May 20, 2025 • 32 mins
George is joined by artist, filmmaker and author Tourmaline to celebrate the release of her new book, "Marsha: The Joy and Defiance of Marsha P. Johnson", the first definitive biography of the revolutionary activist who played a central role during the the Stonewall Riots.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
For decades, I've written about an organized around historical eratio right.
It's a very real thing.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Tormaline is an award winning artist, filmmaker, writer, and activists
whose work is dedicated to black trans joy and freedom.
As someone who has researched the LGBTQ history for a
long time, Tormaline has read a lot of books about
the Stonewall Riots in nineteen sixty nine, which became a
turning point for the gay rights movement in America. But
(00:29):
there is one person who is barely mentioned in those accounts.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
David Carter's book about Stonewall. He writes in the very
small fine print footnotes about how Marcia was probably, if
not the first, among the very first on the first
night to resist.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Marcia is Marsha P.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Johnson, a trans revolutionary activist. Tourmaline is the first to
write a definitive biography about her life, called Marcia The
Joy in Defiance of Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Johnson.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
But one of the reasons why white gays didn't credit
her with that was because they were afraid of black
trans women who had mental health challenges and was disabled
being the face of the quote unquote gay rights movement.
They were scared, so they discredited her. And so people's
choices about discrediting our lives and our actions really matter, right,
(01:22):
I'm and have like very material effects on our lives.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Singing in the heavy handy so that the world take
a sup of brandy and spoken. Guy, you know what
the plan is? Overcame a Latinino. One does understand me.
My name is George M.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number
one most challenged.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Book in the United States. This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
A show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and who refused.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
To be silent.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Today's guest is Tormaline. Tormaline, how are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I'm great.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
I'm so happy to be here with you.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yes, yes, yes, I would say we could just read
the bio. But anytime I have my bio rid, it's
like I'm sitting at stage for like two three and
it's just like like Macusop, like right, So I always
write my guests to introduce like who they are.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Who is Tormaline? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
So I am a writer, an artist. I came out
of community organizing, working around issues of healthcare, welfare, housing,
and police in prison violence, and then I started creating
film work in my community, and then I don't know,
it just really expanded into something where I was like,
(02:54):
this is really what I feel called to do. And
then through that I started writing and archiving and sharing
and then ultimately writing One day in June and Marcia
The Joint Defiance of Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Johnson.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, yes, we are definitely going to talk about the
new book, But I want to actually know when did
you first like hear or learn about Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Johnson?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Because I know for me, it's like you grow up,
you're in school, it's like Malcolm X, Martin, Luther King, Harriet's,
It's the journalis Troove, Angela Davis, the usuals, right, and
then it's like through greater understanding of self truth in
your own community, you start to learn about the people
who actually paved your way and far for your rights.
(03:40):
And so I don't think I learned about Marshall probably
till my twenties. You know, when did you first hear
or learn about Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Johnson?
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, so it was two thousand and five, I was
living in New York City. I was in my early twenties,
so twenty years ago, and I was hanging out on
the Christopher Street Pier, which has been a long time
like place of sanctuary and refuge for those of us
who are queer, trans to not conforming people of color.
And people just started to talk about Marcia, and so
(04:09):
I couldn't google her, she wasn't on the Internet, but
I started to become friends with her friends and in
those early moments, starting to interview her friends and hitting
up some archives and feeling the thrill and the pleasure
of learning about who Marcia was.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, and it's so fascinating how we walk amongst people
who walked amongst them.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yes, and I think about that.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So, what were some of the things that you learned,
like in talking to them, the people who knew Marsha.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Yeah, it's so powerful.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So a dear friend of mine, Randy Ricker, lived with
Marcia for over a decade, and it's those small kind
of intimate moments, right, It's like Marcia taking care of
these younger generation of queer transgender form people who were
coming to New York to find life and safety and
(05:05):
care and then I've gotten to know her family from Elizabeth,
New Jersey, her birth family, so yeah, okay, yeah, okay, exactly.
I've known her nephew Al for about fifteen years now.
And he was a DJ, right and so he was
(05:26):
in a club and he was going through his records
and then all of a sudden he found, you know,
he picked up Earth Wind and Fire and he picks
it up and then he's looking at it and he's like,
wait a second, and then it's Marcia on the cover
of the Earth Wind and Fire album. And he was
coming from Jersey into New York to DJ and it
(05:46):
really fit his understanding of Marcia as someone who lit
the spark for him but also for you know, the world,
and starting to see Marcia in this larger than life way.
Or my friend Augusta Machado, a little older than Marcia,
still performing and living in New York, and just talked
about how Marcia would take Augusto to Bloomingdale's or the
(06:11):
Macy's or the Sacks, the makeup department store counters and
they would get their makeup done for free. And this
was the late sixties, early seventies and part of the
importance of that was like one Marcia was, you know,
mentoring even people who were her age or older. Right,
Marsha was mentoring and mothering and helping people remember like,
(06:33):
we deserve these things too, right, We deserve to be
able to go and get our makeup done just like
other people are going to get our makeup done. And
then kind of realizing the younger folks are the people
who were her age but still being mothered and mentored.
