Bringing down predator Malka Leifer: Nicole Meyer Pt.1

Nicole Meyer was first abused by her school principal when she was 15 years old. Malka Leifer continued abusing her, and her sisters - Dassi Erlich and Elly Sapper, for years. From grooming the community to breaking off Nicole’s engagement, Leifer controlled every aspect of her life. The sisters finally broke their silence, reporting the rapist to police. But, in the middle of one night in 2008, Leifer fled the country.

Watch the Stan documentary, Surviving Malka Leifer, out October 5.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life. The average person is never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

(00:46):
I spoke to Nicole Meyer. It was a very difficult
conversation they have. You may not recognize Nicole's name, but
it's likely you've heard of the case. She was closely
linked to. Nicole and the two younger sisters, Elie Sapper
and Dassy Elrich, made allegations about being sexually assaulted by
their school principal, malch Leifa whilst at the ultra Orthodox

(01:09):
Jewish school called a Das Israel School. Just days after
the allegation came to light, Malchallifa fled back to Israel
with her family. That led to a thirteen year legal
battle to get Malcha Leifer extradited back to Australia to
face twenty nine charges relating to the sexual abuse of
Nicole and the sisters. There was a seven week trial

(01:30):
in August twenty twenty three where Malcal Leifer was convicted
of eighteen counts relating to the sexual abuse of Nicole's
two sisters, but was clear of the charges relating to herself.
We talked about the impact that this horrendous situation had
on Nicole. It was a deeply personal and troubling story,
but one I think is important to talk about. Before

(01:52):
we listened to this conversation, I need to reiterate that
Malchal Leifer was found not guilty of charges relating to
our guests Nicole Meyer. So in the eyes of the law,
these offenses were not proven. We need to acknowledge and
accept that. But if we're going to put our trust
in the court's decisions, let's also accept Malcolifho was found

(02:13):
guilty of eighteen counts of sexually abusing the Coles sisters
and was sentenced to fifteen years imprisonment. Nicole Meyer, welcome
to our Catch Killers. Thank you well, look, thank you
for coming in and talking about what's occurred to yourself
and your sisters. It must be difficult to talk about,

(02:34):
but I think it's important that people like yourself talk
about what happened.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
It has been difficult initially, but now I find it
actually healing and I hope validating and supporting for any
other survivor that actually tunes in and listens.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, we've had we've had previous victims and in my
time in the police, victims of sexual assault or survivors
of sexual assault that some people refer to it as.
I think there is strength in people speaking out because
quite often there's victim blame, the victims blame themselves for
whatever bizarre reason that, oh, this has happened to me.

(03:10):
But the more people that speak about that, I think
it makes people more comfortable that you are a victim
and it's nothing to do with the person that's been assaulted.
That's a person that's created that.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
Environment, absolutely, and I think it also removes the shame.
There is so much shame when it comes to being
abused and not being able to say your story or
feeling too ashamed is a difficult one. So being able
to speak out give strength to others as well that
they don't have to stay quiet and don't have to
feel that shame.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, talk me through the shame. Why the shame? Where
do you think that comes from?

Speaker 2 (03:42):
I think many victims survivors sometimes feel that the abuses
their fault or why they didn't say no, or why
they couldn't stop it, or why they didn't walk away.
So there's a lot of shame associated with our self
blame and our self criticism and even myself. I reflect
back and I think where was my head in those years?
But when someone has such control over you, like Marc
life I did over me, there was no options of no,

(04:04):
and that was just one fact of why I couldn't
say no. So the shame is associated with could I
have done something different to stop it? Or why was
I chosen to be a victim? Or did I somehow
ask for it? Not really, but did I do something
that made that person think I was an easy target?

Speaker 1 (04:22):
That's the insidious nature of a crime where the perpetrator
is grooming people too isn't it absolutely creating that doubt,
and that's where the nature of the crime and it
continues on that guilt that's attached to the victims because
of the way they've been groomed.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yes, grooming is just the very beginning of the whole
abuse cycle. Unfortunately, and particularly with Markolaeifer. She was a woman,
and she was nurturing, and she was kind and she
was caring. So it wasn't just her coming in and
taking advantage. It was a slow build up of crossing
boundaries that I didn't even know were there until the

(05:00):
abuse started, and it all was disguised under care, love
and nurturing, which I was severely lucky from home, so
I was appreciative of that care, attention, love that she
was so freely giving to myself and others.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
It adds to the confusion, doesn't it. It adds to
the confusion of what's occurred to you. The matter itself
attracted the such an intense interest from the community, the
public and also the media. Did you feel that that
pressure of your life has almost become very public?

Speaker 2 (05:35):
I think when I slipped into becoming a public figure,
I remember that moment quite well because I felt anonymous.
I was still working in the school where I was abused.
I went and gave a police statement, and a week
later I took a week off, and a week later
I went back and continued teaching as if I didn't
do it, teaching in the very same building I was
abused in. So I was very private, so I thought

(05:56):
so when I became more public and I stepped out
with my story, all of a sudden people knew. But
at the same time, I think I grew stronger and
stronger as it became bigger, and I realized I'm fighting
for a story that's not just mine, but on behalf
of so many survivors and being a voice for so
many that it didn't matter anymore. And also the media

(06:18):
really helped us along the way, so we felt encouraged
by their support as well. We created some really good
relationships with some of them.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Okay, well, that's a good way to navigate yourself through
a very difficult situation. I'm thinking the attention that the
media in the public, or the fascination that the people
had in the actual case, was the perpetrator was a female,
because that's not the perception that we hear sexual abuse,
sexual assault. It's quite often linked to the man being

(06:49):
the perpetrator. In your case, it was a female. Do
you think that made a difference.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
I think he opened the minds of so many that
may have not realized that a woman can be a
perpetrator in that way to that, and I think since
then I've become aware of quite a few female perpetrators,
but it felt like Malcholifel was one of the first,
and maybe because it was so publicized because of the extradition,
but it just I think he opened the minds of
many Australians and really around the world around female perpetrators

