July 22, 2025 • 24 mins
George is joined by the fearless activist and author Hope Giselle. Hope was the first openly trans woman to graduate from Alabama State University. Hope talks to George about the current attacks on trans rights, speaking at the 60th Anniversary of the March on Washington, and making a documentary about her own life, "Not Your Average Girl."
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The one thing that I will tell people, and I
tell people all the time.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
You want a white supremacist and a black panther party
person to get along say something about gay folks.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
That's Hoped is a groundbreaking activist, author, and speaker. She's
been blazing trails as a black trans woman fighting for justice.
Today you'll hear Hope share her powerful journey from growing
up in Miami to leading national movements, to making her
new documentary Not Your Average Girl, and offer bold, unapologetic
insight on what real allyship and empowerment look like.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I use that moment to do what I've always done,
which is to remind you that not only am I
here to talk about deliberation of all black folks, not
just trans people, not just LGBTQ plus people, but I'm
also here to remind you that you are never gonna
win until you accept that a part of me winning
means that I have to be crossing the fitness line with.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
You, singing in them heavy handed to the world. Take
a super branding and you spoke your guy you know
what the plan is, or became a Latin you know
when to seem to stand me.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
My name is George M. Johnson.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number
one most challenged.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Book in the United States. This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
A show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and who refuse to be silenced.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Today's guest Hope Giselle.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Hello everyone, I want to welcome you all to another
episode of Fighting Words. I am here today with someone
who does not mince her words at all. She is fierce,
she is loyal, she is not to be played with.
Hope Giselle, how are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
I'm so good. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
We start to show off the same way I think
our bios precede us. People don't really know who we
are as people. I just want you to let everyone
want to know who is Hope Giselle.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Hope Jazelle is an author, advocate, activist, DEI specialist, and
just all around that bage.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You know.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I feel like I don't give myself enough credit, but
I've been doing a lot of this work since my
inventory days of being a college student at Alabama State University.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
What folks don't know. It's that I'm an Abbot protura community.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I really enjoy art museums and all of those things,
and I.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Think that I'm a really well rounded individual.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Outside of the things that folks like to talk about
when I hear my name.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
We have our starts in community very early, and people
don't understand that.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
People just see where we are today.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
With me, it's like, oh, yeah, you wrote the book,
and well, yes, and there was a lot of shit
that came before I ever got to a place of
writing a book. So I'm glad that you brought up
college because that was where a lot of your groundwork
of was being done. You went to Alabama State University
historically back college, you started the school's first group for
(03:00):
LGBTQ students, and you were they're going to use the
term openly trands when I was like, well, you were
yourself and you were very open about who you were.
So what was your experience like on the campus.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I got the best education that I think that an
AHBC you could have given me. I had the worst
social experience that I think that a college could have
given me.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Wow, I've always loved school.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
I've always loved education and learning things and discourse, whether
that be social or educational. I love the campus environment,
but when you are the openly queer kid on a
campus full of other queer kids, because there were a
lot of us, right, yeah, yeah, they all decided to assimilate.
They wanted to plage more than they wanted to be queer.
(03:43):
They wanted to play more than they wanted to be queer.
Be on the drum line, one of them wanted to
be queer. Yeah, And so they all learned to navigate
spaces differently than me, which made me even more of
a target because them people would compare me and say, well,
why don't you just do what some one something doing?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Right? Why you got to word it, but be sure.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I decided very early on that if I was going
to have a good time, that I needed to make it.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
And that's the reason why Amplified was started.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I created an Aide benefit concert which was essentially just me,
my fantasy, and it was called the Beyonce Experience, and
it was just.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Me and drag what's two hours.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
It was a beautiful thing because it taught me how
to organize very early. You have to speak up for
myself very early to do the research that was necessary,
being able to talk to administration and sit there and say, well,
Title nine.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Said, you know, and you can't you know, like all
of these different things.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
And so my college experience was beautiful in the regard
to what I do now because it taught me how
to do what I do now on a very micro scale.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, you are known as the first transperson from Alabama
State University to graduate with your master's degree and a
master's degree. And since since that time do you know
of any other Absolutely the fact that you broke that door.
What does that experience feel like? Because visibility and representation,
I would say as a start, but to know that
you were a starting point for someone else.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
So the person and I give him Miss Flowers all
the time.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
His name is Caleb Gullies, the Caribbean man from Saint Croix.
He also happens to be the only other trans student
that was there at the time, and Kayla came from Saint.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Froid with a vision.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Unlike me being from Miami here, Caleb didn't have a
possibility model up with a trans man could be look
like you know what that was supposed to be. He
came from Saint Croix to his degree into transition.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
If you were not helping him do either one of
those things, you were in the way.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Caleb found out about me, and we became very quick friends,
and he was a year behind me. And so right
after I graduated, Caleb graduated. And then there have been
that I know of at least four young trans women
who have graduated after and they all hit me up
every single hong.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
I love that I've.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Never gotten a chance to meet them in person, but
they all will find a way to like reach out
to me via DM or some like that, and they
will all say thanks to you. That makes me feel
so good that my legacy is like to know that
these young girls they fear about the impact that full
time folks will tell them like, you are lucky that
girl had to jump through hoops for y'all, And all
of those young ladies are very empathetic to that and
(06:16):
also very thankful.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
I always say, when we are doing things that are
making history, no one's thinking about making history. Even when
All Boys on Blue hit the York Times of a
seller list and when it hit number one as the
most bamed book in the country, that was never a goal.
