November 26, 2025 • 13 mins
As an asset class, private credit is surging, worth at least $200 billion locally - and increasingly, retail investors are becoming interested in private credit. But is it a safe way to invest money? What should an investor be looking for when considering private credit?
Sean Aylmer is joined by ASIC commissioner Simone Constant to discuss ASIC's benchmark reports into public and private markets.
Find out more: https://fearandgreed.com.au/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Fear and Greed QR and A where we
ask and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more.
I'm Sean Alma. Earlier in the month, the Corporate Regulator
ASSEK released a number of benchmark reports on public and
private markets in Australia. Most of the interest was in
private markets, especially private credit as an asset class. Private
credit is surging worth at least two hundred billion dollars locally,
(00:27):
though it's a bit hard to find a definitive figure. Increasingly,
retail investors, sometimes through superfunds, are getting involved in private credit.
But is it a safe way to invest money? What
should an investor be looking for when considering private credit.
I'm joined today by ASSEK Commissioner Simone Constant Simone. Welcome
to Fear and Greed QR and A thanks.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
It's good to be back with Fear and Greed.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
So let's start with the basics. What is private credit,
as ASSEK defines it.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
It's a great question because it is a broad church.
So private credit is the non bank clending, the direct
lending that sits outside of, as we think about it,
the prudentially regulated system. And interestingly, what that means and
how that shows up can be quite different from country
to country, market to market. In Australia when we look
at it that way, actually it's predominantly lending. Sixty percent
(01:18):
of it is lending into property, for example, although there
are other strands and other types of financing that fall
into private credit.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Okay, broadly, is it good or bad? Is it here
to stay? Is it something that we're going to see
alongside public markets forever? I'm just trying to get a
feel for how you view it.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
It is a broad question. So what we always say
at the outset of these conversations is private credit, like
private markets, when done well, are great. They're great for
the market, they're great for investors, they're great for borrowers.
The flow of credit is really important in the economy
and at ASEK we're required to promote confident and informed
(01:59):
participations in the economy in financial system, so access to
investment and access to credit is really important, whether that's
private markets or whether that's on the in credit or
whether that's on the equity side. The problem is private
credit at the moment is not done consistently well. And
the work that you've outlined that you've touched on that
we've put forward. There's four important pieces in the package
(02:22):
of work, but one dedicated component was a surveillance report
across private credit across the practices of twenty eight entities,
which followed on from an expert report we commissioned where
we got two market experts to really dimension what we
should and shouldn't be worrying about in private credit. And
then we've got a level of depth what could we
see and did we see those concerns bearing out? So
(02:45):
with the kind of inconsistencies and challenges and examples of
poorer practice that we found in our surveillance report and
our broader information sweep at the moment not done consistently well,
we need to get to where private credit is consistently
done well.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
So let's dig into that a little bit. There's things
like transparency, marketing fees, conflicts of interests, liquidity valuations, credit risk,
et cetera. If you go through that report, there are
lots of examples of I think you call them better
and poorer practices of those sort of in this six
or seven or eight or nine things. There generally is
(03:22):
this an issue about disclosure, so you can kind of
do stuff so long as you're telling your investors you're
doing it. Is it actually an issue about an industry.
It's just too young, It hasn't got the maturity to
have a proper definition of a default for example. Somewhere
in between, I love how.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I kistik for fear and greed, trying to get to
the heart of why is it fear? Is it greed?
What's driving at So there's a lot in your question,
the maturity part. Maybe I'll start at the back end.
You made a comment about the maturity of Istralian market.
That is really important. We think that and that factor
I went to straight up front the dominance of proper
lending in Australia that is important here. So again private
(04:04):
credit is the rise of private credit. It's grown five
hundred percent in a decade here. It's Australia is not
alone there though. Private credit is growing globally and it's
got the attention of regulators and investors globally. As we
know Tricolor First Brands Bank of England doing stress tests.
That said Australia. A unique factor in Australia is both
that property focus and actually it's not as mature a market.
