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June 21, 2025 69 mins

Ian Roberts was one of the toughest men in the NRL. Behind the footy world’s brutal culture of macho masculinity, Ian was struggling to deal with his sexuality. In 1995, he bravely became the first footy player to come out as gay, breaking down barriers along the way. On this episode, Ian joins Gary Jubelin to reflect on his painful journey, share how he dealt with his family’s reaction and the headlines, and how he learned to embrace his true self.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life the average person is never
exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

(00:46):
I spoke to Iaran Roberts, the former hard man of
the NRL. We spoke about his career during a brutal
era when on field violence and macho masculinity was a
culture Eran also talked about how how difficult was during
this time dealing with his sexuality and the consequence has
been the first high profile professional sportsman coming out in

(01:08):
public as gay. We also had a deeply personal conversation
about the emotional impact the murder of seventeen year old
Aaron Light, a young man Iaran was very close to,
and the remorse he felt following Aaron's brutal murder. Ian
also talked about how he only found his true self
after rugby league through acting activism and helping others deal

(01:30):
with their own insecurities. Before we started this interview and
told me nothing was off limits. Well, Iran was true
to his word and it has made for a fascinating conversation.
I find Ian's story quite inspirational. Have to listen, Iaran Roberts.
Welcome to I Catch Killers.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
It's nice to be here. It's nice to be well.
I catch killers. It's been intimidating to be asked to
come on, I catch killers.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Okay, okay at a police interview room. Let's relax. Only
worry when I start to caution you. I've been a
big fan of yours for a long time, and I
think obviously on the football field, but more for the
courage that you took to stand up and be yourself,
to be your true self. And I think a lot

(02:21):
of people shy away from that. They go through life
and yeah, trying to please people. Or conforming to what
people want them to be and so full credit to.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
You, thank you, mate. But I will say I have
been very fortunate. I mean it was such a lot.
You know, obviously you're referring to my sexuality when I
came out, like, I've been very fortunate, mate, I am,
and actually I mean I'm sixty. I'm sixty next month, right,
So I've been totally like comfortable in my own self

(02:54):
now for thirty. You know, even when I was even
when I was a kid, I was always completely comfortable
like owning it and admitting to myself that I was
saying sex attracted. I mean, I like, I've never been
any had any internalized homophobia, which I'm really grateful for
because a lot of people do have to, you know,
to do something, struggle with it, deal with it. Yeah,

(03:17):
I mean, I I can never so it hasn't been
I mean, yes, I've been fortunate, and it's you know,
it has been difficult at times, but yeah, I've never
had an issue with it. Yeah, I mean I suppose.
I mean, even thinking back now, the first time I
remember that I was different if if that's I didn't know,

(03:39):
if that's the right word way to use that word,
but it would have been I would have been seven
nineteen seventy two. And I only know that because there
was a show called Checkerboard and it was it was
It was aired in nineteen seventy two, and I went
to the fiftieth anniversary about three years ago of this show.

(04:01):
And it was the first and this is why I know.
I was seven years old. It was the first time
to gay men had kissed on TV. And I was
sat in the lounge room with my dad watching it.
This is this is gospel and these two men kiss
like kissed on TV. And I was like, Oh, that's
what I do with my best mate, Barry Riley. You know.

(04:22):
It was just kids, kids being kids, right, I just
have a bit like and my dad and I just
used the language my dad said. My dad was like, Oh,
these fucking queers make my skin creep, you know, And
I was like, Oh, I probably shouldn't tell dad about Barry.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Well, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
But I mean, I went to that fifteenth anniversary one
of that the gentleman Peter is still alive. That was
like about three years ago. So I mean, that's but
I even knew before that that I was but I
also knew that, you know, it was something everyone else
had a problem with.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
You know.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Obviously my dad's reaction was was just of its day,
you know, like, yeah, but yeah, I never I never
strugg internally, mate. So I've always been really grateful that
that I had that makeup, that I didn't challenge myself
with it, and I didn't feel that I was in
any way dirty or wrong. A lot of people go

(05:14):
through that whole experience, yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Because you hear a lot of people talk about that
type of experience and that they suppress it and fight
it and the whole life, and yeah, it's enlightened when
they come out, yeah midway through their life.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah. Yeah, I've never had that. I've never had that
sense of feeling in any way internalized anything negative, you know,
like I just haven't. I I consider myself really fortunate.
That's why I say unfortunate. I've been fortunate.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
No, I understand well, As I said, I wanted to
get you on for a long time, and the opportunity
presented itself beautifully earlier this week, when Johnny had lined
us up to do a boxing session together.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Johnny lewis so nice to say him, He's like he's
one of those rare human beings. I can honestly say
I and Johnny is one of those one of those
people you meet in life you're a better person for
having met Johnny Lewis, like once you've knocked around and
like spent some time with him and saying the way
he's the way he lives his life in his philosophy,

(06:14):
like it's empowered. I mean, you understand what I'm talking.
He's one of those rare people. You know. It's like
like if he's one of those people that if if
someone else ever said something, you know, like negative about Johnny,
you have to say, mate, what's wrong with you? Johnny?
Like there's you know, you've got that wrong man, Like
you've you know, there's something wrong with you, Like Johnny
is He's just He's Yeah, he's one of those rare

(06:36):
human But I love the guy.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
I think because he as we're discussing the other other
day when we're training, that he's a mental to so
many people. But I think I'm looking for what that
special magic is and he just accepts people for who
he is, and he looks for the good in people,
and that that's seems.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
He doesn't matter to Johnny where you said socially like
you know what I mean, as long as you've got
a smile on your face and and you're respectful, that's
that's yeah, that's everyone's an egal Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
It's a good way to go through life, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, it's great. But I just like it was kind
of nice. Could Like I said, I haven't hit the
pads ranging for a while, and then ten fifteen minutes
into it starts to get back into your body. It's
like things get in your body and like anyone that
that recall can't and you start a couple of times
you hit hit the pads really well and just like
you can feel the strength and oh yeah that feels great,

(07:27):
you know, I just remember. Yeah, so that was kind
of nice. But I will say I'm sixty next month.
The day after, oh my god, I felt I felt
my shoulders felt like I was one hundred mont I
was just.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
Says something, doesn't you lose it? But I wondered if you, yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
My shoulders particularly just but I've had issues with my
shoulders now for a long time. But I do. Yeah,
I'm not twenty, you know, I mean when you're twenty,
like when you're fifteen hitting about twenty. You're never going
to be fifty and sixty, are you? No, that's just
that's for dead people.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
That's true, right, you can't even think about it.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
That's never going to happen to you. But yeah, get
to your catches as all.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah, you're you're a lot of things for a lot
of people like you've had. I think even I'm sure
you describe yourself as an ordinary man caught up in
extraordinary times and things. But you know, you're a footballer,
you're an actor, you're an activist. You've come out on
so many different issues, and you take a stand on things.
I suppose the question and trying to introduce you to