It was like a title that got placed upon something
and then you find out afterwards that you've done something
historic and people are like, well, what were you thinking
(06:47):
about when you hit the list? I actually missed the
phone call because I was making lunch, like I was.
I was literally making lunch and my phone was on vibrate.
So when the publisher even called me to say that
we finally had hit the list, it was this big
deal and all of that, I was like, I really
wasn't thinking about it because I was making lunch. I
just happened to pick my phone up and see that
I had four missed calls from like my publisher and
(07:08):
from friends and stuff who had already seen it happen.
These things that we do in the midst of doing them,
we don't know that we're always doing this thing that
we have to say, I'm supposed to do this thing.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
You know.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Why I write for young adults and what they need
to hear more of is like, you can have a
voice even if you're seventeen, eighteen nineteen, Like that's where
you actually that's where you start to try and find
your voice. What gave you that confidence from that age?
What was that thing in you that made you start
to try and find your voice.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
At that time, do you know where I found my voice?
That wasn't in college? I remember I was about seven
years old.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I watched an episode of Moesha believe it or not,
the episode about the talent shows. I remember, you know,
wanted to do this college show. She had this idea.
She goes to the school. They allowed them to do
the talent show. It was great, and I remember stating
there and I was like, do a talent show. And
thankfully my principal, Doctor Morley god rests.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
So he actually just passed away this year.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
But Dr Martley had always made his office an open
door policy, and even as that been like, I just
had this tenacity about me and so I saw that
so and I could not go I could barely go
to sleep good because I was like, I'm going to
talk to DODR. Morley about this in the morning. And
I'm Martinton was office in the morning, you know, And
sure enough.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
I'm sitting in the chair and I was like, DODR. Marley,
we need a talent show.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
He was the first person that gave me the astronomy
as a chipe, I feel.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Like my voice mattered, and he was like think that
that's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
He told me that the talent show would be in
my hand and that he would make sure that the
musical director and some other folks were doing the adulting stuff.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
But he was like, this is up to you.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
You got to do the auditions, you have to do
the so and so, you have to do it all,
and you still have to get good grades. And I
worked my button offs, and I worked with the musical director,
and I worked with the choir teacher, and we ended
up getting this talent show up. And they named the
talent show after me as my dead name. So I
won't say it, but we had that talent show up
until the school closed, which was three years ago.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Finding my voice meant that, like, I find the power
and being able to ask for the things that people
told me that I wouldn't be able to get.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
When we come back, Hope shares the moment that made
her realize just how hard vulnerability can be.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And now back to my conversation with Hope.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Giselle, you're constantly finding new ways to amplify your message
in a very poignant way, a very precise way, a
very digestible way for people to un stand. You are
very great at calling out and also calling in.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
And you're a writer.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
You wrote your first book, was it in twenty eighteen,
Becoming Hope? Removing the Disguise, a memoir that chronicled your
life and self discovery. I know what it's like for me,
even five years later, and when people come up to
me and tell me certain things in the book that
triggered them, or there is a trauma dumping that happens
at times when I meet people, And I'm getting better
(10:27):
at being braced for it, because some people's connection to
me is through some of the lighter parts of the book,
but some people's connection to my stories through some of
the darker parts of the book that they feel they
need to just say to me. And I have learned
to hold it and not keep it. What was that
experience like being so vulnerable?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
I don't think that it hit me until those heavier parts,
right like when I talked people through the weekend that
my father died and being in a limo and like
getting ready to go into this party with my brand
and hearing the boys mail from my uncle feeling upset
because why would you leave a voicemail? And then also
said my dad just died. We just got out of
(11:06):
this limousine. It's my girl's birthday, and like, I can't
ruin this for everybody. And so going back to that moment,
I wish I would have went home. I had a
beautiful night, but like part of me as an adult,
which is that I would have went home. And then
I think, like when I talk about within the first chapter,
the first time that I was sexually assaulted by my bully,
(11:28):
you know, and realizing in real time that like, hey,
this was going to be what it was, that men
like this were going to be able to do things
like he had done to me, and even though he
was a part of the act, he would walk away
and I would always be the person that was left
to be insulted, be be rated, be vilified for a
moment that sat with me really, really toughly. But I
(11:49):
think I'm always vulnerable. I really lived my life in
this space up. You can't use it against me if
I told you, I have things that I keep for myself.
