July 8, 2025 • 29 mins
George is joined by Emil Wilbekin, one of the founders and former editor-in-chief of the iconic VIBE magazine. Emil tells George about the storied, late night founding of the magazine, and some of his favorite cover photoshoots from his era at the magazine, like B.I.G and Faith in a convertible and Destiny's Child as the Supremes. Emil also talks to George about how he built Native Son, his organization for Black Queer men.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We are doing the same things that they were doing
on the Harlem renaissances. They were priced, their rights were
taken away, they were in a great depression. There were
all these negative things happening, and they were creating the
most beautiful, vibrant and still relevant Yes art.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
That's a mil Wolbokin.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
In our community, we call him father because he's laid
the groundwork for so much of what's possible for us
as Blackhure people working in media and culture. Emil Wolbekin
is also the founder of Native Son, an organization supporting
black where Men. He is also one of the founders
of the iconic Vibe magazine. I am so excited to
have him in the show.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Today, singing in the heavy handed so with the world
ticket superbranded and a spoken guy. You know what the
plan is? Who became a Latin?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
You know when to see the stand me. My name
is George M.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Johnson.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
I am the New York Times bestselling author of the
book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number one
most challenged.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Book in the United States. This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
A show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and who refuse to be silent.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Today's guest Amil Wilberkin.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
So, a lot of people, including myself, grew up on
the iconic Vibe magazine, which you are one of the
founders of. Yes, so could you just tell us about,
like where that idea even came from, because we are
talking about nineteen ninety three, a really really big booming
era of music, black music, R and B music, specifically
(01:45):
culture shifting, you know, And so how did the idea
of we need a magazine to capture this, Where did.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
That come from? So the great origin story of Vibe
is that it was literally started by a group of friends.
We all worked in magazine publishing. We all loved music.
We were partying and staying out all night. We loved fashion,
we loved everything that was fierce. But most importantly, we
(02:14):
loved being gay and being able to express ourselves. And
we're very clear that gay culture was the epicenter of everything.
Was the inflection point, was the inspiration, was the turn up,
was the blueprint. So we used to hang out, We
used to go to I'll tell you the real story.
(02:34):
We used to go to We would go out every
Saturday night we would go to the sound factory, so
we'd start at ten eighteen or the roxy, then we
would go to the sound factory, and then we would
end up at the wee hours of the morning when
New York was fab and go back to Jonathan Van
(02:54):
Meter's house and we would order breakfast and have coffee
and just kind of all these ideas and what we
saw and who we saw, which house was turning it harder,
and like all these things were happening on the dance floor,
and we were like, we need our own magazine to
catalog all of this energy that's happening. So really important
(03:15):
time and history too, because it's the late eighties early nineties,
so we were coming out of the crack epidemic. We
are in the middle of the AIDS crisis. House music
and safe spaces were really really important for the black
community and the black LGBTQ plus communities, and there was
just a lot of energy going on all these amazing
(03:38):
films and then there was hip hop, right, so we
were like, how does all of this make sense together?
And then Jonathan Van Meter got a call. He's a
white gay journalist, and he got a call to be
the Utter in chief a Vibe. Time Ink and Time
Warner had emerged. They were starting new properties. They went
(03:59):
to Quincy Jones and said, hey, would you like to
start a magazine that was related to music. What would
it be? And he wanted to tap into black music,
specifically hip hop and R and B at the time
was really vibrant as well. And so he and Russell Simmons,
which I just found out recently was part of the
original story. Jesus worked this. I had this idea to
(04:24):
do this magazine. Russell ends up parting ways with Quincy,
Quincy stays on, and Vibe was born. It was a
test issue. Jonathan said, I have all these friends that
work in magazines from Vanity Fair at the time. I
was at Metropolitan Home Magazine. There were people from Seven
Days Magazine, the Village Boys, and so He's like, they said,
(04:48):
as long as they're qualified, we'll interview them and as
long as they're cool, bring them in. So they hired
us all and there we were in nineteen ninety two
as a startup. Because they I had to do a
test issue before they launched the magazine. The other thing
that's interesting is that part of Time KINGK and Time
Warner Martha Stewart Living also came out of that same podcast,
(05:13):
so you see the dichotomy of content.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yes, yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
And from your years at Vibe, like, what were some
of your favorite moments? You went from writing for Vibe
to a pretty powerful positions at Vibe where you were
letting out some of the most iconic Vibe covers that
most of us remember. What was that transition like as
you were working at Vibe and then all of a sudden,
you were like you were mister Vibe, So you were
(05:40):
the Vibe.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
I was the Vibe, right, So it's funny. I started
off writing and editing the news section, so that was
for the test issue. When we launched, I had discovered
Mary J. Bligs was the four one one and turned
everybody onto it at the magazine. So they were like you, like,
you have a good ear for new music. So I
wrote the Mary piece for the very first issue and
(06:05):
then I came back and when we launched, I started
being the next editor. So that would include me finding
you know, Usher Faith Aliah, Brandy Elliott, so finding a
new artist Destiny's Child. Yeah, So people would pitch and
then I would choose who I thought was going to
(06:25):
blow up, and so all of those people blew up.