Realizing the power of showing up as all of who
you are, and Augusto talks about that so powerfully, like
(06:54):
Marcia found these everyday moments to help people tune to
their most powerful versions, whether it was the makeup department
store or getting on the Staten Island ferry and going
for a quote unquote cruise just to like take away
the day's stress. Are al her nephew talking about Marshall
was my babysitter. And also like Marshall was on the
(07:15):
cover Earth, Wind and Fire, you can be at home
and larger than life, so you know it ISRAELI been beautiful.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah, and I love when you speak to the humanization
of the icon and yeah, you know once.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Marcia is now known as leader of one of the
leaders of.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
The Stonewall riots and throwing the first brick and right,
and these things happened you almost miss out on.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
But who were they as a person?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
And I think about your film, which was Happy Birthday Marshall.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah, And the.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Fact is, like before the riots, they were people who
were living their lives.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
They could have exactly that day.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
They could have had a good day, they could have
had a bad, bad a date before they get to
the you know what I.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Mean, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
We have lynch pinned like their starting point as day
night one of the whyat's, and your film takes us
before that, right, And so could you just speak a
little bit about like the choice in make sure we
understood that they were people before they were given these
titles as the leaders of Stonewall.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, I think that's just so important, Right, It's like,
don't we get to feel the fullness of our person
ness beyond just that one heroic act. But there's a
way that heroism or the worst day or the best
day can really make the fullness of who you are
so small, right, Like it really condenses the scope and
(08:48):
the range of who you are. And to me, that
was really important choice to be like this was an
act of someone who was a fully alive person and
continue to be even more like, continue to grow and
evolve and learn new things and let dust to dust
and pixelate old things. And to me, Sadi Hartman writes
(09:09):
about how sometimes those like larger than life moments actually
diminished our understanding of the full version of a person.
And to me, it was really important to create work
that showed the range. Marcia is a Jersey girl and
also Marsha was in Times Square before the West Village
in Stonewall. Marsha was hanging out and building community in
(09:30):
Times Square. Marshall also went to La And you know,
to me, that is really an important part of it all.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, And I totally understand that, right, how the magnitude
of one moment can outweigh the entirety of your life. Yes,
And you know, a few weeks ago, my book A
Bison Blue was the name number one now or and
I found myself grieving, But I didn't know that I
(10:07):
was grieving at first, Like the first two or three days,
I just felt a shift had happened, where like at
first I was like, oh, maybe it's a little anxiety,
But I honestly really tapped into self and was like,
I think I'm mourning the loss of.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Agency over what I now become.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Because this title will always stay with me, and so
it's like I have to now become a new person,
or I'm to them, I'm perceived as a new person
to me. I still moved away. I moved, but I
have just to the perception of what it means to
go from two to one. And that is that something
that in your you know, like your understanding of Marcia.
(10:47):
Does she ever feel the weight of that shift, like
definite free Stonewall post stone Wall, still continuing to do
her activism, but now being perceived much differently.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Absolutely, if I dedicated chapter of the book to Stonewall
and talk about Stonewall in a lot of different ways.
I first talked about just like how it went down, right,
the raid at one twenty am, how they targeted transgender
not conforming people the NYPD in order to demonstrate evidence
of the bar's illegality. Right, so it was really targeting
(11:19):
people who were transgressing gender norms. The NYPD officer talked
at length about that, you know, And then I wrote
about all the people who saw Marcia there actively participating
in the early moments of the riots, and not just Marcia,
but Storm May and you know, people who were transvasculine
or stone butch right, people who were transgressing gender in
(11:43):
a lot of different ways. And then I talk about
how Marcia herself, on many different occasions remember the exact
song that was playing in the back room bar.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Of the Stone Wall.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
So Stonewall was split up into a main bar and
a backroom bar, as we can imagine like people who
were John Knock conforming, transvestites, trans people of color women,
they were largely confined to the back room bar, but
there was a jukebox and there was a sense of
also like freedom and relief and being like held in
(12:16):
that space on the dance floor. And Marshall could remember
Marvin Gay heard it through the grapevine. Consistently she would say,
hurd it through the grapevine, like that's what was playing
in the back room when the police busted in. And
then years later, during the emergent HIV AIDS crisis, she
started to talk about how she wasn't at Stonewall, and
(12:37):
then also how Stonewall happened in August on her birthday.
This is like in nineteen eighty nine. In nineteen eighty
eight she started to have a different recollection of Stonewall
and to me that, you know, like I was writing
the chapter wanting to really reconcile these things, like how
can memory shift because of trauma?
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Right?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
How can memory shift when you are made the singular
person and pulled out of your community, right as like
the sole leader, and yet your day to day conditions
maybe haven't changed, right, And so I write about my
dear friendly alacsh me as a disability justice writer, and
I write a lot about referencing how we elect me
(13:19):
understands Stonewall not as a sane event, you know, like
writing against the ableism of it all and the neuroonormativity
of it all, like and how trauma really shapes how
we remember things. And so Marcia really was shaped by
the conditions and the trauma, and that shaped how she
on a different day would recall the events. And also
(13:39):
because the conditions of her life hadn't shifted that much
right years later, it made so much sense that she
would remember it differently.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
That is very interesting because it's as a memoir ast myself.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
There are times where I will.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Call family to help me recall, yes, because there are
times where I remember it one way and yeah, I'll
talk to my cousins and they're like, no, but remember
this thing happened and then this and I'm like, oh
my god.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Yeah, but it's like, why did I block that, right thing? Right?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Something made me forget? And was that kind of what
you went into when you were doing the film.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, you know it's called Happy Birthday Marcia because Marcia
remembered Stonewall as happening on her birthday. Right. And also
in the film, Marcia had like a really privileged relationship
with the immaterial, meaning like she would speak to spirits
and saints and God immaterial presences that she felt just
(14:39):
as real as an embodied person, right, And that element
was also really important to include, right, Like she perceived
time differently, she perceived the presence of God differently and
had this really powerful connection with them. And so there's
these moments where she's with a group of friends and
only she can see.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Them, Right.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
There's kind of kaleidoscope effect that happens every time that
whether it's like saints or loved ones who have passed,
but she has this kind of relationship to and so
to me, yeah, we wanted to include all of that nuance.