The thing that I think that people might be able
to find out through a little bit of research on
their own are all things that I'm willing to share
because why not You're not going to make me feel
bad about this ten years from now, because I told
you it's just about being intentionally vulnerable in a way
(12:10):
that I'm going to have to live with.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
And I knew that when I was writing it.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
For me, it was like, if I keep something out
of the book that could have saved someone or help someone,
I'm going to feel much worse about that. That vulnerability,
in many ways has led you to be even more
vulnerable with the trailer for your documentary, Can you please
tell us about this documentary?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Not Your Average Girl has been a lifelong project that
I didn't realize was a project until it actually came
to fruition, right. I've always been a documentarian. I've always
been a person that's wanted to tell my story. I've
always been a person that's been very didactic in the
way that I speak of myself personally, because I know
that my story is, in and of itself, a teachable moment.
No matter what facet of life you hang on to,
(12:53):
whether you're a trans person, it's this person, a black person,
a woman, a boy, a boy who wants to be
a girl, a girl who's trying to be whatever it
is is. I think that there's something that you can
learn from watching me navigate the world. The vulnerability of
not your average girl came from the space of being
inspired Beyonce. Just all knows Carter is one of the
greatest storytellers of our time. Ms Mamas knows how to
(13:15):
put together some cinematic beauty. And when she did life
This but a Dream, I remember loving because it felt
so real. It felt like she's sitting in the house
on the couch with the braids and the bun.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
And you know, while there were moments of the Beyonce.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
That we know, we got to see this version of
part that we typically get it like, we don't get
to see the one with the tights and no socks,
walking around the house with the headmand, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
And when I.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Started to really record my life, they started to hold
on some pieces and moments. People are gonna see just
this version of me that I curate daily because that's
the version that I want y'all to see. But the
part that people don't see, in the part that people
don't understand, and the things that people tell me to do,
like lean into myself and take a break and rest.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Y'all gotta understand why I can't. Yeah, I have to.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Understand why when I'm tired, and when you think I
have all of this space and you haven't seen me
for a while, so you think that I'm resting in
even when I'm out of the country, you think it's
a vacation.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
It's never really a vacation. I'm always working, I'm always
doing it.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
I'm always there's always a fire that I'm putting out
behind the scenes. There's always these things and these people
in these parts of the story that I don't tell
in order to save people. And I just got tired
of it because to your point, there's a part of
my story that I'm leaving out that can help somebody.
There's a part of me that wants people to like,
walk with me through this, walk with me through what
(14:35):
it means to have one of the best years of
your life and one of the worst health news is
that I can possibly have in my life right now.
You know, life is great, but I'm in the hospital
every other day. Life is amazing, but I'm taking radiation pills.
Life is beautiful, but I'm sitting in this chemotherapy chair
and I forgot to show up. People don't understand that
I didn't cut my locks because oh hope, it's just
(14:56):
like a wig and like a switch up.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I cut my locks because they fell out. Yeah, my weddings,
you know, because my key always doing what it was
supposed to do. But that wasn't the plan. That wasn't
what I wanted to look like on my wedding day.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
But the show goes on, and right after that there's
a march, and after the march there's the thing, and
after the thing, there's another thing, and it's plain another play,
another club next up.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
I think that's so eloquently put because I feel the
same way in many aspects. You try to space your
life out, but you just don't know when things are
going to hit, and when they do it, it's like, damn,
I still got to show up. And that's what you
continue to do. So you share what you share for
people to see. I find a lot of people put
personas to the world and then are disappointed when they
(15:38):
meet you and it doesn't match the persona they have
built up of you near head because of what you shared.
How do you make sure that your social media stays
true to you and that you don't become a persona
of you, the.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Persona of Hope, Zoe and Hope. You know they they
live at the same and bract time. And I think
that that's the reason why I'm able to navigate some
so well, because.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
They're not for right.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah, Hope, Gizzelle, she just knows how to coaches, which
a little bit right. Hope just don't knows somebody to
like turn it on and knows when the moment requires
a certain version or a certain throne and inflection or
whatever the case may be. And Hope just don't give
a fuck how we come up. It's how we come out,
you know. And I think that does Heelle is trying
to get money she needs with Egg, she has a
(16:23):
common goal. There's a common denominator. And then there's Hope,
who was just passionate about the work. And Hope Jazelle
can't exist if Hope is not there, because if Pope
don't care, then Hope Dezel can't make the money. I
can say that like I am upset and I'm sad,
and I can cry and move my eyes out because
Kamala didn't win. And I can also be the person
that comes back the next day and say, here's the
(16:44):
list of things that we need to do to ensure
that all these other people win in the primaries. And
then I can get on my lap that night and
say and also suck all of that because these Democrats
ain't doing what they want to be late make it easier. Right,
I have an audience that is able and capable of
receiving look bad. Yes, and they have to be able
to choose. Right. All I do is I give them
(17:04):
the option to choose. You join my Patreon, you're gonna
get hope. If you only follow me on socials, you're
gonna get Hope to zell most of this line every
now and then you'll be gifted with the whole video. Right. Yes,
I think I do a really great job by just
reminding myself that the audience is not slow and give
them credit for being able to retain multiple types of
(17:25):
information at one time.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
When we come back, Hope reflex on being the first
black trans woman to speak at the March on Washington.
