August 14, 2025 • 10 mins
Unions have proposed a four-day working week. The government has rejected it. Will we ever see it happen?
Fear & Greed Q+A: Join Michael Thompson & Adam Lang as they answer questions on business, investing, economics, politics and more. If you have your own question, get in touch via our website, LinkedIn, Instagram or Facebook!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Fear and Greed Q and A, where we
ask and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more.
Are Michael Thompson and Good morning, Adam Lang.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Good morning Michael, Adam.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
The question today is a four day working week just
a pipe dream?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Now?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Obviously there's been a lot of talk about this this
week with the ACTU, the Australian Council of Trade Unions, Adam,
for your benefit, can you know that you are not
going to let me get away with the initialism? It's
called for a four day working week as part of
its submission to the Roundtable and Economic Reform next week.
The government has rejected it basically said, look, the ACTU
(00:45):
is welcome to put these suggestions for it doesn't mean
it's going to become government policy. Business doesn't like it.
I think this great quote describing it as a populist
anti productivity thought bubble from the unions and there there's
an element in that, the anti productivity part, which I
think is really interesting because this suggestion from the ACTU
(01:07):
comes at the same time as we've got the Reserve
Bank warning about really what is becoming a productivity crisis
in this country, putting the handbrake on economic growth. So
got a lot of people excited when this four day
working week suggestion came up. Do you think, Adam, that
we will ever get to a four day work week? Look?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
I do, but I don't think that means that it
can work for everyone. In fact, I don't think it
can work for everyone if you think about communication right,
and I know this is slightly left field, but you
and I, Michael, talking to each other in a studio
in person versus a phone conversation versus a virtual meeting,
they're very different. Like in person, we can both watch
(01:49):
how each other's expressing themselves verbally, nonverbally. We can see
when each other is in pressure or night, or happy
or not. It gets progressively difficult when you're in a
virtual environment or on the phone, and some work just
simply can't be done any other way than in person.
But I think at a minimal level, if you care
about your team, you care about inducting people, getting them
(02:13):
into their job so they understand it, they're safe at work,
there's certain things that just have to be done in person,
and so I don't think the four day working week
can be made equally available and beneficial to all, I
think the best people to decide that are the teams themselves,
the businesses themselves. So sports an obviously an example, right,
you know, construction, retail, hospitality. You have to be there
(02:37):
to deliver that service well by yourself or as a teammate.
And the best teams are always the ones that have
a connection and that is often best informed in person, right,
and that where people are working together to safely deliver
the best possible customer service and obviously profit for companies
in a very competitive market. To me, that does lean
(02:59):
way towards being in person a lot because you can
literally see each other, see how we're acting, what we're
role modeling, what's working, what isn't.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
And so this kind of then gets into the efficiency
and the productivity side of it. I'm curious to see
kind of how this productivity challenge that we have that
was made very very clear this week by the Reserve Bank.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
And has been a case for decades.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, there is no surprise, it's just really been kind
of brought to the fore by some of the commentary
this week. Whether this was just a case of really
bad timing then from the ACTU to come out with
their four day working week within twenty four hours of
the RBA warning, because it feels as though there is
an element of trying to reap the rewards of being
(03:44):
more productive or be productive without actually getting to that
level of productivity. Yet.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, well that's really the qualifying factor, isn't it. Can
it work for businesses and employees alike? And that is
not an easy question to navigate. I think there's most
jobs will defer to at least sometime in person so
that you can be connected to the company you work with.
Many teams will only be able to deliver that together. Yeah,
(04:12):
and some of the if you're an emergency services person
in a hospital, a restaurant, in a sporting arena, they
have to be delivered in person. And you know, thankfully
we still get to do things in person. You know,
it's not so long ago that we were stopped for
doing that and that was ghastly right. But there have
been some experiments with this which I think really useful data.
(04:33):
There's been trials in the UK, there's been trials in Iceland.
