September 12, 2025 • 31 mins
How do you use the SBIC program to access long-dated, low-cost leverage—without blowing up risk?
In this episode, I speak with Eric Rosiak, CEO & CIO of Amplify Community Investment Partners, about the mechanics of SBICs, the new accrual debenture license for venture and growth, what top LPs look for, and how policy changes could expand the opportunity set. We dig into eligibility tests, realistic fund sizes, diligence standards (they’re no joke), and why some large platforms now run SBIC sleeves alongside billion-dollar flagships.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So you've raised more SBIC funds than anysingle person on the entire planet.
(00:06):
Tell me about how you got in the business ofraising capital for SBIC funds.
I got involved with the SBIC program back in02/2007, and I wasn't familiar with the
program, but a regional bank was interested toprovide an anchor commitment to a mezzanine
debt team that was spinning out of Bank One,which ultimately led to the first SBIC license
(00:27):
for a group called Aldine Capital out ofChicago.
At Performance Trust, we studied the program,we studied the manager, and then we brought it
out to our clients, which was incrediblysuccessful and kind of an eye opening
opportunity for me.
How would you explain the opportunity in SBICfunds?
This is a great opportunity for investors thatwant to invest in US based, privately held
(00:50):
small businesses at scale, right, withexperienced and aligned GPs and with the
oversight of a federal government programthat's administered by the SBA, part of the
federal government.
There's risks, and in order to entice theprivate capital, these licensed SBICs can
(01:11):
access up to $175,000,000 Really incredible,favorably rates and terms, typically priced at
100 basis points or less over the ten yeartreasury, and ten years interest only money.
Although that's considered leverage, I reallylook at the SBA differently.
I think of them as like a special limitedpartner with a capped upside.
(01:33):
So you caught my attention.
Dollars 175,000,000 at 100 basis points overtreasuries for ten years interest only.
What's the catch about the program?
It's pretty difficult to get through thelicensing process, and you've got to have the
right team that can get approved, the rightstrategy that fits.
It's incredibly favorable once you get in, butthe vetting process and the qualifications to
(01:57):
get in on the front end are the tough part.
There's a three prong test.
Tell me about this three prong test.
The three prong test is really about thepotential portfolio companies and what an SBIC
can actually invest in that's eligible.
I think you'd be surprised it's much broaderthan you think.
First, have the and this is all at the time ofinvestment into the company, and it's set by
(02:19):
the SBA, but there's the industry NAICS codes.
That's one test.
It's called the employee test.
You'll typically see 500 employees and it stillqualifies.
Some industries even larger than that.
There's an or to that test, and that's on thecompany's financials.
So a net worth of less than $19,500,000 andaverage after tax income of less than
(02:43):
$6,500,000 over the two prior years.
But as you kind of back through all that withprivate companies, think of it as a proxy,
below 15,000,000 in EBITDA generally will fit.
Now some of those won't, and maybe there's acouple outliers that will, but that's a good
proxy, kind of the 0 to 15,000,000 of EBITDA.
It has to have roughly under 15,000,000 inEBITDA, which could put the target companies at
(03:09):
somewhere between a 75 to 150,000,000 kind ofmax valuation.
Yeah, I'd say so.
That's pretty fair.
There's been a lot of different types ofinstitutional investors over the years, right?
Historically, banks were the biggestsupporters.
I've had over 300 bank commitments on the SBICsI've worked on.
And that makes sense because it's very clearlydefined that SBICs are in the banking
(03:34):
regulations and regulatory framework.
Banks continue to invest still, and many ofthem have created annual allocations now.
Some of the largest banks in the country, likeBMO Harris Bank, Truist, Wells Fargo.
But also this program allows for the communityand regional banks to invest on the same terms
and conditions and still have the oversight ofthe SBA.
(03:57):
Outside of banks, we have insurance companies,of course, foundations.
There's a few fund to funds that have recentlyformed.
And last but not least, David, I think a bigthing we're starting to see is endowments.
So there's a few that are invested and there'sa lot that are considering the program,
especially over time and now with theperformance data available.
(04:18):
University of Michigan is a significant limitedpartner in many SBICs, but they have a very
narrow lens of what they're interested in fortheir mandate.
It's really in the private credit side wherethey'll come into an SBIC.
They're probably the largest LP in those funds,but they're only looking at maybe 10% or 20% of
(04:38):
the GPs that are out there.
On the other hand, Deb, you interviewed DaveDemeter of Davidson College, and he's also a
big LP in this space.
Even though it's a smaller endowment, he'ssuper active and has a different mandate.
So I would guess there's probably no crossoverbetween what University of Michigan and
Davidson are in, even though they're bothlooking at this program.
(05:00):
The first and most obvious thing is thereturns.
And once they've seen that themselves and havehad the chance of diligence, not just the
space, but the specific GPs, I think that'sreally played out.
You look at the Institute of Private Capital'snumbers and SBA numbers, and they largely beat
private credit and private equity outside ofthis program.
(05:24):
I think the better question is, how are theyable to do it on a small scale?
Because it's not as big as some of these otherfunds.
I think that's where the bottleneck is becauseyou have to have the teams like a Davidson,
like a Michigan, that are not necessarily doingeverything through consultants.
They're doing it on their own, searching outtheir own opportunities, and probably have a
(05:44):
little bit greater flexibility.
Tell me if this is too reductionary, but theLPs are able to access these returns typically
because there's leverage at a low cost for theunderlying funds.
So they're able to get maybe similar unleveredreturns but levered against the SBA grants
(06:06):
against the SBA investments, it becomes abetter performing asset.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you can look at the underlying, right,and what they're investing Lower middle market,
a lot of opportunities, a lot of work to bedone, but they're generating mid teens or low
20s type IRRs.
You effectively use the SBA capital, and inmost cases, the net ends up higher than the
(06:31):
gross.
People think of leverage, they think aboutrisk, and if it can go this way, it can go the
other way, and that's where I come back.
I really look at SBA as more of a speciallimited partner.
They're not trying to take over your companies.
They're providing capital at the fund levelrather than individual portfolio company
levels, and that capital allows for a largerteam, a larger investment size, larger
(06:54):
companies that they can go after instead ofdoing all sort of startup type things, even
though these are small businesses.
And I think that the SBA capital not onlyenhances the return, but does also reduce the
risk at that portfolio level.
SBIC funds as a category has grown massivelyover the last decade.
Why has it grown so much?