(08:39):
the podcast here, how would you describe yourself? It's a
tough question.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
That's a I'm gonna have to memory and come back around.
And I had never thought of it like that. I mean,
that's really you know, I don't know if anyone's how
do I view myself as.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
I'll help you help you out a bit in terms
of what you've done in life, what you've achieved, And
you've achieved good things in different different areas, and success
is measured in different different ways. But you followed your
passions on different things. Do you see yourself as a
footballer or do you see yourself as an actor or
a combination of all these things.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
I think you know, people are complex man, Like you know,
age changes changing changes as well. My views now, like
in lame, will change on Like like I said earlier, mate,
you know when you're fifteen to twenty, you're never going
to be sixty. Yeah, you know, like everything changes. I yeah,
I think I look at my mum and dad and

(09:39):
how they struggled, you know, I mean they really struggled.
I mean I'm a ten pound pom. My mum and
dad came out here. They would have been twenty seven.
They came out on a boat, so I would have
been about I was about one and a half. I
had an older brother, Paul, and an older sister Julie.
They were a couple of years older than May. My

(10:00):
mom and dad came out here with you know, less
than about fifty quid in their pocket. I just and
you know, like it's kind of weird, but not weird.
Don't I say this one. I'm about to say it's
going to sound really negative, Like I grew up and contradictory.
I grew up in a very It almost feels uncomfortably
saying I just say I grew up in a very racist, misogynistic,

(10:24):
homophobic family, but I grew up in a very loving family. Yeah,
and it sounds like my mom and dad. The truth
is that, you know, my mom and dad left England
and they brought their three kids with them because there
was too many blacks coming to to London, right, I
just be honest. But my mom and dad's journey while
being here my dad passed away ten years ago, has

(10:46):
been unbelievable, like their journey in themselves. And that you
asked me who I was. I think my dad kind
of answered that for moment. My dad passed away ten
years ago, and just be prior to him passing away,
he got interview. The interview was about me, but you
know they were asking my dad. And I have a

(11:06):
younger sister too. My younger sister, Kyle, was born a
couple of years after we got here, so you know
I have had two brothers, two sisters and a brother.
And the I think this kind of answers you, kind
of answers your question, not so much about me, but
the way I was brought up and where I like
to feel like who I am. The interview, I asked

(11:27):
my dad. You know, they said, my dad, you must
be very proud of your son and what he's done,
you know, referring to me in my situation and my dad,
but like it was like the best, the most. My
dad was very uneducated, but the answer like it was Shakespearean.
My dad said, you know when they said, you know,
you must be very proud of your son, and my

(11:48):
dad said, I'm equally as proud of all my children.
But I am so grateful all that grateful that I
was gifted a gay son and I got to see
the world as it really is. Wow.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
That's that's insightful, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
It's true like a bit, but it's like like like adversity,
you know, like adversity is what makes us that that's
that's what you really see, that's what shines in people.
My dad was like say, like I was, like, where
did that come from? You said, that's how I feel.
He said, that's you know I felt. And my dad
was When I first came out to my parents, I

(12:20):
didn't they didn't have We didn't talk for a number
of years. And that's because that was they fire problems.
I was really stubborn. I was always like you'd always said,
it didn't matter who I brought home, you know, as
I was growing up, you would love them because I
brought home someone the same sex. My parents initially, you know,
wouldn't allowed my then partner into the house. And I

(12:42):
saw we didn't. We didn't see each other or speak
for a number of years. But just their journey look
like that process of allowing change to happen, Like, I
think that is what you know, sometimes you just got
to allow change to happen. It's like you don't have
to agree with someone, but you can always have a
conversation with someone. Yeah, I don't know if that's answering.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
Well, you can have some kindness and just whinding it
back a little bit with your your parents coming out.
I am always amazed that people that can establish a
new life in another country. It takes courage, doesn't it. Like, yeah,
people say there's life can be hard. I can't even comprehend,
you know, the courage it takes to just be terrifying,
right and after another country, Yeah, one terrifying, the other

(13:27):
thing about the values and you talk about that your
parents had they said racist views, and that it's also
a generational thing, isn't it that the world has changed,
Like I give, I hear comments from people, you know,
a generational two ahead, I think you can't say that anymore. Yeah,
but on.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
The wrong side wrong side history.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
I dare say, you know, in thirty years time, there'll
be comments that we're saying now and people just look
at those two dinosaurs.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
That's not the way you're meant to.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
Meant meant to. A question that might be easier to answer,
is what's scarier walking out on the football field about
to face an angry pack, walking on stage, walking onto
a stage with a live audience.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
You know, I think for either of those two situations
can be terrifying the first initially, but I think everything
with like in confidence, everything becomes unbelievably powerful and engaging.
And yeah, I don't mean, you know what the word is,
but it becomes exciting. I mean, I yeah, like initially

(14:39):
playing rugby league in the first few times you played
first grade, it's terrifying, you know, for the first twelve months.
Really walking on stage the first few times as well,
But there comes up, there comes like it's almost like
an evolution within yourself of growth or I don't even
know if that's the right description, but confidence, once you

(15:01):
start finding your own way, finding your own mans, finding
your own path and the way you do things. There
was you know, there was a number of times during
my playing career that I that I was playing like
with and I think any any sports person will understand
what I'm about to say. When you play with like
just supreme confidence, So like you know, you hear that expression,

(15:23):
things slow down and you just get into this flow. Well,
it really does. Like there was some you know, it's
probably happened to me half a dozen times in my
playing career. I had patches for like a few months
where everything was just I was in control. I was
totally confident that my ability or it totally knew what
I was going to do before I did it. And
that kind of happened. But it took a long time

(15:44):
to get to that point as well. You know, my
initial couple of years at South I started playing first
grade at House in eighty six. You know, I was
like I was terrified of my own teammates, That's.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
True, but they were scar it was I was.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
I was in this pack with Les Davison, like David Boyle,
Mario Fanic, Wayne Chisholm. You know, I was just like
I was scared of like I was playing in the
same team. It was just like and they had a
really like I kind of caught that tail into that,
that generation of that the way the game was played
played played there.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
I was brutal.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, there was a lot of like cheap shots and.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
No place for the faint heart.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
You know, it is, it is what it is. But
I mean I, as a young guy might coming into
the and into this house pack. That was the first
year George Piggins was there, and Gus Goob was in
the second row as well as his final year, and
he kind of coached the team. But I had a
high work rate. I didn't. I wasn't really I mean

(16:51):
I like thirty forty tackles whatever and number hit. That
was always my style player as a young guy. But
I did learn after a while you kind of had
to It's almost like you had to mold you had
to mold yourself into something more than what was just
basic and that kind of scene basic. What I mean
by that is like I mean when I left Souse

(17:13):
in a United like Les Davis and used to cut
guys in half in that And I'm not advocating for
that anymore, but I'm just saying, like he said this style,
and I knew when I went from South to Man,
I just wanted to change my game, be a bit
more enforce and really take ownership of the game in
the forward packing like yeah, but you just have to

(17:34):
and that comes with confidence. In just the first couple
of years at House, you know, I was terrified Mason time.
I mean, I mean the first game I played with
the Charity Ship and we were playing some George and
I was like, opposite me, it was Craig young Man,
like he was like a bit of a god, like
he was one of my favorite players. I just like

