BONUS: Bondi Shooting: Inside Australia’s worst terrorist attack

Thousands of people fled for safety at Australia’s iconic Bondi Beach as two gunmen opened fire during a Hanukkah celebration. In a matter of minutes, the shooters killed 15 innocent people including a 10-year-old girl, and 40 others are in hospital. 

Former counter terrorism detective Peter Moroney joins Gary Jubelin on this bonus episode of I Catch Killers to explain how the massacre unfolded, whether it could have been prevented and what happens next.

Forensic psychologist Dr Nathan Brooks also joins Gary to give an insight into the minds of people who commit these acts of terror.

Listen to more from Peter Moroney here and here, or catch up on the recent episodes with Dr Nathan Brooks here and here.

 

Want to hear more from I Catch Killers? Visit news.com.au.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see a side of life. The average person is
never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.

(00:45):
Welcome to a bonus episode of Ye Catch Killers. This
is an episode I wish we weren't having. At the
time of recording this episode, there's been a terrorist attack
at Bondo Beach less than twenty four hours ago. We
don't know exactly what this has happened, but this is
what we do know. About six forty five pm on Sunday,
the fourteenth of December, two gunmen shot multiple people at

(01:09):
Bondo beach. It appears the intended targets were people gathered
to celebrate the first day of the Jewish Honiker religious festival.
At this stage, one gunman has been killed. The other
is in custody and is in a critical condition. But
before the gunmen were neutralized by police, they had shot
and killed multiple people. At this stage, fifteen innocent people

(01:32):
had deceased and there's more than forty people that are
in hospital, some of with critical injuries. The incident has
been declared a terrorist incident by a New South Wales
Police Commission of mal Lanyon, the New South Wales Premier
and the Australian Prime Minister has condemned what occurred down there.
This truly is a sad day for all of Australia.

(01:54):
It's probably the worst terrorist incident we've had on home soil,
and my heart go out to all the victims, the
people who have lost their lives, their loved ones, the
injured people, anyone that was caught up in this senseless violence.
This really is a sad day for this country. Peter Moroni,
thanks for joining me on I Catch Killers.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Welcome.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Thanks, Sorry it's in these circumstances and yeah, it's less
than twenty four hours since the Bondai massacre, which has
been referred to the moment has occurred. I thought i'd
get you back on the podcast because of your expertise
in counter terrorism. You're a counter terrorist detective for a
very long time and worked on some major investigations with

(02:36):
the New South Wales Police and the work that doing
since retiring from the police is very much in keeping
with that. I just want to get your thoughts. So
the purpose of the podcast here is to give people
an understanding. I think we've all been shocked what we
started to witness on a Sunday afternoon, hot summer's night

(02:56):
in Sydney where we're all settling down the phone star's pinging,
or if you're listening to the media, you're starting to
get at reports of the gunman or shots fired. That
was the first thing I heard, shots fired down in Bondi.
I thought a bit strange, but that didn't realize the
significantance of it. Then I got a text from my

(03:18):
daughter dad, have you seen what's going on in Bondi?
And that made me switch on the media and get
a sense of it. When did you find out about it?

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Probably most people made I am monster.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
I was having a beer at a maze place and
I've got a text I was one of the media
out there's actually and I just thought, I doesn't it's
not real. Yeah, it should be all right sort of thing,
or perhaps you know, not to downplay, but perhaps another
gang related shooting.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah that's going on.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
But as you say, the phone lit up and didn't
stop so and then you started to scroll through social
media and in came the links and got sent through
a few videos and there it started to resonate, and
you know, probably like a lot of people. Mate, you know,
we've been around for a little bit of time. But
I think the first thing was anger at just a

(04:10):
cowardness of what I was seeing on the video. Anger
was probably the first thing that stayed in my mind
for about an hour.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Just the random nature of it. You know, we've both
been in the police. We understand the power of firearms
and the damage they can do, and seeing long long
arms being used in the area like Bondai Beach on
a Sunday afternoon, that anger is probably a natural reaction
to it.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, you know, look at.

Speaker 3 (04:38):
Not any probably different to any other bloke that's been
out of the cops now, but you still resonate and
understand that kind of act and what that type of
act is going to do obviously not only physical to
the people that are being shot, but the emotional issues
that are going to torment those victims, the victims families

(05:01):
and no doubt the first responders as well. Mate, that
there's a lot left over after that first shot rings out.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
My understanding is it's the biggest a terrorist incident in
Australia on home soil. Would that be fair to say
that's it?

Speaker 3 (05:16):
Certainly as I understand it that at this point in time,
as you and I speak, I understand there is sixteen
people that have unfortunately passed away up to forty that
are injured. There is no other and it's been called
for what it is. It's been called the Terrorist Act
and it would certainly have to be well, it is
the biggest terrorist based incident in Australia has ever seen
to date.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, and we're hoping we're going to avoid that. With
your expertise in counter terrorism, you understand the consequences of
when something like this can occur and the efforts that
and I know you've been involved in some investigations where
this type of thing has been prevented on large scales.
What's your sense or how difficult it is for police

(05:59):
to prevent these type of type of attacks.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
It's a really tough question to answer. If I could
put it in the most simplest terms and explain it
is that law enforcement and Asia have dropped the ball.
And what I mean by that, respectfully, is that we
have sixteen people at this point in time dead from
a terrorist related incident. It's something that's going to come

(06:26):
to the forefront. And Commissioner Mallennion is an exceptionally smart man,
Mike Burgess equally, so they know those questions are going
to come.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
How easy is it to stop?

Speaker 3 (06:41):
It's probably a question that I struggle to probably give
you an answer because it depends on who is the individual,
Are they connected to a particular other individual, particular cell,
particular certain faith, how much bridge we've got over those people.

(07:02):
So a whole lot of things come in, like people
just think that you could pick this person up and
there's a bit of a trend happening and we can
target them. And I think back to the first podcast
we did when I try to explain a lot around terrorism.
Is your breadcrumbs are gone, like you know, your indicators
are gone generally, So I have no doubt we'll trawl
over the next twelve months now and unpack those individuals'

(07:26):
lives and unpack the connections and all of those certain things.
But to try to go a long way around answer
real simple question for you, it's very difficult to prevent,
particularly now in terms of the ability for them to
communicate across multiple social media platforms, which buries it underground
even harder. It's still a lot still to come out

(07:47):
at the moment, whether these guys were part of a
greater grip or were they self radicalized and operating on
their own. If that is the latter is the case,
and it's going to be very difficult because it's just
a father and son.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
It's like there's two of them, but it's almost the
lone actor. Just there happens to be two of them,
and the relationship between the father and son there might
be one as a power and the other one is
a follower who knows what's happened? Was I watched and
you know, I was glued to seeing what had occurred.

