September 6, 2025 • 14 mins
Two new reports - one from Hatch and another from SEEK - show Australians are torn between wanting balance, security, and growth… and the rising pressure of money. Younger workers are leaning into side hustles and hybrid models, while older workers say no pay packet is worth going back into the office full-time.
Michael Thompson, Adam Lang and Natalie MacDonald discuss what matters most: security, money, balance or growth?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Fear and Greed Q and A, where we
ask and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more.
I'm Michael Thompson and good morning Adam Lang. Hello Michael,
and good morning to you Natalie McDonald.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Today we are delving into the question of what do
we really value at work? Because we had two new
reports this week and they came out pretty much on
Monday and Tuesday of this week, so they were in
very close proximity. There we go, Thank you, Adam. We
had one from Hatch and one from seekh all right,
and they both showed how Australians are feeling about work,
(00:41):
and in one case it showed that Australians are torn
basically between wanting balanced security and growth and then the
rising pressure of money. At the same time, we got
younger workers who were leaning into leaning into side hustles
and hybrid working models, older workers saying that no pay
packet is going to be worth going back into the
office full time. So as we're going I was going
(01:03):
through this, now, how do you make sense of this?
And it feels like it is such a subjective thing
as to what you value at work. So I wanted
to find out what you both value at work? Is
it security? Is it money? Is it balance? Is it growth? Opportunities?
The Secret Report says that sixty five percent of workers
(01:26):
choose work life balance over salary, but only thirty six
percent actually feel financially secure. Adam, if I was to
start with you, is there an element do you think
that where almost financial insecurity just kind of tips people
back towards going You know what, I have a basic need,
which is I need to bring money into my household.
(01:48):
I will forego balance, I will forego all of those
other perks and I just need money.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, there is, And look, I think it starts with
how do you want your life to be and what
you want to be able to afford, and you obviously
work to the maximum of your capabilities and get the
most value for it. I think it starts at money.
There's an element of safety in that, and I don't
think that's crude. I think it's honest. Everything else that
(02:13):
you mentioned are factors. Do I feel welcome here, productive? Here?
Can I do good work? Am I in a great team?
They all matter, But I think the first step to
life balance is having the security of income.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Natalie, you talk to a lot of people. You have
another business where you have a lot of contact with
people and talk about kind of how they do their
jobs and how they kind of present their own their
lives publicly as well. Are you finding that balance is
almost seen as a non negotiable even if people are
(02:50):
going to be cost bear a cost financially. Is there
really this big shift pushed towards having this work life
balance and then that is kind of feeding into what
people are demonstrating about themselves publicly.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I think it's really interesting. I think organizations need to
be creating environments where employees can bring their whole sales
to work. But in order to do that, that's based
on a couple of different things. That is based on
the values of the organization aligning. That is based on
the culture and the supportive environment that's being created. It's
also based on being remunerated fairly. To your point, Adam,
(03:24):
if you are really worried about how you're going to
be making rent, how you're going to be paying childcare,
you're not concentrating on the job at hand. You're not
able to show up as your whole self because you've
got half your mind is somewhere else. Wandering and worrying
about how you're going to be doing those things. As
far as then that feeds into work life balance, I
do think in a post COVID environment, and yes, I
(03:44):
know we've got A and Z sending staffers back to
work and all of that type of thing, But work
life balance is just a fact of business now. It
looks different across different industries and I think that's something
that organizations are still struggling with At an enterprise level.
You can't talk to a store assistant at Woolworths about
(04:05):
being able to work from home because their job is
to be in a physical store. So what can you
offer that offers a different level of work life balance?
And I think we have to look at it through
that lens as well, that for an office worker, for
podcast hosts, for frontline staff in in hospitals, what work
life balance actually looks like. And we're clearly still in
(04:27):
a real push pull environment when it comes to that.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Where do you think age and kind of demographics come
into this then as well? Because different people at different
stages of their careers are going to have different priorities,
right And some of the research, the one from Hatch
found that growth is a bigger priority for young Australians
than salary. I suppose that makes sense, right that if
(04:53):
you are at the beginning of your career, you are
going to not necessarily will be accepting to some extent
that you're going to be paid list, but you are
going to want the opportunity to progress your career.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
But I think even if we take growth through a
slightly different lens as well, and if we look at
what are we learning, like, what are we actually learning
from this role? How is this future proofing us? How
is this positioning us for an industry change or even
upward growth, you know, not just sort of those sideways movements.
