June 13, 2025 • 56 mins
Two years after Gary Jubelin first spoke to Leisl Smith's sister, Jerildene Cane, a coronial inquest has been held in the hope that the family will finally get some answers.
Leisl disappeared in 2012 and her ex-boyfriend, James “Jim” Church, was charged with her suspected murder. But hours before the judge was due to hand down her verdict, Church took his own life - meaning the verdict was sealed forever.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, guys. Two years ago we spoke to Geraldine Kane,
whose sister Lisel Smith was murdered and her body has
never been found. A man called Jim Church was charged
with murder of Lisel and what followed was a lengthy
thirteen and a half week trial. But just hours before
the judge handed down the verdict, Church took his own life,
(00:21):
which meant the judge's decision is sealed forever, meaning the
family will never know if Church was found guilty or not.
From my observations, the police have done a very thorough
investigation into the disappearance of Lisel. During our podcast with
Geraldine in twenty twenty three, we called for a cranial inquest,
and now two years later, that's exactly where we are.
(00:43):
We're here for the inquest into the suspicious disappearance of
Lisel Smith, who was just twenty three years old when
she vanished from the Central Coast on New South Wales
in twenty twelve. It was a unique situation. When I
say unique. First of all, Geraline, thanks for having a
chat here.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
No problem, thanks for having me harry again.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Yeah, Well, just to explain, because it was a case
that was very troubling and the end results and are
the ones that have really I haven't seen it occur
in all the time that I've been involved in homicide
investigations or missing persons. What happened. The person was charged
with Liesl's murder and it was a murder trial was
(01:26):
conducted with a judge only trial, so there was no jury,
and then the judge has made the decision. Following I
think it was thirteen weeks thirteen and a half, Yeah,
thirteen and a half weeks of evidence where the murder
trial was run, the judge had come to a conclusion
and she'd summoned all the interested parties into appear at court.
(01:48):
On that very day, the person that was charged with
the murder killed himself.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, apparently, I think it was the day before that
we got the phone call stating that there'd been a
notification to ambulance and police that there was a deceased
person at his address and we were due to fly
up the morning of the verdict, and the social worker
(02:14):
rang me and said that there'd been a development, and
I thought, you know what, he's guilty, and I would
have been quite surprised if that had been the case,
and she was quite hesitant to explain over the phone,
and I said her, you need to tell me because
I'm at work and I've got five and a half
hours to go and with what I do, I can't
(02:34):
not be focused. So she got in contact with the
two DPP barristers who were running the case at the time.
She needed to have a quick chat to them, and
then she was going to get back to me, and
I said great. She rang me back and said that
ambulance and police, in particular the detectives were on their
(02:56):
way to confirm that he had committed suicide. As I
said on the podcast, I believe, I swore, and then
said to my boss I was off the floor. My
husband had to come and pick me up, and we
ended up having a teleconference at work using my boss's computer,
and we were warned that it was most likely that
we wouldn't get a verdict, but they weren't sure because,
(03:16):
as you said, it never happened before. They'd had to
go back through common law in Australia to see if
there was any similar situations, although they were pretty confident
that there weren't, and they'd also gone back to the
UK to look at it as well. Because of the
way that the leagues to see if the precedence they
had come across something sort of similar, where it had
(03:38):
been a judge and jury. The jury had found the
accused guilty on a number of charges, but I think
either hadn't deliberated or we're in the process of deliberating
on the others. When the accus stood committed suicide, that
was sort of the only thing that came close. Otherwise,
for all intents and purposes, they've nod.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
So it's unprecedented one. I know, when we're on the
talking on the podcast, I was sort of putting my
mind to it, and I couldn't recall a situation similar.
But I felt then in discussions with view, it would
be a simple process if it went to the coroner
and the judges got the already made the decision. I
(04:20):
can understand there might be some legislation that prevents the
documentation and or the judges' findings being handed over, even
though from a common sense point I'm going to say,
I'm trying to sound like a sensible and the legal
from a common sense point of view, I can't, for
the life of me see why the decision by the
judge can't be passed on to the coroner. The coron
(04:42):
that can have a look at that and then make
a finding based on that.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
So I had a meeting with the Attorney General, and
his response from the Legal Department, and I'm not entirely
sure who constitutes that, was that you can't give a
verdict if there's no one to punish, because there is
a likelihood that they will be found guilty. The other
(05:08):
thing is that you know, the way that the law
currently stands is that if at any process during the
trial the accused becomes deceased, then that's the end of
the trial. And that's the way that the law stands.
And my response was, well, that doesn't mean that it
can't be changed. So from my perspective, he participated in
(05:31):
the trial the way that he decided to. He had
full ability to do so. And once the end of
that trial was reached and everyone was dismissed and the
judge retired to consider her verdict, you're not going to
have her come across anything new or untoward or suddenly
be found for her to rewrite a verdict. And the
(05:52):
fact that he committed suicide doesn't change what she'd already written.
I think in that aspect, the family at least are owed,
you know, the knowledge of what that verdict was. And
I've since found out that not even the coroner has
access to it. It is sealed from anybody at all,
(06:14):
apart from the judge who was going to deliver it.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, it's complex. It seems so simple looking from outside,
doesn't it. And they were referring to the principle of
abatement where the trial ends with the death of the
accused because there's no one to punish. But yeah, sadly
it's the families family of your sister that's been punished
(06:41):
not finding out what's happened. I'm getting a sense and
just seeing the first morning of the inquest, to my
way of thinking, there's a whole lot of evidence being
presented to the coroner. That is the type of evidence
that would have been presented in the murder trial, and
the coroner were making her findings based on the information
(07:03):
that's presented to it. But understanding, this is an in quest,
so it's not the same as a criminal court.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, So my understanding is that there is a standard
that has to be reached for a criminal court. Evidence
has to reach that standard before.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
It can be beyond the red submitted.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
And a coroner's in quest is where they look at
all the evidence and its relevance to the case. So
there's been stuff that has been included in coroners that
wasn't included in criminal court because of its relevance. And
another thing with that is if anything can be deemed
prejudicial in the criminal court, then it wouldn't be admitted either.
(07:42):
So there's parts of it that I'm certainly familiar with,
and then there's other aspects that are slightly new to me,
simply because I wasn't allowed to, as we've spoken, witness
what was going on in court for the first two weeks.
And there's other things that you know, I just I
wasn't aware of because as hard as you try, I
(08:03):
wasn't able to watch everything. So yeah, there's a distinct difference.
I also find that Cournus Court is a lot more
supportive of the family, Like it was acknowledged of us
that we were there and that it's been quite trying.
But it's pretty harrowing to have to re listen to
someone life through their teeth, to be quite honest.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Well, sitting sitting there today and yeah, that's the difference
between an inquisitorial which is the inquest, and the adversarial system,
which is the criminal courts. But I was very mindful
of yourself and other family members sitting there and hearing
hearing the evidence play out again. You've already been through it,
been for it once, and here you are again. I
(08:44):
don't know, call me a simple man, but I would
like to think with a stroke of a pen and
then Attorney General could make an informed decision and say, hey,
this is a unique set of circumstances. This hasn't occurred
before because what you relayed where they look back in
the past law even over to the UK, it wasn't
the exact set of circumstances. This was a unique set
(09:06):
of circumstances. I think it would be very extremely unlikely
it would occur again and perhaps save a lot of people,
a lot of banks and a lot of heartache, and
a simple decision could have been made.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I hope that the government looks at this and takes
whatever recommendations the coroner has decided that she needs to
do on board. She can't force them. One of those
things would be to stop another family going through the
same thing. And as you said, it's a unique set
of circumstances. You can be quite specific with legislation. You
(09:43):
can say, you know, you can put certain parameters around
so that it can't be used to as a precedent
for other cases or to other situations. So no, I don't.
I don't think it's that hard either.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
No, And I understand the in fairness to the coroner,
she's bound by the legislation than the counsel assisting. But
I see what the family is going through, and my
observation of the police as well that they're frustrated by this.
It seems to be they've already done this and now
they're doing it again. So yeah, I again, in very
simplistic terms, I think the laws there the serve society,
(10:18):
and if society is not being served, maybe there needs
to be changes.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
I'm in complete and utter agreement, especially with all the
man hours and the work that they put into the investigation.
You know, you've experienced it yourself, time away from kids,
time away from family, you know, missing out on point
and celebrations and you know, random phone calls in the
middle of the night and all that sort of stuff.
(10:44):
You know, I just think all that work and to
not get a result in any way, shape or form.
It's an insult.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, if you want to get a sense of who
Lisel was and what her family has been through, how
about you have a listen to our original interview we
did with Geraldine. Have a listen. The public has had
a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side
of life. The average person has never exposed her I
spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five
(11:16):
of those years I was catching killers. That's what I
did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm
no longer just interviewing bad guys, said, I'm taking the
public into the world in which I operated. The guests
I talk to each week have amazing stories from all
sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
just like the people I talked to. Some of the
content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
(11:38):
who comes in the contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Lisel Smith
was just twenty three years old when she vanished from
the central coast of New South Wales. That was back
in twenty twelve, the New South Wales Lees believe that
(12:01):
she was murdered and they know who is responsible. Despite this,
no one has been convicted of the suspected murder. Today's
guest is Liesl's older sister, Geraldine Kane. Geraline contacted me
and asked if I could help her get justice for
a sister. Knowing the pain suffered by families to find
justice for missing or murdered loved ones, it was a
difficult request to say no to. I never worked on
(12:23):
Liesl's case, but I am for me with what appears
to be an unprecedented roadblock in finding out what happened
to Lisel. I think there is power in telling stories,
so I asked Geraldine to come on I Catch Killers
and share her story. Who knows, perhaps if enough people
are aware of what has occurred, the justice system might
just find the way to provide answers for a grieving family.
(12:46):
I honestly don't think it's that hard. Geraldine Kine, welcome
to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Thank you for having me Gay Well.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Look, firstly, up front, I want to offer my condolences
to what you've been through as a family with the
disappearance of your sister Lisel Smith. And I know it's
ten years ago or a little bit more. The pain
doesn't go away, does it.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
No, you learn to live with it, but you never
get over it.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah. I think people unless you've been there, people don't understand.
And I know in the times that I spent in homicide,
I had people and I was mortified when I heard
them say it, especially to families of missing persons or
people that have been murdered, that you just got to
get on with your life. And it's easier said than done.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, it certainly is. I remember when I first heard
that Lisal had gone missing, my world essentially stopped, you know,
all of a sudden, I became one of those people
that happened to and the world just stopped for me.