(08:20):
I thought it was good messaging from the police. I
thought Mount Lanyon hit the points at such an early
early stage in the investigation, and yeah, if mistakes were made,
and I'm not saying saying they were with identified, I
think our response to this type of situation has improved
since the Linked cafe, and that was eleven years ago.

(08:43):
I thought there was and I was involved in that.
There was a little bit of chaos around that, but
a lot of lessons were learned, I think, sadly in
recent times. The BONDI the stabbings taught again about about
the response. Watching from the outside, What did you take
away from the response by emergency services, not just police,

(09:04):
ambulance and everyone else that was heavily involved.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, look, it's you're right, you know that.

Speaker 3 (09:10):
It's as sad as those past events are, we do
learn from them, and as you know, you take those
learnings and you plug them back into your operating procedures
to try to tighten those and go on. I've had
a couple of different pieces of commentary come at me
over the last six or so hours talking about the
police response, and I understand from what I've been told

(09:32):
that it was nine minutes from the first shot to
the last shot being fired. When they're killed or one
of them are killed a lot. Now the other argument
as well, the police are on the updrate, or there
were police working operationally at the time.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
What I'd like.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
To try to get across is that if I am
out there operating as a police officer, they will certainly
hear those shots. But I've spoke to people this morning
that was on the beach yesterday coming out of the surf,
and I was talking to one particular lady and she
said to me that she first thought it was fireworks
that was going off, and then it kicked in to

(10:10):
go what's daytime? Yeah, that doesn't that doesn't compute. And
then it's so she said to herself, well, it sounds
like a gun. And I said, how long did it
take it to actually resonate to go it is a gun?

Speaker 2 (10:22):
She has minute and a half.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
So I say that in that it's that idyllic Sunday
afternoon and no one's anticipating it. Now, let's look at
the police perspective, right, is they are there on the beach,
or they are on route, they would be getting bombarded
with multiple reports of a shooter or shooters. Yep, I

(10:44):
would have no doubt there, But it would have been
confusion about the number of shooters that were active. There
would have been absolutely confusion, I would imagine around the
type of weapon and why that becomes important. Go is
you know, is it am I driving into someone with
a pistol a clock for example? On my driving into
as it was into someone who's got a long arm

(11:07):
that we've seen there from the footage that one of
the fellows had on. One of the rifles had a scope,
so that can obviously be designed to pick you off
from a greater distance. So all of these things are
going through the police's mind in terms of where they're
going to park, where they're going to pull up, the
offenders are on the go, how do they get across
to them? And I've seen footage of a young female
constable that was sort of leapfrogging up the side of

(11:29):
the cars to get out one of the offenders. It's overall,
you know, people can say, well, it's a police's job,
that's what you signed up to do.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah it is, and.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Don't why not, don't argue that, but you know, look,
they still leaped into the fire. From all of the
evidence that I've seen, they still went at it. Knowing
full well that they could pay, and there's two police
that are being injured, and they did what they had
to do. And I think to date, unless anyone can
come forward with any other suggestion of any other behavior

(12:04):
by the cops, I think they've done a hell of
a job. Now, is the nine minutes a long time?

Speaker 2 (12:08):
It would be.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
It is if you're sitting out there getting shot at.
But compound that to the police, because if the police
come in hard and fast and get taken out in
the first few minutes, no help to anyone.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
They haven't achieved anything, nothing at all.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
Well, I think the way you described that there outlines
the complexity of what happens in the situation like that.
Hindsight's a wonderful thing. We're all experts in the hindsight.
We did make improvements, I think improvements, and I think
that was generated from incidents that happened in the United States.
We're active shooter and the response to police. It's not

(12:44):
contained in the gachet that's not sealed off bondai and
wait till the tactical police there. If it's an active shooter,
the police role is to go in and finish the threat,
to stop the stop the threat. Yeah, your thoughts on
that is the way that we've got to respond because
it's a different world in the scope that we live

(13:07):
in now, isn't it. The active shooter response is the
appropriate response.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
Look, you know, and if we rewinder our clock back
a little bit, is that our traditional container negay shape.
It always comes off the back end of what's say
a bank robbery gone wrong, whether they might have been
sche masked up or their identities are hidden. So if
I'm hiding my identities, I come in to do a crime,
I've got the intention to get away with it and
move on. The first thing that resonates with those two

(13:33):
shooters from yesterday as soon as you see that first picture,
no attempt to cover up their identity. So what that
tells you from the outset is I am here. I'm
here to cause as much death and mayem as I
possibly can, and the only way it's going to stop
is when you shoot me. Because I haven't covered their identity,
they don't care.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
There was no plan escape.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
They were going to go and go until they died.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
From your experience in countert rorism, and we talked before
we started recording about the magnitude of the crime scene.
You were down there this morning, so yeah, less than
twelve hours after the event. What was your takeaway from that?

Speaker 2 (14:12):
Then?

Speaker 1 (14:13):
How big is the crime scene we're looking at?

Speaker 2 (14:14):
That's huge.

Speaker 3 (14:16):
It's Bread's entire length of the beach. Now whilst people
you know, a couple of reporters that I said to me,
why is the entire Campbell Parade basically raped off? Going
all the way down to the far left of Campbell
Parade is where I believe the vehicle was with the ied,
So the bomb squad we're working down there. Coming up
a little bit to that bridge is where the main

(14:39):
main fatalities were. It's heavily saturated with evidence, as one
would imagine. But in terms of why do you rape
off the entire rest of it, it's purely because as
people are running, they're victims, potentially they're dropping evidence as
they go at that relevant time, you know, mate, in
terms of homicide crime scenes, far better I've got one go, Yeah,

(15:02):
I'm far better. I mean to go out and secure
everything I practically can secure. And as you know, we
as we work that crime scene and we get more
information and intelligence coming about the particular crime we're looking
at that crime scene will come in a little bit,
but it's it's big. It was very somber this morning.
There was each corner. I had all of the various

(15:22):
major press outlets. It's a bit of a who's who
of morning TV so to speak down there. There was
pleasantries explain exchange between each of them, but it was
a very somber mood.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
It hits the psyche of a city like Sydney and
the country for that matter, that it's widespread with the
actual crime scene and the era. And you mentioned the IED,
so have you got there. What's the latest update on that,
because there was a suggestion and what we're talking about
improvised explosive devices and there was concerns that they were

(15:56):
around around the era.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yeah, I understand.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
My last piece of information around that is that there
was two found in the vehicle that they drove in
are there are two IEDs that have been since disarmed,
but they were to be ignited via a ignition so
ignited via a wick. So what that would sort of

(16:20):
generally suggest is that quite clearly it's light it and
throw it.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Now.