(07:15):
being right up there.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
Tell me a little bit about your upbringing.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
I was born first child in Australia. My parents immigrated
before I was born, from England, and I was born
after eight years of my parents not having any children,
so I was almost like the oldest of the second
lot of children to two older siblings. Four siblings two
years consecutively each below me. We had a very strictly

(07:42):
controlled upbringing. There's a version of, like I guess, being
strict and insulated because of the religion, but then there
was also the abuse on top of that. So unfortunately
my parents were primarily my mother, very abusive to an
extent that is extremely severe, and that is probably what

(08:04):
is most difficult to talk about because I feel that
many don't have the capacity to understand the severity of
the abuse that we grew up with. And there's been
times where sharing something has been met with this belief
and that couldn't be possible. While no one could, no
mother could be like that. But that was our experience
growing up, and it was very hidden. No one knew

(08:25):
we turned up to school looking well dressed, and even
if it wasn't in trend, so to speak, but we
had the clothing. We had food, at least some of
the time. There were many times we didn't have food
for either punishment or just there wasn't and people could
not see that we had bruises, or we stayed home
from school or left home school early to go home

(08:45):
and clean. It wasn't obvious, It wasn't extremely obvious to
someone who wouldn't know to look out for signs of
what a child from an abuse home could look like.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
It's a horrible situation that find yourself in, like a
childhood that should be support, nourishing, and to have that
I know when we spoke the other day, you said
it was difficult to talk about. There's a couple of
things that I picked up in the judge's sentencing comments
when he talked about the upbringing of yourself and your

(09:14):
two sisters. Comments are about the treatment that you find.
For me to read those out, okay. This is from
a Judge Gamble at the County Court of Victoria in
the reasons for sentencing and the complainants, and this is
from the Sensing report. The complainants were raised in an

(09:36):
ultra Orthodox Jewish family. They had other siblings, including older
sisters and younger brothers the complaints. The complaints were subjected
to a very difficult upbringing due to a cruel and
unpredictable way their mother behaved towards them. Each was mistreated
and witnessed the mistreatment of their siblings. Their mother neglected
and abused her children regularly, both physically and emotionally. She

(09:58):
also threatened them. The physical abuse included slaps, kicks, pinching,
as well as the use of objects, including straps. This
caused bruising in other marks. The complaints were expected to
do the housework and mistreat that if it was not
done perfectly and to their mother's liking. On occasions, she
would lock one or more of the children in the

(10:19):
dark cupboard, sometimes for lengthy periods. On other occasions, she
would tell one of the children that they were discarded
and no longer part of the family, and then get
her husband to drive that child to a park and
leave them there alone for a significant period. Food was
often withheld as a form of punishment and control for
each complaint, feeling hungry as an enduring childhood memory. On

(10:40):
any view, it was a miserable home life for the
complainants who were starved of love and affection and left
in a perpetual state of fear and confusion. It's pretty heavy. Yes, yeah,
that must have been part of the evidence that came
out that came out in the trial.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
It did because it explained some context as to why
we were, I guess desperate for some love and attention.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah. Yeah. And in my experience as a police officer
and from people that sat in the seat you're sitting
in now, it's apparent to me that perpetrators look for
people like yourself and your sisters that were in a
difficult environment, and that makes them easier to groom. Would

(11:24):
you agree with that perception.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yes, I think there's also a part of that could
be obedient and listening to adults, which I think any
child will go through, regardless of their upbringing, that you
always listen to adults. So there's that. But definitely, Markolfers
saw and very quickly understood that our home life was
far from perfect and realized that if she gave us food, love, care, yeah,

(11:48):
then she had us.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
So the school, Can you tell me a little bit
about the school and the community, because a lot of
people don't understand the ultra orthodox way that you were
brought up or the environment that you grew up, and
can you explain that a bit to us.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
I'll try and explain that shortly. I would say it's
an insular community with not much influence from the external world.
What each home does will be according to the level
that they agree on. So there'll be some families that
will go to the public library. There'll be a lot
of families that don't. For example, when I grew up,
we were so strictly brought up we couldn't even have

(12:25):
a cold catalog allowed into our home, so that's how
insulated we were. There'll be families that won't have any
idea of the sport or what's going on in the
external world surrounding them, and there'll be others that do.
So it's just it's mostly a very insulated community with
our own kosher shops and butcher and even hairdressers and
services naiol salons, any of that kind of stuff you need.

(12:46):
Does not mean you cannot get services elsewhere, but you
would support the people in your community first if you can.
Boys and girls are kept strictly segregated, and the modesty
is a huge component of all of it. And in
saying that, then the girls will be dressed very modestly
from the age of three and up, and there is
no male interaction other than your family members at all

(13:10):
until you are in the dating or getting ready to
be engaged from birth pretty much.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
So in that insular environment that you're living in, that's
the community, but also the school, so it wasn't sort
of you're living in an environment at home, but going
to school and getting a more worldly view or a
wider view of what goes on. The school adopted that
approach too, so you and your sisters were very insulated

(13:36):
from what was going on.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
Absolutely, it was my whole life was by home, my school,
my synagogue, or interrelated or connected all the same people
and nothing beyond that.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, that played in and again I picked up some
comments from the judges sensing report that played into your
naivety in regards to sexual matters as well, because of
the insular world that you were living in.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
Absolutely, there was no sex education in our schools whatsoever.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
So that would I would imagine when the offenses started occurring,
that would have caused confusion because you wouldn't have had
much understanding what was going on.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
I had absolutely no idea what was Markolova's intentions or
what was happening. That's even before the dissociation stepped in.
Even just her putting her hand on my thigh or
my back, I would have not known that was a
red flag and that was her testing the boundaries to
see what my response would be. Yeah, I just frozen,
didn't say anything, didn't do anything, didn't understand anything.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
It's so understandable when you describe in the environment in
which you grew up and how nagive you were, it
must have been so confusing for Yeah, the judge made
a comment and I'll refer to that because it was
a seven week trial and obviously delved very deeply into
all the issues relating to the offenses. Due to the ultra

(15:02):
orthodox upbringings, that complaints remained ignorant in sexual matters until
shortly before they got married. They received no form of
sexual education, either at home or at school. They had
no understanding of human anatomy, puberty, or sexual relations, and
didn't even know the words ascribed for intimate parts of
the body. And from a very early age they were
taught the girls and women must dress very modestly and

(15:24):
not reveal or discuss their bodies. The complainants ignorance in
sexual matters continued well into their late teenage years until
shortly before they got married. So why these offenses were
occurring against yourself and your sisters? You were ignorant to
what was going on? Absolutely, did you talk amongst yourselves?