(07:17):
Yeah, that's a great question.
It has grown a lot and it's become much moreappealing.
Think a couple of things.
Some of the restrictions and regulations wereamended over the years.
A couple I'd point to is raising the family offunds limitation.
What happened was a lot of the betterperforming SBICs would then outgrow the program
(07:37):
and go raise a traditional institutional fundbecause they were limited raising the next
subsequent fund.
Many of them are back because that got raisedto $3.50, and there's even talk of it going up
again.
Similarly, another big change that I thinkhappened was the maximum allowable leverage per
fund was increased from 150,000,000 to 175,which allowed for slightly larger funds,
(08:03):
allowed you to grow your Ten years ago, theseSPICs were like 100,000,000 to $2.25 of total
capital, and now most funds I'm seeing are 150on the low end to $350,000,000, maybe a few
that are larger.
When you have a larger fund, it allows for moreinstitutional capital to come in based on their
(08:24):
limitations and sort of what they're trying toput to work.
And I've really seen it as a big blessing forthis SBIC program.
I hope that continues.
One thing that really surprised me when we werelast chatting is that you have large platforms
setting up SBIC funds as one of theirstrategies.
Tell me about that.
What's a good example of that?
We've seen that a lot, and that's really beenover the last five or ten years, in my opinion.
(08:49):
A great example, I raised capital for OaktreeCapital's first SBIC license.
Mean, incredibly experienced middle marketfinance team that they wanted to have a vehicle
where they could finance these smallerbusinesses, the deals they saw.
Lots of attractive opportunities lending tocompanies that would fit within the SBIC
program, both size and geography, right?
(09:11):
But really hard to do when you have amultibillion dollar fund that the team manages.
But a tremendous opportunity at sub$300,000,000 SBIC.
Other large asset management firms too, you'veseen like Barings, Energy Impact Partners,
they've come out and raised SBICs specificallyfor their private credit strategies.
(09:32):
I think that's going to continue, especially asthe SBIC program has really, as you mentioned,
evolved and grown.
Now you're even seeing sort of the entirelifeline of a small business from starting at
venture capital type SPICs are now available,totally different than what we'd seen in the
past fifteen or so years.
(09:54):
When we chatted the very first time, what Iloved about our conversation is you are plowing
your own money into the same asset class thatyou work in.
Tell me about your own personal investmentsinto SVIC funds.
Absolutely.
I know the people who are involved, and I'veseen the returns firsthand before the
(10:14):
performance data and everything came out.
I witnessed this and seen it.
I see who wins the deals.
I know who I want to avoid.
Those are kind of all the key elements tomaking investments.
And I've been in an LP in 10 funds, and I'mlooking to add more in the end of this year and
into 26.
Les McCarron, runs Alpine, one of the top kindof placement agents in the world, He talks
(10:39):
about this unique vantage point where he getsto make a decision on whether to invest after
he sees hundreds of different slices and dicesof the diligence.
It's this really underrated vantage point fromwhich to make investment.
Of course.
Of course.
And spending time with the managers, you know.
And also seeing how they react to diligencequestions, whether they're thoughtful, whether
(11:00):
they're honest people fundamentally kind ofbeing on their side gives an interesting
vantage point.
For sure.
For sure.
When you invest your own money, what are youlooking for when it comes to SBIC funds?
That's a good question.
I'll break it down a couple of ways because oneis when we invest our own money, but then also
groups we'd want to work with, right?
(11:22):
So it's going to vary on that because not allthe investors have the same interests and risk
perceptions and tolerances.
So for example, David, some funds we've raisedare solely marketed to banks because it helps
them meet their community reinvestment actneeds in specific markets and is well aligned
with that.
And other funds only had one or two banks asinvestors, right?
(11:44):
But in all the cases, it always comes back downto who is the team, the GP team that's managing
it.
As you know, most SBICs are either smallerfirms or smaller teams at a large firm, and
then it really comes down to them becausethey're the ones who are sourcing the
investments, the opportunities to invest.
They're performing diligence, and then mostimportantly, they're helping the companies
(12:06):
execute on their game plan.
For me and at Amplify, what we focus on, wehave three core requirements.
Number one, alignment.
Two, integrity and three, wisdom.
Fairly straightforward, but it all comes fromour experience.
You learn from both great and poor experiences,so we've put alignment number one.
(12:27):
I think that's critical.
Even with the guardrails of the SBA oversightand annual audits, etcetera, really being
aligned with the GP is important.
Integrity.
This is about trust.
You're making a long term commitment, andyou're believing in a team that they're going
to execute their strategy over a long period oftime and obviously work together, stay
together.
(12:50):
I look at their backgrounds, check theinternet, things like broker check, what is
their reputation?
Do your diligence, right?
You're going to be committed for a long time.
And then last is wisdom, of course.
What have we learned from our experiences?
What is being marketed and told versus whatwe've personally seen in the last eighteen plus
years of evaluating SPICs, and with the goal oflet's not make the same mistakes again, right?
(13:16):
When we drill down further and are going tocommit capital for our own account, we're
really looking at SPICs that have anexpectation to beat the median returns.
I think on your prior podcast, was 16.9 net IRRand 2.3 times net multiple of invested capital.
(13:37):
To get compensated for that sort of long termcommitment with our capital, we want to see a
track record that not only beats that, but theexpectation that they're going to generate 2.5
times net multiple of invested capital orgreater.
And look, I'd be super happy with the medianperformance, right?
Those numbers beat what you'd regularly seeproduced.
But we believe in this space, we can get accessto the top performing managers.
(14:01):
So we think we can beat that.
Said another way, just because it's an SBICfund, the rules of private equity or private
credit do not change.
You're looking for the same thing, trackrecord, team references, all the same things.
It's just here, it's a favorable structure fromwhat you're investing in.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I feel a bit more protected with the SBAinvolved, and maybe that's my proximity to them
(14:23):
and having seen it over the years.
But their diligence is unmatched, and theydon't let things slide by, and they've done a
really, really good job of, you know, I thinkthat's why the program's performed so well.
Tell me exactly what is the SBA looking foroutside of the criteria around the companies?
What are they looking for in the team of apotential SBIC fund?
(14:46):
That's a great question.
And I get this one a lot from people,especially as the program has expanded for
venture capital, private credit and privateequity strategies.
It still goes back to the management teamqualifications being generally the same.
SBA wants to see a relevant and recent trackrecord, investing in the types of businesses
you're proposing to do and the structuresyou're proposing, right?