(18:02):
And now back to my conversation with Hope, Jozelle, and
so you are in a category that I like to
call like black firsts. You were the first transgender woman
to deliver a keynote speech at NASA making an impact
in diversity, equity and inclusion, which you work on.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
But I think even bigger than that.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Speaking at the sixtieth anniversary of the March on Washington,
and for those who don't know, the March on Washington
didn't even allow black women, SiZ black women to speak,
including Miss Dorothy Hyde, who was one of the main
architects of that march, and they would not allow her
to speak. Only men spoke that day sixty years later,
(18:42):
to be speaking on a commemoration of that huge moment
for civil rights and also knowing that you're breaking barrier
of a place that didn't even allow black women to speak,
what was that moment like as a culminating moment, and
what did it feel like.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I think that the community would like to have us
believe that all black people are just happy for all
black people. But even in that phase, folks recognize that
I was there as that trans person, and all of
a sudden, me and my husband hearing people whisper about
like y'all gonna let him speak, you know, like all
the things, and it's just like fire to resident was
(19:21):
also an architect of this march without an openly black
gay man like y'all wouldn't even have this to commemorate
sixty years later, right, And so for me, it was.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
The biggest fuck you. Yeah, And I say that.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
With all the love in my heart, like it was
the biggest fuck you to bigotry, the biggest fuck you
to racism, the biggest fuck you to sexism and misogyny
and patriarchy and all of the things that I think
that we're still having to deal with and put up.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
With you now, even intercommunally.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, as a black trans woman having people sit there
and roll their eyes and stop their feet and I'm
talking about black liberation because they don't like the messenger.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
You know like that, that to me was upsetting but
not surprising it right.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I feel like I used that.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Moment to do what I've always done, which is to
remind you that not only am I here to talk
about the liliteration of all black folks, not just trans people,
not just LGBTQA plus people, but I'm also here to
remind you that you are never gonna win until you
accept that a part of me winning means that I
have to be crossing the finish line with you can
see you to hand racism and white supremacy the win
(20:28):
because the same way that we have these conversations amongst
each other, y'all all think that these folks that don't
like y'all don't look back and see you want to
crack that armor, go mess with their gay people. You
want to crack that armor, Go mess with their trans people,
because they don't care about that. The one thing that
I will tell people, and I tell people all the time,
you want a white supremacist and a black Panther party
person to get along, say something about gay folks. The
(20:49):
only difference to is is that after that conversation, that
white supremacist, that KKK member is still going to look
to his people and say, I don't care if you trans?
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Do you not like nigger? So what is next for
Hope to sell?
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I am making a move a cross country going to
LA and I'm really really excited about it. There's a
couple of products that I'm working on with the Pop
Culture Collab or Becoming America, so I'm working with them
as well as Array Studios, and so there's a couple
of other things, and I'm also working for.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Just some other stuff that I can't say. So I
was like I made it.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
But the things that I can say is that I
am about to do a major move which I'm really
excited about to be going back to the West Coast.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I lived there for a little while.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I'm just excited to go back there and see what
new route sacking plant and what new connections I can make.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's super important. I've moved
several times myself. It's always important to times change the
areas we live in as we're growing and as we're
learning who we are. The final thing we always like
when people live with us with some words that we
can live by. My favorite quote is, of course Tony
Morrison's quote is the book you want to read and
(22:14):
hasn't been written yet, then you must write it. What
are some words that you are currently living by? Absolutely,
run your race. Run your race.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
There's going to be times where there are going to
be folks that are going to try to convince you
that their way is better. But what I've learned and
being able to navigate this life as an adult, is
that when you run the race that is built for you,
you can't lose. It doesn't matter how long it takes
you to get to that finish line. But running the
race that was built for you is going to keep
you in a position that you can always succeed in,
(22:41):
even if you have to read calibrate the goalpost a
couple of times you can't feel because it's yours. You
were meant to cross the finish line. How long's it
takes you to get there, that's a whole different story.
But run your race, Run yours.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Beautiful Hope.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
I really really want to thank you for coming to
the show today. You are are just one of the
most radical leaders that we have. Please continue to share
your voice and continue to inspire us all to share
our own voices.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Oh, thank you so much for having me. It was
really ray.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I always enjoy our time together, So thank you so
much for having me.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
If it ain't right, fucking fix it, whatever it takes.
These are the.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Words of revolutionary transgender activists Elder community leader and icon
Miss Major, Grip and Gracie. Miss Major was part of
the Stonewall Riots, but she was incarcerated shortly after and
was mistreated as an inmate during her time at the
Attica State Prison. She's been fighting against the prison industrial
complex ever since, denouncing its violence, especially against trans incarcerated people.
(23:49):
MSS Major will long stand as an icon to the
LGBTQ community, not only for her fight that night during Stonewall,
but her continued fight in the rights for LGBTQ people.
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership
(24:11):
with BET's Case Studios. I'm Georgiam Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are Myself and Tweaky
Puchi Guar Song with Adam Pinks and Brick Cats for
Best Case Studios. The theme song was written and composed
by coole Vas, Bambianna and Myself. Original music by Cole Vas.