I broke a lot of those artists in the magazine,
so that really really helped establish me with the younger artists,
but also with the publicists and stuff like that. So
then people trusted my music here. Then I decided I
want to go into fashion, so I switched from music
(06:46):
to fashion, and I started doing these stories that would
take music talent and put them in fashion stories. So
the first story that I got to style with the
magazine was Tyson Beckber when he got his deal with
Rob Laurens. Cover I ever styled a vibe was Biggie
and Faith in the Convertible Iconic, and so then I
(07:07):
kept doing all of that. I did this Hitchcock story
where Biggie was Hitchcock and Foxy Brown was in the
Birds and the boat wearing versace, like all these kind
of really cool creative stories, and then I became editor
in chief. When I became editor in chief, that's when
the iconic covers really start coming. So that's Destiny's Child
as a Supreme.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
The I told you this in person that that is literally.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
The one, right, it's the one. But all those amazing
iconic covers while I was there, So like Mariah Carey,
I mean, you could just I could just keep going
on and on. And so it was really really fun
and exciting time and hip hop because it was the
golden era of hip hop. But it was really great
(07:52):
because it was not just music, it was film, it
was television. Living Single was on. All these amazing films,
you know, set it off. All these great films came
out during that time. So it was a really really
powerful moment in history and culture. And then to be
able to be at the forefront as an out black
gay man, yes, made it even more powerful.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
And so yeah, because that was where I was going
to go. Next was about the experience. Right, you're an
out black gay man top magazine, rivaling the Rolling Stones,
but you're also in an environment, especially back then, where
homophobia is running rapidant, rampant. So what was that like,
what was your experience like knowing you're this out black
(08:47):
a man who also is part of the epicenter of
hip hop and culture at that time, and what was
some of the constraints you may have felt.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Well, the good part was when I came in, I
came in like gay, I'm super black, so people knew that,
and we were kind of treated differently, Like people refer
to Vibe as like the gay magazine and stuff like that.
So there was always this kind of stigma and kind
of homophobia and transphobia around it, right and top of
(09:16):
misogyny against women, So we always kind of just pushed
against that. When I was in fashion, it was easier
because I was in fashion, so it was like, oh, well,
he's gay. Of course he's gay, he's in fashion. When
I became editor in chief was when it got hot,
because at that point it's like, oh wait, the guy
that's going to make all the decisions, who's picking the covers,
(09:39):
who's picking everything, the music, the fashion, the film, everything
in the magazine, the writers is a black gay man.
And so when I got the offer to become editor
in chief, that was my biggest fear. Will it be
violence against me? Will I be safe? You know, this
is a very violent era of hip hop, Like will
(09:59):
I be okay? What I learned through that process was
even within hip hop, even if you're a man, you're
still getting more respect than a woman, which is really crazy.
So even though I was gay, there wasn't really going
to be violence against me the way there was threats
against Danielle Smith, who was the editor before me, as
(10:21):
a woman right who she's written extensively about The New
York Times. So that part was interesting. I always had
this fear of something was going to happen to me. Wow.
But I also knew, as the activists inside of me,
that I needed to stand up and to fight back,
and that I was not going to take anything, and
I was going to be like, I'm gay, I'm not
(10:42):
going back in the closet, this is hip hop. I'm
keeping it real. This is what keeping it real looks
like from me, authenticity. And so it was hard. I mean,
we did a lot of DL stories. We did some
like lesbian aggressive stories. We had LGBTQ folks across the
board in the magazine, but we were always treated like, oh,
(11:04):
y'all are just gay and you all are being funny,
you know what I mean, so double excelling. The source
are the real ones. Y'all are kind of like soft.
But we were the ones that were the hottest. We
had the bigger sales, we had bigger advertisers, and so
I knew in my spirit that I was onto something
and just to hold my ground.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah, and now back to my conversation with the mill
Will again.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
So what was life like after Vibe? Like, when did
you leave Vibes?
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Because I know you, I know you weren't an afropunk
for those, Well know a lot of columnists at afro Punk,
and we have them. We have some really big, big
pieces at Apple Punks and pieces, yeah apropunk. You've also
worked at Giant Magazine.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
So what was like? What was life after Vibe for you?
Speaker 1 (12:08):
So I always tell people when I left Vibe, it
was like the biggest level of my life, having a breakup.
And I never thought that professionally I would be able
to find anything that great again. Right, My dream when
I was growing up was to have my own magazine, right,
and so Vibe was the closest thing to what that
(12:29):
would be. And so I was kind of like lost
for a while. Like I started dabbling into digital because
then digital media was starting to happen. So I was
contributing to AOL and Black Voices in the very beginning,
and then I went to go work with Mark Echo
with his cutting so tailored men's collection. I did not
(12:51):
love it, but I learned so much in that year.
I left because I missed content creation, I missed journalism.
I missed that side of the business. So then I
freelanced and I did stuff with Paper magazine. Then I
went to Giant Magazine, and when I was a Giant magazine,
I was editor in chief. Giant was great because it
(13:11):
was super niche, it was super cool, great writers, great photography,
all the things. While I was there, they were launching
their digital platform, and so I learned all this stuff
about digital and I didn't really want to. I just
wanted to make the magazine, make it pretty great, writing
all the things. And they were like, no, you have
to learn digital. So I have to sit in these meetings.