(15:08):
They not only qualify as SBIC eligible, but fitthat strategy.
Basically, I don't know if there's a brightline, but they're going to want to see at least
eight investments for the team, probably fouror more exits as a minimum, which you probably
need anyway to get validation from the privatemarkets.
SBA is going to value the team, the structure,the economics.
(15:31):
They highly believe in alignment as well, sothey're going want to see the GP getting the
carried interest and being committed for thelife of the fund.
SBA is also going to look at the ability toraise capital.
They've got to spend their time.
They've got to put them through the licensingprocess.
So they're going to know how do you raise thatinitial capital to get licensed, but then
(15:53):
ultimately the entire fundraise.
How are you going to get to your targets?
This isn't one of those programs you're goingto sneak in or buy an old license.
They're incredibly diligent.
The level and the rigor of the diligence isunmatched.
You've got FBI background checks, 25 referencesfrom each partner that can't overlap, full
(16:16):
disclosure and transparency around work andlegal history.
It's really, really extensive, it takes atleast six months, probably a year or more for
most GPs.
So you've got to be really committed to getthrough this approval process.
And look, that said, SBA only does so much.
Then it's a public private partnership.
Unless you get the private sector to step upand validate by making commitments, the license
(16:41):
never happens.
How does a venture fund go about accessing SBICmoney?
The Biden administration set up a new licensewithin the SBIC program called the accrual
debenture license.
This was a direct response for sort of thecapital gap and venture capital and also growth
equity within the traditional standarddebenture SBIC, as it's now called.
(17:07):
Very creative and compelling for LPs, and thisalso allows GPs to scale and provide more and
patient capital to the small businesses they'reinvesting in.
David, I raised capital for the very first one.
The first accrual licensee is a group calledPellion Ventures out of Salt Lake City, Utah.
Team has an amazing track record.
(17:29):
They've been investing and creating jobs,supporting the venture capital ecosystem in
Utah, and other markets as well, but their kindof hook is that they're the largest VC fund in
Utah, and this most recent fund date was$500,000,000 You'll find this interesting.
So there's a traditional unlevered fund that alot of institutional investors went in, and
(17:50):
then there's the parallel accrual SBIC.
And the accrual SBIC, of course, banks caninvest, but so could other investors.
They're going into the same companies, samesecurities, but the accrual SBIC can access up
to $175,000,000 from the SBA discounted toabout, let's call it, 125,000,000 because
(18:11):
that's how the accrual debenture works.
And look, I understand why people invest withthat firm, but I can understand why you would
not do the accrual if you had the opportunity.
So I think there's more education that needs tohappen there, but you're seeing a lot of these
venture firms now sniffing around the programand getting licensed.
I'll double click on that because I waswondering the same thing, which is you have
(18:33):
these parallel funds.
Is that just the fund meeting their LPs wherethey are from a kind of how they're thinking
about investing in venture?
Because it would seem that those institutionalinvestors would also want to be levered if they
really understood the leverage.
I wonder, and I ask a lot of the investorsthemselves, I think you have a couple of things
going on.
One, the institutional investment consultantcommunity is not going to look at the SBIC
(18:58):
levered vehicle.
Hopefully that changes here in the near future,but historically it hasn't.
So the folks that are using consultants aregenerally going in the other fund.
And then of course, different investmentpolicies around leverage and SBA being a kind
of a different version of leverage.
They don't really distinguish between that andtheir investment policy.
(19:20):
You mentioned eight investments for exits, AKAfour companies, some sort of DPI.
Could that be done at a previous firm?
Does this work for spinouts or this is justkind of a fund two, fund three phenomenon?
No, that's a great question.
Yeah, a lot of spinouts actually.
In fact, that's where some of the best groupscame from initially.
(19:42):
Let me take you back through time a little bit,David.
When I started doing this over fifteen yearsago, you could get through as a first time fund
manager, a small team, maybe two or threepartners, very limited track record, even as a
fundless sponsor.
But if you could raise 20,000,000 of privatecapital commitments and target the right size
(20:04):
businesses that are in The US, you couldprobably get approved.
Today, I think the bar's risen, and you'llrarely, rarely see a GPU with less than three
partners, probably more, an extensive trackrecord, even first time fund managers coming
out of their old shop or bank or wherever theyworked.
(20:24):
And the majority that I've seen now need toclose on at least 30,000,000 of private capital
to get through that final licensing step,right?
So that can be really difficult.
It used to be 20,000,000 or less.
Now you've got LP considerations where theyonly want to be so much of a fund as a
percentage, or they don't want to go into afirst close, which creates sort of a chicken
(20:46):
and the egg, right?
Because you need the first close to get thelicense issued.
And I'll tell you the reason why all that, Ithink it's positive, right?
This is SBA's sort of reaction.
About ten years ago, there was a study donethat showed SBICs that raised less than
25,000,000 of private capital were six timesmore likely to go into the office of
(21:07):
liquidation, which is obviously a bad outcome.
Doesn't mean that they didn't get all the moneyback.
It just means now SBA is directing how you'regoing to operate.
And so that's not good.
SBA adjusted based on those numbers, and nowthey want to see a higher first close.
So you're seeing much larger first closings.
And to do that, you need the support of eitheryour prior LPs or a really great story or some
(21:30):
sort of anchor coming out for fund one.
Said another way, one thing that GPs might wantto consider is adding the ability to take SBIC
money into their original LPA so that they havethat optionality after the first close.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
Definitely.
Are those things that are typically baked intoLPAs or is this like some special provisions
(21:52):
that people typically have to add?
Great question.
You know, it's funny to me, I see non SBICfunds and the LPAs can kind of be all over the
place.
One of the benefits of this program is it's theSBA's program.
So they'll accept changes and modifications andstuff, but they have created a standard LPA
that you kind of can navigate away from.
(22:14):
But most things are pretty standard acrossSBIC.
Typically, 150,000,000 to $500,000,000 perfund, depending on the team and strategy.
I think I mentioned earlier, most SBICs, aswe've seen over the recent years, you're going
to see kind of 2 50 to three fifty for thosetop performing GPs who have the ability to
attract institutional capital.
(22:38):
Funds under 500,000,000, that's really theopportunity set because it's largely been
ignored by the institutional investmentconsultants.
The nice thing is it creates the opportunity,but it's also constrained the acceptance among
the broader institutional investor universe.
That could change.