(24:33):
This episode was edited and scored.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
By Max Michael Miller.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following
Rape Fighting Words, Wherever you get your Podcast
The one thing that I will tell people, and I
tell people all the time.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
You want a white supremacist and a black panther party
person to get along say something about gay folks.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
That's Hoped is a groundbreaking activist, author, and speaker. She's
been blazing trails as a black trans woman fighting for justice.
Today you'll hear Hope share her powerful journey from growing
up in Miami to leading national movements, to making her
new documentary Not Your Average Girl, and offer bold, unapologetic
insight on what real allyship and empowerment look like.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I use that moment to do what I've always done,
which is to remind you that not only am I
here to talk about deliberation of all black folks, not
just trans people, not just LGBTQ plus people, but I'm
also here to remind you that you are never gonna
win until you accept that a part of me winning
means that I have to be crossing the fitness line with.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
You, singing in them heavy handed to the world. Take
a super branding and you spoke your guy you know
what the plan is, or became a Latin you know
when to seem to stand me.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
My name is George M. Johnson.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number
one most challenged.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Book in the United States. This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
A show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and who refuse to be silenced.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Today's guest Hope Giselle.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Hello everyone, I want to welcome you all to another
episode of Fighting Words. I am here today with someone
who does not mince her words at all. She is fierce,
she is loyal, she is not to be played with.
Hope Giselle, how are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
I'm so good. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
We start to show off the same way I think
our bios precede us. People don't really know who we
are as people. I just want you to let everyone
want to know who is Hope Giselle.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Hope Jazelle is an author, advocate, activist, DEI specialist, and
just all around that bage.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You know.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I feel like I don't give myself enough credit, but
I've been doing a lot of this work since my
inventory days of being a college student at Alabama State University.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
What folks don't know. It's that I'm an Abbot protura community.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I really enjoy art museums and all of those things,
and I.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Think that I'm a really well rounded individual.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Outside of the things that folks like to talk about
when I hear my name.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
We have our starts in community very early, and people
don't understand that.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
People just see where we are today.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
With me, it's like, oh, yeah, you wrote the book,
and well, yes, and there was a lot of shit
that came before I ever got to a place of
writing a book. So I'm glad that you brought up
college because that was where a lot of your groundwork
of was being done. You went to Alabama State University
historically back college, you started the school's first group for
(03:00):
LGBTQ students, and you were they're going to use the
term openly trands when I was like, well, you were
yourself and you were very open about who you were.
So what was your experience like on the campus.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I got the best education that I think that an
AHBC you could have given me. I had the worst
social experience that I think that a college could have
given me.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Wow, I've always loved school.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
I've always loved education and learning things and discourse, whether
that be social or educational. I love the campus environment,
but when you are the openly queer kid on a
campus full of other queer kids, because there were a
lot of us, right, yeah, yeah, they all decided to assimilate.
They wanted to plage more than they wanted to be queer.
(03:43):
They wanted to play more than they wanted to be queer.
Be on the drum line, one of them wanted to
be queer. Yeah, And so they all learned to navigate
spaces differently than me, which made me even more of
a target because them people would compare me and say, well,
why don't you just do what some one something doing?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Right? Why you got to word it, but be sure.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I decided very early on that if I was going
to have a good time, that I needed to make it.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
And that's the reason why Amplified was started.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I created an Aide benefit concert which was essentially just me,
my fantasy, and it was called the Beyonce Experience, and
it was just.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Me and drag what's two hours.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
It was a beautiful thing because it taught me how
to organize very early. You have to speak up for
myself very early to do the research that was necessary,
being able to talk to administration and sit there and say, well,
Title nine.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Said, you know, and you can't you know, like all
of these different things.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
And so my college experience was beautiful in the regard
to what I do now because it taught me how
to do what I do now on a very micro scale.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, you are known as the first transperson from Alabama
State University to graduate with your master's degree and a
master's degree. And since since that time do you know
of any other Absolutely the fact that you broke that door.
What does that experience feel like? Because visibility and representation,
I would say as a start, but to know that
you were a starting point for someone else.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
So the person and I give him Miss Flowers all
the time.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
His name is Caleb Gullies, the Caribbean man from Saint Croix.
He also happens to be the only other trans student
that was there at the time, and Kayla came from Saint.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Froid with a vision.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Unlike me being from Miami here, Caleb didn't have a
possibility model up with a trans man could be look
like you know what that was supposed to be. He
came from Saint Croix to his degree into transition.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
If you were not helping him do either one of
those things, you were in the way.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Caleb found out about me, and we became very quick friends,
and he was a year behind me. And so right
after I graduated, Caleb graduated. And then there have been
that I know of at least four young trans women
who have graduated after and they all hit me up
every single hong.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
I love that I've.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Never gotten a chance to meet them in person, but
they all will find a way to like reach out
to me via DM or some like that, and they
will all say thanks to you. That makes me feel
so good that my legacy is like to know that
these young girls they fear about the impact that full
time folks will tell them like, you are lucky that
girl had to jump through hoops for y'all, And all
of those young ladies are very empathetic to that and
(06:16):
also very thankful.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
I always say, when we are doing things that are
making history, no one's thinking about making history. Even when
All Boys on Blue hit the York Times of a
seller list and when it hit number one as the
most bamed book in the country, that was never a goal.