(04:27):
So when we look at America, for example, it's a
much broader church. So private credit flows into asset backed financing,
it flows into vehicle financing such as we're just talking about.
In some of the cases we've seen, it's not as
mature in the Australian market. Now with the growth rates
we've got five hundred percent across a decade, and with
one of the greatest sources of the flow of investment
(04:48):
into this being the flow of superfunds and will soon
be the second biggest super fund system in the world.
Right we've got many billions under management. We know that
we need to get to that level of maturity really
quickly to support that growth rate, to support the role
private credit can play, and to support the fact that
funds are going to continue to flow within that. I
(05:09):
think in your question, you're asking, is this just all
about disclosure? When you break down and we laid out
a table of ten principles of what private credit done
well looks like, and actually you can extrapolate most of
them for private markets generally and absolutely transparency is a
really important part of it. But when we think about fundamentals,
(05:29):
we think about transparency, we think about accountability for what
this thing is and knowing who's accountable and to whom
they are accountable, which goes to things like conflicts I'll
come back to, and that sense of consistency, that expectation,
and even within disclosure, so is a range of important
principles we've called out and poorer practices on the other
(05:50):
side of it, and they go from management of conflicts
of interests to doing your the right liquidity and stress testing,
to the way you approach valuations as a fund and
to the way that you disclose. But even with disclosure,
which is where you went to, it's got to be
effective disclosure. So I like a really really appreciate that
(06:10):
you've picked up that default example. When I think about
the Private Credit Surveillance report, there's about three pages to
me that are really powerful. One is the poorer practices
and I'll touch on them more broadly. Two would be
those principles of what good looks like. That three is
at the back, towards the back that default range of
default definitions, which shows that even for something as fundamental
(06:32):
for credit as a definition of default, you can look
at around ten funds and go one of the funds,
you know, thirty sixty ninety days past you. That's the
sort of default situation. Another of the funds, which is
actually one of the very big ones. You're almost an
enforcement thinking about bailiffs an enforcement process before you're in default.
(06:53):
And so where I'm going with that is, even if
you get transparence in this idea of disclosure, it's got
to be a fea and it's got to be informed
by an industry moving to a commonality of what some
of these things mean. Right. Another example is we've seen
some bad outcomes in some product flowing into some platforms
(07:14):
Shield First Guardian for example. Actually within that was product
with the term investment grade rating attached. Right, So when
we see investment grade rating attached to things, and we
don't need to limit it to that, you think, well,
for many of us, triple B minus, an SMP triple
B minus. But what does that actually mean? So you
can't just be only about transparency, can't only be about disclosure.
(07:37):
And I think, you know, if we want to dig
a little bit more into some of the other examples
of poor practice, some that really stood out to me
they are absolutely not all about disclosure.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Okay, So I mean we are kind of running out
of time. And I also like to mention you kind
of have something to say about research houses too, which
you alluded to then, and we trust research house. We
come back to that some of those poorer practices.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, so I would say, when you look at evaluation practices,
that's pretty there's some pretty poor practice there. So there's
a page that captures that most of the funds we
review did not have effective separation between their investment committee
that approved the loans and those representatives responsible for looking
after them, what's the performance, what's the ongoing valuation? Half
(08:19):
of them, only half of the retail funds had proper
detailed credit policies for credit fund and half of the
wholesale ones didn't have policies governing the fair all allocation
of investment opportunities amongst different funds that they had interests in,
which really goes back to that conflicts of interest and
that fair allocation and fair treatment. And then finally, I
(08:39):
think you talked about liquidity and stress testing. When you
looked at the wholesale funds, only two of the eight
wholesale funds did liquidity stress testing. Now, when we see
funds that are twenty thirty billion dollars in terms of
the groups you know, coming together as a group in Australia,
these are significant mbfised non bank financial intermedia isn't in institutions. Well,
(09:01):
you think it's time for consistency across all those practices.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Okay, we're sort of out of time and there's so
much more to go down that pathway. I do want
to just talk about something that's over the past twenty
four hours or so Assets has done. Along with APPRA,
you've basically come out and said the super funds. Who's
three years ago under the Morrison government it was legislated,
I think was Retirement income Covenant? Was that what it's
called it there?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Years ago? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Peace, that's right, Peace of Lord. The idea is that
a super fund doesn't just have to look after a
person as they're saving. It's also as they're dissaving, as
they're drawing down and they need you know, they get
to sixty five or whatever they are, and they need
a plan going forward. And what you're sort of saying
is that the super funds aren't doing a very good
job at that. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Absolutely, Although what we would say is it's getting better.
