May 13, 2025 • 34 mins
George is joined by Ira Madison III, cultural writer, critic and co-host of the beloved podcast ‘Keep It’. Ira just published his first book, Pure Innocent Fun, a collection of essays about pop culture and how it has influenced his life. George and Ira talk about why pop culture is important, living in a standom era, why the real housewives of Salt Lake City is the best thing on TV right now, and the problem with conflating taste and identity.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We've gotten so much into stand up and so much
associating culture with people's identity that if someone doesn't like
something that you like, it feels like a personal attack
on you.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Ira Madison the Third is a journalist, cultural critic, co
host of the podcast Keep It, and author of the
new book Pure Innocent Fun. This collection of essays details
how pop culture has shaped IRA's life. Ira has watched
a lot of TV, and he's written about it a
lot too, so he's had a front row seat to
how the culture around shows has shifted in the past
(00:32):
few years.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
You used to be able to be like I like
this TV show, I don't like this TV show with
your friends even But now you have people on the
internet who would you say you didn't like the season.
It's a personal attack on who they are as a
being instead of yo, I just don't rock with this
season of the show.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Singing in the Heavy indeed with the world.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Take a sip and you spoke.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Your guy, you know what the plan is?
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Or kama Latin? You know one doesn't to see me.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
My name is George M.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue. Which is the number
one most challenged book in the United States.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
This is Fighting Words, a.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Show where we take you to the front lines of
the culture wars with the people who are using their
words to make change and who refuse to be silenced.
Today's guest Ira Madison the Third. I am here today
with Ira Madison the Third, who I believe just got
(01:39):
back from Coachella. So we are appreciative that you've made
some time out in your schedule for us today.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
I'm glad my voice sounds good.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah. Now, I believe I first met you on Twitter,
because I'm never going to call it what that man
calls it today. Back in the Twitter days, you're the
perfect person to ask, because you had a very rather
large platform on Twitter.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Do you miss it?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I feel like I missed the old days. Sometimes I
think there was a different platform that I had which
was not replicable. Instagram is fine, but I don't really
use any of the other.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Platforms that much.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I dip into threads when I remember, mostly because that
seems to be where people discuss housewives and Bravo.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
But then I watched Survivors.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
That's the only other thing I really watch, but that's
on Blue Sky and then it's just exhaustic dipping between
back and forth depending on which one you want to discuss.
So I just for the most part forget it exists.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, And so going back to like just your past,
what was the thing that like let you know that,
like pop culture was like what you wanted to be
your thing that you covered, that your critique that you
talked about. Like where did the love of pop culture
come from? Was it like something that you saw somebody
(02:57):
else doing when you were younger.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Or I think it was largely just consuming TV and stuff. First,
I was a big MTV person, so I was so
happy to be able to work at MTV News at
one point in my career. But I consume tr rel,
I watched the VJs, I watched MTV News. That's how
I got pop culture news to me. I read Entertainment Weekly,
the Bible, and my book. I was inspired by Chuck Clauster,
(03:22):
but I used to read his work and I just
read like all sorts of things about pop culture. I
read articles and magazines cover to cover when I was
at the bookstore all day hanging out doing nothing.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
You know.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I was never into math or science or anything else
or politics and stuff.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
I loved history. I did like history.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I love history too, but that felt more like consuming
culture too than I did like keeping up on current
politics or sports or something.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah, and you know, cultural criticism is always it gets
bashed a lot, but I always feel like it is
really necessary to everybody always. I don't know who is think,
but it's like everybody. But it's like we get bassed
for having an opinion now at times, and it's like, oh,
(04:09):
here's another thing piece and did you just make the
stay said, did you just read the big bullfont?
Speaker 4 (04:13):
What did you actually? They do click the article.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
It's hard because of the situation that we're in now,
just because I feel like what people have always criticized critics.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
No one's ever wanted to be critiqued.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
But it is important culturally going back and reading critiques
of pop culture from the past in order to write
that book about my upbringing in the nineties and two thousands.
Those are important cultural artifacts because they tell you usually
a cultural critic will be writing not just what they
(04:45):
think about something, but they'll be writing about a piece
of art in the context of where we are now.
They'll be referencing other reviews and opinions on art, which
is documentation of art and how we feel about it
in the moment, because as human beings don't do you can't.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Just do it through oral tradition. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
We watched tiktoks and first of all, people younger than
the events they're talking about it either making up shit
or getting things wrong. There's so many things where people
talk about the context of when a show was created
or an album came out or something, and it's they're
speaking from the context they have now or just making
up things, and that's actually not true. It's actually how
(05:27):
we thought about many of these things in the past.
And so many artists or albums that we love now
we're critiqued in the past too. And I think people
just think that people hate everything now. No, many pieces
of art go through various stages of people not liking
it or not loving it, or people appreciate it in
the future, et cetera. And I think it's important to
(05:48):
know that about art. And I also think it's important
to have people who actually know what they're talking about,
because I think that we're in this space now where
content creation is so big that it's so much easier
for a studio or someone to either one get the
fans to promote stuff and the stands are always gonna
love it, or just pay people to do probo. That
(06:09):
seems like it's cultural criticism, but it's not. It's just
pr Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Oh god.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
On Twitter the other day they were arguing over us.
For those who won't be able to see this, I
was wearing a Janet hoodie and they were arguing about
Janet and Madonna, I believe, but you could tell that
these were people who had no frame of reference that
jen and Jackson was actually famous in the seventies and
so they were like Madonna. By the time Jenna Jackson's
(06:34):
first album came out, Madonna had already had an album
and everybody was like yes, But Jenna Jackson had already
been on television.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
And was people knew who the Jackson's were were, and
you know, she came from her family was and it
was I think of it in terms of Lizzo, not
to dragt that, because I know she came for Britney
saying Brittany has always been doing an impersonation of Janet
Jackson just to speak and get to the void. And
it's really ignorant of culture as it existed, because people
(07:02):
have always tried to associate Brittany with Butadona, et cetera.
But Brittany has always revered Janet. Brittany was like, if
you're watching the making the videos, if you're reading old interviews,
Brittany is always talking about Janet, and Janet liked her too.
Michael loved Brittany too, but Jackson's loved her. So you're
creating this context now because of cultural appropriation and how
(07:25):
people feel about you in terms of rock and roll music,
and you're trying to throw it at Britney Spears. But
it's like you're ignoring the context of where Britney existed
and what was acknowledged at the time.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
And I saw that and I was like, maybe that
was not the right word, because it wasn't an fascination.
It was like, Oh, it's like, Brittany comes from the
school the school.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yes, you're a pop singer, so you should know what
that means too, because everyone comes from the school of Lizzle.
