April 15, 2025 • 38 mins
George is joined by actress, author and legendary Ballroom mother Dominique Jackson. Dominique talks about how playing the role of Elektra on the series Pose changed her life, embracing life as an introvert, and why you should always read the comments. This week's Queer Artist's Spotlight is on “Stop Killing Us” by Neverending Nina.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
The white gay man says, oh, well, I'm a white
gay man. I'm not like you, but at least I'm
not a black gay man. And then the black gay
man turns around and says, oh, I'm a black gay man,
but at least I don't get a drag. And then
the drag queen turns around and says, oh, well, I'm
a drag queen. I could take this off, but what
about those trans people.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
That's Dominique Jackson, a transactress and author from Tobago who
moved to the US when she was fifteen. You might
know her as Electra from the FX series Pose. She's
been an advocate for trans writes for a long time,
and her work and her message has never been more urgent.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I always say to people, just replace the nouns. Instead
of saying transgender, say latino. Instead of saying transgender, say black.
And then you'll start to see, wait, this is.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Me singing in them heavy handed.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Take a sip of brandy spoke the guy who know
what the plan is kam a Latino.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
One doesn't understand me. My name is Georgiam Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I am the New York Times bestselling author of the
book All Boys Are in Blue, which is the number
one most challenged book.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
In the United States. This is Fighting Words, a.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Show where we take you to the front lines of
the culture wars, with the people who are using their
words to make change and.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Who refuse to be silent.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Today on the show, my good friend Dominique Jackson. Hello
everyone listening out there. We are back with another episode
of Fighting Words, and my guest this week is listen.
An icon to me, an, icon to community, and icon
to the world.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Miss Dominique Jackson. Who is Dominique Jackson.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Dominique is a woman from Tobago who has been through
a lot, and I have come to understand myself as
a resilient person, as a person who is not for
the drama, who loves nature, who loves community, who loves
people but don't like them. But I'm really so simple.
(02:17):
Feed me, love me, care for me, support me. I
do the same in return. That's who I am.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Oh I love that. I love that.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Interestingly enough, you have played one of the most dynamic,
complicated characters. I think many of us would agree. Electra
from Pose on Television, who I don't know a bridge the.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Gap for so many of us.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I think about ballroom community, and I just think about
mothering in a sense and how I grew up with
my parents, and my mother is still very very active
in my life. But I still required someone who had
a different understanding of what my queerness was and.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
What my identity was. And I have a ballroom mother.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
And I know so many of us have parents and
also have ballroom parents because there's a different type of
mothering that has to happen. Yeah, so what has it
been like. Let's start with ballroom community. You being a
mother to so many, including my sister Twiggy.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
That's my baby. I'm so proud being a mother. I
didn't realize I was a mother. What happened was because
of my immigration status at the time. I didn't believe
that I was going to go anywhere in life, so
I didn't believe that there would be opportunities. So I
started to see these kids and realize that, wow, I
(03:34):
needed this. So the parents in ballroom were real parents
in the sense that they didn't have these stipulations of
who I should be, or what I should be, or
when I should speak or anything like that. All they
wanted was to care for me. They embraced everything about me.
(03:55):
So when I got to New York and kids were
like calling me like, oh, or my mother, because I
could talk to you, because you understand me. You still
want me to go to school, and I'm like, yeah,
come stay at my place, you know. And it was
from there that I started to gather these kids. And
so for me, I actually had to step in and
say what kind of mother you know, did I need?
(04:16):
And I had to be embracing. I had to deal
with my addictions. I had to deal with my attitude.
I had to become a role model to these young
ones who were looking at me and put me in
this place that I wasn't trying to go to.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Right, Wow, because you are a leader, right and or
like you said, a role model.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
And I read it.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I don't know I read because I read in an
article where you said like you weren't ever looking to
be a leader, you just wanted to live.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, life was hard and many times there was no
let me open the door and pull the others in.
So if I worked at a club, it was about
getting my other sisters who weren't given opportunities to be
able to come in. It was about getting my kids
to come in and dance on stage, so they're not
standing outside having to be fetishized by older men and
(05:06):
stuff like that. Some of my kids were like seventeen
eighteen at the time when I had them in the clubs,
it was my way to be able to protect them.
But no, I didn't feel like I had the credentials
to be a leader, and I felt that leadership came
with a lot of responsibility and you had to really
(05:26):
know and own yourself and understand that in owning yourself
there's room for everyone else.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
You do have an aura about you that's like a presence.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I remember my first time meeting you, which is funny
that I'm thinking about. It was actually my first time,
like in person, meeting Angelica Ross.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
It was in Harlem.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I forgot what the little club is called, but it's downstairs.
I just knew you got to walk downstairs. Yes, it
was one of the only black gay bars, and it
was right before Poe's that come out.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Because I was a journalist and Angelica saw me outside
and ran outside and yelled my name, and so I
came inside and that I found I got to meet you,
and I was just like oh wow, like oh shit,
he wasn't inspecting it, and I just remember you were
just so warm, so gracious. And this was before I
knew what the character you were going to play was
going to be, right, And then to see you on
TV as like this character of Electra, what parts of
(06:17):
Electra are you? And like can you just tell us
about like that experience of like even going into your
audition and getting the role, Like how did that all
come to be?
Speaker 1 (06:25):
So I was quite content and happy in life because
I was having my gender firming surgery and I had
a job. I was director of programs at Destination Tomorrow.
So I was like, this is it for me. Forget
about your dreams of going to television and becoming a model,
(06:47):
because now I'm like forty years old. I'm like, you're
not getting on anyone's runway. Girl. They don't see that, right.
And I was still in the process of getting my
green card. So the green car came around. That was
twenty fifteen. I did strud I felt like, Okay, this
was the fifteen minutes of fame. Thank you very much,
go back to your place and try to have a life.
(07:10):
I was even in the process of adopting. I was
with my husband at the time, and I really wanted
to be a model. I wanted to be a supermodel.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
And.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
So I said, you know what, face reality, that's not
going to happen, but you can work in your community.
So anyway, I was quite happy. And right before my surgery,
I was told I had this audition and I thought
I was auditioning for Ryan Reynolds, and my dad had
to extravaganza and he's like, Ryan Reynolds. You're auditioning for
Ryan Reynolds. He was like, well, okay, go get it. Meanwhile,
(07:42):
he knew that it was Ryan Murphy because he had
been working with them for the year before they started
with casting. So when I saw the sides for the role,
I felt like, wow, this is everything. I immediately went
to Paris Dupree sitting at God Bless Cessols, sitting at
two Potato and having Royal curves and drinking one fifty one,
(08:05):
and we're just there and she's telling me about Dorian
Corey and about hey, this Pandorvis and she's really laying
in and you know, I'm like wow, and other people
are like, why are you sitting here and listening to
this old you know talk, And I'm like, for some reason,
this is interesting. Flash forward twenty years. I'm reading the
sides and I'm like, whoa, this is the energy that
(08:27):
she brought. Continued to do my research, of course, and
I went in and I embodied the charisma, grace and
attitude of Danielle Revlon. I embodied the beauty and the
attitude of Octavia Saint Laurent pepper Or in Montana. And
pepper Or in Montana is a woman who has this
(08:49):
grace and this elegance about her. And so I embodied
all these women. And as my mouth opened on the sides,
I fell this like this rage. I could feel myself
saying to the girls, Oh, you beast, how jad you
look at me like that?