(15:47):
Did No?

Speaker 2 (15:49):
There was one incident where there was a school camp
and my sister slept in the same room she visited
just for one night. I was there as a young teacher,
and she Michaelafe thought she was sleeping and she abused
me in the bed that I was sharing with her
while my sister was on the single bed, and that's
how my sister found out I was being abused. The
next morning, I gave her a look, just a look,

(16:10):
nothing else, and I went to find her something she
needed because she didn't bring all her stuff with her,
so I went to ask some other people for some stuff.
And I didn't want her to be left alone with
Markllifer and Machaelifa kicked me out the room and then
went into the bathroom where she was showering.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
Right, how did you feel as the older sister.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
At that moment, which is a very visual memory for me,
I felt awful because I did not want even if
I had no words, I just did not want Michael Life.
I learned with my sister, and that was my understanding
that Michael Life was abusing her, okay, and that was it.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
Horrible, horrible situation. This went on for a number of years.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
So when Marchalife entered my life, I was fifteen and
a half years old in year ten. What the courts
did not get to hear was that she continued to
abuse me post me getting married and being pregnant and
first child. And that is something that I'm not ashamed
anymore to share because even though I know that the
prosecution and potentially the defense made that decision based on

(17:08):
what the general understanding of abuse is, it felt at
the time extremely invalidating to me because the abuse didn't
stop when I was engaged. It continued. And what stopped
me from allowing her to abuse me the way that
she was to the extent that she was was her
lying herself down on me when I was pregnant, and
my naivety even then was thinking that her in my

(17:31):
mind fat, which was not a nice word to use,
so her large body was going to squash my baby.
And that is what instinctively did not allow me to
be in the same room with her again, to be
able to be in that position, not that the abuse stopped,
but that she was not able to lie full length
on top of me like that again. And that is
a very significant moment because I still didn't have words,

(17:54):
I still was extremely naive, but the protection of my
child is what allowed me to make sure that there
was some protection from the full amount of the abuse.
Then when she left in two thousand and eight, it
was simply because my sister was incredibly brave overseas, living
in Israel alone and disclosed to a social worker there.

(18:15):
That social worker could not believe that it was Markalalifa
because she knew she used to live in Australia herself
as well.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
Right then she knew her.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
She knew Markalifa personally, very personally. She called me to
confirm and I said yes, because I am too. And
that was And there's a bit of not quite remembering
properly whether Dussy my sister called me first and said,
you know, I'mah's going to call you or not. Both
of us don't remember the same exact what happened then,
but it was a shock. I went to school and

(18:44):
it felt like someone died. She had packed up and
gone in the middle of the night. But it didn't
happen straight away. It happened a couple days later, and
there was such a you could feel the tension in
the school. Markalifa was still there. They were trying to
figure out what to do. She was principal of the school.
And I don't remember who, and I wish I did
someone or somebody's prepared me that she might come to

(19:07):
my classroom and ask me what's going on. And that
is the last memory I have of her. She pulled
me out of class. It was the only time I've
ever seen her look scared, and she asked me, what's
going on. I stammered out some kind of reply that
I couldn't and I don't know, And that night she left.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Okay, I want to talk about how it came about
and how quickly and readily she left the country with
her with her family. So just breaking it down, your sister,
and let's put it in the timeframe. When were the
offenses occurring over what period of time?

Speaker 2 (19:38):
So she arrived two thousand and one all the way
to two thousand and eight, and I was there the
entire time that.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
She was, and what sort of age we're talking about
when the offenses started happening.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
So the grooming started for last fifteen and a half, right,
so year ten and I was the first class that
she groomed, and then any class below me all the
way until she left.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
Your sister's told the counselor over overseas made contact with you,
and then I would imagine mandatory reporting. She's reported. What
were the circumstances in which it came to life's attention
that there's been complaints made against her? How was that
dealt with.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
I'm not sure what happened at that time. I just
know that it was within days one, two, three days
and she was gone. It was not long after my
sister disclosed that she left the country. The exact intricacies.
I don't know if anyone's ever going to be fully
honest about what happened in that time.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, of just breaking down, like the timeline that I've
looked for, the documentation that's available that your sister made
the disclosure to a counselor in late February two thousand
and eight. School board stood lifeer down on the fifth
of March two thousand and eight, and at one twenty
am the very next morning, and her family called a

(20:57):
flight to Israel. Yes, okay, when you found out that
Life had left the country with her family shortly after
it's been brought to the attention of the school, how
did you feel.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
I wasn't ut a shock because being a victim of
hers but still being abused till the day she left,
there was no closure this is happening, and mentally preparing, okay,
I'm not going to see this person. So she was
there one day, she was not there the next. From

(21:29):
an external perspective. It's almost like I was in a
de realization kind of perspective. I'm watching hordes of teachers
and students go to the main lunch room or gathering
room and everyone's in a state of grief, and I'm like,
this happened because of me. This happened because of my sister.
This is something I had a part of, but no

(21:49):
one knows that, so I didn't know where to place myself.
It was the oddest feeling. And no one has ever
actually asked me that question. You are the first person
that has. And it was just there was shock, there
was shame, There was I wonder if anyone's going to
find out that it's me. My sisters weren't in the school.
They were like I was the only out of the
three of us still working in the school, and what

(22:12):
does that mean for my life?

Speaker 1 (22:13):
Like?

Speaker 2 (22:13):
What have I set in motion?