You come from the school of pritzl several.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
School because I always say too, I was like, if
you look at her homecoming performance, I was like, it's
very Phyllis Hyman code, and I was like, there aren't
a lot of women who growl on their music the
way she growls. But I was like, Phyllis Hyman is
one of the pioneers of that particular growl sound in music.
And I was like, that's why you gotta know your
music history. And again why cultural criticism is so important,
(08:23):
because it connects the dots for.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
And it gets it too. The Beyonce thing too.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
When people cut free credits, it's sampling, et cetera, and
they're so attached to like Babe, pitting her against Taylor
Swift because she created this with one person, and I
think that it's also we've also got to the space
where people think that art is just created in a vacuum,
like these people are in a room writing in their journals,
or it's just Deben one producer, and there's no context
(08:49):
of music that came before them. Because I'm sorry, someone
could be making music without samples, but there's still sampling
styles and sounds and pop music that came before them.
Case in point, Lady Gaga from Coachola amazing performance, So
she has the song how Bad.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Do You Want Me?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
On there immediately people are like, this is sounding like
Taylor Swift, etc. And yes, it does sound similar to
maybe a Taylor Swift power pop anthem. But Gaga is
taking from eighties pop stars, eighties power ballads, Debbie Harry,
Belinda Carlisle, like she is coming from history and those
(09:28):
sounds existed before Taylor Swift put them on a record.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yeah, do you feel I know I feel this struggle
at times because the space has gotten so much younger
and so much more accessible. I don't necessarily feel aged
out of the space of fatigue and cultural criticism, but
I do at times feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Uphill battle, yes, not aged out. Nobody knows how old
I am.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Hey do you can look it up, but I don't
look by And I just love kurrt pop culture. I
think you can't really get a shot of talking about
pop culture and critiquing it if you're still consuming it.
That is just how I feel about culture in general,
like you can't really be a shot of it if
you're still interacting with it. But it is an uphill
battle getting people to care. I had this problem with
White Lotus recently, which, by the way, saying you don't
(10:18):
Rock with the season. This show then all of a
sudden means you hate the show in general, and it's
there's no context of what you said about it the
previous two years too.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, it's a very parasocial relationship that I feel like
has developed that didn't exist.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
I wasn't even ten years ago. It was never like this, even.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
When I'm sorry, it was not cool to be this
obsessed with artists when we were growing up. It was corny.
It was corny to be like, that's your whole personality.
Remember the show made on MTV or like Fanatic like
it was fun, right, Those are shows were fun to
watch because those it was weird to be like I
(10:56):
want to be like Britney Spears. My whole room is
decorated like Britney Spears. Right now, that's the norm. Everyone
has to be a stand.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
And I find it so funny too because one one,
most of them don't even have a frame of reference
of eminem song Stan, which I find particularly because he
lays it out like the like literally it's like the danger.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Of STANDI Stan standum people gonna die.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, that I do feel like social media has created
a parasocial dynamic that is dangerous.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Yeah, and we're.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Now seeing the ill effects of it.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
People have as they're not friends with people.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
And one follow back from a celebrity and all of
a sudden, it's.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, people have to say they were followed back by
their favorite celebrity, like in their bio Get Life.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Let's talk about your book, Pure Innocent Fun. It's an
essay collection, correct, Yes it is. Could you just tell
the listeners it was an overview of what the book
was about.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
What inspires you to write the book.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, the book is about growing up in the nineties
and the late nineties early two thousands in Milwaukee, and
it's about what you asked me about before, what got
me into culture, watching all this stuff, consuming it, becoming
obsessed with pop culture, music, TV show, movies, and how
(12:24):
I was a person who wasn't very social and this culture.
Learning these things is what helped me become a more
social person. It was through talking about movies with people,
was through sharing and listening to music with friends. I
think it's really a journey about how pop cultures made
me who I am, but how it also connects all
of us and makes us who we are. It gives
(12:44):
us a way to communicate. Social media obviously is the
way a lot of people communicate now, and it brought
a lot of us together, Like you said, it brought
us together. How did those Twitter days work? Initially we
were talking about movies, TV music, We were talking about
things that we remembered. Culture, We remember it and the
way that it connected us to other people. Maybe we
had similar experiences, or we'd argue about our different experiences,
(13:07):
et cetera. It's just that same thing about in a way,
how so much of that existed before the Internet.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
The last show we all used to watch as a
family might have been Insecure.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Yeah, Secure Sun Days.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
I think we did not miss Insecure, also how to
go with a murder and scandal? Like they became very
big staples of how we as a community came together,
as well as us all watching Beyonce's Homecoming through whatever
stream of service we could find that year as a family.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
And so.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Throughout the essay collection, what was your upbringing and what
were you allowed to listen to not listen to?
Speaker 3 (13:45):
What were you allowed to watch not watch?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Because I think about it for myself and I always
remember during one of my birthday parties Onyx, which was
a rap group back in the day with sticky fingers
and a couple of other people, and my cousins had
got an onyx ceeded. There were a few years older
than me, and they played it at my birthday party
and my father snatched.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
And was like, absolutely not right.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
There was still certain restrictions I felt back then that
they put on us. That it's hard to do now
with streaming services and everything else. But yeah, what were
you able to watch and not.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
Well watch it? I could mostly watch anything. What's weird does?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I have an essay called not watching the Simpsons about
how I wasn't allowed to My grandfather, who I lived with,
largely did not allow me to watch The Simpsons. It
did when we watched want Me Watching X Files either
interesting with my dad, Yeah, these were the two weird shows.
But then as I got older it had a TV
in my room and everything, I've watched whatever I wanted,
but early on it was The Simpsons, And I dive
(14:40):
into actually why that was the case for so many people.
There are a lot of people my age group who
have a similar sort of upbringing. They weren't allowed to
watch The Simpsons, and it was largely because Bart Simpson
was seen as this rebel against society and conservative norms.
He bucked against authority, and weirdly, he was used in
Bush which is State of the Union speech where you know,
(15:02):
we said family should be a lot more like the
Waltons and less like the Simpsons. So it even became
a political moment, the fact that Bart Simpson rebelled against authority.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah, and it's funny too. I always think about, Oh,
I wasn't allowed to watch The good Son.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
With movies, I could watch whatever. It was so weird.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
We had to cover our faces for like sexies or whatever,
but violence. My family was a Hong Kong action movie house.
We watched Belli, We watched crime thrillers Anjelina, Joe Lee,
Tom Cruise in the house. We watched thrillers and things. Yeah,
movies if we can watch anything.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
And it's funny. For us, it was books.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I could read anything because I read Confessions of a
Video Vixen.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Me and my mom read that together. So like read
any books.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
And we used to sit in the car listen to
Wendy Williams Got the Heat, so I could listen like
on radio.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
If Wendy was being radio. We could listen to anything, anything.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Books, I could read anything. TV was where it was
like we all know a whole block. So I was
sneaking watch Real Sex, and I was sneaking watch squeers Folk.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Where's Folks?