Speaker 5 (09:10):
You know?
Speaker 1 (09:10):
I embodied this feme queen energy that for so long
I had shot away from, you know, because I was like,
I'm not loud, I'm not for the reading, I'm not
for the missed things. The only thing I'm missing is
a real life. So I was there for all that,
you know. But once my mouth opened on those sides,
(09:31):
I felt like the power of all of those women
just coming right behind me. And when I got into
the casting and I read for Alexa fogel. She looked
at me and I was off book, and I thought
I was horrible. She said can you do that again?
And I go okay, and I was like, da da
(09:53):
da da a baby bird and my cheek bones is
highs and she sits back and she says, okay, I'll
call you, and I knew what that meant. So for
me it was listen. I gave it my all, A
real ballroom person got the opportunity to audition for this,
and so I'm putting my best foot forward because when
(10:16):
stuff comes out, I want to be able to say
that they didn't just go find people that were already established,
that they gave opportunity to us. And then I had surgery.
After surgery, I about three weeks after I wasn't supposed
to walk or anything like that, to be moving around
like that or to be using that kind of energy.
And then came the nails along sides and the callback.
(10:40):
I was like a callback, Okay, let's go, let's do it.
You know. Then reality kind of hit me and I
decided that I wasn't going to go. I was like,
you know what, I have everything that I want right here.
Why should I punish myself. Why should I put on heels.
I could pop stitches, I could really hurt myself. And
(11:03):
so I decided that I wasn't going to go. But
I was still doing the signs and I was still
like feeling it. And my husband at the time, my
ex husband, he laughed and I thought he was making
fun of me, and he was like, you sound like
you know what you're doing, but they will never give
that to you. You're not going to You are not
going to become some actress. That's not happening for you.
(11:25):
Your dreams are too far out there. And I was like,
oh wow. And then that morning I got up and
I grabbed that red and black dress and I grabbed
those heels, and it took me about like an hour
and a half to leave the house, but I was
on time. And I walked into the room. It was
(11:45):
Blanco was there. I read with her, Ryan Murphy and
Janet Mark, Stephen Canals, brad Fulcher, and I just gave
it my all off book, gave it my all, and
everything behind me was if you get this, it's going
to be so huge for your community.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And then they called and they said that I had it,
and I.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Was just like, Yeah, this week's queer artist spotlight is
stopped killing us by never ending.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Nina. Here's a short sample.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
I just want to live my life and enjoy here
freezy without word Dad, because of my tr you runner
down the street just to get mine.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
After you are fetish with me.
Speaker 6 (12:43):
You kid me, I am not your fetish.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
You can listen to the whole track at the end
of the episode. And now back to my conversation with
Dominique Jackson. A lot of your clips go viral from
your walking from you know, get the shoes. I always say,
get the shoes, get the baby, get the shoes. So
the first thing is like, how has your life changed
(13:12):
since that role?
Speaker 3 (13:13):
You know?
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Has it afforded you new opportunities that you always wanted?
And get the shoes baby as your tagline, Like where
did that come from? Is that something you have always
said or was it something you came up with?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
No? All right, wait, so one thing at a time,
let me get to so life changed drastically. I was
able to. I was already since two thousand and six,
I was on a path to purchase a home, and
once I got the role of polls, that was able
to make the transition faster from apartment to home, and
(13:47):
the pandemic was part of that reason. Also, so I
now live in the suburbs, quiet little town. I'm not
behind Hollywood gates or anything like that. The only thing
I really wanted was the pool, and I that. But
I have become more aware of who I am and
what happens in my community. So I was getting these
(14:09):
messages from people that I was able to talk to people,
I was able to reach more people, and so that
changed my life because now I also realized that my
journey wasn't alone, and I saw so many people going
through the drama of immigration and the gender affirming surgery
and all of that, all those things that I was
taught that we should keep private and everything like that,
(14:31):
I realized that it was okay to let it out
to be able to help my community. So it changed
me from being this really really secretive person. Now I
do have my personal space, but I have become so
much more aware of me, and I am so thrilled
with me who I am that I'm not ashamed of
anything about me. So what else has changed? I have
(14:54):
a new fiance who really showed up and showed me
that love it really is is something because with my
ex husband, I said to myself, Pole's was going to
take me away from him. He was not ready to deal.
He wanted me more to himself and not with the world.
And that's real and it was it was tough. After
(15:17):
my scene with Chris Maloney, once he heard the script,
we yeah, it wasn't it wasn't gonna last. So what
has changed about me really is that I am not
an extrovert. Because Poles ended in twenty one and I
had so much processing to do in these past years,
(15:40):
and I just realized that I was in a woof
there was a lot happening, and it just made me
realize how strong I am.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Yeah, you know, yeah, I often have to remind people too.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
I think people think I'm an extrovert, and I'm like, well,
extrovert doesn't mean.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Like outside, yeah, because we all have to go outside.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
It's just to be an introvert means like when you
go outside, people sometimes can take away from your energy,
so you have to be introverted or home bases where
you recharge. Whereas extroverted people they go outside to get energy.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
They need that energy from outside, they need it. Yeah,
I'll be so honest with you. I'm getting ready to
do things. When I'm getting ready to do things, there
is anxiety, there's panic. I'm also like borderline of girl phobia. Yes,
so I had to deal with that. I spent about
eight years in my apartment. The only thing I was
able to do is walk my dog.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
And could you let people know what agoraphobia is?
Speaker 6 (16:36):
No?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
I didn't know. I did not because it sounded crazy.
You like, what do you mean You're feared to be outside?
Speaker 5 (16:42):
Right?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Like, what do you mean that you get anxiety to
the point where you can lock yourself in the house
and not want to go outside? That's crazy? Everybody outside?
Come outside? Girl? Yeah, what's your problem? And they didn't
realize what that meant for me because nine to eleven
I was in New York City. Wow, I woke up,
this television screen was blue. I was supposed to be out.
I go through the World Trade Center all that stuff,
(17:04):
and now all those lives were lost and it was
like insane. Then the murders of women in my community
and then no green card, so it's like, what the
hell am I going outside?
Speaker 6 (17:18):
For me?
Speaker 1 (17:18):
And I knew something was wrong when I was out
and a car went by and the muffler went off,
and I was like, duck behind everything was crying shaken,
So I knew it wasn't for me. I would go
to the clubs and drink just so I could be outside,
because the main reason I was at those clubs was
to make my money. That performance was about making my
(17:42):
money so I could survive. So if I had to
make money, I would go outside. If I was not
making money, I'm inside.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
You have given some very powerful speeches over the years,
specifically advocating for transfer rights, LGBTQ rights, immigration, all things
that we are that we are really dealing with today. Yes,
a lot of times, even in activist spaces, there's a
lot of assuming of what a community needs without ever
asking the community what are your needs and so what
(18:17):
do you feel those needs are?
