Bank teller to bank robber: Doug Morgan Pt.1

For the Morgans, being a bank robber ran in the family. Doug and his twin brother Peter robbed more than 20 banks in their criminal careers, following in the footsteps of their father. 

Doug joins Gary Jubelin to reveal what life was really like as a bank robber, his biggest haul and how he became one of the most wanted men in Australia.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.

(00:46):
Have you ever wondered what it's like to rob a bank?
What planning goes into preparing for the job. How do
you select the bank? What weapon are you a going
to take? What's the best disguise? Have you got to
get away plan robbery? What do you do with the cash?
What do you do when you are the most wanted
man in the country. Well, today we're going to find

(01:07):
that out because we're talking to one half of the
After Dark Bandit crew, who were responsible for over twenty
bank and tab robberies. We're talking to former and now
reformed bank robber Doug Morgan. Doug Morgan, welcome to I
Catch Killers.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Oh, I'm supposed to say, it's good to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
That's I gave you your lines. You did sign the
statement bring back memories.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, something like that. No, no, if you want you
want to go there. My brother made all the statements
and they just copied his statements and then tried to
persuade me to sign what the police wrote. And every
time there was a different copper doing the interview, it
was a different vocabulary.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Now you're talking, you're talking the old days, good old days,
bad old days. It depends on what way you look
at things.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
But I look at it positively because still here.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Well that's yea. We've got through it. And you certainly
got through it. You've lived a life. I've been doing
a bit of research on the stuff that you've done
and different things, so you certainly got a story to tell.
And when I was asking you the other day, when
we're having a chat about how you plan your robberies
and that I could feel the adrenaline and the intensity

(02:22):
when you're talking about it, and it reminded me of
the same type of feel that we had when I
was in the stick Ups for a while in the
early nineties. So I don't think we were to cross paths,
but that intensity it was on for young and old
in those days, wasn't it.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, I was just going to throw that back at you.
You imagine if I come out of a bank, ride
a motorbike for about two or three kilometers and go
into the bush. Yep, how are you going to be
to come in at nighttime into the bush looking for me?

Speaker 1 (02:54):
I'm not sure about no. I'll answer that I would
jump at the chance.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Not if you thought I was going to aim you up.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
Oh well, we got things in place to deal with
those situations. But there there wasn't intensity, wasn't it There?
There was something about crime, And I talk now on
a true crime podcast. People don't appreciate how often these
crimes occurred, like bank robberies in the seventies eighties. They
were the crimes, weren't they.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well, and I look back, it's why even we got involved.
Because my brother kept reading it in the newspapers and
continually tried to persuade me that we were up to
that sort of thing. So it was actually the newspapers
that prompted my brother to push forward with it and
to try and involve me in it. So and what
happened actually later on, in about ten years or five
years later, the newspapers and media had meetings with the

(03:47):
Victorian Police, I believe, and decided to stop promoting the
amount of money bank robbers were getting, because they were
actually promoting it as a good job for people to
do if they needed twenty thirty cash. And when you
think about it, it was. And even my brother used
to follow the newspaper articles and basically play up to them.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, well it was. It was front page. And I'm
sure if a bank was held up today in Melbourne
or Sydney, Victoria and New South Wales for that matter,
it would be front page.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Because okay, can we just get a time and date
what I'm here? So I've got an aliboy.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
See, you can't change completely, can you? But I like
the way you're thinking. If you go into it, you've
got to commit. Now we're going to talk about a
lot of stuff today. There's so much to cover and
we're going to talk about we're joking about the robberies.
But I worked on the side of the cops who
worked on the other side, and we both know the

(04:47):
impact that it had on people. And we will talk
about talk about that because we're making a little bit
light at the moment.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
Sure, and I think that's very important. And the only
book that's haven't really been written about me, Jeff Wilkinson
gave the victims a voice.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
And when people ask me about the book, I go
forget everything else. I actually appreciate the fact that Jeff
gave the victims a voice. And when I read about
some of the victims that even helped Ray Coshu were
shot and his best mate was an ambulance guy and
he looked after Ray for the next couple of years
for his hardship. And I rang Jaff and said, can

(05:23):
I meet these people because I really like them?

Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, yeah, no, Well it was a traumatic experience, and
we'll talk about that. And the other thing. We're talking
about a crime that's almost a crime from a bygone era,
like banks aren't getting robbed now. Because I don't want
you to get in trouble because I'm going to ask
you about how you plan a bank robbery, and I
don't want to encourage people to do it, but I

(05:47):
think for our listeners, we've had a lot of people
on the podcast that talk about the robberies and that,
but I want to really break it down with you
on how you plan a robbery if you're happy to.
And I don't want you get any ideas. There's no
money in the banks anymore, so Doug, don't even think
about it.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
The truth is I live about two kilometers from a
bank we cased forty years ago and only just shut
about a month ago, and I damn missed it.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Well, if you ran in the day with a gun
and demanded money, they'd say you've got to download the
app and what's your passwords? So you'd be stuffed.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
The thing is I would have to change my style
a little.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
Bit, adapt with the times. Okay, So let's break it
down just for so the listeners to get a sense
of where you've been, who you are, how many robberies
did you do? And I only want you to talk
about the ones you've been convicted of. I don't want
us to end up in court, but.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
I'm just checking behind me. See if there's anybody with
the old Tellaphone book trying to get me to confess
to another one. Look, the reality, yes, we did about
twenty three twenty four. I'm not even sure of the
amount because it's not really significant in any way the
amount because and it was once. I think my brother
even blame you blokes for us continuing because you couldn't

(07:02):
catch us, so it was your fault, um. And the
reality is, after about twenty three twenty four jobs, there
was not one sceric of evidence against Peter Morgan or
Doug Morgan because the way we plan and we're tactical
maneuvers and playing chess with the police and et cetera,
et cetera. But that was all planned like that. But
the reality is we did do a lot of armed robberies.

