March 18, 2025 • 28 mins
George is joined by New York Times Best-selling YA fiction author Nic Stone. Nic comes on to celebrate the release of her 14th book, Dear Manny, to talk with George about being banned authors, and how to continue creating during a period of heightened censorship and conservative backlash. This week’s queer artist spotlight is on “Amusement” by Victor Jackson.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
There is something incredibly subversive about literature, which is part
of the reason people try to control it. Right.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
That is author Nick Stone, who is truly a good
friend of mine. She has written over ten books, mostly
for young people. Nick Stone has two kids who.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Are half Jewish.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Last year she took them to Poland to learn about
their history, including the history of the Holocaust.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
You see the collecting of literature to be burned the
understanding that much of the ire the vitriol aimed at
Jewish people started with books.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Throughout history and across the globe, books have been at
this center of repression efforts and power struggles. Nick Stone
experienced this herself. Her twenty seventeen young adult novel Dear Martin,
about a black teen's experience with racism and the police,
has been banned by school districts in multiple states.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
What we miss when we talk about book banning is
that it's not actually about the books. It's about knowledge
and about access to information. We don't want people to
have access to the information in these books because the
information in these books challenges what we believe to be
true and right.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Are merged?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Are you merge? Singing in the Heavy Hand?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Dan talks of the world, take us in the branding
spooking guy, you know what the plan is?
Speaker 5 (01:35):
Or became a Latin no one to understand me.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
My name is George M. Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I am the Immy nominated New York Times best selling
author of the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is
also the second most banned book in the United States.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
A show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and who are few to
be silent. Today on the show, author Nick Stone. I
(02:17):
am here today with my guest, my friend, my sister,
Nick Stone.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Who is Nick Stone?
Speaker 5 (02:25):
Wow, that's a big question.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I think in a lot of ways, I'm still figuring
that out, and I don't know that that's a process
that ever ends as of right now. Nick Stone is
a creative who just wants people to be better to
each other and is attempting to use narrative to validate
(02:52):
other people, which I hope then in turn will help
people be able to be kinder to each other.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I love that. I love that. Now.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Was there something that sparked your interest in wanting to
be a creative and write narrative. I know, for me,
it was my hatred of the books that I was
forced to read as a kid. And I think that's
why I was like, I want to write the things
that I wish I had back then.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
What was it for you?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Was there like a writer who you gravitated towards and
was like, oh, I want to be like that.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I had a similar issue to you in that I
didn't see me and anything that I was told I
had to read as a kid. But interestingly enough, it
took me a while to get to the place that
you got to that started you writing, right this idea
that like, well, i'm not seeing what I want to,
let me make it. Like, because I wasn't seeing what
I wanted, I didn't think that people like me did
(03:47):
make it. So it took a minute to realize like, wait, no,
I can make it. And that's interesting because I think
thinking that people like us don't make the kinds of
things we make is a function of not having things
from the people like.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Us, right, Like it's a circle.
Speaker 5 (04:08):
It's like if you can't see yourself, how do you
know what you can be?
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Oh, I don't know why that just hit me like that.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
It made me think about the fact of like the
theft of heroes from some of us, right, Like I
grew up with heroes, but not ones that mirrored my life.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
And then you find out like, oh, there are people
who exist.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
You was doing this.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, you've been doing this, and we have like a
legacy of doing this. And then it's like relearning the
legacy to even know that you can build upon it.
But you can't build upon something you don't know exists.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
That's such an.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Interesting your book, Dear Martin, for those who don't know,
what's a brief synopsis of like what Dear Martin is.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
So lucky for you.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
This came out like seven years ago, and I can
spit out this elevator pitch without even thinking about what
I'm saying. It's about a seventeen year old African American
high school senior who, after attempting to help his girlfriend
get home after a party where she's had too much
to drink, he has a profiling encounter with a white
(05:09):
presenting police officer, and in response, starts a journal of
letters to the late doctor Martin Luther King, Junior to
see how doctor King's teachings hold up now in the
twenty first century. It was catalyzed by a number of
deaths that hit me pretty hard in twenty twelve, in
(05:29):
twenty fourteen, involving unarmed African American boys.
Speaker 5 (05:34):
I have two sons.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
My sons are currently eight and twelve, and my older
son was like five months old when a kid named
Jordan Davis was killed in Jacksonville, Florida, and it just rocked.
It rocked my world, largely because I had just created
and then gone through the process of expelling, if you will,
(05:59):
this entity into the world who occupies a certain body,
you know, like my son is his own person and
he lives in a very specific body. So I really
wanted to explore where are some of these the racist
attitudes come from, you know, people seeing African American boys
(06:22):
and deciding they are threats before it is acknowledged that
they are children. And it's interesting because, like I said,
this book came out seven years ago, yeah, and is
still pretty.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Relevant, extremely relevant, which I don't love.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
I don't love that it's still relevant.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
All Boys Aren't Blue will be five this year, and
it's scary how it's more relevant now than it was.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Yeah. The thing that propelled me to write it.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I would have hoped things would look different, but it's
like the resources we have put into the world are
now even more necessary. Have you felt the need to
change your writing though in a time where extreme censorship
(07:14):
is happening. I know I haven't. It just made me
want to go even harder. But I do talk to
a lot of other writers, authors who are more afraid
of going to those places in the current state of
where we are today. Has any of that affected your writing?