(13:54):
And you know, I think it was about It took
a good twelve months before felt like it started back
up again and took me with it. And that was
something that I wasn't prepared for. You know, it's you
get the news that your sister's missing, and you know
you want everyone to jump on board and do everything
that they can. And Loaren a founder of MPN, which
(14:17):
is now known as the Misfoundation put it quite well
in terms of, you know, you expect what you say
on TV to occur. You know, you expect the dogs,
and you expect all the police force, and we had nothing.
We really didn't get any of that. And from what
I understand that's a lot of other people's experiences that
have got missing people as well, is that everyone else
(14:37):
tends to or it seems to be, seems to go
on with their daily lives like nothing's happened, and you're
standing in the middle of it, or feeling like, well,
hang on, you know, my sister's missing, this is important.
Why aren't you doing anything? And it's it's a very
discompopulating feeling in all honesty. It you know, work goes
(15:00):
life goes on, and you can't stop it. No matter
what you want done or how you want things done.
Life still goes on. But for you it seems to stop.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, it's a couple of points that you've raised air
and you articulated very well. But firstly, there's a disconnect
from us when I say us people that haven't been
impacted like you and your family have been impacted because
we watch it play out on TV. Someone's gone missing,
and you'd be thinking, Oh, that's that would be bad,
but then it's a fleeting thought and then you get
(15:34):
on with your life. And it's really the type of
situation that you never think that you would find yourself in.
And I think that's why people we almost and I
hate to say it, but become desensitized to it because
it gets reported that often and Okay, well that's happened,
let's move on. But you articulated very well that you
want the world to stop. Your loved one is missing,
(15:57):
something terrible has happened. You know, your worst thoughts would
be going through your mind. Why is the world carrying
on as usual? How can people celebrate a weekend coming up?
Or how can people look forward to anything because you've
got your love one missing. Is that the type of
deep emotion you feel?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, it is. I liken it to what I do
for work. So my background is critical care and emergency
and ICU, and I was working in ICU towards the end,
but initially when I found out that Least was missing,
I was in remote wa and I was doing My
initial background is emergency and you know, I have seen
(16:36):
some very interesting and very tragic things occur in the
course of my career. I'm a registered nurse, and I
have had to constantly remind myself that, yes, this is
what I do. I love what I do. I empathize,
you know, with a lot of the patients that I
care for and have cared for, and yes I do it,
you know, as a career. But I am constantly aware
(17:00):
of that while that's my career, you know, I can
still step away from it. And you know, for the
people that whatever has occurred, especially tragic situations, that this
is that has occurred to them, it's the worst day
of their lives, you know, and they're going through that
experience for the first time ever. They may or may
(17:20):
not ever go through something similar again, and you know,
it's all new for them. And I liken to finding
out les or going missing, to being put in that position.
You know, people that you come into contact with that
for example, police that do their job such as this
on a day on, day in, day out basis. You know,
(17:44):
my experience is certainly that some do forget that you know,
what you're going through you've never experienced before, and some
compassion and empathy goes a long way, as does communication.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
I understand that because what you're talking about in the
emergency section of a hospital, people can be and we've
all encountered doctors in those situations that they're a little
bit aloof and just okay, well, you've got six months
to live that type of coutry and then walk out
the door a little bit of humanity, compassion and empathy.
(18:17):
You've just know that it makes such a difference, doesn't
it If anyone in that position, whether it be in
the medical section or in policing, that carries a lot,
doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
It does, And it's just it's I think it's that
human connection that you know, someone who doesn't know you
from a burrow soap can sit and just listen. You
don't you don't expect them to fix the problem. You know, realistically,
you know that there's no possible way of the problem
being fixed. But you've at least connected on a human level.
(18:51):
You know, you've been listened to, and you've been heard,
and it's been recognized that what you're experiencing, for one
of a better word, really sucks. And just that recognition,
I think is what anybody wants or needs, or even
if they can't verbalize it, you know, desires in that
moment of experiencing such a tragedy or whatever situation is
(19:13):
going on for them. And I think that gets lost
these days by any number of people. And I think
that the meaning and I guess the meaningfulness of it
and the impact it has on someone is not to
be underestimated.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
No, it's not not fully appreciated in some regards. I
just want to get a sense of your world at
the time. But first of all, let's find out about Lisel.
Who she was. She was a younger sister.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
She was a younger sister.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yes, tell us about Lisal before she disappeared.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Gosh. I was actually thinking a couple of days ago
a story popped into my head. I was at school.
I think Lisal was at home. She hadn't started KINDI
or anything at that point in time. And I got
in trouble for losing my school shoes. And I'd been
in trouble quite a few times before, and this particular time,
(20:08):
I got in quite a lot of trouble because it
had been a couple of days and we couldn't find them,
and I was adamant I'd left them at the front door,
and it was getting to the point where I was
going to need a new pair of school shoes. And
so we had a dam. We grew up on a property,
and there were my school shoes half in the dam
and half out, and I'm like, well, I didn't go
down there. And you know what had actually happened was
lee'saul had wanted to feed the ducks. So she grabbed
(20:31):
a loaf of bread that had gone missing. That was
the other thing that no one could work out at
the time, a loaf of bread from the kitchen, and
decided to go feed the ducks. Well, the only shoes
that were near the back door were my school shoes,
so she's popped them on and she's wandered down and
my stepped out at the time was in my NaN's house.
Switch we had two houses on the property, and just
so happened to see Lisal halfway up, I believe in
up to her waisting water in the dam, flew out
(20:53):
of NaN's house, flew down across to the down It
was good, you know, two hundred and fifty odd meters plus,
you know, pulled her out of the water because she's
you know, wanting to feed ducks and keep going in
And didn't realize at the time that she'd wore my
school shoes down.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Okay, so a young younger sister, even at that stage
course causing, knew dramas.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Oh not dramas, but her focus was the animals.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So, okay, that's pretty cool. What age difference was it
between you two?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
There was nine years, so she was born in nineteen
eighty nine. The sury in our family goes that my
mum went into labor on April Fool's Day, Fool's Day,
and she flat out she used to have an April
Fool's baby, so she didn't start pushing until it hit April.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
A second, she waited, she waited.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
She was not having a baby on the April. The
first put it that way.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
And where did you guys grow up where they were?
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Well, you're up on the Central Coast. So there's a
suburb called blue Haven which is all developed out now.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
But we had changed dramatically.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Has it has changed? I don't even recognize where I
grew up anymore. We grew up on fifty acres. It
was all semi rural at the time, and blue Haven
was the main part of the suburb was down the
road that we lived on. Our property backed onto the
Pacific Highway, the oh Pacific Highway going up through doyleson
up to Swansea, and we were pretty much, you know,
(22:17):
free to rime. I remember being told if I got lost,
because I used to take myself on expeditions, either keep
going on direction, I'd either hit the neighbors, the road
that we lived on, or the Pacific Highway and then
just follow it around until I got home.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Right, Okay, So at the time it was at twenty
twelve Lese will disappeared, Yes, correct, What was what was
your situation there? You mentioned you're working in the remote
location in Wa at the time.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, So I'd moved to Tazzi about eighteen months before
for work and budget cuts went through and I was
on a contract and that wasn't renewed. So it was
the last minute scramble at the time to find work elsewhere.
And so I'd always wanted to go to remote and
after a discussion my partner who I'm now married to,
and going through an agency, I ended up in Leonora,
(23:04):
of all places, which is it was a good introduction.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
What part of Wa is that.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
It's about It's two and a half hours northeast of
Calgooli Okay, yeah, so we are Goldfield.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
It's remote, Yeah, very very remote. Yeah, so Lisa, what
was she doing at that stage of her life? She
was twenty three?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, about that she was involved working for horse stables.
She was living with my step or my stepdad, her dad,
and we didn't talk a lot. We hadn't sort of
seen each other in a while.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
But she was that tafe.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
She was doing a I think it was a certificate
in Animal management management all was something. You know, she
loved animals, She loved working with horses in particular, as
you know, she had a as people might know, she
had a horse, Molly that was in full that she
was really looking forward to. Yeah, and you know, it
seemed to be quite happy with what she was doing
(24:06):
with her life as far as I was aware.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Okay, so you're and I'm just trying to get a
sense of it so people can appreciate the impact that
the following events have. You're living as families do. You're
living on the other or different locations, but you're still
in contact. There's probably not as much as you should,
but yeah, you know, you're there for each other. When
did you find out when was the first inclination you
(24:29):
got that Liseel was missing.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
It was I think two weeks after she'd gone missing.
Timeline's a bit sketchy. At the time. I actually got
an email from my stepdad from memory saying that Lisa
gone missing. What I didn't know at the time and
found out later was that she'd been missing for a
(24:53):
week before she was reported to the police as been
missing by my stepdad.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Any any reason for that at all the circumstances, or.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
You'd have to ask him, right, I have no idea.
I've talked about it with my husband since, and as
he's indicated to me, you know, if I wasn't home
at the time that I said that I was home,
he'd start ringing people. You know, he'd give me half
an hour grace. You know, we've all got phones, and
if he hadn't heard from me, then you know, he'd
start making contact with friends and work and you know,
(25:25):
start going where is she, what she's doing? So I
don't know his reasons for that, And I remember just
looking at the email in utter disbelief and thinking, missing,
what do you mean she's gone missing? Like, you know,
hang on a second, And I remember contacting the local
police officer. I think it was like a two man
(25:46):
police station in Leonora. It certainly wasn't a big one.
And he'd know me because he'd brought people in to
the hospital and all that sort of stuff. So he
was able to verify my identity and he tried to
get in contact with New South Wales police to try
and find out for me, and they wouldn't tell him
a thing.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
So one play service not tell any other police service.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Revolutionary I know, yeah, pretty much. They wouldn't give him
any information whatsoever. And he was like, look, I can
verify I've seen her id she works at the hospital,
and they wouldn't give him any information. I was, I
think a month and a bit off finishing the contract
that I had, and so there wasn't really a lot
that I could do at the time, and I didn't
(26:28):
know how to get in contact, like I didn't know
where she'd been reported as missing or who I was
able to talk to. He managed to from memory get
those details and I ended up having I think an
initial touch base and they sort of asked me, when
was the last time you'd seen her, and I said, well,
it was eighteen months prior to that, yep, where I'd
(26:51):
had a conversation with her, and then they sort of
mentioned that they wanted me to come in for a
statement at some point, but they didn't seemed to be
a huge amount of urgency over.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
It was that when you were was that communication by
the phone when you're still in wa or.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yes, I had to pick up another phone because the
phone service that I was with at the time wasn't covered,
So I believe the communication was through that phone. It
wasn't through my normal phone.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Numbal, What was going through your mind? Like your stepfather
has sent you an email and said, look at your
sister's missing. Did you have details missing in suspicious circumstances
or missing as in she said she's going to go
travel around Australia or she What was going through your mind?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I was incredulous. I was a bit flabbergast. Said that
she was missing and I was being given minimal detail.