It was like a title that got placed upon something
and then you find out afterwards that you've done something
historic and people are like, well, what were you thinking
(06:47):
about when you hit the list? I actually missed the
phone call because I was making lunch, like I was.
I was literally making lunch and my phone was on vibrate.
So when the publisher even called me to say that
we finally had hit the list, it was this big
deal and all of that, I was like, I really
wasn't thinking about it because I was making lunch. I
just happened to pick my phone up and see that
I had four missed calls from like my publisher and
(07:08):
from friends and stuff who had already seen it happen.
These things that we do in the midst of doing them,
we don't know that we're always doing this thing that
we have to say, I'm supposed to do this thing.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
You know.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Why I write for young adults and what they need
to hear more of is like, you can have a
voice even if you're seventeen, eighteen nineteen, Like that's where
you actually that's where you start to try and find
your voice. What gave you that confidence from that age?
What was that thing in you that made you start
to try and find your voice.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
At that time, do you know where I found my voice?
That wasn't in college? I remember I was about seven
years old.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
I watched an episode of Moesha believe it or not,
the episode about the talent shows. I remember, you know,
wanted to do this college show. She had this idea.
She goes to the school. They allowed them to do
the talent show. It was great, and I remember stating
there and I was like, do a talent show. And
thankfully my principal, Doctor Morley god rests.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
So he actually just passed away this year.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
But Dr Martley had always made his office an open
door policy, and even as that been like, I just
had this tenacity about me and so I saw that
so and I could not go I could barely go
to sleep good because I was like, I'm going to
talk to DODR. Morley about this in the morning. And
I'm Martinton was office in the morning, you know, And
sure enough.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
I'm sitting in the chair and I was like, DODR. Marley,
we need a talent show.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
He was the first person that gave me the astronomy
as a chipe, I feel.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Like my voice mattered, and he was like think that
that's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
He told me that the talent show would be in
my hand and that he would make sure that the
musical director and some other folks were doing the adulting stuff.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
But he was like, this is up to you.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
You got to do the auditions, you have to do
the so and so, you have to do it all,
and you still have to get good grades. And I
worked my button offs, and I worked with the musical director,
and I worked with the choir teacher, and we ended
up getting this talent show up. And they named the
talent show after me as my dead name. So I
won't say it, but we had that talent show up
until the school closed, which was three years ago.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Finding my voice meant that, like, I find the power
and being able to ask for the things that people
told me that I wouldn't be able to get.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
When we come back, Hope shares the moment that made
her realize just how hard vulnerability can be.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And now back to my conversation with Hope.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Giselle, you're constantly finding new ways to amplify your message
in a very poignant way, a very precise way, a
very digestible way for people to un stand. You are
very great at calling out and also calling in.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
And you're a writer.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
You wrote your first book, was it in twenty eighteen,
Becoming Hope? Removing the Disguise, a memoir that chronicled your
life and self discovery. I know what it's like for me,
even five years later, and when people come up to
me and tell me certain things in the book that
triggered them, or there is a trauma dumping that happens
at times when I meet people, And I'm getting better
(10:27):
at being braced for it, because some people's connection to
me is through some of the lighter parts of the book,
but some people's connection to my stories through some of
the darker parts of the book that they feel they
need to just say to me. And I have learned
to hold it and not keep it. What was that
experience like being so vulnerable?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
I don't think that it hit me until those heavier parts,
right like when I talked people through the weekend that
my father died and being in a limo and like
getting ready to go into this party with my brand
and hearing the boys mail from my uncle feeling upset
because why would you leave a voicemail? And then also
said my dad just died. We just got out of
(11:06):
this limousine. It's my girl's birthday, and like, I can't
ruin this for everybody. And so going back to that moment,
I wish I would have went home. I had a
beautiful night, but like part of me as an adult,
which is that I would have went home. And then
I think, like when I talk about within the first chapter,
the first time that I was sexually assaulted by my bully,
(11:28):
you know, and realizing in real time that like, hey,
this was going to be what it was, that men
like this were going to be able to do things
like he had done to me, and even though he
was a part of the act, he would walk away
and I would always be the person that was left
to be insulted, be be rated, be vilified for a
moment that sat with me really, really toughly. But I
(11:49):
think I'm always vulnerable. I really lived my life in
this space up. You can't use it against me if
I told you, I have things that I keep for myself.
The thing that I think that people might be able
to find out through a little bit of research on
their own are all things that I'm willing to share
because why not You're not going to make me feel
bad about this ten years from now, because I told
you it's just about being intentionally vulnerable in a way
(12:10):
that I'm going to have to live with.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
And I knew that when I was writing it.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
For me, it was like, if I keep something out
of the book that could have saved someone or help someone,
I'm going to feel much worse about that. That vulnerability,
in many ways has led you to be even more
vulnerable with the trailer for your documentary, Can you please
tell us about this documentary?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Not Your Average Girl has been a lifelong project that
I didn't realize was a project until it actually came
to fruition, right. I've always been a documentarian. I've always
been a person that's wanted to tell my story. I've
always been a person that's been very didactic in the
way that I speak of myself personally, because I know
that my story is, in and of itself, a teachable moment.