Those particular trials have stated that they have had no
drop in productivity with better well being and retention. So
in those instances they found a way to make it
at least productivity neutral or even better.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
So is that by working a four day Yes.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
By working a four day week and obviously restricting who
delivers their service to those limited times. Okay, and they've
had to reschedule, re roster, like maybe decide on opening
hours or availability times. You know, there's been lots of
ways that they've tested doing that. In New Zealand, a company,
Perpetual Guardian, was able to do that and showed a
(05:15):
productivity jump of twenty five percent. In some ways you
look at that and go, that's fantastic. Then you're wondering
what were you doing before you know it stopped you
from achieving that. Manufacturing Obviously, in person, healthcare, entertainment, hospitality,
they will always face bigger hurdles in how to make
this work well and still be productive. I think it's
(05:36):
really difficult in the realm to mandate. So to your question,
do you ever think we'll get to a four day
working week? When I answer is yes, but it doesn't
mean it can work for everyone, and I don't think
it will ever work all of the time. Right. I
think it should be a choice based on commercial realities,
not a government government mandate because they don't know these businesses, right,
they don't know how to operate them. And I think
(05:58):
so we'll see it in some sect and companies, but
not really as a national template.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
It is interesting that we get into them the argument
or the discussion over kind of how many hours should
we be working when you can still be productive. It's
based on the five day working week of forty hours
right on six days, you know, yeah, exactly, yeah, And
it was really I think Henry Ford, wasn't it that
kind of popularized the five day, forty hour working week,
(06:29):
and some countries have continued to kind of play around.
Play around makes it sound like they're just experiment experimenting
with employment. But I know there was a study done
by the OECD into productivity of nations and I think
Luxembourg came out on top as the most productive nation,
(06:49):
and the average working week in that country is twenty
nine hours, which does say something about the fact that, Okay,
if you can become more productive in the way that
you do your job and the way that we run
our businesses, then you can actually maintain that level of
productivity by perhaps working fewer hours, Which leads me to
(07:09):
AI and technology. Do you think this is the key
to it? Are we at this moment in time now
where we have the potential to make so many roles
more productive because we have the support of technology. If
there's going to be a time for a four day
working week, is now the time to be having that conversation?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Okay, Yes, there's a However, of course being a recovering
economist on the one hand, yes, on the other hand,
so in essence, AI is available to everybody. So if
everyone becomes more productive, then in a competitive market, you've
still got to compete with that. It's just the tide
is lifted, right, so everyone's more productive. What's going to
(07:53):
make you stand out and grab more market share than
your competitor? So I do think this is the time, right,
But it's always the time, you know, to test and
learn from what can work best. But AI, the benefits
from it are going to be relative to all and
relative to your industry and the competitive set. So I
(08:14):
don't know that that is the cure all for the
productivity question.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Okay, in terms of the overall question, will we get there?
Maybe definitely it's a channeling oasis there, but it is
it's not necessarily anytime soon. But it is still a
good conversation to have, and I do admire the fact
that the Act you chose this time to put it
forward because they are worthy conversations, right.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
I totally agree. I think in the contest of ideas,
the timing should be always and so I think that
to the government's credit, they're having this forum for discussion
on productivity. I think that's great. I think it's way
too rare and way too often it ends in little
more than talk. You know, most of these ideas that
(09:04):
are being talked about now have been around for some time.
They've been the discussions of white papers, commissions, inquiries, so
on and so on, but they just haven't been done.
And it's I understand the Prime Minister's caution around, you know,
what they took to the election and what they can
expect to do from here. But I think we do
need to see far more action. I think we've had,
(09:27):
We've got sufficient talk, and I think there are some problems,
including the cost of housing, that demand a solution much
sooner than the next election cycle.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
All right, but as far as the four day working
week goes, you take Monday off, I'll take next Tuesday off,
let's just let's just experimented, all right.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Thanks very much, Adam, Thank you Michael.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
And remember, if you've got something that you'd like to know,
then please send three your question on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook,
or at Fear and Greed dot com todau and we
shall delve into it on an upcoming episode. Are Michael
Thompson and this is Fear and Greed Q and A
do you
Welcome to Fear and Greed Q and A, where we
ask and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more.