All he'd said was that she had left a house
at one o'clock in the afternoon on Sunday, the nineteenth August.
She had dressed up to some degree, and he said,
you know, because I had a conversation with him later
(27:58):
she looked really good, and that she said, I'll be
back at five to feed the animals because the horses
needed feeding and she had you know, she had a
dog called Natsi, and if there was a few other
animals that were that were there at the time. And
she didn't initially come home at five, he didn't, I believe,
think too much of it. You know, she's a grown woman.
(28:21):
She might have gotten caught up or something. And then
sort of time went on and she didn't turn up,
and then the night went she didn't turn up. So
I believe he assumed she'd stayed the night somewhere and
a phone was flat or something. I don't know, but yeah,
it wasn't til a week later that he reported her missing,
(28:41):
which I just I don't understand to this day. I
just don't understand how you can wait a week even
giving someone oh, you know, they've probably crashed somewhere or
their phone side or you know whatever, twenty four hours, okay, fine,
But you know, in this day and age, I mean
even a decade ago, there were ways in means of
contacting people, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
And one hundred percent and there's different ways, and there's
this fallacy that you can't report people missing unless it's
been twenty four hours and all that. I think lazy
police just spread that message because circumstances dictate whether something's
concerning or something suspicious. And when you've got a lady
like your sister who said I'm going to be home
(29:25):
at such and such a time, has responsibilities at home
that clearly she shows she's reliable, would come home and
feed the animals, things like that, right from the start,
there's concerns. So I suppose there's no Well, the police
can't do anything until someone brings it to their attention.
But yeah, this is strange that the concern wasn't raised
(29:48):
earlier for whatever reasons. We probably don't know when it
was brought to the attention of the police. Do you
know what sort of response was done at the time?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Very lackl so was the information I was given. My
step dad turned around and said he'd walked into police
station at seven thirty in the morning. I initially assumed
that he'd gone in the next morning when he said
seven thirty in the morning. As I said, I didn't
find out till later that there was a week a
week's gap, So I'd assumed that he'd gone in at
seven thirty Monday morning to why on police station and had,
(30:22):
in his words, had tried to report Lisel missing and
had basically been blown off. According to him, the police
were too busy watching the weather report or sunrise or
something that was on at the time. So apparently there
was just a complete lack of interest in taking the report,
(30:44):
a lack of interest as to where she was or
what she was doing or you know, and a lack
of concern. You know, I think from the information that
I have, they were essentially like, she's a grown woman,
you know, she could be anywhere. Yeah, the fact that
it was out of character for her didn't seem to
(31:05):
warrant concern for them as far as I'm aware.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
There's some very simple inquiries that can be made when
someone is reported reported missing and access to the phone
bank bank records, that type of thing, and if someone's
phone has just stopped being used, it's fairly telling that
there potentially could be a problem. It's not it's not
a lay down mas air that something horrible's happened. The
(31:32):
phone might have broken, but it would be a concern
not meeting commitments, whether that being feeding the animals, turning
up for employment. Study or whatever, not using a bank account.
Will these things explored? They were.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
I don't know the timeline as to how soon they
were explored. I don't know whether it was like within
a couple of weeks or within a couple of months,
or I do remember being assified. Had any Facebook response
to the Facebook message that I had sent, which was
pretty soon after finding out that Lisa had gone missing.
I never ever got a response to that. I'd given
(32:07):
my number and I said, if you didn't, you know,
didn't want to contact me, contact anybody, get a message
to us. And we never heard anything. And then I
think I think it was at least six months into
the investigation that information started to trickle through that she
hadn't access to her bank accounts. Facebook, you know, wasn't
(32:29):
being used. There been you know, none of the day
to day detail, you know, life detail of bills and
utilities and you know payments and transactions that you know
everyone sort of does without thinking two seconds of it.
That leaves a trail.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
It's very hard to go off the grid, yeah, back then,
back then, even more so today. But it's very hard
to go off the grid as a time war on,
like we're talking, yeah, seek months now, what was going
through your mind.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
I just wanted to know where she was, if she
was okay, if she'd managed to go off the grid,
whatever her reasons were, that she was safe, that you know,
she had somewhere to stay, that she had something, you know,
I had the ability to look after herself. Even now,
(33:24):
I will still catch myself looking for her. I've had
a few double takes where I've you know, quickly turned
my head twice because I you know, think, oh, that
looks like you know her. There was a number of
times where, you know, you go on a bit of
a roller coaster where you you know, you hope that
(33:47):
she's alive, and you're like, yep, she's got to be alive.
And then there's other times where you're like, there's no
information she has an access bank account, there's nothing to
indicate that she is. You do lots of what I
call other crying, because you're just riding that roller coaster,
you know, from one extreme to the other, trying to
work out what's going on, and that desperation that you know,
(34:11):
against all odds, even though you know the reality of it.
And my poor husband, you know, I don't know how
he managed to keep it together for both of us,
because for the initials six to twelve months, I was
a pretty big mess, especially at home. It got to
(34:31):
the point where I couldn't do the roller coaster ride anymore.
I just it wasn't possible. I'd come home back to
Tazzy sort of at the start of October, mid October,
and I was just like, from now on, she's alive
until I get any other anything otherwise to prove that
she's not.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
That's the mindset.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
That was the mindset I had to take for my
own sanity, yep, because I just I was just tearing
myself apart, you know, mentally, going from one extreme to
the other, and I just I couldn't do that to myself,
and I couldn't put my family through that.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I gerald then the way that you've just described that,
I've heard that from other family members of different different cases,
that really it is soul destroying. It rips you apart.
On one hand, you're thinking, you're thinking there is a
chance a miracle might happen, she might walk through the door.
(35:26):
Then you think, no, am I just am I kidding myself?
So you've got all these mixed emotions that you're going
through You've got to get on with your life, and
it's just so difficult. So it sounds like you're lucky
that you had your husband there supporting you during that
period of time, but it's basically, how do you get
on with life when you love ones missing like that?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
What else do you do? I can't sit in a
corner and rock you know, I've still got to go
to work. I've still got bills to pay, I've got
responsibilities to my family. As much as you want the
world to stop and to wait until they come home,
for me, at least, it wasn't an option. I still
had to get on and to some degree, being at work,
(36:07):
I hadn't told everyone what was happening. My bosses knew,
mostly because my husband actually had to come pick me
up at one point and that was it. But work
gave me some sort of normalcy where you know, I
wasn't thinking about Lisaul. I was dealing with somebody else's
issues and that was my focus for the day. And
(36:27):
then you know, I could go back home and the
worst thing about being at home would be was that
I'd get home and I'd be like, oh, I didn't
think about Lisa. Little for eight hours, and then I'd
feel guilty that I hadn't thought of her for eight hours.
But then you end up in a worse spot because
you feel guilty about not thinking of her when really
you're trying to get on with life, and there's nothing
(36:50):
wrong with that, but it all gets so muddled up
in your head and you end up with such a
sense of sense of guilt. All I did at least
that it just it just yeah, it ends as you said,
It ends up being sold.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Hearing what you're saying, and it's an emotional rollercoaster, and
that sense of guilt is how should I How can
I get on with my life? I don't know what's
happened to my sister. If I'm not going to fight for,
who's going to fight for? All these emotions can't come through.
So it is I describe it. I don't know if
it's the right way to describe it, but I think
it actually covers it's like a living hell when someone
(37:24):
goes missing, and I've seen it too often with families
and on investigations I've been involved in just looking for answers.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
And that's all you want. You just want answers. You
might not like those answers. You don't have to like
those answers, but like any any person who's got a
missing person, you just want an answer of some sort,
you know, just to process. And as I said, you're
(37:53):
not you know, it doesn't have to be an answer
that you're going to want or like, and it not
always is, but it's an answer. It's something rather than nothing.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Then you know what you're dealing with. Yeah, you've got
to deal with it. It's something tangible that you understand.
The investigation into Liesel's disappearance. What was the progress of that?
When did you start to think something was happening on
that front?
Speaker 2 (38:19):
It was probably when I heard that they had charged
the suspect with her murder, which was about six years
after she'd gone missing.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Had you been aware that the suspect had been identified
in this matter?
Speaker 2 (38:35):
I got a phone call from my stepdad saying that
they had arrested him.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
I knew he was person of interest.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah, a person of interest. I knew.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
I knew that because he How did you know that?
What filtered through to.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
You about my stepdad had mentioned that the police had
been investigating him and then through media reports, Okay, the
police were not the most compared passionate people I've ever
come across at that point in time, and some of
the things that were said to us, and the way that,
at least when I had my contact with them, that
(39:09):
I was treated was pretty disgusting to be quite frank.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Was this prior to prior to this person being charged? Yes, yeah, okay,
tell me about that. We won't mention mention the names,
but just in a general sense, how it made you feel.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
I basically felt like we were being treated as if
we were the ones that had done something wrong. I
at one point felt when there was a discussion between
a couple of the detectives and someone quite senior, we
were being told off like naughty children.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
In what regardless, we got.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Told that we shouldn't have gone higher up, that we
weren't to bother the person with the concerns that we had,
that we should have gone to the person who were
having the meeting with. The whole point of going higher
up was because we were getting nothing from the people
that we were in contact with.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
You know, when you're talking, it's just so people understand,
because we had a conversation a couple of days ago
about this that you were asking for information about the
investigation and speaking to certain police and the information wasn't
forthcoming and the response you thought was inadequate. So you
went then above the chain of command above that officer
(40:20):
and spoke to a senior officer and you got chastised
by the original office of her going above. Yeah, is
that the fair assessment?
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Pretty much in a nutshell?
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, I think and I understood you explained it, and
I'm just we'll try and pick bits and pieces out
of it from the conversation we had before that you
want the details of the investigation, and it was basically
told you can't have details of the investigation, which you
seem like a reasonable person, then you can understand that
(40:50):
the integrity of investigation needs to come first. But it
was a manner in which you were told that you
took issue with.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, it was the tone and it was the way
that you know, we were spoken to. If they hadn't
turned around and said, look, you know we are actively investigating.