Speaker 5 (07:33):
I mean yes and no.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
No in the sense that, like, I'm not censoring shit
just to keep it a hundred. Yes in the sense
that I am a full believer in the concept of
a trojan horse, like a creative trojan horse, So the
idea of taking a piece of art and delivering what
(07:56):
you want to deliver in a subliminal way. So you
mentioned Dear More and resoundingly banned across the nation resoundingly.
The sequel to that is called Dear Justice, also banned
pretty heavily. Not quite as heavily as as Dear Martin,
but also banned pretty heavily. So I wrote a third one,
and the third one it deals with the same topic,
(08:19):
same topics as the first two books.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
It's just from the perspective of a white boy.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Basically, what I am doing with this book is here,
and let me give it to you in a language
you understand, right, that kind of I like moving that
kind of subterfuge if you will, like being being a
little sneaky with it. And I consider it a creative
challenge because what I will say is, as much as
(08:45):
I am resistant to the idea of changing my delivery,
I'm also fully aware of some of the legislative challenges
that are in play. And I do want the things
that I create to wind up with the children who
need them or with the kids that I created them for.
Speaker 5 (09:05):
So I do think that sometimes you ain't got to
change a whole ste lo.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, but there is a creative a creative challenge for me.
I'm doing like a wolf in sheep's clothing. Really it's
a sheep and wolf's clothing if we're being honest.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yes, yes, because just like you said.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Like, part of the reason we do art is because
people love beautiful things, and it's easier to move a
person cognitively if you can move them emotionally. I want
the art to be something that people want to be
real they want to make real. Now I'm still doing
my thing. Yeah, and also, yes, I'm just putting it.
(09:43):
It's in a different package this time.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Steve Ncanal's the creator of the show Pose. I was
talking to him one time about working on the script
and I was like, they want me to change this
and change this, and he gave me some of the
best advice, which was like, sometimes you can get to
the same place using a different car if it gets
you to what you want to get to. Sometimes you
just need to change the vehicle. Just yeah, right, it's
okay when they send those changes, but if you know
(10:07):
where you gotta go, we got to find a way
to still get this message out and play the game
a little bit.
Speaker 5 (10:13):
Yeah, And it's not even like a message.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
There are things that legislators just don't want young people
engaging with at all. Right, Yes, and so for me,
it's not even about the message necessarily, it's about making
sure that they have the information, Like I want you
to have this information in the first place, so that
you are provoked to ask questions, because the status quo
(10:36):
does not get challenged if nobody's asking any questions. I'm
also really thankful for teachers and librarians who are really
working hard out here to push back against some of
the censorship things happening and book bands, etc. We're just
in a really interesting time and it's impossible to say
(11:00):
like where things are headed.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
So we'll just keep doing our art, keep doing the work.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Yes. Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
This week's Queer Artist Spotlight is Amusement by Victor Jackson.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Here's a short clip.
Speaker 6 (11:32):
Get her mother never had another lover coming down with
the kid down, been around the water and every time
we touched that touched that. I don't watch the game,
but I know I'm winning clutch because I know I'm
made the right decisions. Had it all turned out, I'm
missing the shoe down on one needs baby. So you
know what's the truth, Yeah.
Speaker 7 (11:46):
I don't know what.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
You can listen to the whole song at the end
of the episode. And now back to my conversation with
Nick Stung and the new book is called Dear Manny.
When you go into a new idea or a new book,
do you have a process? Because I always tell everybody
like a book is just a thought. It starts as
(12:10):
a thought. It's either a thought that sticks with you
or a thought that's fleeting, and I was like, if
it's a fleeting thought, then I know it's not time
for me to do that. But if it's a thought,
and then I think about it again and then it
hits me again, I'm like, oh, I'm supposed to do
more with this, but it always starts as a thought.
Do you have a process for like when you get
the thought?
Speaker 5 (12:30):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 8 (12:31):
So.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
I teach writing workshops and stuff.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
So what I teach when I'm teaching writing workshops is
there's a knumonic I only eat raspberries. Is how I
think of my writing process. The I is for inspiration,
and that's the thought, right, so you have this little spark.
From there, I move into organization. Every single project I
do has its own composition notebook, where I drot down
(12:56):
plot points, lines of dialogue, character names, character traits, anything
that comes to mind related to that initial idea, that
initial sparkan inspiration will go into the notebook.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
Eventually I write.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
An outline based on what information I have in the notebook,
and then I move into execution, which is when I
write a draft. And then my last stage is revision,
which I hate, Oh god, I hate it so much.
I just I just came off of revision for a
book that comes out in October that hasn't announced yet.