I think you know jen Z obviously entering into the workplace,
(05:23):
that that's a priority for them. I think that mid
career professionals this is something that they need to be
looking at as well. You see even a lot of
people who are considering becoming parents, or who already are parents,
they're staying in roles where they're sort of stagnating. They're
maybe not learning as much, but they need to do
it for that flexibility they know they can work from
home a couple of days a week, or for that
(05:44):
financial security as well, but I think we are going
to hit more of an inflection point where learning you know,
are you the smartest person in the room, in which
case you need to find a different room to be in.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Adam you one of your many roles is you are
in a executive coach. You speak with a lot of
senior people within organizations. How are they seeing this the
conflicting demands and the expectations of people of all ages
that some are there for the salary, some are there
for the growth opportunities, some are wanting the balance, and
(06:16):
some want the flexibility to work from home. How on
earth does a senior person within an organization try and
kind of cater to everyone while still keeping their business
productive and making money.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
There's a real mix of situations but some broad themes.
So building on what you said, Artie about different types
of roles and where you need to be situationally and geographically.
But I think everyone that I work with as an
executive coach probably shares a similar view that it's about
maximizing income. Like whether man, woman, whatever age they are,
(06:53):
whatever industry they in, I think they broadly accept that
our job as earn is to maximize whatever return we
can get in the most enjoyable and productive way. So
there's obviously there's qualifications around that. But people who say, hey,
just do what you love, Yeah, that can be the case.
But in terms of overall life balance and if you
(07:15):
want to have spare time, be fit, sleep well, raise
a family, you should maximize your income right and go
for it. And so what's going to help you do that?
And yes, it might be a passion, but more often
than not, it's just the thing that you're really good
at and the market values. So do that because there's
a lot of joy that comes from that and earning
(07:37):
productively in that space. So I would say that that's
probably the broadest theme I could say from on behalf
of the people that I work with as a coach
is that maximize your value. It's a good thing.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
What do you think then, about the rise of side
hustles because one of the other one of the other
research points out of these two reports was that eighteen
ten young Australians either already have a side hustle or
want to have one. Is this do you think is
it entrepreneurial energy or is it just the need in
(08:11):
a slightly shaky economy where jobs are changing where AI
is coming and there is no real job security long
term in almost any industry, right, Are people just taking
their future into their own hands?
Speaker 3 (08:23):
I think it's a bit of both. I think that
people are I think that people are multifaceted. And to
build on the point that Adam made, you know, I
really strongly think about the work that you want to
do and the work that you have to do, and
if you can find something that's at the intersection of that, great,
But so many, I mean, the three of us in
this room are building duel careers and the number of times,
(08:45):
at least exactly, but the number of people I've been
talking to about portfolio careers, and like you said, Michael,
as the stats are showing a period of economic insecurity,
portfolio careers and deriving salary and happiness from different places,
different sources is just what employment in twenty twenty five
(09:08):
and beyond kind of looks like.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I totally agree. I think it's actually wonderful, you know,
the traditional model. As a mature person, Michael fifty six
years of age, I grew up in a realm where
most people had long term careers a job. I love
the fact that we are all and other people are
doing the same is exploring different things that they can
do entrepreneurially. Right, So have a go, that great old
(09:34):
Australian expression of have a go, you know. I think
it is such an encouraging environment for that, for people
to have a go and explore different things, test and learn.
I think there's also been a diminishing to our credit
of shame around failure, so you don't have to fail
and walk away and hide yourself. It's okay, right, It's
(09:56):
okay to have a go and not win and have
another go. I think we're getting better at encouraging that
rather than the old tall poppy syndrome.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I saw a stat the other day that said gen
z throughout their lives will have between fifteen and seventeen
different jobs. Is that all across five to six different careers,
which is so interesting the idea that you will not
just have different jobs, but you'll actually have different careers
(10:25):
where you go into entirely different areas potentially, And to me,
that's really quite exciting.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
It's because being destigmatized and the fact that we do
see younger generations particularly they are in roles for a
much much shorter time than you ten fifteen years ago
would have been would have been considered. And the fact
that you can go into something and you can learn
what you need to from it and walk away and
not having been a failure but you have learnt from it.