There are certain things that we can't tell you because
you know we're prevented from doing that. But you know
you will find out at some point. We just can't
tell you right now. I would have gone Okay, fine,
(41:18):
I at least get the sense that you're working on
the case, that you're doing something to try and find
my sister. But you know, I, at least I don't know.
You know, I can't speak for my stepdad and my mum,
but I at least wasn't getting any information whatsoever apart
from what was being drip fed to me by my
stepdad at the time, which was on a you know,
what he felt I needed to know. And it wasn't
(41:40):
until I got involved with family and friends of Missing
Persons unit counselors and they were fantastic. I can't speak
of them highly enough. They went digging and got me
in contact with a social worker. This was well passed
after the person had been charged and I started being
able to find out information direct and you know, the
stuff that I hadn't been told was just phenomenal in
(42:03):
all honesty, and.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Look, I'll give a perspective from police, but will balance
that out as well then that there is sometimes that
you can't pass information onto people that potential witness in
a matter. I think most reasonable people understand that you
said what you would have accepted, and just reminded me
of time and time again. I've had that same conversation
(42:27):
with families of murdered victims where they're asking about the investigation,
and I say, and it was countless times that I
can't tell you now. The reason I can't tell you
now is I don't want to jeopardize the investigation. But
there will be some point in time when we can
sit down and I will go through absolutely everything and
answer all your questions. And that seemed to bring some
(42:48):
comfort to the people that were inquiring, and it gives
them the confidence that people are working on the investigation.
We start this chat and we're talking about compassionate humanity
and empathy. Jesus carries a long way in this type
of situation, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
It sure does. And you know, if someone had have
said what you've said, you know, to us that that
would have been fine. You know, I'm as you said,
you know reasonable, I understand that there's things that can't
be said, you don't. You know, the last thing that
any missing person family, if there's a person of interest
in the investigation, want to do, is compromise the investigation
(43:26):
or have it compromised if there's potentially you know, in
roads being made. The last thing you want to do
is muck that up. You know, would have been quite
happy to go Okay, great, no dramas, let us know
when you can just keep in touch, you know, even
if it's to say, look, I haven't got any new news,
but we're still going. It would have made me at
(43:49):
least feel hurt, and you know, I guess connected in
the way that someone was doing something if I even
if I couldn't do it myself because I'm not a
police officer. My ability lies in other areas. At least
the people that could were.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yeah, it's important, and that would make it make a
difference difference for you, give you some comfort from an
emotional point of view, the fact that progress has been
made on the investigation, was it we've mixed emotions because
the investigation at this point in time had turned into
a murder investigation. Was it mixed emotions that this information
was forthcoming to you?
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Yeah. I remember the day that I found out that
it had turned into a homicide investigation, and I was
driving in the car. I was about thirty seconds from home,
and I walked through the front door and I lost it.
I absolutely just burst into tears and lost it, and
my poor husband was like, what's wrong, Like, what's going on?
(44:49):
And I think it took me five minutes to get
out that it had changed from a missing person's investigation
to a homicide. And it's certainly up there with one
of the worst my life because any hope, majority of
hope that I had was pretty much quashed. There was
sort of not really any support offered. You know, I
(45:12):
didn't have anyone else to talk to apart from my
husband and you know, his parents, who you know have
been fantastic as well. And then and then.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
How did you become aware? You said in the in
the car, was it that.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
I had a phone call? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Right?
Speaker 2 (45:29):
And it was just dumped on me. From memory, I
think it was my stepdad because he'd been hauled into
the police station to say that that's that's what it
was now becoming. And it was It was pretty devastating.
I didn't know how or why they had come to
(45:50):
that conclusion. I assumed that they must have found her,
and you know, it was like, oh God. And then
I don't know if there was a miscommunication or a
misunderstanding or I was then told no, it's not a
homicide investigation. It's gone back to a missing persons and
I'm like, well, hang on a second, and then went
back to a homicide investigation. So I'm assuming there was
(46:11):
some sort of miscommunication between the police and my family,
but that was that was more of a rollercoat, that
wasn't just a rollercoaster ride, that was being dropped off
a cliff face. And after that, I was like, no,
I can't just accept that she's gone on the basis
(46:32):
of that. They've changed the investigations. So I was like,
until I see or hear a forensic evidence, I will
keep a small shred of hope alive. And that's basically
what got me out of it in the morning. For
a very long time.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Okay, I can see the emotion and hear the emotion
that I reliving that. I'm sorry we're talking about this
because it's clearly clearly upsetting the person, the suspect and
the person that was charged with Liesl's murder, James Church.
Did you know him? When did you become aware of
(47:09):
the name?
Speaker 2 (47:11):
So my stepdad he'd mentioned that Lisa had been seeing him,
and then obviously you know with media reports when he
was arrested and you know, going through the court process,
I had seen him once and the only reason I
recognized him was because i'd seen his picture in the media,
(47:31):
you know, when he'd been arrested.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
When you said you've seen him once growing up or early, well.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
This was after oh, this was before he'd been charged.
I was driving where my stepdad lives and happened to
see him from a memory. I didn't say anything, I
didn't speak to him. I literally drove past him and
that was it.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
And what was his association with Lisel?
Speaker 2 (47:57):
He was a farrier and that's how they met. He
ended up helping her with her horses, and she ended
up helping I think to some degree, you know, with
the horses that he had, or horses of friends of
his or something. I'm not quite strong the details, but
you know, the horse world is relatively small, so I
(48:17):
guess it was a matter of time before they ran
into each other.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
And as far you knew at that time that did
you know they were in the relationship or having the
relationship prior to Losl's not prior to Lisel's disappearance, but
prior to James Church being charged.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah, I knew that they'd been in some sort of relationship.
The parameters of that obviously I wasn't entirely clear about
but I did know that that had some sort of
thing going I guess, but I didn't. I wasn't fully
aware of just exactly what had been going on until
the trial.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Okay, when he was charged? How did you find out
that there's one thing that's a person of interest in it? Investigation?
Next step is if someone's been charged. How did you
find out that James Church had been charged?
Speaker 2 (49:07):
My stepdad rang me and told me, I can't remember
where I was or what I was doing, but I
was like, oh, okay, and then jumped online and it
showed him being arrested and you know, being led into
the I think it was the police house, not the
footage that was there.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
I could imagine a thousand questions going through your mind
at that stage.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
The biggest thing for me that will never be answered
is why she trusted him. You know, she obviously trusted him,
And I will never ever understand how someone who is
so special apparently or you know, as he said, you know,
they had such a special relationship, you know, they were
(49:50):
more than best mates. How what or what would possess
you to think that treating someone like that is okay?
Speaker 1 (50:00):
How does it get to that we in the conversation
that we we had a couple of days back, you're saying,
have this just seemed so surreal to you because it's
not a world that you see glimpses of on TV.
You see it in the movies, you see this, but
here you are a person has been in charge with
(50:20):
the murder of your sister.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
In some ways, there was relief. You know, I remember thinking, well,
they finally got someone. And my understanding of the process
is that there has to be substantial evidence to charge
someone with a charge like that. You know, it's not
something or you know, you forged a signature, it's.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
It's a pretty serious.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
You know, it's probably one of the most serious things
that you can be charged with, and that you know,
police need to take the case to the DPP and
you know, make a case, and you know, you say, look,
we have a fairly with you substantial conviction that we
will get this, you know through and you know, obviously
the DPAP is privy to a whole bunch of things,
(51:07):
and know, sub standard that needs to be met, and
you know, the chances of getting a conviction based on
the evidence. You know, there's all that sort of stuff.
So it's not something that's taken lightly, was my understanding.
So I thought, Okay, well, they've obviously got something, you know,
and again I was like, right, until I have forensics,
(51:27):
she's not gone. And so I was relieved in some
some ways that Okay, they've they've got something that, you know,
not changed, they're tuned, but they've progressed, I guess with
how they viewed this particular person. He's gone from a
person of interest too, you know, a suspect. And I
remember also feeling guilty that there was relief because you know,
(51:52):
you don't want to acknowledge that they're gone, because then
you know you're I guess the term survivors guild. You
know they're not here, but you are. And you've basically
gone on with your life for the last six years
because you've had to, you know, and all the things
that society you know, celebrates and whatnot has happened as well.
(52:16):
And then I remember thinking, I need, I need to
find out how they've gotten to this point, and I
got in touch with the solicitor who was in charge
of the case. I'd spoken to the social worker, and
I remember I got the phone call at work. It
was midshift, and I asked a number of questions, and
(52:38):
obviously they were constrained with what they could answer. I
actually found speaking to them a lot better than speaking
to the police, and I remember asking is their forensic evidence?
Like you know' that's my end point. And I remember
she was really lovely. She went very quiet and she
was like, I'm really sorry. We have no doubt that
(53:02):
she's dead. And she wasn't. She wasn't trying to be
horrible in the way that she said that, but I
think she wanted to make sure that there was clarification.
There was absolutely no confusion about their position. And I
was like, are you sure, and they said, yeah, we're sorry,
but you know, we're convinced that she's no longer here.
I remember thanking them, funnily enough, hanging up the phone,
(53:27):
walking out with tears praying down my face, and one
of the sane members on staff took one look at
me and went, what's wrong. And I remember saying, just
get one of the bosses, because they knew what was
going on. And I walked back into the locker room
and collapsed in front of my locker and sobbed. One
(53:53):
of my bosses came in because she knew what was
going on, and they called Matt. He had to come
and get me from work.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
I obviously couldn't.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Finish the shift, and I from memory, I think I
took a couple of days off work after that I
was due and your leave as well, so I ended up,
I think all up having about three weeks off just
trying to process. Fortunately, for the latter part of the
time that I had off, we were actually out of
(54:24):
the country. We're overseas, so I was able to get
out and not be at home and easily contactable, which
was a good thing in hindsight.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
Just like the emotional journey that you're on going through
the start with your sister missing, then not hearing anything,
then finally years down the track and we're talking six years,
aren't we.
Speaker 2 (54:48):
Yeah he was charged in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
Down the track, and then processing with that look, I think,
how about we take a break now, and yeah, apologize
for taking you through this, because we're obviously digging up
some raw emotions. But this is the impact, and I
think it articulates very clearly what you've described, the impact
(55:11):
that when loved one goes missing or is murdered that
the ramifications just go right through and it's such a difficult,
difficult thing to come to terms with and deal with
when we get back in the part two, let's talk
about the trial, the highs and the lows of the
trial because they are an emotional rollercoaster within themselves, but
(55:32):
the dramatic twist at the end that no one saw
coming and when Nana discupts options on how you might
be able to get some answers and justice to find
out what's happened to your sister. So let's take a break.