Speaker 1 (16:09):
I stuck and watched He stuck and watched Undressed on
MTV at night.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Oh my god, yestah, Yes, stay up and watch bt
hu cut.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
The only thing I remember from bet Uncut is the
tip video. Yes, the credit card sliding down. Everybody remembers that.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Every that is so funny, everybody.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I think that another cultural moment that we all shared
was like everybody, if you asked them a bet, they like,
it's the Tip Drove video.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yes, yeah, it's definitely the Tip Drove video.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
I think that TV was one of the more was
probably just the wild West, where it seemed like adults
were like I don't know what's going on there. They
at least knew what's going on in movies and stuff.
Music was because I listened to mostly everything. I listened
to the radio a lot alone. I remember the first
I write about getting into Little Kim, and I think
that was maybe the first thing where it was like
(16:58):
party and people are like what you do one listen to.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
That Sarah who put us on She put me on
Anita Baker and she put me on a little camps.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yes, that was younger, though I feel like I was
specifically the age two world.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
What's it? Got a TV in my room?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
And once the young millennials start getting their own autonomy,
with all of us having discmans, et cetera and stuff,
you listen to whatever you want and watch whatever you
want at a certain point, and when I could go
to the movies by myself and seek in the R
rated movies or et cetera, it was a rap on
being able to keep culture from me.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Then you say Buffy the Vampires Layers where you learned
about sex?
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Yeah, and Buffy the Vampire Say it was the show
and it was.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
It was a hit show.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yes, it was like people love Buffy. You know, it's
my favorite TV show still. And you know, I found
that so many black people used to love Buffy too,
and it was just because it had that same vibe.
It's like Xena and Hercules Era. Yes, and she was
her boyfriend Angel turned into a demon when she had
sex with him. And she dealt with dating in high
school and college and then season six deals with her
(17:59):
coming back from the dead and dating Spike, and that
relationship doves into s and M and shame and sex.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
The show was.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Given a lot of people, especially queer people, like an
education in the sex.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
Yeah, I always say we had to find it where
we could find it.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
You can find it where, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Because we didn't have, like I said, besides queer as folk.
But it was like, these people don't look like me,
and the only time a person on here that does
look like me is when they're fetishizing them.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
And also, what was the other show Spin City had?
Speaker 4 (18:25):
The one game.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
I did to always talk about Michael J. Fox, Yeah,
and I was.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Like they had the one gay dude working in the
office and I was the black dude. I was like,
oh yeah, something that looks like me. And Murphy Brown
was where I learned about the word lesbian.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yes, yeah, those were the good shows that I missed too,
like the comedy the Adult Symptoms, you know about adults
in the workplace, and we missed that.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Now back to my conversation with Ira Madison the third
Now you brought up Housewives.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I am an avid fan.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Of several franchises of Housewives and you said your favorite
is Salt Lake City. Okay, so how did you feel
about the Salt Lake City just the season, but also
Mary Crosby really she took it for me. So it's
but like her resurgence with being like a real housewife,
(19:59):
because I felt like he season was she was a
real housewife doing with real things.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
They shared them with the world.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
How do you think that's like really important, especially for
these franchises that are starting to struggle.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
Some mm hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Right now, we have so many people dressing for events
and doing glam and stuff, and we've really gotten away
from what the show used to be. I think you
would just be in these women's homes meeting their family
and they'd be dressed for whatever.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Too.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Some of these women are spending so much money on
their outfits. I'm like, you can't be making money from
the show. And it felt like a real personal, intimate
story and we haven't gotten really these really intimate stories anymore.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
It's all about fighting with.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Each other, which is fun, but they're not coming out
of natural beefs.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Nah made plays. They all love Jealous, Oh my god,
they jealous.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Friend no drift.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
How they all got umbrellas, call them moss and norellas.
In what do you feel your current role now is
in the cultural criticisms space.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
The old guard.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
The guard rails. I feel like we're the guardrails, Like.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
We are a little bit.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yeah, I'm still keeping up with culture, but I'm also
returning to things like writing books to just get our
culture written down in a textual space and finding some
way to still remind people that stuff is important.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I wrote a book about the Harlem Renaissance, and part
of it was because I just kept seeing like really
interesting arguments about little knaves X and who opened the
door for little knas X, And they kept naming white
queer people, and I was like, I am very confused
at the lack of understanding or history that you all
(21:40):
seem to be skipping over, because there was an entire
period called the Harlem Renaissance full of queer people who
y'all are still sampling and making movies about today.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
So like, it's usually never a white person.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
It is usually never a white were person.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
That white person in general, we opened those doors so
it looks in, takes it out and closes the doorback,
and then that's how it.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Happened, right, exactly right. I always talk about it when
it comes to Stonewall. I'm like, yo, sorry to have
to break it to y'all, but if y'all thought white
where people was fighting an NYPD in nineteen sixty nine,
y'all have no.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
They were actually quite happy with keeping non white people
out of their bars, and they're very much happy to
just keep doing what they were doing while trans people
and people of color were being harassed by the police
right and harassed.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
That was likest, We're cool in the bar.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
It didn't happen until finally Stonewall happened, but even then
it was people of color and trans people who were
acting first.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Exactly like I tell people all the time, I'm like, listen,
the only real time where white where people led the
attack against the police was January sixth, So.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
It was there was some queer people there, you know what,
I'll respect the rioters pronouns.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
I don't know. I don't know who. It was probably
a good diverse group.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
It was definitely right doing the laundry.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
How do you feel, though, especially now with the attempts
to ban not just freedom of speech, because it's like
it's this is a much deeper thing than just like
freedom of speech, because like, yeah, and the notion that
like today, these kids can't process books that talk about
(23:41):
identity or talk about sex. When I watched The Golden
Girls every single night, and it was a show from
the eighties that was on regular television that teens kids
could watch that talked about all of these topics. So
to think that we have not progressed from there, that
(24:01):
this particular new group of young adults can't process that,
it's control.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I think older generations have always tried to control what
people can think and read and say, but now it's
a lot easier to do. So it's a lot easier
to convince masses that people are being corrupted by works.
And I think people in power have just gotten savvier
at manipulating people into turning against things. So it's like
(24:28):
it's books that we all read but.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Has been around for every right long time.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
But as Tony Morrison said, she learned one of her
books wasn't allowed in a prison because it could incide
a riot, and people in the authority know that, and
they're like, let's just keep all of that stuff away
from everybody.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Yeah, yeah, what do you feel the role now with
the current just the current state of the world the
United States, what do you feel our role is now?
