October 6, 2025 • 49 mins
Horse was among the most elite SAS soldiers, but it came with hidden scars. When the dog handler left the Australian army, his life spiralled. Unable to escape the trauma and chronic pain, Horse turned to drugs and alcohol. From using psychedelics in Mexico and seeking comfort in his dog Preston, Horse shares how he’s navigating stress beyond the frontline, why he doesn’t regret anything and how he’s found a lighter side of life training dogs for movies.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see a side of life. The average person is
never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now, as I take you into this world.
(00:46):
Welcome back to part two of my chat with former
SAS operative who goes by the nickname of Horse. If
you listen to part one, we spoke about horses time
in the SAS and his involvement in the Afghanistan War.
It was a pretty heavy discussion, even for this podcast.
In part two, Horse talks about his life post military.
(01:07):
If you thought he had a quiet life after he
left the SAS, you were mistaken. We talk about his
time in Africa working with anti poaching units. He's working
the Ukraine providing security for volunteer doctors close to the
front line. He's worked with law enforcement agencies here and abroad.
We also talked about the findings from the Royal Commission
(01:28):
into Defense Veteran Suicide and his own battles with PTSD.
I can't believe the things Horses done. Haven't listened to
part two of my chat with him. Horse, welcome back
to I catch killers.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Have a nice little walk with the dogs.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah, the dogs did their exercise. They seem to be
sleeping now, so they've got it out. They've had their
little rumble in the park, which it was good. Spike
needs the exercise. We left part one. We're talking about
your time in Afghanistan and your service. When you finally
decided to get out of the military. What brought that on?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
I started to get tired. I had double hit replacement
that took the wind out of the sales a bit.
You know, I was a patrol command of it. I
felt myself getting a little bit stale and and with
that impact there, I thought maybe it's time to leave
on a high note. As you don't want to be
(02:30):
one of those those old, crusty guys that are bitter
and twisted and just a dinosaur that's hanging around getting
everyone's way. Yeah, so I thought I'll leave on a
high note, and I went to the UAE doing that
contract for their Special Operations Command under Mike home Marsh
as a trainer.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
When you left, did you you feel like you've left
your tribe? Was it confronting for you? You've been such
an intense period of time in your life.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, yeah, and so that that was really Yeah, it's
quite a big day and going. I think it was
a soft landing though, because there was a lot of
guys in the UAE that I already I knew, and
so it was a similar tribe, and so what I
call a soft landing. But I think the significance of
(03:21):
it really eluded me for many years. And even when
I left left the UAE, my life sort of went
down spiral, took a downward spiral, and it was just
this imperceptible slippery slope.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
That I don't know.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
It's okay, I won't go train, I won't do that,
and then next thing, next thing you know, you're you're
sitting in the gutter.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Okay, well we'll I want to talk about that. I'm
sorry bringing it up, but we'll talk about.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
I'm okay to speak about And I think it's important
to let people know that somebody that's been at the
tip of the spear that can happen to them, so
it can happen to anyone.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I think that's an important message before we talk about
the mental well Buron and emotional well Beuron just two
hip replacements. Something that I don't think people appreciate too.
The life of a soldier, as in an infantry or
a special Forces operator, takes its toll physically on the body.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Yeah yeah, yeah, So you're doing a lot of kilometers
carrying some silly things and I have no regrets. Make
sure everyone knows that this is and I'll do it
all again. The only only regret I've got is one
of those movies. I didn't lead them enough. But joking maybe, yeah. Yeah,
(04:48):
it's quite intense. And we've had the Australian Institute of
Sport come over and have a look at us, and
so you know, you're expected to be dynamic and go
over walls carrying heavy loads. You've got to sprint and
then you've got to have calm yourself down and find
motor skills to take those shots as well as complex
(05:11):
or decision making and in complex environments. And so having
that smarts and level headedness and peak in state management plus.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Then you've got to be expected to walk.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Ten kilometers into the target and ten kilometers out under
night vision goggles over uneven ground.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I'm looking for threats all And.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
What sort of way do we carry when you're doing
this with you armor and your weapons and.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Easy thirty kilos?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah, yeah, so once you're start to get live ammo
in there, so you know, bombs and comms, fit some water,
a little bit of food, a little bit extra for him, helmets,
body armor, pistol on air, some grenades, you've med kit.
A combat load really does add up.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, and for anyone that doesn't really appreciate it, put
a thy kilo weightest. This is what you're getting around
and moving dynamic as you said, and throwing yourself on
the ground and jumping over things, and it has to
take its till.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
And you know, like there's some guys that are lucky
and everybody just sort of eats it up.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
There's others that.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Yeah, we just you just wear out, And I actually did.
I took yoga up when I was doing the wrestling.
That kind of kept that up throughout my military career,
and I think that kept me on playing kept me
on the playing field a lot longer than I normally
would have. I think my career would have finished a
bit sooner. And so that that ying and the yang,
(06:39):
that balancing sort of helped help me keep keep going.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Interesting. Okay, so what what year did you leave the military?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
End of twenty fifteen?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Okay, and you did some work over in the UAE,
and that that was a soft landing in that you've
gone from an environment you knew very well into the
environment where you knew people. And I would imagine part
of it is that your reputation was intact too. They
knew your skill level, and it's not like you went
from at the tip of the spear and the Tier
(07:13):
one Special Forces to an area where no one even
appreciated the skill set that you had. But going to
the UAE would have allowed you to still demonstrate those skills.
Am I reading it right? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
And it's a similar environment, yeah, just training different people.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, Okay, you talked about the spiral. What happened there.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, so I think I put my dog down in
my working dog. I took him over with me in
early twenty seventeen. He was just shy at fifteen, so good.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Oh boy.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
And I've got out of there, and then moved to
Europe to be closer to my daughter in Sweden, and
I wasn't getting to see you, along with a bit
of chronic pain from injuries and stuff like that and
the isolation, and then yeah, started started to smoke a
(08:06):
little bit of mess and then a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
That's not good.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
And so I was just checking out basically, and then yeah,
I ended up doing a bit of an overnighter in
jail over.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
There overseas, and that was in the early twenty twenty.
So sitting there going because I didn't how I end
up here, and then I was sort of, well, I
chose this, and so it was time to get my
life back.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Together, and so I had to leave Sweden. I was
trying to be a father to my daughter, but I
just became how was she at the time, So yeah,
she's eight, yeah, fourteen.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
So you're ticking off all the all the factors that
could come into play.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Isolated, isolated, different, different culture, and a career, injuries, injuries.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Putting the dog down.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Yeah yeah, yeah, just a spiral and you just don't
don't recognize it. I'm over there to Seva with my daughter.
I'm not getting to see her. I'm applying for jobs,
defense jobs with SAAB and everything that I just couldn't
get work, wasn't getting any replies and just gradually checked out.
(09:21):
But I was working with autistic kids, which was a highlight.
And then in between times I would pick up some
work in Africa.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
What skill set did you bring with autistic kids?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
What was that?
Speaker 1 (09:34):
How did you get involved in that?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So when you think about it, all of the training
of people that I'd done with the military and adult training,
all of the principles applied across the board to kids
and the autistic kids. And I think I brought my
experiences from my childhood and how I was treated because
(09:56):
I was a bit different and these kids are just
a bit different, and so that's that's what i' brought
with it. And also I was offering a strong male
role model, and so there was also we were just
part of a larger school. The autistic space. And so
I saw a lot of the young fellas gravitating towards
me as.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Well, because they're told that this is terrible, this.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Is a bad it's toxic masculinity, where this is just
being a man and getting out there after it. You
saw the achievements, and I think that there's nothing bad
in there. Society is telling them that they can't be that,
and I think it resonated with those young boys into
they would gravitate towards me and actually taking that step
back and watching them do dumb things.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Oh, we're being watched to go now, I keep going.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Fellows, We're going till somebody hurts themselves, because why would
you stop.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
You know, it's all fun and games, and it is what.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Brought you to that level where you're going to start
smoking some mice.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, exactly, So just checking out. It was escape, was
escaping Yep, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Was just checking out. So obviously there's a bit of
chronic paint everything and and that is all chronic stress,
and so each one of them on their ore. Okay,
so what's the analogy I use this code is you've
got a backpack and there's a rock of stress and
there's another rock of stress, and even just a couffle,
you can't carry that forever. It just keeps on grinding
(11:27):
you down. And then you put another one, another one,
another one. It just grinds you down and you don't
even realize it. And yeah, I just started checking out
and then obviously I got myself into spot of bottle.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
You're hitting a low point, low point there. How did
you reconcile with yourself that you're going to turn this
around or you didn't care or what the hell?
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Yeah, So I guess we all have our different low point,
and mine. I was probably fortunate that I still had
the capacity to come back to Australia, but that is
my low point to some others are lower than others.