Are Michael Thompson and Good morning, Adam Lang.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Good morning Michael, Adam.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
The question today is a four day working week just
a pipe dream?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Now?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Obviously there's been a lot of talk about this this
week with the ACTU, the Australian Council of Trade Unions, Adam,
for your benefit, can you know that you are not
going to let me get away with the initialism? It's
called for a four day working week as part of
its submission to the Roundtable and Economic Reform next week.
The government has rejected it basically said, look, the ACTU
(00:45):
is welcome to put these suggestions for it doesn't mean
it's going to become government policy. Business doesn't like it.
I think this great quote describing it as a populist
anti productivity thought bubble from the unions and there there's
an element in that, the anti productivity part, which I
think is really interesting because this suggestion from the ACTU
(01:07):
comes at the same time as we've got the Reserve
Bank warning about really what is becoming a productivity crisis
in this country, putting the handbrake on economic growth. So
got a lot of people excited when this four day
working week suggestion came up. Do you think, Adam, that
we will ever get to a four day work week? Look?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
I do, but I don't think that means that it
can work for everyone. In fact, I don't think it
can work for everyone if you think about communication right,
and I know this is slightly left field, but you
and I, Michael, talking to each other in a studio
in person versus a phone conversation versus a virtual meeting,
they're very different. Like in person, we can both watch
(01:49):
how each other's expressing themselves verbally, nonverbally. We can see
when each other is in pressure or night, or happy
or not. It gets progressively difficult when you're in a
virtual environment or on the phone, and some work just
simply can't be done any other way than in person.
But I think at a minimal level, if you care
about your team, you care about inducting people, getting them
(02:13):
into their job so they understand it, they're safe at work,
there's certain things that just have to be done in person,
and so I don't think the four day working week
can be made equally available and beneficial to all, I
think the best people to decide that are the teams themselves,
the businesses themselves. So sports an obviously an example, right,
you know, construction, retail, hospitality. You have to be there
(02:37):
to deliver that service well by yourself or as a teammate.
And the best teams are always the ones that have
a connection and that is often best informed in person, right,
and that where people are working together to safely deliver
the best possible customer service and obviously profit for companies
in a very competitive market. To me, that does lean
(02:59):
way towards being in person a lot because you can
literally see each other, see how we're acting, what we're
role modeling, what's working, what isn't.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
And so this kind of then gets into the efficiency
and the productivity side of it. I'm curious to see
kind of how this productivity challenge that we have that
was made very very clear this week by the Reserve Bank.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
And has been a case for decades.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, there is no surprise, it's just really been kind
of brought to the fore by some of the commentary
this week. Whether this was just a case of really
bad timing then from the ACTU to come out with
their four day working week within twenty four hours of
the RBA warning, because it feels as though there is
an element of trying to reap the rewards of being
(03:44):
more productive or be productive without actually getting to that
level of productivity. Yet.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, well that's really the qualifying factor, isn't it. Can
it work for businesses and employees alike? And that is
not an easy question to navigate. I think there's most
jobs will defer to at least sometime in person so
that you can be connected to the company you work with.
Many teams will only be able to deliver that together. Yeah,
(04:12):
and some of the if you're an emergency services person
in a hospital, a restaurant, in a sporting arena, they
have to be delivered in person. And you know, thankfully
we still get to do things in person. You know,
it's not so long ago that we were stopped for
doing that and that was ghastly right. But there have
been some experiments with this which I think really useful data.
(04:33):
There's been trials in the UK, there's been trials in Iceland.