(10:52):
You don't always need to know with your next role
what it is that you want to do. But sometimes
it's identifying, oh, this didn't work, but this did. Okay,
I'll lean more into that.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
We are running out of time, and I want to
put one question to both of you, right, And this
comes back to the Sikh research and it found that
Australians would rather get more annual leave, reduced hours, or
flexible rosters than things like company cars and some of
those traditional perks and benefits of it. So the question
(11:23):
then is if you were designing the ultimate package for
you today, what would it look like? What do you
value in work? And Natalie, I'll be asking you the
same thing in a moment.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Cash Yeah, I mean, look, there's also this kind of
warping I think of perks, which is fringe benefits tax,
which I think is holding our country back. But aside
from my not well versed any times on this, anytime
Adam wanders near an open microphone there. He sees it
as an opportunity for reform, to encourage reform of the
(11:56):
tax system in Australia, which I encourage this.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Well, when you.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
See obstacles that we keep putting in our way of success,
I do get irritated by that. Take any opportunity to
h and it does done.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
In a way that of financial security, because you can
have a fantastic package, but if you're being taxed the
heck out of it.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Yeah, well, companies are paying such a huge penalty for
any fringe benefit to start or not any I shouldn't say,
but for defined fringe benefits. So apart from that, it's
cash and then I choose what I do with that money.
That's really singular in my case.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Yeah, I wouldn't disagree actually, and I think this changes.
I do think it changes throughout your life and throughout
your career. I think you can look at learning and growth.
I think you can. You do have a time where
flexibility is key. I'm in a phase where it is
finan It is financial. If two small children they're not
getting cheaper, it is financial.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
But are you too working parents supporting them?
Speaker 3 (12:48):
And you have to be you need dual income households now.
But I do think that what that financial security offers
you money buys you time back. So it means, yeah,
it means that you can afford a meal service if
you want to. It means you can afford a cleaners.
You don't need to spend your weekends cleaning. You can
spend that time with your children. It means that if
(13:09):
you've got if you have even a stringent package of
and your leave, you can spend that on some fantastic
memory making vacations. So the money does buy you greatness
in other space, and it buys you your time back
in other spaces, even if your job is maybe taking
a bit more time from you than it would do
(13:29):
on a lower salary.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I love that, despite all of this research that in
the end, cash is still king right. It buys you.
It does give you the ability to craft your own
and that's okay.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
It should be a shameful discussion.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
People are allowed to want to pay their bills and
then some people are allowed to want.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
To do that.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
It's a great conversation, all right. Thank you very much, Adam,
thank you, Michael, and thank you Natalie.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
If you have a question that you would like us
to tackle and discuss and dissect and perhaps disagree on.
Send through anything on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, or at Fearangreed
dot com dot au R Michael Thompson and this is
Fear and Greed Q and a
Welcome to Fear and Greed Q and A, where we
ask and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more.
I'm Michael Thompson and good morning Adam Lang. Hello Michael,
and good morning to you Natalie McDonald.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Today we are delving into the question of what do
we really value at work? Because we had two new
reports this week and they came out pretty much on
Monday and Tuesday of this week, so they were in
very close proximity. There we go, Thank you, Adam. We
had one from Hatch and one from seekh all right,
and they both showed how Australians are feeling about work,
(00:41):
and in one case it showed that Australians are torn
basically between wanting balanced security and growth and then the
rising pressure of money. At the same time, we got
younger workers who were leaning into leaning into side hustles
and hybrid working models, older workers saying that no pay
packet is going to be worth going back into the
office full time. So as we're going I was going
(01:03):
through this, now, how do you make sense of this?
And it feels like it is such a subjective thing
as to what you value at work. So I wanted
to find out what you both value at work? Is
it security? Is it money? Is it balance? Is it growth? Opportunities?
The Secret Report says that sixty five percent of workers
(01:26):
choose work life balance over salary, but only thirty six
percent actually feel financially secure. Adam, if I was to
start with you, is there an element do you think
that where almost financial insecurity just kind of tips people
back towards going You know what, I have a basic need,
which is I need to bring money into my household.
(01:48):
I will forego balance, I will forego all of those
other perks and I just need money.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, there is, And look, I think it starts with
how do you want your life to be and what
you want to be able to afford, and you obviously
work to the maximum of your capabilities and get the
most value for it. I think it starts at money.
There's an element of safety in that, and I don't
think that's crude. I think it's honest. Everything else that
(02:13):
you mentioned are factors. Do I feel welcome here, productive? Here?
Can I do good work? Am I in a great team?