And so I got a scholarship, came for the NBA
(12:11):
and came back to Australia and that was when COVID
kicked in. So came back and did the NBA. It
sort of helped straighten me out. But there's still been
a struggle ongoing for quite some time. And so you
get on it off again, on and off again, and.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
You can see it coming now, but you can identify
if you are spiraling or slipping down.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I've recently had ankle fusion, now, second one, because the
first one I stuffed up was all of a sudden
disabled and then yeah, got on it again and stuffed
the whole surgery up. Yeah hard. Yeah, yeah, I really
really need to learn it properly. And so I've had
(13:01):
the second one and see that that that incapacity was
was also a big factor. And the pain and and
what led me down the pace of psychedelics.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Okay, let's talk about that. Yeah, because you've recently tried
that over in Mexico.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Yes, so really really interesting. That puts you into this
other space. And so I went to you got to
go to Mexico. It's illegal here, it's illegal in the States.
So you went over to San Diego and the teller Jake,
they're smuggling an Australian into Mexico, taking across the border
(13:43):
and yeah, five days do a Mexican like.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
A sweat lodge.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Sweat lodge, which is extremely unpleasant. You learned to lean
into the problems, so you're not taking any medicines in that,
leaning into it and go, Okay, that that put me
into I'm always checking out. And then gratitude for what
your family did do, not what they didn't do. So
they got a couple of good things out of that.
It's not pleasant at all, and so I don't know
(14:10):
why it's illegal. It's it was not the type of thing,
but no, very unpleasant. Basically, I got confronted with just
all of that dumb stuff that I've been doing.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
And you know, whenever you're being a.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Bad person or non drugs for twenty hours, so it
just played that.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
It opens your mind up to all the traumas, all
the bad ship just coming.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Yep, and just played that over and over again. And
the thing is, we don't realize that we're functioning like
that because it's just normal to us, and we think, oh,
we're being normal. You walk into a room and people
look at your weird and.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Relate.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I can relate to it. I think I've spoken about it,
but it's I always know that I'm not quite right.
When I've been and you might be out on the
job for days or whatever. You come home and you're
totally wide. You've been making decisions as in, bang, I
need this done, I need that done, and wide like that.
Then you come home to a social environment or any environment,
(15:21):
and everyone seems to be at a different pace. And
I had enough. I worked out over the years that
they're not allowed the step, it's me out of step.
And then so that take myself away from it. And
you talked about yoga. I did meditation years ago, very
early when I got in the cops, and I didn't understand.
I was just drawn to it like a thing called chigoo,
(15:44):
drawn to it. Didn't really get the benefits from it
in the early years, but it's been a fallback position
that I can go to when I do find myself spirally,
that I can just take myself away and slow things down.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Yeah, meditations really really does help people growing up on
the streets. They're at that heightened level all the time,
the whole time, the whole time, and especially trauma traumatized
as children, and so you're functioning like that, reacting. You're
not you're not playing things out like sorting things out
(16:18):
in your brain. You're just they're just a dog eat
dog kind of mentality. And then then that just gets
a flow on and that's how they live. And so
this will allow for recidivism or anybody. So you don't
have to be a proper or any first responders or courses.
He's got application for kids that have had traumatic childhoods
(16:39):
and or even anybody that's suffered from violence, will help
them lower that and give them a bit more space
to take stock of their their life, will make better
decisions on the spot.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Playing in fear, well, I think anyone listening to the
podcast and we'll have a look at it and get
get it out there. But the chaos you for the
cause if you didn't get yourself.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
So, yeah, well I was going to die, There's no
two ways about it. And so that was where it's
going to end.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
And so misadventure or die by your own.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
And well I didn't have any suicidal ideation really, but
you know, miss misadventure or just shorten your life significantly
and just done stuff. And then you know, and I
guess you know, even if you're just living in that
that space that yourself is killing yourself, you know, because
you have a look at what I have achieved and
then what I was becoming. That's that's a death metaphorically speaking.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
I guess, yeah, I understand what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
And I'm feeling better every day, still improving, improving, and
so I'm going to start to say no to things.
So opportunities like this, there's other opportunities also presenting themselves
that things are just really happening for me.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Now, I think that is part of self preservation too.
You've got to say no to some things because sometimes
you can dig yourself into a hole by keeping yourself
too busy and you don't work on yourself. That's something
to be mindful of, can we. It sort of leads
well into the Royal Commission in the Defense and veteran suicide. Yeah,
(18:25):
what we're talking about talking about here. That was a
Royal commission that ran over the last couple of years,
and I think on the back of that Royal Commission
there was one hundred and two recommend one hundred and
twenty two recommendations that came out. I know you've had
a look at that and you're curious about it. What's
(18:45):
your takeaway from what we learned from the Royal Commission.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
I think there's no surprises there, and there's a lot
of people in defense have experienced all of this to
one degree or another. What led me down that passway
was the film. All the issues that we raise pretty
much encapsulates all of your findings, and I think there's
(19:10):
with the film, we could really capitalize on that and
bring it to the fort. And that's I guess that's
how we became connected as well, because I started chatting
to Simon who knows you, and there's this correlation here
with everything and with my issues as well. I'm one
of the lucky ones because I'm still alive and coming
out the other side.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
We've got a lot of people who who got.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
One made who's killed himself as a result of the
investigations and has put through the ring and he've been
and a flat's.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Been out to sea and never recovered.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
And so how many are there and living even if
they're not killing themselves, they just living a lesser life
than they could.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, and it's sad to see someone that's been living
a good life and all of a sudden just let
it destroy themsel.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
And so with that, I was sort of looking, Okay,
what came We can be done and I don't have
any answers.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, you go through basic training, they break you down,
then teach you to be a soldier, and then when
you leave the military, they don't invest as much time
making you be a civilian like as in leaving. I
think is there a space there to make the transition easier.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I think that was one of the recommendations, is that
third party and the independent body to monitor that, because
it's I think they're just ticking boxes on the transition. So,
as you said before, I've got a private pilot's license,
which I did while I was in the military and
I was investigating, Well how about help me get a
(20:47):
professional pilot's license, and then I got a career. I've
already got the runs on the board, so to speak.
To Shan an interest, but there was there was nothing,
no interest in that. So that transition is really just
box ticking, and I found it more frustrating than beneficial.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, well, the transition, I think so much more could
be done because, yeah, the saying in the police is
nothing more excellent than accent, and you feel it you've
left your tribe. Yeah, that's the people that you could
relate to, the people that respected you, and you're left.
And the same with the military. But for all the
(21:26):
building up to make you a useful soldier or a
useful cop, and then at the end of it, it's
just see you and march out. And that's the end
of you're policing or army crew.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
And it's a unique of factors of the service which
you've identified. You leave all yourself at the door, and
then you just totally invest yourself in the old army recruiting.
It's more than just a job. It's a life and
it is and we see in the film the families
are all part of that, and you're just that's your
(21:59):
whole network, in your whole group. And then to be
taken out of that, well, we know from we evolved
from hunter gatherer tribes and so when you're kicked out
of the tribe or removed from the tribe, that's a
death sentence. And so that really needs to be nurtured
and managed a lot better than what we are doing.
And we know the effects of all of that, and
(22:22):
we've seen it time and time again, and you've got
all the findings of the Royal Commission.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
It's okay, so what yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Well it's about doing stuff and leadership. I know people
would say you spent so long in homicide, how did
you survive? And it wasn't going to the homicides that
caused me drama. It wasn't the horrific scenes or chasing
the crooks. It was leadership that caused me more frustration
than anything in the place. And I get the sense
(22:52):
speaking and speaking to military guys, there's a lot of similarities.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
There, one hundred percent. And it's that administrative violence. I
think you've see term that you coined and we've all
experienced it, and we see different interpretation of the rules
and just using it against people that basically the hierarchy
are responsible. And once again, you get into the defense
force and then you have this trust in the system
(23:21):
and you hand over all responsibility to the hierarchy for
your destiny a lot of the time and they have
a really unique responsibility. Or there's that duty of care,
and that duty of care is not being exercised by them.
We see with our case, with your case, you just oh,
(23:45):
you get thrown under the bus and then sat off
to the side and isolated and they don't give a shit.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Well, I suppose, like with my case, I'm getting judged
on how I investigated the ducts and the suspected murder
of a three year old child that we still haven't found. Yeah,
what what do people want me to do when I'm
investigating that just walk up to people and say hey,
have you done this and they say no and move
(24:13):
on like That's what frustrated me. Everything that I did
in the investigation support the support of the above, but
when it blows up and there's some complaints or allegations,
that's everyone just distanced themselves. And I thought leadership was
about you know, I led in the in the police,
and I'd like to think that I tried to be
(24:35):
the best leader I could. But I would look out
for people under my command.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Those you're responsible for, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
And I would accept if they're mistakes. I would often
say to people, but yeah, if you if you make
a genuine mistake, I'm going to support you one hundred percent.