Speaker 3 (16:25):
I understand from a thing was from the press conference
that was put out by Commissioner Onnion that they were
found in the vehicle and disarmed. Now why they didn't
come out and why they didn't get used or who
will never know, but they weren't.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
And that's another consideration for police too on this. And
I'm not trying to justify or whatever with police action,
but coordinating off the scene. It wouldn't be the first
time that the terrorist side has happened and then they're
waiting for a secondary attack where people have come in.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
It's you know, it's the methodology of them. And there's
numerous attacks around around the world that are happened, and
what they'll often be is that, yes, the initial terrorist
act has occurred, and what will be staged around that
area are other potential offenders or other vehicles that are
stoked with IEDs. Then the point around that could be twofold.

(17:15):
It'll be one the initial chaos will occur and people
will run and spread and then so the device can
be activated to take them out. Or more traditionally, how
it's been used in the past is we know law
enforcement will come in on mass and that second device
and even sometimes a third device is designed to take

(17:35):
out those first responders.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
Again drawing on your experience working in counter terrorism. The
strike force that's been set up to investigate this, well,
I would imagine that it's huge. Who will that involve,
what sort.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
Of It's a great question. It will involve everyone. So
probably as you know, if you remember back to your day,
that there is a particular strike force that set up,
there's already pre planned tasks set in there, of course,
but they'll grow as we go, but pre planned points
of responsibilities. Obviously, State crime will come in, will be
led by the counter Terrorism Coordination Command which is will

(18:15):
essentially be run by what we call the Joint counter
Terrorism Commands and involve the AFP and the New South
Wales Police supported by State Crime and LAC Local Area
Command detectives. But look, it's no secret Asia are going
to be there. They're going to plug that information in
New South Wales Crime Commission will be there in their
capacity and as I understand that, the AFP everybody started

(18:38):
to play a number of tactical resources into the area
as well. If there's needs, surveillance will continue and that
will come in from probably all around the state and
act I'd.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
Imagine, Okay, so multi multi agencies, the other thing that
very early in the after the incident that Commissional Lenion
declared the Terrace incident. What's the significance of that and
what does a commissioner need to declare it the terrace incident.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
Yeah, the main significance around it is it's it allows
him to identify, for example, a particular area might help him.
Let him identify a particular description of a person or
a vehicle, for example, and basically say I'll make this
up here as an example, and put a blanket over
a particular postcode, or put a blanket over a certain
streat or certain aspects of a suburb, and say anything

(19:31):
contained in there is subject now to the powers. And
that could be stop, search and detain, It could be
go into the house and do what we need to do.
It could be removal of your phone. So they'll be
very broader power. So in the days where for example,
we might have needed to say a search oneant, you know,
we've got to go through the Affidavid process up into
the courts, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
With these powers, it basically.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
Becomes an automatic go do what you need to do
in accordance with that legislation. So it frees them up
drastically to do that, and to do that he actually
stepped that out on his press release last night, and
it was just a matter of getting a true understanding
that the crime itself was connected or likely to be
connected to an act of terrorism.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
He said.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
He was set aside of that very quickly and acted
those powers. And those powers are why you saw that sift,
swift response last night.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
We're talking about the other premises that were I think
it was from Brig were executed warrants or gained entry
into the premises.

Speaker 3 (20:31):
Yeah, so they did that and that's what enables you
to do because as you can imagine, what we're trying
to do, he is move very swiftly to prevent either
the loss or destruction of evidence, but also to get
ahead of capturing if there's any potential known offenders out there.
And it just allows for a very swift response as
opposed to going through what we might have to normally
go through with warrants, et cetera.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, understood. With the situation, the way it's occurred and
the police response in the lead up to this, there's
been a lot, i'd describe, and Sydney based, there's been
a lot of discontent within the community. There's been protests

(21:15):
Someday afternoon, there was multiple protests for the past six
months or even longer. Do you think that fuels an
environment where this type of thing can happen, where there's ideology,
is very strong ideologies and people have strong, strong views.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:32):
Look, I think if I said I know it's had
no impact, I think I'd be lying. When when you
see what we see play out over the last six months,
and everyone I've spoke to from much like yourself made
is when unfortunately something like this happens, is you jump
on the old network and there's a number of stories

(21:52):
been exchanged. But when you've got that type of rehtoric
being pushed out there, or that one particular point of
view being pushed out there, and here's a ver this
has put to me about half an hour ago before
I come on in. In terms of the right wing
extremist protests, we saw absolutely opponent. Don't get me wrong,

(22:12):
I understand as a South African fellow deported from the
country within days. Yet let's look at the other side.
Let's look at the protests that have been run. Let's
look at the permitted mass flags, which is a terrorist
organization that have been permitted to fly.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
Let's look at.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
The disproportionate response in terms of let that walk.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
We're going to cut that one off at the knees
and push it out.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
If we're going to do this properly and in the
most polite terms as I can put it. You're in Australia.
We have our culture, we have our laws, we have
our rules. No different if you and I went overseas
to any particular country. The first thing we do is
we are bid by their laws, their rules, their customs.

(23:00):
Now they have avoided by our rules in the sense
that they protested, and they protested lawfully. But the vast
number of mixed messages that it's being sent out is
here we have rightly. So this fellow on the right
wing extremism South African at that point protested in silence,
deported and not saying he shouldn't have been. But let's
go the other way. We've got supporters of Hermas flying

(23:24):
a flag they celebrate a year to the date of
the attacks in Israel. How on earth does that even
balance itself? It doesn't, So should we now expect to
see either Well, clearly, the individual that's still alive. He's
going to obviously stand trial. But what about now if

(23:44):
we find and we cast the net a bit wider
and we start to find now people that may be
aided are bettered in some description.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Are we going to punt them?