And I don't even want to say reversing this. I
think reversing this is too complacent. Yeah, right, it's like
too complacent, right, Like why don't allies and burning things
(25:05):
down and having to rebuild? What do you feel our
roles should look like? Because I I don't know.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
Actually, I know we need allies.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
I know we need people like Harvard University who is
not going to Columbia route and it's being like we
will do whatever the fuck.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
We want to and you know, doing with them and
performing like a pact, like.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah, you need people being like no, you're not going
to tell us what to do, because these are institutions
that have been along much longer than a Trump administration
and they'll be around long after these people are dead.
And I think it be who's any institution to not
kowtow to Trump, because then it's you're just setting yourself
up for failure for the future, your institution will crumble.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Unfortunately, as writers, as artists like we are constantly at
the mercy of these institutions and we need these institutions
to continue to support us, I mean to support each other.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah, how do you feel about your role currently? You
have a podcast? Yeah, you've had one.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
You've been doing this for a minute now, yeah, periologically
long time.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Say how do you feel about the fact that we
are starting to at least see more like black queer
people have the ability to have podcasts? And how do
you feel like you've broken that space in a lot
of ways?
Speaker 4 (26:29):
For It's weird.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
It's interesting because I'm always excited when they're more black
queer voices able to share their opinion, et cetera. But
I also feel like podcasting in general is just oversaturated,
like everyone has one. There's so many more voices. But
then there's also too many voices. Unfortunately there's no gatekeeping,
and unfortunately gatekeeping is a good thing. Sometimes everyone does
something and with varying degrees of expertise, care, expertise or care,
(26:56):
then what is the point? It's like, what if everybody
was your pestor at college? Yeah, instead of being a professor.
I'm glad I had my professors. I don't want someone
walking in and just being like I know about English,
I'll teach you how to write and they've never read
a book.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Now, back to my conversation with Ira Madison, the.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Third, is there anything that you're working on in near
future or I'm a fielder.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I'm back now, I'm back in New York focusing on theater.
Actually I started my I started my writing career actually
with theater. I had my master's in theater from and
and it was what led me to want to go
and move into television. But I think that the way
the TV industry is now in Hollywood and postwriters strike
and stuff, theater feels more fun, it feels more dangerous,
it feels more in the moment, and you can also
(28:12):
say whatever you want to say without oversight from a
studio head, a network a David Zoslov who might disappear
your work even after you've made it.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Well, who was that traveled to see That's No White
Star and asking to tweet?
Speaker 4 (28:28):
I was like, that was Mark Platt.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
But yeah, it just feels like the medium where you
can get people invested now, and I'm interested in finding
ways to get younger people into theater again.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Too.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
When I think they are into theater, they're going to
see their younger stars in things they want dangerous interesting works,
things that aren't filtered through algorithms, things that feel original,
And so I think that's a space where I'm just
putting a lot of my focus and energy.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
And that live performance.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
We always like to close out the show. Two things.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
I used to have a column called George is Tired,
and every week I would just write what I was
tired about, whether it.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Was good, bad, or indifferent.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
I am not sure what I am tired about, but
I think if I had to say, I am tired
of Scott Jennings on my timeline, I think that the
CNN panelists Scott Jennings, it makes zero sense to continue
to platform somebody that's stupid, and we're just going to
(29:36):
say it, like, please keep me off the timeline.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
At some point it's actually dumb.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
He can't even believe this, And so it's like I
want us to stop normalizing stupidity and thinking that stupidity
should always have an opinion. So I am tired of
Scott Jennings this week. Is there anything that you are
tired of for the week? I'm tired of hearing about
I try to I tried the space about the baby mamas.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
I'm tired of hearing about and trot tied about everything.
It's honestly, Congress, get rid of him, do something anything.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah the science experiment is over. Yeah we have the results.
You all failed. There will not be a science fair.
Time to let it go.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Final thing.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I always try and live by a different model each year,
Like at the beginning of the year, I adopt like
a personal mantra for myself just to keep me going.
And January first of this year, my mantra will scorched
the earth. I had to just reframe, like there's no
getting these people to understand. And so if I have
to scorch it, if I have to burn a bridge,
I will never walk across again.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Then that's what I have to do. Is there any
words that you're living by for twenty twenty five?
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Leave something behind, beautiful, leave something behind. And a good
way to leave something behind is to tell your story.
And we are so grateful that you continue to tell
your stories the stories of other people and make sure
that our history is archived because it's so important.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
And telling other people's stories is important too, It's so important.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
I think that's important to me.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Now I've told a bit of my story, and I
think that I'm trying to tell some other people's stories.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
And that's what theaters about too.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
It's about writing a story and then other actors and
you tell that story.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
Convey Yeah, conveying that story.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I think it's about community and leaving things behind and
working with community.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yes, yes, Ara, I want to thank you for coming
on my podcast Fighting Words.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Thank you for inspiring me all those years ago.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
I used to watch you as a I was a
newer journalist and getting into it and being able to
watch what you were able to do allowed me to
dream of what I could be able to do.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
And so to even be here.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Now with my own books and my own podcasts, I'm super,
super grateful to even know you.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
Yeah, oh, thank you.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
You don't have to hold onto the pain, to hold
on to the memory.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
This is a quote from five times Grammy Award winning singer, performer,
and gay icon Janet Jackson. Janet was the youngest of
the Jackson family. Her nineteen ninety seven single Together Again
was a tribute to a friend who passed away from HIV.
Janet Jackson was also inducted into the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame in twenty nineteen. Over the past few years,
(32:25):
I have lost several people in my life, from my
grandmother to my older brother, and even most recently, my
six year old cousin Fager, who passed away from childhood cancer.
When I think about them, though, I don't think about
pain anymore. I think about the joy that they brought
to my life in so many other lives. I write
(32:46):
about them because I also know that even if they're
not here in the physical body, as long as I
continue to tell their stories, they will live on forever.
In many ways, when Janet Jackson wrote that song about
her friend, she ensured that the life of her friend
and the lives of so many others that we have lost,
will live on forever. So even though we may feel
pain when we lose people, try to remember to center
(33:08):
yourself in the joy of having them in your life
for the time that you had them. Fighting Words is
(33:32):
a production of iHeart Podcast in partnership with Beth's Case Studios.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
I'm Georgian Johnson.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
This episode was produced by Charlotte morland Is That Can
Produce Us Are Myself and Tweaky p Giguar Song with
Adam Pikes and Brick Cat for Best Case Studios. The
theme song was written composed by Kovas, Banbianna and myself.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Original music by Covas.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
This episode was edited and scored by Max Michael Miller.
