June 9, 2025 • 59 mins
Liz Hayes has interviewed serial killers, met murderers, reported from the front line of war zones and even took muffins to meet the Ku Klux Klan. The television journalist has faced some of the most terrifying people, but it was the death of her father that was the hardest story of her career.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life, the average person is never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes in the contact with crime is
left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into
this world. This is part two of my chat with
(00:48):
high profile investigative journalists Liza Hayes. In part one, we
got a sense of the life of a high profile
television presenter and a globe trotting journalists with sixty minutes.
In this part, but we took a deep dive into
some of the truly fascinating stories covered by Liz, including
her involvement in the hunt for theorists pedophile Dolly done,
(01:09):
what it was like in Camp x ray, where Australian
David Hicks was held, her sit down with survivors of
the Link Cafe and her meetings with serial killers. We
also talked about the death of Liz's father, which resulted
in her reporting on her most difficult story. Liz Hayes,
welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Nice to still be here.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I haven't kicked you out yet or you haven't stormed
out yet. Can I ask you a favorite? Could you
just say I am Liz Hayes.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well, you don't say I am Li Hayes. You say
I'm Liz ha Oh.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Okay, certainly, see you've correctly, You've corrected me. I'm Gary
jubilan Is Eye Catch Killers.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
How was that excellent?
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Thank you? Thank you?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Maybe you know it's there is an intonation that you
have to get right, Okay, get it just maybe in
front of the mirrors.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Okay, not with practice, this could be hello, Okay. Now,
in regards to interviews, when you're interviewing people, I've seen
your interview technique. You like to get people people relaxed
and then then you hit them with the hard questions.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Wow. Yeah, no, look I think everybody is at their
best when they don't feel you know, threatened, or if
they feel relaxed as comfortable as they can. I think
that's a that's a given. I think all all people
will respond no matter who they are, actually when they
feel you know, they're feeling reasonable about themselves or this
(02:42):
is you know, it's really hard to say to people
just relax when you've got about four cameras around them
and it's just you and whoever, and you know it's
quite dark everywhere else. But ultimately I just try to
engage them at a level where they feel it's okay,
and I say, look at you, this is all up
to you. You know, you know the answers I don't.
(03:06):
I'm asking the questions and.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
People they're very aware if you're talking to them and
if you're trying to nail them or you're giving revealing
a little bit about yourself making them feel relaxed, and then.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, I always look if it's if it's a bad guy,
as you would say, I don't give them anything. No,
I have every They know they know why they're there,
and that's part of the interviewing technique is to know
why you're there, what you're aiming to achieve what you're
hoping to get. What's this story about? So you pretty
(03:44):
much know what you are achieving or would like to achieve.
Your research is probably told you what the answers are.
But sometimes something totally different comes up, helps up, and
you obviously deal with that. But I quite like people
feeling like this is a moment for them, if that's
what the story is about. I don't have any qualms
(04:06):
in bowling up the appropriately difficult question. I don't like
I'm not a natural combative person, but I don't have
problems doing it if that's what's required.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
That's interesting you say that I found that I'd come
out of in the views where I've had to go
hard and I'd be drained because it takes that emotional energy.
But you don't feel good about yourself either.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Well, it's not you know, we don't live our lives
every time we go to the to the supermarket nailing
that pool girl about you know? Is that price right?
You know? No, it's not how we live our lives normally.
But when we're having to deal and reveal things are
(04:51):
and call people to account, then you have to there's
no way around that. I didn't. I never I guess
it's not my natural tactic. Go great today now, very jubilant.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
But you do. I see it in some journeys and
there's almost a smugglingness when they've when they've nailed nail
a person. I don't think that's the right way to go.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
And I think when it comes to television at least
I think the viewers can see and they will make
a decision also about you and the questions you ask
and how you ask them and if you know, if
you're not careful, they will have turned on you and
somehow rather like the Baddie weird, but it happens. So
you know, you have to have a fair minded approach
(05:38):
to those things. But if somebody is just out lying,
you have very little choice but to say.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
And go back and present and present the facts and
call them into account. Okay, you relax, Oh yeah, it's
all good. All right. Well, now I'm going to ask
you a question, and this is in my detailed research
about Liz Hayes. Reading the book your book, what I wrote,
(06:05):
it's come to my attention that you cohabitated with well
known TV presenter Richard Wilkinson. Yes, but in the do
you care to explain yourself?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, in the platonic sense I want to make And
that's one of the things I've had to say over
and over. Guess what. I did not go out with Richard.