(17:55):
he was like this oak tree, right, there's no change.
There's no change in his like his shape from his necks,
from his head down to his feet, like it's just.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
Like this, it's just a block.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Oh man. He was like a redwood. And we used
to have Tuger Craig Common. We had this move, this
call called Henry. It was you all in right.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
If your little nippy half back.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
And the second the second, the second scram Tiger walks
through Henry's on, Henry's on Craig Youngs just was I
was like, I went the water please, no.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
No, I'm like at the call of Henry.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
H and I like I made some feeble attempt. I
just wanted him to put like Craig Young to put
me out of my misery. Like I was just like
I was an order guy. You know. He nearly put
his like his fist through the back of my head.
But I was just but but that was that was
just being phased out at that time, like it and
I'm like, I'm grateful for it. But it did also
give me a realization of how physical the game had

(18:59):
to be at that time it was and if you
and if you didn't adjust your play and then that's
what I'm what I meant when I kind of when
I towards eighty eight eighty nine, when I really started
to become aware, you've got to change the style of
played to make this work for you.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Like that, Yeah, as the game is evolving you, you've
got to evolve too. I want to I want to
talk about talk about your career, but before I just
want to get a sense of your your growing up,
where where'd you grow up.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
So, like I said, we were ten pound palms. We
grew up in in the hostel at Dacyville. We were
there for three or four years when we first came
out here. Then we moved to Erubro and that's back
in the Housing Commission.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
We lived.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
Moved from Aruba to I went to Uber Bay School
from kindergarten right through to high school. Then we moved
to South Could you always in the housing Commission?

Speaker 1 (19:52):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (19:54):
And I think we left the Housing Commission my mom
and dad bought their first home in Botany. I would
have been about sixteen then. I think that would have
been about eighty one.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
And did was football always your passion or well?

Speaker 2 (20:08):
My dad used to be a boxer, right like, so
it kind of I kind of learned to box, not
learned to box. I mean, that's a hard way to
describe it. But my dad used to train my brother
and Ice. I've kind of always been and I've always been.
Really I felt really fortunate my dad did that because
for my own situation later in life. And yeah, I've

(20:30):
always kind of been able to look after myself, like
not look after myself, but you get what I mean.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
But like I do it and I think and I've
been grateful for on Like a Crime podcast often when
I say about the benefits of people being taught self defense,
whether it's boxing or whatever stuff, it gives you the
confidence to stand up for yourself. Yeah, and maybe that's
what it proves yourself.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
Maybe that's what it is.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
I think it's a good, good thing. So I do
understand what you're saying. And even in policing, the fact
that I could look after myself at helped, Like, yeah,
I could back it up if I needed to back
back it up.

Speaker 2 (21:07):
And I think for me growing up, the hardest thing
was I didn't learn to read and write in my
thirties when I went to night I was dyslexic, right,
But but that wasn't that wasn't a thing when I
was a kid, was diagnosed. It wasn't like it just
dyslexily wasn't a thing I was. I was slow, right,
and always always used to be well, this is one
of those things. I was never in any way uncomfortable

(21:30):
about being the same sex attracted and knowing that as
I was going up, But I was always incredibly shameful
of of not being able to read and right, I
was that kid. I got suspended loads of times. But
I was that kid that the teacher. And this is
when we used to read out of books get up
and read. I'd make it about something else. I kick
the table over, storm out, or just throw a tantrum,

(21:54):
get sit outside. And I kind of like used to
usual to be really ashamed of not being able to
read right, like really shade. I repeated school a couple
like classes years, a couple of times, and that was
always really embarrassing for me as well, that I.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Was years you were hiding it by you.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't talk about I was always
in the special class, but you know that that was
always like so embarrassing. It was like really, And then
they say, there's that one teacher in your life. I
like to mention this because if I really did change
my life, I went right through school not being under it.

(22:32):
I was always pretty good with numbers, but so maths
and science comp but I could never read write. Then
when when I retired from footage and I wanted to
get back into acting, not get back into acting, I
just wanted to do some maybe do some community stuff
or some like community theater. Because the other thing about
being in the ensemble and that growing up, I could

(22:53):
never I never got any leads in that because I
couldn't read. I couldn't do I could do that like
the chorus stuff or anything, but read the light like
and that was always really embarrassing for me. Anyway. So
when I retired, my car had broken down, this true story.
My car had broken down just up the road from

(23:14):
Nider and I was walking by and this is now
I'm probably about thirty four. Yeah, I was walking by
nighter on an Zach Parade and Kensington and Kingsford, and
I thought, oh, I just duck in there Nighters see
if there's someone in there might be able to help
me do some like get back into some sort of
community theater, if they know someone blah blah blah. So

(23:34):
I went in there and I was you know, went
to the front desk and asked, and they buzzed Kevin Jackson.
Kevin was the one of the acting teachers there. He
changed my life. Was like, now Kevin knew me. Kevin
was a gay man as well, but Kevin knew of
my story even though he wasn't a football person. I

(23:56):
didn't know Kevin up until that point anyway, and I
said him about getting back in the community service. He said, oh,
come on, we'll do a cold bread and say how
you're going, and we'll see where he had. If you're
only good, you know, we might be able to help you.
Blah blah blah. So he took me in, you know,
he took me in this room and he gave me this,
this piece to read out. And he could tell as

(24:16):
he gave you men, I just like that the heat
the hot head thing you get and like I just
read it like ah, man, I just and he looked.
He said are you okay? And I just like, ah,
I just I can't read. I'm sorry. And he said
have dyslexia. And I had heard of that, but no not,
I'd never he said. I said, I can't read and write.

(24:37):
He said that's yeah. He said that's okay, he said,
he said, so you can't read you He says, what
we'll do is this. This changed my life. He said,
what we'll do is we'll take the piece I want
your learn. You go home and just listen to it.
Learn it open when you're ready to come back, and
we'll see you get That doesn't sound like much, right,
change my life, make like it was the first time

(24:58):
that he just seemed to not care, like he.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
Really so that dropped all your embarrassment.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
I mean, I was still really uncomfortable, right, but it
was just like this, this whole daorting really was that
easy to move on from this, Like it was one
of those things in my head. I'm just like I
can't believe, like it really really frustrated him. Like I
was just like, I have spent so much time agonizing
over not being able to writ and this guy just
like at first I was a bit angry, and I'm
just like, it's more important than that I can't read,

(25:25):
you know what I mean. He was just like, it's nothing,
nothing around it. And then you know, I learned the
police went back in and he's he trained me for
about six months, and then at the end of the
six months, he said, what do you do the audition for,
you know, for the club going for the three year course,
And I said, I'm a bit old, and he was like, mate,
if you're old, if you're old enough, if you're good enough,

(25:47):
you're old enough. That works both ways, right, he said,
it works both ways. So I didn't and I didn't,
and for the first six months a night. I didn't
tell anyone that I couldn't well, we told a couple
of teachers that I couldn't read and write, and he
would help me record stuff and that, and then then
we learned phonetics, which is another form of language. I

(26:07):
like writing and that that's kind of phonetics is what
saved me. I mean, I I right now like I'm
no Shakespeare, and I spoke about it before, but I
can read and write. I can like I can read
and write. Like I said, I'm no Shakespeare. But just
that one moment and like changed my life. It's just
almost like I remember a bit angry and the first
time he says, oh, do you have disc That's not
why I feel like, I say, what are you talking about?

(26:28):
But this has destroyed my life like that when you
talk about this is nothing. So it's just one yeah,
and yeah, it's just one of those moments. It just
and it kind of gave me this insight into other
stuff as well, like.