(13:32):
That led to me being a judge at the National
Magazine Awards because when I was at five, we won
the National Magazine Award for General Excellence. So Angela Burt Murray,
who at the time was editor of Essence, was who
went to Hampton where I went to undergrad got out
to Hampton and she yeah, So she and I would
talk and so she was like, would you ever consider
(13:53):
working at Essence? And I was like, huh. And there
was a part of me that was like, what's a
legacy brand? I was like, it's working with all these
black women, which could be great or not. But there
was a part of me that wanted to be in
the legacy halo of Susan Taylor, but also surrounded by
black women. I just I needed it. I craved it,
(14:15):
and so I went and ran Essence dot Com. Then
they realized I had all the talent connections, so they
moved me back to the magazine and then I started
overseeing social and digital and all of that there. So
that was really great. And then after that I went
to India and I went on an e prey love journey,
(14:36):
which is where the idea of Native Sun really came
into focus. So I came back and I did that
and I launched Native Son in twenty sixteen. Then I
went to go work at Afropunk in twenty eighteen and
I was a chief content officer and that's where we
created all the viral great George laying people out story,
which was amazing, amazing. I was like, you need a
(14:59):
hit her get jobs, yep, And so I did that
and then until COVID hit Yeah, you know, I was
locked in the house and I didn't have insurance at
the time. Mym HIV positive. So I was freaked out
about that and I leaned into Native Sun and that's
where Native Sun's traction really grew because we tripled the
(15:19):
community being in lockdown and just creating content every single day.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Yeah, and I like for people to understand, like, all
of this is a journey, right, there.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Was a lot of learning and journey.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
That went into you deciding to build your own table.
So let's talk about what went into you building your
own table and like the building of Native Son.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
So yeah, So when I came back from India, I
knew I felt when I worked at Essence. I loved Essence,
but I saw how black women were lifting up other
black women and I was like, what I wish I
had that for my community. And that was really one
of the great inspirations for Native Son, because you know,
(16:10):
we can be supportive in pockets, right, we can also
be super competitive, we can be shady. It's a lot
of different things. But I didn't have this feeling of like,
what would it look like if we really joined forces
and came together as family, as brothers, as sons and
really were a force. Because we are a force. So
(16:31):
I did all this research around black gay men and
it was really hard. It was easier to find articles
and interviews, it was harder to find images, and so
the photos would either be like really terrible, bad quality,
not great, or just didn't exist. And so I thought
about that, and so then I did kind of a
(16:53):
listening tour and I went around and I met with
different Native some who I knew, some who I didn't know,
and asked them stories just and you know, talked about
their life experience, if they were out, if they weren't,
if they were positive, you know, all the different things
that would matter to a black as their blackness and
their gayness or queerness. And it just kept pointing me
(17:13):
in the right direction. It was just like do it.
And so I put together a deck. I went to
a party with Bevy Smith and Miss Lawrence in LA.
During the off to Miss Bevy, shout out to Miss Bevy.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Miss Lawrence l.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Yeah, shout out to both. I always sat. Shout out
to Miss Bevy. Miss Bevy was there for me twice.
The day before my grandmother passed away, she was there
with I was out a dinner with her. Oh wow,
and she gave me all this advice. It was like
literally the day before and then she was there the
day after my brother passed away. I didn't know that,
so she was literally there for me in two very
critical moments. And Miss Lawrence has always just been amazing.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
So yeah, so Miss Lawrence is teaching me how to
smoke cigars at this party because I never smoked cigars before.
And they went off twirling into the crowd, and I
ended up smoking the cigar and meeting this guy who
was head of marketing at Cadillac, and so he was like,
I'm such a big fan of yours, what are you
doing next? And I said, well, I'm working on something.
(18:14):
Can I bring it to you when it's faked? And
he was like absolutely, And so about two months later,
I showed up at this Cadillac event, cornered him and
was like, this is not the moment, but I want
to schedule the moment. And then a week later I
went in and I had this deck and I presented
my idea of what Native Son would be and could be,
(18:36):
and he said yes, and so he said, but you
now have to pitch it to General Motors head of diversity.
So came in a few weeks later this amazing black woman, Leslie,
and she was like she asked me this really great question.
She was like native son Richard Writer, James Baldwin, And
(18:56):
I said, Okay, I love you already. It's James Baldwan
who was basically coming for his mentor Richard Wright in
this book. So she got it. And so that was
kind of the beginning. But the real genesis of it
was an intervention for myself. How could I be in
community with other black, gay and queer men and how
(19:17):
could we see each other, mirror each other, support each
other flaws and awe Right, Like, it's not about being
this perfectionsness you know, adnnis type of thing. It's wherever
we are. What we are is the inside part of
our soul. Right because we have the same struggles, we
(19:38):
have the same fears. We also have this like extra
thing where we're fierce, like we will turn something out
out of nothing, like literally turn it out. And we
have that superpower. So what does it look like if
we all channel and plug into the same superpower but
in love and light and make it positive for ourselves
(20:00):
and then for the rest of the world.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Ain't no no better harp You can call me Chris
Well with the brand they are tell us and so
what does the growth in European of discord look.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Like for you? So for me, I mean, like you said,
it's building a table, and so I think it sounds
great and empowering and theory is hard, right because can
the table stand by itself? Do you have enough seats
at the table? Yeah? Have you thought about all the
types of seats that you need at the table? Right?
(20:37):
There's nothing on the table. So how do we put
food on the table? How do we nourish the table?
How do we decorate the table? It's all the stuff
and it's like, we need a new table. We got
to build a new table. And so it's a it's
a constant sense of growth, but it's a constant sense
of being tuned into the community and their needs, their
(20:57):
desires and where they're at and what they're going to
need that maybe they don't know that they need. So
as we continue to grow, I think the needs of
the organization will change and grow. I think one of
the biggest things that was really helpful for me is
when I finally tapped into it needs to have a
media component. We have that power, we have that power
(21:18):
storytelling in our communities. So how do we create platforms
that we amplify and tell those stories. But we're also
then archiving our existence because then young people won't have
to go through, say what I went through trying to
dig and find stories and articles and interviews and photos.