It's called happy Birthday Marcia because Marcia talked about through
the memory through her trauma as like this huge event
(15:21):
happening on her birthday, which was she was a virgo,
you know, So I think, to me that nuance is
so important.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, because honestly, as you just were saying that, it
was like in a way it was her birthday, like
in a spiritual way, exactly.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
As you said it. That's exactly as you said it.
I was like, but that was exactly person to the world. Yes, yeah,
to the world stage.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
And now back to my conversation with author, artist and
filmmaker Tormaline Marcia. The Julian Defiance of Marsha P. Johnson
coming out in a twentieth five. Realistically it will probably
be the first definitive biography. How did you approach writing
the book and what told you I have to write
(16:37):
a book about this.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
It's interesting because my relationship with her has really changed
so much over that twenty years, where at first I
was interviewing her friends and loved ones, and then I
had this tumbler the spirit was, and so I would
write a little bit, and I would go into the
archives and kind of like scan and digitize things and
then put them on my blog. So Sylvia Rivera's each
(17:00):
y'all better quiet down, you know. I digitized that from
an archive and it wasn't on the Internet or just
pieces that really were speaking to me in that moment.
And then, you know, as an artist, I wanted to
like play around different mediums, just try to tune to
like what feels the most enlivening, and sometimes that was
collage or painting, and other times it was writing and
(17:21):
then writing the script and then filmmaking. And then after
the film, I was like, oh, you know, I feel
actually called at for not a public facing relationship with Marsha,
like Marshall on my altar, Marcia in conversation, and like
just a really spiritual, private one and that felt so
(17:41):
right and powerful. And then in twenty twenty something shifted
where I was like, it is a gift to me
to be able to have spent this much time with
someone so powerful, whether through her loved ones or in
an archive or on my altar or making a film,
(18:03):
and I actually really want to just like share that
gift share with the world the full version of someone
who has just profoundly shaped my life in an intimate way,
and also so many of our lives in ways that
we don't even know. It felt really important to move
with the kind of generosity of spirit that she had
and feel like I was given this gift, and now
(18:23):
I want to share this gift with the world. The
people can take it however they want. It's in a
spirit of generosity, but it feels very important.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yeah, and I love that the spirit of generosity.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
It has just felt like something so generous that I
got to be with over so many different versions of myself.
Back when I was organizing around stopping the jail in
the Bronx and this was two thousand and six, and
leaning on Marsha's organizing and then later organizing around healthcare,
and then learning from that and then with my art,
(18:56):
like learning from her. She was doing two performances a day,
you know, like she was was really acting, showing up
and showing out, and so the many different versions and
aspects of her that I got the benefit from, it
just felt really important to pay that back and to
really share with the world.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
When it comes to Marsha's death, Marsha's passing. Yeah, can
you just tell our listeners, like a little bit about
how you wanted to approach that, Yeah, in the book.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
So, I really wanted to approach it with just a
lot of care and a lot of agency for Marcia
and reflect her agency and her power as someone who
like she lived with a bullet in her back for
over a decade, right, So, she was hustling in New
York along the Hudson River and a cab driver picked
her up and had sex with her, paid her, and
(19:50):
then stole the money back and shot her. And she
lived with a bullet next to her spine. The doctors
couldn't take it out because it was too close to
a spine, and she lived with it for ten years,
and it affected every aspect of her life. And at
the number of times she survived moments like that, that
was one of many, many, many many, And so to me,
(20:13):
I really wanted to show whether a singular person was
the reason why, like she ended up in the Hudson River,
or structural abandonment of a place where queer and trans
people of color found life that was filled with holes
and potholes, you know, just like it was really deteriorating
in a structural level, or the trauma that she faced
(20:35):
that shaped her, like her reality wasn't always a shared reality,
you know. I really wanted to reflect that back, all
of the complexity of that, and then also with a
lot of care to her nephew and her sister Jeanie
and brother Bob. Both Genie and Bob have also gotten
to know they live in Elizabeth, and then her friends
(20:58):
Randy and Augusto. But to me, it felt really really
important to in a really complete way, show all of
what was going on, all of the factors involved, and
all of the theories about what happened, right, like, not
shy away from any single one of them, and really
convey that to the reader while also doing it with
(21:22):
care and compassion.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah. Yeah, because if I'm not mistaken, there's also a
theory around the NYPD exactly right.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I remember it was a very terrible article written. I
know you're going to remember it. I feel like the
article said who cares if Marsha through the first brick?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Or was yeah? What did I just remember it was?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Wrote it and I went this was back into twitter, y. Yeah,
when I used to carry online yeah, me battling these
particular people in community who were trying to remove this
particular title from.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Her, and so many people saw her, so you know,
like that's the other thing too.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, especially on the second night when she dropped the
bag of bricks exactly on top of a cop car exactly,
people reported that she is very very radically yeah and
did this. But also she was a black trans woman,
So what if Yes, she did deny it, of course,
because why would she admit to that where she is
(22:24):
now being looked at as the target of the New
Or Police department exactly exactly's actually use our brains, of course, exactly,
She's going to deny that.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, it's interesting too because like Miss Major, you know,
she's my chosen mother. I've known her for twenty years now,
and we met through my community organizing work. And she
has a beautiful book. Miss Major speaks and she talks
about how Storm May brought her to Stonewall, stor Mat
and Miss Major performing in the jewel Box Review and
(22:56):
so they had a really close friendship, like Storm May,
Miss Major, Marcia, We're all at Stonewall and David Carter's
book about Stonewall, he writes in the very small fine
print footnotes about how Marcia was probably, if not the first,
among the very first on the first night to resist.
But one of the reasons why white gays didn't credit
(23:19):
her with that was because they were afraid of black
trans women who had mental health challenges and was disabled
being the face of the quote unquote gay rights movement.