Right in the past it's been not very good at all.
It's getting better, but there's inconsistency to use that term
again and the gap is widening now. It shouldn't necessarily
have needed a piece of law three years ago to
say that actually entities super funds who are there to
(10:03):
provide retirement services support for people in their retirement, So
looking after funds so they can spend them and have
a good retirement, participate in retirement, which is the purpose
of the system. Shouldn't necessarily have needed a law. But
there has been a law in place for three years
and it's pretty simple. It says that super trustees are
required to help those members their members to have a
retirement strategy, and it needs to look at risk, it
(10:25):
needs to look at access to their money, and it
needs to look at return classic stuff for fear and
greed audience. Right, So that's been in place for three
years and consistent with our mandate and what people would
expect of us, we have come back to that year
after year to see how the industry is going, and
we've worked lockstep with APPA in that regard. In terms
of the trend and where this is heading to. It's
(10:46):
getting better and this year we find it in some
pockets is getting materially better, but in some pockets it's
just really incremental improvement and change. And so the gap
is widening. And when you think about this, in the past,
folks have talked about a silver tsunami of retire Actually,
we think that's old language. Now. What it is now
is it's here constant waves of retirees. So at the
(11:07):
moment we've got one and a half million people in
retirement needing access to retirement services. In the next decade
it'll be two and a half million. That's well more
than the population of Perth. So it is time for
trustees to consistently again that word, consistently put retirement at
the heart of their strategies and then follow up and
follow through on that. So members are supporting retirement. They're
not just super trustees and not just investment vehicles. They're
(11:30):
retirement and member services vehicles.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Okay, both of these topics we've discussed simone, Super is
at the heart of them. Now it's obvious in the latter,
but even in the former and in the report you
talk about retail investors via super being involved in private credit,
and that might be totally indirectly. But super is they're
kind of like the kings of.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
The castle, or you may call them that. I call
them trustees, and I call them trustees of other people's
money who had aired provide retirement services and members services
and ensure they can participate in their retirement. So yes,
superannuation is the idiosyncratic, the dominant idiosyncratic factor about Australian markets. Absolutely.
(12:13):
And when you think about a country that will soon
have the second biggest pension system in the world but
the fifty fifth biggest population, we have a very big
amount of SUPER and it's only going to grow when
you think about that in twelve and a half percent. Now,
as we say in our report, you know there's four
pieces in it of work that have come together, including
an overarching report which identifies this idiosyncratic factor in Australia.
(12:34):
Private markets are growing globally. Public markets are potentially flat
lining globally also. But what's different here is super. It's
a really good thing if done well, and an important
part of it, if done well, is on the investment
side and asset allocation side. Those of us at Apparanastic,
all of us in the system trustees of course, most importantly,
(12:55):
we keep doing our job. You know, this is a
system that's continuing to mature as we get folks moving
into retirement, as their need for services increases, as the
funds under management, the scale of these entities only increases
the risk around member service delivery and around retirement service
delivery as well continues to grow. And that's where our
SIS really been focused. So we've got important part to
(13:17):
play in understanding markets, in holding trustees to account for
their responsibility to markets and not just members. We've also
got a really important role though, in making sure that
trustees live up to their brief and what their customers
expect when it comes to service delivery.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Simone, thanks for talking to Fear and Greed.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Great thanks for having Michel That.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Was Asset commissioner at Simone Constant. If you've got something
you'd like to know, send through your question via LinkedIn, Instagram,
Facebook or at Fearinggreed dot com todau. I'm Seanaelmer and
this is Fear and Greed Q and DA
Welcome to Fear and Greed QR and A where we
ask and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more.