Recently, SBA put out their report thatbenchmarked against Cambridge data for both
(23:01):
private credit and private equity.
Of course, we mentioned the Institute forPrivate Capital's study.
As that information continues to come out, Ithink it'll be helpful.
At some point, the data is too much to deny,and hopefully there'll be certain consultants
that say, Look, we want to find the best riskadjusted returns for our clients.
I think that's one component.
(23:22):
The other thing is you're seeing, as youmentioned, larger firms, David.
A lot of the firms I've worked with will have aflagship or larger fund that's a billion
dollars plus of committed capital, but theycan't do that into SBIC eligible businesses in
the relevant timeframe.
So it creates a nice opportunity, and I likethat dynamic because you've got the
(23:44):
institutional resources and support andprocesses of the firm, and you can bring that
to the lower middle market businesses throughthis SBIC.
So not many groups I see these days raise anSBIC and then go away from it.
That usually is an addition to their offerings.
And I know there's some legislative effortsunderway to try to increase the amount that
(24:08):
SBIC funds can invest.
Tell me about that.
Yeah, very exciting stuff here.
It's been a minute, but there's a number ofconversations going on in DC.
The one I'd focus on the most is the Investingin All of America Act.
I know there's a number of other conversations,but this seems most relevant to me and for a
couple of reasons.
One, they have a potential inflation adjustmentfor the leverage.
(24:32):
So for the standard SBIC program that happenedover seven years ago, for accrual, that's a new
program, so not part of the proposal.
But the most recent proposal I heard wouldincrease the amount of leverage per SBIC to go
from 175 to two fifty.
And as a family of funds, remember, FGI isoutstanding across prior funds up to four
(24:52):
seventy five.
The last time these numbers were increased, ithelped not only retain, but also attract some
of what I consider the top GPs today.
I expect it would have a very similar effectthis time around as well.
And then also interesting, but not as I thinkthat could be one of the biggest changes ever
(25:14):
to the program.
Another interesting thing, there's a proposalfor bonus leverage.
If an SBIC can invest in rural and low incomeareas or manufacturing companies or national
security related sectors, that's the one thingwhere you'll see the federal government trying
to help direct where capital can go.
But they're doing it through bonus, not throughrequirements of the initial mandate.
(25:36):
I totally buy the thesis that the increase inamount of the funds will not only increase the
amount that current GPs are raising, it'll alsojust completely change the dynamics of who's
looking at this program.
The bigger the number, it's kind of has this,like, exponential effect versus a linear
effect.
We saw a similar effect in the early stages incrowdfunding when it went from one to
(25:59):
5,000,000.
It didn't just go up by five times, but nowcompanies that would never had, you know, would
never had dealt with the regulatory pains ofraising $1,000,000 suddenly at $5,000,000 it
became more worthwhile.
I think we would see the steps of improvement.
And as long as you're still targeting the smallbusinesses and it fits, I mean, it makes a lot
(26:19):
of sense.
Many of these groups utilize a lot of coinvestment, so you've got to have partners that
are willing to do the co investment or you putthe opportunity at risk.
Still staying below $500,000,000 of a fundsize, you can do really well in this lower
middle market and have the room for growth ifthat's what your strategy is.
What are some investing mistakes that you madeas an LP in these funds early on that you've
(26:45):
since corrected?
The first thing is, I backed the wrong managerthrough their first fund when they realized
their goal is really how do we get to fund twothat's going to be larger and have more
management fees, etcetera.
As a result, we'd still consider first timeSBIC fund managers understand the dynamic, but
our strong preference is for fund two or later,and some of the things they can learn about the
(27:08):
nuances of the program.
I took on a few groups that were comingtogether for the first time that now I wouldn't
do again or for their next fund, even if thereturns were decent, but it worked out, right?
I think the other big thing, and this isprobably most important, is the licensing
process and understanding the timeline to getapproved by the SBA.
(27:30):
There were two SBICs I was working with thathad a plan in place, thought they were going to
raise the money.
They were getting leverage.
By the time they got through the SBA process,were getting significantly less leverage than
the plan was initially.
And that changes the deal, not just overall,but to LPs, right?
So I had to kind of relook at that.
(27:51):
Look, that seems to be more in the past.
SBA last year put in a new process that speedsthings up, and they are hitting all time record
high numbers when you include the venturefunds.
So it's really hard to argue it's massivesuccess of the program, and I think there's a
lot of room to grow and achieve outstandingreturns through investing in American small
(28:13):
businesses.
Where do GPs that raise capital from SBIC gowrong?
Are there certain strategies that should not beborrowing this type of money and getting this
interest rate capital?
Where do they go wrong?
Well, one, you've got to get through the SBA'sprocess.
So the strategy and all that's going to bethoroughly assessed, right?
(28:35):
So by the time you get there, you're probably afit.
I think the issue, I would say, where they gowrong is trying to fit something into the
program that's not.
So now that there's a venture program, growthequity program, you're going to see those in
the accrual debenture rather than a standarddebenture where it doesn't match up the cash
flow timing of things.
(28:55):
So you've been in the space for eighteen years,which is significant amount of time, especially
versus the average person.
You've seen this industry really grow.
What one piece of advice would you have givenEric eighteen years ago, right before you
started in the SBIC?
Wow, great question.
(29:17):
Definitely the leadership in the team.
Definitely at the top, their ability to producethose returns again that were in the track
record and really understand the dynamic.
Who's sourcing the opportunities?
How do they work together?
That's helped me find the best performers, andthen also think about who I might avoid.
(29:40):
The other thing I would say is people that arewilling to take the win and move on.
Some of these funds you see hanging out way toolong, and I feel that the people that have more
of a process and kind of get through it fasterin a more reasonable timeframe on the portfolio
companies have grown much more and done a lotbetter.
(30:02):
It's interesting because there's this positivecorrelation in how long somebody has been in
the industry and how successful and how far upthey've climbed to the probability of them
seeing team and culture.
It all it scales very well if you ask, like, aCEO of a $10,000,000,000 asset manager.
The odds of them saying something around peopleversus about trades or even process is highly
(30:27):
likely.
It's something that it's almost like thisconsensus view that people come to over many
decades.
Well, especially over time.
You see and what stands out in your mind is theexample of what didn't work and what really
worked well, right?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Well, Eric, this has been the masterclass onSVIC funds.
I appreciate you jumping on the podcast.
(30:48):
Look forward to continuing this conversationlive.