(13:31):
And you know, this October book tried to kill me,
like I literally typed the last line, burst into tears,
went and vomited. Wow, But yes, I only eat raspberries. Inspiration, organization, execution,
and revision.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I love that. Do you feel more free now, you know,
because you're how many books?
Speaker 6 (13:52):
Then?
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Is it over ten?
Speaker 4 (13:54):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, dear Manny is fourteen? Fourteen books and then there'd
be two more this year. They'll be at sixteen by
the end of the year.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Which means Nick Known is in that rare territory like
most authors never get that far. Do you feel any
more freer now with your writing?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Definitely, I definitely feel a bit more like you're not
gonna tell me what to do. But at the same time, however,
I will say, at the same time, I'm also more
trusting of the editorial process. Right, So, when I first
came in, you're nervous about pushing back, But you also
are nervous about the process in the first place, especially
if you've never gone through it before. Right, But it's like,
(14:35):
over time, if you have good editors, that's a huge
piece here, Like I have had incredible editors. Like writing
is incredibly solitary. Is you and your mind, your computer,
that's it. But as soon if you want somebody else
to read it, it becomes collaborative. You collaborate with readers,
you collaborate with editors, you collaborate with copy editors, you
(14:55):
collaborate with all of these other people. So it's basically
you have this machine that's similar to the music industry.
Life records don't exist without editors, Like you have these
massive groups of people. Right, I'm not an island, but
anytime you're doing something new, it's scary. So I'm moving
into a different age category, and it's for the second time, right,
(15:16):
because like I went from WYI to middle grade. Yeah,
and now I'm adding another category and that was terrifying.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
It is it's different.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
The language is different, the delivery is different, how things
look on the page is different. So in the way, yes,
it's easier, but also like it never gets easier, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yeah, And I always say it never gets easier too,
because like with each book, you gain more lived experience.
That's why I relate to Zor on the Hersonal a lot,
because she has talked about stuff like that, you know,
just saying like, as writer, as we wish we knew everything,
but if we knew everything, we may not write the
next book. And I just saw Tony Morrison when she
(16:10):
was saying like art is bloody. Yes, yes, it's beautiful,
but it's dangerous.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
It's bloody.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
People have been killed for creating art because art is
what changes the world. It's the one thing that will
last when this goes out of style, and this goes
out of style. She's like, writing will never go out
of style. Books will never go out of style. But
it's a dangerous space. And don't let anyone tell you
that what we do is not one of the most
dangerous jobs. Like in the world, how do you process
(16:41):
like what your art has done? Right, there's a duality
of you have these conservatives or whatever the hell who
want to band stuff, don't want kids to know stuff.
But then you also get the messages from the people
that it's shifted. Yeah, and I waited like to sometimes
live at that duality.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Man, It's almost like there's this liminal space and you
don't know where to put your feet, so you just
keep creating like that. That's how I think of it, right,
Like I'm just kind of floating above two very different realities.
On the one hand, the audience members who love the
things that I'm creating, but who are also like under eighteen, right,
(17:20):
and then you have this other side of their parents
or adults who are making decisions on behalf of the
audience members. And you know, in situations like that, it's
like all you can do is just continue to make
your art. Was it Salmon Roschi who was stabbed a
couple of years ago, wasn't.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
It age of a book event? Yes?
Speaker 5 (17:38):
Yeah, so you're right, there's something.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
There is something incredibly subversive about literature, which is part
of the reason people trying to control it.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Right, And now back to my conversation with Nick Stung.
(18:16):
Part of just doing this work has taught me to
sit still and let things happen, like to fight every
cause it is important, but to try and do it
as it's happening. Sometimes it's dangerous too, so sometimes you
have to actually sit still, let some other things happen,
(18:36):
plan your attack, and then go back to it. But
there are just times where I'm like, no, I'm not
going to engage, and when it's time to engage, I
will be fully prepared, of course. But do you find
yourself taking that beat for rest?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Oh, one hundred percent, Like I'm not fighting nothing at
this point, like I at this point, And I say that,
I don't say that flippantly. I think there is something
to be said for the fact that we are fighting.
By continuing to work like me, continuing to make the
things that I make, is my contribution to this fight.
And I am deeply appreciative of the people who are
(19:11):
out here standing against book bands and filing lawsuits and
going to the school board meetings.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Everybody who is engaging in this fight is engaging in
the way that makes the most sense for them, right
And like, as you said, like, I'm not supposed to
do all of it, that's not We're not built like that, right, Oh,
I know I'm not built like that. My resistance is
refusing to be cowed. I think that there's something very
(19:43):
powerful about deciding to thrive even though everything around you
wants you to sit down and wants you to give
up and wants you to quit. Like, Nah, I'm good
I'm just keep writing because at the end of the day,
I still get royalty checks, which means there are people
who are.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
Still buying this stuff. So I'm not about to be
losing my head over here.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
You once said that children are books to be read,
as opposed to stories to be written.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (20:18):
A lot of us forget that we used to be children,
or when we were children, our internal fire was stamped
out so thoroughly that we have forgotten what it was
like to be young. But like I came into the
world with a whole personality, right, Like nobody taught me
my personality.