Speaker 3 (23:53):
Are we going to deport them out of the country
back to where they come from?

Speaker 2 (23:57):
That'll be a key question.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, it's a different situation because it's a complex situation.
I look at this and when you've got ideologies one
extreme side and the other extreme side. And I think
it was Dave Gore, our Good Mates made based on
his book, a former counter terrace operator but also an academic,

(24:20):
and talking about when the right wing rises, you like
starting to be a concern to law enforcement. You don't
just have to concentrate on the right wing because the
left wing will rise together. What I got the sense of,
and I'm no expert in this field, but what I
got the sense of in this city there was such
strong polarizing views. And what you're talking about is how

(24:43):
does law enforcement deal with that? Do you deal with
it across the board? The thing that saddens me about
this mostly is it looks like a particular group was targeted,
but it's our whole community, how society has been targeted
when we're bringing this. And I think we lived in
a world perhaps naively because I know you and I speaking,

(25:05):
and it didn't surprise us that this has happened, and
other people involved in the world a little bit in
detail hasn't come as a surprise. But we felt like
we were different and this is sort of showing that
we're not different and this type of violence can impact
on us.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yeah, look at you know, it's sad.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
You know, like I hear on the radio at times
and people saying to me, you know that this is
not the Australia that we knew. You know, this is
not the Australia we grew up with. Well it's not.
We've changed as a country. The world's changed for that matter,
and sometimes not for the better. It doesn't mean we
have to accept it though, But you know, this is

(25:46):
where that defining moment now is is well, what are
we going to do about this as a nation? What
is the rhetoric and the tone and the stance that
our government is now going to take. Where's the line
in the sand that people can't cross now? And how
are we going to.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
Enforce that we're not immune to it.

Speaker 3 (26:02):
No we're not, mate, No, look we're not at all.
And you know, because people move to this country and
irrespective of where they're from, they don't check their world
problems at customs. Those problems come with them over the border.
Now I'm not saying before I get shouted down about
multiculturalism and all these things. I had a lot of
great mates Italians, Greeks, Vietnamese, Chinese, whatever you're like, a

(26:26):
lot of great mates. Immigration has done a lot for
this country. Multiculturalism has done a lot for this country.
But at the same token, you cannot expect to open
your gates bring in a million plus people in the
last three years and go to them. Come, but just
check all your baggage at customs and don't bring that

(26:48):
with you. It's not logic, it's not going to happen.
Those problems will come. So the problems will come. Now
now it's an issue on back on law enforcement, back
on the government of New Southward Australia to actually turn
your head around and go it is now foreseeable that
these problems will come over the border. These problems are
going to come to our shores. What do we do

(27:10):
big conversation, but you've got to have it.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
Well, it is a big conversation, and it's very divisive,
like just having that conversation that polarizes people just offering
an opinion that way, Maybe we need to all take
a step back and have a balanced conversation where we're
not it's not such an inflammatory comments that just escalate.
Because that's what's worried me in this environment. I've just

(27:34):
felt like it's almost like it was inevitable the way
this was building up.

Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yeah, well that was certainly.

Speaker 3 (27:41):
And it's funny, you know, I've spoke to a few
people today and they've all said the same thing. You know,
they could feel that powder cake just coming and coming
and coming, and I was just going to be a
matter of time. And I totally concur with you, mate,
that right now is not the time to respond. Yeah,
by all means. And what I mean is sure, we're

(28:03):
going to respond to what we're dealing with. We're going
to put some measures in place. Absolutely we'll do that,
but let's take a step back. Let's do what we
can do now for the victims. Let us do what
we can do for the community or bondai for the
Jewish community for the greater Austrayian community. Then when we're measured,
let's start talking some real talk.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Make the decisions. Yeah, I also I can't help but
think it plays into it. Then we can reference the
father and son per betrayers, put them in the category
of a lone actor. But mental health issues come into this.
So it's multi layered, isn't it multi layer in terms
of what sets a person off? And you've made a

(28:45):
very valid point. The moment they turn up and they're
not mass they're not covering their face, they had no
escape plan that was they were going to shoot it
out until someone shot them.

Speaker 3 (28:54):
Yeah, you're right, and you make a very good point.
There may too in that if we had this conversation
maybe say ten years ago trip we would be traditionally
then talking Islamic terrorism, because that's what our main concern
was back in the day. But to your very valid point,
we are now dealing with right wing, left wing take
your pick of any other letters that were floating around

(29:17):
out there. But also it's now about the mental health
aspect that's floating out We saw that probably kicking out
of Bondai at Westfields obviously as a bit of a
central piece. So now all of that gets wrapped up
into the powder kick and it's about then the responding
police showing up to go well, which particular issue am

(29:40):
I actually trying to confront versus just trying to deal
with what they're dealing with. So there's so much and
I speak to a lot of police that their work
through mental health and attending to mental health crisis has
phenomenally gone through the roof. There's several clients that I've
got that I do reviews for based on the violence

(30:01):
to their staff from mental health patience. It's driving it
through the roof. It's driving those sorts of issues that
are impacting, as you rightly say, made an impacting not
only at a policing level, but at a society level
and someone and someone the flow and effect goes.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
One thing that I have always seen in policing that
when incidents occur, we improve our practices. And that's not
even drawing any inference to the response or the lead
up to this matter. That's something that we played out
over the next twelve months with all the investigations going.

(30:39):
But we learn when we first started going after serial killers,
we're a naive in the way that that was approached,
I'd like to think, and I just want to understand
if you agree with it. I'd like to think whatever
happens from this, the response by the police, not just
a response to an incident, preparing for an incident and
preventing incident will improve.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yeah, well, and that comes for a lot of your
listeners that we know what's going to come is obviously
going to be the criminal side of the house for
the shooter that's left, but the larger coronial part that
will come and it's often out of those coronial reviews
go as you know, is that it will look at,
for example, process procedure and communications. Was there any failures

(31:25):
on the policing side, Is there any additional advancement on
equipment that could be given into the police, And they
will look at a bit of a root cause analysis
around what else may have contributed, and that'll be multi layered.
But you're right, the whole point around that is then
the current is going to make unthane recommendations to the
police and then the police will take that. They will

(31:46):
then fine tune our procedures again and off we go,
and the old container negotiates the perfect example that's how
we always.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
Thought it was done.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
Then it's shown to not that's retard the way we
want it.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
It doesn't work in terror of situations, so that it's
it's been refined and now we've now we're dealing with
what we deal with.