Likewise.
Thanks a lot, David.
Appreciate Thanks for listening to myconversation.
If you enjoyed this episode, please share witha friend.
This helps us grow.
Also provides the very best feedback when wereview the episode's analytics.
Thank you for your support.
So you've raised more SBIC funds than anysingle person on the entire planet.
(00:06):
Tell me about how you got in the business ofraising capital for SBIC funds.
I got involved with the SBIC program back in02/2007, and I wasn't familiar with the
program, but a regional bank was interested toprovide an anchor commitment to a mezzanine
debt team that was spinning out of Bank One,which ultimately led to the first SBIC license
(00:27):
for a group called Aldine Capital out ofChicago.
At Performance Trust, we studied the program,we studied the manager, and then we brought it
out to our clients, which was incrediblysuccessful and kind of an eye opening
opportunity for me.
How would you explain the opportunity in SBICfunds?
This is a great opportunity for investors thatwant to invest in US based, privately held
(00:50):
small businesses at scale, right, withexperienced and aligned GPs and with the
oversight of a federal government programthat's administered by the SBA, part of the
federal government.
There's risks, and in order to entice theprivate capital, these licensed SBICs can
(01:11):
access up to $175,000,000 Really incredible,favorably rates and terms, typically priced at
100 basis points or less over the ten yeartreasury, and ten years interest only money.
Although that's considered leverage, I reallylook at the SBA differently.
I think of them as like a special limitedpartner with a capped upside.
(01:33):
So you caught my attention.
Dollars 175,000,000 at 100 basis points overtreasuries for ten years interest only.
What's the catch about the program?
It's pretty difficult to get through thelicensing process, and you've got to have the
right team that can get approved, the rightstrategy that fits.
It's incredibly favorable once you get in, butthe vetting process and the qualifications to
(01:57):
get in on the front end are the tough part.
There's a three prong test.
Tell me about this three prong test.
The three prong test is really about thepotential portfolio companies and what an SBIC
can actually invest in that's eligible.
I think you'd be surprised it's much broaderthan you think.
First, have the and this is all at the time ofinvestment into the company, and it's set by
(02:19):
the SBA, but there's the industry NAICS codes.
That's one test.
It's called the employee test.
You'll typically see 500 employees and it stillqualifies.
Some industries even larger than that.
There's an or to that test, and that's on thecompany's financials.
So a net worth of less than $19,500,000 andaverage after tax income of less than
(02:43):
$6,500,000 over the two prior years.
But as you kind of back through all that withprivate companies, think of it as a proxy,
below 15,000,000 in EBITDA generally will fit.
Now some of those won't, and maybe there's acouple outliers that will, but that's a good
proxy, kind of the 0 to 15,000,000 of EBITDA.
It has to have roughly under 15,000,000 inEBITDA, which could put the target companies at
(03:09):
somewhere between a 75 to 150,000,000 kind ofmax valuation.
Yeah, I'd say so.
That's pretty fair.
There's been a lot of different types ofinstitutional investors over the years, right?
Historically, banks were the biggestsupporters.
I've had over 300 bank commitments on the SBICsI've worked on.
And that makes sense because it's very clearlydefined that SBICs are in the banking
(03:34):
regulations and regulatory framework.
Banks continue to invest still, and many ofthem have created annual allocations now.
Some of the largest banks in the country, likeBMO Harris Bank, Truist, Wells Fargo.
But also this program allows for the communityand regional banks to invest on the same terms
and conditions and still have the oversight ofthe SBA.
(03:57):
Outside of banks, we have insurance companies,of course, foundations.
There's a few fund to funds that have recentlyformed.
And last but not least, David, I think a bigthing we're starting to see is endowments.
So there's a few that are invested and there'sa lot that are considering the program,
especially over time and now with theperformance data available.
(04:18):
University of Michigan is a significant limitedpartner in many SBICs, but they have a very
narrow lens of what they're interested in fortheir mandate.
It's really in the private credit side wherethey'll come into an SBIC.
They're probably the largest LP in those funds,but they're only looking at maybe 10% or 20% of
(04:38):
the GPs that are out there.
On the other hand, Deb, you interviewed DaveDemeter of Davidson College, and he's also a
big LP in this space.
Even though it's a smaller endowment, he'ssuper active and has a different mandate.
So I would guess there's probably no crossoverbetween what University of Michigan and
Davidson are in, even though they're bothlooking at this program.
(05:00):
The first and most obvious thing is thereturns.
And once they've seen that themselves and havehad the chance of diligence, not just the
space, but the specific GPs, I think that'sreally played out.
You look at the Institute of Private Capital'snumbers and SBA numbers, and they largely beat
private credit and private equity outside ofthis program.
(05:24):
I think the better question is, how are theyable to do it on a small scale?
Because it's not as big as some of these otherfunds.
I think that's where the bottleneck is becauseyou have to have the teams like a Davidson,
like a Michigan, that are not necessarily doingeverything through consultants.
They're doing it on their own, searching outtheir own opportunities, and probably have a
(05:44):
little bit greater flexibility.
Tell me if this is too reductionary, but theLPs are able to access these returns typically
because there's leverage at a low cost for theunderlying funds.
So they're able to get maybe similar unleveredreturns but levered against the SBA grants
(06:06):
against the SBA investments, it becomes abetter performing asset.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you can look at the underlying, right,and what they're investing Lower middle market,
a lot of opportunities, a lot of work to bedone, but they're generating mid teens or low
20s type IRRs.
You effectively use the SBA capital, and inmost cases, the net ends up higher than the
(06:31):
gross.
People think of leverage, they think aboutrisk, and if it can go this way, it can go the
other way, and that's where I come back.
I really look at SBA as more of a speciallimited partner.
They're not trying to take over your companies.
They're providing capital at the fund levelrather than individual portfolio company
levels, and that capital allows for a largerteam, a larger investment size, larger
(06:54):
companies that they can go after instead ofdoing all sort of startup type things, even
though these are small businesses.
And I think that the SBA capital not onlyenhances the return, but does also reduce the
risk at that portfolio level.
SBIC funds as a category has grown massivelyover the last decade.
Why has it grown so much?
(07:17):
Yeah, that's a great question.
It has grown a lot and it's become much moreappealing.
Think a couple of things.
Some of the restrictions and regulations wereamended over the years.
A couple I'd point to is raising the family offunds limitation.