Speaker 1 (22:16):
It's a lot of pressure to carry because I would
imagine the rumors and people would be speculating on what's
happened here, and you've got the yeah, you understand what's happened.
It must have been very difficult.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
It was incredibly difficult. And the person who stepped up
to be interim principle actually took me to a therapist
one session and she I was so numb and associated
and disconnected. She took out cars and said, tell me
your feelings from these Teddy Bear cars. I said, I
don't do Teddy Bear cards. And that was the end
of the session and I never went to therapy again
until years later. But it was like, no feelings, no cars,

(22:51):
I'm in shock. Like back then, I wish I could
say to her, you're dealing with a victim who's just
had her life turned upside down, who has no idea
what's just happened, doesn't even understand the impact of the abuse,
and asking her to describe her feelings not happening okay.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
On teddy Bear cards. I like that police investigation was
not commenced until mid twenty eleven when your sister came
forward with and statements were taken around June twenty eleven.
So I'm just trying to understand this sister's report that
counselor has reached out to you. Obviously a formal report
has been that all the school has been notified, there's

(23:28):
been it's obviously been discussed, and then life has left
the school and went to Israel. It's not till a
couple of years after that it's reported to the police,
and who reported it to the police.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
So I just went back to normal work, having kids,
my sister living overseas, and other sister getting married, living
so it's just it was just this complete disconnect. It
was a shock. I remember being in the school and
everyone in an utter shock, and a and principles stepping
up and everyone in shock, like it was a huge
shock and displacement in the school. But then it just settled.

(24:07):
School had to keep going on, kids still had to
be taught, life still had to keep happening. And then
my sister, my youngest sister, they were youngest of us three,
gave a police statement. She was the first one. I
hadn't even entertained the idea of giving a police statement
when she did.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
Did you know that was an option for you? Did
that was and I'm looking at the world in which
you grew up, Did you say that as something that
you could have reached out to the place I.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
Always had a burning desire for justice to happen. When
that exactly started, I don't know, But no, I don't
know if I would have ever initiated going forward if
my sister hadn't first simply because shame, feared association, and
just not even knowing that is something I could do.
It was not even it was never given to me.

(24:54):
Like I've had people ask me directly, well, if they
knew that you were a victim right before she left,
why didn't you say anything? I said, No one came
to me and said, can we go to the police.
I'll support you, Let's tell them what happened. So that weekend,
no one gave me that option. I didn't even know
that was available.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
Okay, I understand what you're saying now sitting down talking
to you, But I also understand why people would be saying, well,
why didn't you go to the police. But that's why
I think the judges made such a point of talking
about your upbringing and the environment in which you grew
up with. But yeah, that to me makes the offense, well,
it doesn't make any more sinister. It's an evil offense

(25:30):
to start with. But clearly she was praying on exactly
the things that were holding you back from going to
the police. Is your ignorance, yes, and not understanding. Okay,
So your sisters decided to go to the police. Did
the police reach out to you or did you go
to the police?

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Could be they did. I don't think they did. Ellie
went first, Dust a couple months later, and finally, on
the day I found out I was young pregnant with
my youngest, I went to the police station and gave
my report. Yes, it was so traumatizing, and I think
any survivor victims vive, but that listens to this will understand.
I actually have no memory of giving my police statement.
I don't know who took it. I don't know what
I said. Obviously I've got the papers, but I don't

(26:09):
have any physical or visual memory at all of doing that.
That's how hard it was for me to step out
of my entire insulated, closed private life and do something
so extreme, even though it felt right to do. And
that was the first time in my life, even post
all my babies. I took a week off work for
mental health needs and I didn't even know I needed.
I just knew I couldn't go back to work for

(26:29):
a week and I did somehow to figure out what
I had done. Yeah, even when I was doing the
committal hearing before trial, the defense lawyer was saying did
you sign that statement? And I was like, well, my
signature was there, so I did. But I actually have
no memory of doing that, because that's how traumatizing giving
my first statement was.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
And that's not unusual for traumatized people, not at all
in situations like that. It's difficult to understand unless you've
been in that situation, but it's not unusual. Okay, so
we've got now a police investigation. Your sisters have come forward,
the three of you. Did you think there would be
How did you think you were going to get justice?

(27:08):
Given the fact she's gone back to Israel? Did they
explain the complexities of extraditions and all that type of thing.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
I smile Riley now because I was so trusting and
so innocent, and when I heard the words, sure, we'll
send a state mister Canberra, get the paperwork done, go
to Israel and get her, I was like, great, story over.
I had absolutely no idea, and I can still remember
the relief I felt. How simple that all was. How
long can it take it to get paper stamped in

(27:35):
camera and then just pick her up? It was like
one plus one And it did not happen like that
at all. It was the most. It I don't know
the word. It pulled me down so much in my
entire life was surrounding around dates, around who's the next
police contact that we can keep in contact with, because
it changed a couple of times over the years. Who's

(27:58):
ignoring us or giving us any update? What's happening, what's
happening in Israel? Why is there complete silence? It was
three years of utter waiting and silence and hopelessness, and
it's never going to happen. But we didn't understand why
because we didn't have enough information happening, what was going.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
On, the complexities of trying to organize this. We'll talk
about the extradition and how long it took, but before
we do, can we just break down. Can you explain
to people that what actually happened to you we've talked
about in a general sense, but the grooming started and
that life would take you the locations where you're on

(28:39):
your own, you'd go to a place on a Sunday
for extra tutoring or schooling. Can you explain the pattern
that she created that allowed her to commit those offenses
against you and what it actually involved.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
Recently, through my healing journey, I've actually thought I could
write a book on the seven years that I with
Marko Loefer because it is so extensive, and the coercive
control and the impact and the control she had in
every single area of my life is extremely difficult to
understand unless it's really fully understood. So she entered my

(29:15):
life when I was in year ten. She started immediately
that year already crossing boundaries like no teacher ever put
their hands on the students shoulders to push them down
the corridor. No teacher ever touched a student full stop.
It just wasn't in our school female and we didn't
have male teachers. It just wasn't. So she already with everyone,
showed that she was that kind of touchy, feely person, caring, smiling, chaotic,

(29:38):
but she was just everywhere and anywhere, interested in everyone,
very quickly made favorites, and those favorites shifted and changed
over time, and everyone knew who her favorites were. Pulled
kids out of class to ask them to do errands
or to get little jobs, or help them with the
news letter or all that kind of stuff. Then we
moved to them back to the main building with the
rest of the school, and she was still the teacher,

(30:00):
and she would have this little office between our classroom
and she would just like be on the phone and
just like keep an eye out. You just somehow knew
that her eyes were always everywhere, and if she wanted you,
it doesn't matter where you were in the school, she
would send someone to find you and bring you to her.
So you were never quite free of her. And then
she became principal of the actual school, so that was
a whole messy fiasco where she literally kicked off the

(30:21):
other principle and proved that she was better to do
that job. And once she became principal of the school,
there was no stopping her. I went through year twelve,
and that's when there was serious abuse happening already, and
she was just everyone's favorite. Like she groomed a community.
She groomed the teachers, she groomed all the students. It
was missus life for this and missus life for that.