There'll be a digital archive that they can go to.
(21:39):
And then how do we start doing very basic things
where I believe the community needs support? Mental health is
a big challenge, right, you pointed this out. There's so
much shame and stigma still around HIV and AIDS, right,
and then there's issues with crystal meth, there's issues with
other drug use, with suicide. So many very integral parts
(22:02):
of who we are in our existence that we need
to help support, heal and pour into. And I think
that's as I look to the future, those are the
areas that are really heavy on my heart.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
And now back to my conversation with the mill, will
begain the mill has met my mother, My mother will
show up anyway else. But you were very close to
your mother. Yes, I had a wonderful relationship with your mother.
What was that support, like, you know, family, and like
what does that support look like now? What does your
(23:04):
community look like now? That keeps you going in to
be able to hold up such a large table at
this point.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
That's such a great question. So for me growing up,
I was very lucky that my parents. I always thank
them for not harming me and not breaking me right,
breaking my spirit. They always let me be creative, They
always let me be out of the box right. They
always wanted to protect me though, and having that kind
(23:34):
of love. I mean, when my mother passed away, it
was really really difficult for me because she was my
best friend. I spoke to her all the time. She
was always pouring into me, giving me advice and things
like that, and I miss that a lot. I think
Native Son is part of an antidote to that as well.
(23:58):
I think Native Son gives me a sense of community
and home that I needed and craved after my mother's death.
I think that people who have that you can't stop
them right because they know that at their root they
are loved. At their core, they are loved. Whoever they are,
(24:19):
however they show up, they are loved. And so I
think that for Native Son, that's what I wanted to have,
that feeling of love because a lot of us don't
have that. We don't have parents who are accepting, we
don't have churches that are accepting. We don't have neighborhoods
or neighbors or people on the streets that are supportive
(24:44):
and are not loved. And so it's very important that
we create that for ourselves. And I hope that Native
Son gives that sense. I love Father's Day. We show
all these you know, queer fathers right single and coupled
and whatever. It means a lot for folks, or like
(25:06):
Mother's Day, they go up. It's like a lot of
people say that their mothers don't accept them, and then
we see this overwhelming amount of images where they do.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
God, We'll talk to you forever. I mean again, we
talked from the time. I mean like when we get here,
there's always a keyky, you know, all the thing, all
the things. But as we show to a close, we
always do two things. Back in the day, I used
to have a column called Georgia's Tired Where which is
What's which? Was the column before a meal gave me
(25:43):
the column An really gave me free reign to really say.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
What I wanted to say.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Brute out a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
But we just like to ask is there anything It
could be big, small, funny, serious, Is there anything that
a meal will get tired of this week?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
This week? Wow, I am tired of people and power
and their silliness of pimping the world to make money
and capital and be capitalists and not take care of humanity.
That is on my last raggedy nerve.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
That's a good one. Yeah, I agree. Look, I don't
even have.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
To give my own, because I think my own was
in the It has become like we live in an
episode of Family Guy, and it's like Peter Griffin is
running the country, right, and this is what happens when
when you let Peter Griffin run the country. And the
final thing is I like when people leave us with
good quotes, words to live by. There are certain quotes
(26:44):
I go to when I'm grieving, certain quotes I go
to when I'm happy, Certain quotes I go to to
remind me to count it all joy as simple as
that quote. Is there any words you want to leave
for our listeners to live by?
Speaker 1 (26:56):
The quote that has been on my spirit preparing for this,
and even while you were speaking, is the James Wadwin quote.
The place in which I will fit will not exist
until I make it.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
That's the one that's the one, that's the one, and
it reminds me of my favorite quote, Tony Morrison's if
there's a book you want to read and it hasn't
been written yet, then you must write it. That's right,
because that's what it's That's what it all boils down to.
At the end of the day, art is not safe.
Creation of art is not safe, and art can be
very bloody, as Tony Morrison said, and art is the
thing that fights fascism, as she has stated. If they
(27:34):
can get rid of art, that's when you pretty much
can lose everything. So the artists are the biggest line
of defense we have, and so we're grateful for you, Amil,
who has been curating this art for decades now and
continuing to push through these things, even though, like as
you said, even you're talking about back in two thousand,
you were fearing your life and it never stopped you
(27:56):
and you were still continuing to build a platform of
art and artists.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
So thank you, Thank you. George. Yes, I love us.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
The truth is everything counts.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Everything, everything we do and everything we say, everything helps
or hurts, everything adds to or takes away from someone else.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
That's a quote from County Colin.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
He was one of the pioneers as a poet during
the Harlem Renaissance. Counte was a queer man, but was
also married to W. E. B. Du Boy's daughter, Yalandi.
One day he found the courage to be his true
self and wrote a letter to du Boys telling him
he was in love with a man. Later on in life,
County Will become a tenth grade teacher. While teaching English
(28:51):
in the tenth grade, he found one student to be
superb and he decided to mentor that student.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
That student was James Baldwin.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership
with Best's Case Studios. I'm Georgia Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. A section producers are Myself and
Tweggy Puchi gar Song with Adam Pinks and Brick Cats
for Best Case Studios. The theme song was written and
composed by kole Vas Bambianna and Myself. Original music by Colevas.