Speaker 5 (20:36):
Nobody taught me to be fierce.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Nobody taught me to be right exactly, like very sassy,
Like I was wild in right and taking stuff up.
I was a liar. I lied compulsively when I was
a kid, which is part of being a storyteller. So like,
even in these seeds were in there. And I think
that as adults, first, the first thing we need to
(21:01):
do is figure out who we were as children. Yeah, Like,
if you can't remember what it was like to be
a kid, you will not do a great job of
engaging with children.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
Yeah, But knowing who.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
You were as a kid will help you create space
for kids to be who they are when they're children now, right,
trying to see what they're into instead of trying to
force them to be into things Like that's what I mean.
Like a book like okay, you already written, how do
I make sure the commas are in the right place,
that things are spelled correctly, and that who you are
(21:34):
is solid.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Right instead of me trying to write your story right?
Speaker 5 (21:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
I choose a new phrase every year, So my phrase
for twenty twenty five is scorched the Earth. I'm just
in the scorch the earth mentality, with my art, with
my life, I'm.
Speaker 7 (21:55):
Just gonna go.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
You wonna go? Is there any like thing that you're
like living.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
By do as little as possible, like where you are
scorching the earth, I'm a stand and watching burn yep
and write it down so I can put it in
a book.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
Like yeah, And I think, Look, there are years where you.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Go hard, and this is not one of those years
for me, even though from the outside looking in, I'm
sure it looks like it is. Right Like I'm releasing
three books, I'm traveling to speak, I'll do two like
heavy book tours this year whatever, and it looks like
a lot from the outside of the library. I'm chilling
like I'm not over exerting myself in any way on social.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
Media, and it is challenging.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
It is.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
It is challenging to do as little as possible because
I'm a go getter. Yeah, so sometimes just falling back
it's scary, but.
Speaker 5 (23:00):
It's didn't worth while so far. So we just go
see how it go. That's where I'm at. We go
see how this goes.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Everyone want to thank Nick Stone for being here today.
Shout out to her and Danya Elklay and then all
of the black women by a writers who have taken
me under their wing. It's a very amazing community to
be part of and very supportive to all of y'all.
Speaker 5 (23:24):
Y'all are like the best than here. We try, and.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I've learned that people will forget what you said, people
will forget what you did, but people will never forget
how you made them feel. That quote is from the
icon Maya Angelou. As writers and authors, it is our
job and our duty to create books that become windows,
(23:55):
mirrors and sliding glass doors. These books give a reflection
of people in the world that they may not see
in themselves until they read the characters that we create
for them and the characters that we share with them.
They become sliding glass doors because they invite people into
worlds that they may have never experienced or can experience
in the communities in which they live. They become mirrors
(24:18):
because they are great reflections of people who never see
themselves in the world. These books give people feelings, These
books give people the right to see themselves in the world.
And most importantly, these books are healing and now in full.
(24:42):
This is amusement by Victor Jackson. Thanks for listening to
fighting words, and we hope you'll join us for another
round next week.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
You swooed in the mother never had another lover coming
down with the kids, been around the water, and every
time we let I know and win it, nor I
made the repetition had.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
It all turned out.
Speaker 6 (25:02):
I'm missing a shoe that only needs maybe.
Speaker 4 (25:04):
Say you know what the truth.
Speaker 7 (25:05):
I don't know where you've come to do, but I
can't have a good time. Yeah, and I don't know
what you're going to do. I'm about a bound again,
my god, the more about to shut up the broo.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
I don't see no worries. The ain't seeing me?
Speaker 7 (25:26):
Prove it to my bro The moan a bed nights
feeling like I'm saying I didn't know the moon.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Now I see and I don't need no proof. Let's
go the moment you'll fil waiting for. Don't your own
flowing days, day days? What you feelatd for I don't
know your own floor and dang it of me?
Speaker 6 (25:56):
Shake it down, want it don't run up to the ground.
It all right, Babs Spot like the r wild water off,
shake it down, watch went down to the ground, bit off,
baby gus. Spot can tend me to a place under
bid for from the first moment that you stepped through
(26:17):
the dark a supersidic glove in the discovered galaxy when
aligned when.
Speaker 8 (26:25):
Purpose, I don't see no worriest ain't seeing me prove
it to my broad the moon a bed night feeling.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Like I'm saying I didn't know the moon. Now light
and not only no proof, it the moment you're relating for.
Get on him on the.
Speaker 7 (26:51):
Floor and there's there's oh day chelan you relating for.
Get on him.
Speaker 6 (27:00):
Check it up, baby, shuck it down, find it really
down to the ground. Move it all around, Baby, Get
Loose by Sight in the Middle.