I'm Sean Alma. Earlier in the month, the Corporate Regulator
ASSEK released a number of benchmark reports on public and
private markets in Australia. Most of the interest was in
private markets, especially private credit as an asset class. Private
credit is surging worth at least two hundred billion dollars locally,
(00:27):
though it's a bit hard to find a definitive figure. Increasingly,
retail investors, sometimes through superfunds, are getting involved in private credit.
But is it a safe way to invest money? What
should an investor be looking for when considering private credit.
I'm joined today by ASSEK Commissioner Simone Constant Simone. Welcome
to Fear and Greed QR and A thanks.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
It's good to be back with Fear and Greed.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
So let's start with the basics. What is private credit,
as ASSEK defines it.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
It's a great question because it is a broad church.
So private credit is the non bank clending, the direct
lending that sits outside of, as we think about it,
the prudentially regulated system. And interestingly, what that means and
how that shows up can be quite different from country
to country, market to market. In Australia when we look
at it that way, actually it's predominantly lending. Sixty percent
(01:18):
of it is lending into property, for example, although there
are other strands and other types of financing that fall
into private credit.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Okay, broadly, is it good or bad? Is it here
to stay? Is it something that we're going to see
alongside public markets forever? I'm just trying to get a
feel for how you view it.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
It is a broad question. So what we always say
at the outset of these conversations is private credit, like
private markets, when done well, are great. They're great for
the market, they're great for investors, they're great for borrowers.
The flow of credit is really important in the economy
and at ASEK we're required to promote confident and informed
(01:59):
participations in the economy in financial system, so access to
investment and access to credit is really important, whether that's
private markets or whether that's on the in credit or
whether that's on the equity side. The problem is private
credit at the moment is not done consistently well. And
the work that you've outlined that you've touched on that
we've put forward. There's four important pieces in the package
(02:22):
of work, but one dedicated component was a surveillance report
across private credit across the practices of twenty eight entities,
which followed on from an expert report we commissioned where
we got two market experts to really dimension what we
should and shouldn't be worrying about in private credit. And
then we've got a level of depth what could we
see and did we see those concerns bearing out? So
(02:45):
with the kind of inconsistencies and challenges and examples of
poorer practice that we found in our surveillance report and
our broader information sweep at the moment not done consistently well,
we need to get to where private credit is consistently
done well.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
So let's dig into that a little bit. There's things
like transparency, marketing fees, conflicts of interests, liquidity valuations, credit risk,
et cetera. If you go through that report, there are
lots of examples of I think you call them better
and poorer practices of those sort of in this six
or seven or eight or nine things. There generally is
(03:22):
this an issue about disclosure, so you can kind of
do stuff so long as you're telling your investors you're
doing it. Is it actually an issue about an industry.
It's just too young, It hasn't got the maturity to
have a proper definition of a default for example. Somewhere
in between, I love how.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I kistik for fear and greed, trying to get to
the heart of why is it fear? Is it greed?
What's driving at So there's a lot in your question,
the maturity part. Maybe I'll start at the back end.
You made a comment about the maturity of Istralian market.
That is really important. We think that and that factor
I went to straight up front the dominance of proper
lending in Australia that is important here. So again private
(04:04):
credit is the rise of private credit. It's grown five
hundred percent in a decade here. It's Australia is not
alone there though. Private credit is growing globally and it's
got the attention of regulators and investors globally. As we
know Tricolor First Brands Bank of England doing stress tests.
That said Australia. A unique factor in Australia is both
that property focus and actually it's not as mature a market.
(04:27):
So when we look at America, for example, it's a
much broader church. So private credit flows into asset backed financing,
it flows into vehicle financing such as we're just talking about.