(07:25):
We did make it almost impossible for you guys to
get an MO honors or even track us down during
the day. Because when it was put to me about
doing armed robberies, I said to my brother, well, you're kidding,
aren't you. I'm not running out of a bank or
any place blindly not knowing where the local you know,

(07:45):
there could be a copper and pressing, which is one
of our suburbs. He could be having lunch across the
road and I run out of a bank, and so
I said to when well, and I think I explained
it to some people now. I don't walk through long
grass in summer because I don't know who the sakes are.
I don't dive into dark water because I don't know
where the sharks are. And I don't run out of
banks not knowing where the coppers are.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
Okay, So that sounds like there was a bit of
a bit of planning that goes into it. Over those
twenty three or so banks and tabs were your area
of expertise. How long a period were you doing the
robberies for.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
I think, well, I know it was seventy seven, seventy eight,
and seventy nine only I retired in seventy eight and
told my brother such, and which caused a lot of
agro between us because I was trying to get him
to stop doing the arm robbies, because I knew he
was going to get us caught or killed. So I

(08:41):
really only did it for like two seas. I think
they were calling seasons in the press because they suggested
we only did it in winter, and they suggested it
was because of the after dark bend, it might be
scared of snakes in summer. But the truth was our planning.
Even you're talking about the planning, so even that winter

(09:04):
was planned because the helicopter in the city could get
to say a location in half an hour. Right now,
In those days there was rumors that have had thermal
in the helicopters. I don't know if that was really
true or if it was not as good as it
is today. But what we looked at was if they
take half an hour to get the helicopter up there,

(09:25):
the closer we are till dark from the robbery, the
better off we are. So winter is dark in Melbourne
at about five minutes past five. The closer you can
get your target hit time to five minutes past five,
the less time you're in daylight. Now, I'll give you
there's another part of the planning. Why do you want
the darkness? When you were a little child and you

(09:47):
played hide and seek when you're having a family party,
if you ran out of the house as a six
year old and you ran up the street in daylight,
you're easily found. If it's nighttime you run out of
the street, you only have to run around one corner
and you're gone. So part of our planning was making

(10:08):
your your opportunity to catch us limited.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
Okay, I understand the logic behind that. That makes sense.
How do you pick the target bank? Or what are
you looking for?

Speaker 2 (10:21):
All right? What I'm looking for is less vision into
the premises, so no passes by sees what's going on.
So that would be one thing. So like my last
bank had big wooden doors, which would be good if
we shut those once I go in, how to window
into the manager's office, but not into the main foyer,
so there was no vision into the actual bank itself

(10:44):
once the doors were closed. So one thing is let's say,
so that's the bank, then we've got to look at
the main street. What we have to look at is
how many ways out of the main street if something
goes wrong? Has the bank got side doors or a
back door? So with if you find an establishment or
police officers turn up at the front door. I was

(11:06):
thinking about it the other night. I could probably even
come to the front door and let you in long
time in control. But if you've got a side door,
it means we're not going to have a confrontation because
you're going to knock on the front door to start with,
unless you really know I'm there, then you're going to
be more guarded with your approach. So everything is thought
about with the ease of doing the job, because the

(11:30):
ease of doing the job means safety for staff, customers,
myself and also you. Blokes. I was looking after you.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
Well, that's the reality of the game that we're in.
If we came across you, like, guns are going to
be drawn and things are going to happen. That's the reality.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
And I'm going to clarify that right now. I carried
usually an unloaded shotgun. If I was to put loaded,
it had buckshot. Now what do you reckon? My chances
are against you with a thirty eight or forty five, Doug, I.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Want to put this politely, you'd be stuffed, do you reckon?

Speaker 2 (12:06):
I didn't know that, so I had to make sure
my planning was very, very very good.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
So it was it you weren't looking at confrontation. You
wanted to avoid confrontation. By the sounds of the banks
you're targeting, you're looking at Okay, people can't see what's
going on in the bank. So when all the drama's
going on in the bank and your exit to exit strategy.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Sure, And look, even if you look at my personality,
I won't even argue with a girlfriend or a wife,
let alone argue with you blokes.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
So you're not stupid, Doug. You just a bank robber exactly.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
But even like in all my robberies, and this all
astounds you. Yeah, I used to count customers and customers
out because I'm a trained bank teller, so I only
want to deal with people who are being trained in
the situation. I don't want to deal with people that
are going to freak out or even become heroes, because
bank staff will not become heroes. Bank staff are instructed

(13:05):
to get rid of the person as quickly as possible
with the least amount of fuss. Now, only one customer
and all the jobs I did, And that was in
a chaab one night, and I'm a wonderful blake when
I do a robbery. I walked into a chab one
night and it was a bloke putting a bed on. Yep,
I've walked up behind him and lined up. The guy

(13:28):
running the chab looks over this guy's shoulder and sees me,
and I said, it's all right, take his bet. He
might have a winner tonight and I'll wait.

Speaker 1 (13:36):
Right, Okay, that's through story, pretty pretty calm. Is it
true that I read in researching for the podcast that
you and your brother were builders or are builders? Yes,
And there was a time when the money wasn't paid
that someone, and that's not new to the building trade,

(13:57):
where the accounts weren't settled, and your brother decided to
rob a bank.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
Sure. And the funny thing about that is he kept switching.
He was always unreliable as far as work goes, and
I would let him manage our let's say who we
worked for, and I was the main person in the
physical work. And the better of it. He had got
us a new builder and they hadn't paid us for
two house frames. So that was a sizeable amount of
money even in those days. It didn't come through before Easter.

(14:26):
The check they used to send you a check. He said,
I've got no money for Easter. I'm pulling this job.
The check for two houses turned up two days after Easter, right, okay,
after the first robbery, and the.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
Die had already been cast and you were running with it.
Can you remember the first time you went into a
bank to rob it or tab the first time you
went in to do a robbery, what were you wearing?
Did you have a mask on? And how'd you feel?

Speaker 2 (14:55):
So even that all gets down to planning on being
sensible about I always wore something that I wasn't totally
committed to the bank job till I made the final decision.
So I'd wear a hoodie like a very they used
to call them sailors jackets and those very thin plastic
with a hoodie, and I'd have a scarf like a

(15:17):
cowboy around my neck and i'd pull that up as
I went in when I'm not wearing the hoodie over
my head. I'd learn from my father, if you put
bill cream in your hair, my hair will be black.