Do it out of laziness and the support's not going
to be there. And that was the way I worked by.
But leadership in the army seemed to be lacking. And
what you guys went through with the allegations of special forces,
(25:06):
I would have thought there would be more people standing
up support thing you within the military.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
You know, once again, we had amazing leaders within now too.
Burns he's one of them. He's in the in our
film mass On Weeks. You are amazing leaders they seem
to get marginalized and then they end up just having
enough and leaving as well. And so yeah, you would
think that the leadership have got this special forces unit
(25:35):
that is doing amazing things and as I said, we're
winning every fight and giving them every chance of success,
that you would want to ride the coattails of that
instead of extinguishing it. I guess there's some sort of
narcissistic stuff going on there which you would have experienced,
and just poor examples of leadership. And so when there
(26:01):
is rumors of something going wrong and they just kick
you to the curb and actually put a blanket allegation
perception on everybody.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
And.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
It doesn't really make sense because at the end of
the day, they are responsible for everything that goes on
under their command, so to pick and choose, you don't
get that choice. So when I was patrol commander, everything
good that happened within the patrol was well under patrol,
and anything bad it was like, well that's on me.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yeah, that's that's leadership. I get the sense, and this
is me looking from the outside, no internal knowledge, but
I get the sense from what you guys went through.
If there were no allegations or nothing blew up the
very people with are now distancing self themselves from you.
Would have been standing there beside you, all proud and
(26:54):
giving themselves pats on the back and look what we did.
But because there was alligation, they distance themselves and yeah,
if they are leaders, they know what's going on underneath.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Well they they were happy to take themselves medals for
everything that have it there.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I think there was a parliamentary inquiry into it all
question times in Parliament and there was a politician I
think it was David Chewbridge that asked the question of yeah,
senior military figure, well you've got the medals for their deployment.
(27:32):
Should you give the metal medals back? And no, are
you responsible for what's happened over there? No, I wasn't.
I wasn't responsible because I didn't have control. Or therefore
why are you wearing the medals? And yeah, that's not
the verbatim, but that was the gist of the line
line of question.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
That makes sense and it really encapsulates everything you've been
talking about. Yeah, I'll take I'll take the good times
and then the bad times are not more responsive distances.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
We jump past the wildlife protection over in Africa. Tell
us about that.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
So I'm working with a company called Malavora Systems.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
It's a veteran run organization. He's extra strain and military
as well. He lives over there, and what we do
is mentor local wildlife arrangers and so we'll go over
there and run training for them, and I run a
lot of mission planning, appreciation and so recently I was
(28:40):
in South Sudan and so in seven weeks I had
them from give them a warning order. Okay, this is
what we got out on the ground. These are the issues,
and then they would do an appreciation process, course of action, development,
brief me back, choose a course of action that's appropriate.
They go and right the orders to for the orders
(29:00):
and run a.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Mission okay, and like poaching, this is tell us about
the environment because this is hardcore.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
So it's some of the most special force of stuff
we've done because you're you're out there living in the
park with these guys running. Essentially it's a it's almost
a paramilitary unit against these guys who are out there
poaching bush meat obviously rhinos and elephant horns to get
(29:31):
get money back. So some of them are just doing
it for survival. But obviously you've got the international factors
coming in and paying them big money, and so of
course when you're subsistence, you're going to go for it.
So there is that humanitarian issue that you've got. I
can't blame these guys. We've still got to break the
(29:52):
back on.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
This violent environment.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Yeah, it is definitely violent environment. So you have everybody
is carrying guns, which which I'm quite comfortable with. Going
out there and being able to de escalate the situation
is some of the most rewarding times I've had.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
You got an example.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Well, yeah, so even like just recently, we've got warring
tribes within South Sudan and everybody's scared of these they
called Muralley and they've got a really bad reputation or
they live off the land and they just carry guns
as much guns an ammo as they can. They're in
the neighborhood and actually in our park near the headquarters,
(30:34):
and we get the guns out, everybody get up ready
for to defend. Hang on a second, let's let's go
and chat to them. So one of the young one
of the locals that we had working for us, I
put our guns down and went out, went their hands up.
They're all pointing guns at us. It's not exactly comfortable,
(30:56):
and you sort of think of those safety seers aren't
really affective on old bit of kit, and that that
itchy trigger is actually if the fingers on on the trigger.
But you know, their leader had his gun slung, and
so we were able to have that conversation, you know
who we are, you know who you are, You're welcome here.
There's come and take water, there be no fighting on
(31:19):
our lands, and you know, we're able to have that
conversation and everything just de escalated, and they were really
happy with it because they're all used to just shooting
first and asked questions later. It's like gang bangers basically,
and so having been able to just actually do that
was so rewarding. And then that's the first step getting
(31:42):
a bit of a flow on and established and that
credibility for you being in our area where you know,
they live off the land, and now we're telling them
no hunting here, so we've got to have a bit
of give back. And then we ended up doing some
medical clinics in the villages and engaging locals and actually
(32:02):
got to built repair some wells which then some of
the ng O people who were responsible for all that got.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Pissed off at me because that.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Was their job and I'm out en gring the ng O.
So that's that perception, what do we need them here?
Were spending too much money and.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
They're referring to you like merks basically coming in.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, that was how they saw us.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Then we started, I was using my guys of the
rangers for these tasks and work because we teach them
first aid and so we're engaging with the communities and
providing first aid and a little bit of protection to them,
and so we're getting the locals on board. So that
that was some of the most rewarding things I've done.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Would for many years.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
I would imagine it would be rewarding, like it's worthwhile
service in a war zone, like when you're deployed to
Afghanistan and you're doing you know, you're doing the work
ars of you by the government. I would imagine going
from that environment and then doing something like wildlife because
it's basically about wildlife protection, but you've opened it up
(33:07):
even more if you're helping villages and a little bit
of medical and water systems and different things. That must
give you a real balance out. You said mentioned the
ying and Yang wars. People are going to die and war.
That's a business of war. But doing something like that,
did you find that was good for yourself?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Well, when I come back from doing that people, I'm like,
I am, Now it's just wholesome and that's maybe that's
where I belong to doing that stuff. And so yeah,
you feel good and being able to So I've got
the martial skills to back it up because I've been
downrange and seen war. We don't want that and having
(33:48):
those marcial skills to back it up. And I guess
once again we're selected on intelligence and our problem solving
skills and our ability to engage with people from around
the world. Being able to do that and actually assess, Okay,
what's the issue here and what do we need to
do to solve it. We don't always resort to those
(34:10):
war or guns. You know, we don't just have a hammer.
We've got many tools in our toolbox.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Because people see, like you said, the martial skills that
allows you to do the work that you do. People
see a's an neither or you're a soldier or something
that NGO doing some good for communities, but quite often
the martial skills allow you to do the work, the
other work that you're doing.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Yeah, I think that's the true being a true warrior
is having that capacity, is that the meat will inherit
the earth. We're not talking about being meek, and the
meek are the ones that leave their shorts, their sword
in the scabbard, and go and work out other ways
to move forward into the future. So if you start
(34:58):
pulling that sword out every time, nobody evolves, nobody goes anywhere.
And so I find it much more rewarding when you
don't have to pull that trigger.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
What's the attributes that I see it? Just in conversation
with you, I can see where you're coming from. But
what's the attributes that you think make a good Special
Forces soldier? Are someone capable of fitting into the sas?
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Emotional intelligence is number one?
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Okay, Now, no one, no one would have no one
would have guessed. I guess that. But I understand what
you're saying.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yeah, understanding who you are, and that empathy is a
big one too. You're going into you know, you're offshore,
and even on shore, there's problems if you have an
empathy as you said, you understand the position of some
of the crooks and crims, you're like far out and
you're going to approach that problem in a different way.
And so once you start to understand the other people
(35:56):
who you're dealing with, said, you've got a much better
chance of working to towards a solution or resolution as
opposed to just right, we're going to hit force with force,
and we learn that in jiu jitsu, and it's much
better to do a flanker than up regards with lots
of smoke.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, well, emotional intelligence and that's the type of thing
that they're looking for with people that get to that level.
And I would imagine warfare. It's a changing world in warfare,
isn't it. It scares me the capability of drones and
everything that's going on there. You still see a role
(36:35):
for Special Forces soldiers in the future.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
I still think you need boots on the ground at
the end of the day's but the drone spaces is
really interesting. One drones these days will take out an
SF team. It's no competition really with all of the
the optics and capabilities they've got. You know, a lot
of the times the teams can't even reach out, and
(37:00):
you've it's got one. Even at the tactical level, you've
got all those small drones, you know, half a dozen
of ten.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I've seen footage of a drone chasing someone to take
them out, Like.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Yeah, your standard little dji, it's got that that capability
to follow a person to do selfie see you know.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Then you put a bomb in that thing.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
And it's pretty simple technology by today's standards, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah, anybody that's gone clay shooting, you've got a shotgun.