No matter what facet of life you hang on to,
(12:53):
whether you're a trans person, it's this person, a black person,
a woman, a boy, a boy who wants to be
a girl, a girl who's trying to be whatever it
is is. I think that there's something that you can
learn from watching me navigate the world. The vulnerability of
not your average girl came from the space of being
inspired Beyonce. Just all knows Carter is one of the
greatest storytellers of our time. Ms Mamas knows how to
(13:15):
put together some cinematic beauty. And when she did life
This but a Dream, I remember loving because it felt
so real. It felt like she's sitting in the house
on the couch with the braids and the bun.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
And you know, while there were moments of the Beyonce.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
That we know, we got to see this version of
part that we typically get it like, we don't get
to see the one with the tights and no socks,
walking around the house with the headmand, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
And when I.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Started to really record my life, they started to hold
on some pieces and moments. People are gonna see just
this version of me that I curate daily because that's
the version that I want y'all to see. But the
part that people don't see, in the part that people
don't understand, and the things that people tell me to do,
like lean into myself and take a break and rest.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Y'all gotta understand why I can't. Yeah, I have to.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Understand why when I'm tired, and when you think I
have all of this space and you haven't seen me
for a while, so you think that I'm resting in
even when I'm out of the country, you think it's
a vacation.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
It's never really a vacation. I'm always working, I'm always
doing it.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
I'm always there's always a fire that I'm putting out
behind the scenes. There's always these things and these people
in these parts of the story that I don't tell
in order to save people. And I just got tired
of it because to your point, there's a part of
my story that I'm leaving out that can help somebody.
There's a part of me that wants people to like,
walk with me through this, walk with me through what
(14:35):
it means to have one of the best years of
your life and one of the worst health news is
that I can possibly have in my life right now.
You know, life is great, but I'm in the hospital
every other day. Life is amazing, but I'm taking radiation pills.
Life is beautiful, but I'm sitting in this chemotherapy chair
and I forgot to show up. People don't understand that
I didn't cut my locks because oh hope, it's just
(14:56):
like a wig and like a switch up.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I cut my locks because they fell out. Yeah, my weddings,
you know, because my key always doing what it was
supposed to do. But that wasn't the plan. That wasn't
what I wanted to look like on my wedding day.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
But the show goes on, and right after that there's
a march, and after the march there's the thing, and
after the thing, there's another thing, and it's plain another play,
another club next up.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
I think that's so eloquently put because I feel the
same way in many aspects. You try to space your
life out, but you just don't know when things are
going to hit, and when they do it, it's like, damn,
I still got to show up. And that's what you
continue to do. So you share what you share for
people to see. I find a lot of people put
personas to the world and then are disappointed when they
(15:38):
meet you and it doesn't match the persona they have
built up of you near head because of what you shared.
How do you make sure that your social media stays
true to you and that you don't become a persona
of you, the.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Persona of Hope, Zoe and Hope. You know they they
live at the same and bract time. And I think
that that's the reason why I'm able to navigate some
so well, because.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
They're not for right.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah, Hope, Gizzelle, she just knows how to coaches, which
a little bit right. Hope just don't knows somebody to
like turn it on and knows when the moment requires
a certain version or a certain throne and inflection or
whatever the case may be. And Hope just don't give
a fuck how we come up. It's how we come out,
you know. And I think that does Heelle is trying
to get money she needs with Egg, she has a
(16:23):
common goal. There's a common denominator. And then there's Hope,
who was just passionate about the work. And Hope Jazelle
can't exist if Hope is not there, because if Pope
don't care, then Hope Dezel can't make the money. I
can say that like I am upset and I'm sad,
and I can cry and move my eyes out because
Kamala didn't win. And I can also be the person
that comes back the next day and say, here's the
(16:44):
list of things that we need to do to ensure
that all these other people win in the primaries. And
then I can get on my lap that night and
say and also suck all of that because these Democrats
ain't doing what they want to be late make it easier. Right,
I have an audience that is able and capable of
receiving look bad. Yes, and they have to be able
to choose. Right. All I do is I give them
(17:04):
the option to choose. You join my Patreon, you're gonna
get hope. If you only follow me on socials, you're
gonna get Hope to zell most of this line every
now and then you'll be gifted with the whole video. Right. Yes,
I think I do a really great job by just
reminding myself that the audience is not slow and give
them credit for being able to retain multiple types of
(17:25):
information at one time.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
When we come back, Hope reflex on being the first
black trans woman to speak at the March on Washington.