Speaker 2 (32:05):
So yeah, I totally would agree that.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
A complete hooless bolus assessment of what went right and
what went wrong will come and then flowing on for
that will be procedural shifts.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
And what about the role of the public in these
situations too? That the intel that we get from police,
We've got creative ways of getting the intel, but a
large part of it is from information provided to the
public from the public, and it might be considered the
throw away line that this type of information should be
passed on the law enforcement. Would that be.

Speaker 3 (32:36):
Absolutely, it's in a not too dissimilar approach. I talked
to a lot of schools around active armed defenders, and
what we talked to them about is there's been various
studies done, for example, overseas, and interview has done of
either teachers or students that were made aware of some
threats being made by the eventual perpetrators, and they were

(32:57):
interviewed and they were interviewed in terms of all if
you knew something, what in you say something? And the
common adage of you know, I didn't think it was real.
I didn't think they were serious. I didn't think it
would happen here. I didn't want to be a snitch,
and I didn't want to cause any problems or float.
And as I can probably say to that.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
Is, leave that to the police.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
Report it because you don't know what one simple piece
of your puzzle is. But when I match it against
the other two, three, four, five pieces of information that
I actually also have, as you know, our puzzle becomes
a bigger picture, and now we can put some reliant,
some credibility on this thing and start to attack it properly.
In that sense, So I know it's you know, if

(33:41):
you see say something, say something, but please, by all
means don't. You're not going to cause any headache to
the police. That's the job.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
Get us the information and let them make that the police.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
Prefer to have that information. I think it's also important
what you touched on about focusing on the victims, the
people who have been impacted upon. I'm a big believer
in don't give any airtime to the perpetrators, and they're
not dying as saviors or martyrs. That they're cowards and

(34:16):
it's the most cowardly thing you can do to attack.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
In this absolutely, and you may not ever notice. But
if I ever do an interview, I'll never mentioned the
name of the offender.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
Ever.

Speaker 3 (34:26):
I don't want that person doesn't have the right to
have their name reference to all, whether they're alive or dead.
And it would be my wish that the media.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Black it out.

Speaker 3 (34:36):
Yeah, go simon on them. Just call them the offender
or whoever will pick another word, but don't reference their name.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
Well, not this simmer lesser scale, but still the consequences
on the coward punch, just changing the narrative. It's not
a king hit. It was a coward punch. Absolutely, these
are coward cowardly attacks. But look, a lot's going to
come out from from what happened response, looking at the individuals,

(35:02):
the emergency services, the police response, the community response. It
made you made you proud.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yeah, it did.

Speaker 4 (35:09):
You know.

Speaker 3 (35:09):
I went down to Bondaio this morning, as I said,
and you'll know what I mean, And you walk down
there and knowing full well that as you step around
this corner. What was here twelve hours ago? It was
It's Bondai. It was a Sunday afternoon. It was full
of life, it was full of happiness, it was full
of laughter. It was silent. It was just eerily silent.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
All of us.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
There were were media, there was a few onlookers that
came out at night. The we'll often probably hear about police, police, police,
but the ambulance officers, fire and rescue officers, the ses
that played the part.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
The lifeguards at Bondai.

Speaker 3 (35:46):
I spoke to one this morning who was still having
difficulty coming to grips with what they saw. But you're right,
you know that, I think, no matter what we go
through in Australia, that will always stand up and take
on whatever it is we've got to take on. But yeah,
it's all of those first responders. You know, they should
stand proud, they should stand tall, and as you and

(36:06):
I have spoken about before, once the does settles, if
you need to help go and get it.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah, no, definitely, because I think there's going to be
a lot of people affected by what they've experienced in
this this incident. First responders, life savers, the the ambos,
all the doctors, the nurses in the in the hospital,
but also members of the public like acts of bravery
that that dude that's grabbed the blake with the rifle.

(36:33):
Good on him, you know.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
Just phenomenal, wasn't it.

Speaker 3 (36:36):
You know that he had that option to stay where
he was, He did not have to step out into
the fray, so to speak, but he did it, and
you know, good on him.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
And they're the ones that we do.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
So I mean that that is at the top echelon
of someone who's done it. But I suspect Gays you
you will know made it over when we start to
hear these stories unpack a little bit more, there's going
to be so many little stories like that that that
drift out, and it'd be it'd be awesome that those
stories reach reach the light and we get to hear about.

Speaker 1 (37:05):
And that when you call it a terror sack, that
hits back at terrorist going you're not going to break us.
And I think that's a good way to approach.

Speaker 3 (37:12):
It, absolutely, And we've got to stay on that focus
and we've got to stay in that direction and just
show that you can come, you can do what you're
going to do, but we're not going to change we're
not going to bow down.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, thank you for coming on so early in the piece.
And I know you've you've spoken to quite a few people,
but that's your your expertise, and I think it's important
to have this discussion too. I think people need to
understand what's behind all this, how the response is because
other other than that, like you've had a phone call
from an elderly relative that just in mad panic, thinking

(37:45):
the you know the world's going to stop as yeah,
the incidents and they see how it plays out on TV.
I thought mal Lanyon made a point and I think
also the Premier made a point that let's not live
in a heightened, heightened state of fear. This is something
that we're in place, we can deal with, we can
manage it. We will manage it. And I think I

(38:06):
heard two of them say we're going to come no
stone unturned, and that's the way an investigation like this
will be approached.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
Oh yeah, and it has to be, doesn't it. You
know that we've got a good, bad or ugly. Whether
that stone yields something that perhaps shows what the police
may or as may have missed, we'll have to deal
with that. But the public had got to have confidence
at the moment. Let's face it that the public confidence
may not be see behind in the sense of going, well,
he told us to trust you, and how did this

(38:36):
actually even happen?

Speaker 2 (38:38):
I get that.

Speaker 3 (38:39):
What we've got to hold on to now is let
them get the job done. Then there will come that
time to ask questions. And for whatever is worth from
an ex detective to your listeners is we've got to
step up now and have an actual, real conversation about
the real issues that are occurring now in this country. Yes,
influence from what he's over over the other side of

(39:01):
the world, but let's have that conversation. Let's turn those
rocks over good, bad, ugly or indifferent, and then let's
find a solution to would be would be my guidance?