Speaker 1 (26:43):
Yeah, look, I think it's so important. And yeah, we're
always talking the ways of reducing crime and different things.
I've seen it so many times when I was in
the cops with people that struggle and you know, you
lashed out when you're in class and all that, Yeah,
and carry on in the society. And I've seen blokes that, yeah,

(27:03):
they're not bad people, but they're hiding something. Even in
the interview room. You sign this statement and you push
the way they'll say something just to and over the
years you work out you could spot it. Someone's just
hiding the fact that they can't can't read or write.
And it's something that we really should stigmatized. Well I
suppose we have in a way, but really help people,

(27:25):
help people.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
My partner Dan, he's he now works for the Education department,
but he's a school teacher. Yeah, and we've been been
toga in only twenty years. But the other good thing
is he teaches cater year six, so he's been great
for me as well. Like the whole reading and writing
and almost learning to read and write in your forties

(27:49):
and fifties, it's been wonderful.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
It would have been the world.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
It's like this, I don't know how to explain this.
Gas It's like this whole world got opened up to
me like that, this whole world that I've been like
moving alongside of, but I've never been able to step
into it reading books and just like sounds like it
doesn't sound like much, right, but like reading books was like,
oh my god, I've missed out on this whole thing.

(28:12):
It's like this whole other world of experience. It was incredible. Wow.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
Okay, So your childhood, when did you realize football was
going to be your career. At what point in time
did you think did you have any aspirations to work
in I want to do this, I want to do.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
That, sparky by trade electrician.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Right, So.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
I left in year ten, got a job as a sparky,
and I just thought that that would be that would
be it for me. I mean, like I said, my
education was never really valued in my family. My my
my two sisters were always going to be cleaners or secretaries,
and my brother and I were either going to be
like truckies or traders. That was, there was no real

(28:59):
value education with my mum and dad because my mom
was a cleaner mast of light. There's nothing wrong with that, yeah,
and my dad was like a project major process worker. Yeah.
So footy was And don't forget you're now talking at
a time when this is like you know, the early

(29:24):
eighties and that like players were on thirty and forty grand.
That was big money, right.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
A lot of them were still working.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
We used to train at house. We used to train
at like four thirty, so everyone could get home from
work and then go to training. That was a real thing.
Like that was like, you know, like that was just
the way. It was more in your day job than
you would playing footage. Yeah. Yeah, it was kind of
interesting that things kind of panned out that way for me.
And then when I was about I suppose I was

(29:52):
about eight A, nine A and I was you know,
I was I was playing for mascot at the time.
I was pretty good at I had a bit of
a sliding doors moment too, because I was going to
go and like I did what Boxing was a bit
of a thing for me as well. I was just
footy kind of happened before boxing, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
The opportunity.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Yeah, And I didn't really want to I'm going to
be honest. I wanted to step away from from from
rugby league. I didn't really want to play sports and
that if I was going to make those because I
was always the only thing I was worried about being
same sex attractive is I didn't think they I thought
they were like water and oil, they could never wait.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
The culture of the league at that time definitely homophobic.
Just it's much image and it's not the type of
thing that you would feel like that would be readily accepted.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, And I absolutely felt that's a good way of explaining.
I absolutely felt that. I remember I was the best
seven A A A and I said to my dad
that I was going to like stop playing footy for
that reason. Like, you know, I just I wasn't out
to my parents at this time, right, But I'd already
when I say I wasn't out, but I'd already been
on the scene. And you know, I I'd already been

(31:01):
out you know, the Oxford Street like it wasn't and
I was kind of out privately, if that makes sense.
I was comfortable to myself. I mean, I even I
used to have a Grand Corolla station wagon. It was
an old work van. In the back of the van,
I used to have these aren't going to sound like
a tickhead now.

Speaker 1 (31:21):
We've heard a lot on this.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
I used to have these clothes in the back of
my station wagon. It was like old military jackets. And
I would go out drive around the corner and get
changed into these fat like and then then go to
the Exchange and down Oxford Street and patches and like
in in a flashy, flashy year that whatever that you know,
that that that era was with the big hair and

(31:45):
that sorte of thing. And then when I come home,
I get changed again before I went and put put
them in the back of it.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
That to put stress on you, like yeah, but it
was also fun.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
The first time I went out in Oxford Street, I
was about sixteen. I found I say this all the time.
I went to a place called float Flows Palace. I
just got the bus in the three ninety six, and
there was this whole other world that opened up to me,
like I felt like I had a crush on the barman.

(32:16):
And then I left that place and I walked down
the road to the Exchange Hotel, and for anyone of
our generation, they would know the Exchange and that as
soon as I walked through those doors, I was like,
oh my god, I found my people. This is this
is where I belonged. It was that whole eighties punk
rock slash, you know.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
But then you go from that environment, then you're back
in the football culture. It must have been.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
It was yeah, it was. It was black and like
it was very different. Yeah, but I do just and
I used to live for Friday and Saturday nights. It
was anyway, So I was, I say, like, and I
was at that stage, you know, I just said, I
just said the dad, I don't know, I'm not going
to play anymore. And my dad was a boy and
my dad, my mum and dad who really supported me,
like taking me to My dad always was always the

(33:05):
manager or something of the young teams. I was playing
like a lot of parents are not invested. My dads
to love it too, and I was, you know, I
was playing good football as a young boat. And it
happens like and I I was going, I'm going to
step away. He said you can't. Boy, you know there's
a big chance. And so I promised my dad, I'll
give it one more year. And I got graded that year.

(33:28):
You know, like if my dad hadn't a like kind
of twisted mom and like walked away, I would have
definitely walked away, like because I didn't think I just
because I knew I was gay, like I just like
and I knew I like I had tried to date
girls and tried to do with that like that was
was not going to work for me, you know, I was,
and I knew the time was going to come that

(33:49):
I was going to have to tell my parents and
and I just didn't think that, Yeah, you speak earlier
about the conflict that I that I saw that there's
two wells kind of clashing or whatever. You know, I
just didn't I didn't.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
Think they could could you could you could juggle it?
Question when when did you come out to your parents?
When did they find?

Speaker 2 (34:10):
What about twenty two? And like like I came out
in like just an awful way as well. I mean
there are good you know, there are good ways to
come out, and there were ways that aren't so good.
And in saying what I'm about to say that there
was there are one hundred thousands of stories much more
inspirational than mine, But there are thousands of stories much

(34:30):
more tragic, mate, and like the consequential the mine as well,
you know, like I just want to make I came
and my mum used to work at Connie as like
as a cleaner. This is how I came out. So
it was nineteen eighty seven and I was having a
really good year as its house. Actually I'm giving myself
a pat on the back. I got proper the year
that year for the daim Yeah, okay, it was my

(34:51):
second year in in the in the top rode. Anyway,
my mum was working at Quotas and these these two boys.
My mom's at lunch and my mum's having a sandwiches
or whatever, and that just opposite. Like we are now
two boys reading a newspapers. Now boys just been boys
with banter and just sledging and that type of thing.