They were scared, so they discredited her. For decades, I've
written about an organized around historical erasure right as a
very real thing, and so people's choices about discrediting our
(23:42):
lives and our actions really matter, right like, have like
very material effects on our lives. And so to me,
that was part of why I made a film with
Miss Major called The Personal Things. It's a short just
a few minutes linings animated. We started it in Chicago
in her hotel room. This was maybe like twenty ten
(24:02):
or something like that, and I was just like interviewing
her and we were just hanging out, and she was
talking about back in the day, how the anti cross
dressing laws and how she would try different things like
dress up and then run to the front of the
house or run to the sidewalk and then run back in,
and how joyful it was to like, yes, it was scary,
(24:22):
but also it was really important for her to feel
these fleeting moments of power of who she really was.
And so she really mothered and mentored me in a
very profound way. And the book opens with her words.
It opens with my dear friend Egypt Blabasia and Miss
Major and Miss Major talking about how important it is
(24:42):
that remember our value right and that we were there
and we are here.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
I always say you have abolition as like as a
big word, but I would like you have macro abolition
and you have micro abolition. Yes, And the micro abolition
is the things that we do sometimes when no one
is looking. That's exactly a little bit more closer to
the freedom of being able to walk outside.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Now back to my conversation with Tourmaline.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
With World Pride coming up, there's no way to not
be an activist, I guess right, you know, yeah, And
you've worked on a lot of Pride campaigns.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
I've worked on a few Pride campaigns.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
What do you feel though, in terms of like pink capitalism,
especially this particular year when Pride started out as a
riot mm hmmm, and some of us forgot that. But
at twenty twenty five, this is a protest. As the
dollars have been taken away, as the programs are being
(26:12):
shut down, we still have to show up.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
And so what if parties are canceled? Will make my parties?
Will throw we throw house parties, we throw, we throw
a block parties. Pride is a protest, that's right. It's
important this year to really show up and show out.
How do you feel about this particular Pride year under
the current as circumstances that are the.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Use no exactly, I mean I think that you said it,
you summarized it perfectly. This year it is so important
that we are turning up the volume of who we
really are and supporting and taking care of each other
in a moment when our lives are in just a
profound way not to be erased and taken away. This
(27:00):
this year, we are showing up and showing out.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Yeah, this has to be might that has to be
that this is a defiant moment the year that's just
so many things that we have to like, really really
be in defiance about. And it's great to have your
book as a blueprint for the people who came before
us that have that did this, so that when we're
reading about them, we know, oh, this has been done,
(27:28):
and these are the tools.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
The possibility exactly and exactly the tools of how to
how to do it again?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yes, absolutely, so everybody then be ready because we got
to do it again. We always like to close out
the show with two little things. I used to have
a column called George is Tired, and I just would
(27:57):
be like, what am I tired of this week?
Speaker 3 (28:00):
What am I tired of this week? Oh? God? What good?
I mean, so many things to be tired of.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
But yeah, the main thing I am tired of is
though this young lady lying from the White House podium
every day, I believe her name is Carolyn lived it
is actually like dumbfounding to think that we're that dumb.
I have lived through enough presidents and enough White House
Press secretaries to know that they do the spin right.
(28:27):
They spin things. If you get asked the red cussry,
you spin a little, you spend a lot. This lady
don't even spin. This lady just lied, and they like
it's like it's like, wait, she's not even trying to
spend this. It's just not ever tried well no, because
we're in the writer thorit. It's like, well, no, like
(28:49):
we can all read the Supreme Court rule. We just
read it like two hours ago, y'all said, y'all made
a mistake, So how do you come up here? And
just a lot like okay, and we're going to call
that press Like I am just so tired because I'm like, damn,
(29:10):
at least be good at your job, right exactly. But
I also think this is now the time for journalism
to make its rise. But that's exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Is there anything that you are tired of this week? Okay?
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Honestly, I'm kind of tired of the cold. I think
a lot of people are going to turn it up
this summer, going back to the back outside summer exactly.
And I think that you can only push people down
so far before.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
That's what happened Stonewall before.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
It's just like people feel so powerless though that we
need to reach for rage and revenge as a form
of relief, right and uprising. And so to me, I'm
I'm just ready for that kind of warm, turn it
up summer where yes, it's hot inside in this hot outside.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
So we always like to close out the show with
if there's any mantra or any final words or words
that are like encouraging you to in your twenty twenty
five minus scorched the Earth, that is my mantra for
twenty twenty five. I'm like, I have to get back
in the streets again and I have to do more
because that's the only way to resist this is if
we get just as loud or loud as that's right.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
But is there any like words, phrases, quotes that you
live by?
Speaker 4 (30:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
So I opened the book with Miss Major's words and
they end with like we deserve it all. And I
just think it's so important for us to remember like
we deserve it all. We deserve to be that fully
alive version of ourselves, and that's that's the most powerful.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Place love it. Remember we deserve it all. That's right.
I want to thank you for coming on fighting word,
thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yes, this was so good, and I hope that the
people go out in by the book because it is
important that we know our history. Sankofa baby. We can't
know where we're going unless we know that's happened before.
So that's right, So thank you for helping lead us
on the path of knowing our past so that we
could push even harder for our future. Thank you for
having me, Yes, and I'll leave you with this quote
(31:19):
by Marshall herself. As long as gay people don't have
their rights all across America, there's no reason for celebration.
And to add to that quote from myself, make sure
those gay rights include all trans people. Fighting Words is
(31:47):
a production of iHeart Podcast in partnership with Best Case Studios.
I'm Georgia Johnson. This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley.
Is that can produce us are Myself and Twiggy pu
g Gar song with Them Pinks and brick.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Cats for Best Case Studios.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
The theme song was written and composed by kole Vas
Bambianna and Myself. Original music by Klevas. This episode was
edited and scored by Max Michael Miller. Our I heeart
team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rake, Fighting
Words Wherever you get your Podcasts
For decades, I've written about an organized around historical eratio right.