Speaker 7 (27:08):
Of the Room.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership
with Best Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are myself and Tweaty
Puchi gar Song with Adam Pinks.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
And Brick Cat for Best Case Studios.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
The theme song was written and composed by kole Vas,
Bambianna and myself. Original music by Kvas. This episode was
edited and mixed by Daniel terrek Our. iHeart team is
Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rake Fighting Words, wherever
you get your podcast
Speaker 8 (28:00):
H
There is something incredibly subversive about literature, which is part
of the reason people try to control it. Right.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
That is author Nick Stone, who is truly a good
friend of mine. She has written over ten books, mostly
for young people. Nick Stone has two kids who.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Are half Jewish.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Last year she took them to Poland to learn about
their history, including the history of the Holocaust.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
You see the collecting of literature to be burned the
understanding that much of the ire the vitriol aimed at
Jewish people started with books.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Throughout history and across the globe, books have been at
this center of repression efforts and power struggles. Nick Stone
experienced this herself. Her twenty seventeen young adult novel Dear Martin,
about a black teen's experience with racism and the police,
has been banned by school districts in multiple states.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
What we miss when we talk about book banning is
that it's not actually about the books. It's about knowledge
and about access to information. We don't want people to
have access to the information in these books because the
information in these books challenges what we believe to be
true and right.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Are merged?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Are you merge? Singing in the Heavy Hand?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Dan talks of the world, take us in the branding
spooking guy, you know what the plan is?
Speaker 5 (01:35):
Or became a Latin no one to understand me.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
My name is George M. Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I am the Immy nominated New York Times best selling
author of the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is
also the second most banned book in the United States.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
A show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and who are few to
be silent. Today on the show, author Nick Stone. I
(02:17):
am here today with my guest, my friend, my sister,
Nick Stone.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Who is Nick Stone?
Speaker 5 (02:25):
Wow, that's a big question.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I think in a lot of ways, I'm still figuring
that out, and I don't know that that's a process
that ever ends as of right now. Nick Stone is
a creative who just wants people to be better to
each other and is attempting to use narrative to validate
(02:52):
other people, which I hope then in turn will help
people be able to be kinder to each other.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I love that. I love that. Now.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Was there something that sparked your interest in wanting to
be a creative and write narrative. I know, for me,
it was my hatred of the books that I was
forced to read as a kid. And I think that's
why I was like, I want to write the things
that I wish I had back then.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
What was it for you?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Was there like a writer who you gravitated towards and
was like, oh, I want to be like that.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I had a similar issue to you in that I
didn't see me and anything that I was told I
had to read as a kid. But interestingly enough, it
took me a while to get to the place that
you got to that started you writing, right this idea
that like, well, i'm not seeing what I want to,
let me make it. Like, because I wasn't seeing what
I wanted, I didn't think that people like me did
(03:47):
make it. So it took a minute to realize like, wait, no,
I can make it. And that's interesting because I think
thinking that people like us don't make the kinds of
things we make is a function of not having things
from the people like.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Us, right, Like it's a circle.
Speaker 5 (04:08):
It's like if you can't see yourself, how do you
know what you can be?
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Oh, I don't know why that just hit me like that.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
It made me think about the fact of like the
theft of heroes from some of us, right, Like I
grew up with heroes, but not ones that mirrored my life.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
And then you find out like, oh, there are people
who exist.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
You was doing this.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, you've been doing this, and we have like a
legacy of doing this. And then it's like relearning the
legacy to even know that you can build upon it.
But you can't build upon something you don't know exists.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
That's such an.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Interesting your book, Dear Martin, for those who don't know,
what's a brief synopsis of like what Dear Martin is.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
So lucky for you.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
This came out like seven years ago, and I can
spit out this elevator pitch without even thinking about what
I'm saying. It's about a seventeen year old African American
high school senior who, after attempting to help his girlfriend
get home after a party where she's had too much
to drink, he has a profiling encounter with a white
(05:09):
presenting police officer, and in response, starts a journal of
letters to the late doctor Martin Luther King, Junior to
see how doctor King's teachings hold up now in the
twenty first century. It was catalyzed by a number of
deaths that hit me pretty hard in twenty twelve, in
(05:29):
twenty fourteen, involving unarmed African American boys.
Speaker 5 (05:34):
I have two sons.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
My sons are currently eight and twelve, and my older
son was like five months old when a kid named
Jordan Davis was killed in Jacksonville, Florida, and it just rocked.
It rocked my world, largely because I had just created
and then gone through the process of expelling, if you will,
(05:59):
this entity into the world who occupies a certain body,
you know, like my son is his own person and
he lives in a very specific body. So I really
wanted to explore where are some of these the racist
attitudes come from, you know, people seeing African American boys
(06:22):
and deciding they are threats before it is acknowledged that
they are children. And it's interesting because, like I said,
this book came out seven years ago, yeah, and is
still pretty.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Relevant, extremely relevant, which I don't love.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
I don't love that it's still relevant.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
All Boys Aren't Blue will be five this year, and
it's scary how it's more relevant now than it was.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Yeah. The thing that propelled me to write it.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I would have hoped things would look different, but it's
like the resources we have put into the world are
now even more necessary. Have you felt the need to
change your writing though in a time where extreme censorship
(07:14):
is happening. I know I haven't. It just made me
want to go even harder. But I do talk to
a lot of other writers, authors who are more afraid
of going to those places in the current state of
where we are today. Has any of that affected your writing?