Speaker 1 (15:29):
Right.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
I'd wear horn written glasses to walk around that had
no lenses but just clear glass. So I'm a blake
with black hair and dark glasses, sorry, dark frame glasses.
So the descriptions are very poor when you're doing a
photo fit. But when I get close to the area
or close to the time, I have to really protect

(15:51):
my identity. As such, I would shave a mustache if
I had one, just in case I was seen two
hours earlier, my brother did didn't follow any of these rules,
and he wore a monkey mask. Now, when you pull
a monkey mask on twenty feet or a foot, it's
one hundred yards away from a bank, you've committed yourself. Now,

(16:12):
what I found out later, our rules were you don't
carry a license or wallet, you shave your mow, et cetera,
et cetera. When he was arrested, he hadn't shaved his
mo a red a red mustache which stands out like
Max Walker, the cricketer. Yeah, and he was carrying his
wallet and identification.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
What makes our job is you?

Speaker 2 (16:34):
Well, the thing is we actually had a let him
shoot you dead, but don't give up rule and don't
have identification. Our planning was actually, if you die today,
that's the end of the after Dark band.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah okay, well that was a good exit plan for
one of you anyway.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
So hopefully it was going to be him.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Okay, So okay, you've gone in there. The weapon of choice?
What did you have the same weapon when you're robbing
these robbing these banks?

Speaker 2 (17:00):
And when I first started, my brother was buying weapons
with his license, and he was paying twenty nine dollars
for a shotgun, or I think he sent one hundred
dollars on a really big jay, which was a twenty
two automatic that looked like a sixteen. But what I
had was, I went he spent twenty nine dollars to
buy a shotgun in those days, I spent fifty nine

(17:22):
dollars to buy an imitation pistol.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Right, right, you go with the citation.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
I spent an extra thirty thirty dollars to make you
bloke safe.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
So with the going in there with that, Okay, say
I walk in there, I'm a cop back in those days,
what was what was going to be? You're going to
pull the gum on the cop or pull the gum
on the security guard and see who can blink first?
What was your plan?

Speaker 2 (17:47):
In a strange way, I'm actually happy I never really
had to answer that question in life. And if I
had to be honest, you want me to be really honest? Yeah,
I try to be honest with people. My brother was
arrested by an unarmed copper. He had three guns, and
my brother twice allowed a copper to walk up with
an arm's length and wrestle for the gun. Twice because

(18:09):
he allowed that to happen. One copper got shot because
you don't wrestle with guns, and people say, well, what
do you see guns? As I go, Well, they're for
shooting rabbits because I lived on a farm. And if
I firing warning shots. So if if you were coming
down a lane way or you're coming at me and
I have the chance, I will fire a warning shot.

(18:30):
Now if you continue, if you've got your gun drawing,
well this is going to be it's going to end
badly for me because you've got a bigger He's simple,
you're a bigger gun. Now let's say you're too far
away to have a shot at me or whatever. I'll
tell you what I would have done. I'm not going
to hide from it because I was a bangrover. I
am not going to jail and so I really have to.
I heard they weren't a nice place. Now I'll tell

(18:53):
you what I do. I would fire a warning shot
so while you take cover, I can move to the left.
When I go to the left, I'm going to then
try and skirt to the right without you seeing me. Now,
if it continues, I might have to fire a second
warning shot to continue my evasion. It's all about when
people said to me, what's it about. It's about Therefore,

(19:14):
shooting rabbits or warning shots. That's the end of the story.
Now I have to scare you enough to make you
take cover so I can avoid being captured. If it
came down to a gun battle, I know I'm going
to lose, so I'm going to avoid that at all cost.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
Okay, so it wasn't a fatalistic Well, if the cops come,
it's on them. See who walks out. You weren't going
to go that fat.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
I don't think there's any crime in the world that's
worth hurting another human being. I even in jail, even
on the streets, I've never attacked anybody unless they physically
put their hand on me. I actually run that rule
from John Wayne. There was a movie where he said,
don't transgress others and don't let them try agress you.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
Life theories from John Wayne. It's not that not that
bad a theory. But well, I've been in the stick ups,
in the armhold up squad, and also it was a
local detective. Been involved in a lot of arrests where
people were going in to do banks and we've come
at them, especially with the tactical side of things, jump
out of the van and you might have one shotgun

(20:23):
and we got ten shotguns pointing at you, and things
settled down pretty quickly. But we'd go in there knowing
that we could overpower, so it doesn't end up in
a shoeout.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Sure, well, you've overlooked the fact we were planning. This
is not you what we did. We went to town's
and my brother would go and do weekend trips all
around Victoria. He would note how many police cars, how
many banks are in the town. Now, there's another thing
you'll probably if you're probably not a country copper. Yeah,
but in the old days, country coppers might have to

(20:53):
go to the next town where the court cases were,
even for domestic things or even speeding fines. So sometimes
there was no copper in the town because he was
in the next town thirty kilometers away.

Speaker 1 (21:07):
How much how much reconnaissance would you do before you
did a job? Like, I know what you're saying. Like
you might say, well, the cops at this trial, that's.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
Well, have you ever heard a bank robber talk about that?

Speaker 1 (21:18):
No? I haven't.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
That's why I'm asking, Well, the bank I did last
I had been into that bank three years earlier, before
I was a bank robber, because I was a bank teller.
I walked in and I looked around. I was getting
changed for the phone, and those days, that's what you did,
you went to a bank and got changed for the phone.
And I looked at their just as a bank teller.