It's hard to hit a clay target. And then there's
things going to maneuver and chase hits, and then and
then you have multiple of them.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
It's and it might change a potentially power base to
like that's not the biggest army anymore, like the.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
There's a couple of things on that. So now you're
going to fight wars with drones. So it's it's much
more palatable to fight a war because we're not losing anybody.
So that there is that one issue. And also we'll
back in traditionally, the bigger population, the bigger your army,
(38:13):
and so the bigger your army, better chance you've got
a winning. Well, now this technology is coming into into
the whole space, then you've got well, now maybe Singapore
who's got technology, technology is a potential for all we're power.
You know, it's she's going to change that dynamic on
(38:34):
the battle's face. At the end of the day, you
still have to have roots on the ground to occupy
and manage things. And so I think Special Forces certainly
does have a role. We've just got to evolve that
role and it you know, it's always it should always
be evolving. And what we see I see Special Forces
as the R and D department for the regular army.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Yeah, well that that's part of the makeup of s
A is that continued to evolve to fit into whatever
environment they might need and need to fight in.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yeah, well, I guess.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
And also preparing for a black swan because you just
don't know who. You didn't see nine to eleven coming.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Yeah, well that's yeah, that change the change of the landscape.
When you were in the army at that time, when
when that happened, did you realize your life was going
to change so dramatically?
Speaker 3 (39:27):
Yeah, hich thought, Okay, jobs on. Actually ironically I was
in these team or at the time, and I was
on actually guard duty on the on the front gate
of the little base at Bobinaro.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
So I guess joke that it happened on my watch,
too good one.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Now we know who the because I came off off
the guard duty and looking at the screen and the lunchroom.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
What's that? What's going on there?
Speaker 3 (39:57):
The planes flying into a building. So yeah, that changed
the world for it.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
That changed the mentality of everyone in the army at
that Now the training became very real.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
It certainly made it real. So we team or kind
of made it real. But then then okay, this is
next level now now it's yeah, and then obviously Iraq
and in Afghanistan, this this is something real. And you
know some of the guys captured it in bravery and
betrayal the actually it was one of the sons Kegan.
(40:31):
Is the feeling sending dad off to East team or
was different to sending dad off to Afghanistan? Yeah, and
so it made it a bit more real real, Yeah,
and yeah, significant increase in the.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Threat you you have relatively recent also been across to
the Ukraine. Security for doctors getting into hospitals near the
front line. Again, that's the way I say that's balancing
out or not balancing, but it's a real yin yang thing.
You're helping people and getting medical support into a war zone.
(41:04):
How was that?
Speaker 3 (41:04):
That was an experience that was really interesting because I
was not armed, and actually it's quite safe. I think
within Ukraine, if I was getting around armed, I might
have got myself into more trouble than not being armed.
And you know that recognizing that's important. Coming from the
across the Polish border, having a look at all of
(41:27):
the eighty second airborne high Mars pointed eastward and all
the hardware going on over there was interesting. But then
going forward to I think we're in fifteen kilometers of
the front line now. These hospitals that I was escorting
surgeons who have been functioning like that since twenty fourteen,
(41:48):
when the the Next People's Republic, the Hunts People's Republic,
and Crimea all had referendums to leave Ukraine because there's
a lot of corruption now, and I think it's to
be expected because they've only had sovereignty since nineteen ninety one,
and so there's going to be that power struggle, and
(42:10):
I see that throughout Africa when the colonial powers pull out,
there's this power vacuum, and well what do we do
with this?
Speaker 2 (42:18):
And so they're all just power buying.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
Power corrupts and so you know, when you've got a
government that doesn't hand out money to the regions and
you're Australia did that with New Guinea too. We just
pulled out and virtue signaled to the world, hey we've
given it to give it to a bit. There's if
you slowly withdraw and enable the locals and build them up,
(42:44):
then it's a nice way to do it instead of
just pulling out and going look at us, aren't we awesome?
Speaker 1 (42:49):
You acknowledge as a soldier, you sign up and yeah, yep, military,
you can be ordered. This is how we're going to
use you for whatever reason. That might be something you
personally don't agree with, but you accept. That's part of
signing up up for the military is that that correct.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
And so once again it's that unique factors of service
you give you.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Join the army in.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Life and if you do have a big issue with it,
then you get.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Out reflections of your time in service in Afghanistan and
the time in the military. Do you look back at
it with pride?
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Yeah, you know, some of the fondest times in my life,
I often wish that I could do it again.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah, we all want that all. So I'd like to
start again and do it all again.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
Yeah my brain thinks I on twenty one, but my
body thinks I'm an idiot.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Just listen, listen to your brain. Don't worry about it.
You'll be fine.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
But yeah, you do. You do look back at it,
and you've paid the price emotionally, physically and everything that
you've been through it. But you look back at your
service pride.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, it's great pride. And I'm glad that
I'm really glad that I've got the opportunity. And I
do promote the idea of anybody else that's considering getting
into the defense force to go for it. And again,
I achieved amazing things in there, and it set me
(44:22):
up well, and I've got some lifetime friends forged in
fire and and yeah, they were great times, and I'm
thankful that I got that opportunity. And so so I
say this, there's no greater calling than to be of
service as long as people serve, not take interesting. So
(44:44):
when you are joining up going with the eyes white aprons.
Once again, we saw what they did to the Vietnam
vets still joined up and so what they're doing to
us and let that put you off, but go in
with the eyes white open.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
And now here we are with the film.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
So I'm hoping that that will raise the awareness in
Australian public so that we can take steps to ensure
that it doesn't happen to the next generation.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
And what And part of the motive I understand that
for the film is to make sure your story, as
in collectively everyone that was involved in this story that
comes across you would hope that these allegations about war
crimes and resolved sooner rather than later, because people's lives
are on hold.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Yeah yeah, so and that was when we recently did
a screening at Parliament House and it's one of our
big things is Okay, this has been going on for
ten years now. I'm not a lawyer or been involved
in policing. I'm pretty sure that these things shouldn't go
get dragged on that long and if there's anything there,
(45:49):
it should be finalized, charges, put up or shut up.
We've got ex military people from the UK that.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
The Island conflict.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
They've got allegations hanging over their head. And I think
the guy just died recently for fifty years, he died
with those allegations, So you know, I imagine living with that,
and so that's got to shorten your life and the
impact that has not only on the person that's under charges,
to flow on effect the family. So I think one
of the findings on the Royal Commission into Suicide is
(46:26):
anybody that comes into contact with the justice system, it
does have a psychological impact. And the longer you are
in contact with that under investigation, the greater the effect.
And so then we're talking about suicide algy and not
only that trauma that you're passing on to your family
(46:49):
and then the community. And we've got not only that,
and you've got kids coming home from school being teased
that the dad's a war criminal as well.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yeah, it's far reaching, isn't it. And I sit here
and say, I hope they get it resolved sooner than later,
because I think it's just a living hell and nightmare
that these people are going through. And yeah, it's you guys,
shit happens. I know who I want going to defending
our country. It's gather you blokes. Together, defending, defending the country,
(47:22):
and yeah, I think we've got to accept that it's
an environment that unless you've been there, you don't understand
what goes on.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Yeah, it's quite complex, you know.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
So I have been to Ukraine and so I have
an opinion on that, and people ask me about Guarzian.
I haven't been there, so I don't have an opinion.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
All right, well we might wrap it up. I just
to see Bravery and Betrayal the documentary. I know it's
still touring around the country if people are interested in
seeing it, and I thoroughly recommend it and certainly expanding
on what we've talked about here and some really interesting
and heavy emotional stuff that comes out in the documentary.
(48:03):
How can people find out where they can serve it?
Speaker 3 (48:06):
So get onto the Wandering Warriors website. Now there are
another veteran or support organization who have involved with education.
I guess we need to say that the film was
actually done on donations from the Australian public, So thank
you to all those people and managed by Wandering Warriors,
(48:26):
so big shout out to them as well. So Wandering
Warriors and the Burrow of in Betrayal two or two
point zero back by popular demand. You see all the
tour dates and locations working way south all the way
through to Tasmania and Adelaide in early November, and a
lot of regional centers in between.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Excellent. All right, before I wrap it up, you reckon
Spike's God, that's what it takes to get through the
selection course in the essays.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
These dogs have.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Sorry, Spike, will get your gig somewhere else. Thank you
so much for coming on the day. And yeah, total
respect for the services you've given to the country and
talking about the things that you're talking about. Total respect
from my end, mate, and I hope all the best
for the future and what you're doing. You should be
proud of yourself.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
Likewise, think you total respect for you and your your
history as well. Did a little bit of research O
got here and yeah, I was pretty much ignorant of
who you were.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
And then my headlines you.