(35:12):
And then not realizing that the article they were reading
was about me and not read realizing that, you know,
the mother of that person was.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
My mom's incomplete is.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
In complete earshot. And then you know, I had been
going out to Oxford Street, been doing that since I
was sixteen, and I had you know, I had partners
at that by that stage. And I'll just use a
language that was used so you can understand, and I
called this loose language and the consequences and the effects
that loose language can have and the devastating effects it
can have.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
Money.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
So these two boys are reading a little bit uncomfortable
with These two boys are reading that article. Mum said,
here reading your sandwiches, and one boy says to the
other boy, that's saying Roberts, he got caught sucking a
guy off at Oxford Street. Right, So just to be clear,
that wasn't true. You were clear of that. I didn't
get caught, No, no, but that wasn't true. It's just

(36:06):
two boys bantering. But you can imagine the effects I
had on my mum, right, she was and my mum
by that stage, people were like I had a hot
people hecklers and that at the foot would scream stuff
out and it was it was definitely out there. My
mom had to go home. She was she's not well.
I got a phone call off my dad later that night, and,

(36:27):
like I said, this is a pretty ordinary story for
gay people. They've heard these stories before, right, Like we've
all heard very simple stories. Dad, you said, oh boy,
you better come home and your mum heard something that work.
We need to talk about it. I got home. You
love this bit and I sit down. I walked into
the house. It was like someone that died. My mom's
bawling her eyes and my dad sits in front of

(36:48):
me and I sit down and I was like that, dad,
what's happened? And he mate, your mum's heard something at work.
We just want to hear you say that you're not gay,
and that'll be good enough for us. So you know,
like no, there was the way he worded it. So
we spoke about it after like and I'm like, oh no,
that I'm gay, and my mom went crazy right like

(37:10):
she just but uh, this is a very familiar story
for for gaying. They would have heard these stories before.
But my dad is real. Actually was the best. He
stood there and like he was just staring at me,
and I'm just like looking at him. He's like, but
you play front row? He was like, you play front row?
Like he was stuck on that. Like he said about

(37:31):
three or four times, like your front rower. Like he
kept saying this thing about the front row. And I'm
just like so like he said, like it like it
didn't compute, you know anyway. I didn't didn't. I didn't
didn't go down. Well, I looked like I left the
heir we did. Uh, you know that they they weren't happy,

(37:53):
but they said stuff that like you know like okay,
well and my uncle, my dad's uncle Jack was gay. Uh,
but it was one of those things the whole family
denied and Uncle Jack and uncle John. He's his special friend.
Like we're always invited, but no one your uncle dad
Jack was gay. They like Luis.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
I think families have got everyone's got.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Jack, right, everyone's got every family's got an uncle Jack.
I just said, Dad, your uncle Jack nor he was?
I said, Dad, come on, man like anyway. But that
was years later. But yeah, like my dad says something
like you know and but at that stage I was
I think my partner's name was Shane. Uh. And he said, oh,
well you know you told them that Shane and anyway,

(38:35):
he just so you know you can't come around. I said, well,
if Shane can't come around, Dad, I'm not coming around
until you're get in your head. That was That was
why Dad, until you that was the line in the
sand his dad, do you get in your head? This
is who this is the way it's going to be.
I'm not coming We didn't. We didn't speak for no reusement.
It's just but it's funny my dad's reaction. You just

(38:58):
stuck on that on that reway. You're front right, but
you play front right. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
Well, I think and as you said, a lot of
families have got stories. I'll check with my sister from
allowed to tell this story. We might have to have
to edit it. But she's gay and she was going
to come out and my parents were having Christmas up
up the coast and I wasn't going. I had something
else on that. And my sister said, I'm coming out
to my mum and dad. I said, I'm up there.

(39:24):
This is going to be interesting.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
It's nice. She says, she was out to you. Yeah,
that's that's that already tells me, mate, that's that's a
that's a nice relationship between you.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
Yes, yeah, it was a good relationship. So we're at
the Christmas everyone's sitting around for the Christmas dinner or
whatever it was, and Michelle comes out and my parents
are saying, I think her friend is they're just good friends.
And I'm going, are you sure? Mom? And Dad? I
know it's coming, so I'm sort of frowing fuel on
the and then she's come out and Dad's there, okay, well,

(40:01):
and he's sort of fairly easy with it. Mum was
fine with it, but she all of a sudden decides
she had to pick up all the plates off the
off the table, and she's busy doing the doing the
washing up, but the next day was the best bit.
Mum was so rattled by it. She's telling people, Ah,
my daughter came out as Lebanese. She's so rattles you

(40:22):
couldn't even say lesbian. She's saying Lebanese. So now we've
declared that mum's got a Lebanese daughter because she was
telling people just how rattle sweet. But do you think
I think part of it is Yeah, I could be wrong,
and everyone everyone's different, but I always think it's part
as a parent, you want your kid's life to be easy.
And I'm sure part of the reaction from your dad

(40:43):
would be knowing the world and your mum knowing the
world that your life's going to be that little bit harder.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
Absolutely, absolutely, you know that they do think it was
going to be difficult though, and they were you know.
The other thing is they were worried about what people
would think that make, you know, and there was that
still a thing that gay men a week becau there
was all that. I mean, I I'm part of an
education program called Think About It and we we it's

(41:10):
theater sports stuff. One of the a couple of the
scenes that I'm involved in. Uh, we go out to
corporations and if the corporations, and we started off during
the NRL. That's how it started on all the teams,
and we touch on subjects. We do scenes where around misogyny,
violence against women, homophobia, drugs in sport and with the corporations,

(41:36):
you know again all those things about discrimination, and we
get a couple of people up involved from the audience
and then and then we talk about it and how
best it could have navigated. Uh, And I tell I
kind of tell that story about my coming out and
the way that we have a couple of saying around
homophobia and the best way approaches. And I told my

(42:00):
mom that, well, I've been doing that think about stuff
now for well over ten years. I told my mom
just recently, only a couple of months ago, that I
do that scene and I talk about I mentioned occasionally
mentioned about the situation with her at lunch and that
and how it all came to her head and my
mom found out. And I kind of make it a
bit jovial and like when I tell the corporations and

(42:24):
the teams, and I make it a bit funny because
I find it easier if you can take fund at yourself.
It lets people in. I tell my mom, That's how
I do it. My mom. Mum's eighty five. She broke
down and started crying like she's because she remembers the
way she acted and how and how catastrophic it was
for her. And I felt terrible like that I hadn't
spoken to her about about and she's still dealing with that.