(21:41):
Occasually looking around the bank, I noticed their procedures were
very slack. I noticed where the alarm lights were. They
used to have a little red lights in the foyer
and in the bank manager's office. I know all these things,
and also the regulations, all your rules that you run
by as a bank teller, that you'll take the money
that you need for your chill and you should leave

(22:02):
most of the other trays still in the safe. This bank,
I observed that they had excessive cash lying behind the
bank teller on other shelves, and I noted that that
this was a national bank. Now to add to that,
I remember walking into the very biggest national bank in
Geelong one day and observed the same lack of procedure

(22:25):
and noted that if years later, when I became a banker,
I went, that's good inside information about a bank if
they're not running to procedures. So that bank was picked
out because of what I knew about their procedures.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
So when you go into a bank, then you've sussed
amount you know about the procedures and all that. Was
it a case that you were going into rob and
grab as much cash as you could that wasn't locked
away in the safe or did you put the gun
to someone's head and I want the safe open? Sort
of what went on in the in the banks.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Look, it's funny you say that, because I'm still a
believer that my body language and the way I talked
to people was more powerful than the gun in that
particular job. We're just talking about the one that I
knew the procedures were low. While they were taking the
money out of the safe and put into a big
box and brought to the counter, I put my gun

(23:18):
on the counter, just left it there while I was
reloading the money. And the funny thing was I had
brought it. In the old days, when you went on aeroplanes,
they'd give you a TAA bag or something like a
shoulder bag. My bag wasn't big enough for the loot, right,
so I had to actually borrow a bag from them. Okay,
So they got me a bag and etc. So that

(23:41):
soh half the robbery. There was no guns point, There
was no guns in my hand. How long were you
in the bank for on that one with that national
Well some people say it's a world record. I was
there for twenty four minutes.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
Twenty four minutes, that's to my way of thinking, that's
a recipe for disaster. Twenty four minutes.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
Well not if you know what's not if you know
the town and one copper and did you have the
did you have the doors locked? Like the front doors
were locked. The alarms hadn't gone off, ye, right, three
minutes past three, closing at three, so there's no suspicion
in the town. I actually said to them lock the
front doors because I know that the alarms haven't gone

(24:20):
off and they won't be going off, and I've come
for the money and we'll all be going home tonight.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
What sort of conversation that you have with the people
when they're in there in the bank.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
Sometimes i'd mentioned the traffic was bad.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yep, what as in just a general put them off guard?
Normal to you the same way as I talk to them.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
But I don't change. This is me.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Did anyone ark up at you.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
No, I think really your presence. I think if you
run in like look, do you know what I'm going
to give you? What my opinion of me, Me being
a bank robber and all the other bank robbers, they're
just bloody laborers because they're no good at anything else.
So I don't have great respect for myself being a
bank robber or anybody that runs into a bank because

(25:08):
I grew up, perhaps with a romantic thought that the
only decent crook was the old save cracker.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
Well that was a pecking order at one stage, wasn't it.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
The breakers absolutely absolutely, and to running with a gun cruse,
I can't rob saves.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Yeah, yeah. And I suppose the reputation of the bank
robbers dropped down a bit when the drug trade came in,
and that was junkies robbing banks and just grabbing a
knife and walking past the bank and running in that
type of stuff.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
Sure, but even with a lot of there's some very
well known boys that were in the teams in Melbourne
and the seventies and a few of them got shot
by coppers by the way, um, and that started the
war down here between the armor of squad and like
wall street and all these sort of things. There's always
backstories to everything. Now, I don't condone my soul shooting

(26:00):
your side in any shape or form, And I actually
don't even condone you guys shooting us unless you've been
put in that situation, which means if I drive you
to that, I can't really complain. But he did turn
into that here. But what I was about to say
was through my twelve years or so behind bars with

(26:22):
let's say all that we'll call them the elite MELBN gangs, Right, yeah,
I found out a lot of them would take drugs
or alcohol before a job.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Well, that was going to be one of my questions, Like,
what before you go in the bank, You've got to
go in with the knowledge that could go shit. There
could be a cop in there, a security guard, and
someone's got a gun on you, and that could be
the last moment you spent in this world. What was
the adrenaline like before you win in My brother has.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
Been quoted in press all over the world because he
says silly things like that and said that the greatest
druggle in the world adrenaline. And I was high on it,
and you know, I sort of looked at that and went,
what is he talking about? Because I try to explain
this to people, because I've done tours in jails on that,

(27:12):
and I try to bring it down so people will
understand that could not possibly nder. Look, I don't know
what it's like to have cancer, So when I'm trying
to explain to you what a bank is like being
doing at bank, I've got to bring it down to
something that you might understand. Now, a bank, to me
is black and white, exactly like in the building trade.
If I have to get onto rickety scaffle, I am

(27:35):
taking a calculated risk and I have to summons myself
up to if the risk is worth nailing that piece
of timber up. And I've probably been more worried or
more at risk on a high scaffle than if I
plan a job properly, because the planning, if you stick

(27:56):
to the planning. And I know how many coppers are
in the town, like even one robbery I did, I
remember walking up to the police station beforehand and putting
a screwdriver through his tire so the local copper could
not even jump in his car, and if he did,
he would get about thirty yards and go and then
start running down the street. So there was a lot

(28:17):
more to it than people can possibly imagine. If you're
really planning or becoming a tactician, do you look at
the type of people in the bank too, Like if
there's yeah, a bloke there, you think he could be trouble.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
This is before we had security guards, but because they
used to back in those days too, they used to
the bank tellers or the manager with a gun as well.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
Absolutely, I was trained. I was a bank teller, but
I was seventeen, so I wasn't allowed to actually have
a gun, but we were trained, and everybody else around
me had the option of having a gun at their desk,
even behind the bank tellers. People at desks in those
days would have a gun. So I'm aware all that.
But the staff is instructed and the same as my

(29:04):
training as a bank teller, take notes, get rid of
the person as quickly as possible, and do not use
your gun because if you hit a customer, the bank's
going to be in a lot of trouble. So we
were told not to use weapons. Yeah, it was a
wild West days. It was potential for disaster, and also
just having common sense, I would observe what happens in

(29:28):
other robberies. And usually, and you might know this, or
you might have observed it yourself, that occasionally there will
be an old man in a robbery who takes of
fence to young LUTs robbing his shop or bank.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Well, that was the question when I said, have you
ever had anyone cup? I was thinking an old man
or even an old lady. Don't be so rude, young man,
that type of attitude that comes back at some people
have gone into banks to Robert.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
Sure, and that's why I counted customers in and out
so I could get rid of what are you trying
to do? Seriously, if you're serious about it as robbery
and not a violent robbery or not causing damage physically,
you have to look at all those angles, and if
you follow those procedures we had, you'll love this one.

