series always a pleasure, were never atore?
Speaker 1 (08:04):
That was Tim Burrows, founder and publisher of Umbrella and
newsletter Unmade. Don't forget to hit follow on the podcast,
new episodes every day during our summer series and regular
shows are back from January twelve and Mina Thompson and
Miss Fear and Greed
Welcome to the Fear and Greed summer series. I'm Michael Thompson.
Today a look at Australia's TV networks, radio stations and newspapers.
The legacy media really fighting for it's a place in
the media landscape. Tim Burrows is the founder and publisher
of media and marketing website Umbrella and the newsletter Unmade.
Tim Welcome back to Fear and Greed.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Mickey T. Somemmer's greetings, ah.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Where to start? Free to Air? Let's start? There a
lot of deals, a lot of activity in the last
twelve months. It's Free to Wear TV fighting a losing battle,
AD revenue shrinking, there's so much competition for viewers or
does it still have this role that streamers just can't
quite replicate.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Do you know what? There's so much there to unpick.
You know, if we look back on the biggest deal
of the year that involved one of the TV players,
which was nine selling at stake in domain, the real
estate platform, so that that created quite an interesting kind
of pile of money to do something else with. And
that's the question is how do you reinvent a fading
(01:11):
but still very influential free to air business model? Because
a lot of people, you know, every year it's less
than the year before, but a lot of people still
turn on the news at six o'clock every night and
are watching the same thing at the same time. So
if you're an advertiser wants to reach a lot of
people at once, then the best way of doing it
is arguably still television. So it still has influence.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, and we are still creatures of habit. We Streaming
has not disrupted that entirely. And sport as well. Sport
has long been kind of TV's secret weapon. Is that
advantage still holding or is that starting through a road
now as well?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Do you know? Live sport is probably the single most
important thing for television now. I covered a conference in
London a while back and so Martin Sorrel, former founder
of WPP, was talking and he was talking about live sport,
and my AI transcript wrote it down as life support,
which actually felt quite accurate for the TV networks really,
(02:10):
because that's what it is. That's the one thing that
guarantees to prop up audience is you know, there's always
an appetite for in the summer, for cricket, for tennis
in the winter, for NRL, for AFL, which is why
those deals are always so big.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Okay, we don't have a huge amount of time, so
I'm going to move straight on to newspapers. Right. They
have been declared dead or dying so many times. But
is it feeling like we've moved past that point now
that we've accepted that that newspapers are always going to
have a place, that the circulation isn't what it used
to be, but that it still has this core audience,
(02:48):
and that the focus now is just on the economics
of distribution and scale and ensuring that the quality of
the reporting is still there.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah. I remember covering a futurist created this thing, the
newspaper extinction timeline, and I think he declared that all
newspapers would be dead by I think it was about
twenty eighteen or something, which obviously didn't happen. I think
in Australia one of the things that kind of created
sort of far less of a kind of fixed cost
base for what was then fair Facts was closing all
(03:18):
of the print work so effectively outsourcing everything, which means
that as long as people are willing to carry on
paying the ever increasing cover price, and the cover price
always goes up, then you know, will be newspapers. Now
the frequency might be less, it might be more into weekends,
you know, rather than necessarily every weekday. And of course,
(03:39):
you know, the hopes of these publishers is that people
pay to subscribe to the digital editions instead, because you know,
there's not enough advertising going around to support them these days.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, and that is the big challenge right across the board, really,
isn't it. And it's the same in radio. And I
want to talk to you about radio because it's been
a massive twelve months for radio. Let's start with Kyl
and Jackie O because it feels like they are the
ones that everybody watches so so closely every time that
these survey results are published. They've had just over eighteen
(04:13):
months now in Melbourne Signs of Life. Is this a
failed experiment? Networking a Sydney, a very Sydney based breakfast
show into Melbourne is their hope?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yes, AOI Media. They signed a ten year deal with
Carl Sanderlans and Jackie Henderson. Now that deal only started
at the beginning of twenty twenty five and a part
of that plan was to network that show eventually nationally,
but starting Sydney and Melbourne. As you allude to, the
first few months did not go well, didn't particularly rate,
(04:50):
still pretty weak in Melbourne. They finished the year as
the number one FM show in Sydney though, so still
strong there. But what we did see signals that ARM
Media was kind of evolving. It's thinking. They've also taken
their second network, which I argue you might say is
now the first network, Gold National in twenty twenty six,
(05:12):
so we'll see the Christian O'Connell Breakfast show become a
national one, you know, with and depending on the market,
sometimes it's just a dab license, sometimes it's the four
FM license, so you know, even kind of late in
twenty twenty five, we saw Christian O'Connell do a pop
up show in Sydney after the radio rating season finished,
(05:35):
just to start introducing himself to that Sydney audience. So
we're maybe seeing a bit of an evolution of the
strategy from aarn where they're putting a few more eggs
in the Christian O'Connell basket and a few less in
the Carl and Jackie o baskets.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
But still a commitment to networking shows because there has
traditionally been this idea that it is very very difficult
to network a breakfast show, drive shows in the afternoon
and being network for a very long time. In most
other day parts are all networked as well, but breakfast
is the thing that has always traditionally been live and
(06:08):
local and nothing else works. But there is still this
commitment to networking, clearly.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, there is, and some of it is the current
relatively new management of an have inherited a strategy, you know,
as I say, with a really expensive contact with Carl
and JACKIEO, which now has another nine years to go,
it limits their options in not doing a national show
just because of the costs of keeping market based shows
(06:35):
going forward. So I think at some point that will
be the trend towards it. But firstly, you know, as
we got towards the end of twenty twenty five, there
were still issues with the regulator, the AKMA, the Australian
Communications and Media Authority, that are going to create some
issues around those Kiss FM licenses depending on the behavior
(06:56):
of that Carl and JACKIEO show.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
And the other way in radio, there'll be plenty of
people watching to see what happens to the talkstations. Two
JB three or W four, BC six PR the nine
radio stations under new ownership in twenty twenty six. Just quickly,
we've only got thirty seconds left. Looking ahead to the
next twelve months, what's the theme, Perhaps which part of
(07:21):
kind of our legacy media is going to face the
biggest threat in the next twelve months, and maybe which
one's quietly adapting best.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
I mean, for me, it still feels like outdoor still
has small growth to come. You know, outdoor advertising was
always the one where all that digital disruption could be
a good thing, because if you hon a billboard and
you can put a different ad on every fifteen seconds
rather than once a month, then you can just write
more revenues, so there's more growth to We had from outdoor.
It's probably the least disruptible medium. So if I was
(07:54):
to look for a traditional media where you'd expect growth,
that's where i'd look. Tim.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Summer series always a pleasure, were never atore?
Speaker 1 (08:04):
That was Tim Burrows, founder and publisher of Umbrella and
newsletter Unmade. Don't forget to hit follow on the podcast,
new episodes every day during our summer series and regular
shows are back from January twelve and Mina Thompson and
Miss Fear and Greed
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