(42:46):
And that's what I was saying about that the power
that you know that words have and symbols have. It
was just one of those like real grounding moments from them,
like your mom, you're still dealing like my mom is
one hundred. My mom's grace ally of all the time
for gay people now, right. But she says, yeah, she
still feels how her initial react and what she thought

(43:08):
about me, and that how bad it makes her.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
How the impact on you. I can understand.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Words, you know, like LS language has a damaging though.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
Yeah, yeah, okay. Your football career, so you started playing
playing with South's you spent four years there. Your football
career is quite incredible. You've played for I've just got
some of the stats here. You've played for Australia nine times,
nine times.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
As a dozen times. I suppose I don't even know
the number is.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
Two hundred and thirteen first grade games South Sydney and
Manly and Wigan and North Queensland. You played state of Origin.
I've got a couple of things here. By the age
of twenty one, Jack Gibson, who's sort of renowned as
the Guru of rugby league, described you as the best
front brower in the game, and at one point in

(44:05):
time you're the highest for profile player in the game
and the highest paid player in the game.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
That's a long time ago, and that's when that's you're
talking about now. When I went to man Like, I
got twenty grand a year, yeah, and that was like
that was that was when fifty grand was huge money.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Yea.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
Yeah, I was fighttering, Yeah, but.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
Johnny Johnny gave me an insight, took.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
Me over the man. He really took me under his
wing mate. He was. He was such a champion mate.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
And George Piggins didn't talk to him for a week. Yeah,
but in the end he'd be Gradually he.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
Was a champion man. You know, I played I went
to Wigand too. That was at the end of eighty six.
That was great, that was wonderful. That's why I teamed
up with I met Graham Lowe. I'm still best friends
with Lowie.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
Now from New Zealand.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
The whole Weigand experience was quite quite extraordinary. Ters like
that was an eighty six we played against the Kangaroos. Yeah,
that was probably one of my best games I think
I'd ever played against the Kangaroos. Again, it was one
of those moments for me where I just started to
find myself, find my ability and have confidence in myself. Yeah. Yeah,

(45:15):
I've been I've been very lucky. I've been very fortunate.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
What are you Your teammates, your teammates at South Ye
Souse You hadn't come out publicly at that point in time,
but I think you described as the world's best.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
Or worst worst kept secret secret. Yeah, yeah, I mean
Souse is. I don't know how to explain it. I
mean I remember George Pickers took me aside at training
one day, this has been about eighty seven and just
mentioned it to me. He said, oh, there's a lot
of stories about you. He was he was, and he
was doing it solely to protect me, right, like you know,

(45:51):
he was from that generation. He's like, you know, it's
not a good look for you. Whatever. You know, you've
been seeing and he didn't. He wasn't asking me if
I okay. He just knew I'd been going out doors
for straight and I just said, George, I'm playing good
foot mate, like this is about it would have been
about eighty seven. I said, I'm playing pretty good footy.
I know. You said yeah, just what I'm here, you know,

(46:12):
and I and he was like, yeah, you're right mate,
Like he was really like that, like it's always like
you had that you know what, you're right you're playing
And what I mean is like he's like, that's why
you're playing good footy. Keep you on that, like it
was one of those. It was one of those moments
he's just like like I was really comfortable with like
that's what I mean. I was just like I think
it kind of He's like, oh no, he's right, he's

(46:34):
playing good footy. He's obviously like whatever you're doing, he
must be doing it right. You get what I'm saying.
It was like he wasn't like at first where he
was like you he probably shouldn't be done. I just jewish,
but I'm playing good foot mat like like I'm happy,
and he was like you know what. It was one
of those and one of those learning moments for me too.
You know. I was just like because because yeah, I was,

(46:57):
I was always uncomfortable with those two worlds clash, like yeah,
it wasn't. And then in eighty nine and ninety when
I left the house together manly, I mean I was
quite out on the scene, like like I used to
take partners to funk like it was it's hard to explain.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
It was.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
It was like and journals I spoke in the journeys
always wanted to ask me. But but and they've always
said that they wanted to respect that it was my
privacy as well, which is kind of nice, right, Yeah,
But it.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
Would have been tough in that environment with that just
hovering around, because you know, we talk about you had
a lot of yappy players back then, but like I
could imagine on the on the football field or not
the players of people in the grads, yea.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
And that's the other thing, but that's that was the
one thing you did you to cut me, is like
you can't you know, I couldn't protect people I cared
for from that, like my mom and dad and family
and friends, and when they used to have to listen
to that stuff, and you know, like, I love them,
but you can't protect them from that. Just like in
eight seven when I told you know, when I came

(48:02):
out my dad we spoke about it. So I can't
protect you against that, Like, because how's it going to
how's it going to affect us? I'm like, I don't know, mam,
but I can't protect you against that.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
And that that must have hurt you because you can
look after yourself.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
But that's everyone who's had anyone who's different, has any
sort of like that. That is definitely that is anyone
who's dealing with any sort of identity. I mean they're
dealing with themselves, they're also dealing with it on behalf
of people they care about.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
You Get what I'm saying is, yeah, so they're being
dragged into into your your world as well. So with
with Souse when you went to when you went to Manly,
is that when you you came out? Well, what I
was going to do and why did you? Well?

Speaker 2 (48:47):
I was one of the reasons. It's also just the
money I left house for. I left because I was
going to When I was going to Manly, I knew
Graham Lowe was going to be there as well. Low
He didn't know I was going, but I a really
good friendship with him. I was going to come out
in nineteen ninety, like when I left him, come out publicly.

(49:09):
But I'd always had this thing as a young person
and with my mom and dad that I shouldn't have
to come out, Like like I said to my mom
and dad, whoever I bring home should be good enough
for you. Like if I say, mom and Dad, this
is my partner, that should be enough, Like I've always
been like I was always like that, but I've seen
I since that visibility is really important as well, Like
you have to accept that, like I used to be

(49:31):
like that, Like it doesn't matter who I bring home. Yeah,
if this is my partner, this is my partner regardless,
like going to the footy stuff, I shouldn't have to
explain explain, like I said to George. But I'm happy mate,
like and I do regret that. So but I kind
of made my mind up in eighty nine and in
eighty nine early ninety that I was going to come
out publicly and just but then over in England and

(49:53):
justin fashion you Premier League. Yeah, he was the first
man who he came out in ninety ninety as a
gay man, the first man in professional team sport internationally,
and he was brutalized by the English press Fleet Street.
That was terrible, mate, and the support that this supporter's

(50:14):
base were awful to him. And this is back in
the time before as I put to my mobile phone,
before phones, like if you follow the story, you had
to read it in the newspaper, watch it on TV,
you listen to it on the radio. He was treated
terribly by the supporters of the game, and in fairness
looking back now, and he didn't handle it very well.

(50:37):
I thank himself and a lot of the stories that
were released, I thought he could have made the situation
easier for himself. He came out in nineteen ninety, retired
in ninety four. That's a year I came out and
died of suicide ninety eight. That is such a familiar
gay story. Regardless of it, that is such a familiar

(50:58):
gay story, and anyone and people listening who are particularly
of my era, would I would understand that it is
such that that's not shocking. It is shocking, but it's
not shocking. I've heard that story multiple times from different people,
you know, So yeah, that's yeah, and then when when
I saw the way that he was being treated, I
was like, I don't think that my parents would. It

(51:21):
wasn't about me. I was just like I was worried
about my parents and my family, like having to deal
with all that stuff, you know.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
And would I would imagine was there a part of
you that's going, well, whose business is it? Anyway?

Speaker 2 (51:30):
That's what I mean, That's how I was.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
That's how I call a press conference and go.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
That's what That's what I mean, Like you just have
to accept, like why am I? But but I did
realize like visibility, and that's that is my one regret
that I was that that was ever in the closet,
if that makes sense. I wish I'd been more much
more public right from the star, right from the start,
but I kind of came to lot. But I was
the thing was I was always worried about my parents
like that because they were so not handling me being gay.