(30:17):
I call it our rules of engagement.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
Okay, Well, it's good. They have rules and they work.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
My rules of engagement was the first one. If you
go to the town and it's too hot, you'll walk away.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Geez.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
That's almost like a line out of a movie. I
can remember, so I'll.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
Away instinct instinct about something doesn't feel right about this
that's what you're talking about with it too.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Well, well, it's not so much that with us, because
we were so hot that they were watching tairb's at
nighttime with local coppers getting over time. We were that
hot that they would be circling the town in their cars.
My brother did a chairb one night while the copper
was refueling his car at the service station, so he
knew there was a cop there, and yeah, he waited

(30:58):
for him to go to the service station. Now, even
in the town I lived in at Foster, I was
in the pub one night and the boys come running
and go, oh, they think the after dark band is
going to hit the tab and Foster tonight. And I
go what, And I go, what are you talking about?
And they go, Lowie who was the local copper. He's
sitting in a shop straight across from the tab with

(31:21):
the lights off, looking through the window, and I go,
you kidding, aren't you? And they didn't know I was
the after dark band. So I said, let's get a drink.
And I got more drink filled up and I said,
and I've led a group of three or four of
them that were telling me this stuff outside in the
street opposite the tab and leans against the window that

(31:41):
the local copper was behind, and I'm going, nah, I
don't reckon, he's ever robbed the place this far from Melbourne.
And they go, well, he must think that he's coming.
I said, ah, look if we have to have a
be on bet and he doesn't do.

Speaker 1 (31:53):
It, okay, Well that's an unfair bit. So that's you
and your brother. So the after dark bandit that was
the cops were chasing what they believed one guy. But
you've got a twin brother called Pete that you and
him were doing the robberies, and sometimes you were confusing
the police by the fact that two places were getting
hit so quickly. But the same type of mo and

(32:16):
appearance and manner.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
Look, if I answered that, I mean I'm not insulting
police as such. I'm insulting what your procedures are. Now
I do a job. You you bring in the roadblocks
and the searchers into the close area. So what happens
outside your little web of nets around that? Okaw? We

(32:40):
set up a perimeter, Yeah, yes, perimeter right, I've forgotten
the words. And then three or four minutes outside the perimeter,
another job goes off.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
What do you do. Yeah, but Doug, in fairness, you
were a cheating There was two of you. We thought
there was one of you.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Well, sorry, I didn't know there was a handbog.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
I am the rules. That was ungentlemanly conduct.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
All right, I'll give you. I'll give you the best one.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
There was one night I'll do a country job. I
know the police station was at the end of a
long bridge crossing a river, so I know they're going
to roadblock it on the bridge, which is a logical spot,
makes sense. They had their forty four gallon drum with
a fire going right, all standing there talking there police
stuff and laughing and probably checking their gun every now

(33:25):
and to make sure it was loaded and cocked or whatever.
And they're checking the traffic coming across the bridge. So
I get to the bridge on underneath. It was a
really bad winter's night, and the river had actually expanded
about three times as normal size was running rapid. I
can't come across the bridge. I've got to swim the river.
So I swim the river right, get swept down stream,

(33:49):
and I look up as I go under the bridge.
I look up and I can see you blakes, cheery
and chatty.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
By the big fire drifting down the river for a.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
Moment, I think I seek help from the coppers so
I don't drown. Yeah, and I went stuff, and I'd
rather drown fair. I got swept down the river, get
to the bank and pull myself in the weeds, because like,
you see these things in movies, but you don't think
it's really going to happen. So I grab the reason.
I'm trying to get myself back on the dry ground
on the other side. So in floating or being swept

(34:20):
down the river, I work my way sideway, so I'm
actually getting to the other side of the river, so
I'm still trying to achieve my goal. I walk up
near enough to them in the darkness at nighttime. Nighttime's
covering me again. I walk one hundred yards directly along
the same street where they're blocking. My brother's been sitting
there for half an hour watching the coppers in the

(34:42):
getaway car. I hop in and go. Lily drowned and
I said, car, let's go. He said, oh, let's see
here if I'm just watch them right okay, And I said, oh,
I'm pretty cold and tired, let's go. So he had
been watching them, watching me or waiting for.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
Me when you're doing the robberies, and just to fill
people in on it so they understand there was when
you're doing those spade of robberies. Over a couple of
years there were banks going off a couple of times
a month. The media got hold of it. Then the
term was as usual with a series of bank robbers
at different different titles. They get you guys got the
after Dark bandit because you're you're robbing the banks late

(35:21):
in the afternoon, as you've explained here, which that was
a fine moniker to have for your the after Dark Bandit.
But there was in fact two of you. We did.
We did.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
We worked as a team, even though we've never been
what you'd expect. There was always a lot of rivalry
growing up. Yeah, and even a lot of violence even
between us before we were back robbers.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
Okay, so in operating together with one be the gatherway driver,
the other one in the bank.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
All right, Okay, Well I've just mentioned I've swum the
river to get past the U blokes. I keep saying
you blokes, and you weren't even there. Fair, But we'll
coat you all with the same blue color now, Yes,
So that night. He was the getaway driver once I
got past the roadblock. So the getaway driver. If you're

(36:07):
talking about a second vehicle, which is the normal procedure,
we'll keep like that first vehicle, second vehicle, or sometimes
if I didn't think we could use a vehicle, and
because there was no way to get back with a
vehicle or a motorbike, there was one night I actually
ran thirty three kilometers after a job to get back
to Geelong to avoid you guys, because there was only