Speaker 5 (07:33):
I mean yes and no.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
No in the sense that, like, I'm not censoring shit
just to keep it a hundred. Yes in the sense
that I am a full believer in the concept of
a trojan horse, like a creative trojan horse, So the
idea of taking a piece of art and delivering what
(07:56):
you want to deliver in a subliminal way. So you
mentioned Dear More and resoundingly banned across the nation resoundingly.
The sequel to that is called Dear Justice, also banned
pretty heavily. Not quite as heavily as as Dear Martin,
but also banned pretty heavily. So I wrote a third one,
and the third one it deals with the same topic,
(08:19):
same topics as the first two books.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
It's just from the perspective of a white boy.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Basically, what I am doing with this book is here,
and let me give it to you in a language
you understand, right, that kind of I like moving that
kind of subterfuge if you will, like being being a
little sneaky with it. And I consider it a creative
challenge because what I will say is, as much as
(08:45):
I am resistant to the idea of changing my delivery,
I'm also fully aware of some of the legislative challenges
that are in play. And I do want the things
that I create to wind up with the children who
need them or with the kids that I created them for.
Speaker 5 (09:05):
So I do think that sometimes you ain't got to
change a whole ste lo.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, but there is a creative a creative challenge for me.
I'm doing like a wolf in sheep's clothing. Really it's
a sheep and wolf's clothing if we're being honest.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yes, yes, because just like you said.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Like, part of the reason we do art is because
people love beautiful things, and it's easier to move a
person cognitively if you can move them emotionally. I want
the art to be something that people want to be
real they want to make real. Now I'm still doing
my thing. Yeah, and also, yes, I'm just putting it.
(09:43):
It's in a different package this time.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Steve Ncanal's the creator of the show Pose. I was
talking to him one time about working on the script
and I was like, they want me to change this
and change this, and he gave me some of the
best advice, which was like, sometimes you can get to
the same place using a different car if it gets
you to what you want to get to. Sometimes you
just need to change the vehicle. Just yeah, right, it's
okay when they send those changes, but if you know
(10:07):
where you gotta go, we got to find a way
to still get this message out and play the game
a little bit.
Speaker 5 (10:13):
Yeah, And it's not even like a message.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
There are things that legislators just don't want young people
engaging with at all. Right, Yes, and so for me,
it's not even about the message necessarily, it's about making
sure that they have the information, Like I want you
to have this information in the first place, so that
you are provoked to ask questions, because the status quo
(10:36):
does not get challenged if nobody's asking any questions. I'm
also really thankful for teachers and librarians who are really
working hard out here to push back against some of
the censorship things happening and book bands, etc. We're just
in a really interesting time and it's impossible to say
(11:00):
like where things are headed.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
So we'll just keep doing our art, keep doing the work.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Yes. Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
This week's Queer Artist Spotlight is Amusement by Victor Jackson.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Here's a short clip.
Speaker 6 (11:32):
Get her mother never had another lover coming down with
the kid down, been around the water and every time
we touched that touched that. I don't watch the game,
but I know I'm winning clutch because I know I'm
made the right decisions. Had it all turned out, I'm
missing the shoe down on one needs baby. So you
know what's the truth, Yeah.
Speaker 7 (11:46):
I don't know what.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
You can listen to the whole song at the end
of the episode. And now back to my conversation with
Nick Stung and the new book is called Dear Manny.
When you go into a new idea or a new book,
do you have a process? Because I always tell everybody
like a book is just a thought. It starts as
(12:10):
a thought. It's either a thought that sticks with you
or a thought that's fleeting, and I was like, if
it's a fleeting thought, then I know it's not time
for me to do that. But if it's a thought,
and then I think about it again and then it
hits me again, I'm like, oh, I'm supposed to do
more with this, but it always starts as a thought.
Do you have a process for like when you get
the thought?
Speaker 5 (12:30):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 8 (12:31):
So.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
I teach writing workshops and stuff.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
So what I teach when I'm teaching writing workshops is
there's a knumonic I only eat raspberries. Is how I
think of my writing process. The I is for inspiration,
and that's the thought, right, so you have this little spark.
From there, I move into organization. Every single project I
do has its own composition notebook, where I drot down
(12:56):
plot points, lines of dialogue, character names, character traits, anything
that comes to mind related to that initial idea, that
initial sparkan inspiration will go into the notebook.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
Eventually I write.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
An outline based on what information I have in the notebook,
and then I move into execution, which is when I
write a draft. And then my last stage is revision,
which I hate, Oh god, I hate it so much.
I just I just came off of revision for a
book that comes out in October that hasn't announced yet.
(13:31):
And you know, this October book tried to kill me,
like I literally typed the last line, burst into tears,
went and vomited. Wow, But yes, I only eat raspberries. Inspiration, organization, execution,
and revision.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I love that. Do you feel more free now, you know,
because you're how many books?