Our heart team is Ali Perry and Karl Ketel. Following
rape Fighting Words Wherever you get your podcasts
We've gotten so much into stand up and so much
associating culture with people's identity that if someone doesn't like
something that you like, it feels like a personal attack
on you.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Ira Madison the Third is a journalist, cultural critic, co
host of the podcast Keep It, and author of the
new book Pure Innocent Fun. This collection of essays details
how pop culture has shaped IRA's life. Ira has watched
a lot of TV, and he's written about it a
lot too, so he's had a front row seat to
how the culture around shows has shifted in the past
(00:32):
few years.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
You used to be able to be like I like
this TV show, I don't like this TV show with
your friends even But now you have people on the
internet who would you say you didn't like the season.
It's a personal attack on who they are as a
being instead of yo, I just don't rock with this
season of the show.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Singing in the Heavy indeed with the world.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Take a sip and you spoke.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Your guy, you know what the plan is?
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Or kama Latin? You know one doesn't to see me.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
My name is George M.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue. Which is the number
one most challenged book in the United States.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
This is Fighting Words, a.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Show where we take you to the front lines of
the culture wars with the people who are using their
words to make change and who refuse to be silenced.
Today's guest Ira Madison the Third. I am here today
with Ira Madison the Third, who I believe just got
(01:39):
back from Coachella. So we are appreciative that you've made
some time out in your schedule for us today.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
I'm glad my voice sounds good.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah. Now, I believe I first met you on Twitter,
because I'm never going to call it what that man
calls it today. Back in the Twitter days, you're the
perfect person to ask, because you had a very rather
large platform on Twitter.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Do you miss it?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I feel like I missed the old days. Sometimes I
think there was a different platform that I had which
was not replicable. Instagram is fine, but I don't really
use any of the other.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Platforms that much.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I dip into threads when I remember, mostly because that
seems to be where people discuss housewives and Bravo.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
But then I watched Survivors.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
That's the only other thing I really watch, but that's
on Blue Sky and then it's just exhaustic dipping between
back and forth depending on which one you want to discuss.
So I just for the most part forget it exists.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, And so going back to like just your past,
what was the thing that like let you know that,
like pop culture was like what you wanted to be
your thing that you covered, that your critique that you
talked about. Like where did the love of pop culture
come from? Was it like something that you saw somebody
(02:57):
else doing when you were younger.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Or I think it was largely just consuming TV and stuff. First,
I was a big MTV person, so I was so
happy to be able to work at MTV News at
one point in my career. But I consume tr rel,
I watched the VJs, I watched MTV News. That's how
I got pop culture news to me. I read Entertainment Weekly,
the Bible, and my book. I was inspired by Chuck Clauster,
(03:22):
but I used to read his work and I just
read like all sorts of things about pop culture. I
read articles and magazines cover to cover when I was
at the bookstore all day hanging out doing nothing.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
You know.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I was never into math or science or anything else
or politics and stuff.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
I loved history. I did like history.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I love history too, but that felt more like consuming
culture too than I did like keeping up on current
politics or sports or something.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah, and you know, cultural criticism is always it gets
bashed a lot, but I always feel like it is
really necessary to everybody always. I don't know who is think,
but it's like everybody. But it's like we get bassed
for having an opinion now at times, and it's like, oh,
(04:09):
here's another thing piece and did you just make the
stay said, did you just read the big bullfont?
Speaker 4 (04:13):
What did you actually? They do click the article.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
It's hard because of the situation that we're in now,
just because I feel like what people have always criticized critics.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
No one's ever wanted to be critiqued.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
But it is important culturally going back and reading critiques
of pop culture from the past in order to write
that book about my upbringing in the nineties and two thousands.
Those are important cultural artifacts because they tell you usually
a cultural critic will be writing not just what they
(04:45):
think about something, but they'll be writing about a piece
of art in the context of where we are now.
They'll be referencing other reviews and opinions on art, which
is documentation of art and how we feel about it
in the moment, because as human beings don't do you can't.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Just do it through oral tradition. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
We watched tiktoks and first of all, people younger than
the events they're talking about it either making up shit
or getting things wrong. There's so many things where people
talk about the context of when a show was created
or an album came out or something, and it's they're
speaking from the context they have now or just making
up things, and that's actually not true. It's actually how
(05:27):
we thought about many of these things in the past.
And so many artists or albums that we love now
we're critiqued in the past too. And I think people
just think that people hate everything now. No, many pieces
of art go through various stages of people not liking
it or not loving it, or people appreciate it in
the future, et cetera. And I think it's important to
(05:48):
know that about art. And I also think it's important
to have people who actually know what they're talking about,
because I think that we're in this space now where
content creation is so big that it's so much easier
for a studio or someone to either one get the
fans to promote stuff and the stands are always gonna
love it, or just pay people to do probo. That
(06:09):
seems like it's cultural criticism, but it's not. It's just
pr Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Oh god.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
On Twitter the other day they were arguing over us.
For those who won't be able to see this, I
was wearing a Janet hoodie and they were arguing about
Janet and Madonna, I believe, but you could tell that
these were people who had no frame of reference that
jen and Jackson was actually famous in the seventies and
so they were like Madonna. By the time Jenna Jackson's
(06:34):
first album came out, Madonna had already had an album
and everybody was like yes, But Jenna Jackson had already
been on television.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
And was people knew who the Jackson's were were, and
you know, she came from her family was and it
was I think of it in terms of Lizzo, not
to dragt that, because I know she came for Britney
saying Brittany has always been doing an impersonation of Janet
Jackson just to speak and get to the void. And
it's really ignorant of culture as it existed, because people
(07:02):
have always tried to associate Brittany with Butadona, et cetera.
But Brittany has always revered Janet. Brittany was like, if
you're watching the making the videos, if you're reading old interviews,
Brittany is always talking about Janet, and Janet liked her too.
Michael loved Brittany too, but Jackson's loved her. So you're
creating this context now because of cultural appropriation and how
(07:25):
people feel about you in terms of rock and roll music,
and you're trying to throw it at Britney Spears. But
it's like you're ignoring the context of where Britney existed
and what was acknowledged at the time.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
And I saw that and I was like, maybe that
was not the right word, because it wasn't an fascination.
It was like, Oh, it's like, Brittany comes from the
school the school.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yes, you're a pop singer, so you should know what
that means too, because everyone comes from the school of Lizzle.
You come from the school of pritzl several.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
School because I always say too, I was like, if
you look at her homecoming performance, I was like, it's
very Phyllis Hyman code, and I was like, there aren't
a lot of women who growl on their music the
way she growls. But I was like, Phyllis Hyman is
one of the pioneers of that particular growl sound in music.