I think we all need to need a break because
of pretty heavy, heavy topic, and we'll come back and
cover those points in part two.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
Nice thanks Jim
Speaker 1 (55:54):
Cheers, then their food and told die mis
Hi, guys. Two years ago we spoke to Geraldine Kane,
whose sister Lisel Smith was murdered and her body has
never been found. A man called Jim Church was charged
with murder of Lisel and what followed was a lengthy
thirteen and a half week trial. But just hours before
the judge handed down the verdict, Church took his own life,
(00:21):
which meant the judge's decision is sealed forever, meaning the
family will never know if Church was found guilty or not.
From my observations, the police have done a very thorough
investigation into the disappearance of Lisel. During our podcast with
Geraldine in twenty twenty three, we called for a cranial inquest,
and now two years later, that's exactly where we are.
(00:43):
We're here for the inquest into the suspicious disappearance of
Lisel Smith, who was just twenty three years old when
she vanished from the Central Coast on New South Wales
in twenty twelve. It was a unique situation. When I
say unique. First of all, Geraline, thanks for having a
chat here.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
No problem, thanks for having me harry again.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Yeah, Well, just to explain, because it was a case
that was very troubling and the end results and are
the ones that have really I haven't seen it occur
in all the time that I've been involved in homicide
investigations or missing persons. What happened. The person was charged
with Liesl's murder and it was a murder trial was
(01:26):
conducted with a judge only trial, so there was no jury,
and then the judge has made the decision. Following I
think it was thirteen weeks thirteen and a half, Yeah,
thirteen and a half weeks of evidence where the murder
trial was run, the judge had come to a conclusion
and she'd summoned all the interested parties into appear at court.
(01:48):
On that very day, the person that was charged with
the murder killed himself.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, apparently, I think it was the day before that
we got the phone call stating that there'd been a
notification to ambulance and police that there was a deceased
person at his address and we were due to fly
up the morning of the verdict, and the social worker
(02:14):
rang me and said that there'd been a development, and
I thought, you know what, he's guilty, and I would
have been quite surprised if that had been the case,
and she was quite hesitant to explain over the phone,
and I said her, you need to tell me because
I'm at work and I've got five and a half
hours to go and with what I do, I can't
(02:34):
not be focused. So she got in contact with the
two DPP barristers who were running the case at the time.
She needed to have a quick chat to them, and
then she was going to get back to me, and
I said great. She rang me back and said that
ambulance and police, in particular the detectives were on their
(02:56):
way to confirm that he had committed suicide. As I
said on the podcast, I believe, I swore, and then
said to my boss I was off the floor. My
husband had to come and pick me up, and we
ended up having a teleconference at work using my boss's computer,
and we were warned that it was most likely that
we wouldn't get a verdict, but they weren't sure because,
(03:16):
as you said, it never happened before. They'd had to
go back through common law in Australia to see if
there was any similar situations, although they were pretty confident
that there weren't, and they'd also gone back to the
UK to look at it as well. Because of the
way that the leagues to see if the precedence they
had come across something sort of similar, where it had
(03:38):
been a judge and jury. The jury had found the
accused guilty on a number of charges, but I think
either hadn't deliberated or we're in the process of deliberating
on the others. When the accus stood committed suicide, that
was sort of the only thing that came close. Otherwise,
for all intents and purposes, they've nod.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
So it's unprecedented one. I know, when we're on the
talking on the podcast, I was sort of putting my
mind to it, and I couldn't recall a situation similar.
But I felt then in discussions with view, it would
be a simple process if it went to the coroner
and the judges got the already made the decision. I
(04:20):
can understand there might be some legislation that prevents the
documentation and or the judges' findings being handed over, even
though from a common sense point I'm going to say,
I'm trying to sound like a sensible and the legal
from a common sense point of view, I can't, for
the life of me see why the decision by the
judge can't be passed on to the coroner. The coron
(04:42):
that can have a look at that and then make
a finding based on that.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
So I had a meeting with the Attorney General, and
his response from the Legal Department, and I'm not entirely
sure who constitutes that, was that you can't give a
verdict if there's no one to punish, because there is
a likelihood that they will be found guilty. The other
(05:08):
thing is that you know, the way that the law
currently stands is that if at any process during the
trial the accused becomes deceased, then that's the end of
the trial. And that's the way that the law stands.
And my response was, well, that doesn't mean that it
can't be changed. So from my perspective, he participated in
(05:31):
the trial the way that he decided to. He had
full ability to do so. And once the end of
that trial was reached and everyone was dismissed and the
judge retired to consider her verdict, you're not going to
have her come across anything new or untoward or suddenly
be found for her to rewrite a verdict. And the
(05:52):
fact that he committed suicide doesn't change what she'd already written.
I think in that aspect, the family at least are owed,
you know, the knowledge of what that verdict was. And
I've since found out that not even the coroner has
access to it. It is sealed from anybody at all,
(06:14):
apart from the judge who was going to deliver it.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, it's complex. It seems so simple looking from outside,
doesn't it. And they were referring to the principle of
abatement where the trial ends with the death of the
accused because there's no one to punish. But yeah, sadly
it's the families family of your sister that's been punished
(06:41):
not finding out what's happened. I'm getting a sense and
just seeing the first morning of the inquest, to my
way of thinking, there's a whole lot of evidence being
presented to the coroner. That is the type of evidence
that would have been presented in the murder trial, and
the coroner were making her findings based on the information
(07:03):
that's presented to it. But understanding, this is an in quest,
so it's not the same as a criminal court.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, So my understanding is that there is a standard
that has to be reached for a criminal court. Evidence
has to reach that standard before.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
It can be beyond the red submitted.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
And a coroner's in quest is where they look at
all the evidence and its relevance to the case. So
there's been stuff that has been included in coroners that
wasn't included in criminal court because of its relevance. And
another thing with that is if anything can be deemed
prejudicial in the criminal court, then it wouldn't be admitted either.
(07:42):
So there's parts of it that I'm certainly familiar with,
and then there's other aspects that are slightly new to me,
simply because I wasn't allowed to, as we've spoken, witness
what was going on in court for the first two weeks.
And there's other things that you know, I just I
wasn't aware of because as hard as you try, I
(08:03):
wasn't able to watch everything. So yeah, there's a distinct difference.
I also find that Cournus Court is a lot more
supportive of the family, Like it was acknowledged of us
that we were there and that it's been quite trying.
But it's pretty harrowing to have to re listen to
someone life through their teeth, to be quite honest.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Well, sitting sitting there today and yeah, that's the difference
between an inquisitorial which is the inquest, and the adversarial system,
which is the criminal courts. But I was very mindful
of yourself and other family members sitting there and hearing
hearing the evidence play out again. You've already been through it,
been for it once, and here you are again. I
(08:44):
don't know, call me a simple man, but I would
like to think with a stroke of a pen and
then Attorney General could make an informed decision and say, hey,
this is a unique set of circumstances. This hasn't occurred
before because what you relayed where they look back in
the past law even over to the UK, it wasn't
the exact set of circumstances. This was a unique set
(09:06):
of circumstances. I think it would be very extremely unlikely
it would occur again and perhaps save a lot of people,
a lot of banks and a lot of heartache, and
a simple decision could have been made.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
I hope that the government looks at this and takes
whatever recommendations the coroner has decided that she needs to
do on board. She can't force them. One of those
things would be to stop another family going through the
same thing. And as you said, it's a unique set
of circumstances. You can be quite specific with legislation. You
(09:43):
can say, you know, you can put certain parameters around
so that it can't be used to as a precedent
for other cases or to other situations. So no, I don't.
I don't think it's that hard either.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
No, And I understand the in fairness to the coroner,
she's bound by the legislation than the counsel assisting. But
I see what the family is going through, and my
observation of the police as well that they're frustrated by this.
It seems to be they've already done this and now
they're doing it again. So yeah, I again, in very
simplistic terms, I think the laws there the serve society,
(10:18):
and if society is not being served, maybe there needs
to be changes.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
I'm in complete and utter agreement, especially with all the
man hours and the work that they put into the investigation.
You know, you've experienced it yourself, time away from kids,
time away from family, you know, missing out on point
and celebrations and you know, random phone calls in the
middle of the night and all that sort of stuff.
(10:44):
You know, I just think all that work and to
not get a result in any way, shape or form.
It's an insult.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, if you want to get a sense of who
Lisel was and what her family has been through, how
about you have a listen to our original interview we
did with Geraldine. Have a listen. The public has had
a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side
of life. The average person has never exposed her I
spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five
(11:16):
of those years I was catching killers. That's what I
did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm
no longer just interviewing bad guys, said, I'm taking the
public into the world in which I operated. The guests
I talk to each week have amazing stories from all
sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
just like the people I talked to. Some of the
content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
(11:38):
who comes in the contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Lisel Smith
was just twenty three years old when she vanished from
the central coast of New South Wales. That was back
in twenty twelve, the New South Wales Lees believe that
(12:01):
she was murdered and they know who is responsible. Despite this,
no one has been convicted of the suspected murder. Today's
guest is Liesl's older sister, Geraldine Kane. Geraline contacted me
and asked if I could help her get justice for
a sister. Knowing the pain suffered by families to find
justice for missing or murdered loved ones, it was a
difficult request to say no to. I never worked on
(12:23):
Liesl's case, but I am for me with what appears
to be an unprecedented roadblock in finding out what happened
to Lisel. I think there is power in telling stories,
so I asked Geraldine to come on I Catch Killers
and share her story. Who knows, perhaps if enough people
are aware of what has occurred, the justice system might
just find the way to provide answers for a grieving family.
(12:46):
I honestly don't think it's that hard. Geraldine Kine, welcome
to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Thank you for having me Gay Well.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Look, firstly, up front, I want to offer my condolences
to what you've been through as a family with the
disappearance of your sister Lisel Smith. And I know it's
ten years ago or a little bit more. The pain
doesn't go away, does it.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
No, you learn to live with it, but you never
get over it.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah. I think people unless you've been there, people don't understand.
And I know in the times that I spent in homicide,
I had people and I was mortified when I heard
them say it, especially to families of missing persons or
people that have been murdered, that you just got to
get on with your life. And it's easier said than done.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, it certainly is. I remember when I first heard
that Lisal had gone missing, my world essentially stopped, you know,
all of a sudden, I became one of those people
that happened to and the world just stopped for me.