We shared an apartment together. But yes, oh my gosh,
Actually we had a ball, had a great time. He
was he was just doing MTV, that was you know,
and he'd come out of a marriage. And we're in
(06:36):
the back of a limo going to a charity event
and he told me that, you know, his world had
fallen over and he didn't have anywhere to live. Do
you think he meant that? I set up and I
didn't even know. Yes, I can be by the way anyway.
I said, look, I've got a spare bedroom and a
spear bathroom actually, so if if you get stuck. He
(06:59):
arrived the next day. He was stuck anyway. But it
turned out to be a fabulous friendship, a great We
had a great time. And look, he's popular. He was
a very popular man. I have to say, I've had
a lot of had a lot of girlfriends.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
I have to say, we've never picked it.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
But I know and look to be fair to him
because if he hears this and thinks it's one side,
and he'll say he endured a few interesting characters on
my behalf as well.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So okay, well secret should stay secret. And yeah, we
talked in part one about the people's right for privacy
and I respect your right for privacy. Yes, we'll move on. Okay,
Well this is I catch skill as we jump from
one thing to another. But a crime that had an
impact on the nation, and I was actually involved in
(07:51):
it too, as doing the crime scene was the Link
Cafe siege and you had an opportunity or you did
interview the survivors are the hostages of that as a
collective group of people. I know that had an impact
on you. It took something out of you, or you've
felt the motion from what there. I've spoken to Luis
(08:13):
a Hope, an amazing woman, and what she endured I
know when I was in the crime so it had
some We went in straight after the incident had been
resolved and there was just a neariness about the place
and you could almost feel the fear in the in
the room. What was it like sitting down with the
hostages and speaking to them after they survived what they did?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Oh awful? It was pretty raw. It was eight of
them that I spoke to, and all of them individuals
different how they reacted to this incredible scenario where they've
been held hostage in a cafe in the CBD and
you know, they're gone in there for their morning coffee
(08:56):
and it doesn't end for another what sixteen hours or
something late that night, and it doesn't end. Well, well,
no it doesn't. Let's face it, No, ultimately it didn't.
So they allowed me in. They let me come into
that room, that cafe with them, which I thought was
incredibly generous of them. They gave me permission to understand
(09:20):
what it was like for them. And I think there
were times when I just I could see inside that
cafe when they were talking to me, and I did feel,
oh God, what would I do? I don't know what
I would do. And I felt terrible for those who
(09:41):
ran and felt guilt. I felt terrible for those who
were left behind and couldn't run. I felt you know,
it was just it was an incredible moment in time
where this story allowed me to understand what it must
be like to as best I could, to what that
(10:01):
situation must be like, you know, to be held against
your will and basically been they were of the opinion
this guy had a bomb. They were told that basically,
and then and to know that he's not there to
look after them. All their lives are on the line.
And I was totally moved by them, totally, you know,
(10:26):
those who were thinking about what to do, those who
were just trying to stay calm, those who were you know,
Louisa Hope's got a mum. Louisa's not able to run
that easily if in the end, you know, mum couldn't run,
so she had to decide not to run either. That's
(10:46):
the first time in that kind of scenario I've been
able to sit and listen to what that was like.
And it did. It really took me into a moment
in time which it stopped me and I thought, I
actually don't know what I would have done. I really
(11:07):
don't know what I would have done.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Terrifying, isn't it? What they did.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Feel their terror and I felt their their anguish. I
felt at all. Actually I felt really moved by it.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
And You've got an understanding too that people that ran
how they felt when someone died, of others that didn't run,
so many decisions to make, and who knows how you
would react in that situation.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Do you know how you would react because you have
some training and you have some know how. Yeah, I
come from a place of I've had some hostile environment training.
But you know, there's no way in the world I
would have been sure of any decision I was going
to make.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
No, there's things that I think in my mind and
until you've actually confronted with them, what could be done
or could couldn't be done. But yeah, I understood people
like that with no training, just as you said, for
a morning coffee. And I think that's what rocked everyone too.