(29:32):
This episode was edited and scored by Max Michael Miller.
Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rape,
Fighting Words, Wherever you get your podcast
We are doing the same things that they were doing
on the Harlem renaissances. They were priced, their rights were
taken away, they were in a great depression. There were
all these negative things happening, and they were creating the
most beautiful, vibrant and still relevant Yes art.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
That's a mil Wolbokin.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
In our community, we call him father because he's laid
the groundwork for so much of what's possible for us
as Blackhure people working in media and culture. Emil Wolbekin
is also the founder of Native Son, an organization supporting
black where Men. He is also one of the founders
of the iconic Vibe magazine. I am so excited to
have him in the show.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Today, singing in the heavy handed so with the world
ticket superbranded and a spoken guy. You know what the
plan is? Who became a Latin?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
You know when to see the stand me. My name
is George M.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Johnson.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
I am the New York Times bestselling author of the
book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number one
most challenged.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Book in the United States. This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
A show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and who refuse to be silent.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Today's guest Amil Wilberkin.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
So, a lot of people, including myself, grew up on
the iconic Vibe magazine, which you are one of the
founders of. Yes, so could you just tell us about,
like where that idea even came from, because we are
talking about nineteen ninety three, a really really big booming
era of music, black music, R and B music, specifically
(01:45):
culture shifting, you know, And so how did the idea
of we need a magazine to capture this, Where did.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
That come from? So the great origin story of Vibe
is that it was literally started by a group of friends.
We all worked in magazine publishing. We all loved music.
We were partying and staying out all night. We loved fashion,
we loved everything that was fierce. But most importantly, we
(02:14):
loved being gay and being able to express ourselves. And
we're very clear that gay culture was the epicenter of everything.
Was the inflection point, was the inspiration, was the turn up,
was the blueprint. So we used to hang out, We
used to go to I'll tell you the real story.
(02:34):
We used to go to We would go out every
Saturday night we would go to the sound factory, so
we'd start at ten eighteen or the roxy, then we
would go to the sound factory, and then we would
end up at the wee hours of the morning when
New York was fab and go back to Jonathan Van
(02:54):
Meter's house and we would order breakfast and have coffee
and just kind of all these ideas and what we
saw and who we saw, which house was turning it harder,
and like all these things were happening on the dance floor,
and we were like, we need our own magazine to
catalog all of this energy that's happening. So really important
(03:15):
time and history too, because it's the late eighties early nineties,
so we were coming out of the crack epidemic. We
are in the middle of the AIDS crisis. House music
and safe spaces were really really important for the black
community and the black LGBTQ plus communities, and there was
just a lot of energy going on all these amazing
(03:38):
films and then there was hip hop, right, so we
were like, how does all of this make sense together?
And then Jonathan Van Meter got a call. He's a
white gay journalist, and he got a call to be
the Utter in chief a Vibe. Time Ink and Time
Warner had emerged. They were starting new properties. They went
(03:59):
to Quincy Jones and said, hey, would you like to
start a magazine that was related to music. What would
it be? And he wanted to tap into black music,
specifically hip hop and R and B at the time
was really vibrant as well. And so he and Russell Simmons,
which I just found out recently was part of the
original story. Jesus worked this. I had this idea to
(04:24):
do this magazine. Russell ends up parting ways with Quincy,
Quincy stays on, and Vibe was born. It was a
test issue. Jonathan said, I have all these friends that
work in magazines from Vanity Fair at the time. I
was at Metropolitan Home Magazine. There were people from Seven
Days Magazine, the Village Boys, and so He's like, they said,
(04:48):
as long as they're qualified, we'll interview them and as
long as they're cool, bring them in. So they hired
us all and there we were in nineteen ninety two
as a startup. Because they I had to do a
test issue before they launched the magazine. The other thing
that's interesting is that part of Time KINGK and Time
Warner Martha Stewart Living also came out of that same podcast,
(05:13):
so you see the dichotomy of content.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yes, yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
And from your years at Vibe, like, what were some
of your favorite moments? You went from writing for Vibe
to a pretty powerful positions at Vibe where you were
letting out some of the most iconic Vibe covers that
most of us remember. What was that transition like as
you were working at Vibe and then all of a sudden,
you were like you were mister Vibe, So you were
(05:40):
the Vibe.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
I was the Vibe, right, So it's funny. I started
off writing and editing the news section, so that was
for the test issue. When we launched, I had discovered
Mary J. Bligs was the four one one and turned
everybody onto it at the magazine. So they were like you, like,
you have a good ear for new music. So I
wrote the Mary piece for the very first issue and
(06:05):
then I came back and when we launched, I started
being the next editor. So that would include me finding
you know, Usher Faith Aliah, Brandy Elliott, so finding a
new artist Destiny's Child. Yeah, So people would pitch and
then I would choose who I thought was going to
(06:25):
blow up, and so all of those people blew up.