Speaker 3 (49:35):
Know, I'm fami with the media reading between the lines here. Yeah,
thank you for what you've been doing while we've been here,
while we've been doing it overseas, so it takes all of.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Us and so thank you. Good stuff.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Thanks
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see a side of life. The average person is
never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now, as I take you into this world.
(00:46):
Welcome back to part two of my chat with former
SAS operative who goes by the nickname of Horse. If
you listen to part one, we spoke about horses time
in the SAS and his involvement in the Afghanistan War.
It was a pretty heavy discussion, even for this podcast.
In part two, Horse talks about his life post military.
(01:07):
If you thought he had a quiet life after he
left the SAS, you were mistaken. We talk about his
time in Africa working with anti poaching units. He's working
the Ukraine providing security for volunteer doctors close to the
front line. He's worked with law enforcement agencies here and abroad.
We also talked about the findings from the Royal Commission
(01:28):
into Defense Veteran Suicide and his own battles with PTSD.
I can't believe the things Horses done. Haven't listened to
part two of my chat with him. Horse, welcome back
to I catch killers.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Have a nice little walk with the dogs.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah, the dogs did their exercise. They seem to be
sleeping now, so they've got it out. They've had their
little rumble in the park, which it was good. Spike
needs the exercise. We left part one. We're talking about
your time in Afghanistan and your service. When you finally
decided to get out of the military. What brought that on?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
I started to get tired. I had double hit replacement
that took the wind out of the sales a bit.
You know, I was a patrol command of it. I
felt myself getting a little bit stale and and with
that impact there, I thought maybe it's time to leave
on a high note. As you don't want to be
(02:30):
one of those those old, crusty guys that are bitter
and twisted and just a dinosaur that's hanging around getting
everyone's way. Yeah, so I thought I'll leave on a
high note, and I went to the UAE doing that
contract for their Special Operations Command under Mike home Marsh
as a trainer.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
When you left, did you you feel like you've left
your tribe? Was it confronting for you? You've been such
an intense period of time in your life.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, yeah, and so that that was really Yeah, it's
quite a big day and going. I think it was
a soft landing though, because there was a lot of
guys in the UAE that I already I knew, and
so it was a similar tribe, and so what I
call a soft landing. But I think the significance of
(03:21):
it really eluded me for many years. And even when
I left left the UAE, my life sort of went
down spiral, took a downward spiral, and it was just
this imperceptible slippery slope.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
That I don't know.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
It's okay, I won't go train, I won't do that,
and then next thing, next thing you know, you're you're
sitting in the gutter.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Okay, well we'll I want to talk about that. I'm
sorry bringing it up, but we'll talk about.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
I'm okay to speak about And I think it's important
to let people know that somebody that's been at the
tip of the spear that can happen to them, so
it can happen to anyone.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I think that's an important message before we talk about
the mental well Buron and emotional well Beuron just two
hip replacements. Something that I don't think people appreciate too.
The life of a soldier, as in an infantry or
a special Forces operator, takes its toll physically on the body.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Yeah yeah, yeah, So you're doing a lot of kilometers
carrying some silly things and I have no regrets. Make
sure everyone knows that this is and I'll do it
all again. The only only regret I've got is one
of those movies. I didn't lead them enough. But joking maybe, yeah. Yeah,
(04:48):
it's quite intense. And we've had the Australian Institute of
Sport come over and have a look at us, and
so you know, you're expected to be dynamic and go
over walls carrying heavy loads. You've got to sprint and
then you've got to have calm yourself down and find
motor skills to take those shots as well as complex
(05:11):
or decision making and in complex environments. And so having
that smarts and level headedness and peak in state management plus.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Then you've got to be expected to walk.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Ten kilometers into the target and ten kilometers out under
night vision goggles over uneven ground.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I'm looking for threats all And.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
What sort of way do we carry when you're doing
this with you armor and your weapons and.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Easy thirty kilos?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah, yeah, so once you're start to get live ammo
in there, so you know, bombs and comms, fit some water,
a little bit of food, a little bit extra for him, helmets,
body armor, pistol on air, some grenades, you've med kit.
A combat load really does add up.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, and for anyone that doesn't really appreciate it, put
a thy kilo weightest. This is what you're getting around
and moving dynamic as you said, and throwing yourself on
the ground and jumping over things, and it has to
take its till.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
And you know, like there's some guys that are lucky
and everybody just sort of eats it up.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
There's others that.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Yeah, we just you just wear out, And I actually did.
I took yoga up when I was doing the wrestling.
That kind of kept that up throughout my military career,
and I think that kept me on playing kept me
on the playing field a lot longer than I normally
would have. I think my career would have finished a
bit sooner. And so that that ying and the yang,
(06:39):
that balancing sort of helped help me keep keep going.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Interesting. Okay, so what what year did you leave the military?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
End of twenty fifteen?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Okay, and you did some work over in the UAE,
and that that was a soft landing in that you've
gone from an environment you knew very well into the
environment where you knew people. And I would imagine part
of it is that your reputation was intact too. They
knew your skill level, and it's not like you went
from at the tip of the spear and the Tier
(07:13):
one Special Forces to an area where no one even
appreciated the skill set that you had. But going to
the UAE would have allowed you to still demonstrate those skills.
Am I reading it right? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
And it's a similar environment, yeah, just training different people.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, Okay, you talked about the spiral. What happened there.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, so I think I put my dog down in
my working dog. I took him over with me in
early twenty seventeen. He was just shy at fifteen, so good.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Oh boy.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
And I've got out of there, and then moved to
Europe to be closer to my daughter in Sweden, and
I wasn't getting to see you, along with a bit
of chronic pain from injuries and stuff like that and
the isolation, and then yeah, started started to smoke a
(08:06):
little bit of mess and then a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
That's not good.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
And so I was just checking out basically, and then yeah,
I ended up doing a bit of an overnighter in
jail over.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
There overseas, and that was in the early twenty twenty.
So sitting there going because I didn't how I end
up here, and then I was sort of, well, I
chose this, and so it was time to get my
life back.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Together, and so I had to leave Sweden. I was
trying to be a father to my daughter, but I
just became how was she at the time, So yeah,
she's eight, yeah, fourteen.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
So you're ticking off all the all the factors that
could come into play.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Isolated, isolated, different, different culture, and a career, injuries, injuries.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Putting the dog down.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Yeah yeah, yeah, just a spiral and you just don't
don't recognize it. I'm over there to Seva with my daughter.
I'm not getting to see her. I'm applying for jobs,
defense jobs with SAAB and everything that I just couldn't
get work, wasn't getting any replies and just gradually checked out.
(09:21):
But I was working with autistic kids, which was a highlight.
And then in between times I would pick up some
work in Africa.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
What skill set did you bring with autistic kids?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
What was that?
Speaker 1 (09:34):
How did you get involved in that?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So when you think about it, all of the training
of people that I'd done with the military and adult training,
all of the principles applied across the board to kids
and the autistic kids. And I think I brought my
experiences from my childhood and how I was treated because
(09:56):
I was a bit different and these kids are just
a bit different, and so that's that's what i' brought
with it. And also I was offering a strong male
role model, and so there was also we were just
part of a larger school. The autistic space. And so
I saw a lot of the young fellas gravitating towards
me as.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Well, because they're told that this is terrible, this.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Is a bad it's toxic masculinity, where this is just
being a man and getting out there after it. You
saw the achievements, and I think that there's nothing bad
in there. Society is telling them that they can't be that,
and I think it resonated with those young boys into
they would gravitate towards me and actually taking that step
back and watching them do dumb things.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Oh, we're being watched to go now, I keep going.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Fellows, We're going till somebody hurts themselves, because why would
you stop.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
You know, it's all fun and games, and it is what.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Brought you to that level where you're going to start
smoking some mice.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, exactly, So just checking out. It was escape, was
escaping Yep, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Was just checking out. So obviously there's a bit of
chronic paint everything and and that is all chronic stress,
and so each one of them on their ore. Okay,
so what's the analogy I use this code is you've
got a backpack and there's a rock of stress and
there's another rock of stress, and even just a couffle,
you can't carry that forever. It just keeps on grinding
(11:27):
you down. And then you put another one, another one,
another one. It just grinds you down and you don't
even realize it. And yeah, I just started checking out
and then obviously I got myself into spot of bottle.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
You're hitting a low point, low point there. How did
you reconcile with yourself that you're going to turn this
around or you didn't care or what the hell?
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Yeah, So I guess we all have our different low point,
and mine. I was probably fortunate that I still had
the capacity to come back to Australia, but that is
my low point to some others are lower than others.