(51:57):
You know, it's just so embarrassing and uncomfortable for them.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
But it's understanding not from the parents, but from your
point of view that you want to try and protect them.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, but yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
I can understand that it's almost like, well, whose business is it?
The Yeah, that was my that.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
Was my the way I took it. But yeah, I mean,
but then in ninety four, I was just like I
just had enough. I just we were going away in
the Kangaroo tour and I just thought, I'm going to
go over there as a gate like as a gay person.
I'm not going to like like, I'm just going to
speak openly about it. A shame my partner like he
like a lot of the players wives and partners go

(52:37):
over and they stay in hotels somewhere else with Boomberys
Shane came over and was staying in the burnbut the
oven was coming to games and that Terry Terry Hill
was my roomy and Terry and I was gay, and
like he did know I was gay. There was by
this stage a whole load of people knew I was gay.
I was quite open about it, but just I hadn't
come out officially to the public that if that makes sense.

(52:58):
I was always pushing back against I was like, because
I was leading this gay life, right, like everyone knew
this is like shame was my then partner. Everyone knew
shame was my page.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Yeah, not hiding it, but you're not making a public.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Yeah, I just but but I did realize then it's like,
you know, it was crazy.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
On that Kangaroo tour and from your from your book,
I picked up that one of the managers or trainers
or whatever made issue with the fact that Shane was
having having.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
Yeah, it's the best story of all time, and it's
the like, this was the most well, I think it
is the most significant moment in my Ragbila League career
as a human being. Yeah, like the change of direction
we played I was having was we played the first
Test at Wembley in front of one hundred thousand dollars

(53:48):
one hundred thousand people. We got we got beat by
twelve men by the great Britain side, but they played
out of their skins. But up to that point, my
form as front row I had been I was like
the form front right, Like my FHM was great. Like
I mean I can say that quite modestly, like shaking
my head, but my form was good. I didn't expect
to get but I even had a good game in

(54:10):
that in that test match, right, And I said, like,
when you're away on two players, wives and partners aren't
allowed to stay with you. In the hotel, they can
come and visit and I have lunch and this, that
and the other. That was always common practice, right, and
there was plenty of players wives and girlfriends over and Shane.
Shane was good friends with Terry Hill as well because
it was because Bozo was coaching Manly at that time.

(54:33):
My teram Terry. That's who Terry was playing for at
the time. Shane and Terry were good friends as well. Anyway,
after the first game, I love telling this story because
it's it's just that the respect that that that I
have for both this anyway, so you know, we played
the first test match, got beat. I wasn't expecting to

(54:54):
get to get dropped. And when you're a sports person,
everything's about playing test footy and like playing it the elite, right,
It's all that's what you're focused on. It's like, you know,
like so and he gets in the way that like
it's like it's it's catastrophic. On the Tuesday, Wednesday, after
the test match, I get we get a phone call
and Terry picks up the phone. This is back when

(55:15):
we used to have like literal real phones, have room
phones and he says, oh, bows, I'll put him on
and he like he puts the like puts the phone
out of and he starts slipping his throat like he's
going to catch it, you know. I get the phone,
I say bows and he says, robot made. I need
you to come up and see me straight away. I'm like, oh, okay, Now,

(55:36):
anyone who knows Bobby Fulton bozo like he's in a
mortal right. He literally isn't a mall but he's just
cool as a cucumber. Nothing gets under his skin. Mate,
always everything that was always fine. I had a really
good relationship with him. And my initial thought is a ship,
is he going to cut me? You drop me? And
like I said about earlier about the elite sports person,

(55:58):
and that's all I was, and I'm justified. So he
come and I played for animal skin anyway. So I
go up and obviously is in the penhouse up to
go up to the top level and we'll get out
the walk out the left and walk to the door

(56:19):
and the door his door is just ajar, you know,
like six inches and I look in and then like this,
Bobby Fulton cools the cucumber. He's pacing the room. Right,
this is not like but this is not Bobby Fulton stuff.
He's pacing and I felt like I was stood there
for ages watching him patients and I'm sweating and what's
going on? And i'mknock on the door and he said, Robie,
come in, sit down, mate, sit down, and he starts

(56:41):
pacing the room again, just like rubbing his beard. And
by this stage now I'm thinking there's there's more going
on here. There's something happened to my mom and dad
or something. I'm thinking maybe there's some bad he's got.
I said, just stop, what's what's happening? Just just tell
me what's going on. This is not good. And he
stops and he looks at and he just says, you
gotta understand. This is the hardest conversation this man's ever

(57:04):
had in his life. He looks at me, he says, Robert,
you know what that in my day? I don't care. Mate,
I'm like, what are you talking about it? He says,
you and Shane, my god, thanks both, thank you, thank
you for saying that. Mate. That's he said, mate. But

(57:27):
he's not allowed to stay within the hotel. Mate, you
know the rules web money. You've let me down. I said,
he's not base he's staying at the B and B
up the road. He just popped in every couple of days.
Said he says, so someone's give me the wrong information
that I said, yeah, he said, all right, crab like
starts copying.

Speaker 3 (57:45):
He said, I knew you wouldn't let me down and
said he's like, I knew you were three players. Said
I don't know what I was carried on for like
and it was like he did this whole like theatrical things,
like he's doing cartwheels on this and I it was
just one of those moments.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
I just like he stopped and I just said to
him the bows, thank you mate, I mean, thank you mate.
I can't tell you what that meant to me. He's like,
all good mate, Yeah, no worries. That was but it
was the first time in my life I felt It's
hard to explain to someone. It was the first time
in my life I felt validated. And this sounds a
bit dicky and say as a gay man like who

(58:21):
was a rugby league player and.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
Putting Bobby Fault in context, he is a legend.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
He was worried. That was the footing. He was my
coach at Manly. I mean Shane used to be that
the mascot, you know, the guy in the big an
eagle soup with wings and like.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
Doing car I'm sure there was.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
Everyone was friendly with Shane, like Shane unfortunately passed away
last year, had a heart attack, but we were best friends.
We stayed very good friends. But it was just that moment, mate,
I just like, like I remember like leaving that room
ten foot tall man, just feeling like I'm just loving bows,
just like feeling, oh, you get it, mate, you finally

(58:58):
get it.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
Because it was always an uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
Situation for people to navigate you and I understood that,
but it was just like I can't. I just I
played in every test match like like he didn't drop
me or you like, we ended up winning the series
to one. We went over to France, I played a
couple we played a couple of games and test test
matches over there as well. But it was just wonderful, mate.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
Yeah, I can see how animated you are just thinking
about it must have been just a real off way
off the shoulders and like when when you had come
out and how.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
Human I came back, like it really hit that, like
because I because like BOS made it easy for me too,
because he must have spoked, because I like, later on
I spoke, I'm just going to be game mate, like
like it was kind of weird having that conversation with
Bobby Film. I'm just going to be game mate, Like
it sounds like a weird thing to say. I just
I just like anyway, he said, that's all good, Robbie,

(59:53):
like he had a word with a couple of Janneys.
He made it really, he made it really, he just
just he made it. He made it happen, like not
made it happen. But I told him that made I
shouldn't have to This is what you gotta understand with me, mate,
I shouldn't have to come out mate. Yeah, like this
is like I feel like I'm almost betraying myself here.
Like it's he kind of got it, like and I