(13:54):
And you know, I think it was about It took
a good twelve months before felt like it started back
up again and took me with it. And that was
something that I wasn't prepared for. You know, it's you
get the news that your sister's missing, and you know
you want everyone to jump on board and do everything
that they can. And Loaren a founder of MPN, which
(14:17):
is now known as the Misfoundation put it quite well
in terms of, you know, you expect what you say
on TV to occur. You know, you expect the dogs,
and you expect all the police force, and we had nothing.
We really didn't get any of that. And from what
I understand that's a lot of other people's experiences that
have got missing people as well, is that everyone else
(14:37):
tends to or it seems to be, seems to go
on with their daily lives like nothing's happened, and you're
standing in the middle of it, or feeling like, well,
hang on, you know, my sister's missing, this is important.
Why aren't you doing anything? And it's it's a very
discompopulating feeling in all honesty. It you know, work goes
(15:00):
life goes on, and you can't stop it. No matter
what you want done or how you want things done.
Life still goes on. But for you it seems to stop.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, it's a couple of points that you've raised air
and you articulated very well. But firstly, there's a disconnect
from us when I say us people that haven't been
impacted like you and your family have been impacted because
we watch it play out on TV. Someone's gone missing,
and you'd be thinking, Oh, that's that would be bad,
but then it's a fleeting thought and then you get
(15:34):
on with your life. And it's really the type of
situation that you never think that you would find yourself in.
And I think that's why people we almost and I
hate to say it, but become desensitized to it because
it gets reported that often and Okay, well that's happened,
let's move on. But you articulated very well that you
want the world to stop. Your loved one is missing,
(15:57):
something terrible has happened. You know, your worst thoughts would
be going through your mind. Why is the world carrying
on as usual? How can people celebrate a weekend coming up?
Or how can people look forward to anything because you've
got your love one missing. Is that the type of
deep emotion you feel?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, it is. I liken it to what I do
for work. So my background is critical care and emergency
and ICU, and I was working in ICU towards the end,
but initially when I found out that Least was missing,
I was in remote wa and I was doing My
initial background is emergency and you know, I have seen
(16:36):
some very interesting and very tragic things occur in the
course of my career. I'm a registered nurse, and I
have had to constantly remind myself that, yes, this is
what I do. I love what I do. I empathize,
you know, with a lot of the patients that I
care for and have cared for, and yes I do it,
you know, as a career. But I am constantly aware
(17:00):
of that while that's my career, you know, I can
still step away from it. And you know, for the
people that whatever has occurred, especially tragic situations, that this
is that has occurred to them, it's the worst day
of their lives, you know, and they're going through that
experience for the first time ever. They may or may
(17:20):
not ever go through something similar again, and you know,
it's all new for them. And I liken to finding
out les or going missing, to being put in that position.
You know, people that you come into contact with that
for example, police that do their job such as this
on a day on, day in, day out basis. You know,
(17:44):
my experience is certainly that some do forget that you know,
what you're going through you've never experienced before, and some
compassion and empathy goes a long way, as does communication.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
I understand that because what you're talking about in the
emergency section of a hospital, people can be and we've
all encountered doctors in those situations that they're a little
bit aloof and just okay, well, you've got six months
to live that type of coutry and then walk out
the door a little bit of humanity, compassion and empathy.
(18:17):
You've just know that it makes such a difference, doesn't
it If anyone in that position, whether it be in
the medical section or in policing, that carries a lot,
doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
It does, And it's just it's I think it's that
human connection that you know, someone who doesn't know you
from a burrow soap can sit and just listen. You
don't you don't expect them to fix the problem. You know, realistically,
you know that there's no possible way of the problem
being fixed. But you've at least connected on a human level.
(18:51):
You know, you've been listened to, and you've been heard,
and it's been recognized that what you're experiencing, for one
of a better word, really sucks. And just that recognition,
I think is what anybody wants or needs, or even
if they can't verbalize it, you know, desires in that
moment of experiencing such a tragedy or whatever situation is
(19:13):
going on for them. And I think that gets lost
these days by any number of people. And I think
that the meaning and I guess the meaningfulness of it
and the impact it has on someone is not to
be underestimated.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
No, it's not not fully appreciated in some regards. I
just want to get a sense of your world at
the time. But first of all, let's find out about Lisel.
Who she was. She was a younger sister.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
She was a younger sister.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yes, tell us about Lisal before she disappeared.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Gosh. I was actually thinking a couple of days ago
a story popped into my head. I was at school.
I think Lisal was at home. She hadn't started KINDI
or anything at that point in time. And I got
in trouble for losing my school shoes. And I'd been
in trouble quite a few times before, and this particular time,
(20:08):
I got in quite a lot of trouble because it
had been a couple of days and we couldn't find them,
and I was adamant I'd left them at the front door,
and it was getting to the point where I was
going to need a new pair of school shoes. And
so we had a dam. We grew up on a property,
and there were my school shoes half in the dam
and half out, and I'm like, well, I didn't go
down there. And you know what had actually happened was
lee'saul had wanted to feed the ducks. So she grabbed
(20:31):
a loaf of bread that had gone missing. That was
the other thing that no one could work out at
the time, a loaf of bread from the kitchen, and
decided to go feed the ducks. Well, the only shoes
that were near the back door were my school shoes,
so she's popped them on and she's wandered down and
my stepped out at the time was in my NaN's house.
Switch we had two houses on the property, and just
so happened to see Lisal halfway up, I believe in
up to her waisting water in the dam, flew out
(20:53):
of NaN's house, flew down across to the down It
was good, you know, two hundred and fifty odd meters plus,
you know, pulled her out of the water because she's
you know, wanting to feed ducks and keep going in
And didn't realize at the time that she'd wore my
school shoes down.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Okay, so a young younger sister, even at that stage
course causing, knew dramas.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Oh not dramas, but her focus was the animals.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So, okay, that's pretty cool. What age difference was it
between you two?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
There was nine years, so she was born in nineteen
eighty nine. The sury in our family goes that my
mum went into labor on April Fool's Day, Fool's Day,
and she flat out she used to have an April
Fool's baby, so she didn't start pushing until it hit April.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
A second, she waited, she waited.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
She was not having a baby on the April. The
first put it that way.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
And where did you guys grow up where they were?
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Well, you're up on the Central Coast. So there's a
suburb called blue Haven which is all developed out now.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
But we had changed dramatically.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Has it has changed? I don't even recognize where I
grew up anymore. We grew up on fifty acres. It
was all semi rural at the time, and blue Haven
was the main part of the suburb was down the
road that we lived on. Our property backed onto the
Pacific Highway, the oh Pacific Highway going up through doyleson
up to Swansea, and we were pretty much, you know,
(22:17):
free to rime. I remember being told if I got lost,
because I used to take myself on expeditions, either keep
going on direction, I'd either hit the neighbors, the road
that we lived on, or the Pacific Highway and then
just follow it around until I got home.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Right, Okay, So at the time it was at twenty
twelve Lese will disappeared, Yes, correct, What was what was
your situation there? You mentioned you're working in the remote
location in Wa at the time.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, So I'd moved to Tazzi about eighteen months before
for work and budget cuts went through and I was
on a contract and that wasn't renewed. So it was
the last minute scramble at the time to find work elsewhere.
And so I'd always wanted to go to remote and
after a discussion my partner who I'm now married to,
and going through an agency, I ended up in Leonora,
(23:04):
of all places, which is it was a good introduction.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
What part of Wa is that.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
It's about It's two and a half hours northeast of
Calgooli Okay, yeah, so we are Goldfield.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
It's remote, Yeah, very very remote. Yeah, so Lisa, what
was she doing at that stage of her life? She
was twenty three?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, about that she was involved working for horse stables.
She was living with my step or my stepdad, her dad,
and we didn't talk a lot. We hadn't sort of
seen each other in a while.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
But she was that tafe.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
She was doing a I think it was a certificate
in Animal management management all was something. You know, she
loved animals, She loved working with horses in particular, as
you know, she had a as people might know, she
had a horse, Molly that was in full that she
was really looking forward to. Yeah, and you know, it
seemed to be quite happy with what she was doing
(24:06):
with her life as far as I was aware.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Okay, so you're and I'm just trying to get a
sense of it so people can appreciate the impact that
the following events have. You're living as families do. You're
living on the other or different locations, but you're still
in contact. There's probably not as much as you should,
but yeah, you know, you're there for each other. When
did you find out when was the first inclination you
(24:29):
got that Liseel was missing.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
It was I think two weeks after she'd gone missing.
Timeline's a bit sketchy. At the time. I actually got
an email from my stepdad from memory saying that Lisa
gone missing. What I didn't know at the time and
found out later was that she'd been missing for a
(24:53):
week before she was reported to the police as been
missing by my stepdad.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Any any reason for that at all the circumstances, or.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
You'd have to ask him, right, I have no idea.
I've talked about it with my husband since, and as
he's indicated to me, you know, if I wasn't home
at the time that I said that I was home,
he'd start ringing people. You know, he'd give me half
an hour grace. You know, we've all got phones, and
if he hadn't heard from me, then you know, he'd
start making contact with friends and work and you know,
(25:25):
start going where is she, what she's doing? So I
don't know his reasons for that, And I remember just
looking at the email in utter disbelief and thinking, missing,
what do you mean she's gone missing? Like, you know,
hang on a second, And I remember contacting the local
police officer. I think it was like a two man
(25:46):
police station in Leonora. It certainly wasn't a big one.
And he'd know me because he'd brought people in to
the hospital and all that sort of stuff. So he
was able to verify my identity and he tried to
get in contact with New South Wales police to try
and find out for me, and they wouldn't tell him
a thing.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
So one play service not tell any other police service.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Revolutionary I know, yeah, pretty much. They wouldn't give him
any information whatsoever. And he was like, look, I can
verify I've seen her id she works at the hospital,
and they wouldn't give him any information. I was, I
think a month and a bit off finishing the contract
that I had, and so there wasn't really a lot
that I could do at the time, and I didn't
(26:28):
know how to get in contact, like I didn't know
where she'd been reported as missing or who I was
able to talk to. He managed to from memory get
those details and I ended up having I think an
initial touch base and they sort of asked me, when
was the last time you'd seen her, and I said, well,
it was eighteen months prior to that, yep, where I'd
(26:51):
had a conversation with her, and then they sort of
mentioned that they wanted me to come in for a
statement at some point, but they didn't seemed to be
a huge amount of urgency over.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
It was that when you were was that communication by
the phone when you're still in wa or.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yes, I had to pick up another phone because the
phone service that I was with at the time wasn't covered,
So I believe the communication was through that phone. It
wasn't through my normal phone.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Numbal, What was going through your mind? Like your stepfather
has sent you an email and said, look at your
sister's missing. Did you have details missing in suspicious circumstances
or missing as in she said she's going to go
travel around Australia or she What was going through your mind?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I was incredulous. I was a bit flabbergast. Said that
she was missing and I was being given minimal detail.