And so I got a scholarship, came for the NBA
(12:11):
and came back to Australia and that was when COVID
kicked in. So came back and did the NBA. It
sort of helped straighten me out. But there's still been
a struggle ongoing for quite some time. And so you
get on it off again, on and off again, and.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
You can see it coming now, but you can identify
if you are spiraling or slipping down.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I've recently had ankle fusion, now, second one, because the
first one I stuffed up was all of a sudden
disabled and then yeah, got on it again and stuffed
the whole surgery up. Yeah hard. Yeah, yeah, I really
really need to learn it properly. And so I've had
(13:01):
the second one and see that that that incapacity was
was also a big factor. And the pain and and
what led me down the pace of psychedelics.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Okay, let's talk about that. Yeah, because you've recently tried
that over in Mexico.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Yes, so really really interesting. That puts you into this
other space. And so I went to you got to
go to Mexico. It's illegal here, it's illegal in the States.
So you went over to San Diego and the teller Jake,
they're smuggling an Australian into Mexico, taking across the border
(13:43):
and yeah, five days do a Mexican like.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
A sweat lodge.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Sweat lodge, which is extremely unpleasant. You learned to lean
into the problems, so you're not taking any medicines in that,
leaning into it and go, Okay, that that put me
into I'm always checking out. And then gratitude for what
your family did do, not what they didn't do. So
they got a couple of good things out of that.
It's not pleasant at all, and so I don't know
(14:10):
why it's illegal. It's it was not the type of thing,
but no, very unpleasant. Basically, I got confronted with just
all of that dumb stuff that I've been doing.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
And you know, whenever you're being a.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Bad person or non drugs for twenty hours, so it
just played that.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
It opens your mind up to all the traumas, all
the bad ship just coming.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Yep, and just played that over and over again. And
the thing is, we don't realize that we're functioning like
that because it's just normal to us, and we think, oh,
we're being normal. You walk into a room and people
look at your weird and.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Relate.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I can relate to it. I think I've spoken about it,
but it's I always know that I'm not quite right.
When I've been and you might be out on the
job for days or whatever. You come home and you're
totally wide. You've been making decisions as in, bang, I
need this done, I need that done, and wide like that.
Then you come home to a social environment or any environment,
(15:21):
and everyone seems to be at a different pace. And
I had enough. I worked out over the years that
they're not allowed the step, it's me out of step.
And then so that take myself away from it. And
you talked about yoga. I did meditation years ago, very
early when I got in the cops, and I didn't understand.
I was just drawn to it like a thing called chigoo,
(15:44):
drawn to it. Didn't really get the benefits from it
in the early years, but it's been a fallback position
that I can go to when I do find myself spirally,
that I can just take myself away and slow things down.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Yeah, meditations really really does help people growing up on
the streets. They're at that heightened level all the time,
the whole time, the whole time, and especially trauma traumatized
as children, and so you're functioning like that, reacting. You're
not you're not playing things out like sorting things out
(16:18):
in your brain. You're just they're just a dog eat
dog kind of mentality. And then then that just gets
a flow on and that's how they live. And so
this will allow for recidivism or anybody. So you don't
have to be a proper or any first responders or courses.
He's got application for kids that have had traumatic childhoods
(16:39):
and or even anybody that's suffered from violence, will help
them lower that and give them a bit more space
to take stock of their their life, will make better
decisions on the spot.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Playing in fear, well, I think anyone listening to the
podcast and we'll have a look at it and get
get it out there. But the chaos you for the
cause if you didn't get yourself.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
So, yeah, well I was going to die, There's no
two ways about it. And so that was where it's
going to end.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
And so misadventure or die by your own.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
And well I didn't have any suicidal ideation really, but
you know, miss misadventure or just shorten your life significantly
and just done stuff. And then you know, and I
guess you know, even if you're just living in that
that space that yourself is killing yourself, you know, because
you have a look at what I have achieved and
then what I was becoming. That's that's a death metaphorically speaking.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
I guess, yeah, I understand what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
And I'm feeling better every day, still improving, improving, and
so I'm going to start to say no to things.
So opportunities like this, there's other opportunities also presenting themselves
that things are just really happening for me.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Now, I think that is part of self preservation too.
You've got to say no to some things because sometimes
you can dig yourself into a hole by keeping yourself
too busy and you don't work on yourself. That's something
to be mindful of, can we. It sort of leads
well into the Royal Commission in the Defense and veteran suicide. Yeah,
(18:25):
what we're talking about talking about here. That was a
Royal commission that ran over the last couple of years,
and I think on the back of that Royal Commission
there was one hundred and two recommend one hundred and
twenty two recommendations that came out. I know you've had
a look at that and you're curious about it. What's
(18:45):
your takeaway from what we learned from the Royal Commission.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
I think there's no surprises there, and there's a lot
of people in defense have experienced all of this to
one degree or another. What led me down that passway
was the film. All the issues that we raise pretty
much encapsulates all of your findings, and I think there's
(19:10):
with the film, we could really capitalize on that and
bring it to the fort. And that's I guess that's
how we became connected as well, because I started chatting
to Simon who knows you, and there's this correlation here
with everything and with my issues as well. I'm one
of the lucky ones because I'm still alive and coming
out the other side.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
We've got a lot of people who who got.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
One made who's killed himself as a result of the
investigations and has put through the ring and he've been
and a flat's.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Been out to sea and never recovered.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
And so how many are there and living even if
they're not killing themselves, they just living a lesser life
than they could.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, and it's sad to see someone that's been living
a good life and all of a sudden just let
it destroy themsel.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
And so with that, I was sort of looking, Okay,
what came We can be done and I don't have
any answers.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, you go through basic training, they break you down,
then teach you to be a soldier, and then when
you leave the military, they don't invest as much time
making you be a civilian like as in leaving. I
think is there a space there to make the transition easier.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I think that was one of the recommendations, is that
third party and the independent body to monitor that, because
it's I think they're just ticking boxes on the transition. So,
as you said before, I've got a private pilot's license,
which I did while I was in the military and
I was investigating, Well how about help me get a
(20:47):
professional pilot's license, and then I got a career. I've
already got the runs on the board, so to speak.
To Shan an interest, but there was there was nothing,
no interest in that. So that transition is really just
box ticking, and I found it more frustrating than beneficial.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, well, the transition, I think so much more could
be done because, yeah, the saying in the police is
nothing more excellent than accent, and you feel it you've
left your tribe. Yeah, that's the people that you could
relate to, the people that respected you, and you're left.
And the same with the military. But for all the
(21:26):
building up to make you a useful soldier or a
useful cop, and then at the end of it, it's
just see you and march out. And that's the end
of you're policing or army crew.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
And it's a unique of factors of the service which
you've identified. You leave all yourself at the door, and
then you just totally invest yourself in the old army recruiting.
It's more than just a job. It's a life and
it is and we see in the film the families
are all part of that, and you're just that's your
(21:59):
whole network, in your whole group. And then to be
taken out of that, well, we know from we evolved
from hunter gatherer tribes and so when you're kicked out
of the tribe or removed from the tribe, that's a
death sentence. And so that really needs to be nurtured
and managed a lot better than what we are doing.
And we know the effects of all of that, and
(22:22):
we've seen it time and time again, and you've got
all the findings of the Royal Commission.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
It's okay, so what yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Well it's about doing stuff and leadership. I know people
would say you spent so long in homicide, how did
you survive? And it wasn't going to the homicides that
caused me drama. It wasn't the horrific scenes or chasing
the crooks. It was leadership that caused me more frustration
than anything in the place. And I get the sense
(22:52):
speaking and speaking to military guys, there's a lot of similarities.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
There, one hundred percent. And it's that administrative violence. I
think you've see term that you coined and we've all
experienced it, and we see different interpretation of the rules
and just using it against people that basically the hierarchy
are responsible. And once again, you get into the defense
force and then you have this trust in the system
(23:21):
and you hand over all responsibility to the hierarchy for
your destiny a lot of the time and they have
a really unique responsibility. Or there's that duty of care,
and that duty of care is not being exercised by them.
We see with our case, with your case, you just oh,
(23:45):
you get thrown under the bus and then sat off
to the side and isolated and they don't give a shit.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Well, I suppose, like with my case, I'm getting judged
on how I investigated the ducts and the suspected murder
of a three year old child that we still haven't found. Yeah,
what what do people want me to do when I'm
investigating that just walk up to people and say hey,
have you done this and they say no and move
(24:13):
on like That's what frustrated me. Everything that I did
in the investigation support the support of the above, but
when it blows up and there's some complaints or allegations,
that's everyone just distanced themselves. And I thought leadership was
about you know, I led in the in the police,
and I'd like to think that I tried to be
(24:35):
the best leader I could. But I would look out
for people under my command.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Those you're responsible for, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
And I would accept if they're mistakes. I would often
say to people, but yeah, if you if you make
a genuine mistake, I'm going to support you one hundred percent.
Do it out of laziness and the support's not going
to be there. And that was the way I worked by.