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Well, we need everything right now right and most of all,
we need to be able to feel safe. And since
the inauguration, I went into a bit of depression. And
it wasn't because I felt like a lot of these
executive orders were going to be put into place, but
it was because of the thought like I'm the girl
(18:40):
who stopped dealing with my husband because he thought about
cheating on me and put it out there, you know.
So for me, when I look at these executive orders,
I'm like, you're attacking us right purposely for no reason.
I've never known of trans women to attack women in
(19:01):
bathrooms or in any space. These allegations of criminalizing us
because of their lack of knowledge and understanding. And I
think a lot of that comes from the ideology that
we are male and female opposite instead of a spectrum.
Like I think folks don't understand what a bimodial distribution is.
(19:24):
That's why every guy is not harry and every girl
is not a certain size. You're not losing anything. Actually,
trans women expand the population of women and make it
even more inclusive. A lot of the things that have
these executive orders people don't realize are going to affect
(19:45):
a lot of cisgender women. Yes, many black women have
expressed how they are in close proximity and always being
considered transgender. There was a woman who was murdered a
few months ago because the neighbor thought that she was transgender.
So all of these things are what we need right
(20:08):
now is for people to understand that we are the targets.
Right now, but they're coming for everyone because if you
read through these laws, they affect all of us. DEI
affects all of us.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
And you're right.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
The executive orders are daunting because there was just so
many of them, and we unfortunately live in a country
where a lot of people don't understand the political process
of an executive order, how it's actually not a law,
and they will all get challenged in court and then
it goes to a process and certain see the lawsuits.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
The lawsuits are starting to pop up and they're piling
up and they will continue. But I believe for me
and I think that some will share this, it's that
it's the idea that the person you were just sitting
next to that says to you, oh trans this trans that,
oh you you're my girlfriend didn't really mean that. They
were just trending. They they were just there with you
(21:01):
for the moment, you know, right.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
It's like, even if they know these things may not
become law, it is a signal of hatred and it's
a signal of oppression. And these things not being law
doesn't change the citizens that we have.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
To exist with.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, like you just said, the people who sit next
to us and will clap and cheer and do all
these things until.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
They have permission or allowance exactly to be who they
really are. So we have to continue to be who
we are. Like Alexandra Billings said, right, we've been here,
She's gone through everything since nineteen seventy nine. Right, she's
always used the women's bathroom, and nothing's going to change
like that. I don't think a lot of us fight
(21:46):
for equality. I think we fight to be as privileged
ads and that's where a lot of the issues come in.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
We fight to be as privileged as Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
I oftentimes I'm like, there are a lot of people
in our community who are looking for liberation. They just
want the same power that white men have to do
the same type of oppression to others. Yeah, you know
as a black bear person, you know, as trans we
experienced the words. I remember when they don't say gay
bill came into Florida, and I'm like, okay, like black
community like sis, people like y'all have got to speak
(22:17):
up about this because they're not going to stop at
just us. And then the next thing is slavery had
benefits and then everybody in black community is up and
ans I'm like, well, where did y'all think they were
going next? They weren't going to just get rid of
LGBTQ rights and then not come.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
For yours and to take away HIV and AIDS medication.
That is disgusting. Yes, that is it's like saying okay,
And I remember when I was much younger, I would
see that certain people would get certain medications and others
would get a different type. Right, certain people would be
(22:54):
able to have an insurance that would do certain surgeries
for them and others would not. So again you're being
shown that you're not being looked at as equal like
Latinos and blacks. And no matter where you stand as
a Latino and a black person, a person of color,
you have to realize that no matter where you are
(23:17):
on the tax bracket or whatever, you are still affected
by all of these And like ts Madison said, transgender
people we black too. We're black, we transgender, we're immigrants.
Where all of these things right? And you will kiki
and laugh with us and at us, but you don't
(23:38):
want to be inclusive. We can be entertainment, We can
be your fetish because I guarantee you a lot of
these trans girls out here who were not afforded the
opportunity to have education or to be able to work,
and were still taken care of. They were not taken
care of by other trans people. They were taken care
of by some very powerful white men and some black
(23:58):
men too blacket. So I could never understand how when
I hear people talk so harshly against us. And I
had the experience of back in the day, I dealt
with someone who was a client, and I thought it
was so weird because the things they did. I was like, Yeah,
I can deal with that because you're not touching me,
(24:20):
but wow, really, if your wife found this out, you know, right?
And then I saw a commercial of this person and
they were in politics and they were talking against us,
against And now I'm like, but you're sitting up in
a hotel. The misconception that trans people exist because we
(24:45):
want to have sex with people is disgusting to me, Like,
we are so much more than that. You put us
in that space because that's one of the only ways
you left for us to be able to make money,
and especially for black transgender women too. So you push
drugs onto us, you push all kinds stuff onto us,
accept opportunity and then expect us to thrive, and then
now you try to take all that away from us. Right,
(25:08):
if you decide that this week we get a thousand,
next week we get five thousand, we live by that, right.
Trapped love to fetis sized and trapped.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
That was powerful, you said.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I mean, I knew you was gonna come on here
and say the words that the people needed to hear.
But you know, I feel like every week it comes
up like would you date someone AHIV positive? Would you
date someone transgender? Would you like? They pose these questions
knowing that they want vitriol, and I always sit on
the opposite and like, well, I'm HIV positive, But the
question really is what I date?
Speaker 5 (25:39):
You?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Like?
Speaker 2 (25:40):
How have you all removed the agency from groups of
people because you think you're in a position of power
because you are not.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Do you know how shocked some folks are when you
tell them no, It's like, what do you mean?
Speaker 7 (25:55):
No?
Speaker 5 (25:56):
What?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
How is someone like you gonna turn me down? You know?
And this also speaks to people not understanding what love
is or having any comprehension of trying to get to it.
And it's sad that we had that kind of experience
back in the day. And then it shifted because of patriarchy,
because men loved their women, but they loved them and
(26:20):
oppressed them at the same time because of what the
world was saying to do. And here we are, instead
of seeing that that person that's HIV positive still is
a force to be reckoned with, that can be loved,
that can provide love, we're going after these transactional relationships
and then getting upset about it, like allow your heart,
(26:42):
and this is one of the things that changed. I
had to allow my heart to accept love and understand
that if it wasn't going to work, it was just
another lesson. It's scary, yes, because I come from love
that was traumatizing at times. I know and hear of
all these horrible experiences that women have faced. But I
(27:05):
had to step into an individual space to comprehend the
individual specific love that I was receiving. Was he doing
the things that made my heart jump? Was he doing
the things that made me feel safe and loved? And
he was? So everything else is just something that we
(27:28):
would have to work through.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
And now back to my conversation with Dominique Jackson, So
everybody listening. We were in Atlanta and me and Dominique
were filming a campaign of HV together and it was
right at the height of the book bands and I
was struggling with all of the things I was being
called online, the pedophile and all of these things. And
(27:58):
I was telling her how I just stopped looking at
what people were saying, and she was adamant, like, absolutely not.