In some of the cases we've seen, it's not as
mature in the Australian market. Now with the growth rates
we've got five hundred percent across a decade, and with
one of the greatest sources of the flow of investment
(04:48):
into this being the flow of superfunds and will soon
be the second biggest super fund system in the world.
Right we've got many billions under management. We know that
we need to get to that level of maturity really
quickly to support that growth rate, to support the role
private credit can play, and to support the fact that
funds are going to continue to flow within that. I
(05:09):
think in your question, you're asking, is this just all
about disclosure? When you break down and we laid out
a table of ten principles of what private credit done
well looks like, and actually you can extrapolate most of
them for private markets generally and absolutely transparency is a
really important part of it. But when we think about fundamentals,
(05:29):
we think about transparency, we think about accountability for what
this thing is and knowing who's accountable and to whom
they are accountable, which goes to things like conflicts I'll
come back to, and that sense of consistency, that expectation,
and even within disclosure, so is a range of important
principles we've called out and poorer practices on the other
(05:50):
side of it, and they go from management of conflicts
of interests to doing your the right liquidity and stress testing,
to the way you approach valuations as a fund and
to the way that you disclose. But even with disclosure,
which is where you went to, it's got to be
effective disclosure. So I like a really really appreciate that
(06:10):
you've picked up that default example. When I think about
the Private Credit Surveillance report, there's about three pages to
me that are really powerful. One is the poorer practices
and I'll touch on them more broadly. Two would be
those principles of what good looks like. That three is
at the back, towards the back that default range of
default definitions, which shows that even for something as fundamental
(06:32):
for credit as a definition of default, you can look
at around ten funds and go one of the funds,
you know, thirty sixty ninety days past you. That's the
sort of default situation. Another of the funds, which is
actually one of the very big ones. You're almost an
enforcement thinking about bailiffs an enforcement process before you're in default.
(06:53):
And so where I'm going with that is, even if
you get transparence in this idea of disclosure, it's got
to be a fea and it's got to be informed
by an industry moving to a commonality of what some
of these things mean. Right. Another example is we've seen
some bad outcomes in some product flowing into some platforms
(07:14):
Shield First Guardian for example. Actually within that was product
with the term investment grade rating attached. Right, So when
we see investment grade rating attached to things, and we
don't need to limit it to that, you think, well,
for many of us, triple B minus, an SMP triple
B minus. But what does that actually mean? So you
can't just be only about transparency, can't only be about disclosure.
(07:37):
And I think, you know, if we want to dig
a little bit more into some of the other examples
of poor practice, some that really stood out to me
they are absolutely not all about disclosure.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Okay, So I mean we are kind of running out
of time. And I also like to mention you kind
of have something to say about research houses too, which
you alluded to then, and we trust research house. We
come back to that some of those poorer practices.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, so I would say, when you look at evaluation practices,
that's pretty there's some pretty poor practice there. So there's
a page that captures that most of the funds we
review did not have effective separation between their investment committee
that approved the loans and those representatives responsible for looking
after them, what's the performance, what's the ongoing valuation? Half
(08:19):
of them, only half of the retail funds had proper
detailed credit policies for credit fund and half of the
wholesale ones didn't have policies governing the fair all allocation
of investment opportunities amongst different funds that they had interests in,
which really goes back to that conflicts of interest and
that fair allocation and fair treatment. And then finally, I
(08:39):
think you talked about liquidity and stress testing. When you
looked at the wholesale funds, only two of the eight
wholesale funds did liquidity stress testing. Now, when we see
funds that are twenty thirty billion dollars in terms of
the groups you know, coming together as a group in Australia,
these are significant mbfised non bank financial intermedia isn't in institutions. Well,
(09:01):
you think it's time for consistency across all those practices.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Okay, we're sort of out of time and there's so
much more to go down that pathway. I do want
to just talk about something that's over the past twenty
four hours or so Assets has done. Along with APPRA,
you've basically come out and said the super funds. Who's
three years ago under the Morrison government it was legislated,
I think was Retirement income Covenant? Was that what it's
called it there?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Years ago? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Peace, that's right, Peace of Lord. The idea is that
a super fund doesn't just have to look after a
person as they're saving. It's also as they're dissaving, as
they're drawing down and they need you know, they get
to sixty five or whatever they are, and they need
a plan going forward. And what you're sort of saying
is that the super funds aren't doing a very good
job at that. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Absolutely, Although what we would say is it's getting better.