What happened was a lot of the betterperforming SBICs would then outgrow the program
(07:37):
and go raise a traditional institutional fundbecause they were limited raising the next
subsequent fund.
Many of them are back because that got raisedto $3.50, and there's even talk of it going up
again.
Similarly, another big change that I thinkhappened was the maximum allowable leverage per
fund was increased from 150,000,000 to 175,which allowed for slightly larger funds,
(08:03):
allowed you to grow your Ten years ago, theseSPICs were like 100,000,000 to $2.25 of total
capital, and now most funds I'm seeing are 150on the low end to $350,000,000, maybe a few
that are larger.
When you have a larger fund, it allows for moreinstitutional capital to come in based on their
(08:24):
limitations and sort of what they're trying toput to work.
And I've really seen it as a big blessing forthis SBIC program.
I hope that continues.
One thing that really surprised me when we werelast chatting is that you have large platforms
setting up SBIC funds as one of theirstrategies.
Tell me about that.
What's a good example of that?
We've seen that a lot, and that's really beenover the last five or ten years, in my opinion.
(08:49):
A great example, I raised capital for OaktreeCapital's first SBIC license.
Mean, incredibly experienced middle marketfinance team that they wanted to have a vehicle
where they could finance these smallerbusinesses, the deals they saw.
Lots of attractive opportunities lending tocompanies that would fit within the SBIC
program, both size and geography, right?
(09:11):
But really hard to do when you have amultibillion dollar fund that the team manages.
But a tremendous opportunity at sub$300,000,000 SBIC.
Other large asset management firms too, you'veseen like Barings, Energy Impact Partners,
they've come out and raised SBICs specificallyfor their private credit strategies.
(09:32):
I think that's going to continue, especially asthe SBIC program has really, as you mentioned,
evolved and grown.
Now you're even seeing sort of the entirelifeline of a small business from starting at
venture capital type SPICs are now available,totally different than what we'd seen in the
past fifteen or so years.
(09:54):
When we chatted the very first time, what Iloved about our conversation is you are plowing
your own money into the same asset class thatyou work in.
Tell me about your own personal investmentsinto SVIC funds.
Absolutely.
I know the people who are involved, and I'veseen the returns firsthand before the
(10:14):
performance data and everything came out.
I witnessed this and seen it.
I see who wins the deals.
I know who I want to avoid.
Those are kind of all the key elements tomaking investments.
And I've been in an LP in 10 funds, and I'mlooking to add more in the end of this year and
into 26.
Les McCarron, runs Alpine, one of the top kindof placement agents in the world, He talks
(10:39):
about this unique vantage point where he getsto make a decision on whether to invest after
he sees hundreds of different slices and dicesof the diligence.
It's this really underrated vantage point fromwhich to make investment.
Of course.
Of course.
And spending time with the managers, you know.
And also seeing how they react to diligencequestions, whether they're thoughtful, whether
(11:00):
they're honest people fundamentally kind ofbeing on their side gives an interesting
vantage point.
For sure.
For sure.
When you invest your own money, what are youlooking for when it comes to SBIC funds?
That's a good question.
I'll break it down a couple of ways because oneis when we invest our own money, but then also
groups we'd want to work with, right?
(11:22):
So it's going to vary on that because not allthe investors have the same interests and risk
perceptions and tolerances.
So for example, David, some funds we've raisedare solely marketed to banks because it helps
them meet their community reinvestment actneeds in specific markets and is well aligned
with that.
And other funds only had one or two banks asinvestors, right?
(11:44):
But in all the cases, it always comes back downto who is the team, the GP team that's managing
it.
As you know, most SBICs are either smallerfirms or smaller teams at a large firm, and
then it really comes down to them becausethey're the ones who are sourcing the
investments, the opportunities to invest.
They're performing diligence, and then mostimportantly, they're helping the companies
(12:06):
execute on their game plan.
For me and at Amplify, what we focus on, wehave three core requirements.
Number one, alignment.
Two, integrity and three, wisdom.
Fairly straightforward, but it all comes fromour experience.
You learn from both great and poor experiences,so we've put alignment number one.
(12:27):
I think that's critical.
Even with the guardrails of the SBA oversightand annual audits, etcetera, really being
aligned with the GP is important.
Integrity.
This is about trust.
You're making a long term commitment, andyou're believing in a team that they're going
to execute their strategy over a long period oftime and obviously work together, stay
together.
(12:50):
I look at their backgrounds, check theinternet, things like broker check, what is
their reputation?
Do your diligence, right?
You're going to be committed for a long time.
And then last is wisdom, of course.
What have we learned from our experiences?
What is being marketed and told versus whatwe've personally seen in the last eighteen plus
years of evaluating SPICs, and with the goal oflet's not make the same mistakes again, right?
(13:16):
When we drill down further and are going tocommit capital for our own account, we're
really looking at SPICs that have anexpectation to beat the median returns.
I think on your prior podcast, was 16.9 net IRRand 2.3 times net multiple of invested capital.
(13:37):
To get compensated for that sort of long termcommitment with our capital, we want to see a
track record that not only beats that, but theexpectation that they're going to generate 2.5
times net multiple of invested capital orgreater.
And look, I'd be super happy with the medianperformance, right?
Those numbers beat what you'd regularly seeproduced.
But we believe in this space, we can get accessto the top performing managers.
(14:01):
So we think we can beat that.
Said another way, just because it's an SBICfund, the rules of private equity or private
credit do not change.
You're looking for the same thing, trackrecord, team references, all the same things.
It's just here, it's a favorable structure fromwhat you're investing in.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I feel a bit more protected with the SBAinvolved, and maybe that's my proximity to them
(14:23):
and having seen it over the years.
But their diligence is unmatched, and theydon't let things slide by, and they've done a
really, really good job of, you know, I thinkthat's why the program's performed so well.
Tell me exactly what is the SBA looking foroutside of the criteria around the companies?
What are they looking for in the team of apotential SBIC fund?
(14:46):
That's a great question.
And I get this one a lot from people,especially as the program has expanded for
venture capital, private credit and privateequity strategies.
It still goes back to the management teamqualifications being generally the same.
SBA wants to see a relevant and recent trackrecord, investing in the types of businesses
you're proposing to do and the structuresyou're proposing, right?
(15:08):
They not only qualify as SBIC eligible, but fitthat strategy.
Basically, I don't know if there's a brightline, but they're going to want to see at least
eight investments for the team, probably fouror more exits as a minimum, which you probably
need anyway to get validation from the privatemarkets.