You need to read the comments, because if you don't
read the comments, there are always going to be some
good comments in there that you'll miss, and those are
the people that you need to really focus on that
there are still good people in the world who are
supporting you and who are championing you, but you'll miss
them if.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
You don't ever read any of the comments.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
And so just if you want to just share your
wisdom or why, you should read the comments.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
So when you see negativity, it's sometimes it's like we're
drawn into it and we internalize it, personalized it, we
believe it about ourselves, and we shouldn't do that. But
in between all of that, there are those people that
are saying, you're my champion, you inspire me, you're my hero.
And so I started to stop focusing on the negative
comments because they would really draw me in and I
(28:49):
got to that place where I too did not want
to read the comments, and I missed messages, and months
later I went through them and so a whey, I
missed messages where people were really crying out, where they
really needed help, and because of some stupid comment that
someone that did not know me, that actually didn't have
the bravery to actually face me. It's usually people that
(29:12):
are hiding behind something they have no profile picture. So
I learned that we miss out, and I didn't want
to miss out, even though it hurt. I knew that
reading those tough comments would prepare me. And then it
also taught me something else too. What they say about
me in those comments is a reflection of what they
are feeling, what they're going through, their inability to feel
(29:32):
anything right, And so I pity those people. Now, yes,
it still rocks me a little bit when I read
some of those comments, like oh you got to die
and all that kind of stuff. But then right below
that is the comment that says thank you for all
the work that you do. The right below that is
the comment that says you're beautiful. Right below that is
the comment that says, I read your book. I'm from Tobago,
(29:52):
and I'm trends and I'm trying to get medication and stuff.
So reading your comments is important. It can be tough.
We can internalize it and it will hurt. But remember
we're out here for a reason, for a purpose, and
so therefore we're not always going to be liked. We're
not always going to get the reaction that we want,
so we have to prepare ourselves for both, but focus
(30:15):
on the positive.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
You mentioned your book. It's called The Transsexual from Tobago.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yes, I'm in the process of kind of rewriting because
I do want to republish.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yes, and this is you telling your story.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yes, this is my entire story, the whole truth of me.
The Transaction from Tobago. I think it is still available
on Amazon, the revised edition. But I ended that in
two thousand and fourteen. Now I have ten years to
add to it. Yes, and I went through those quickly.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
No, it's why I'm in the process of getting ready
to write the sequel to All Boys on Blue. And
so I get it because it's like, thank you, but
it's like you don't realize how much time passed the
last time you wrote something. I think I ended the
book around like twenty one, twenty two years old. I'll
be forty this year, so I'm like a lot more
to talk about.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yeah, see, that's where I'm at. And sometimes when I
started writing, I was like, oh, you know what, I
don't even want to go back there. You know, It's
like I don't want I don't want to go back there.
And then it's like, Okay, revisit it, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
So something I like to do when we're about to
close out the show, I just like this. It's called
the George's Tired segment. You know, I'm not sure what
I'm tired of this week. It's just so much going on.
But I guess I'm tired of executive orders. I'm like
sick to death of executive orders because it's just like,
I agree, it's a very interesting political tool that the
(31:55):
country has had established first centuries, I guess at this point,
but it's just created so much chaos.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
And confusion throughout the United States.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
So fast, listen, George, I so concur with you because
hear what. I have never seen a pen. Just before
this happened, I was just having conversations with people, like
people don't use pens, anymore, what's the thing? And here
look what happened. I should have never said anything right
and here he comes with the pen, just the pend.
It's crazy. Yeah, I'm tired of executive orders? How many
(32:25):
did he do? Like two hundred?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
It feels like I think when the first day height
is seventy eight and I was like, we didn't even
know what he was signing at some point and I
was like, this is actually lunacy.
Speaker 5 (32:37):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
To close out the show, I was like for the
guests to leave everyone with what is their inspirational quote
or like their thing that they're going to live by
in twenty twenty five? So what is Dominie Jackson's like
quote to self for twenty twenty five?
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I am in control of how I respond. And that's
where I'm at for this year because I have felt
that a lot of time, and I hear people say
you made me mad, and I don't want to say
those words. I don't want to give people that power anymore.
I'm a be still and that's what it is. Be still,
be patient. Sometimes we are looking to find a way
(33:14):
to retaliate instead of find a solution. Yeah, and so
I'm going to be very careful. I'm going to be
mindful of how I respond.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I love that remember everyone listening out there be the solution.
I want to thank you Dominique for just always blessing
us with the words, blessing us with your life. Honestly
be in a reflection in this world you two many people.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I'm just grateful for honestly, the doors you've kicked down
that if even allow me to be in ballroom, you know,
as someone who didn't fully understand it growing up, and
just all of the things.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
You've paid for us.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
So thank you for all the people you have helped
because of the doors you're getting down.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Well, thank you, Thank you, and you too.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Ston Arrow, and it goes real high. Hooray for you.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
That quote is from Dorian Corey, a famous drag queen
in NYC in the nineteen eighties and nineties.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
This quote is very similar to.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Shoot for the moon, even if you miss your land
amongst the stars, and Corey was a star.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
She was also Dominique's Ballroom mother.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Ballroom is said to have started in the late eighteen
hundreds and continues to grow internationally today. After Corey's death,
a dead body was found in her closet of her
supposed lover from twenty five years earlier. It became a
major headline and was even a storyline in the hit
show Pose, which Dominique's character Electra portrayed, and here in
(34:47):
full it stopped killing us by never ending. Nina, who
wrote this song as a direct response to the murder
of two black trans women in New Orleans in twenty seventeen,
China daldupre Gibson and Sierra McKelvin. Thanks for listening to
fighting words, and I hope you'll join us for another
round next week.
Speaker 4 (35:08):
I just want to live my life and enjoy it freezy,
without worry, Dad, because of my trees. I do you
running down in the street just to get mine after
you are finished with me?
Speaker 6 (35:28):
You who kill me? I am not your fetish.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
You're freaking o yup, hoy, what a bit of a men.
Speaker 6 (35:42):
I know you love me? Hey, I know.
Speaker 7 (36:11):
Say their names, say the fames, say the fames.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Say their names.
Speaker 7 (36:23):
As a problem that transit the woman, I'm here to
relate this usage. Stop the acts of violence, discrimination and
murder against my nation, a TransNation full of creatives, intellects
and visionary We fight the good fights each.
Speaker 5 (36:42):
Day we get to see.
Speaker 7 (36:45):
So please, please.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
Please say their names stop killing me.
Speaker 6 (36:57):
Say their names stop.