I broke a lot of those artists in the magazine,
so that really really helped establish me with the younger artists,
but also with the publicists and stuff like that. So
then people trusted my music here. Then I decided I
want to go into fashion, so I switched from music
(06:46):
to fashion, and I started doing these stories that would
take music talent and put them in fashion stories. So
the first story that I got to style with the
magazine was Tyson Beckber when he got his deal with
Rob Laurens. Cover I ever styled a vibe was Biggie
and Faith in the Convertible Iconic, and so then I
(07:07):
kept doing all of that. I did this Hitchcock story
where Biggie was Hitchcock and Foxy Brown was in the
Birds and the boat wearing versace, like all these kind
of really cool creative stories, and then I became editor
in chief. When I became editor in chief, that's when
the iconic covers really start coming. So that's Destiny's Child
as a Supreme.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
The I told you this in person that that is literally.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
The one, right, it's the one. But all those amazing
iconic covers while I was there, So like Mariah Carey,
I mean, you could just I could just keep going
on and on. And so it was really really fun
and exciting time and hip hop because it was the
golden era of hip hop. But it was really great
(07:52):
because it was not just music, it was film, it
was television. Living Single was on. All these amazing films,
you know, set it off. All these great films came
out during that time. So it was a really really
powerful moment in history and culture. And then to be
able to be at the forefront as an out black
gay man, yes, made it even more powerful.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
And so yeah, because that was where I was going
to go. Next was about the experience. Right, you're an
out black gay man top magazine, rivaling the Rolling Stones,
but you're also in an environment, especially back then, where
homophobia is running rapidant, rampant. So what was that like,
what was your experience like knowing you're this out black
(08:47):
a man who also is part of the epicenter of
hip hop and culture at that time, and what was
some of the constraints you may have felt.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Well, the good part was when I came in, I
came in like gay, I'm super black, so people knew that,
and we were kind of treated differently, Like people refer
to Vibe as like the gay magazine and stuff like that.
So there was always this kind of stigma and kind
of homophobia and transphobia around it, right and top of
(09:16):
misogyny against women, So we always kind of just pushed
against that. When I was in fashion, it was easier
because I was in fashion, so it was like, oh, well,
he's gay. Of course he's gay, he's in fashion. When
I became editor in chief was when it got hot,
because at that point it's like, oh wait, the guy
that's going to make all the decisions, who's picking the covers,
(09:39):
who's picking everything, the music, the fashion, the film, everything
in the magazine, the writers is a black gay man.
And so when I got the offer to become editor
in chief, that was my biggest fear. Will it be
violence against me? Will I be safe? You know, this
is a very violent era of hip hop, Like will
(09:59):
I be okay? What I learned through that process was
even within hip hop, even if you're a man, you're
still getting more respect than a woman, which is really crazy.
So even though I was gay, there wasn't really going
to be violence against me the way there was threats
against Danielle Smith, who was the editor before me, as
(10:21):
a woman right who she's written extensively about The New
York Times. So that part was interesting. I always had
this fear of something was going to happen to me. Wow.
But I also knew, as the activists inside of me,
that I needed to stand up and to fight back,
and that I was not going to take anything, and
I was going to be like, I'm gay, I'm not
(10:42):
going back in the closet, this is hip hop. I'm
keeping it real. This is what keeping it real looks
like from me, authenticity. And so it was hard. I mean,
we did a lot of DL stories. We did some
like lesbian aggressive stories. We had LGBTQ folks across the
board in the magazine, but we were always treated like, oh,
(11:04):
y'all are just gay and you all are being funny,
you know what I mean, so double excelling. The source
are the real ones. Y'all are kind of like soft.
But we were the ones that were the hottest. We
had the bigger sales, we had bigger advertisers, and so
I knew in my spirit that I was onto something
and just to hold my ground.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah, and now back to my conversation with the mill
Will again.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
So what was life like after Vibe? Like, when did
you leave Vibes?
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Because I know you, I know you weren't an afropunk
for those, Well know a lot of columnists at afro Punk,
and we have them. We have some really big, big
pieces at Apple Punks and pieces, yeah apropunk. You've also
worked at Giant Magazine.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
So what was like? What was life after Vibe for you?
Speaker 1 (12:08):
So I always tell people when I left Vibe, it
was like the biggest level of my life, having a breakup.
And I never thought that professionally I would be able
to find anything that great again. Right, My dream when
I was growing up was to have my own magazine, right,
and so Vibe was the closest thing to what that
(12:29):
would be. And so I was kind of like lost
for a while. Like I started dabbling into digital because
then digital media was starting to happen. So I was
contributing to AOL and Black Voices in the very beginning,
and then I went to go work with Mark Echo
with his cutting so tailored men's collection. I did not
(12:51):
love it, but I learned so much in that year.
I left because I missed content creation, I missed journalism.
I missed that side of the business. So then I
freelanced and I did stuff with Paper magazine. Then I
went to Giant Magazine, and when I was a Giant magazine,
I was editor in chief. Giant was great because it
(13:11):
was super niche, it was super cool, great writers, great photography,
all the things. While I was there, they were launching
their digital platform, and so I learned all this stuff
about digital and I didn't really want to. I just
wanted to make the magazine, make it pretty great, writing
all the things. And they were like, no, you have
to learn digital. So I have to sit in these meetings.