(36:30):
one main road back. Okay, So what my procedure was
that how do I keep up a steady direction at
nighttime in scrubb or paddocks. Now very easy.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
One.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
If there's a railway line, I can follow a railway
line because coppers don't search railway lines, they search streets
or roads. Because we actually went past a big roadblock
one night, or thirty yards across the paddock in the
railway line, we could actually hear the conversation of the roadblock. Yeah,
and we're on the railway line laughing at them. Because

(37:06):
when you're actually doing the jobs, it's not during the getaway,
which might take a couple of hours. If you do
it like that there is a bit of jest going on,
a bit of like, oh, look at those loser that
over there. They wouldn't know where we are. And even
that night that actually brings up a point. We used
to get back to Melbourne and go in the city
and buy the newspapers at midnight, yeah, to read about

(37:28):
it if we've been caught or not okay, and usually
it would say something like we're expecting we've got them around.
I got him surrounded in the area and we're expecting
to have him cornered and caught.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Well, I don't know, I see, and it's fair corp,
fair cop. You can you can laugh at the cops.
I'll throw a couple of back. I've been in situations
where and granted I had to sit in the van
the whole day, but knowing the bank's going to be robbed,
but then as the crew have gone in there robbed
the bank, we're jumping now the van in now black

(38:02):
overalls and shotguns and we've had the victories there. I've
had another one in a saw the semi rural bank,
just a local operation, and that was we got the
tip off that the bank was going to be held
up and I was in the bank waiting for him.
So they're the good victory. So you know, sometimes you win,
sometimes we win.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
Well, I'm going to applud you blokes. Now I'm going
to give you a little little feather for your cat.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
All right.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
People are sad to me as well known that the
talk around was we had them running around the circles
and after twenty three jobs, they didn't have one sceric
of evidence, and even for me when they went rated
my place, there was still no evidence on me physical.
People say, you had them running around in circles, you
know how I always answer that, I go, but guess
what they had the last say.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
Well, that's the thing, isn't it. Doug and I think
we mentioned when we're talking the other day that movie Heat,
and I like the way the dynamics of that movie.
It's an old movie, and I'm not sure if the
saying comes from there, but it's a very true saying.
In policing. We can make one mistake after another, but

(39:10):
you've just got to make one mistake and you're caught.
And that's so it's stacked against you, really, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
Well I compare it to this. I actually said this
to somebody yesterday. Look, I talk very freely, honestly to
anybody that asked me a question, unless it's about something
I haven't been convicted for.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
I deny that alligator.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
They said, like they were talking about that, and I said, well,
it's like this. I'm at the races and I've backed
five winners in a row. When am I going to lose?
Because you always lose if you gamble.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
Good analogy if you go too long.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
When you keep going back into and look, another analogy
for you is, what is it like robbing banks? Well,
it's like going fishing. You hope you'll get the big one.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
What's the What's one that surprised you? You got more
than you expected than what's one that disappointed you?

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Well, there was disappointment with my brother's first job. He
ran in on his very first job and got three
hundred and twenty dollars and he had stolen the Falcon
GT to do the job in and rode it off right, okay,
And even in those days, the car was worth four
and a half gramd. We'd be worth one hundred and
fifty now. And he put it in a ditch and
I said, well, you're not much of a bank robber,

(40:30):
you get three hundred bucks and he said he wouldn't
even the safe. I said, well that's your shows. You're
not much of a bank Robert so anyway. But the
reality is I retired in seventy eight after the last
job I did was a bank at Warburton. And I
talk about it because of an actual fact. I'm supposed
to be this big bank robber. The truth is I

(40:50):
only ever did one bank myself, and it was the
biggest bank we did because I had inside information. Remember
I saw all the money on the back and I
got thirty nine thousand something and that was enough to
buy two houses in suburbs of Melbourne. So I jokingly
talk about two bags. I had one brick veneer house

(41:11):
and one bag and a weatherboard house and the other bag.
As I come out of the.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
Bank, when you got money like that, did that make
you think, Okay, my luck's going to run out if
I keep going along this path. Did you make a
conscious decision and go, Okay, I'm going to get out
of the game.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
Well it was it a dickne It's actually a very
good question, and it's a question about my whole life actually,
and a question about reality. Now, after that job, I
get away on the motorbike. I even my planning was
so good. The back roads on that day were gravel

(41:48):
roads and the bike was leaving tire marks as it
was a wet day. So I spent about an hour
criss crossing through different intersections so that you blokes wouldn't
know if I went left, right or straight on. Now
what I did on the actual getaway, I knew that
I needed to get off the road without leaving tire marks.

(42:08):
I was using a two fifty honder and I must
have been a lot fitter in those days, because I
pulled the bike up on a hardened part of the gravel,
lifted the bike off the road, carried the bike across
to the fence, and lifted it over a fence so
it wasn't even near a gate, hit it in the
scrub so you didn't even have any tire marks, and

(42:31):
then proceeded into the scrub, so you would be looking
for a gate that was open or my tire marks
showing which way I went. So my planning was so good,
even in the necessity because of a rainy day, I
would come up with a way that you couldn't follow me.
I spent two hours, and that was three o'clock. Was

(42:54):
in October. It would have been dark about maybe I
don't know about daylight saving certain but let's say it
was darker six o'clock before dark. I was sitting under
a big gum tree and the helicopter had got there
and it was buzzing around, and I was listening to
the helicopter and thinking, nah, this is a good gum tree.
You're not going to see me. So I was just

(43:16):
casually having a rest after a day's hard work. Sorry,
I had to drop. It was a pretty hard day,
but I lean up since three o'clock. That was his job,
it's anyway. So I'm counting the money. I get up
to thirty nine nine hundred, and I realized what that
means because a friend of mine has just bought a
house for eighteen thousand. So I know what I've got
in my bag. And I didn't think what you just

(43:37):
thought then, like that is that enough money or whatever?
Two things went through my mind. This is a lot
of money. One, I'll be honest, I went, I looked
up into the sky. I couldn't see the helicopter. I went, boys,
I'm armed up with thirty nine grand. You will not
be catching me today. Okay, you're not taking my thirty
nine grand. Like oh, I was going to say, like