(30:43):
There will always be a couple that said, oh no,
they thought she wasn't so great, and I can understand that,
But for everyone else, I would say she groomed majority
of the community with her actions and behaviors where she
was her visibility was always there with all the functions
and events that were happening. And I was definitely one
of her favorites and should pull me out of class,
she would lock her door, she would pull down the blinds,

(31:03):
and then she would abuse for an hour and then
send back the class. She would be red faced. I'd
be red faced, and no one blinked because you wouldn't
even for a second think that's what she's doing. So
and it wasn't just me, it was allegedly many other
students as well. And it's kind of you got to
know which students she took privately, because you just notice
if you're one, you notice who else is being pulled in.

(31:26):
And then I went to first year teaching. She was very,
very proud. She has six girls going from year twelve
right into the school the next year. This is the
product of why she's become head of the school. It
was a huge moment for her. We took over the
school three four, five, six, seven eight. We were like
amazing powerhouses of teachers. We had teacher training. We taught
the Jewish studies, so we weren't qualified to these general studies.
They had the qualified teachers for that, but we did

(31:48):
a really good job. I mean I loved teaching. I
was passionate, and I loved every minute of it. I
had this life that I loved of teaching, and I
respected her knowledge and everything. And this is what was
brought up to me in court. Here you are writing
Marc Life, I thank you letters for helping you, and
at the same time you're saying you're being abused. And
I was like, that was two different lives. The abuse
was a whole life of its own that was happening,

(32:09):
completely disconnected from that. I was giving my everything to
my job, and then even disconnected to that the abuse
that was going on at home. It was like I
was my whole life was my teaching, and she completely
invaded every part of that. And the big shame of
the whole case is that no one, all the witnesses
in the school, no one came forward and said I
saw this or I saw that, even retrospectively. And that's

(32:32):
what is very deeply hurtful and upsetting, because there were
witnesses that didn't know they were witnesses at the time,
but over the years had so many opportunities to come
forward and say, yes, we saw this, and I saw
Nicole being pulled out of class by macaul Life as
soon as the bell rang when her class finished, And
that did happen. And I saw this person in camp
in a room with her alone. I saw that person.

(32:53):
There were witnesses that did see things, even if they
didn't quite know what they were seeing at the time.
And then I taught year one of teaching, absolutely loved it.
Year two, in the second year of teaching, I actually
got engaged. And that I will say this because I
want to explain the level of her control. I got
engaged to the son of the person she kicked off

(33:14):
the principle right. She broke that engagement.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
She was the cause.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yes, she managed to convince my mother that he's not
appropriate for X y Z. She even pulled in another
prestigious woman who happened to be visiting from overseas and
helping with the school at that time, got her to
sit down and talk to me. I was given a
phone and told call the boy and tell them you're
not getting married in five weeks.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
It's horrible control.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
That is the level. And I was given a whole
paper of all the sins he did, poor thing that
he didn't do. There were no sins, and I had
to read that to him and that was it.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
I'm speculating here, but a motive for that, whether it's
jealousy or whether she's concerned that someone that she's made
an enemy to and things might pass between you and
him and it might lead to her being discovered. Correct,
So she's moving all these things around just to cover
up her actions. And just take you back to a
couple of things you said there where people had seen

(34:11):
things or yeah, you both go of students taken out
of out of class, and then an office and comes
out red face, and the principal's red faced. These are
red flags, aren't they? These should be warning signs. And
I think the days are gone where people can just say, oh, well,
you know, I wasn't sure, so I didn't report that.
What do you say to those people that have seen that,

(34:33):
that suspect something that's going on that didn't speak out.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
I will say to anyone there isn't any educational position
or anywhere. Really, if you sent something, go and talk
to someone about it. Don't hold it to yourself, because
the damage that you can be causing by your silence
is more harmful than you can imagine red flags are
they're nonverbal. They do happen, and we see with abuse
cases coming out like the childcare centers, how many people

(34:58):
have said, oh, they saw this or they wrote this,
said this. We do as humans, we do notice things.
Sometimes we don't, but when we do act on it.
Talk to someone, talk to your superior, talk to a friend,
and ask advice and then decide together what's the best
course of action. But don't don't just keep it to yourself,
because that is what is most damaging.

Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yeah, the role that she created and the way that
you've described her, she sunds like a larger than life character.
And I'm just it's annoying me for of it because
I can imagine the type of person you're talking about,
the chaotic, and she's always touchy, handy, handy on kids.
But that's just her. That's the way they cover their actions,

(35:37):
isn't it.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
Yes, And she ran the school so chaotically, but somehow
it worked. She would literally be giving me material right
before lesson that she asked me to substitute five minutes
before and then race into class and teach, and then
she'd be working out timetables middle of the night and call
me and ask her to help with that, or writing
news letters, or ask me to help with policy and
the legal stuff that she had to fill out or
the admin stuff, and I would help her with that.
So I was really her, I would say, her assistant

(35:59):
in a way, with the amount of work and help
that I did for her in every possible way. But
that was also her involvement in my life in every
possible way.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
You use the word coersive, and there's legislation that's come
into a lot of states around the country with relationships,
where people are in relationships and the need for that
coercive control and the police to have those powers. What
you're describing there sort of ticks of boxes. It's coercive control.
It's not in a domestic relationship, but it's coercive control
in the environment you were working. Would you agree with

(36:30):
that absolutely?