And I was like, that's why you gotta know your
music history. And again why cultural criticism is so important,
(08:23):
because it connects the dots for.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
And it gets it too. The Beyonce thing too.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
When people cut free credits, it's sampling, et cetera, and
they're so attached to like Babe, pitting her against Taylor
Swift because she created this with one person, and I
think that it's also we've also got to the space
where people think that art is just created in a vacuum,
like these people are in a room writing in their journals,
or it's just Deben one producer, and there's no context
(08:49):
of music that came before them. Because I'm sorry, someone
could be making music without samples, but there's still sampling
styles and sounds and pop music that came before them.
Case in point, Lady Gaga from Coachola amazing performance, So
she has the song how Bad.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Do You Want Me?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
On there immediately people are like, this is sounding like
Taylor Swift, etc. And yes, it does sound similar to
maybe a Taylor Swift power pop anthem. But Gaga is
taking from eighties pop stars, eighties power ballads, Debbie Harry,
Belinda Carlisle, like she is coming from history and those
(09:28):
sounds existed before Taylor Swift put them on a record.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yeah, do you feel I know I feel this struggle
at times because the space has gotten so much younger
and so much more accessible. I don't necessarily feel aged
out of the space of fatigue and cultural criticism, but
I do at times feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Uphill battle, yes, not aged out. Nobody knows how old
I am.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Hey do you can look it up, but I don't
look by And I just love kurrt pop culture. I
think you can't really get a shot of talking about
pop culture and critiquing it if you're still consuming it.
That is just how I feel about culture in general,
like you can't really be a shot of it if
you're still interacting with it. But it is an uphill
battle getting people to care. I had this problem with
White Lotus recently, which, by the way, saying you don't
(10:18):
Rock with the season. This show then all of a
sudden means you hate the show in general, and it's
there's no context of what you said about it the
previous two years too.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, it's a very parasocial relationship that I feel like
has developed that didn't exist.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
I wasn't even ten years ago. It was never like this, even.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
When I'm sorry, it was not cool to be this
obsessed with artists when we were growing up. It was corny.
It was corny to be like, that's your whole personality.
Remember the show made on MTV or like Fanatic like
it was fun, right, Those are shows were fun to
watch because those it was weird to be like I
(10:56):
want to be like Britney Spears. My whole room is
decorated like Britney Spears. Right now, that's the norm. Everyone
has to be a stand.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
And I find it so funny too because one one,
most of them don't even have a frame of reference
of eminem song Stan, which I find particularly because he
lays it out like the like literally it's like the danger.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Of STANDI Stan standum people gonna die.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, that I do feel like social media has created
a parasocial dynamic that is dangerous.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Yeah, and we're.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Now seeing the ill effects of it.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
People have as they're not friends with people.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
And one follow back from a celebrity and all of
a sudden, it's.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, people have to say they were followed back by
their favorite celebrity, like in their bio Get Life.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Let's talk about your book, Pure Innocent Fun. It's an
essay collection, correct, Yes it is. Could you just tell
the listeners it was an overview of what the book
was about.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
What inspires you to write the book.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, the book is about growing up in the nineties
and the late nineties early two thousands in Milwaukee, and
it's about what you asked me about before, what got
me into culture, watching all this stuff, consuming it, becoming
obsessed with pop culture, music, TV show, movies, and how
(12:24):
I was a person who wasn't very social and this culture.
Learning these things is what helped me become a more
social person. It was through talking about movies with people,
was through sharing and listening to music with friends. I
think it's really a journey about how pop cultures made
me who I am, but how it also connects all
of us and makes us who we are. It gives
(12:44):
us a way to communicate. Social media obviously is the
way a lot of people communicate now, and it brought
a lot of us together, Like you said, it brought
us together. How did those Twitter days work? Initially we
were talking about movies, TV music, We were talking about
things that we remembered. Culture, We remember it and the
way that it connected us to other people. Maybe we
had similar experiences, or we'd argue about our different experiences,
(13:07):
et cetera. It's just that same thing about in a way,
how so much of that existed before the Internet.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
The last show we all used to watch as a
family might have been Insecure.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Yeah, Secure Sun Days.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
I think we did not miss Insecure, also how to
go with a murder and scandal? Like they became very
big staples of how we as a community came together,
as well as us all watching Beyonce's Homecoming through whatever
stream of service we could find that year as a family.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
And so.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Throughout the essay collection, what was your upbringing and what
were you allowed to listen to not listen to?
Speaker 3 (13:45):
What were you allowed to watch not watch?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Because I think about it for myself and I always
remember during one of my birthday parties Onyx, which was
a rap group back in the day with sticky fingers
and a couple of other people, and my cousins had
got an onyx ceeded. There were a few years older
than me, and they played it at my birthday party
and my father snatched.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
And was like, absolutely not right.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
There was still certain restrictions I felt back then that
they put on us. That it's hard to do now
with streaming services and everything else. But yeah, what were
you able to watch and not.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
Well watch it? I could mostly watch anything. What's weird does?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I have an essay called not watching the Simpsons about
how I wasn't allowed to My grandfather, who I lived with,
largely did not allow me to watch The Simpsons. It
did when we watched want Me Watching X Files either
interesting with my dad, Yeah, these were the two weird shows.
But then as I got older it had a TV
in my room and everything, I've watched whatever I wanted,
but early on it was The Simpsons, And I dive
(14:40):
into actually why that was the case for so many people.
There are a lot of people my age group who
have a similar sort of upbringing. They weren't allowed to
watch The Simpsons, and it was largely because Bart Simpson
was seen as this rebel against society and conservative norms.
He bucked against authority, and weirdly, he was used in
Bush which is State of the Union speech where you know,
(15:02):
we said family should be a lot more like the
Waltons and less like the Simpsons. So it even became
a political moment, the fact that Bart Simpson rebelled against authority.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah, and it's funny too. I always think about, Oh,
I wasn't allowed to watch The good Son.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
With movies, I could watch whatever. It was so weird.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
We had to cover our faces for like sexies or whatever,
but violence. My family was a Hong Kong action movie house.
We watched Belli, We watched crime thrillers Anjelina, Joe Lee,
Tom Cruise in the house. We watched thrillers and things. Yeah,
movies if we can watch anything.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
And it's funny. For us, it was books.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I could read anything because I read Confessions of a
Video Vixen.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Me and my mom read that together. So like read
any books.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
And we used to sit in the car listen to
Wendy Williams Got the Heat, so I could listen like
on radio.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
If Wendy was being radio. We could listen to anything, anything.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Books, I could read anything. TV was where it was
like we all know a whole block. So I was
sneaking watch Real Sex, and I was sneaking watch squeers Folk.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Where's Folks?