(44:02):
a dog protecting his dinner from you know where sometimes
you feed the dog, they're even defensive against you because
you might be taking it back. Well, you weren't getting
my thirty nine grand back that day.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
Now you're a dog.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
And that's a bad analogy. But like I don't care
in criminal circles. That's a very bad analogy. But what
I did think about I thought about my brother, and
I thought about his ego and he was out of control.
And what was happening was every time he did a bank,
he would buy another race horse. So I saw that

(44:38):
in his mind, banks meant another race horse. So I've
actually said to people, Ray Kosh who got shot. He
got shot so my brother could feed race horses to
buy chaff.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
Well Ray being the being the cop that got shot.
And we'll talk about talk about that.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
But you see what I'm thinking. My thoughts now are
we're doing all this for feed race horses or that's
why he's doing it? That I thought, if I continue,
If I continue, now, let's say that money was enough
to change the normal life. If I continue, when I've
got money in the bag to change a normal life,
maybe go to New Zealand or whatever. Now, if I continue,

(45:21):
I've got some sort of psychological problem.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
That's what you That's what you were thinking.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Guess what. I quit? Yeah, And I am so happy
that I can sit here today and say to you
I quit the year before. My brother continued. God us
caught shot a copper and give me up six seven
months later.

Speaker 1 (45:42):
Okay, So because I always always wonder about Yeah, I
understand that the motivation for money and people doing it
and they make their money. I've come across a lot
of people in the whole range of criminal activities about
making money, whether it's drug deal in robberies or whatever
that I'm thinking, why don't you just walk away from it?

(46:02):
Like you've got everything you need, you could easily retire.
But my observation is they get addicted to the adrenaline,
addicted to the game and the thrill of it all.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
Well, I totally agree. Yeah, what I can say to you, honestly,
the jail didn't break me or stop me being a
bank robber.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Yeah, I did. You stopped before?

Speaker 2 (46:22):
Now, while I was doing the chan or eleven years
or twelve years in jail. All I used to think
about is this is damn inconvenient, seeing as I've already
made the decision. So I actually thought, surely you can
just let me go because I've already made the decision.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
Look, Doug, I reckon there'd be a hard one to
explain to the judge. No, nothing to worry about here,
your honor, I've already decided that bank robbin is not
not for me.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Think don't you think you would have at least given
me a little bit of hearing?

Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, he would have given you hearing. Then maybe another
couple of years get there with yeah. Yeah, But you know,
I just I reflect on some of the the robberies
when people go in and Christopher Bins, who you would
have come across the badness, A well known Robert from
down Victoria. He escaped from prison and came up our way.
And that's I was in the stick up when he

(47:13):
was arrested up here. And from memory it's gone back
a long time, but he'd come into a bank and
with a shotgun and led a shot into the roof
just to get everyone's attention. And it was intense. It
was violent and all that, and we got onto him
and I think we called him about two or three
days later a tactical arrest. But that type of robbery

(47:34):
just strikes fear into people with a gun going off there.
But he's and I did sit down with him and
talk to him, and he's thought process was, I'm going
to get their attention. Everyone's going to comply and it's
going to be less risky if everyone complies, because it's
going to blow up if if they don't. What's your
take on that type of robbery?

Speaker 2 (47:55):
Sure, and my brother in a way, he did things
differently to me.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
He would walk into a bank with a bigger weapon,
bigger looking weapon than me, so he's trying to portray
the violence with the look of the gun. He was
actually physical with people, actually pushing them around, so he
was more dominating. But Chris, going back to Chris, there
was a gang that you used to always should into

(48:22):
the ceiling on every job. But there was that was
sort of a thing where like, let's make a statement
when we walk in. My attitude was, well, why don't
we just plan it better than walking in with five customers?
Now five customers and four staff or five stuff. That's
ten people. Could you imagine trying to control ten people

(48:44):
when you've only got two eyes?

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Oh you can't. If they all panicked and rend their
separate ways, it'll be very hot.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
Yeah, exactly. So if you lose control, things go wrong.
So I would not walk into that situation. But look,
I understand everybody robs me differently, but that's not my
nature to scare people. And so my attitude was I
don't know, but I just feel I did things differently,
even to my brother, because I'm more go in right, Okay,

(49:15):
you know, it's been a bad day so far. The
traffic was bad. Sorry I'm a bit late. I've come
in three minutes after you were closing. Sorry you're not
having a cup of tea. But I'm going to rob
you that I'm going to leave.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
Stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
So it really was totally different. I know what you're
talking about. I know the other styles where it's like
the boiler suit gangs running in in numbers, scaring the
hell out of everybody. Maybe they learned that from TV shows.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
Well I was, and you know, and we will talk
about it, the psychological damage. But there was a crew
getting around at one stage that there go was to
come in, I'll get their attention. I'm going to shoot
this lady customer in the leg and yeah, that type
of stuff. And they they needed to be brought down
the rivalry with the tole up squad and the bank

(50:03):
robbers and that. But that's just not well.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
I actually agree with you. There's no amount of money
that gives me the right to hurt somebody.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah, money doesn't have the same value as a person
and even as a banker. But you got to remember
I was a bank teller, so.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
May you've mentioned that. Talk us through that. So your career,
you could have been working behind the bank. How did
you get from bank teller the bank robber?

Speaker 2 (50:30):
Well, what happened to My father had been robbed the
Bank of nineteen forty nine, had a big shootout in Eltham.