(18:02):
And now back to my conversation with Hope, Jozelle, and
so you are in a category that I like to
call like black firsts. You were the first transgender woman
to deliver a keynote speech at NASA making an impact
in diversity, equity and inclusion, which you work on.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
But I think even bigger than that.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Speaking at the sixtieth anniversary of the March on Washington,
and for those who don't know, the March on Washington
didn't even allow black women, SiZ black women to speak,
including Miss Dorothy Hyde, who was one of the main
architects of that march, and they would not allow her
to speak. Only men spoke that day sixty years later,
(18:42):
to be speaking on a commemoration of that huge moment
for civil rights and also knowing that you're breaking barrier
of a place that didn't even allow black women to speak,
what was that moment like as a culminating moment, and
what did it feel like.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I think that the community would like to have us
believe that all black people are just happy for all
black people. But even in that phase, folks recognize that
I was there as that trans person, and all of
a sudden, me and my husband hearing people whisper about
like y'all gonna let him speak, you know, like all
the things, and it's just like fire to resident was
(19:21):
also an architect of this march without an openly black
gay man like y'all wouldn't even have this to commemorate
sixty years later, right, And so for me, it was.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
The biggest fuck you. Yeah, And I say that.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
With all the love in my heart, like it was
the biggest fuck you to bigotry, the biggest fuck you
to racism, the biggest fuck you to sexism and misogyny
and patriarchy and all of the things that I think
that we're still having to deal with and put up.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
With you now, even intercommunally.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, as a black trans woman having people sit there
and roll their eyes and stop their feet and I'm
talking about black liberation because they don't like the messenger.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
You know like that, that to me was upsetting but
not surprising it right.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I feel like I used that.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Moment to do what I've always done, which is to
remind you that not only am I here to talk
about the liliteration of all black folks, not just trans people,
not just LGBTQA plus people, but I'm also here to
remind you that you are never gonna win until you
accept that a part of me winning means that I
have to be crossing the finish line with you can
see you to hand racism and white supremacy the win
(20:28):
because the same way that we have these conversations amongst
each other, y'all all think that these folks that don't
like y'all don't look back and see you want to
crack that armor, go mess with their gay people. You
want to crack that armor, Go mess with their trans people,
because they don't care about that. The one thing that
I will tell people, and I tell people all the time,
you want a white supremacist and a black Panther party
person to get along, say something about gay folks. The
(20:49):
only difference to is is that after that conversation, that
white supremacist, that KKK member is still going to look
to his people and say, I don't care if you trans?
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Do you not like nigger? So what is next for
Hope to sell?
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I am making a move a cross country going to
LA and I'm really really excited about it. There's a
couple of products that I'm working on with the Pop
Culture Collab or Becoming America, so I'm working with them
as well as Array Studios, and so there's a couple
of other things, and I'm also working for.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Just some other stuff that I can't say. So I
was like I made it.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
But the things that I can say is that I
am about to do a major move which I'm really
excited about to be going back to the West Coast.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I lived there for a little while.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I'm just excited to go back there and see what
new route sacking plant and what new connections I can make.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's super important. I've moved
several times myself. It's always important to times change the
areas we live in as we're growing and as we're
learning who we are. The final thing we always like
when people live with us with some words that we
can live by. My favorite quote is, of course Tony
Morrison's quote is the book you want to read and
(22:14):
hasn't been written yet, then you must write it. What
are some words that you are currently living by? Absolutely,
run your race. Run your race.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
There's going to be times where there are going to
be folks that are going to try to convince you
that their way is better. But what I've learned and
being able to navigate this life as an adult, is
that when you run the race that is built for you,
you can't lose. It doesn't matter how long it takes
you to get to that finish line. But running the
race that was built for you is going to keep
you in a position that you can always succeed in,
(22:41):
even if you have to read calibrate the goalpost a
couple of times you can't feel because it's yours. You
were meant to cross the finish line. How long's it
takes you to get there, that's a whole different story.
But run your race, Run yours.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Beautiful Hope.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
I really really want to thank you for coming to
the show today. You are are just one of the
most radical leaders that we have. Please continue to share
your voice and continue to inspire us all to share
our own voices.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Oh, thank you so much for having me. It was
really ray.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I always enjoy our time together, So thank you so
much for having me.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
If it ain't right, fucking fix it, whatever it takes.
These are the.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Words of revolutionary transgender activists Elder community leader and icon
Miss Major, Grip and Gracie. Miss Major was part of
the Stonewall Riots, but she was incarcerated shortly after and
was mistreated as an inmate during her time at the
Attica State Prison. She's been fighting against the prison industrial
complex ever since, denouncing its violence, especially against trans incarcerated people.
(23:49):
MSS Major will long stand as an icon to the
LGBTQ community, not only for her fight that night during Stonewall,
but her continued fight in the rights for LGBTQ people.
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership
(24:11):
with BET's Case Studios. I'm Georgiam Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are Myself and Tweaky
Puchi Guar Song with Adam Pinks and Brick Cats for
Best Case Studios. The theme song was written and composed
by coole Vas, Bambianna and Myself. Original music by Cole Vas.
(24:33):
This episode was edited and scored.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
By Max Michael Miller.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following
Rape Fighting Words, Wherever you get your Podcast
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