It's a very real thing.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Tormaline is an award winning artist, filmmaker, writer, and activists
whose work is dedicated to black trans joy and freedom.
As someone who has researched the LGBTQ history for a
long time, Tormaline has read a lot of books about
the Stonewall Riots in nineteen sixty nine, which became a
turning point for the gay rights movement in America. But
(00:29):
there is one person who is barely mentioned in those accounts.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
David Carter's book about Stonewall. He writes in the very
small fine print footnotes about how Marcia was probably, if
not the first, among the very first on the first
night to resist.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Marcia is Marsha P.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Johnson, a trans revolutionary activist. Tourmaline is the first to
write a definitive biography about her life, called Marcia The
Joy in Defiance of Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Johnson.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
But one of the reasons why white gays didn't credit
her with that was because they were afraid of black
trans women who had mental health challenges and was disabled
being the face of the quote unquote gay rights movement.
They were scared, so they discredited her. And so people's
choices about discrediting our lives and our actions really matter, right,
(01:22):
I'm and have like very material effects on our lives.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Singing in the heavy handy so that the world take
a sup of brandy and spoken. Guy, you know what
the plan is? Overcame a Latinino. One does understand me.
My name is George M.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number
one most challenged.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Book in the United States. This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
A show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and who refused.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
To be silent.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Today's guest is Tormaline. Tormaline, how are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I'm great.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
I'm so happy to be here with you.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yes, yes, yes, I would say we could just read
the bio. But anytime I have my bio rid, it's
like I'm sitting at stage for like two three and
it's just like like Macusop, like right, So I always
write my guests to introduce like who they are.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Who is Tormaline? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
So I am a writer, an artist. I came out
of community organizing, working around issues of healthcare, welfare, housing,
and police in prison violence, and then I started creating
film work in my community, and then I don't know,
it just really expanded into something where I was like,
(02:54):
this is really what I feel called to do. And
then through that I started writing and archiving and sharing
and then ultimately writing One day in June and Marcia
The Joint Defiance of Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Johnson.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, yes, we are definitely going to talk about the
new book, But I want to actually know when did
you first like hear or learn about Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Johnson?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Because I know for me, it's like you grow up,
you're in school, it's like Malcolm X, Martin, Luther King, Harriet's,
It's the journalis Troove, Angela Davis, the usuals, right, and
then it's like through greater understanding of self truth in
your own community, you start to learn about the people
who actually paved your way and far for your rights.
(03:40):
And so I don't think I learned about Marshall probably
till my twenties. You know, when did you first hear
or learn about Marsha P.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Johnson?
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, so it was two thousand and five, I was
living in New York City. I was in my early twenties,
so twenty years ago, and I was hanging out on
the Christopher Street Pier, which has been a long time
like place of sanctuary and refuge for those of us
who are queer, trans to not conforming people of color.
And people just started to talk about Marcia, and so
(04:09):
I couldn't google her, she wasn't on the Internet, but
I started to become friends with her friends and in
those early moments, starting to interview her friends and hitting
up some archives and feeling the thrill and the pleasure
of learning about who Marcia was.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, and it's so fascinating how we walk amongst people
who walked amongst them.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yes, and I think about that.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So, what were some of the things that you learned,
like in talking to them, the people who knew Marsha.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Yeah, it's so powerful.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So a dear friend of mine, Randy Ricker, lived with
Marcia for over a decade, and it's those small kind
of intimate moments, right, It's like Marcia taking care of
these younger generation of queer transgender form people who were
coming to New York to find life and safety and
(05:05):
care and then I've gotten to know her family from Elizabeth,
New Jersey, her birth family, so yeah, okay, yeah, okay, exactly.
I've known her nephew Al for about fifteen years now.
And he was a DJ, right and so he was
(05:26):
in a club and he was going through his records
and then all of a sudden he found, you know,
he picked up Earth Wind and Fire and he picks
it up and then he's looking at it and he's like,
wait a second, and then it's Marcia on the cover
of the Earth Wind and Fire album. And he was
coming from Jersey into New York to DJ and it
(05:46):
really fit his understanding of Marcia as someone who lit
the spark for him but also for you know, the world,
and starting to see Marcia in this larger than life way.
Or my friend Augusta Machado, a little older than Marcia,
still performing and living in New York, and just talked
about how Marcia would take Augusto to Bloomingdale's or the
(06:11):
Macy's or the Sacks, the makeup department store counters and
they would get their makeup done for free. And this
was the late sixties, early seventies and part of the
importance of that was like one Marcia was, you know,
mentoring even people who were her age or older. Right,
Marsha was mentoring and mothering and helping people remember like,
(06:33):
we deserve these things too, right, We deserve to be
able to go and get our makeup done just like
other people are going to get our makeup done. And
then kind of realizing the younger folks are the people
who were her age but still being mothered and mentored.