They all matter, But I think the first step to
life balance is having the security of income.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Natalie, you talk to a lot of people. You have
another business where you have a lot of contact with
people and talk about kind of how they do their
jobs and how they kind of present their own their
lives publicly as well. Are you finding that balance is
almost seen as a non negotiable even if people are
(02:50):
going to be cost bear a cost financially. Is there
really this big shift pushed towards having this work life
balance and then that is kind of feeding into what
people are demonstrating about themselves publicly.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I think it's really interesting. I think organizations need to
be creating environments where employees can bring their whole sales
to work. But in order to do that, that's based
on a couple of different things. That is based on
the values of the organization aligning. That is based on
the culture and the supportive environment that's being created. It's
also based on being remunerated fairly. To your point, Adam,
(03:24):
if you are really worried about how you're going to
be making rent, how you're going to be paying childcare,
you're not concentrating on the job at hand. You're not
able to show up as your whole self because you've
got half your mind is somewhere else. Wandering and worrying
about how you're going to be doing those things. As
far as then that feeds into work life balance, I
do think in a post COVID environment, and yes, I
(03:44):
know we've got A and Z sending staffers back to
work and all of that type of thing, But work
life balance is just a fact of business now. It
looks different across different industries and I think that's something
that organizations are still struggling with At an enterprise level.
You can't talk to a store assistant at Woolworths about
(04:05):
being able to work from home because their job is
to be in a physical store. So what can you
offer that offers a different level of work life balance?
And I think we have to look at it through
that lens as well, that for an office worker, for
podcast hosts, for frontline staff in in hospitals, what work
life balance actually looks like. And we're clearly still in
(04:27):
a real push pull environment when it comes to that.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Where do you think age and kind of demographics come
into this then as well? Because different people at different
stages of their careers are going to have different priorities,
right And some of the research, the one from Hatch
found that growth is a bigger priority for young Australians
than salary. I suppose that makes sense, right that if
(04:53):
you are at the beginning of your career, you are
going to not necessarily will be accepting to some extent
that you're going to be paid list, but you are
going to want the opportunity to progress your career.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
But I think even if we take growth through a
slightly different lens as well, and if we look at
what are we learning, like, what are we actually learning
from this role? How is this future proofing us? How
is this positioning us for an industry change or even
upward growth, you know, not just sort of those sideways movements.
I think you know jen Z obviously entering into the workplace,
(05:23):
that that's a priority for them. I think that mid
career professionals this is something that they need to be
looking at as well. You see even a lot of
people who are considering becoming parents, or who already are parents,
they're staying in roles where they're sort of stagnating. They're
maybe not learning as much, but they need to do
it for that flexibility they know they can work from
home a couple of days a week, or for that
(05:44):
financial security as well, but I think we are going
to hit more of an inflection point where learning you know,
are you the smartest person in the room, in which
case you need to find a different room to be in.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Adam you one of your many roles is you are
in a executive coach. You speak with a lot of
senior people within organizations. How are they seeing this the
conflicting demands and the expectations of people of all ages
that some are there for the salary, some are there
for the growth opportunities, some are wanting the balance, and
(06:16):
some want the flexibility to work from home. How on
earth does a senior person within an organization try and
kind of cater to everyone while still keeping their business
productive and making money.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
There's a real mix of situations but some broad themes.
So building on what you said, Artie about different types
of roles and where you need to be situationally and geographically.
But I think everyone that I work with as an
executive coach probably shares a similar view that it's about
maximizing income. Like whether man, woman, whatever age they are,
(06:53):
whatever industry they in, I think they broadly accept that
our job as earn is to maximize whatever return we
can get in the most enjoyable and productive way. So
there's obviously there's qualifications around that. But people who say, hey,
just do what you love, Yeah, that can be the case.
But in terms of overall life balance and if you
(07:15):
want to have spare time, be fit, sleep well, raise
a family, you should maximize your income right and go
for it. And so what's going to help you do that?
And yes, it might be a passion, but more often
than not, it's just the thing that you're really good
at and the market values. So do that because there's
a lot of joy that comes from that and earning
(07:37):
productively in that space. So I would say that that's
probably the broadest theme I could say from on behalf
of the people that I work with as a coach
is that maximize your value. It's a good thing.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
What do you think then, about the rise of side
hustles because one of the other one of the other
research points out of these two reports was that eighteen
ten young Australians either already have a side hustle or
want to have one. Is this do you think is
it entrepreneurial energy or is it just the need in
(08:11):
a slightly shaky economy where jobs are changing where AI
is coming and there is no real job security long
term in almost any industry, right, Are people just taking
their future into their own hands?