(13:32):
That led to me being a judge at the National
Magazine Awards because when I was at five, we won
the National Magazine Award for General Excellence. So Angela Burt Murray,
who at the time was editor of Essence, was who
went to Hampton where I went to undergrad got out
to Hampton and she yeah, So she and I would
talk and so she was like, would you ever consider
(13:53):
working at Essence? And I was like, huh. And there
was a part of me that was like, what's a
legacy brand? I was like, it's working with all these
black women, which could be great or not. But there
was a part of me that wanted to be in
the legacy halo of Susan Taylor, but also surrounded by
black women. I just I needed it. I craved it,
(14:15):
and so I went and ran Essence dot Com. Then
they realized I had all the talent connections, so they
moved me back to the magazine and then I started
overseeing social and digital and all of that there. So
that was really great. And then after that I went
to India and I went on an e prey love journey,
(14:36):
which is where the idea of Native Sun really came
into focus. So I came back and I did that
and I launched Native Son in twenty sixteen. Then I
went to go work at Afropunk in twenty eighteen and
I was a chief content officer and that's where we
created all the viral great George laying people out story,
which was amazing, amazing. I was like, you need a
(14:59):
hit her get jobs, yep, And so I did that
and then until COVID hit Yeah, you know, I was
locked in the house and I didn't have insurance at
the time. Mym HIV positive. So I was freaked out
about that and I leaned into Native Sun and that's
where Native Sun's traction really grew because we tripled the
(15:19):
community being in lockdown and just creating content every single day.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Yeah, and I like for people to understand, like, all
of this is a journey, right, there.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Was a lot of learning and journey.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
That went into you deciding to build your own table.
So let's talk about what went into you building your
own table and like the building of Native Son.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
So yeah, So when I came back from India, I
knew I felt when I worked at Essence. I loved Essence,
but I saw how black women were lifting up other
black women and I was like, what I wish I
had that for my community. And that was really one
of the great inspirations for Native Son, because you know,
(16:10):
we can be supportive in pockets, right, we can also
be super competitive, we can be shady. It's a lot
of different things. But I didn't have this feeling of like,
what would it look like if we really joined forces
and came together as family, as brothers, as sons and
really were a force. Because we are a force. So
(16:31):
I did all this research around black gay men and
it was really hard. It was easier to find articles
and interviews, it was harder to find images, and so
the photos would either be like really terrible, bad quality,
not great, or just didn't exist. And so I thought
about that, and so then I did kind of a
(16:53):
listening tour and I went around and I met with
different Native some who I knew, some who I didn't know,
and asked them stories just and you know, talked about
their life experience, if they were out, if they weren't,
if they were positive, you know, all the different things
that would matter to a black as their blackness and
their gayness or queerness. And it just kept pointing me
(17:13):
in the right direction. It was just like do it.
And so I put together a deck. I went to
a party with Bevy Smith and Miss Lawrence in LA.
During the off to Miss Bevy, shout out to Miss Bevy.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Miss Lawrence l.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Yeah, shout out to both. I always sat. Shout out
to Miss Bevy. Miss Bevy was there for me twice.
The day before my grandmother passed away, she was there
with I was out a dinner with her. Oh wow,
and she gave me all this advice. It was like
literally the day before and then she was there the
day after my brother passed away. I didn't know that,
so she was literally there for me in two very
critical moments. And Miss Lawrence has always just been amazing.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
So yeah, so Miss Lawrence is teaching me how to
smoke cigars at this party because I never smoked cigars before.
And they went off twirling into the crowd, and I
ended up smoking the cigar and meeting this guy who
was head of marketing at Cadillac, and so he was like,
I'm such a big fan of yours, what are you
doing next? And I said, well, I'm working on something.
(18:14):
Can I bring it to you when it's faked? And
he was like absolutely, And so about two months later,
I showed up at this Cadillac event, cornered him and
was like, this is not the moment, but I want
to schedule the moment. And then a week later I
went in and I had this deck and I presented
my idea of what Native Son would be and could be,
(18:36):
and he said yes, and so he said, but you
now have to pitch it to General Motors head of diversity.
So came in a few weeks later this amazing black woman, Leslie,
and she was like she asked me this really great question.
She was like native son Richard Writer, James Baldwin, And
(18:56):
I said, Okay, I love you already. It's James Baldwan
who was basically coming for his mentor Richard Wright in
this book. So she got it. And so that was
kind of the beginning. But the real genesis of it
was an intervention for myself. How could I be in
community with other black, gay and queer men and how
(19:17):
could we see each other, mirror each other, support each
other flaws and awe Right, Like, it's not about being
this perfectionsness you know, adnnis type of thing. It's wherever
we are. What we are is the inside part of
our soul. Right because we have the same struggles, we
(19:38):
have the same fears. We also have this like extra
thing where we're fierce, like we will turn something out
out of nothing, like literally turn it out. And we
have that superpower. So what does it look like if
we all channel and plug into the same superpower but
in love and light and make it positive for ourselves
(20:00):
and then for the rest of the world.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Ain't no no better harp You can call me Chris
Well with the brand they are tell us and so
what does the growth in European of discord look.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Like for you? So for me, I mean, like you said,
it's building a table, and so I think it sounds
great and empowering and theory is hard, right because can
the table stand by itself? Do you have enough seats
at the table? Yeah? Have you thought about all the
types of seats that you need at the table? Right?
(20:37):
There's nothing on the table. So how do we put
food on the table? How do we nourish the table?
How do we decorate the table? It's all the stuff
and it's like, we need a new table. We got
to build a new table. And so it's a it's
a constant sense of growth, but it's a constant sense
of being tuned into the community and their needs, their
(20:57):
desires and where they're at and what they're going to
need that maybe they don't know that they need. So
as we continue to grow, I think the needs of
the organization will change and grow. I think one of
the biggest things that was really helpful for me is
when I finally tapped into it needs to have a
media component. We have that power, we have that power
(21:18):
storytelling in our communities. So how do we create platforms
that we amplify and tell those stories. But we're also
then archiving our existence because then young people won't have
to go through, say what I went through trying to
dig and find stories and articles and interviews and photos.