SBA is going to value the team, the structure,the economics.
(15:31):
They highly believe in alignment as well, sothey're going want to see the GP getting the
carried interest and being committed for thelife of the fund.
SBA is also going to look at the ability toraise capital.
They've got to spend their time.
They've got to put them through the licensingprocess.
So they're going to know how do you raise thatinitial capital to get licensed, but then
(15:53):
ultimately the entire fundraise.
How are you going to get to your targets?
This isn't one of those programs you're goingto sneak in or buy an old license.
They're incredibly diligent.
The level and the rigor of the diligence isunmatched.
You've got FBI background checks, 25 referencesfrom each partner that can't overlap, full
(16:16):
disclosure and transparency around work andlegal history.
It's really, really extensive, it takes atleast six months, probably a year or more for
most GPs.
So you've got to be really committed to getthrough this approval process.
And look, that said, SBA only does so much.
Then it's a public private partnership.
Unless you get the private sector to step upand validate by making commitments, the license
(16:41):
never happens.
How does a venture fund go about accessing SBICmoney?
The Biden administration set up a new licensewithin the SBIC program called the accrual
debenture license.
This was a direct response for sort of thecapital gap and venture capital and also growth
equity within the traditional standarddebenture SBIC, as it's now called.
(17:07):
Very creative and compelling for LPs, and thisalso allows GPs to scale and provide more and
patient capital to the small businesses they'reinvesting in.
David, I raised capital for the very first one.
The first accrual licensee is a group calledPellion Ventures out of Salt Lake City, Utah.
Team has an amazing track record.
(17:29):
They've been investing and creating jobs,supporting the venture capital ecosystem in
Utah, and other markets as well, but their kindof hook is that they're the largest VC fund in
Utah, and this most recent fund date was$500,000,000 You'll find this interesting.
So there's a traditional unlevered fund that alot of institutional investors went in, and
(17:50):
then there's the parallel accrual SBIC.
And the accrual SBIC, of course, banks caninvest, but so could other investors.
They're going into the same companies, samesecurities, but the accrual SBIC can access up
to $175,000,000 from the SBA discounted toabout, let's call it, 125,000,000 because
(18:11):
that's how the accrual debenture works.
And look, I understand why people invest withthat firm, but I can understand why you would
not do the accrual if you had the opportunity.
So I think there's more education that needs tohappen there, but you're seeing a lot of these
venture firms now sniffing around the programand getting licensed.
I'll double click on that because I waswondering the same thing, which is you have
(18:33):
these parallel funds.
Is that just the fund meeting their LPs wherethey are from a kind of how they're thinking
about investing in venture?
Because it would seem that those institutionalinvestors would also want to be levered if they
really understood the leverage.
I wonder, and I ask a lot of the investorsthemselves, I think you have a couple of things
going on.
One, the institutional investment consultantcommunity is not going to look at the SBIC
(18:58):
levered vehicle.
Hopefully that changes here in the near future,but historically it hasn't.
So the folks that are using consultants aregenerally going in the other fund.
And then of course, different investmentpolicies around leverage and SBA being a kind
of a different version of leverage.
They don't really distinguish between that andtheir investment policy.
(19:20):
You mentioned eight investments for exits, AKAfour companies, some sort of DPI.
Could that be done at a previous firm?
Does this work for spinouts or this is justkind of a fund two, fund three phenomenon?
No, that's a great question.
Yeah, a lot of spinouts actually.
In fact, that's where some of the best groupscame from initially.
(19:42):
Let me take you back through time a little bit,David.
When I started doing this over fifteen yearsago, you could get through as a first time fund
manager, a small team, maybe two or threepartners, very limited track record, even as a
fundless sponsor.
But if you could raise 20,000,000 of privatecapital commitments and target the right size
(20:04):
businesses that are in The US, you couldprobably get approved.
Today, I think the bar's risen, and you'llrarely, rarely see a GPU with less than three
partners, probably more, an extensive trackrecord, even first time fund managers coming
out of their old shop or bank or wherever theyworked.
(20:24):
And the majority that I've seen now need toclose on at least 30,000,000 of private capital
to get through that final licensing step,right?
So that can be really difficult.
It used to be 20,000,000 or less.
Now you've got LP considerations where theyonly want to be so much of a fund as a
percentage, or they don't want to go into afirst close, which creates sort of a chicken
(20:46):
and the egg, right?
Because you need the first close to get thelicense issued.
And I'll tell you the reason why all that, Ithink it's positive, right?
This is SBA's sort of reaction.
About ten years ago, there was a study donethat showed SBICs that raised less than
25,000,000 of private capital were six timesmore likely to go into the office of
(21:07):
liquidation, which is obviously a bad outcome.
Doesn't mean that they didn't get all the moneyback.
It just means now SBA is directing how you'regoing to operate.
And so that's not good.
SBA adjusted based on those numbers, and nowthey want to see a higher first close.
So you're seeing much larger first closings.
And to do that, you need the support of eitheryour prior LPs or a really great story or some
(21:30):
sort of anchor coming out for fund one.
Said another way, one thing that GPs might wantto consider is adding the ability to take SBIC
money into their original LPA so that they havethat optionality after the first close.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
Definitely.
Are those things that are typically baked intoLPAs or is this like some special provisions
(21:52):
that people typically have to add?
Great question.
You know, it's funny to me, I see non SBICfunds and the LPAs can kind of be all over the
place.
One of the benefits of this program is it's theSBA's program.
So they'll accept changes and modifications andstuff, but they have created a standard LPA
that you kind of can navigate away from.
(22:14):
But most things are pretty standard acrossSBIC.
Typically, 150,000,000 to $500,000,000 perfund, depending on the team and strategy.
I think I mentioned earlier, most SBICs, aswe've seen over the recent years, you're going
to see kind of 2 50 to three fifty for thosetop performing GPs who have the ability to
attract institutional capital.
(22:38):
Funds under 500,000,000, that's really theopportunity set because it's largely been
ignored by the institutional investmentconsultants.
The nice thing is it creates the opportunity,but it's also constrained the acceptance among
the broader institutional investor universe.
That could change.
Recently, SBA put out their report thatbenchmarked against Cambridge data for both
(23:01):
private credit and private equity.
Of course, we mentioned the Institute forPrivate Capital's study.
As that information continues to come out, Ithink it'll be helpful.