It could have been any one of us, and it
(12:12):
literally was just you're in the wrong place at the
wrong time, and you're caught up in that. You also
spoke to the sniper police sniper, didn't you?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I did. Davidson, Yes, and he was terribly affected. And
I think one of the things that affected him from
what I could gather is terribly nice guy. By the way,
is he's watching it as a sniper and communications were difficult,
is how I would say it. But he felt and
(12:42):
he saw Tory executed. Tory Johnson, the cafe manager, was executed,
and he saw that, and he felt as though he'd
let him down. And I think that's the core of
what gives him that terrible PTSD that they have, including
the the and who went in, the head sniper entry team,
(13:05):
all of that plays out in your head, and I guess,
but I could see also from his perspective, and I
heard all the other arguments of whether he could have
really taken the shot, or whether it would have been accurate,
or you know, he shouldn't have been allowed his mind
to be worried about that. He did the best, he
caught all that. But as a human being, he's there,
(13:25):
he's he's in a position where he felt in his
heart he could do this, and then he sees this
terrible moment. I can understand. And yet he was highly trained.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, I know, but he would have known with his training,
and I can see the sense of responsibility with the
felt and different things. But yeah, the entry team that
went in too, like those guys, Yeah, they believed that
he had a bomb too, but they still went in.
And yeah, it was it was awakening for the city
(13:59):
in the regards think because it was so public. It
was just everything about it that just sort of okay,
this is the world's come to us now with that
type of situation.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
It was a moment where I think Australia literally changed.
It was like that kind of terrorism can happen here,
and that was what I viewed as terrorism.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Yeah, I think we've got to call it, call it
for what it is. And I think there was lessons
learned from the police of plast response and all that,
which is, if anything comes from it, I hope there's
some lessons lessons learned ful.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yes, And that's hard for everybody. It's really hard. I
don't profess to have a high moral ground or view
on any of that because I don't know except for
what we're all told. And even then I still can't
be sure other than to say what I am sure
is that, yes, everybody is better in terms of knowing
(14:51):
what should be done better.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah. Well, and it was a contained situation too, and
you could imagine if it was a mobile situation how
difficult that would be. But okay, where are we at now,
klu Klux Klan. Come on, I've never got to speak
to someone that's in the klu Klux Klan, but I'm
(15:13):
getting to speak to someone that's spoken to someone that's
in the klu Klux Klan.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
That was a very weird business. I have to say.
We were going to speak to the ku Klux Klan,
which is even hard to say, because the clan was
of the opinion that Donald Trump was giving them a
wink and a nod, that what they believed was what
he might have believed, because he wouldn't come out and
you know and say that they were a racist, irresponsible
(15:41):
group of haters. But they were of the opinion that,
so you know, he was on their side. So off
we went, and we went to this particular place which
was a clan country and the clan family. They had
this massive property where they had, you know, a conference
(16:02):
center and a bit of schooling and all on, yes
and where you can come and learn a whole lot more.
That had a servenir shop.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
I'd have to visit there.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I don't think. I didn't see any pillow cases or
anything like that, but they had anyway, they and they
had a television studio and they broadcast twice a day,
and that had big billboards on the side of the road.
And look, what can I say, It's not my world
(16:38):
by long shot, and trying to get.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Into it to clarify that, but.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Trying to get into their heads about why you feel this,
Why are you so threatened by people who aren't white?
What is the problem here? What, what's what's going on?
And there's no good answer to that.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Did you get a sense of who they were, like,
were coming from?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
They were generation of people they come from usually well
a long line of you know clans. Yeah, true, but
it was you can't. It's like, you know, it's a
circular conversation and you just will never nail them ever.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Now down there was they would justify their positions. They
could in their minds.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
But like a lot of cults and people in these
kind of groups are quite seasoned answer not answering questions.
They're slippery, you know, they don't they they want you
to believe that they're not haters at all. You know,
they just feel like the white person who is now
getting a bad deal and all that sort of stuff.
(17:43):
Their history tells a whole other thing. But I think
we're true. Are you getting to the muffins?
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Let's do the muffins?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Well, Ben, who happens to be now my partner, who
was the sun man. I don't know whether the sound
records is probably what I should say. He's raised with.