There'll be a digital archive that they can go to.
(21:39):
And then how do we start doing very basic things
where I believe the community needs support? Mental health is
a big challenge, right, you pointed this out. There's so
much shame and stigma still around HIV and AIDS, right,
and then there's issues with crystal meth, there's issues with
other drug use, with suicide. So many very integral parts
(22:02):
of who we are in our existence that we need
to help support, heal and pour into. And I think
that's as I look to the future, those are the
areas that are really heavy on my heart.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
And now back to my conversation with the mill, will
begain the mill has met my mother, My mother will
show up anyway else. But you were very close to
your mother. Yes, I had a wonderful relationship with your mother.
What was that support, like, you know, family, and like
what does that support look like now? What does your
(23:04):
community look like now? That keeps you going in to
be able to hold up such a large table at
this point.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
That's such a great question. So for me growing up,
I was very lucky that my parents. I always thank
them for not harming me and not breaking me right,
breaking my spirit. They always let me be creative, They
always let me be out of the box right. They
always wanted to protect me though, and having that kind
(23:34):
of love. I mean, when my mother passed away, it
was really really difficult for me because she was my
best friend. I spoke to her all the time. She
was always pouring into me, giving me advice and things
like that, and I miss that a lot. I think
Native Son is part of an antidote to that as well.
(23:58):
I think Native Son gives me a sense of community
and home that I needed and craved after my mother's death.
I think that people who have that you can't stop
them right because they know that at their root they
are loved. At their core, they are loved. Whoever they are,
(24:19):
however they show up, they are loved. And so I
think that for Native Son, that's what I wanted to have,
that feeling of love because a lot of us don't
have that. We don't have parents who are accepting, we
don't have churches that are accepting. We don't have neighborhoods
or neighbors or people on the streets that are supportive
(24:44):
and are not loved. And so it's very important that
we create that for ourselves. And I hope that Native
Son gives that sense. I love Father's Day. We show
all these you know, queer fathers right single and coupled
and whatever. It means a lot for folks, or like
(25:06):
Mother's Day, they go up. It's like a lot of
people say that their mothers don't accept them, and then
we see this overwhelming amount of images where they do.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
God, We'll talk to you forever. I mean again, we
talked from the time. I mean like when we get here,
there's always a keyky, you know, all the thing, all
the things. But as we show to a close, we
always do two things. Back in the day, I used
to have a column called Georgia's Tired Where which is
What's which? Was the column before a meal gave me
(25:43):
the column An really gave me free reign to really say.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
What I wanted to say.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Brute out a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
But we just like to ask is there anything It
could be big, small, funny, serious, Is there anything that
a meal will get tired of this week?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
This week? Wow, I am tired of people and power
and their silliness of pimping the world to make money
and capital and be capitalists and not take care of humanity.
That is on my last raggedy nerve.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
That's a good one. Yeah, I agree. Look, I don't
even have.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
To give my own, because I think my own was
in the It has become like we live in an
episode of Family Guy, and it's like Peter Griffin is
running the country, right, and this is what happens when
when you let Peter Griffin run the country. And the
final thing is I like when people leave us with
good quotes, words to live by. There are certain quotes
(26:44):
I go to when I'm grieving, certain quotes I go
to when I'm happy, Certain quotes I go to to
remind me to count it all joy as simple as
that quote. Is there any words you want to leave
for our listeners to live by?
Speaker 1 (26:56):
The quote that has been on my spirit preparing for this,
and even while you were speaking, is the James Wadwin quote.
The place in which I will fit will not exist
until I make it.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
That's the one that's the one, that's the one, and
it reminds me of my favorite quote, Tony Morrison's if
there's a book you want to read and it hasn't
been written yet, then you must write it. That's right,
because that's what it's That's what it all boils down to.
At the end of the day, art is not safe.
Creation of art is not safe, and art can be
very bloody, as Tony Morrison said, and art is the
thing that fights fascism, as she has stated. If they
(27:34):
can get rid of art, that's when you pretty much
can lose everything. So the artists are the biggest line
of defense we have, and so we're grateful for you, Amil,
who has been curating this art for decades now and
continuing to push through these things, even though, like as
you said, even you're talking about back in two thousand,
you were fearing your life and it never stopped you
(27:56):
and you were still continuing to build a platform of
art and artists.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
So thank you, Thank you. George. Yes, I love us.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
The truth is everything counts.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Everything, everything we do and everything we say, everything helps
or hurts, everything adds to or takes away from someone else.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
That's a quote from County Colin.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
He was one of the pioneers as a poet during
the Harlem Renaissance. Counte was a queer man, but was
also married to W. E. B. Du Boy's daughter, Yalandi.
One day he found the courage to be his true
self and wrote a letter to du Boys telling him
he was in love with a man. Later on in life,
County Will become a tenth grade teacher. While teaching English
(28:51):
in the tenth grade, he found one student to be
superb and he decided to mentor that student.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
That student was James Baldwin.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership
with Best's Case Studios. I'm Georgia Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. A section producers are Myself and
Tweggy Puchi gar Song with Adam Pinks and Brick Cats
for Best Case Studios. The theme song was written and
composed by kole Vas Bambianna and Myself. Original music by Colevas.
(29:32):
This episode was edited and scored by Max Michael Miller.
Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rape,
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