Speaker 6 (13:52):
Then?
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Is it over ten?
Speaker 4 (13:54):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, dear Manny is fourteen? Fourteen books and then there'd
be two more this year. They'll be at sixteen by
the end of the year.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Which means Nick Known is in that rare territory like
most authors never get that far. Do you feel any
more freer now with your writing?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Definitely, I definitely feel a bit more like you're not
gonna tell me what to do. But at the same time, however,
I will say, at the same time, I'm also more
trusting of the editorial process. Right, So, when I first
came in, you're nervous about pushing back, But you also
are nervous about the process in the first place, especially
if you've never gone through it before. Right, But it's like,
(14:35):
over time, if you have good editors, that's a huge
piece here, Like I have had incredible editors. Like writing
is incredibly solitary. Is you and your mind, your computer,
that's it. But as soon if you want somebody else
to read it, it becomes collaborative. You collaborate with readers,
you collaborate with editors, you collaborate with copy editors, you
(14:55):
collaborate with all of these other people. So it's basically
you have this machine that's similar to the music industry.
Life records don't exist without editors, Like you have these
massive groups of people. Right, I'm not an island, but
anytime you're doing something new, it's scary. So I'm moving
into a different age category, and it's for the second time, right,
(15:16):
because like I went from WYI to middle grade. Yeah,
and now I'm adding another category and that was terrifying.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
It is it's different.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
The language is different, the delivery is different, how things
look on the page is different. So in the way, yes,
it's easier, but also like it never gets easier, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yeah, And I always say it never gets easier too,
because like with each book, you gain more lived experience.
That's why I relate to Zor on the Hersonal a lot,
because she has talked about stuff like that, you know,
just saying like, as writer, as we wish we knew everything,
but if we knew everything, we may not write the
next book. And I just saw Tony Morrison when she
(16:10):
was saying like art is bloody. Yes, yes, it's beautiful,
but it's dangerous.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
It's bloody.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
People have been killed for creating art because art is
what changes the world. It's the one thing that will
last when this goes out of style, and this goes
out of style. She's like, writing will never go out
of style. Books will never go out of style. But
it's a dangerous space. And don't let anyone tell you
that what we do is not one of the most
dangerous jobs. Like in the world, how do you process
(16:41):
like what your art has done? Right, there's a duality
of you have these conservatives or whatever the hell who
want to band stuff, don't want kids to know stuff.
But then you also get the messages from the people
that it's shifted. Yeah, and I waited like to sometimes
live at that duality.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Man, It's almost like there's this liminal space and you
don't know where to put your feet, so you just
keep creating like that. That's how I think of it, right,
Like I'm just kind of floating above two very different realities.
On the one hand, the audience members who love the
things that I'm creating, but who are also like under eighteen, right,
(17:20):
and then you have this other side of their parents
or adults who are making decisions on behalf of the
audience members. And you know, in situations like that, it's
like all you can do is just continue to make
your art. Was it Salmon Roschi who was stabbed a
couple of years ago, wasn't.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
It age of a book event? Yes?
Speaker 5 (17:38):
Yeah, so you're right, there's something.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
There is something incredibly subversive about literature, which is part
of the reason people trying to control it.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Right, And now back to my conversation with Nick Stung.
(18:16):
Part of just doing this work has taught me to
sit still and let things happen, like to fight every
cause it is important, but to try and do it
as it's happening. Sometimes it's dangerous too, so sometimes you
have to actually sit still, let some other things happen,
(18:36):
plan your attack, and then go back to it. But
there are just times where I'm like, no, I'm not
going to engage, and when it's time to engage, I
will be fully prepared, of course. But do you find
yourself taking that beat for rest?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Oh, one hundred percent, Like I'm not fighting nothing at
this point, like I at this point, And I say that,
I don't say that flippantly. I think there is something
to be said for the fact that we are fighting.
By continuing to work like me, continuing to make the
things that I make, is my contribution to this fight.
And I am deeply appreciative of the people who are
(19:11):
out here standing against book bands and filing lawsuits and
going to the school board meetings.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Everybody who is engaging in this fight is engaging in
the way that makes the most sense for them, right
And like, as you said, like, I'm not supposed to
do all of it, that's not We're not built like that, right, Oh,
I know I'm not built like that. My resistance is
refusing to be cowed. I think that there's something very
(19:43):
powerful about deciding to thrive even though everything around you
wants you to sit down and wants you to give
up and wants you to quit. Like, Nah, I'm good
I'm just keep writing because at the end of the day,
I still get royalty checks, which means there are people
who are.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
Still buying this stuff. So I'm not about to be
losing my head over here.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
You once said that children are books to be read,
as opposed to stories to be written.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (20:18):
A lot of us forget that we used to be children,
or when we were children, our internal fire was stamped
out so thoroughly that we have forgotten what it was
like to be young. But like I came into the
world with a whole personality, right, Like nobody taught me
my personality.