Speaker 3 (08:23):
I think it's a bit of both. I think that
people are I think that people are multifaceted. And to
build on the point that Adam made, you know, I
really strongly think about the work that you want to
do and the work that you have to do, and
if you can find something that's at the intersection of that, great,
But so many, I mean, the three of us in
this room are building duel careers and the number of times,
(08:45):
at least exactly, but the number of people I've been
talking to about portfolio careers, and like you said, Michael,
as the stats are showing a period of economic insecurity,
portfolio careers and deriving salary and happiness from different places,
different sources is just what employment in twenty twenty five
(09:08):
and beyond kind of looks like.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I totally agree. I think it's actually wonderful, you know,
the traditional model. As a mature person, Michael fifty six
years of age, I grew up in a realm where
most people had long term careers a job. I love
the fact that we are all and other people are
doing the same is exploring different things that they can
do entrepreneurially. Right, So have a go, that great old
(09:34):
Australian expression of have a go, you know. I think
it is such an encouraging environment for that, for people
to have a go and explore different things, test and learn.
I think there's also been a diminishing to our credit
of shame around failure, so you don't have to fail
and walk away and hide yourself. It's okay, right, It's
(09:56):
okay to have a go and not win and have
another go. I think we're getting better at encouraging that
rather than the old tall poppy syndrome.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I saw a stat the other day that said gen
z throughout their lives will have between fifteen and seventeen
different jobs. Is that all across five to six different careers,
which is so interesting the idea that you will not
just have different jobs, but you'll actually have different careers
(10:25):
where you go into entirely different areas potentially, And to me,
that's really quite exciting.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
It's because being destigmatized and the fact that we do
see younger generations particularly they are in roles for a
much much shorter time than you ten fifteen years ago
would have been would have been considered. And the fact
that you can go into something and you can learn
what you need to from it and walk away and
not having been a failure but you have learnt from it.
(10:52):
You don't always need to know with your next role
what it is that you want to do. But sometimes
it's identifying, oh, this didn't work, but this did. Okay,
I'll lean more into that.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
We are running out of time, and I want to
put one question to both of you, right, And this
comes back to the Sikh research and it found that
Australians would rather get more annual leave, reduced hours, or
flexible rosters than things like company cars and some of
those traditional perks and benefits of it. So the question
(11:23):
then is if you were designing the ultimate package for
you today, what would it look like? What do you
value in work? And Natalie, I'll be asking you the
same thing in a moment.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Cash Yeah, I mean, look, there's also this kind of
warping I think of perks, which is fringe benefits tax,
which I think is holding our country back. But aside
from my not well versed any times on this, anytime
Adam wanders near an open microphone there. He sees it
as an opportunity for reform, to encourage reform of the
(11:56):
tax system in Australia, which I encourage this.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Well, when you.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
See obstacles that we keep putting in our way of success,
I do get irritated by that. Take any opportunity to
h and it does done.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
In a way that of financial security, because you can
have a fantastic package, but if you're being taxed the
heck out of it.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Yeah, well, companies are paying such a huge penalty for
any fringe benefit to start or not any I shouldn't say,
but for defined fringe benefits. So apart from that, it's
cash and then I choose what I do with that money.
That's really singular in my case.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Yeah, I wouldn't disagree actually, and I think this changes.
I do think it changes throughout your life and throughout
your career. I think you can look at learning and growth.
I think you can. You do have a time where
flexibility is key. I'm in a phase where it is
finan It is financial. If two small children they're not
getting cheaper, it is financial.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
But are you too working parents supporting them?
Speaker 3 (12:48):
And you have to be you need dual income households now.
But I do think that what that financial security offers
you money buys you time back. So it means, yeah,
it means that you can afford a meal service if
you want to. It means you can afford a cleaners.
You don't need to spend your weekends cleaning. You can
spend that time with your children. It means that if
(13:09):
you've got if you have even a stringent package of
and your leave, you can spend that on some fantastic
memory making vacations. So the money does buy you greatness
in other space, and it buys you your time back
in other spaces, even if your job is maybe taking
a bit more time from you than it would do
(13:29):
on a lower salary.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I love that, despite all of this research that in
the end, cash is still king right. It buys you.
It does give you the ability to craft your own
and that's okay.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
It should be a shameful discussion.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
People are allowed to want to pay their bills and
then some people are allowed to want.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
To do that.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
It's a great conversation, all right. Thank you very much, Adam,
thank you, Michael, and thank you Natalie.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
If you have a question that you would like us
to tackle and discuss and dissect and perhaps disagree on.
Send through anything on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, or at Fearangreed
dot com dot au R Michael Thompson and this is
Fear and Greed Q and a
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