Speaker 5 (37:34):
Same fighting words.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
It's a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership with Best
Case Studios.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
I'm Jeordian Johnson.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are
Myself and Twiggy Puci Guar Songs with Adam Pinkss and
Brick Cats for Best Case Studios. The theme song was
written and composed by Coole Vas Bambianna and Myself.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Original music by Colevas.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
This episode was edited and scored by Michelle macklum Our.
iHeart Team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rap
Fighting Words Wherever you get your Podcasts
The white gay man says, oh, well, I'm a white
gay man. I'm not like you, but at least I'm
not a black gay man. And then the black gay
man turns around and says, oh, I'm a black gay man,
but at least I don't get a drag. And then
the drag queen turns around and says, oh, well, I'm
a drag queen. I could take this off, but what
about those trans people.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
That's Dominique Jackson, a transactress and author from Tobago who
moved to the US when she was fifteen. You might
know her as Electra from the FX series Pose. She's
been an advocate for trans writes for a long time,
and her work and her message has never been more urgent.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I always say to people, just replace the nouns. Instead
of saying transgender, say latino. Instead of saying transgender, say black.
And then you'll start to see, wait, this is.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Me singing in them heavy handed.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Take a sip of brandy spoke the guy who know
what the plan is kam a Latino.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
One doesn't understand me. My name is Georgiam Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I am the New York Times bestselling author of the
book All Boys Are in Blue, which is the number
one most challenged book.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
In the United States. This is Fighting Words, a.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Show where we take you to the front lines of
the culture wars, with the people who are using their
words to make change and.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Who refuse to be silent.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Today on the show, my good friend Dominique Jackson. Hello
everyone listening out there. We are back with another episode
of Fighting Words, and my guest this week is listen.
An icon to me, an, icon to community, and icon
to the world.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Miss Dominique Jackson. Who is Dominique Jackson.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Dominique is a woman from Tobago who has been through
a lot, and I have come to understand myself as
a resilient person, as a person who is not for
the drama, who loves nature, who loves community, who loves
people but don't like them. But I'm really so simple.
(02:17):
Feed me, love me, care for me, support me. I
do the same in return. That's who I am.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Oh I love that. I love that.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Interestingly enough, you have played one of the most dynamic,
complicated characters. I think many of us would agree. Electra
from Pose on Television, who I don't know a bridge the.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Gap for so many of us.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I think about ballroom community, and I just think about
mothering in a sense and how I grew up with
my parents, and my mother is still very very active
in my life. But I still required someone who had
a different understanding of what my queerness was and.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
What my identity was. And I have a ballroom mother.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
And I know so many of us have parents and
also have ballroom parents because there's a different type of
mothering that has to happen. Yeah, so what has it
been like. Let's start with ballroom community. You being a
mother to so many, including my sister Twiggy.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
That's my baby. I'm so proud being a mother. I
didn't realize I was a mother. What happened was because
of my immigration status at the time. I didn't believe
that I was going to go anywhere in life, so
I didn't believe that there would be opportunities. So I
started to see these kids and realize that, wow, I
(03:34):
needed this. So the parents in ballroom were real parents
in the sense that they didn't have these stipulations of
who I should be, or what I should be, or
when I should speak or anything like that. All they
wanted was to care for me. They embraced everything about me.
(03:55):
So when I got to New York and kids were
like calling me like, oh, or my mother, because I
could talk to you, because you understand me. You still
want me to go to school, and I'm like, yeah,
come stay at my place, you know. And it was
from there that I started to gather these kids. And
so for me, I actually had to step in and
say what kind of mother you know, did I need?
(04:16):
And I had to be embracing. I had to deal
with my addictions. I had to deal with my attitude.
I had to become a role model to these young
ones who were looking at me and put me in
this place that I wasn't trying to go to.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Right, Wow, because you are a leader, right and or
like you said, a role model.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
And I read it.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I don't know I read because I read in an
article where you said like you weren't ever looking to
be a leader, you just wanted to live.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, life was hard and many times there was no
let me open the door and pull the others in.
So if I worked at a club, it was about
getting my other sisters who weren't given opportunities to be
able to come in. It was about getting my kids
to come in and dance on stage, so they're not
standing outside having to be fetishized by older men and
(05:06):
stuff like that. Some of my kids were like seventeen
eighteen at the time when I had them in the clubs,
it was my way to be able to protect them.
But no, I didn't feel like I had the credentials
to be a leader, and I felt that leadership came
with a lot of responsibility and you had to really
(05:26):
know and own yourself and understand that in owning yourself
there's room for everyone else.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
You do have an aura about you that's like a presence.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I remember my first time meeting you, which is funny
that I'm thinking about. It was actually my first time,
like in person, meeting Angelica Ross.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
It was in Harlem.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I forgot what the little club is called, but it's downstairs.
I just knew you got to walk downstairs. Yes, it
was one of the only black gay bars, and it
was right before Poe's that come out.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Because I was a journalist and Angelica saw me outside
and ran outside and yelled my name, and so I
came inside and that I found I got to meet you,
and I was just like oh wow, like oh shit,
he wasn't inspecting it, and I just remember you were
just so warm, so gracious. And this was before I
knew what the character you were going to play was
going to be, right, And then to see you on
TV as like this character of Electra, what parts of
(06:17):
Electra are you? And like can you just tell us
about like that experience of like even going into your
audition and getting the role, Like how did that all
come to be?
Speaker 1 (06:25):
So I was quite content and happy in life because
I was having my gender firming surgery and I had
a job. I was director of programs at Destination Tomorrow.
So I was like, this is it for me. Forget
about your dreams of going to television and becoming a model,
(06:47):
because now I'm like forty years old. I'm like, you're
not getting on anyone's runway. Girl. They don't see that, right.
And I was still in the process of getting my
green card. So the green car came around. That was
twenty fifteen. I did strud I felt like, Okay, this
was the fifteen minutes of fame. Thank you very much,
go back to your place and try to have a life.
(07:10):
I was even in the process of adopting. I was
with my husband at the time, and I really wanted
to be a model. I wanted to be a supermodel.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
And.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
So I said, you know what, face reality, that's not
going to happen, but you can work in your community.
So anyway, I was quite happy. And right before my surgery,
I was told I had this audition and I thought
I was auditioning for Ryan Reynolds, and my dad had
to extravaganza and he's like, Ryan Reynolds. You're auditioning for
Ryan Reynolds. He was like, well, okay, go get it. Meanwhile,
(07:42):
he knew that it was Ryan Murphy because he had
been working with them for the year before they started
with casting. So when I saw the sides for the role,
I felt like, wow, this is everything. I immediately went
to Paris Dupree sitting at God Bless Cessols, sitting at
two Potato and having Royal curves and drinking one fifty one,
(08:05):
and we're just there and she's telling me about Dorian
Corey and about hey, this Pandorvis and she's really laying
in and you know, I'm like wow, and other people
are like, why are you sitting here and listening to
this old you know talk, And I'm like, for some reason,
this is interesting. Flash forward twenty years. I'm reading the
sides and I'm like, whoa, this is the energy that
(08:27):
she brought. Continued to do my research, of course, and
I went in and I embodied the charisma, grace and
attitude of Danielle Revlon. I embodied the beauty and the
attitude of Octavia Saint Laurent pepper Or in Montana. And
pepper Or in Montana is a woman who has this
(08:49):
grace and this elegance about her. And so I embodied
all these women. And as my mouth opened on the sides,
I fell this like this rage. I could feel myself
saying to the girls, Oh, you beast, how jad you
look at me like that?