But leadership in the army seemed to be lacking. And
what you guys went through with the allegations of special forces,
(25:06):
I would have thought there would be more people standing
up support thing you within the military.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
You know, once again, we had amazing leaders within now too.
Burns he's one of them. He's in the in our
film mass On Weeks. You are amazing leaders they seem
to get marginalized and then they end up just having
enough and leaving as well. And so yeah, you would
think that the leadership have got this special forces unit
(25:35):
that is doing amazing things and as I said, we're
winning every fight and giving them every chance of success,
that you would want to ride the coattails of that
instead of extinguishing it. I guess there's some sort of
narcissistic stuff going on there which you would have experienced,
and just poor examples of leadership. And so when there
(26:01):
is rumors of something going wrong and they just kick
you to the curb and actually put a blanket allegation
perception on everybody.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
And.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
It doesn't really make sense because at the end of
the day, they are responsible for everything that goes on
under their command, so to pick and choose, you don't
get that choice. So when I was patrol commander, everything
good that happened within the patrol was well under patrol,
and anything bad it was like, well that's on me.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yeah, that's that's leadership. I get the sense, and this
is me looking from the outside, no internal knowledge, but
I get the sense from what you guys went through.
If there were no allegations or nothing blew up the
very people with are now distancing self themselves from you.
Would have been standing there beside you, all proud and
(26:54):
giving themselves pats on the back and look what we did.
But because there was alligation, they distance themselves and yeah,
if they are leaders, they know what's going on underneath.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Well they they were happy to take themselves medals for
everything that have it there.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I think there was a parliamentary inquiry into it all
question times in Parliament and there was a politician I
think it was David Chewbridge that asked the question of yeah,
senior military figure, well you've got the medals for their deployment.
(27:32):
Should you give the metal medals back? And no, are
you responsible for what's happened over there? No, I wasn't.
I wasn't responsible because I didn't have control. Or therefore
why are you wearing the medals? And yeah, that's not
the verbatim, but that was the gist of the line
line of question.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
That makes sense and it really encapsulates everything you've been
talking about. Yeah, I'll take I'll take the good times
and then the bad times are not more responsive distances.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
We jump past the wildlife protection over in Africa. Tell
us about that.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
So I'm working with a company called Malavora Systems.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
It's a veteran run organization. He's extra strain and military
as well. He lives over there, and what we do
is mentor local wildlife arrangers and so we'll go over
there and run training for them, and I run a
lot of mission planning, appreciation and so recently I was
(28:40):
in South Sudan and so in seven weeks I had
them from give them a warning order. Okay, this is
what we got out on the ground. These are the issues,
and then they would do an appreciation process, course of action, development,
brief me back, choose a course of action that's appropriate.
They go and right the orders to for the orders
(29:00):
and run a.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Mission okay, and like poaching, this is tell us about
the environment because this is hardcore.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
So it's some of the most special force of stuff
we've done because you're you're out there living in the
park with these guys running. Essentially it's a it's almost
a paramilitary unit against these guys who are out there
poaching bush meat obviously rhinos and elephant horns to get
(29:31):
get money back. So some of them are just doing
it for survival. But obviously you've got the international factors
coming in and paying them big money, and so of
course when you're subsistence, you're going to go for it.
So there is that humanitarian issue that you've got. I
can't blame these guys. We've still got to break the
(29:52):
back on.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
This violent environment.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Yeah, it is definitely violent environment. So you have everybody
is carrying guns, which which I'm quite comfortable with. Going
out there and being able to de escalate the situation
is some of the most rewarding times I've had.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
You got an example.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Well, yeah, so even like just recently, we've got warring
tribes within South Sudan and everybody's scared of these they
called Muralley and they've got a really bad reputation or
they live off the land and they just carry guns
as much guns an ammo as they can. They're in
the neighborhood and actually in our park near the headquarters,
(30:34):
and we get the guns out, everybody get up ready
for to defend. Hang on a second, let's let's go
and chat to them. So one of the young one
of the locals that we had working for us, I
put our guns down and went out, went their hands up.
They're all pointing guns at us. It's not exactly comfortable,
(30:56):
and you sort of think of those safety seers aren't
really affective on old bit of kit, and that that
itchy trigger is actually if the fingers on on the trigger.
But you know, their leader had his gun slung, and
so we were able to have that conversation, you know
who we are, you know who you are, You're welcome here.
There's come and take water, there be no fighting on
(31:19):
our lands, and you know, we're able to have that
conversation and everything just de escalated, and they were really
happy with it because they're all used to just shooting
first and asked questions later. It's like gang bangers basically,
and so having been able to just actually do that
was so rewarding. And then that's the first step getting
(31:42):
a bit of a flow on and established and that
credibility for you being in our area where you know,
they live off the land, and now we're telling them
no hunting here, so we've got to have a bit
of give back. And then we ended up doing some
medical clinics in the villages and engaging locals and actually
(32:02):
got to built repair some wells which then some of
the ng O people who were responsible for all that got.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Pissed off at me because that.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Was their job and I'm out en gring the ng O.
So that's that perception, what do we need them here?
Were spending too much money and.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
They're referring to you like merks basically coming in.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, that was how they saw us.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Then we started, I was using my guys of the
rangers for these tasks and work because we teach them
first aid and so we're engaging with the communities and
providing first aid and a little bit of protection to them,
and so we're getting the locals on board. So that
that was some of the most rewarding things I've done.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Would for many years.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
I would imagine it would be rewarding, like it's worthwhile
service in a war zone, like when you're deployed to
Afghanistan and you're doing you know, you're doing the work
ars of you by the government. I would imagine going
from that environment and then doing something like wildlife because
it's basically about wildlife protection, but you've opened it up
(33:07):
even more if you're helping villages and a little bit
of medical and water systems and different things. That must
give you a real balance out. You said mentioned the
ying and Yang wars. People are going to die and war.
That's a business of war. But doing something like that,
did you find that was good for yourself?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Well, when I come back from doing that people, I'm like,
I am, Now it's just wholesome and that's maybe that's
where I belong to doing that stuff. And so yeah,
you feel good and being able to So I've got
the martial skills to back it up because I've been
downrange and seen war. We don't want that and having
(33:48):
those marcial skills to back it up. And I guess
once again we're selected on intelligence and our problem solving
skills and our ability to engage with people from around
the world. Being able to do that and actually assess, Okay,
what's the issue here and what do we need to
do to solve it. We don't always resort to those
(34:10):
war or guns. You know, we don't just have a hammer.
We've got many tools in our toolbox.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Because people see, like you said, the martial skills that
allows you to do the work that you do. People
see a's an neither or you're a soldier or something
that NGO doing some good for communities, but quite often
the martial skills allow you to do the work, the
other work that you're doing.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Yeah, I think that's the true being a true warrior
is having that capacity, is that the meat will inherit
the earth. We're not talking about being meek, and the
meek are the ones that leave their shorts, their sword
in the scabbard, and go and work out other ways
to move forward into the future. So if you start
(34:58):
pulling that sword out every time, nobody evolves, nobody goes anywhere.
And so I find it much more rewarding when you
don't have to pull that trigger.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
What's the attributes that I see it? Just in conversation
with you, I can see where you're coming from. But
what's the attributes that you think make a good Special
Forces soldier? Are someone capable of fitting into the sas?
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Emotional intelligence is number one?
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Okay, Now, no one, no one would have no one
would have guessed. I guess that. But I understand what
you're saying.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yeah, understanding who you are, and that empathy is a
big one too. You're going into you know, you're offshore,
and even on shore, there's problems if you have an
empathy as you said, you understand the position of some
of the crooks and crims, you're like far out and
you're going to approach that problem in a different way.
And so once you start to understand the other people
(35:56):
who you're dealing with, said, you've got a much better
chance of working to towards a solution or resolution as
opposed to just right, we're going to hit force with force,
and we learn that in jiu jitsu, and it's much
better to do a flanker than up regards with lots
of smoke.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, well, emotional intelligence and that's the type of thing
that they're looking for with people that get to that level.
And I would imagine warfare. It's a changing world in warfare,
isn't it. It scares me the capability of drones and
everything that's going on there. You still see a role
(36:35):
for Special Forces soldiers in the future.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
I still think you need boots on the ground at
the end of the day's but the drone spaces is
really interesting. One drones these days will take out an
SF team. It's no competition really with all of the
the optics and capabilities they've got. You know, a lot
of the times the teams can't even reach out, and
(37:00):
you've it's got one. Even at the tactical level, you've
got all those small drones, you know, half a dozen
of ten.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I've seen footage of a drone chasing someone to take
them out, Like.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Yeah, your standard little dji, it's got that that capability
to follow a person to do selfie see you know.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Then you put a bomb in that thing.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
And it's pretty simple technology by today's standards, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah, anybody that's gone clay shooting, you've got a shotgun.