Speaker 2 (36:31):
Because there was no decision and no movement that I
made without her saying it was okay or without knowing
she would have an opinion about it. After and even
when I got married, there was a time she couldn't
get hold of me on my phone. She stalked me
to find where I was where she thought I was.
Now I happened to be somewhere private that I didn't
want her to know where I was that moment, and

(36:52):
she came careening around the corner with someone that drove
another victim of hers. And as I walked out that
building she saw where I was, she was satisfied have
not had my phone not available to be telling her
where I was.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
Did you ever have any conversations with her about, yeah,
I'm uncomfortable with this or was that just sort of
it was an area you just couldn't go.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
Absolutely none, It was no. There was no possibility to
say no one time in the whole seven years that
I knew her. I had a little bit of backbone.
I wanted to go and work somewhere else other than
the squl was working in to earn more money, to
have an opportunity to work in a different Jewish school.
She shut that down so fast, and then to punish me,

(37:34):
she took away a secretarial job that I did have
in the school was working in and gave it to
some new person that had come in from overseas as
well to curry favor because her father was on the board.
So it was all, you know, complex in that way,
and I just knew I won't even try and cross
her because that was the financial impact of if I did.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
How did she have the standing within the school? Like
she came over what you did? You say? She came
without one to teach and then she was there until
two thousand and light and rose to be the principal
of the school. What was her backstory before she came
across to the school.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
She was teaching before she came to Australia. She had
a lot of knowledge. She probably had some degrees and
stuff that she did when she finished school. And she
was very religious. So she looked the part, yeah, but
she definitely wasn't the part at all. So she looked
like someone that had good values, good attributes, and was

(38:32):
a respectful person of the faith and the religion and
would inspire, would inspire the students under her care to
be more connected to God and religion through there, through
her actions and the things that she's doing with them.
The learning programs and they were all all those programs
were amazing. It's just it was all covering up as
well a lot of what she was trying to get
away with underneath, because deeply underneath she was evil. She
was not what she was portraying to the community and

(38:54):
the school. So she earned the respect by her actions
and her knowledge and her wisdom in the Jewish religion
and all the textual stuff that she knew that in
everything else.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
Hypocrisy of it too, Yes, saying that this is the
values on following them being completely opposite. Is there any
suggestion that I'm speculating here, but any suggestion that there
was any rumors about her or any knowledge of this
type of behavior before she came to Australia.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
Only after stuff came out here. Yes, some of her
former alleged victims overseas did contact a reporter, but the
statue of limitations were over, so it wasn't something they
were willing to come forward because it was of course,
it's an uproot upheopal to their lives, and if they
can't do anything with information, they don't just want to
give their story. Yeah, but they did affirm that that
was the case.

Speaker 1 (39:44):
Okay, your sisters, the offenses that occurred against your sisters
and the type of grooming, can you talk about your
comfortable just talking about what they went through as well.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
So I'm not entirely sure because even though we are
allowed to read each other statement now and we have
seen the charges that came out. That's pretty much all
that I know. We actually haven't sat down together because
there was so much going on through the trial, which
was nine weeks, including deliberation, we haven't had time to
sit together and actually deep brief and that's something that
we might be able to have the strength or the

(40:17):
energy to do one day. But I do know that
whatever abuse happened to me happened to them and allegedly
to many others.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
I would imagine, and this would have made it difficult
that when the matters were reported to the police, you
would have been instructed not to talk to each other
about the offenses in protect the potential contamination the evidence.
From an emotional point of view about talking about the evidence,
you must have been aware that your sisters had made

(40:45):
complaints as well. How difficult was again being isolated from
being able to speak people close to your sisters that
have been through similar experiences.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
I think the shame was so great at that time,
and the disconnect from the actual abuse. It was like
dundusted gave the statement, Okay, I needed to come back.
It wasn't. We grew closer and closer over the years,
but Lofa wasn't the center of that. Our campaigning made
us absolutely impossibly close because we were so closely working
together to bring her back. But we knew, like you said,

(41:17):
and we all knew from very early on, that the
topic of the abuse and any ax or anything like
that could never be discussed. So literally was only what
we witnessed of each other during those years. So my
younger sister witnessed my second sister being taken to a
different room, and like I said, the camp situation and
things like that.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
The process for the extradition. How when you've made the
report to the police. I know the people when they
report to the police quite often they think, well that's
the first step and I'm going to get justice. You
touched on it a little bit earlier on. You had
no idea how long the process would take. Tell us
through what was going through in your life while that

(41:55):
was going on, and the type of information you were receiving,
Because it was you said three years, but by the
time time she came back to Australia it was something
like twelve years.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Yes, yes, it was three years until her first arrest.

Speaker 1 (42:07):
Okay, So the process was warrants had to be taken
out and she got arrested. Over in Israel, you would
have been notified of that.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
So I was working in a new school, So I
actually had left the school that I was abused in
and went to work in a new school. And it
was just early on in that year that all of
a sudden, I got this phone call from a reporter
that Markel Life was arrested. And my sisters were holidaying
away and they weren't even in Melbourne, and I'm frantically
trying to call them and say, guys, Michael Life has
been arrested.

Speaker 1 (42:35):
Like this.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
It was huge. It gave me. It was such a shock,
but it was also like, why did it happen? No,
no one warned us, Like the paper suddenly land on
someone's desk and they're like, oh right, we're going to
go and arrest her. Was it in relation to the
fact that there was some civil cases going on? So
suddenly it sparked a memory, Oh okay, we should go
and arrest her. Like I still don't know what caused
that first arrest, And then we had some little bit
of contact from the prosecutors there in Israel, but very

(42:57):
shortly after she was arrested in charge and all that,
she was released on bail. And that was the one
mistake that the prosecution team admits to because they weren't
in contact with us enough yet to know that we
would not want that to happen, that we know what
she's like, and that if she escaped Australia, she's definitely
going to try and escape anything there to come back.

(43:17):
And they released her on bail, and that was a
huge pivotal moment.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
And did you feel like you've been let down with that? Like,
when you've come out, you've done the statement, you're doing
everything that, yeah, we say you should do in a
situation like that, did you feel like the system had
let you down?