We can't go into people's homes without having something. You
must always bring something like a plate. You know, you
must bring a case.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
This is your country upbringing.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
It is, it is, it is. And we're all like, okay,
So we pulled over like we're going to spend the
whole day with them, and you know, in some respects
we have to be respectful, so we will do that.
And wow, we turned up with a dozen muffins and
way out because it all ended badly, because it was
always in badly.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
They couldn't find that common GRAMD.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
They just they just when you just can't say that
anything they're saying is truthful, they do want you to go.
But there they were, the muffins to be eaten. And
I did say that even they whilst they had a
mouthful of muffins, couldn't tell us to bugger off, because
(18:58):
really we brought them up.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
For the good tactic.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
If we want anything, always like in the matters department.
But yes, no, most it is the most peculiar business.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, well, I just I'm fascinated that you get to
speak to these people. We see them, we hear about them,
But there's people out there.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Like you've spoken to cult leaders.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Oh yeah, any cult if you you have people that
are vulnerable, because I think a lot of people that
go in the cults are looking for something in life,
and then it's easy to manipulate. It's psychology one oh
one too. Oh your part will look after you and yeah,
I think that's part of part.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Of what for them. Mind you, the Klan is long established. Yeah,
so you know they've been around forever and you know
what you're getting into it.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Well, look, we talk about your values that you grew
up with because of your family and your parents. Imagine
if you've grown up and say everyone in town you
don't trust them, and that that type of stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
So I yes, I think it's really hard to people
step outside their families and defy their families. I think
that's a really hard thing to do. And if you're
in the Klan, I would have thought it'd be particularly
hard because their finances and everything are locked in. So
I think, yeah, I think it's it.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
I think it's important to at least go in there
and put the spotlight so we get a sense.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Of I was fascinated to meet plans, you know, I
was fascinated to kind of get a bead on them
a bit, you know, and the respectable face that they
tried to put forward, you know, and you know, it's
it was a business as well.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
You also hung out with some gangsters in Chicago. What's
your mate's name side CTC do pop or.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, So the Chicago gangster he's a serious story. I
mean at the South Side they been there were particular,
so many young black youths were dying, and innocent people like,
you know, people mothers and their children were dying in
their houses because the bullets were coming in they were
(21:16):
sleeping and shot on their bed basically because of this
unruly gang shooting. Hey, we're seeing a bit of it ourselves.
But there's you know, innocent people getting.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Caught in steroids over there.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, And so we went over there and our connection
was but he came from Chicago and he but he
was he actually now lived in California. So we had
to wait for him to fly and he was running
late because he had to pick up a gun. And
I was like, oh my god, all right, and we
(21:51):
were going out with him to meet some some of
the gangs. And no, it was palpable. You you got
a very clear sense that it was a fairly injurious
thing just to drive in the streets, and it was
an education. You know. We spoke to the funeral director
there now, who was an extraordinary man, but he said
(22:11):
that young people were coming in to decide which casket
they were going to get at the age of like thirteen,
because he said they were of the opinion they were
going to make thirty five, and he said quite often
they didn't. But his point was, and a lot of
people's argument was that if these were white people kids
killing white kids, maybe something might have been done about this.
(22:33):
But because in other words, racism might have been playing
a role in why that wasn't being sorted. But I
got to say, I got to say that as a
white woman on the street, you know, chatting up a
couple of gang bloody members, oh, I didn't think, okay,
well this is this is my job. But it was
(22:56):
bizarre and it was dangerous. It just felt dangerous.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
You just knew, you got the sense of it. Well,
I think like the figures that every three hours someone
was shot and every four hours someone was murdered in that.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Part, they were their statistics and even the police were
getting out. They even they believed it.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Was two days.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
It's out of control.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Problematic that can just in the country and it's not resolved.
We'll bring it back to our country. And I get
your take on speaking to cyrial killer Bill McDonald and
Leonard Lawson who was a murderer and rapist.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
So these guys were serial killers. I didn't know much
about them, to be honest, but.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Well, we haven't heard a lot about them because their
crimes were from when was it in the sixties. McDonald
became known as a mutilator, stabbing five Mile victims to
death and removing their genitals, terrorizing Sydney in the early sixties.