Speaker 5 (09:10):
You know?
Speaker 1 (09:10):
I embodied this feme queen energy that for so long
I had shot away from, you know, because I was like,
I'm not loud, I'm not for the reading, I'm not
for the missed things. The only thing I'm missing is
a real life. So I was there for all that,
you know. But once my mouth opened on those sides,
(09:31):
I felt like the power of all of those women
just coming right behind me. And when I got into
the casting and I read for Alexa fogel. She looked
at me and I was off book, and I thought
I was horrible. She said can you do that again?
And I go okay, and I was like, da da
(09:53):
da da a baby bird and my cheek bones is
highs and she sits back and she says, okay, I'll
call you, and I knew what that meant. So for
me it was listen. I gave it my all, A
real ballroom person got the opportunity to audition for this,
and so I'm putting my best foot forward because when
(10:16):
stuff comes out, I want to be able to say
that they didn't just go find people that were already established,
that they gave opportunity to us. And then I had surgery.
After surgery, I about three weeks after I wasn't supposed
to walk or anything like that, to be moving around
like that or to be using that kind of energy.
And then came the nails along sides and the callback.
(10:40):
I was like a callback, Okay, let's go, let's do it.
You know. Then reality kind of hit me and I
decided that I wasn't going to go. I was like,
you know what, I have everything that I want right here.
Why should I punish myself. Why should I put on heels.
I could pop stitches, I could really hurt myself. And
(11:03):
so I decided that I wasn't going to go. But
I was still doing the signs and I was still
like feeling it. And my husband at the time, my
ex husband, he laughed and I thought he was making
fun of me, and he was like, you sound like
you know what you're doing, but they will never give
that to you. You're not going to You are not
going to become some actress. That's not happening for you.
(11:25):
Your dreams are too far out there. And I was like,
oh wow. And then that morning I got up and
I grabbed that red and black dress and I grabbed
those heels, and it took me about like an hour
and a half to leave the house, but I was
on time. And I walked into the room. It was
(11:45):
Blanco was there. I read with her, Ryan Murphy and
Janet Mark, Stephen Canals, brad Fulcher, and I just gave
it my all off book, gave it my all, and
everything behind me was if you get this, it's going
to be so huge for your community.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And then they called and they said that I had it,
and I.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Was just like, Yeah, this week's queer artist spotlight is
stopped killing us by never ending.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Nina. Here's a short sample.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
I just want to live my life and enjoy here
freezy without word Dad, because of my tr you runner
down the street just to get mine.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
After you are fetish with me.
Speaker 6 (12:43):
You kid me, I am not your fetish.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
You can listen to the whole track at the end
of the episode. And now back to my conversation with
Dominique Jackson. A lot of your clips go viral from
your walking from you know, get the shoes. I always say,
get the shoes, get the baby, get the shoes. So
the first thing is like, how has your life changed
(13:12):
since that role?
Speaker 3 (13:13):
You know?
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Has it afforded you new opportunities that you always wanted?
And get the shoes baby as your tagline, Like where
did that come from? Is that something you have always
said or was it something you came up with?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
No? All right, wait, so one thing at a time,
let me get to so life changed drastically. I was
able to. I was already since two thousand and six,
I was on a path to purchase a home, and
once I got the role of polls, that was able
to make the transition faster from apartment to home, and
(13:47):
the pandemic was part of that reason. Also, so I
now live in the suburbs, quiet little town. I'm not
behind Hollywood gates or anything like that. The only thing
I really wanted was the pool, and I that. But
I have become more aware of who I am and
what happens in my community. So I was getting these
(14:09):
messages from people that I was able to talk to people,
I was able to reach more people, and so that
changed my life because now I also realized that my
journey wasn't alone, and I saw so many people going
through the drama of immigration and the gender affirming surgery
and all of that, all those things that I was
taught that we should keep private and everything like that,
(14:31):
I realized that it was okay to let it out
to be able to help my community. So it changed
me from being this really really secretive person. Now I
do have my personal space, but I have become so
much more aware of me, and I am so thrilled
with me who I am that I'm not ashamed of
anything about me. So what else has changed? I have
(14:54):
a new fiance who really showed up and showed me
that love it really is is something because with my
ex husband, I said to myself, Pole's was going to
take me away from him. He was not ready to deal.
He wanted me more to himself and not with the world.
And that's real and it was it was tough. After
(15:17):
my scene with Chris Maloney, once he heard the script,
we yeah, it wasn't it wasn't gonna last. So what
has changed about me really is that I am not
an extrovert. Because Poles ended in twenty one and I
had so much processing to do in these past years,
(15:40):
and I just realized that I was in a woof
there was a lot happening, and it just made me
realize how strong I am.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Yeah, you know, yeah, I often have to remind people too.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
I think people think I'm an extrovert, and I'm like, well,
extrovert doesn't mean.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Like outside, yeah, because we all have to go outside.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
It's just to be an introvert means like when you
go outside, people sometimes can take away from your energy,
so you have to be introverted or home bases where
you recharge. Whereas extroverted people they go outside to get energy.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
They need that energy from outside, they need it. Yeah,
I'll be so honest with you. I'm getting ready to
do things. When I'm getting ready to do things, there
is anxiety, there's panic. I'm also like borderline of girl phobia. Yes,
so I had to deal with that. I spent about
eight years in my apartment. The only thing I was
able to do is walk my dog.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
And could you let people know what agoraphobia is?
Speaker 6 (16:36):
No?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
I didn't know. I did not because it sounded crazy.
You like, what do you mean You're feared to be outside?
Speaker 5 (16:42):
Right?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Like, what do you mean that you get anxiety to
the point where you can lock yourself in the house
and not want to go outside? That's crazy? Everybody outside?
Come outside? Girl? Yeah, what's your problem? And they didn't
realize what that meant for me because nine to eleven
I was in New York City. Wow, I woke up,
this television screen was blue. I was supposed to be out.
I go through the World Trade Center all that stuff,
(17:04):
and now all those lives were lost and it was
like insane. Then the murders of women in my community
and then no green card, so it's like, what the
hell am I going outside?
Speaker 6 (17:18):
For me?
Speaker 1 (17:18):
And I knew something was wrong when I was out
and a car went by and the muffler went off,
and I was like, duck behind everything was crying shaken,
So I knew it wasn't for me. I would go
to the clubs and drink just so I could be outside,
because the main reason I was at those clubs was
to make my money. That performance was about making my
(17:42):
money so I could survive. So if I had to
make money, I would go outside. If I was not
making money, I'm inside.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
You have given some very powerful speeches over the years,
specifically advocating for transfer rights, LGBTQ rights, immigration, all things
that we are that we are really dealing with today. Yes,
a lot of times, even in activist spaces, there's a
lot of assuming of what a community needs without ever
asking the community what are your needs and so what
(18:17):
do you feel those needs are?