Those particular trials have stated that they have had no
drop in productivity with better well being and retention. So
in those instances they found a way to make it
at least productivity neutral or even better.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
So is that by working a four day Yes.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
By working a four day week and obviously restricting who
delivers their service to those limited times. Okay, and they've
had to reschedule, re roster, like maybe decide on opening
hours or availability times. You know, there's been lots of
ways that they've tested doing that. In New Zealand, a company,
Perpetual Guardian, was able to do that and showed a
(05:15):
productivity jump of twenty five percent. In some ways you
look at that and go, that's fantastic. Then you're wondering
what were you doing before you know it stopped you
from achieving that. Manufacturing Obviously, in person, healthcare, entertainment, hospitality,
they will always face bigger hurdles in how to make
this work well and still be productive. I think it's
(05:36):
really difficult in the realm to mandate. So to your question,
do you ever think we'll get to a four day
working week? When I answer is yes, but it doesn't
mean it can work for everyone, and I don't think
it will ever work all of the time. Right. I
think it should be a choice based on commercial realities,
not a government government mandate because they don't know these businesses, right,
they don't know how to operate them. And I think
(05:58):
so we'll see it in some sect and companies, but
not really as a national template.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
It is interesting that we get into them the argument
or the discussion over kind of how many hours should
we be working when you can still be productive. It's
based on the five day working week of forty hours
right on six days, you know, yeah, exactly, yeah, And
it was really I think Henry Ford, wasn't it that
kind of popularized the five day, forty hour working week,
(06:29):
and some countries have continued to kind of play around.
Play around makes it sound like they're just experiment experimenting
with employment. But I know there was a study done
by the OECD into productivity of nations and I think
Luxembourg came out on top as the most productive nation,
(06:49):
and the average working week in that country is twenty
nine hours, which does say something about the fact that, Okay,
if you can become more productive in the way that
you do your job and the way that we run
our businesses, then you can actually maintain that level of
productivity by perhaps working fewer hours, Which leads me to
(07:09):
AI and technology. Do you think this is the key
to it? Are we at this moment in time now
where we have the potential to make so many roles
more productive because we have the support of technology. If
there's going to be a time for a four day
working week, is now the time to be having that conversation?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Okay, Yes, there's a However, of course being a recovering
economist on the one hand, yes, on the other hand,
so in essence, AI is available to everybody. So if
everyone becomes more productive, then in a competitive market, you've
still got to compete with that. It's just the tide
is lifted, right, so everyone's more productive. What's going to
(07:53):
make you stand out and grab more market share than
your competitor? So I do think this is the time, right,
But it's always the time, you know, to test and
learn from what can work best. But AI, the benefits
from it are going to be relative to all and
relative to your industry and the competitive set. So I
(08:14):
don't know that that is the cure all for the
productivity question.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Okay, in terms of the overall question, will we get there?
Maybe definitely it's a channeling oasis there, but it is
it's not necessarily anytime soon. But it is still a
good conversation to have, and I do admire the fact
that the Act you chose this time to put it
forward because they are worthy conversations, right.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
I totally agree. I think in the contest of ideas,
the timing should be always and so I think that
to the government's credit, they're having this forum for discussion
on productivity. I think that's great. I think it's way
too rare and way too often it ends in little
more than talk. You know, most of these ideas that
(09:04):
are being talked about now have been around for some time.
They've been the discussions of white papers, commissions, inquiries, so
on and so on, but they just haven't been done.
And it's I understand the Prime Minister's caution around, you know,
what they took to the election and what they can
expect to do from here. But I think we do
need to see far more action. I think we've had,
(09:27):
We've got sufficient talk, and I think there are some problems,
including the cost of housing, that demand a solution much
sooner than the next election cycle.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
All right, but as far as the four day working
week goes, you take Monday off, I'll take next Tuesday off,
let's just let's just experimented, all right.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Thanks very much, Adam, Thank you Michael.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
And remember, if you've got something that you'd like to know,
then please send three your question on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook,
or at Fear and Greed dot com todau and we
shall delve into it on an upcoming episode. Are Michael
Thompson and this is Fear and Greed Q and A
do you
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