And then you've got laws who raped three women in
the fifties and seven years later, after being released from prison,
(24:06):
murdered a young girl and took a hole full of
Sydney students hostage before shooting the fifteen year old pupil.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
I bet a lot of people don't even know about that.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I did, ye, Yeah, I've heard them only because of
the work I've done, But yeah, these people are people
are out there. Tell us what do you sit down
with them?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
It was like, well, Lawson was in Grafton Jail and
McDonald was in Long Bay, I think, and so they
both agreed for us to come and chat to the man.
I guess it was because they are nearing the end
of their life. I thought it would be fascinating to
understand what makes the serial killer tick. But of course
(24:48):
the serial killer is not going to say, look, Liz,
although explain a little. Although I have to say McDonald
did say he was a monster. Donald McDonald didn't hesitate
in saying he couldn't stop himself. He just, you know,
just his backstory might have given you a hint of problems.
He couldn't keep a job, he didn't know where his
next meal was coming from. You know, sometimes be quite homeless.
(25:11):
But you might be able to argue he had a
mental illness. And the style of crime was, you know,
removing male general tools is pretty out there. And I
guess if you got him to really talk, maybe you'll
find a reason for that.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
What the history of it.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, he just looked like a bloke who was ready
to just die in jail, and he was quite happy
about that. He didn't mind being in jail. I felt
he felt comfortable in jail because a was being fed
and b he knew that he would just probably kill
some more.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Well, they're the type of people that society, society needs
to be.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Protected from totally.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
And did you find and I found this one? Seeing
opposite notorious killers sometimes there what's the word, I'm looking
for normalness? Anybody else not stamped with I'm a serial killer?
And that's that's a chilling part about it, Like people
want to see the monster and sometimes they're not the monster.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah. I remember when I was at Grafton, No it
was it Kemst Grafton and Leonard Lawson was brought in
and I'd already been told, you know, not to sit
too close to him and all that sort of stuff,
so I'm like sitting back. But an actual fact, I
was not at risk at all. You know, this was
a bloke who his personality was one that wanted me
(26:36):
to believe he was incredibly sorry for what he had
done and he wanted to be forgiven and he'd been
married with three kids and just couldn't understand what had
happened that he'd done this, but he kept doing it
and he and he's the one to have a key
to his own cell.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Because he didn't trust people because a lot.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Of thieves and he lives and he was an artist
and he was so took me into his cell to
show me, you know, his paintings and stuff like that.
What am I doing in here? But look, in terms
of being a seemingly an ordinary bloke, yes, there we are,
you know, this old fellow. And he looking and he said,
if it helps you know, I spent twenty odd years
(27:19):
and I never saw the sun and the moon. I
never had grass under my feet, all that sort of stuff.
So you know, I want you to know I have
felt punished, but it's all small potatoes for victims and
their families or you know. So, but I did. I
did find it fascinating, I must say, to just look
at these people and figure out, Okay, you're one of
(27:41):
those people that I could never be sure about this
in the street, and I wouldn't have picked you.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
That's I think that's the thing that I get from
them quite often. You can't can't pick it. But I
also if I I'm not sure how long you've spent
with them, but if you spend enough time, I walk
out of the those type of situations and feel dirty
like you just yeah, it's just you want to just
sort of wash yourself away from it.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Look, I didn't necessarily feel that, but I do. I
did feel as though, well McDonald didn't try and change
my views or anything like that, but just being in
his presence it does strangely make you feel like this
has not been a great part of society. I've been
(28:29):
mixing with and Lawson. Of course, I just thought he
was a con man. He was just trying his hardest
to look put on a good face.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Now, speaking of bad people, dully done. The pedophile, Yes,
now this is one that you should be very proud
of finding playing the part and find finding him. Do
you want to tell us a story about that? Because
he was the Australia's most wanted pedophile.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
He was at the time, and he had fled the
country with the full knowledge that he was wanted. And
we got a tip off that he was in Honduras
and that his passport was up for renewal. So therefore
we knew we probably wouldn't he wasn't going to go
to this Straandon embassy to get it renewed, we didn't think,
(29:16):
so we had the were of the opinion he's probably
not going to go anywhere. He'll probably stay there. Now
you might find this slightly historical, but the police apparently
didn't have the resources to go, and.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Lise, I will not have you criticized police on my
catch killers. And that's really and.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
No because and I get it, but you know, sixty
minutes had the resources. And we put a woman on
the ground who a producer and she could speak Spanish
and she Portuguese whatever the language is. But she got
on the ground and just went village by village, bus
by bus and tracked him down. And then we had
(29:59):
to to get her to film him, so she had
to have someone help her lure him into a meeting
where she could film him without him knowing. Then we
had to send that film back to the police here
to say that's him, this is him, no doubt. And
it was like, yes, that's him, Okay, well we'll go
and get him. Who wants to come, But the AFP,
(30:26):
I think the New Southwest Police, but the DEA, the
Department of the Drug Enforcement Agency from America had to
come because to get him out of Honduras into America
where he could be extradited was their role. So we
get over there and of course all these people waiting
for us to bring him in, which we did. So
(30:50):
we brought him. We lured him in ya someone who
was offering him a business opportunity to a hotel. And
it was so funny because we all gathered the cops
and are still gathered in a room beforehand and discussed
how we're going to do this and what we wanted
to achieve, and and an agreement with them that you know,
(31:10):
we could given we found the bloke, can we film him?