Realizing the power of showing up as all of who
you are, and Augusto talks about that so powerfully, like
(06:54):
Marcia found these everyday moments to help people tune to
their most powerful versions, whether it was the makeup department
store or getting on the Staten Island ferry and going
for a quote unquote cruise just to like take away
the day's stress. Are al her nephew talking about Marshall
was my babysitter. And also like Marshall was on the
(07:15):
cover Earth, Wind and Fire, you can be at home
and larger than life, so you know it ISRAELI been beautiful.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah, and I love when you speak to the humanization
of the icon and yeah, you know once.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Marcia is now known as leader of one of the
leaders of.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
The Stonewall riots and throwing the first brick and right,
and these things happened you almost miss out on.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
But who were they as a person?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
And I think about your film, which was Happy Birthday Marshall.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah, And the.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Fact is, like before the riots, they were people who
were living their lives.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
They could have exactly that day.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
They could have had a good day, they could have
had a bad, bad a date before they get to
the you know what I.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Mean, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
We have lynch pinned like their starting point as day
night one of the whyat's, and your film takes us
before that, right, And so could you just speak a
little bit about like the choice in make sure we
understood that they were people before they were given these
titles as the leaders of Stonewall.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, I think that's just so important, Right, It's like,
don't we get to feel the fullness of our person
ness beyond just that one heroic act. But there's a
way that heroism or the worst day or the best
day can really make the fullness of who you are
so small, right, Like it really condenses the scope and
(08:48):
the range of who you are. And to me, that
was really important choice to be like this was an
act of someone who was a fully alive person and
continue to be even more like, continue to grow and
evolve and learn new things and let dust to dust
and pixelate old things. And to me, Sadi Hartman writes
(09:09):
about how sometimes those like larger than life moments actually
diminished our understanding of the full version of a person.
And to me, it was really important to create work
that showed the range. Marcia is a Jersey girl and
also Marsha was in Times Square before the West Village
in Stonewall. Marsha was hanging out and building community in
(09:30):
Times Square. Marshall also went to La And you know,
to me, that is really an important part of it all.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, And I totally understand that, right, how the magnitude
of one moment can outweigh the entirety of your life. Yes,
And you know, a few weeks ago, my book A
Bison Blue was the name number one now or and
I found myself grieving, But I didn't know that I
(10:07):
was grieving at first, Like the first two or three days,
I just felt a shift had happened, where like at
first I was like, oh, maybe it's a little anxiety,
But I honestly really tapped into self and was like,
I think I'm mourning the loss of.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Agency over what I now become.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Because this title will always stay with me, and so
it's like I have to now become a new person,
or I'm to them, I'm perceived as a new person
to me. I still moved away. I moved, but I
have just to the perception of what it means to
go from two to one. And that is that something
that in your you know, like your understanding of Marcia.
(10:47):
Does she ever feel the weight of that shift, like
definite free Stonewall post stone Wall, still continuing to do
her activism, but now being perceived much differently.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Absolutely, if I dedicated chapter of the book to Stonewall
and talk about Stonewall in a lot of different ways.
I first talked about just like how it went down, right,
the raid at one twenty am, how they targeted transgender
not conforming people the NYPD in order to demonstrate evidence
of the bar's illegality. Right, so it was really targeting
(11:19):
people who were transgressing gender norms. The NYPD officer talked
at length about that, you know, And then I wrote
about all the people who saw Marcia there actively participating
in the early moments of the riots, and not just Marcia,
but Storm May and you know, people who were transvasculine
or stone butch right, people who were transgressing gender in
(11:43):
a lot of different ways. And then I talk about
how Marcia herself, on many different occasions remember the exact
song that was playing in the back room bar.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Of the Stone Wall.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
So Stonewall was split up into a main bar and
a backroom bar, as we can imagine like people who
were John Knock conforming, transvestites, trans people of color women,
they were largely confined to the back room bar, but
there was a jukebox and there was a sense of
also like freedom and relief and being like held in
(12:16):
that space on the dance floor. And Marshall could remember
Marvin Gay heard it through the grapevine. Consistently she would say,
hurd it through the grapevine, like that's what was playing
in the back room when the police busted in. And
then years later, during the emergent HIV AIDS crisis, she
started to talk about how she wasn't at Stonewall, and
(12:37):
then also how Stonewall happened in August on her birthday.
This is like in nineteen eighty nine. In nineteen eighty
eight she started to have a different recollection of Stonewall
and to me that, you know, like I was writing
the chapter wanting to really reconcile these things, like how
can memory shift because of trauma?
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Right?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
How can memory shift when you are made the singular
person and pulled out of your community, right as like
the sole leader, and yet your day to day conditions
maybe haven't changed, right, And so I write about my
dear friendly alacsh me as a disability justice writer, and
I write a lot about referencing how we elect me
(13:19):
understands Stonewall not as a sane event, you know, like
writing against the ableism of it all and the neuroonormativity
of it all, like and how trauma really shapes how
we remember things. And so Marcia really was shaped by
the conditions and the trauma, and that shaped how she
on a different day would recall the events. And also
(13:39):
because the conditions of her life hadn't shifted that much
right years later, it made so much sense that she
would remember it differently.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
That is very interesting because it's as a memoir ast myself.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
There are times where I will.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Call family to help me recall, yes, because there are
times where I remember it one way and yeah, I'll
talk to my cousins and they're like, no, but remember
this thing happened and then this and I'm like, oh
my god.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Yeah, but it's like, why did I block that, right thing? Right?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Something made me forget? And was that kind of what
you went into when you were doing the film.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, you know it's called Happy Birthday Marcia because Marcia
remembered Stonewall as happening on her birthday. Right. And also
in the film, Marcia had like a really privileged relationship
with the immaterial, meaning like she would speak to spirits
and saints and God immaterial presences that she felt just
(14:39):
as real as an embodied person, right, And that element
was also really important to include, right, Like she perceived
time differently, she perceived the presence of God differently and
had this really powerful connection with them. And so there's
these moments where she's with a group of friends and
only she can see.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Them, Right.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
There's kind of kaleidoscope effect that happens every time that
whether it's like saints or loved ones who have passed,
but she has this kind of relationship to and so
to me, yeah, we wanted to include all of that nuance.
It's called happy Birthday Marcia because Marcia talked about through
the memory through her trauma as like this huge event
(15:21):
happening on her birthday, which was she was a virgo,
you know, So I think, to me that nuance is
so important.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, because honestly, as you just were saying that, it
was like in a way it was her birthday, like
in a spiritual way, exactly.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
As you said it. That's exactly as you said it.