Speaker 2 (43:36):
I didn't know enough and my sisters didn't either at
that time to still not trust in the system. Okay,
she's on bail, she'll go to her house, she won't
be allowed to leave, she'll turn up the court to
the next court date and she will have to say
that she is or isn't you know, able to come
to Australia. There was no indication that this still would
not work and she would be back within six months, right,

(43:56):
So that's.

Speaker 1 (43:57):
The expectation you had yes, even though she had bailed
to granted yes, So why did it takes so long?

Speaker 2 (44:04):
That's when the game started.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
Once she got bailed, there were probably around seventy or
more court hearings around her mental fitness to stand trial,
and even a judge over there, which is mind boggling.
Reported like. He stated that marchal Lifer checks herself into
a psych word the day before court hearing and checks
herself out the day after. He stated that at one

(44:31):
point we had the prosecution team saying we will go
to hospital with the court to her. That didn't happen,
and then it was just a game of psychiatrists after
psychiatrist saying that she's not mentally well to stand trial. Now,
if she's not mentally fit, she can't be extradited and
that is their decision to make. So then that's where
my sisters and I and my sister does started first
to campaign and starts speaking to leaders in Australia and saying,

(44:54):
hang on, what's happening here. We've got to start putting
pressure up because if we don't, she's going to keep
playing the syste again, not knowing how extensive we would
have to fight, and how big the fight would be
to actually bring her back.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
I'm just I'm sitting here is done because I'm hearing
your story, but what you've been through and then the
battles break down, the fight. I think I've got a
quote here from the ABC about the extradition That was
from a Liberal MP, mister south Southwick, and this is

(45:32):
twenty seventeen, so this is years down the track. In
twenty seventeen, the Liberal MP bought a petition with seventeen
thousand signatures calling for the extradition of life to israel politicians.
But mister Southwick said members of the community from all
sides of politics are joined together to support the sisters.

(45:52):
Doesn't matter who you are and where you come from.
When you see the pain and suffering that innocent women
have had to go through from a purpose like Malco Lifer,
then you do everything possible you can to bring that
person to justice. It was became political, you had to
like signatures. I'm asking you, from a personal point of view,

(46:15):
how did that affect you personally.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
We were on a roller coaster that was going so
fast and when it dipped, it was so painful, But
then it went so fast up again. Every single core hearing.
We had people in Israel in the courts live texting us.
We had a whole group chat of reporters and everyone
that was present telling us what's going on, because of
course it was all in a different language that we
couldn't even understand even if we could log in, which

(46:38):
we couldn't most of the time, and so we would
need translators. And my sisters and I just sat down
and I was two thousand and seventeen. I stopped working
for the first time in my life. I had been
working from eighteen years old, post all my pregnancies, right
back to work right after. I didn't have any long
maternity leave, and I stopped working in twenty seventeen to

(46:59):
be able to campaign and advocate and having gone back
to teaching since then. And it was a huge moment,
but I don't even understand how big that was. And
I stepped out, and that's when I kind of became
public and joined my sisters and we are like, we
are going to actually go overseas from our own resources,
our own limited money. No one funded us, no one
told us what to do. We didn't have a publicist.

(47:20):
Everything was completely our own organizing, and we hopped on
a plane and went to Israel October twenty seventeen or November,
and we started. We went to rape crisis centers, We
went to the Knesseta, and we met with politicians who
didn't want to talk to us because it's an uncomfortable topic,
but we imposed and made sure they did, and we
had someone in there helping us to get into some politicians.

(47:42):
We attended events. There was some big event happening then
between Autralia and Israel, so we attended that. We side
kind of met the Prime Minister at the time. We
just did everything possible for two entire weeks, every day
all day, meeting people to raise awareness about this story.
We met the prosecution team and we said to them,

(48:03):
we think there's something more going on. There's some corruption happening,
something's happening in this case. It's not adding up why
she's not coming back. And the prosecutor looked at us
and he said, if something's happening, like if someone's corrupt,
I'll eat my hat. And then a year later when
we went and by then we all found out that
the Health Minister was involved in asking the psychiatrist to

(48:25):
doctor her her mental health certificates. He looked at us
and he's like, I can't believe that happened. I think
to myself, if I was in a position of power
and I was asked to help someone like that, I
couldn't do it. It would go against my whole moral compass.
Like he was, we could see how visibly shocked he
was that within a year we had because we went

(48:47):
back on our second campaign trip a year later, and
he understood that there was corruption going on, that there
was something much prosecu.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
The prosecutor felt forces.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
Well, we felt it, we raised it. They didn't want
to believe it. Then when we came a year later,
By then the Litzmann story had broken out, and we
found out that the Health Minister had been pressuring the
psychiatrists who were treating Markolifa to say she was mentally
unfit based on their own sort of little dirt story
there that was happening, And the psychiatrist said that she

(49:18):
was unfit and she wasn't.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
How frustrating was that for you guys?

Speaker 2 (49:25):
It was validating because we knew who we were talking to,
But at the same time, it was horrible how gout
someone in power, someone that we met the year before,
who claimed he had no knowledge of what was going
on with Marcarl Liifa. We met him in parliament, and
then we find out that somehow he's involved in the
corruption that's stopping her from coming back. I actually, and

(49:45):
I can talk about this now because I'm not doing it.
I was thinking of lodging a lawsuit against Slitzman because
I didn't feel that the way that the criminal courts
dealt with him with a slap on the wrist and
a little fine and you can't work anything.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
Moore, this was dealt with like it's come out publicly. Yes,
what you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Yes, he received charges. Some were dropped because I think
he pled. It was obstruction of whatever. I don't know
what exactly was titled. He had got a fine and
he was told he can't work in parliament for seven years.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
Okay, So that was and that was.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Finer compared to the incredible impact he had on myself
and my sisters, making the delay years longer than it
should have been because of his involvement and corruption which
is now proven.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
Well, I'll join in with you now that it's been
in court and it's being proven that's disgraceful. Yes, absolutely disgraceful.
And this is a person that you had met the
previous twelve months before, with all the false promises, and
I'm going to do this.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
Well, he didn't, he would do anything. He just said
he had no involvement in these kind of matters. He
really shut us down, but also made it seem like
he doesn't even know what we're talking about, which is
obviously not true.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
Okay, how did it guess disprove that she wasn't fit
to stand?