Speaker 1 (16:09):
I stuck and watched He stuck and watched Undressed on
MTV at night.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Oh my god, yestah, Yes, stay up and watch bt
hu cut.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
The only thing I remember from bet Uncut is the
tip video. Yes, the credit card sliding down. Everybody remembers that.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Every that is so funny, everybody.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I think that another cultural moment that we all shared
was like everybody, if you asked them a bet, they like,
it's the Tip Drove video.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yes, yeah, it's definitely the Tip Drove video.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
I think that TV was one of the more was
probably just the wild West, where it seemed like adults
were like I don't know what's going on there. They
at least knew what's going on in movies and stuff.
Music was because I listened to mostly everything. I listened
to the radio a lot alone. I remember the first
I write about getting into Little Kim, and I think
that was maybe the first thing where it was like
(16:58):
party and people are like what you do one listen to.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
That Sarah who put us on She put me on
Anita Baker and she put me on a little camps.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yes, that was younger, though I feel like I was
specifically the age two world.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
What's it? Got a TV in my room?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
And once the young millennials start getting their own autonomy,
with all of us having discmans, et cetera and stuff,
you listen to whatever you want and watch whatever you
want at a certain point, and when I could go
to the movies by myself and seek in the R
rated movies or et cetera, it was a rap on
being able to keep culture from me.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Then you say Buffy the Vampires Layers where you learned
about sex?
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Yeah, and Buffy the Vampire Say it was the show
and it was.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
It was a hit show.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yes, it was like people love Buffy. You know, it's
my favorite TV show still. And you know, I found
that so many black people used to love Buffy too,
and it was just because it had that same vibe.
It's like Xena and Hercules Era. Yes, and she was
her boyfriend Angel turned into a demon when she had
sex with him. And she dealt with dating in high
school and college and then season six deals with her
(17:59):
coming back from the dead and dating Spike, and that
relationship doves into s and M and shame and sex.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
The show was.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Given a lot of people, especially queer people, like an
education in the sex.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
Yeah, I always say we had to find it where
we could find it.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
You can find it where, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Because we didn't have, like I said, besides queer as folk.
But it was like, these people don't look like me,
and the only time a person on here that does
look like me is when they're fetishizing them.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
And also, what was the other show Spin City had?
Speaker 4 (18:25):
The one game.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
I did to always talk about Michael J. Fox, Yeah,
and I was.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Like they had the one gay dude working in the
office and I was the black dude. I was like,
oh yeah, something that looks like me. And Murphy Brown
was where I learned about the word lesbian.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yes, yeah, those were the good shows that I missed too,
like the comedy the Adult Symptoms, you know about adults
in the workplace, and we missed that.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Now back to my conversation with Ira Madison the third
Now you brought up Housewives.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I am an avid fan.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Of several franchises of Housewives and you said your favorite
is Salt Lake City. Okay, so how did you feel
about the Salt Lake City just the season, but also
Mary Crosby really she took it for me. So it's
but like her resurgence with being like a real housewife,
(19:59):
because I felt like he season was she was a
real housewife doing with real things.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
They shared them with the world.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
How do you think that's like really important, especially for
these franchises that are starting to struggle.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
Some mm hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Right now, we have so many people dressing for events
and doing glam and stuff, and we've really gotten away
from what the show used to be. I think you
would just be in these women's homes meeting their family
and they'd be dressed for whatever.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Too.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Some of these women are spending so much money on
their outfits. I'm like, you can't be making money from
the show. And it felt like a real personal, intimate
story and we haven't gotten really these really intimate stories anymore.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
It's all about fighting with.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Each other, which is fun, but they're not coming out
of natural beefs.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Nah made plays. They all love Jealous, Oh my god,
they jealous.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Friend no drift.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
How they all got umbrellas, call them moss and norellas.
In what do you feel your current role now is
in the cultural criticisms space.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
The old guard.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
The guard rails. I feel like we're the guardrails, Like.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
We are a little bit.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yeah, I'm still keeping up with culture, but I'm also
returning to things like writing books to just get our
culture written down in a textual space and finding some
way to still remind people that stuff is important.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I wrote a book about the Harlem Renaissance, and part
of it was because I just kept seeing like really
interesting arguments about little knaves X and who opened the
door for little knas X, And they kept naming white
queer people, and I was like, I am very confused
at the lack of understanding or history that you all
(21:40):
seem to be skipping over, because there was an entire
period called the Harlem Renaissance full of queer people who
y'all are still sampling and making movies about today.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
So like, it's usually never a white person.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
It is usually never a white were person.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
That white person in general, we opened those doors so
it looks in, takes it out and closes the doorback,
and then that's how it.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Happened, right, exactly right. I always talk about it when
it comes to Stonewall. I'm like, yo, sorry to have
to break it to y'all, but if y'all thought white
where people was fighting an NYPD in nineteen sixty nine,
y'all have no.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
They were actually quite happy with keeping non white people
out of their bars, and they're very much happy to
just keep doing what they were doing while trans people
and people of color were being harassed by the police
right and harassed.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
That was likest, We're cool in the bar.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
It didn't happen until finally Stonewall happened, but even then
it was people of color and trans people who were
acting first.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Exactly like I tell people all the time, I'm like, listen,
the only real time where white where people led the
attack against the police was January sixth, So.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
It was there was some queer people there, you know what,
I'll respect the rioters pronouns.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
I don't know. I don't know who. It was probably
a good diverse group.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
It was definitely right doing the laundry.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
How do you feel, though, especially now with the attempts
to ban not just freedom of speech, because it's like
it's this is a much deeper thing than just like
freedom of speech, because like, yeah, and the notion that
like today, these kids can't process books that talk about
(23:41):
identity or talk about sex. When I watched The Golden
Girls every single night, and it was a show from
the eighties that was on regular television that teens kids
could watch that talked about all of these topics. So
to think that we have not progressed from there, that
(24:01):
this particular new group of young adults can't process that,
it's control.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I think older generations have always tried to control what
people can think and read and say, but now it's
a lot easier to do. So it's a lot easier
to convince masses that people are being corrupted by works.
And I think people in power have just gotten savvier
at manipulating people into turning against things. So it's like
(24:28):
it's books that we all read but.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Has been around for every right long time.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
But as Tony Morrison said, she learned one of her
books wasn't allowed in a prison because it could incide
a riot, and people in the authority know that, and
they're like, let's just keep all of that stuff away
from everybody.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Yeah, yeah, what do you feel the role now with
the current just the current state of the world the
United States, what do you feel our role is now?