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Well good, good way to finish after speaking to you,
I'm also speaking to Nathan Brooks as psychologist from New
Zealand Police and he's had a lot of experience and
sort of delving into the mindset of these laying actor
types and the difference between a mass killing and a
terrorist act. But I think these are all the things

(39:31):
that we've got to discuss so we understand what we're doing. Yeah,
let's hope we're not having this conversation again again soon.
It's good to see him, but good.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
To see thanks for having me in Yeah, taking the time.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
Cheers, Thank you, doctor Nathan Brooks. Thanks for joining me
on I Catch Killers.

Speaker 4 (39:50):
It's good to talk again, Gary, And unfortunately it's under
very tragic circumstances.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
Yeah. As much as I enjoyed talking to you last time,
I was hoping we wouldn't be talking this recent after
you last appeared on I Catch Killers, but the recent
events less than twenty four hours ago. It's a situation
that we've all dreaded. It's a horrible situation, but I
thought we'd get a bit of an understanding. Prior to

(40:16):
speaking to you, I spoke to a counter terrorism expert
from New South Wales. What I'd like to talk to
you about is getting an understanding of the type of
people that might commit an offense like this. Now, I
fully understand we're in the very early stages of it
and all the information hasn't come out, but it's been

(40:36):
declared a terrorist attack by our the New South Wales
Police Commissioner mal Lanyon very early in the piece declared
the terrorist attack. I know. When I last spoke to you,
we talked about the difference between terrorist attacks and a
spree or rampage killing. The fact that our commissioner has
come out very early and called it a terrorist attack,
what does that tell you in your expertise?

Speaker 4 (40:59):
You look at my cavit garre before I start that,
I'm affiliated with various agencies and I'm here on my
own volition and not representing any of those today. But
when we talk about terrorism, we're really talking about an
act that is socially or politically motivated, and there is
the intent to try and create change and foster fear

(41:19):
and even try and accelerate those social and political motivations
for the cause. That is underneath or underlying the intention
and the motivation of the offending.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
The fact that it's happened at Bondi Beach. Leaning into
the terrorist side of things. If there's one location that's
iconic with Sydney, Australia, it's Bondi Beach and worldwide attention
that's a well known location. Is that something that is
often part of the act of terrorism. To make sure
that we create that situation where people are aware of

(41:52):
what's occurred, I.

Speaker 4 (41:53):
Think in general. When we look at loan actor attacks,
which at this stage this appears to fit into is
people target will choose targets that will bring a lot
of casualties, a lot of attention, that can be quite
symbolic at times as well. But they are in some ways,
I guess, heavy patroned areas that allow people to ultimately

(42:15):
maximize the casualties. And that's why we see things like
schools being targeted and are they heavily patron areas where
they are able to within a matter of minutes inflict
a high level of often lethal harm.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
You referred to it as a loan actor event, and
our understanding this stage, very early stages. It was a
father and son. The fifty year old father was killed
during the police operation and the son is in custody
but in a critical condition, is my understanding at this
point in time. What does that tell you and why

(42:52):
do we refer to it as loan actor when there's
more than one perpetrator involved.

Speaker 4 (42:59):
We have seen self initiated acts of violence over the years,
such as the Columbine attack over in the US, where
it can occasionally be in diads or triads or small
groups of individuals that come together. The will and Billa
shooting in Queensland's probably another case where we had family
members that were involved as well. So when we have

(43:22):
more than one or two people or a couple of
people coming together, we can still call it load actor.
So these are individuals that are basically self initiated and
acting on their own volition rather than at the direction
of others or such as a terrorist group. So often
we think about it as just this self initiated movement

(43:43):
towards violence. And obviously we'll get more information as the
weeks go on around whether there were greater connections abroad
or even locally in New South Wales for instance, But
at the moment the information seems to suggest this is
self initiated a.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
Father and son. To me, we're talking to ideology when
the terrorist aack occurs, generally it's acting on that ideology.
Does tell you anything about the family environment. The fact
that the father and son won the Schums were of
the same belief in same ideology and wanted to take
such extreme action.

Speaker 4 (44:19):
Well, family relationships and dynamics can be very powerful and influential,
can't they. And it reminds me in some ways of
the belt Away or DC sniper shooting case that we
had with John Muhammad who was forty one and Lee
Malvo who was a seventeen year old. And Muhammad took
Malvo under his wings and they had a somewhat of

(44:40):
a father's son relationship, and he indoctrinated and coerced Malvo
into carrying out the series of shootings which occurred over
several months across the DC area.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
I look at this as a mass shooting, terrorist attack
as it's been defined. How do we prevent that? Now
that's a very broad broad question, but we're looking at
everyone's got beliefs ideologies, where those ideologies become extreme and
when they start to act on the ideologies, how can

(45:13):
that be? Police still prevent it? And I know you
can speak from experience you work with the Enz police,
you had the christ Church massacre. Things like that. They're
very hard. I'm looking at it from a former police
officer's point of view, It's very hard to prevent this.

Speaker 4 (45:31):
Yeah, Look, I think the recipe, or a simple analogy
in some ways, is that being aggrieved loads the gun.
Then we have the person becoming fixated and psychologically preoccupied
and that aims it. And then from there we do
the development of extremely overvalued beliefs and overweighted ideas then

(45:55):
pulls the trigger. So it's a simple way to think
about things. But we're talking about a series of processes
that occurs for the person and that evolves over time.
Potentially in this case, we're talking about that dynamic between
two people and how that's transpired and potentially one may
have a more dominant influence on the other, but ultimately

(46:15):
talking about the evolution and evolvement of that process. And
then when we think about prevention, we think about how
do we identify that in the early stages, when there
are grievances, when there are indicators of psychological preoccupation. How
do we get an intervention in there when that is developing,

(46:36):
rather than at the point when the dials are so
dialed up that we're simply hoping that we get lucky
by receiving information that someone's days away from carrying out attacks.
So we really need to be looking at the markets early.
And we've spoken before about the brilliant role that Fixated
Threat Assessment Center's played in this space around the triaging

(46:57):
and allocating a support and resources for the folks. So
we have great systems in place, But of course people
can operate in isolation, as we know with self initiative folks,
and that creates enormous challenges in the information doesn't get
out and doesn't flow.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
I think when we spoke before, one of the things
that we encourage was community support. If anyone's acting behavior,
their behavior is that little bit strange, that report it
to authorities and bring it to their attention. Would you
reinforce that?