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Well, we need everything right now right and most of all,
we need to be able to feel safe. And since
the inauguration, I went into a bit of depression. And
it wasn't because I felt like a lot of these
executive orders were going to be put into place, but
it was because of the thought like I'm the girl
(18:40):
who stopped dealing with my husband because he thought about
cheating on me and put it out there, you know.
So for me, when I look at these executive orders,
I'm like, you're attacking us right purposely for no reason.
I've never known of trans women to attack women in
(19:01):
bathrooms or in any space. These allegations of criminalizing us
because of their lack of knowledge and understanding. And I
think a lot of that comes from the ideology that
we are male and female opposite instead of a spectrum.
Like I think folks don't understand what a bimodial distribution is.
(19:24):
That's why every guy is not harry and every girl
is not a certain size. You're not losing anything. Actually,
trans women expand the population of women and make it
even more inclusive. A lot of the things that have
these executive orders people don't realize are going to affect
(19:45):
a lot of cisgender women. Yes, many black women have
expressed how they are in close proximity and always being
considered transgender. There was a woman who was murdered a
few months ago because the neighbor thought that she was transgender.
So all of these things are what we need right
(20:08):
now is for people to understand that we are the targets.
Right now, but they're coming for everyone because if you
read through these laws, they affect all of us. DEI
affects all of us.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
And you're right.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
The executive orders are daunting because there was just so
many of them, and we unfortunately live in a country
where a lot of people don't understand the political process
of an executive order, how it's actually not a law,
and they will all get challenged in court and then
it goes to a process and certain see the lawsuits.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
The lawsuits are starting to pop up and they're piling
up and they will continue. But I believe for me
and I think that some will share this, it's that
it's the idea that the person you were just sitting
next to that says to you, oh trans this trans that,
oh you you're my girlfriend didn't really mean that. They
were just trending. They they were just there with you
(21:01):
for the moment, you know, right.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
It's like, even if they know these things may not
become law, it is a signal of hatred and it's
a signal of oppression. And these things not being law
doesn't change the citizens that we have.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
To exist with.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, like you just said, the people who sit next
to us and will clap and cheer and do all
these things until.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
They have permission or allowance exactly to be who they
really are. So we have to continue to be who
we are. Like Alexandra Billings said, right, we've been here,
She's gone through everything since nineteen seventy nine. Right, she's
always used the women's bathroom, and nothing's going to change
like that. I don't think a lot of us fight
(21:46):
for equality. I think we fight to be as privileged
ads and that's where a lot of the issues come in.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
We fight to be as privileged as Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
I oftentimes I'm like, there are a lot of people
in our community who are looking for liberation. They just
want the same power that white men have to do
the same type of oppression to others. Yeah, you know
as a black bear person, you know, as trans we
experienced the words. I remember when they don't say gay
bill came into Florida, and I'm like, okay, like black
community like sis, people like y'all have got to speak
(22:17):
up about this because they're not going to stop at
just us. And then the next thing is slavery had
benefits and then everybody in black community is up and
ans I'm like, well, where did y'all think they were
going next? They weren't going to just get rid of
LGBTQ rights and then not come.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
For yours and to take away HIV and AIDS medication.
That is disgusting. Yes, that is it's like saying okay,
And I remember when I was much younger, I would
see that certain people would get certain medications and others
would get a different type. Right, certain people would be
(22:54):
able to have an insurance that would do certain surgeries
for them and others would not. So again you're being
shown that you're not being looked at as equal like
Latinos and blacks. And no matter where you stand as
a Latino and a black person, a person of color,
you have to realize that no matter where you are
(23:17):
on the tax bracket or whatever, you are still affected
by all of these And like ts Madison said, transgender
people we black too. We're black, we transgender, we're immigrants.
Where all of these things right? And you will kiki
and laugh with us and at us, but you don't
(23:38):
want to be inclusive. We can be entertainment, We can
be your fetish because I guarantee you a lot of
these trans girls out here who were not afforded the
opportunity to have education or to be able to work,
and were still taken care of. They were not taken
care of by other trans people. They were taken care
of by some very powerful white men and some black
(23:58):
men too blacket. So I could never understand how when
I hear people talk so harshly against us. And I
had the experience of back in the day, I dealt
with someone who was a client, and I thought it
was so weird because the things they did. I was like, Yeah,
I can deal with that because you're not touching me,
(24:20):
but wow, really, if your wife found this out, you know, right?
And then I saw a commercial of this person and
they were in politics and they were talking against us,
against And now I'm like, but you're sitting up in
a hotel. The misconception that trans people exist because we
(24:45):
want to have sex with people is disgusting to me, Like,
we are so much more than that. You put us
in that space because that's one of the only ways
you left for us to be able to make money,
and especially for black transgender women too. So you push
drugs onto us, you push all kinds stuff onto us,
accept opportunity and then expect us to thrive, and then
now you try to take all that away from us. Right,
(25:08):
if you decide that this week we get a thousand,
next week we get five thousand, we live by that, right.
Trapped love to fetis sized and trapped.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
That was powerful, you said.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I mean, I knew you was gonna come on here
and say the words that the people needed to hear.
But you know, I feel like every week it comes
up like would you date someone AHIV positive? Would you
date someone transgender? Would you like? They pose these questions
knowing that they want vitriol, and I always sit on
the opposite and like, well, I'm HIV positive, But the
question really is what I date?
Speaker 5 (25:39):
You?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Like?
Speaker 2 (25:40):
How have you all removed the agency from groups of
people because you think you're in a position of power
because you are not.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Do you know how shocked some folks are when you
tell them no, It's like, what do you mean?
Speaker 7 (25:55):
No?
Speaker 5 (25:56):
What?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
How is someone like you gonna turn me down? You know?
And this also speaks to people not understanding what love
is or having any comprehension of trying to get to it.
And it's sad that we had that kind of experience
back in the day. And then it shifted because of patriarchy,
because men loved their women, but they loved them and
(26:20):
oppressed them at the same time because of what the
world was saying to do. And here we are, instead
of seeing that that person that's HIV positive still is
a force to be reckoned with, that can be loved,
that can provide love, we're going after these transactional relationships
and then getting upset about it, like allow your heart,
(26:42):
and this is one of the things that changed. I
had to allow my heart to accept love and understand
that if it wasn't going to work, it was just
another lesson. It's scary, yes, because I come from love
that was traumatizing at times. I know and hear of
all these horrible experiences that women have faced. But I
(27:05):
had to step into an individual space to comprehend the
individual specific love that I was receiving. Was he doing
the things that made my heart jump? Was he doing
the things that made me feel safe and loved? And
he was? So everything else is just something that we
(27:28):
would have to work through.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
And now back to my conversation with Dominique Jackson, So
everybody listening. We were in Atlanta and me and Dominique
were filming a campaign of HV together and it was
right at the height of the book bands and I
was struggling with all of the things I was being
called online, the pedophile and all of these things. And
(27:58):
I was telling her how I just stopped looking at
what people were saying, and she was adamant, like, absolutely not.