All he'd said was that she had left a house
at one o'clock in the afternoon on Sunday, the nineteenth August.
She had dressed up to some degree, and he said,
you know, because I had a conversation with him later
(27:58):
she looked really good, and that she said, I'll be
back at five to feed the animals because the horses
needed feeding and she had you know, she had a
dog called Natsi, and if there was a few other
animals that were that were there at the time. And
she didn't initially come home at five, he didn't, I believe,
think too much of it. You know, she's a grown woman.
(28:21):
She might have gotten caught up or something. And then
sort of time went on and she didn't turn up,
and then the night went she didn't turn up. So
I believe he assumed she'd stayed the night somewhere and
a phone was flat or something. I don't know, but yeah,
it wasn't til a week later that he reported her missing,
(28:41):
which I just I don't understand to this day. I
just don't understand how you can wait a week even
giving someone oh, you know, they've probably crashed somewhere or
their phone side or you know whatever, twenty four hours, okay, fine,
But you know, in this day and age, I mean
even a decade ago, there were ways in means of
contacting people, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
And one hundred percent and there's different ways, and there's
this fallacy that you can't report people missing unless it's
been twenty four hours and all that. I think lazy
police just spread that message because circumstances dictate whether something's
concerning or something suspicious. And when you've got a lady
like your sister who said I'm going to be home
(29:25):
at such and such a time, has responsibilities at home
that clearly she shows she's reliable, would come home and
feed the animals, things like that, right from the start,
there's concerns. So I suppose there's no Well, the police
can't do anything until someone brings it to their attention.
But yeah, this is strange that the concern wasn't raised
(29:48):
earlier for whatever reasons. We probably don't know when it
was brought to the attention of the police. Do you
know what sort of response was done at the time?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Very lackl so was the information I was given. My
step dad turned around and said he'd walked into police
station at seven thirty in the morning. I initially assumed
that he'd gone in the next morning when he said
seven thirty in the morning. As I said, I didn't
find out till later that there was a week a
week's gap, So I'd assumed that he'd gone in at
seven thirty Monday morning to why on police station and had,
(30:22):
in his words, had tried to report Lisel missing and
had basically been blown off. According to him, the police
were too busy watching the weather report or sunrise or
something that was on at the time. So apparently there
was just a complete lack of interest in taking the report,
(30:44):
a lack of interest as to where she was or
what she was doing or you know, and a lack
of concern. You know, I think from the information that
I have, they were essentially like, she's a grown woman,
you know, she could be anywhere. Yeah, the fact that
it was out of character for her didn't seem to
(31:05):
warrant concern for them as far as I'm aware.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
There's some very simple inquiries that can be made when
someone is reported reported missing and access to the phone
bank bank records, that type of thing, and if someone's
phone has just stopped being used, it's fairly telling that
there potentially could be a problem. It's not it's not
a lay down mas air that something horrible's happened. The
(31:32):
phone might have broken, but it would be a concern
not meeting commitments, whether that being feeding the animals, turning
up for employment. Study or whatever, not using a bank account.
Will these things explored? They were.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
I don't know the timeline as to how soon they
were explored. I don't know whether it was like within
a couple of weeks or within a couple of months,
or I do remember being assified. Had any Facebook response
to the Facebook message that I had sent, which was
pretty soon after finding out that Lisa had gone missing.
I never ever got a response to that. I'd given
(32:07):
my number and I said, if you didn't, you know,
didn't want to contact me, contact anybody, get a message
to us. And we never heard anything. And then I
think I think it was at least six months into
the investigation that information started to trickle through that she
hadn't access to her bank accounts. Facebook, you know, wasn't
(32:29):
being used. There been you know, none of the day
to day detail, you know, life detail of bills and
utilities and you know payments and transactions that you know
everyone sort of does without thinking two seconds of it.
That leaves a trail.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
It's very hard to go off the grid, yeah, back then,
back then, even more so today. But it's very hard
to go off the grid as a time war on,
like we're talking, yeah, seek months now, what was going
through your mind.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
I just wanted to know where she was, if she
was okay, if she'd managed to go off the grid,
whatever her reasons were, that she was safe, that you know,
she had somewhere to stay, that she had something, you know,
I had the ability to look after herself. Even now,
(33:24):
I will still catch myself looking for her. I've had
a few double takes where I've you know, quickly turned
my head twice because I you know, think, oh, that
looks like you know her. There was a number of
times where, you know, you go on a bit of
a roller coaster where you you know, you hope that
(33:47):
she's alive, and you're like, yep, she's got to be alive.
And then there's other times where you're like, there's no
information she has an access bank account, there's nothing to
indicate that she is. You do lots of what I
call other crying, because you're just riding that roller coaster,
you know, from one extreme to the other, trying to
work out what's going on, and that desperation that you know,
(34:11):
against all odds, even though you know the reality of it.
And my poor husband, you know, I don't know how
he managed to keep it together for both of us,
because for the initials six to twelve months, I was
a pretty big mess, especially at home. It got to
(34:31):
the point where I couldn't do the roller coaster ride anymore.
I just it wasn't possible. I'd come home back to
Tazzy sort of at the start of October, mid October,
and I was just like, from now on, she's alive
until I get any other anything otherwise to prove that
she's not.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
That's the mindset.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
That was the mindset I had to take for my
own sanity, yep, because I just I was just tearing
myself apart, you know, mentally, going from one extreme to
the other, and I just I couldn't do that to myself,
and I couldn't put my family through that.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I gerald then the way that you've just described that,
I've heard that from other family members of different different cases,
that really it is soul destroying. It rips you apart.
On one hand, you're thinking, you're thinking there is a
chance a miracle might happen, she might walk through the door.
(35:26):
Then you think, no, am I just am I kidding myself?
So you've got all these mixed emotions that you're going
through You've got to get on with your life, and
it's just so difficult. So it sounds like you're lucky
that you had your husband there supporting you during that
period of time, but it's basically, how do you get
on with life when you love ones missing like that?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
What else do you do? I can't sit in a
corner and rock you know, I've still got to go
to work. I've still got bills to pay, I've got
responsibilities to my family. As much as you want the
world to stop and to wait until they come home,
for me, at least, it wasn't an option. I still
had to get on and to some degree, being at work,
(36:07):
I hadn't told everyone what was happening. My bosses knew,
mostly because my husband actually had to come pick me
up at one point and that was it. But work
gave me some sort of normalcy where you know, I
wasn't thinking about Lisaul. I was dealing with somebody else's
issues and that was my focus for the day. And
(36:27):
then you know, I could go back home and the
worst thing about being at home would be was that
I'd get home and I'd be like, oh, I didn't
think about Lisa. Little for eight hours, and then I'd
feel guilty that I hadn't thought of her for eight hours.
But then you end up in a worse spot because
you feel guilty about not thinking of her when really
you're trying to get on with life, and there's nothing
(36:50):
wrong with that, but it all gets so muddled up
in your head and you end up with such a
sense of sense of guilt. All I did at least
that it just it just yeah, it ends as you said,
It ends up being sold.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Hearing what you're saying, and it's an emotional rollercoaster, and
that sense of guilt is how should I How can
I get on with my life? I don't know what's
happened to my sister. If I'm not going to fight for,
who's going to fight for? All these emotions can't come through.
So it is I describe it. I don't know if
it's the right way to describe it, but I think
it actually covers it's like a living hell when someone
(37:24):
goes missing, and I've seen it too often with families
and on investigations I've been involved in just looking for answers.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
And that's all you want. You just want answers. You
might not like those answers. You don't have to like
those answers, but like any any person who's got a
missing person, you just want an answer of some sort,
you know, just to process. And as I said, you're
(37:53):
not you know, it doesn't have to be an answer
that you're going to want or like, and it not
always is, but it's an answer. It's something rather than nothing.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Then you know what you're dealing with. Yeah, you've got
to deal with it. It's something tangible that you understand.
The investigation into Liesel's disappearance. What was the progress of that?
When did you start to think something was happening on
that front?
Speaker 2 (38:19):
It was probably when I heard that they had charged
the suspect with her murder, which was about six years
after she'd gone missing.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Had you been aware that the suspect had been identified
in this matter?
Speaker 2 (38:35):
I got a phone call from my stepdad saying that
they had arrested him.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
I knew he was person of interest.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah, a person of interest. I knew.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
I knew that because he How did you know that?
What filtered through to.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
You about my stepdad had mentioned that the police had
been investigating him and then through media reports, Okay, the
police were not the most compared passionate people I've ever
come across at that point in time, and some of
the things that were said to us, and the way that,
at least when I had my contact with them, that
(39:09):
I was treated was pretty disgusting to be quite frank.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Was this prior to prior to this person being charged? Yes, yeah, okay,
tell me about that. We won't mention mention the names,
but just in a general sense, how it made you feel.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
I basically felt like we were being treated as if
we were the ones that had done something wrong. I
at one point felt when there was a discussion between
a couple of the detectives and someone quite senior, we
were being told off like naughty children.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
In what regardless, we got.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Told that we shouldn't have gone higher up, that we
weren't to bother the person with the concerns that we had,
that we should have gone to the person who were
having the meeting with. The whole point of going higher
up was because we were getting nothing from the people
that we were in contact with.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
You know, when you're talking, it's just so people understand,
because we had a conversation a couple of days ago
about this that you were asking for information about the
investigation and speaking to certain police and the information wasn't
forthcoming and the response you thought was inadequate. So you
went then above the chain of command above that officer
(40:20):
and spoke to a senior officer and you got chastised
by the original office of her going above. Yeah, is
that the fair assessment?
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Pretty much in a nutshell?
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, I think and I understood you explained it, and
I'm just we'll try and pick bits and pieces out
of it from the conversation we had before that you
want the details of the investigation, and it was basically
told you can't have details of the investigation, which you
seem like a reasonable person, then you can understand that
(40:50):
the integrity of investigation needs to come first. But it
was a manner in which you were told that you
took issue with.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, it was the tone and it was the way
that you know, we were spoken to. If they hadn't
turned around and said, look, you know we are actively investigating.
There are certain things that we can't tell you because
you know we're prevented from doing that. But you know
you will find out at some point. We just can't
tell you right now. I would have gone Okay, fine,
(41:18):
I at least get the sense that you're working on
the case, that you're doing something to try and find
my sister. But you know, I, at least I don't know.