I was like, but that was exactly person to the world. Yes, yeah,
to the world stage.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
And now back to my conversation with author, artist and
filmmaker Tormaline Marcia. The Julian Defiance of Marsha P. Johnson
coming out in a twentieth five. Realistically it will probably
be the first definitive biography. How did you approach writing
the book and what told you I have to write
(16:37):
a book about this.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
It's interesting because my relationship with her has really changed
so much over that twenty years, where at first I
was interviewing her friends and loved ones, and then I
had this tumbler the spirit was, and so I would
write a little bit, and I would go into the
archives and kind of like scan and digitize things and
then put them on my blog. So Sylvia Rivera's each
(17:00):
y'all better quiet down, you know. I digitized that from
an archive and it wasn't on the Internet or just
pieces that really were speaking to me in that moment.
And then, you know, as an artist, I wanted to
like play around different mediums, just try to tune to
like what feels the most enlivening, and sometimes that was
collage or painting, and other times it was writing and
(17:21):
then writing the script and then filmmaking. And then after
the film, I was like, oh, you know, I feel
actually called at for not a public facing relationship with Marsha,
like Marshall on my altar, Marcia in conversation, and like
just a really spiritual, private one and that felt so
(17:41):
right and powerful. And then in twenty twenty something shifted
where I was like, it is a gift to me
to be able to have spent this much time with
someone so powerful, whether through her loved ones or in
an archive or on my altar or making a film,
(18:03):
and I actually really want to just like share that
gift share with the world the full version of someone
who has just profoundly shaped my life in an intimate way,
and also so many of our lives in ways that
we don't even know. It felt really important to move
with the kind of generosity of spirit that she had
and feel like I was given this gift, and now
(18:23):
I want to share this gift with the world. The
people can take it however they want. It's in a
spirit of generosity, but it feels very important.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yeah, and I love that the spirit of generosity.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
It has just felt like something so generous that I
got to be with over so many different versions of myself.
Back when I was organizing around stopping the jail in
the Bronx and this was two thousand and six, and
leaning on Marsha's organizing and then later organizing around healthcare,
and then learning from that and then with my art,
(18:56):
like learning from her. She was doing two performances a day,
you know, like she was was really acting, showing up
and showing out, and so the many different versions and
aspects of her that I got the benefit from, it
just felt really important to pay that back and to
really share with the world.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
When it comes to Marsha's death, Marsha's passing. Yeah, can
you just tell our listeners, like a little bit about
how you wanted to approach that, Yeah, in the book.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
So, I really wanted to approach it with just a
lot of care and a lot of agency for Marcia
and reflect her agency and her power as someone who
like she lived with a bullet in her back for
over a decade, right, So, she was hustling in New
York along the Hudson River and a cab driver picked
her up and had sex with her, paid her, and
(19:50):
then stole the money back and shot her. And she
lived with a bullet next to her spine. The doctors
couldn't take it out because it was too close to
a spine, and she lived with it for ten years,
and it affected every aspect of her life. And at
the number of times she survived moments like that, that
was one of many, many, many many, And so to me,
(20:13):
I really wanted to show whether a singular person was
the reason why, like she ended up in the Hudson River,
or structural abandonment of a place where queer and trans
people of color found life that was filled with holes
and potholes, you know, just like it was really deteriorating
in a structural level, or the trauma that she faced
(20:35):
that shaped her, like her reality wasn't always a shared reality,
you know. I really wanted to reflect that back, all
of the complexity of that, and then also with a
lot of care to her nephew and her sister Jeanie
and brother Bob. Both Genie and Bob have also gotten
to know they live in Elizabeth, and then her friends
(20:58):
Randy and Augusto. But to me, it felt really really
important to in a really complete way, show all of
what was going on, all of the factors involved, and
all of the theories about what happened, right, like, not
shy away from any single one of them, and really
convey that to the reader while also doing it with
(21:22):
care and compassion.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah. Yeah, because if I'm not mistaken, there's also a
theory around the NYPD exactly right.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I remember it was a very terrible article written. I
know you're going to remember it. I feel like the
article said who cares if Marsha through the first brick?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Or was yeah? What did I just remember it was?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Wrote it and I went this was back into twitter, y. Yeah,
when I used to carry online yeah, me battling these
particular people in community who were trying to remove this
particular title from.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Her, and so many people saw her, so you know,
like that's the other thing too.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, especially on the second night when she dropped the
bag of bricks exactly on top of a cop car exactly,
people reported that she is very very radically yeah and
did this. But also she was a black trans woman,
So what if Yes, she did deny it, of course,
because why would she admit to that where she is
(22:24):
now being looked at as the target of the New
Or Police department exactly exactly's actually use our brains, of course, exactly,
She's going to deny that.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, it's interesting too because like Miss Major, you know,
she's my chosen mother. I've known her for twenty years now,
and we met through my community organizing work. And she
has a beautiful book. Miss Major speaks and she talks
about how Storm May brought her to Stonewall, stor Mat
and Miss Major performing in the jewel Box Review and
(22:56):
so they had a really close friendship, like Storm May,
Miss Major, Marcia, We're all at Stonewall and David Carter's
book about Stonewall, he writes in the very small fine
print footnotes about how Marcia was probably, if not the first,
among the very first on the first night to resist.
But one of the reasons why white gays didn't credit
(23:19):
her with that was because they were afraid of black
trans women who had mental health challenges and was disabled
being the face of the quote unquote gay rights movement.