Speaker 4 (47:29):
Absolutely? You know, communities are at the heart of policing,
and that information is as small or irrelevant as it
may seem. Sharing that with another family member, another friend,
getting a different perspective is really crucial because they might
be able to provide context around why they think it's concerning,
and that then might allow another door to open and

(47:51):
eventually share that information and again get it to the
right people, even if it's community workers or culturally ais
on people that are able to have the conversations and
potentially shed some light on what might be going on.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
And I suppose that small piece of information could be
the critical piece of information. It just adds to the
jigsaw puzzle when you're trying to put these things together.

Speaker 4 (48:14):
Absolutely, we know in these cases internationally generally between fifty
to ninety percent have leakage, and leakage is ultimately someone
talking to another person where they express their intent to
carry out an active harm. So again, in a case
like this, without jumping to conclusions, we need to think

(48:37):
about what could the role of leakage been in something
like this.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
And that leakage could be what could be considered an
idle threat, Oh, this person's going to get together one day,
they're going to get what's coming to them, that type
of thing. But that leakage is what my interpretation of
what you're saying there, that potential indicator this is an
action they might actually carry out.

Speaker 4 (49:00):
So you know, it might be something as simple as
saying to a friend that you know, I'm going to
go and make sure that I carry out justice and
revenge for this cause.

Speaker 1 (49:10):
What was the reaction over in New Zealand? Because New
Zealand then itself has been touched by massacres even on
the larger scale than.

Speaker 4 (49:17):
This, I think, like anywhere in the world, everyone's shocked
and any type of tragedy like this courses people to
stop and reflect, and you know, it's just it really
makes us concerned around when people are carrying out such
horrific targeted violence against members of the public. We all
like to feel safe in as though we can go

(49:40):
about our daily lives, and when that is at threatened.
That's ultimately what we talk about with terrorism, is that
it's that impeding on the public to try instill fear
and often at the you know, the benefit of a
cause that they're trying to progress, and you know, terrorism
has a horrific impact on society simply because of the

(50:00):
fear that it invokes in people.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
The indications here is that this act was targeting the
Jewish community, and there's been a lot of commentary in
that on that issue in the media, but there is
also the police commission that came out very strongly and
I think appropriately this is not the time to panic.
This is not the time to know the whole world's

(50:23):
going to end on this situation. It is a horrendous
situation and thousands of lives have been impacted on dramatically
on what has occurred. But do you think that's a
strong message to put out that this is not the
time to not a time to panic.

Speaker 4 (50:38):
Look, I think that is really important to reassure people,
to put it into context. This is probably the sixteenth
terrorist attack that we've had across Australia and New Zealand
since twenty fourteen, and the initial one in twenty fourteen
was Newman Hater when he's stabbed to counter terrorism police
officers in Melbourne in September, and then a few months

(51:00):
later we had the Link Cafe siege on December fifteenth.
So we've slowly been having a consistent number of attacks
continue and this very much tragically is another one of those.
But it's also my view, probably representative of that shifting
landscape that we are seeing that has several underlying issues

(51:21):
around it which explain why we're seeing this rise in violence.
But it is important to put it into context. So
there is a continuation of these attacks, but do see
that largely our countries are doing a great job at
preventing this violence.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
I had a fortune to speak to doctor Anne Burgess
from the FBI that you're familiar with her work from
mind Hunter days and profiling serial killers, and she indicated
that the work now they're starting to look at profiling
the type of people that might commit attacks like this.
Have you got any comments or thoughts on that is

(52:00):
a trend in what we should look at in preventing
crimes of this nature.

Speaker 4 (52:06):
Yeah, look, the research so far said that it's really
hard to get a profile on these folks because they
are so broad and varied. And then the moment that
we think we have it worked out, it then flips
and changes again. So you know, back in twenty fourteen,
this started off being all about Islamic inspired violence. Then

(52:26):
it shifted and it became around things like right wing extremism,
and then shifted again, and then it became about ideologies
more broadly that it was about grievances, And now we're
seeing also the rise of sort of just violence for
the sake of inflicting violence overseas as well. So it
constantly evolves. In the moment that we think we have

(52:49):
a profile, a new trend in, a new pattern emergers.
There are certain commonalities that we do see, particularly around
the tendencies to develop grievances the team, and it is
to become fixated people that are probably reasonably isolated and
socially disconnected, or that they are failing to really failing

(53:11):
to really connect socially with others. They often can be
quite isolated, and then we see also that they've got
a personality structure where they tend to be folks that
lack resilience, that struggle to adapt to setbacks and failures
and become very rigid and stuck on that. And then
if we fuel that with contagious ideas or extreme content,

(53:34):
then that can create a really volatile mix. And then
there's a lack of protective factors in the person's life,
then that some of the obstacles are removed and positive
social influencers are not able to guide them onto a
different path. And that's where violence can start to really
become reinforced and become an option and a solution for them.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
It's a complex situation. I look back and reflect aka
what have we seen in Sydney of recent times. Well,
for the past twelve months, most Sundays there was a
protest of some form going on and it was people
with polarizing views. It's right wing, left wing. There was
protests the main streets of Sydney blocked off virtually every Sunday.

(54:20):
Is that the type of unrest in an environment that
people like And we're surmising here because it's very early days.
People like the two perpetrators who were carried out. This
act could be fueled by that type of behavior or
that type of situation occurring in the community.

Speaker 4 (54:39):
Look, it definitely plays a part. I probably term that
is moral outrage in some ways and the sense that
is injustice. And when we add that with personality factors
and the inability to have other positive things in your
life to the point that that then becomes your sole
preoccupation and it then becomes comes to define you, becomes

(55:02):
fused into your identity. This is who I am, this
is what I stand for, And if I'm not getting
the response that I want, then I have to go
harder and louder and push things further. And that's where
we can end up in what we know is the
last resort response, where ultimately they perceive that all other
options have failed and violence is the last resort to

(55:24):
either bring about change or try and accelerate their position
and their cause.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
Can you get to that point if someone has been
identified as having radical ideology, can they be deradicalized? Is
that if law enforcement identify someone, is that person a
risk for maternity or is there a way to people
can be deradicalized in their beliefs.