Right in the past it's been not very good at all.
It's getting better, but there's inconsistency to use that term
again and the gap is widening now. It shouldn't necessarily
have needed a piece of law three years ago to
say that actually entities super funds who are there to
(10:03):
provide retirement services support for people in their retirement, So
looking after funds so they can spend them and have
a good retirement, participate in retirement, which is the purpose
of the system. Shouldn't necessarily have needed a law. But
there has been a law in place for three years
and it's pretty simple. It says that super trustees are
required to help those members their members to have a
retirement strategy, and it needs to look at risk, it
(10:25):
needs to look at access to their money, and it
needs to look at return classic stuff for fear and
greed audience. Right, So that's been in place for three
years and consistent with our mandate and what people would
expect of us, we have come back to that year
after year to see how the industry is going, and
we've worked lockstep with APPA in that regard. In terms
of the trend and where this is heading to. It's
(10:46):
getting better and this year we find it in some
pockets is getting materially better, but in some pockets it's
just really incremental improvement and change. And so the gap
is widening. And when you think about this, in the past,
folks have talked about a silver tsunami of retire Actually,
we think that's old language. Now. What it is now
is it's here constant waves of retirees. So at the
(11:07):
moment we've got one and a half million people in
retirement needing access to retirement services. In the next decade
it'll be two and a half million. That's well more
than the population of Perth. So it is time for
trustees to consistently again that word, consistently put retirement at
the heart of their strategies and then follow up and
follow through on that. So members are supporting retirement. They're
not just super trustees and not just investment vehicles. They're
(11:30):
retirement and member services vehicles.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Okay, both of these topics we've discussed simone, Super is
at the heart of them. Now it's obvious in the latter,
but even in the former and in the report you
talk about retail investors via super being involved in private credit,
and that might be totally indirectly. But super is they're
kind of like the kings of.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
The castle, or you may call them that. I call
them trustees, and I call them trustees of other people's
money who had aired provide retirement services and members services
and ensure they can participate in their retirement. So yes,
superannuation is the idiosyncratic, the dominant idiosyncratic factor about Australian markets. Absolutely.
(12:13):
And when you think about a country that will soon
have the second biggest pension system in the world but
the fifty fifth biggest population, we have a very big
amount of SUPER and it's only going to grow when
you think about that in twelve and a half percent. Now,
as we say in our report, you know there's four
pieces in it of work that have come together, including
an overarching report which identifies this idiosyncratic factor in Australia.
(12:34):
Private markets are growing globally. Public markets are potentially flat
lining globally also. But what's different here is super. It's
a really good thing if done well, and an important
part of it, if done well, is on the investment
side and asset allocation side. Those of us at Apparanastic,
all of us in the system trustees of course, most importantly,
(12:55):
we keep doing our job. You know, this is a
system that's continuing to mature as we get folks moving
into retirement, as their need for services increases, as the
funds under management, the scale of these entities only increases
the risk around member service delivery and around retirement service
delivery as well continues to grow. And that's where our
SIS really been focused. So we've got important part to
(13:17):
play in understanding markets, in holding trustees to account for
their responsibility to markets and not just members. We've also
got a really important role though, in making sure that
trustees live up to their brief and what their customers
expect when it comes to service delivery.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Simone, thanks for talking to Fear and Greed.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Great thanks for having Michel That.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Was Asset commissioner at Simone Constant. If you've got something
you'd like to know, send through your question via LinkedIn, Instagram,
Facebook or at Fearinggreed dot com todau. I'm Seanaelmer and
this is Fear and Greed Q and DA
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