Speaker 5 (20:36):
Nobody taught me to be fierce.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Nobody taught me to be right exactly, like very sassy,
Like I was wild in right and taking stuff up.
I was a liar. I lied compulsively when I was
a kid, which is part of being a storyteller. So like,
even in these seeds were in there. And I think
that as adults, first, the first thing we need to
(21:01):
do is figure out who we were as children. Yeah, Like,
if you can't remember what it was like to be
a kid, you will not do a great job of
engaging with children.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
Yeah, But knowing who.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
You were as a kid will help you create space
for kids to be who they are when they're children now, right,
trying to see what they're into instead of trying to
force them to be into things Like that's what I mean.
Like a book like okay, you already written, how do
I make sure the commas are in the right place,
that things are spelled correctly, and that who you are
(21:34):
is solid.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Right instead of me trying to write your story right?
Speaker 5 (21:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
I choose a new phrase every year, So my phrase
for twenty twenty five is scorched the Earth. I'm just
in the scorch the earth mentality, with my art, with
my life, I'm.
Speaker 7 (21:55):
Just gonna go.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
You wonna go? Is there any like thing that you're
like living.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
By do as little as possible, like where you are
scorching the earth, I'm a stand and watching burn yep
and write it down so I can put it in
a book.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
Like yeah, And I think, Look, there are years where you.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Go hard, and this is not one of those years
for me, even though from the outside looking in, I'm
sure it looks like it is. Right Like I'm releasing
three books, I'm traveling to speak, I'll do two like
heavy book tours this year whatever, and it looks like
a lot from the outside of the library. I'm chilling
like I'm not over exerting myself in any way on social.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
Media, and it is challenging.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
It is.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
It is challenging to do as little as possible because
I'm a go getter. Yeah, so sometimes just falling back
it's scary, but.
Speaker 5 (23:00):
It's didn't worth while so far. So we just go
see how it go. That's where I'm at. We go
see how this goes.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Everyone want to thank Nick Stone for being here today.
Shout out to her and Danya Elklay and then all
of the black women by a writers who have taken
me under their wing. It's a very amazing community to
be part of and very supportive to all of y'all.
Speaker 5 (23:24):
Y'all are like the best than here. We try, and.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I've learned that people will forget what you said, people
will forget what you did, but people will never forget
how you made them feel. That quote is from the
icon Maya Angelou. As writers and authors, it is our
job and our duty to create books that become windows,
(23:55):
mirrors and sliding glass doors. These books give a reflection
of people in the world that they may not see
in themselves until they read the characters that we create
for them and the characters that we share with them.
They become sliding glass doors because they invite people into
worlds that they may have never experienced or can experience
in the communities in which they live. They become mirrors
(24:18):
because they are great reflections of people who never see
themselves in the world. These books give people feelings, These
books give people the right to see themselves in the world.
And most importantly, these books are healing and now in full.
(24:42):
This is amusement by Victor Jackson. Thanks for listening to
fighting words, and we hope you'll join us for another
round next week.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
You swooed in the mother never had another lover coming
down with the kids, been around the water, and every
time we let I know and win it, nor I
made the repetition had.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
It all turned out.
Speaker 6 (25:02):
I'm missing a shoe that only needs maybe.
Speaker 4 (25:04):
Say you know what the truth.
Speaker 7 (25:05):
I don't know where you've come to do, but I
can't have a good time. Yeah, and I don't know
what you're going to do. I'm about a bound again,
my god, the more about to shut up the broo.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
I don't see no worries. The ain't seeing me?
Speaker 7 (25:26):
Prove it to my bro The moan a bed nights
feeling like I'm saying I didn't know the moon.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Now I see and I don't need no proof. Let's
go the moment you'll fil waiting for. Don't your own
flowing days, day days? What you feelatd for I don't
know your own floor and dang it of me?
Speaker 6 (25:56):
Shake it down, want it don't run up to the ground.
It all right, Babs Spot like the r wild water off,
shake it down, watch went down to the ground, bit off,
baby gus. Spot can tend me to a place under
bid for from the first moment that you stepped through
(26:17):
the dark a supersidic glove in the discovered galaxy when
aligned when.
Speaker 8 (26:25):
Purpose, I don't see no worriest ain't seeing me prove
it to my broad the moon a bed night feeling.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Like I'm saying I didn't know the moon. Now light
and not only no proof, it the moment you're relating for.
Get on him on the.
Speaker 7 (26:51):
Floor and there's there's oh day chelan you relating for.
Get on him.
Speaker 6 (27:00):
Check it up, baby, shuck it down, find it really
down to the ground. Move it all around, Baby, Get
Loose by Sight in the Middle.
Speaker 7 (27:08):
Of the Room.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership
with Best Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are myself and Tweaty
Puchi gar Song with Adam Pinks.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
And Brick Cat for Best Case Studios.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
The theme song was written and composed by kole Vas,
Bambianna and myself. Original music by Kvas. This episode was
edited and mixed by Daniel terrek Our. iHeart team is
Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rake Fighting Words, wherever
you get your podcast
Speaker 8 (28:00):
H
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