You know, I can't speak for my stepdad and my mum,
but I at least wasn't getting any information whatsoever apart
from what was being drip fed to me by my
stepdad at the time, which was on a you know,
what he felt I needed to know. And it wasn't
(41:40):
until I got involved with family and friends of Missing
Persons unit counselors and they were fantastic. I can't speak
of them highly enough. They went digging and got me
in contact with a social worker. This was well passed
after the person had been charged and I started being
able to find out information direct and you know, the
stuff that I hadn't been told was just phenomenal in
(42:03):
all honesty, and.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Look, I'll give a perspective from police, but will balance
that out as well then that there is sometimes that
you can't pass information onto people that potential witness in
a matter. I think most reasonable people understand that you
said what you would have accepted, and just reminded me
of time and time again. I've had that same conversation
(42:27):
with families of murdered victims where they're asking about the investigation,
and I say, and it was countless times that I
can't tell you now. The reason I can't tell you
now is I don't want to jeopardize the investigation. But
there will be some point in time when we can
sit down and I will go through absolutely everything and
answer all your questions. And that seemed to bring some
(42:48):
comfort to the people that were inquiring, and it gives
them the confidence that people are working on the investigation.
We start this chat and we're talking about compassionate humanity
and empathy. Jesus carries a long way in this type
of situation, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
It sure does. And you know, if someone had have
said what you've said, you know, to us that that
would have been fine. You know, I'm as you said,
you know reasonable, I understand that there's things that can't
be said, you don't. You know, the last thing that
any missing person family, if there's a person of interest
in the investigation, want to do, is compromise the investigation
(43:26):
or have it compromised if there's potentially you know, in
roads being made. The last thing you want to do
is muck that up. You know, would have been quite
happy to go Okay, great, no dramas, let us know
when you can just keep in touch, you know, even
if it's to say, look, I haven't got any new news,
but we're still going. It would have made me at
(43:49):
least feel hurt, and you know, I guess connected in
the way that someone was doing something if I even
if I couldn't do it myself because I'm not a
police officer. My ability lies in other areas. At least
the people that could were.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yeah, it's important, and that would make it make a
difference difference for you, give you some comfort from an
emotional point of view, the fact that progress has been
made on the investigation, was it we've mixed emotions because
the investigation at this point in time had turned into
a murder investigation. Was it mixed emotions that this information
was forthcoming to you?
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Yeah. I remember the day that I found out that
it had turned into a homicide investigation, and I was
driving in the car. I was about thirty seconds from home,
and I walked through the front door and I lost it.
I absolutely just burst into tears and lost it, and
my poor husband was like, what's wrong, Like, what's going on?
(44:49):
And I think it took me five minutes to get
out that it had changed from a missing person's investigation
to a homicide. And it's certainly up there with one
of the worst my life because any hope, majority of
hope that I had was pretty much quashed. There was
sort of not really any support offered. You know, I
(45:12):
didn't have anyone else to talk to apart from my
husband and you know, his parents, who you know have
been fantastic as well. And then and then.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
How did you become aware? You said in the in
the car, was it that.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
I had a phone call? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Right?
Speaker 2 (45:29):
And it was just dumped on me. From memory, I
think it was my stepdad because he'd been hauled into
the police station to say that that's that's what it
was now becoming. And it was It was pretty devastating.
I didn't know how or why they had come to
(45:50):
that conclusion. I assumed that they must have found her,
and you know, it was like, oh God. And then
I don't know if there was a miscommunication or a
misunderstanding or I was then told no, it's not a
homicide investigation. It's gone back to a missing persons and
I'm like, well, hang on a second, and then went
back to a homicide investigation. So I'm assuming there was
(46:11):
some sort of miscommunication between the police and my family,
but that was that was more of a rollercoat, that
wasn't just a rollercoaster ride, that was being dropped off
a cliff face. And after that, I was like, no,
I can't just accept that she's gone on the basis
(46:32):
of that. They've changed the investigations. So I was like,
until I see or hear a forensic evidence, I will
keep a small shred of hope alive. And that's basically
what got me out of it in the morning. For
a very long time.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Okay, I can see the emotion and hear the emotion
that I reliving that. I'm sorry we're talking about this
because it's clearly clearly upsetting the person, the suspect and
the person that was charged with Liesl's murder, James Church.
Did you know him? When did you become aware of
(47:09):
the name?
Speaker 2 (47:11):
So my stepdad he'd mentioned that Lisa had been seeing him,
and then obviously you know with media reports when he
was arrested and you know, going through the court process,
I had seen him once and the only reason I
recognized him was because i'd seen his picture in the media,
(47:31):
you know, when he'd been arrested.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
When you said you've seen him once growing up or early, well.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
This was after oh, this was before he'd been charged.
I was driving where my stepdad lives and happened to
see him from a memory. I didn't say anything, I
didn't speak to him. I literally drove past him and
that was it.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
And what was his association with Lisel?
Speaker 2 (47:57):
He was a farrier and that's how they met. He
ended up helping her with her horses, and she ended
up helping I think to some degree, you know, with
the horses that he had, or horses of friends of
his or something. I'm not quite strong the details, but
you know, the horse world is relatively small, so I
(48:17):
guess it was a matter of time before they ran
into each other.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
And as far you knew at that time that did
you know they were in the relationship or having the
relationship prior to Losl's not prior to Lisel's disappearance, but
prior to James Church being charged.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah, I knew that they'd been in some sort of relationship.
The parameters of that obviously I wasn't entirely clear about
but I did know that that had some sort of
thing going I guess, but I didn't. I wasn't fully
aware of just exactly what had been going on until
the trial.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Okay, when he was charged? How did you find out
that there's one thing that's a person of interest in it? Investigation?
Next step is if someone's been charged. How did you
find out that James Church had been charged?
Speaker 2 (49:07):
My stepdad rang me and told me, I can't remember
where I was or what I was doing, but I
was like, oh, okay, and then jumped online and it
showed him being arrested and you know, being led into
the I think it was the police house, not the
footage that was there.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
I could imagine a thousand questions going through your mind
at that stage.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
The biggest thing for me that will never be answered
is why she trusted him. You know, she obviously trusted him,
And I will never ever understand how someone who is
so special apparently or you know, as he said, you know,
they had such a special relationship, you know, they were
(49:50):
more than best mates. How what or what would possess
you to think that treating someone like that is okay?
Speaker 1 (50:00):
How does it get to that we in the conversation
that we we had a couple of days back, you're saying,
have this just seemed so surreal to you because it's
not a world that you see glimpses of on TV.
You see it in the movies, you see this, but
here you are a person has been in charge with
(50:20):
the murder of your sister.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
In some ways, there was relief. You know, I remember thinking, well,
they finally got someone. And my understanding of the process
is that there has to be substantial evidence to charge
someone with a charge like that. You know, it's not
something or you know, you forged a signature, it's.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
It's a pretty serious.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
You know, it's probably one of the most serious things
that you can be charged with, and that you know,
police need to take the case to the DPP and
you know, make a case, and you know, you say, look,
we have a fairly with you substantial conviction that we
will get this, you know through and you know, obviously
the DPAP is privy to a whole bunch of things,
(51:07):
and know, sub standard that needs to be met, and
you know, the chances of getting a conviction based on
the evidence. You know, there's all that sort of stuff.
So it's not something that's taken lightly, was my understanding.
So I thought, Okay, well, they've obviously got something, you know,
and again I was like, right, until I have forensics,
(51:27):
she's not gone. And so I was relieved in some
some ways that Okay, they've they've got something that, you know,
not changed, they're tuned, but they've progressed, I guess with
how they viewed this particular person. He's gone from a
person of interest too, you know, a suspect. And I
remember also feeling guilty that there was relief because you know,
(51:52):
you don't want to acknowledge that they're gone, because then
you know you're I guess the term survivors guild. You
know they're not here, but you are. And you've basically
gone on with your life for the last six years
because you've had to, you know, and all the things
that society you know, celebrates and whatnot has happened as well.
(52:16):
And then I remember thinking, I need, I need to
find out how they've gotten to this point, and I
got in touch with the solicitor who was in charge
of the case. I'd spoken to the social worker, and
I remember I got the phone call at work. It
was midshift, and I asked a number of questions, and
(52:38):
obviously they were constrained with what they could answer. I
actually found speaking to them a lot better than speaking
to the police, and I remember asking is their forensic evidence?
Like you know' that's my end point. And I remember
she was really lovely. She went very quiet and she
was like, I'm really sorry. We have no doubt that
(53:02):
she's dead. And she wasn't. She wasn't trying to be
horrible in the way that she said that, but I
think she wanted to make sure that there was clarification.
There was absolutely no confusion about their position. And I
was like, are you sure, and they said, yeah, we're sorry,
but you know, we're convinced that she's no longer here.
I remember thanking them, funnily enough, hanging up the phone,
(53:27):
walking out with tears praying down my face, and one
of the sane members on staff took one look at
me and went, what's wrong. And I remember saying, just
get one of the bosses, because they knew what was
going on. And I walked back into the locker room
and collapsed in front of my locker and sobbed. One
(53:53):
of my bosses came in because she knew what was
going on, and they called Matt. He had to come
and get me from work.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
I obviously couldn't.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Finish the shift, and I from memory, I think I
took a couple of days off work after that I
was due and your leave as well, so I ended up,
I think all up having about three weeks off just
trying to process. Fortunately, for the latter part of the
time that I had off, we were actually out of
(54:24):
the country. We're overseas, so I was able to get
out and not be at home and easily contactable, which
was a good thing in hindsight.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
Just like the emotional journey that you're on going through
the start with your sister missing, then not hearing anything,
then finally years down the track and we're talking six years,
aren't we.
Speaker 2 (54:48):
Yeah he was charged in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
Down the track, and then processing with that look, I think,
how about we take a break now, and yeah, apologize
for taking you through this, because we're obviously digging up
some raw emotions. But this is the impact, and I
think it articulates very clearly what you've described, the impact
(55:11):
that when loved one goes missing or is murdered that
the ramifications just go right through and it's such a difficult,
difficult thing to come to terms with and deal with
when we get back in the part two, let's talk
about the trial, the highs and the lows of the
trial because they are an emotional rollercoaster within themselves, but
(55:32):
the dramatic twist at the end that no one saw
coming and when Nana discupts options on how you might
be able to get some answers and justice to find
out what's happened to your sister. So let's take a break.
I think we all need to need a break because
of pretty heavy, heavy topic, and we'll come back and
cover those points in part two.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
Nice thanks Jim
Speaker 1 (55:54):
Cheers, then their food and told die mis
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