Speaker 4 (55:49):
Yeah, we tend to move away from deradicalization now and
look at the mechanics that are underneath the violence or
the factors that have led them to that, and the
belief system is a huge part of that. Deradicalization would
argue that it's ultimately about changing that belief system, but
we probably would take it a step back even more

(56:10):
and go, well, how did that develop for that person
in the first place? So why this person and why now?
And we would look at, you know, what is it
about them that's led them to developing this way of thinking.
And one of the big things that we find is
that people perceive that they're under threat, that the way

(56:31):
they want to live their life or their belief system
is under threat, and when they try and look at
ways to resolve it and they are ineffective, then they
view that as a continuation of that threat. And the
less and less options and the less and less solutions
that are available to resolve that threat, then violence becomes

(56:53):
that possibility and that solution. So, like we talked about
the when we last work around the staircase, you know,
gradually climb in the staircase and options narrow, and also
like the bathtub, the more things that get thrown in
and filling up that bathtub to the point that it
can no longer contain the water and it tips over.

(57:15):
And ultimately the active violence comes about.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
The work that you do, and we don't have to
delve into that too deeply, but the work that you
do with New Zealand, please, I see that it's a
growing field that all law enforcement agencies, not just in
New Zealand Australia, like across the world would benefit by
having this sort of expertise that you can look at

(57:39):
and help identify people. Is that a simplistic view or
something that you would share now, look at is important.

Speaker 4 (57:46):
I think we are increasingly seeing the need for multi
agency collaboration across these issues. It's too much for police
to hold on their own, it's too much for other
agencies to hold on their own. We need to be
communityting all coming together and making sure we're sharing information
and getting various expert opinions on the issue and on

(58:09):
the person, because, as we know, if we siloed in
this work, that creates huge problems. If we have gaps
in our knowledge or competence, that also creates big issues
where we can miss something. And then of course disconnects
as well. We've got disconnects between various agencies or standoffs
or hierarchical issues that can also be really problematic. So

(58:33):
the more that we have a holistic and coherent practice
between different fields and different agencies psychologists, psychiatrists, police, the
better we can make more informed decisions around these matters.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
It makes sense the multi agency approach. The media. The
role of the media and media is coming for some criticism,
and when you look at what the act of terrorism
is about is creating, instilling things in the community and that,
but they have a role, like the media have a role,
And I was comforted by the way the media approached

(59:08):
the story in the past or less than twenty four hours,
providing the information, but also cautioning not to instill too
much much fear and focusing on Okay, it's contained. We're
not looking because the initial reports and I'm getting text
from friends and I'm sure everyone else was getting that
type of Oh, apparently this is the first of it

(59:29):
many attacks. There's going to be bombs, there's going to
be this, and it can just escalate. So there is
a role for the media to play in situations like this.
Is that fair to say.

Speaker 4 (59:39):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, these attacks are intended to
create fear and chaos and uncertainty, and the media can
play a critical role in navigating that. They can stoke
that and add to add to the chaos and add
to the fear by sensationalizing things, or can a source

(01:00:00):
of information and understanding. And in chaos, people want to
be able to understand things. They want the information, they
want to know what that means for them as individuals.
So the media have a really important role to share
that information and foster understanding. I think it's also really
important to make sure that we make it victim focused.

(01:00:25):
So one of the things that you know, I'd love
to see is sharing the stories about the lives of
the victims. It's so crucial. That's got to be the
narrative that emerges out of these attacks. Look, we'll get
information on the perpetrators that will happen in time, but
you know, there's been several lives that have been lost,
and that's that's the core of this, and it's ultimately

(01:00:46):
about them.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
Nathan, I think that's such a valid, a valid thought
process on the way the media should play the situation.
Then that the perpetrators shouldn't be the story shouldn't be
about perpetrators, because I would imagine that I'm not a
psychologists obviously, but I would imagine if they got put
on a pedestal and got no variety in whatever form

(01:01:08):
that might feel for vor acts, the perpetrators should be
virtually forgotten and the focus on the victim. So I
understand what you're saying there.

Speaker 4 (01:01:17):
Yeah, And of course the people that intervened as well,
you know, they also had a critical role, So you know,
I think recognizing that as well, and shifting the narrative
to being about what we can take away from this
rather than giving the traction and the time to the individuals.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
Well, we're getting reports and that it will all come
out due course, but some real acts of bravery and
the way that people people responded to that, and it
was a really powerful message from a community, Hey, we're
not going to take this. I think you mentioned the
Link Cafe siege and it was almost I think eleven

(01:01:58):
years to the day that that occurred, and I felt
that was almost like Sydney as a community lost its
innocence and it rocked us to the core. And I
remember being involved in that in the situation understanding the
impact it had on the community. We do get desensitized

(01:02:18):
to things happening, but I also get the sense the
nature of what's occurred at Bondai and the manner in
which it occurred has rocked our sense of who we
are and what our community is all about. You would
have experienced it with the christ Church massacre, and I
think there was in excess of fifty people killed during that.

(01:02:38):
How long did it take the community to feel normal
again and get over the troupe? Well, I won't say
get over the trauma, because when the situation like that,
people never get over it. But how long did it
take the community to move on?

Speaker 4 (01:02:52):
It was a really difficult thing to probably quantify. I
think for anyone that that that you know, they're on
the ground, that are there happens, it can take years,
if not a lifetime for some people, particularly if they've
been directly involved in some way. Broadly speaking, you know,
we know from overseas and even with schools, you know,

(01:03:14):
this shapes communities, This shapes lives, which is really unfortunate.
And again I think it's what can people hopefully make
from that, and how can they know not that it
define them over time, but that it does. It just
takes time for people to grieve and to take the
care that they need to ensure that they're looking after

(01:03:37):
their own well being, and in time, communities do heal.
But of course, you know, governments have a pretty important
role to play in that by providing funding and support
and resources. So it's a whole effort. It takes everyone
to help people heal and move on from these events,
but they do have a lasting impact, certainly in the short.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
To moderate term. Okay, well we might leave it here, Nathan,
thank you for coming on at such short notice and
talking about the subject. I know both of us wish
we weren't talking about, but you're insight and some of
the points that you get across. I think it will
help people understand what actually has occurred here because it

(01:04:23):
is a shock. People are just this doesn't happen in
our country. Well, it has happened, and it's a wake
up call to us all. So just putting a little
bit of context into what's happened, how it happens, why
it happens, I think will be helpful. So appreciate your time.

Speaker 4 (01:04:38):
Thanks, Gary, I appreciate you having me on and look.
Hopefully the conversation can shed some light on what we
know about the challenges that are before us in this landscape.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
Thanks Nathan