At some point, the data is too much to deny,and hopefully there'll be certain consultants
that say, Look, we want to find the best riskadjusted returns for our clients.
I think that's one component.
(23:22):
The other thing is you're seeing, as youmentioned, larger firms, David.
A lot of the firms I've worked with will have aflagship or larger fund that's a billion
dollars plus of committed capital, but theycan't do that into SBIC eligible businesses in
the relevant timeframe.
So it creates a nice opportunity, and I likethat dynamic because you've got the
(23:44):
institutional resources and support andprocesses of the firm, and you can bring that
to the lower middle market businesses throughthis SBIC.
So not many groups I see these days raise anSBIC and then go away from it.
That usually is an addition to their offerings.
And I know there's some legislative effortsunderway to try to increase the amount that
(24:08):
SBIC funds can invest.
Tell me about that.
Yeah, very exciting stuff here.
It's been a minute, but there's a number ofconversations going on in DC.
The one I'd focus on the most is the Investingin All of America Act.
I know there's a number of other conversations,but this seems most relevant to me and for a
couple of reasons.
One, they have a potential inflation adjustmentfor the leverage.
(24:32):
So for the standard SBIC program that happenedover seven years ago, for accrual, that's a new
program, so not part of the proposal.
But the most recent proposal I heard wouldincrease the amount of leverage per SBIC to go
from 175 to two fifty.
And as a family of funds, remember, FGI isoutstanding across prior funds up to four
(24:52):
seventy five.
The last time these numbers were increased, ithelped not only retain, but also attract some
of what I consider the top GPs today.
I expect it would have a very similar effectthis time around as well.
And then also interesting, but not as I thinkthat could be one of the biggest changes ever
(25:14):
to the program.
Another interesting thing, there's a proposalfor bonus leverage.
If an SBIC can invest in rural and low incomeareas or manufacturing companies or national
security related sectors, that's the one thingwhere you'll see the federal government trying
to help direct where capital can go.
But they're doing it through bonus, not throughrequirements of the initial mandate.
(25:36):
I totally buy the thesis that the increase inamount of the funds will not only increase the
amount that current GPs are raising, it'll alsojust completely change the dynamics of who's
looking at this program.
The bigger the number, it's kind of has this,like, exponential effect versus a linear
effect.
We saw a similar effect in the early stages incrowdfunding when it went from one to
(25:59):
5,000,000.
It didn't just go up by five times, but nowcompanies that would never had, you know, would
never had dealt with the regulatory pains ofraising $1,000,000 suddenly at $5,000,000 it
became more worthwhile.
I think we would see the steps of improvement.
And as long as you're still targeting the smallbusinesses and it fits, I mean, it makes a lot
(26:19):
of sense.
Many of these groups utilize a lot of coinvestment, so you've got to have partners that
are willing to do the co investment or you putthe opportunity at risk.
Still staying below $500,000,000 of a fundsize, you can do really well in this lower
middle market and have the room for growth ifthat's what your strategy is.
What are some investing mistakes that you madeas an LP in these funds early on that you've
(26:45):
since corrected?
The first thing is, I backed the wrong managerthrough their first fund when they realized
their goal is really how do we get to fund twothat's going to be larger and have more
management fees, etcetera.
As a result, we'd still consider first timeSBIC fund managers understand the dynamic, but
our strong preference is for fund two or later,and some of the things they can learn about the
(27:08):
nuances of the program.
I took on a few groups that were comingtogether for the first time that now I wouldn't
do again or for their next fund, even if thereturns were decent, but it worked out, right?
I think the other big thing, and this isprobably most important, is the licensing
process and understanding the timeline to getapproved by the SBA.
(27:30):
There were two SBICs I was working with thathad a plan in place, thought they were going to
raise the money.
They were getting leverage.
By the time they got through the SBA process,were getting significantly less leverage than
the plan was initially.
And that changes the deal, not just overall,but to LPs, right?
So I had to kind of relook at that.
(27:51):
Look, that seems to be more in the past.
SBA last year put in a new process that speedsthings up, and they are hitting all time record
high numbers when you include the venturefunds.
So it's really hard to argue it's massivesuccess of the program, and I think there's a
lot of room to grow and achieve outstandingreturns through investing in American small
(28:13):
businesses.
Where do GPs that raise capital from SBIC gowrong?
Are there certain strategies that should not beborrowing this type of money and getting this
interest rate capital?
Where do they go wrong?
Well, one, you've got to get through the SBA'sprocess.
So the strategy and all that's going to bethoroughly assessed, right?
(28:35):
So by the time you get there, you're probably afit.
I think the issue, I would say, where they gowrong is trying to fit something into the
program that's not.
So now that there's a venture program, growthequity program, you're going to see those in
the accrual debenture rather than a standarddebenture where it doesn't match up the cash
flow timing of things.
(28:55):
So you've been in the space for eighteen years,which is significant amount of time, especially
versus the average person.
You've seen this industry really grow.
What one piece of advice would you have givenEric eighteen years ago, right before you
started in the SBIC?
Wow, great question.
(29:17):
Definitely the leadership in the team.
Definitely at the top, their ability to producethose returns again that were in the track
record and really understand the dynamic.
Who's sourcing the opportunities?
How do they work together?
That's helped me find the best performers, andthen also think about who I might avoid.
(29:40):
The other thing I would say is people that arewilling to take the win and move on.
Some of these funds you see hanging out way toolong, and I feel that the people that have more
of a process and kind of get through it fasterin a more reasonable timeframe on the portfolio
companies have grown much more and done a lotbetter.
(30:02):
It's interesting because there's this positivecorrelation in how long somebody has been in
the industry and how successful and how far upthey've climbed to the probability of them
seeing team and culture.
It all it scales very well if you ask, like, aCEO of a $10,000,000,000 asset manager.
The odds of them saying something around peopleversus about trades or even process is highly
(30:27):
likely.
It's something that it's almost like thisconsensus view that people come to over many
decades.
Well, especially over time.
You see and what stands out in your mind is theexample of what didn't work and what really
worked well, right?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Well, Eric, this has been the masterclass onSVIC funds.
I appreciate you jumping on the podcast.
(30:48):
Look forward to continuing this conversationlive.
Likewise.
Thanks a lot, David.
Appreciate Thanks for listening to myconversation.
If you enjoyed this episode, please share witha friend.
This helps us grow.
Also provides the very best feedback when wereview the episode's analytics.
Thank you for your support.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.