And I don't even want to say reversing this. I
think reversing this is too complacent. Yeah, right, it's like
too complacent, right, Like why don't allies and burning things
(25:05):
down and having to rebuild? What do you feel our
roles should look like? Because I I don't know.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
Actually, I know we need allies.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
I know we need people like Harvard University who is
not going to Columbia route and it's being like we
will do whatever the fuck.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
We want to and you know, doing with them and
performing like a pact, like.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah, you need people being like no, you're not going
to tell us what to do, because these are institutions
that have been along much longer than a Trump administration
and they'll be around long after these people are dead.
And I think it be who's any institution to not
kowtow to Trump, because then it's you're just setting yourself
up for failure for the future, your institution will crumble.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Unfortunately, as writers, as artists like we are constantly at
the mercy of these institutions and we need these institutions
to continue to support us, I mean to support each other.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah, how do you feel about your role currently? You
have a podcast? Yeah, you've had one.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
You've been doing this for a minute now, yeah, periologically
long time.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Say how do you feel about the fact that we
are starting to at least see more like black queer
people have the ability to have podcasts? And how do
you feel like you've broken that space in a lot
of ways?
Speaker 4 (26:29):
For It's weird.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
It's interesting because I'm always excited when they're more black
queer voices able to share their opinion, et cetera. But
I also feel like podcasting in general is just oversaturated,
like everyone has one. There's so many more voices. But
then there's also too many voices. Unfortunately there's no gatekeeping,
and unfortunately gatekeeping is a good thing. Sometimes everyone does
something and with varying degrees of expertise, care, expertise or care,
(26:56):
then what is the point? It's like, what if everybody
was your pestor at college? Yeah, instead of being a professor.
I'm glad I had my professors. I don't want someone
walking in and just being like I know about English,
I'll teach you how to write and they've never read
a book.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Now, back to my conversation with Ira Madison, the.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Third, is there anything that you're working on in near
future or I'm a fielder.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I'm back now, I'm back in New York focusing on theater.
Actually I started my I started my writing career actually
with theater. I had my master's in theater from and
and it was what led me to want to go
and move into television. But I think that the way
the TV industry is now in Hollywood and postwriters strike
and stuff, theater feels more fun, it feels more dangerous,
it feels more in the moment, and you can also
(28:12):
say whatever you want to say without oversight from a
studio head, a network a David Zoslov who might disappear
your work even after you've made it.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Well, who was that traveled to see That's No White
Star and asking to tweet?
Speaker 4 (28:28):
I was like, that was Mark Platt.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
But yeah, it just feels like the medium where you
can get people invested now, and I'm interested in finding
ways to get younger people into theater again.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Too.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
When I think they are into theater, they're going to
see their younger stars in things they want dangerous interesting works,
things that aren't filtered through algorithms, things that feel original,
And so I think that's a space where I'm just
putting a lot of my focus and energy.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
And that live performance.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
We always like to close out the show. Two things.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
I used to have a column called George is Tired,
and every week I would just write what I was
tired about, whether it.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Was good, bad, or indifferent.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
I am not sure what I am tired about, but
I think if I had to say, I am tired
of Scott Jennings on my timeline, I think that the
CNN panelists Scott Jennings, it makes zero sense to continue
to platform somebody that's stupid, and we're just going to
(29:36):
say it, like, please keep me off the timeline.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
At some point it's actually dumb.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
He can't even believe this, And so it's like I
want us to stop normalizing stupidity and thinking that stupidity
should always have an opinion. So I am tired of
Scott Jennings this week. Is there anything that you are
tired of for the week? I'm tired of hearing about
I try to I tried the space about the baby mamas.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
I'm tired of hearing about and trot tied about everything.
It's honestly, Congress, get rid of him, do something anything.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah the science experiment is over. Yeah we have the results.
You all failed. There will not be a science fair.
Time to let it go.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Final thing.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I always try and live by a different model each year,
Like at the beginning of the year, I adopt like
a personal mantra for myself just to keep me going.
And January first of this year, my mantra will scorched
the earth. I had to just reframe, like there's no
getting these people to understand. And so if I have
to scorch it, if I have to burn a bridge,
I will never walk across again.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Then that's what I have to do. Is there any
words that you're living by for twenty twenty five?
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Leave something behind, beautiful, leave something behind. And a good
way to leave something behind is to tell your story.
And we are so grateful that you continue to tell
your stories the stories of other people and make sure
that our history is archived because it's so important.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
And telling other people's stories is important too, It's so important.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
I think that's important to me.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Now I've told a bit of my story, and I
think that I'm trying to tell some other people's stories.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
And that's what theaters about too.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
It's about writing a story and then other actors and
you tell that story.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
Convey Yeah, conveying that story.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I think it's about community and leaving things behind and
working with community.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yes, yes, Ara, I want to thank you for coming
on my podcast Fighting Words.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Thank you for inspiring me all those years ago.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
I used to watch you as a I was a
newer journalist and getting into it and being able to
watch what you were able to do allowed me to
dream of what I could be able to do.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
And so to even be here.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Now with my own books and my own podcasts, I'm super,
super grateful to even know you.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
Yeah, oh, thank you.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
You don't have to hold onto the pain, to hold
on to the memory.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
This is a quote from five times Grammy Award winning singer, performer,
and gay icon Janet Jackson. Janet was the youngest of
the Jackson family. Her nineteen ninety seven single Together Again
was a tribute to a friend who passed away from HIV.
Janet Jackson was also inducted into the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame in twenty nineteen. Over the past few years,
(32:25):
I have lost several people in my life, from my
grandmother to my older brother, and even most recently, my
six year old cousin Fager, who passed away from childhood cancer.
When I think about them, though, I don't think about
pain anymore. I think about the joy that they brought
to my life in so many other lives. I write
(32:46):
about them because I also know that even if they're
not here in the physical body, as long as I
continue to tell their stories, they will live on forever.
In many ways, when Janet Jackson wrote that song about
her friend, she ensured that the life of her friend
and the lives of so many others that we have lost,
will live on forever. So even though we may feel
pain when we lose people, try to remember to center
(33:08):
yourself in the joy of having them in your life
for the time that you had them. Fighting Words is
(33:32):
a production of iHeart Podcast in partnership with Beth's Case Studios.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
I'm Georgian Johnson.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
This episode was produced by Charlotte morland Is That Can
Produce Us Are Myself and Tweaky p Giguar Song with
Adam Pikes and Brick Cat for Best Case Studios. The
theme song was written composed by Kovas, Banbianna and myself.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Original music by Covas.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
This episode was edited and scored by Max Michael Miller.
Our heart team is Ali Perry and Karl Ketel. Following
rape Fighting Words Wherever you get your podcasts
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