You need to read the comments, because if you don't
read the comments, there are always going to be some
good comments in there that you'll miss, and those are
the people that you need to really focus on that
there are still good people in the world who are
supporting you and who are championing you, but you'll miss
them if.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
You don't ever read any of the comments.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
And so just if you want to just share your
wisdom or why, you should read the comments.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
So when you see negativity, it's sometimes it's like we're
drawn into it and we internalize it, personalized it, we
believe it about ourselves, and we shouldn't do that. But
in between all of that, there are those people that
are saying, you're my champion, you inspire me, you're my hero.
And so I started to stop focusing on the negative
comments because they would really draw me in and I
(28:49):
got to that place where I too did not want
to read the comments, and I missed messages, and months
later I went through them and so a whey, I
missed messages where people were really crying out, where they
really needed help, and because of some stupid comment that
someone that did not know me, that actually didn't have
the bravery to actually face me. It's usually people that
(29:12):
are hiding behind something they have no profile picture. So
I learned that we miss out, and I didn't want
to miss out, even though it hurt. I knew that
reading those tough comments would prepare me. And then it
also taught me something else too. What they say about
me in those comments is a reflection of what they
are feeling, what they're going through, their inability to feel
(29:32):
anything right, And so I pity those people. Now, yes,
it still rocks me a little bit when I read
some of those comments, like oh you got to die
and all that kind of stuff. But then right below
that is the comment that says thank you for all
the work that you do. The right below that is
the comment that says you're beautiful. Right below that is
the comment that says, I read your book. I'm from Tobago,
(29:52):
and I'm trends and I'm trying to get medication and stuff.
So reading your comments is important. It can be tough.
We can internalize it and it will hurt. But remember
we're out here for a reason, for a purpose, and
so therefore we're not always going to be liked. We're
not always going to get the reaction that we want,
so we have to prepare ourselves for both, but focus
(30:15):
on the positive.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
You mentioned your book. It's called The Transsexual from Tobago.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yes, I'm in the process of kind of rewriting because
I do want to republish.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yes, and this is you telling your story.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yes, this is my entire story, the whole truth of me.
The Transaction from Tobago. I think it is still available
on Amazon, the revised edition. But I ended that in
two thousand and fourteen. Now I have ten years to
add to it. Yes, and I went through those quickly.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
No, it's why I'm in the process of getting ready
to write the sequel to All Boys on Blue. And
so I get it because it's like, thank you, but
it's like you don't realize how much time passed the
last time you wrote something. I think I ended the
book around like twenty one, twenty two years old. I'll
be forty this year, so I'm like a lot more
to talk about.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yeah, see, that's where I'm at. And sometimes when I
started writing, I was like, oh, you know what, I
don't even want to go back there. You know, It's
like I don't want I don't want to go back there.
And then it's like, Okay, revisit it, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
So something I like to do when we're about to
close out the show, I just like this. It's called
the George's Tired segment. You know, I'm not sure what
I'm tired of this week. It's just so much going on.
But I guess I'm tired of executive orders. I'm like
sick to death of executive orders because it's just like,
I agree, it's a very interesting political tool that the
(31:55):
country has had established first centuries, I guess at this point,
but it's just created so much chaos.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
And confusion throughout the United States.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
So fast, listen, George, I so concur with you because
hear what. I have never seen a pen. Just before
this happened, I was just having conversations with people, like
people don't use pens, anymore, what's the thing? And here
look what happened. I should have never said anything right
and here he comes with the pen, just the pend.
It's crazy. Yeah, I'm tired of executive orders? How many
(32:25):
did he do? Like two hundred?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
It feels like I think when the first day height
is seventy eight and I was like, we didn't even
know what he was signing at some point and I
was like, this is actually lunacy.
Speaker 5 (32:37):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
To close out the show, I was like for the
guests to leave everyone with what is their inspirational quote
or like their thing that they're going to live by
in twenty twenty five? So what is Dominie Jackson's like
quote to self for twenty twenty five?
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I am in control of how I respond. And that's
where I'm at for this year because I have felt
that a lot of time, and I hear people say
you made me mad, and I don't want to say
those words. I don't want to give people that power anymore.
I'm a be still and that's what it is. Be still,
be patient. Sometimes we are looking to find a way
(33:14):
to retaliate instead of find a solution. Yeah, and so
I'm going to be very careful. I'm going to be
mindful of how I respond.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I love that remember everyone listening out there be the solution.
I want to thank you Dominique for just always blessing
us with the words, blessing us with your life. Honestly
be in a reflection in this world you two many people.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I'm just grateful for honestly, the doors you've kicked down
that if even allow me to be in ballroom, you know,
as someone who didn't fully understand it growing up, and
just all of the things.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
You've paid for us.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
So thank you for all the people you have helped
because of the doors you're getting down.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Well, thank you, Thank you, and you too.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Ston Arrow, and it goes real high. Hooray for you.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
That quote is from Dorian Corey, a famous drag queen
in NYC in the nineteen eighties and nineties.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
This quote is very similar to.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Shoot for the moon, even if you miss your land
amongst the stars, and Corey was a star.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
She was also Dominique's Ballroom mother.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Ballroom is said to have started in the late eighteen
hundreds and continues to grow internationally today. After Corey's death,
a dead body was found in her closet of her
supposed lover from twenty five years earlier. It became a
major headline and was even a storyline in the hit
show Pose, which Dominique's character Electra portrayed, and here in
(34:47):
full it stopped killing us by never ending. Nina, who
wrote this song as a direct response to the murder
of two black trans women in New Orleans in twenty seventeen,
China daldupre Gibson and Sierra McKelvin. Thanks for listening to
fighting words, and I hope you'll join us for another
round next week.
Speaker 4 (35:08):
I just want to live my life and enjoy it freezy,
without worry, Dad, because of my trees. I do you
running down in the street just to get mine after
you are finished with me?
Speaker 6 (35:28):
You who kill me? I am not your fetish.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
You're freaking o yup, hoy, what a bit of a men.
Speaker 6 (35:42):
I know you love me? Hey, I know.
Speaker 7 (36:11):
Say their names, say the fames, say the fames.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Say their names.
Speaker 7 (36:23):
As a problem that transit the woman, I'm here to
relate this usage. Stop the acts of violence, discrimination and
murder against my nation, a TransNation full of creatives, intellects
and visionary We fight the good fights each.
Speaker 5 (36:42):
Day we get to see.
Speaker 7 (36:45):
So please, please.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
Please say their names stop killing me.
Speaker 6 (36:57):
Say their names stop.
Speaker 5 (37:34):
Same fighting words.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
It's a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership with Best
Case Studios.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
I'm Jeordian Johnson.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are
Myself and Twiggy Puci Guar Songs with Adam Pinkss and
Brick Cats for Best Case Studios. The theme song was
written and composed by Coole Vas Bambianna and Myself.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Original music by Colevas.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
This episode was edited and scored by Michelle macklum Our.
iHeart Team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rap
Fighting Words Wherever you get your Podcasts
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