Speaker 1 (50:35):
Cost It runs in the family, though you didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
Before I was born. And he was nineteen and he'd
broken into a bank at nighttime at Greensboro and he
was a burglar in those days as a bit of
side money. So his idea was to break into the bank,
find the keys, and get the safe at nighttime while
upstairs the bank. I'm still the building's still there, and
the bank and my my family or my dad and

(51:01):
his family grew up as children in Greensboro, so it
was the local bank. So he goes in at nighttime.
He can't find the keys, but he finds in one
of the drawers he finds a twenty five, which is
a very small pistol. So he leaves the bank with nothing.
The people are upstairs sleeping. He leaves, and now he's
got a pistol. A week later, he goes and I

(51:25):
wasn't alive, but I'm assuming he looks in his hand
he's got a pistol. Well, I'm now a bank robber.
So he goes to a bank about ten kilometers away
from whether he was raised, and he runs in with
a pistol and demands the money, and then a gun
battle started and he left with no money. So it
was actually an attempt at armed robbery, and there was

(51:47):
gunplay and between him and the bank tellers there were
seventeen shots fired, which I've been told out weighs the
ok Carrell by one shot and the same time period.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
I'm not I'm not sure on the figures there, but
well I checked it either seen. Seveneen rounds is a
lot of gunplay and.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
They were shooting with thirty eighth and he oud of
twenty five.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
So he did time for that, did he?

Speaker 2 (52:16):
He did three years because his best mate who became
his brother in law, give him up.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
Right, So, just because your old man was locked up
for breaking into a bank, how did that make you
a bank teller? Well?

Speaker 2 (52:28):
What happened all his life when we went to New
Zealand that's another story. When he was there he got
into a bit of trouble financially, started breaking in the
post office a nighttime, which I used to go along
with him and help him wiel the saves out when
I was thirteen at nighttime.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
All right, So he'd take you and your brother.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
My brother very rarely volunteered. He really wasn't a strong
member of the team as such.

Speaker 1 (52:51):
But you would go with your old man to rob
the po If.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
He said I was anybody want to come, I'd always
put my hand Uneah.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
Yeah, it's not the best role models for you there, Doug.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
Oh come, you know they do that to who I
love my dad. Look, I'll tell you what, Actually, I'll
never blame my dad. Most people will say Look, I'll
tell you how I'll defend my dad. He was naive
to what was to happen. Right, He was naive to
what we learned from him. Right. And I'll applaud my father.

(53:26):
He was a brilliant father. I love my father. But
he was a little bit naive to what he was
teaching us and what it could end up in. Now,
to clarify that, he would never have dreamt that we
would be bank robbers or anything. He was on the
run while I was a bank teller. He was about
to go on the run because he'd ripped off a
real estate agent and put the deposits from the houses

(53:47):
in his own bank.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
Again.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Yeah, okay, Now the night he said to me, we're
on the run again. I was a bank teller and
my float, because banks run to regulation, my float was
two and a half grand. I was a junior bank
in the city. I used to play the game of
getting my float in my chill up as high as
I could. The ninety said in two days, we've got

(54:11):
to leave. I said, that's okay. I've got eleven and
a half grand, am I unit. Why don't you come
in and rob me and I'll give you half an
hour start right, Yeah, I instigated that conversation.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
He looked at me and said, you will not do
anything like that. He was on the run for fifteen
hundred dollars, which was a fair bit of money in
those days. The average wage was about eighty bucks a
week and I was offering him eleven and a half grand.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
But he wasn't able to do it because I didn't
want to drag you into it exactly.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
So people might criticize my dad, But doesn't that answer
the critics?

Speaker 1 (54:49):
Yeah? Yeah, okay, Well we might take a break here, Doug,
and when we get back, we're going to talk about
how you were arrested, how it came unstuck, and I'll
ask you how your relationship is with your brother now,
because I get the sense there was a bit of
issues issues there on how you got caught, then your

(55:11):
time in Pentridge and you did what the eleven years.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
I tell everybody twelve. Jeffrey at Wilkinson, who's brought crime
stoppers to Australia, rings me up and goes, I heard
you say twelve again. He goes, it was ten years,
ten months. I said, look, jeff I'm glad to have
a little bit of exaggeration, Mate, twelve sounds really good.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
Don't don't let the truth get in the way of
a good story.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
Well, I did time with Shopper, so you and I
went to.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
School with him and a couple of things. And then
we will talk about because we've talked about the robberies.
But I think it's good, you know, ex hold up
cop speaking to a ex robber and just getting your
take on it. It's a fascinating chat. But we'll also
talk about your remorse for the impact it had on victims,

(55:56):
because I know that's something important and a message that
you have the people about don't waste your life. How
you survived prison, including you're smuggling And if I mentioned
Jelly Knight, were allowed to talk about that.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
Well, I'll tell you the truth.

Speaker 1 (56:11):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
Forty something years ago they grabbed me when they found
some Jelly Knight in the jail. Out of fifteen hundred presents,
they grabbed me and put me in isolation, threatened me
of an extra ten years if I wouldn't spill the beans.
And I didn't spell the beans. I was the only
person under investigation out of fifteen hundred. Nobody's ever been
convicted and nobody knows the truth except for me.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
OK.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
So guess what you won't be getting any answers today?

Speaker 1 (56:36):
Well you wait till I started not where's the phone books? No,
we don't use them anymore. We'll also talk about your
art and what you're doing now that you're spending time
back in Penridge Prison, but not the way you spend
it in the first time. So we'll talk about that
in part too.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
Sure. And I was while you were talking, and I
was just considering what I would have done if I
had to met you.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
Well, it might have been interesting, mightn't it.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
And I'll tell you one thing, Ray Coosh, you got shot?

Speaker 1 (57:06):
Yes? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
Last year, his daughter Yep sent me a message on
messenger and I've lost it that she's followed my life.

Speaker 1 (57:15):
Yeah, and she applauds me. Well, that must mean a lot.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
I rang up Jeff Welkins, who was working with you
boys as a crime writer. I said, kill me now
because you have no idea what that meant to me.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
Yeah. Well, I think it's important to us having chats
like this, And yeah, redemption is a big part of
people make mistakes. You made a lot of mistakes and
frequent mistakes. But yeah, it's a long life, and you
judged on not just one aspect of your life, sir.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
Yeah, but there's no such thing as redemption. Yeah, there's
only the last ten seconds of your life when you
get to judge yourself. Yeah, because nobody has the right
to judge you.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
We're getting deep now. I'm going to have a break.
I'm going to think about a smart ours answer to
come back to you with that one, and we'll be
back for part too shortly.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
Oh, you've got as a phone book.