Speaker 2 (50:55):
Well, once the corruption came out and it hit national
news all over Israel, that propelled the story to the
highest level. I mean, look, that's second in comand you
can't actually you can't push that down when someone's that powerful,
that high up in government. Then my sisters and I
went decided we're actually going to keep going to court.

(51:15):
We're going to let this judge see us and look
at us in the face, and she cannot possibly see
the three of us sitting in the back of a corner.
So we did a third campaign trip. This time someone
stepped up and actually funded our tickets, which was amazing. Yeah,
that was incredible, But we still played accommodation and travel
on everything, and.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
That's taking time your life and my kids and.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Life and everything. I've got four children. And we sat
in the back of the courtroom and we looked at
that judge like, remember, you are dealing with victims here
who are sitting here watching you do justice, give justice
to the case. But it's for some reason, it seemed
like she had to just keep asking for more. And
then finally in early twenty twenty, right before COVID hit,

(51:57):
there was the most incredibly important court case. It was
when three psychiatrists, three who all said that she's fit
to stand trial, were going to be cross examined by
the defense, and there were some of them. Israel visiting
here and we met him for coffee. He used to
live in Australia and he came back, comes back twice
a year, and he said would you go? And I
looked at my sisters and I was like caught. My husband.
I was like, I'm going to this round three days

(52:18):
and my husband was like sure, because he's used to
this already. And I hopped on a plane. Tickets were
crazy cheap. We didn't know COVID was going to be
so bad, but it was like literally under fifteen hundred.
I hopped on a plane by myself, no sisters because
they weren't available at the time, and I went and
sat in court for two whole days in a language
I didn't fully understand, but because it's my story, I could,
and I listened to every single word that was said

(52:40):
and saw how those psychiatrists were put under the grill
by the two defense lawyers who we know who they were.
We met them over all the time, and they did
theatrics in the court room and they tried to discredit.
One of the psychiatrists was a little bit unwell. She
just wasn't feeling so good that morning, but she still gave,
you know, she still did a good job. And after
two whole days, I was like, Okay, that's it. We're
waiting for decision, and I went home. I was feeling

(53:02):
very heavy. It was actually very hard to be without
my sisters. Like I sat in the partment all day
so depressed, but not depressed because the pressed, but just
because it was so heavy and so everything was relying
on this. We had waited years till to this point,
to twenty twenty to hear what this decision's going to be.
It's been seventy five CORET hearings, and the next I
got home, spoke to my sisters, debriefed them and everything,

(53:24):
and within a couple months, I don't know the exact
days offhand, it came through that she's fit to be extradided.
And that was like the penny drop. That was like, oh,
my goodness, everything we fought for everything, it is still
for me personally, and I don't know about my sisters.
When I look at the picture of her on an
aeroplane going up those steps and landing on Australian soil,

(53:45):
that can literally still I am in shocked at that
picture because by that time a lot of people were thinking,
it's actually not going to happen, She's not going to
come back. They could see the battle we were fighting,
and they could see and we had more and more
support from the whole Australian community. But it just seemed
that we were fighting that impossible. Yeah, And then it

(54:05):
came through that she's fit to stand trial. The judge
could not swing it any other way. It was not
possible for some basically into it. But what a battle
for what you've been through and then have the battle
just to get to the court court matter, and I
do remember the image of her getting on the planet.
It's an iconic sort of photo, and you just, yeah,

(54:27):
it was.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
It was so powerful seeing that when you're not involved
in it, so I can only imagine what it felt
like for you. You mentioned seventy five court matters. Is
that how many? Yeah times it appeared at court.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's how many. And every single one we
were involved in, every single one, we had contact. Every
single one. We knew when it was a journed because
there was a Germans that happened many times. Every single
one we debriefed, We spoke to media before or after
we met with my sisters. I'll be on holiday like
summer for a couple of days away with my kids.
I'll drive back from Rye with my sister sitting in
her house together doing a court hearing. Didn't matter what

(55:00):
was going on in our lives. We dropped everything to
do this court hearing. And actually we had prosecution teams
in Israel and in Australia look at us in the
face and say, if you had not done what you
had done, she would not be back. Well, so to
have two teams saying that to us, we know that
what we did is what caused her to be able
to finally come back.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
Well, I was going to make the comment because I
see hard investigations that get results, and invariably it's not
the police, it's not the prosecutors. It's a family just driving,
just driving and pushing and not giving up. And where
did you did you know you had that type of
resilience or did that it just came out because of
the circumstances. Where where did you get that type of resilience?

(55:42):
Because I could imagine there would have been times there
where you just it's too hard. Why am I focusing
on that? And the focus on that it's time away
from your kids, your husband, your professional career.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
I think once I gave my statement and that was
such a huge step out of anything in my life
that I'd ever done adverse to the way I was
brought up and raised, there was this tiny flame of
the need for justice, and that just burned and got
bigger and bigger and bigger over the years. It never
ever went down for me personally, absolutely did not. The justice.

(56:17):
The thought of justice drove everything. Yeah, absolutely everything.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
I'm exhausted from you had delivered. That's just hearing the story.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
It was exhausting.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
I think I'm fascinated by the drive that victims have
got to get justice, and I fully understand it. But
full credit to you that you've got to that point.
We're going to take a break down because it's still
not over, because then this is just the start of it.
I often said in homicide or with investigations, it only
starts when you get to the court, and we haven't

(56:49):
even got to trial. This is just getting the person
to trial. But we'll talk about that, the impact that's
had on you, and of course the fact that at
the trial that the allegations that you made were she
was found not guilty for those how that impacted on you.
And we're going to discuss a lot of other things,
lessons that you've learned from here and messages that you

(57:11):
want to get out because I think it's such an
important story to talk about. As we said at the start,
that you know, let's learn from what's happened here, so
it makes it harder for these type of I was
going to say, so these offenses don't happen again. They
will happen again, but let's make it harder for them
to happen again, have a shell break, thank you, cheers

(57:42):
and