(01:00:14):
just just think about that moment. But it's like you
understood it, mate, Like it's just I'm playing good footy.
That was that George Piggins moment again, mate, Yeah, where
George you know what I mean? Where George even realized, oh, yeah,
you're playing good footy. This is all this is about, really,
like you know what I mean? It was almost that
juggle in his mind. It's just I've been very lucky.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Like well, there's been some good people for you, like supporting,
supporting people and Terry Hill and others that would talk about.
But there was also discrimination within the team. And there
was one again I reference your book, but an incident
where one of the players I don't know on the
training field, tempers fled and he said some derogatory comments

(01:00:55):
along the lines that you would imagine, and you took
him the tar after and the thing I like, how
you took him the task that there's going to be
consequences if you did that again. There's physical consequences. But
wake up yourself. It's not just about the impact that
has on me. It's on the young players and other.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
That's right, mate, Like it's like, you know, I lose language,
like you can't do you can't do that like people.
It's quite literally there were people like I don't want
to get into all those bad stats and statistics made,
but it's a real thing, mate, Like as again that's
I said, like a gay person listening to my coming
out story is so familiar. Listen to that, you know,

(01:01:35):
justin fashion your story, it's such a familiar story. It's
that's real stuff. Man. It's like you know, like it's
like with the Pride Round with Manly like a couple
of years ago, you know, with they like and I'm
not going to sit here criticize any place that's not
it's not for me.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
And just to explain that if listeners didn't understand what
happened there and correct me if I'm wrong, that was
going to be the Pride Round, and certain jerseys were
made up with about colors or whatever it was. And
there was a couple of players in the team that
said they're not going to play.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Six six of them set out for cultural reasons and
religious reasons. Right now, how do I put this up?
There would have been so many, so many young people
in the regional areas who wouldn't have heard much news
that that that week. But because those some of those
younger people were dealing with their own identity and that
they definitely would have heard that story. Yeah, yeah, you know,

(01:02:26):
and like that. It's that's what I'm talking about. That's
the consequences, you know. Like, and I often feel like
I because I do a lot of advocacy working in
around this space in that area. Man, when I talk
when we talk about having these types of conversations. I
always feel like for me or for my side or whatever,
it's not even side, it's just my opinion is I

(01:02:48):
feel like I need to be understanding. Just my starting
point needs to be I need to be understanding of
other people's potential misunderstanding. Okay, that's my starting point, and
like you've got to have a conversation. Everything starts with
a conversation. Yeah, I mean, but it's their statistics are
still out there and they're still devastating, and you know

(01:03:10):
I have lost uh yea, yeah, well yeah, yeah, I
definitely have lost friends. Like I can't imagine what would
be losing like a son or a daughter, or.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
The pain pain that causes because some you know, and
you've there's a lot of other examples. I think you
were signing signing an autograph the kids after a stay
of origin Blake and some knuckleheads run up and punch
in the back of the head and run off, and.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Yeah, yeah, there was an incident at Saint George. Yeah,
at halftime, go Rich and I think we were getting
beaten at the time. At the time, we were a
couple of points down and as we were walking off
He just kind of reached over and said saying, I
overreacted because I jumped. Yeah, and it's just ugly, you know,

(01:03:58):
like it's just I get it, like you know, like
you're talking about I never forget there was a state
of origin, and like it's funny. I think it's funny.
But just getting into the showers and one of the
other players made it very obvious that he was uncomfortable
with like, and I was just like, make day flatter yourself.

(01:04:19):
Trust me, You're safe, you know, trust me. I couldn't
be that fucking drunk, you know what I mean. You
know what I mean. And that's what I mean about
making it about God. You find the humor in it somewhere,
because even he started laughing, just like.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
I know, I understand. And the irony of the situation
you found yourself in. You were in a culture that
would have been out of all the cultures you could
find yourself in, that would have been one that really struggled.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
But also in the end, when people accepted an embrace,
it brings the team closer together.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
I mean, I mean that you would have had people wanting, but.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
It just brings the team together to could you know
Blake's like like Steve Menzies and Terry Hill and Jeff
two like they were. They were so fantastic, embracing and
jack girls like they were. It was wonderful. But it
was I would say mostly a younger the generation younger

(01:05:18):
than me, I felt saying to him, maybe because I
was an older player, maybe you know, maybe I had
Maybe that's what it was, but I did. I did
feel it from a younger. Yeah, they it was. It
was very interesting. Well, the other thing is I keep saying,
is like, forget the whole gay thing. Like I'm going
to sound like a dickhead now, but I was playing

(01:05:39):
good footing, you know what I mean. That's that's that's
what this was all about. Like I was playing good football,
and that's what I'm about. George said, George.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
I don't know, like when, yeah, when that's all said
and done, that that that was the issue. But look,
even when even when you came out, there was people
that wanted you to be on the soap box a
whole time. And it's a personal thing, I would imagine,
and some like gay journalists or whatever, why aren't you
speaking out more? And you could sound like you couldn't win.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Yeah, that's exactly right. Well, yes, yes and no, I
mean like yeah, like and I got to be honest,
I still say like it I never felt. I don't
know how like as I've gotten old, I've learned, you know,
like I'm because I'm so grateful that I was born gay,
Like you know, I've become a bit like a bit
of a super power for me, like the fact that

(01:06:31):
I'm just I don't even know what that means, but
I just feel like it's so enough. It's so it's
not my mum and dad. But now you know, when
they learned to embrace it, they became better for it.
You know, I said a bit earlier about people like
Johnny Lewis, like you know, I'm a better person for
knowing Johnny. You know, like that type of thing. You
get what I mean, And that's what I meant about.

(01:06:51):
You asked me what type of person I would hope
that like people just get to look.

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
Well, I think if you're you've walked that path, so
you understand and the pain of discrimination or anything that
where people are ostercized for the things, the damage that
can be done.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
And the damage that is done. Man, I mean, you know,
like there had been some situations have been really ugly. Well,
you haven't touched on any of that stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
We're going to touch on it in part two and
what happened with young Aaron and the impact that had
on you. But there was that at the time where
you were coming out and you you were the like
I'm saying from a member of the public, you were
the you were the poster boy of rugby league. And
then when you came out it was big news. Everyone

(01:07:36):
everyone knew knew about it. But that was also when
aids And.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Then I've been blessed mate that I didn't pick up
the HIV. Yes, like I had my first two partners
both passed away with h But I've you know, I
was quite promiscuous. That's not promiscuous. I was quite in
the early eighties. It was on Oxford straight.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
But there was a lot of hate put on the
Gaze because because of that, the misconception whether that's where
the disease generated from or whatever, But it was all
caught up in that time, the time and place. It
was a.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
Difficult the whole bowling ball, the grim.

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
Yeah, it was. It was a hard time. And then
there was also misconceptions on your gay pedophiles. That that's
another thing that plays into it. So yeah, it was
a tough period of time you went through.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
But yeah, but you know, I'm I'm great, and yeah
it sounds weird looking back now I can so I'm grateful.
I'm grateful.

Speaker 1 (01:08:39):
Yeah. Well, well we'll come back in part two. And look,
I say up front that it's going it's hard because
I know it's had an impact. And you know, we
sit here with like I Catch Killers, a crime podcast,
but this is where crime touched you very personally, when
young Aaron light was was murdered, and we'll talk about that,

(01:09:01):
talk about a period of time that you described as
the most content period of time when you left football
and you're in Nider doing the acting of training to
become an actor and all the other things you're doing.
So if we'll take a break and we'll be back
shortly
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