It's hard to hit a clay target. And then there's
things going to maneuver and chase hits, and then and
then you have multiple of them.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
It's and it might change a potentially power base to
like that's not the biggest army anymore, like the.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
There's a couple of things on that. So now you're
going to fight wars with drones. So it's it's much
more palatable to fight a war because we're not losing anybody.
So that there is that one issue. And also we'll
back in traditionally, the bigger population, the bigger your army,
(38:13):
and so the bigger your army, better chance you've got
a winning. Well, now this technology is coming into into
the whole space, then you've got well, now maybe Singapore
who's got technology, technology is a potential for all we're power.
You know, it's she's going to change that dynamic on
(38:34):
the battle's face. At the end of the day, you
still have to have roots on the ground to occupy
and manage things. And so I think Special Forces certainly
does have a role. We've just got to evolve that
role and it you know, it's always it should always
be evolving. And what we see I see Special Forces
as the R and D department for the regular army.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Yeah, well that that's part of the makeup of s
A is that continued to evolve to fit into whatever
environment they might need and need to fight in.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yeah, well, I guess.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
And also preparing for a black swan because you just
don't know who. You didn't see nine to eleven coming.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Yeah, well that's yeah, that change the change of the landscape.
When you were in the army at that time, when
when that happened, did you realize your life was going
to change so dramatically?
Speaker 3 (39:27):
Yeah, hich thought, Okay, jobs on. Actually ironically I was
in these team or at the time, and I was
on actually guard duty on the on the front gate
of the little base at Bobinaro.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
So I guess joke that it happened on my watch,
too good one.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Now we know who the because I came off off
the guard duty and looking at the screen and the lunchroom.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
What's that? What's going on there?
Speaker 3 (39:57):
The planes flying into a building. So yeah, that changed
the world for it.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
That changed the mentality of everyone in the army at
that Now the training became very real.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
It certainly made it real. So we team or kind
of made it real. But then then okay, this is
next level now now it's yeah, and then obviously Iraq
and in Afghanistan, this this is something real. And you
know some of the guys captured it in bravery and
betrayal the actually it was one of the sons Kegan.
(40:31):
Is the feeling sending dad off to East team or
was different to sending dad off to Afghanistan? Yeah, and
so it made it a bit more real real, Yeah,
and yeah, significant increase in the.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Threat you you have relatively recent also been across to
the Ukraine. Security for doctors getting into hospitals near the
front line. Again, that's the way I say that's balancing
out or not balancing, but it's a real yin yang thing.
You're helping people and getting medical support into a war zone.
(41:04):
How was that?
Speaker 3 (41:04):
That was an experience that was really interesting because I
was not armed, and actually it's quite safe. I think
within Ukraine, if I was getting around armed, I might
have got myself into more trouble than not being armed.
And you know that recognizing that's important. Coming from the
across the Polish border, having a look at all of
(41:27):
the eighty second airborne high Mars pointed eastward and all
the hardware going on over there was interesting. But then
going forward to I think we're in fifteen kilometers of
the front line now. These hospitals that I was escorting
surgeons who have been functioning like that since twenty fourteen,
(41:48):
when the the Next People's Republic, the Hunts People's Republic,
and Crimea all had referendums to leave Ukraine because there's
a lot of corruption now, and I think it's to
be expected because they've only had sovereignty since nineteen ninety one,
and so there's going to be that power struggle, and
(42:10):
I see that throughout Africa when the colonial powers pull out,
there's this power vacuum, and well what do we do
with this?
Speaker 2 (42:18):
And so they're all just power buying.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
Power corrupts and so you know, when you've got a
government that doesn't hand out money to the regions and
you're Australia did that with New Guinea too. We just
pulled out and virtue signaled to the world, hey we've
given it to give it to a bit. There's if
you slowly withdraw and enable the locals and build them up,
(42:44):
then it's a nice way to do it instead of
just pulling out and going look at us, aren't we awesome?
Speaker 1 (42:49):
You acknowledge as a soldier, you sign up and yeah, yep, military,
you can be ordered. This is how we're going to
use you for whatever reason. That might be something you
personally don't agree with, but you accept. That's part of
signing up up for the military is that that correct.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
And so once again it's that unique factors of service
you give you.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Join the army in.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Life and if you do have a big issue with it,
then you get.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Out reflections of your time in service in Afghanistan and
the time in the military. Do you look back at
it with pride?
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Yeah, you know, some of the fondest times in my life,
I often wish that I could do it again.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah, we all want that all. So I'd like to
start again and do it all again.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
Yeah my brain thinks I on twenty one, but my
body thinks I'm an idiot.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Just listen, listen to your brain. Don't worry about it.
You'll be fine.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
But yeah, you do. You do look back at it,
and you've paid the price emotionally, physically and everything that
you've been through it. But you look back at your
service pride.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, it's great pride. And I'm glad that
I'm really glad that I've got the opportunity. And I
do promote the idea of anybody else that's considering getting
into the defense force to go for it. And again,
I achieved amazing things in there, and it set me
(44:22):
up well, and I've got some lifetime friends forged in
fire and and yeah, they were great times, and I'm
thankful that I got that opportunity. And so so I
say this, there's no greater calling than to be of
service as long as people serve, not take interesting. So
(44:44):
when you are joining up going with the eyes white aprons.
Once again, we saw what they did to the Vietnam
vets still joined up and so what they're doing to
us and let that put you off, but go in
with the eyes white open.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
And now here we are with the film.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
So I'm hoping that that will raise the awareness in
Australian public so that we can take steps to ensure
that it doesn't happen to the next generation.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
And what And part of the motive I understand that
for the film is to make sure your story, as
in collectively everyone that was involved in this story that
comes across you would hope that these allegations about war
crimes and resolved sooner rather than later, because people's lives
are on hold.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Yeah yeah, so and that was when we recently did
a screening at Parliament House and it's one of our
big things is Okay, this has been going on for
ten years now. I'm not a lawyer or been involved
in policing. I'm pretty sure that these things shouldn't go
get dragged on that long and if there's anything there,
(45:49):
it should be finalized, charges, put up or shut up.
We've got ex military people from the UK that.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
The Island conflict.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
They've got allegations hanging over their head. And I think
the guy just died recently for fifty years, he died
with those allegations, So you know, I imagine living with that,
and so that's got to shorten your life and the
impact that has not only on the person that's under charges,
to flow on effect the family. So I think one
of the findings on the Royal Commission into Suicide is
(46:26):
anybody that comes into contact with the justice system, it
does have a psychological impact. And the longer you are
in contact with that under investigation, the greater the effect.
And so then we're talking about suicide algy and not
only that trauma that you're passing on to your family
(46:49):
and then the community. And we've got not only that,
and you've got kids coming home from school being teased
that the dad's a war criminal as well.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yeah, it's far reaching, isn't it. And I sit here
and say, I hope they get it resolved sooner than later,
because I think it's just a living hell and nightmare
that these people are going through. And yeah, it's you guys,
shit happens. I know who I want going to defending
our country. It's gather you blokes. Together, defending, defending the country,
(47:22):
and yeah, I think we've got to accept that it's
an environment that unless you've been there, you don't understand
what goes on.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Yeah, it's quite complex, you know.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
So I have been to Ukraine and so I have
an opinion on that, and people ask me about Guarzian.
I haven't been there, so I don't have an opinion.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
All right, well we might wrap it up. I just
to see Bravery and Betrayal the documentary. I know it's
still touring around the country if people are interested in
seeing it, and I thoroughly recommend it and certainly expanding
on what we've talked about here and some really interesting
and heavy emotional stuff that comes out in the documentary.
(48:03):
How can people find out where they can serve it?
Speaker 3 (48:06):
So get onto the Wandering Warriors website. Now there are
another veteran or support organization who have involved with education.
I guess we need to say that the film was
actually done on donations from the Australian public, So thank
you to all those people and managed by Wandering Warriors,
(48:26):
so big shout out to them as well. So Wandering
Warriors and the Burrow of in Betrayal two or two
point zero back by popular demand. You see all the
tour dates and locations working way south all the way
through to Tasmania and Adelaide in early November, and a
lot of regional centers in between.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Excellent. All right, before I wrap it up, you reckon
Spike's God, that's what it takes to get through the
selection course in the essays.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
These dogs have.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Sorry, Spike, will get your gig somewhere else. Thank you
so much for coming on the day. And yeah, total
respect for the services you've given to the country and
talking about the things that you're talking about. Total respect
from my end, mate, and I hope all the best
for the future and what you're doing. You should be
proud of yourself.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
Likewise, think you total respect for you and your your
history as well. Did a little bit of research O
got here and yeah, I was pretty much ignorant of
who you were.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
And then my headlines you.
Speaker 3 (49:35):
Know, I'm fami with the media reading between the lines here. Yeah,
thank you for what you've been doing while we've been here,
while we've been doing it overseas, so it takes all of.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Us and so thank you. Good stuff.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Thanks
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