They were scared, so they discredited her. For decades, I've
written about an organized around historical erasure right as a
very real thing, and so people's choices about discrediting our
(23:42):
lives and our actions really matter, right like, have like
very material effects on our lives. And so to me,
that was part of why I made a film with
Miss Major called The Personal Things. It's a short just
a few minutes linings animated. We started it in Chicago
in her hotel room. This was maybe like twenty ten
(24:02):
or something like that, and I was just like interviewing
her and we were just hanging out, and she was
talking about back in the day, how the anti cross
dressing laws and how she would try different things like
dress up and then run to the front of the
house or run to the sidewalk and then run back in,
and how joyful it was to like, yes, it was scary,
(24:22):
but also it was really important for her to feel
these fleeting moments of power of who she really was.
And so she really mothered and mentored me in a
very profound way. And the book opens with her words.
It opens with my dear friend Egypt Blabasia and Miss
Major and Miss Major talking about how important it is
(24:42):
that remember our value right and that we were there
and we are here.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
I always say you have abolition as like as a
big word, but I would like you have macro abolition
and you have micro abolition. Yes, And the micro abolition
is the things that we do sometimes when no one
is looking. That's exactly a little bit more closer to
the freedom of being able to walk outside.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Now back to my conversation with Tourmaline.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
With World Pride coming up, there's no way to not
be an activist, I guess right, you know, yeah, And
you've worked on a lot of Pride campaigns.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
I've worked on a few Pride campaigns.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
What do you feel though, in terms of like pink capitalism,
especially this particular year when Pride started out as a
riot mm hmmm, and some of us forgot that. But
at twenty twenty five, this is a protest. As the
dollars have been taken away, as the programs are being
(26:12):
shut down, we still have to show up.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
And so what if parties are canceled? Will make my parties?
Will throw we throw house parties, we throw, we throw
a block parties. Pride is a protest, that's right. It's
important this year to really show up and show out.
How do you feel about this particular Pride year under
the current as circumstances that are the.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Use no exactly, I mean I think that you said it,
you summarized it perfectly. This year it is so important
that we are turning up the volume of who we
really are and supporting and taking care of each other
in a moment when our lives are in just a
profound way not to be erased and taken away. This
(27:00):
this year, we are showing up and showing out.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Yeah, this has to be might that has to be
that this is a defiant moment the year that's just
so many things that we have to like, really really
be in defiance about. And it's great to have your
book as a blueprint for the people who came before
us that have that did this, so that when we're
reading about them, we know, oh, this has been done,
(27:28):
and these are the tools.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
The possibility exactly and exactly the tools of how to
how to do it again?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yes, absolutely, so everybody then be ready because we got
to do it again. We always like to close out
the show with two little things. I used to have
a column called George is Tired, and I just would
(27:57):
be like, what am I tired of this week?
Speaker 3 (28:00):
What am I tired of this week? Oh? God? What good?
I mean, so many things to be tired of.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
But yeah, the main thing I am tired of is
though this young lady lying from the White House podium
every day, I believe her name is Carolyn lived it
is actually like dumbfounding to think that we're that dumb.
I have lived through enough presidents and enough White House
Press secretaries to know that they do the spin right.
(28:27):
They spin things. If you get asked the red cussry,
you spin a little, you spend a lot. This lady
don't even spin. This lady just lied, and they like
it's like it's like, wait, she's not even trying to
spend this. It's just not ever tried well no, because
we're in the writer thorit. It's like, well, no, like
(28:49):
we can all read the Supreme Court rule. We just
read it like two hours ago, y'all said, y'all made
a mistake, So how do you come up here? And
just a lot like okay, and we're going to call
that press Like I am just so tired because I'm like, damn,
(29:10):
at least be good at your job, right exactly. But
I also think this is now the time for journalism
to make its rise. But that's exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Is there anything that you are tired of this week? Okay?
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Honestly, I'm kind of tired of the cold. I think
a lot of people are going to turn it up
this summer, going back to the back outside summer exactly.
And I think that you can only push people down
so far before.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
That's what happened Stonewall before.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
It's just like people feel so powerless though that we
need to reach for rage and revenge as a form
of relief, right and uprising. And so to me, I'm
I'm just ready for that kind of warm, turn it
up summer where yes, it's hot inside in this hot outside.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
So we always like to close out the show with
if there's any mantra or any final words or words
that are like encouraging you to in your twenty twenty
five minus scorched the Earth, that is my mantra for
twenty twenty five. I'm like, I have to get back
in the streets again and I have to do more
because that's the only way to resist this is if
we get just as loud or loud as that's right.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
But is there any like words, phrases, quotes that you
live by?
Speaker 4 (30:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
So I opened the book with Miss Major's words and
they end with like we deserve it all. And I
just think it's so important for us to remember like
we deserve it all. We deserve to be that fully
alive version of ourselves, and that's that's the most powerful.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Place love it. Remember we deserve it all. That's right.
I want to thank you for coming on fighting word,
thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yes, this was so good, and I hope that the
people go out in by the book because it is
important that we know our history. Sankofa baby. We can't
know where we're going unless we know that's happened before.
So that's right, So thank you for helping lead us
on the path of knowing our past so that we
could push even harder for our future. Thank you for
having me, Yes, and I'll leave you with this quote
(31:19):
by Marshall herself. As long as gay people don't have
their rights all across America, there's no reason for celebration.
And to add to that quote from myself, make sure
those gay rights include all trans people. Fighting Words is
(31:47):
a production of iHeart Podcast in partnership with Best Case Studios.
I'm Georgia Johnson. This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley.
Is that can produce us are Myself and Twiggy pu
g Gar song with Them Pinks and brick.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Cats for Best Case Studios.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
The theme song was written and composed by kole Vas
Bambianna and Myself. Original music by Klevas. This episode was
edited and scored by Max Michael Miller. Our I heeart
team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rake, Fighting
Words Wherever you get your Podcasts
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