Is that all right? And and but we had to
be cognizant of the law, and they have a job
and the whole point is to get him. So we
can't let this bloke obviously slip through our things and
they miss him. That would be a travesty. So we
(31:31):
did all that. We had the conversation and then the
agreed line from me because somebody had your pieces in it.
How long are you going to keep running for mister Dunn,
which meant he's about to go and put his hand
on the doorknob and leave the room the hotel room.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
That was okay, that's it.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
And so but I was saying, how was that Dolly
Dunn's been lured up to this? Hotel room and the
person gets a call. We organized call for him to
say get out, and he goes, oh, I've just got
to pop down on the lobby quickly he goes, he
leaves the room, and Dolly goes okay. And Dolly's got
a scotch and he's on the lounge and he's got
a cigarette and he goes, okay, yeah, and he's looking
(32:14):
around because we've got cameras in the room we can
watch him and so. And then we've got a connecting room.
So we come through the connecting room door. And I
can't imagine, but Doty's done, must have thought. But he
was pretty on it, you know. I could see he
was I was more nervous than him, you know. And
you could see he was switching. He was like trying
(32:35):
to work out, Okay, how am I going to get
out of here? So he was headed trying to head
for the door, and I can't stop him, of course,
But it was a bizarre scenario.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
For him and the crime. He was a teacher, maris.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Brothers, he was, yes, and he is his school boys.
He was filming young men, young boys and all that
sort of stuff. And the evidence was all there, but
it was well, I just said, it was a strange
business going out and getting this this guy this big.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Well when because he was he was on the run.
I think it all blew up in the police Royal
commissioned where it came out and yeah, but that was
that was a good get So I like that. I
like those stories. That's where about that. Yeah, yeah, that's
where the media are doing well.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Well, it is where media can do well, and it
was It doesn't happen like that very often, but it
was a great cooperation as well. We weren't blocked. I
think it was accepted that might as well use sixty
minutes resources if that's the way it's going.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
To I've always and I do understand you're going to
protect the integrity of investigations and all that, but there's
so many opportunities where the media can help. And I
think the police are slowly coming round to the fact that, yeah,
like we've podcast teachers, pat that type of thing. They've
got to open the doors up that. Yeah, if we're
(33:58):
trying to solve something, we got to rely on the community,
and the community might be in your case, it was
the media.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, And I think look, we all have to be
cognizant of the law, and we do. You know, if
we're really about getting you know, the bad guy or
woman out, then we do have to let the police
you take control. But in this scenario, I guess it's
because we invested heavily. We put someone on the ground
(34:25):
for a month, we tracked them down, we did the
whole thing, and then we said to the police, you know,
we're o and they were very they were very understanding there.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, that worked out. Well. You also went into Camp X, right, Well, yeah,
David Hicks's help y obey.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
This is this little slash of paradise in Cuba was
the Americans run and it you know, you land there
and it's it's totally control by you know, authorities. But
you go into town and it's all it's a little America,
you know, it's it's you can get your hamburgers and
(35:08):
pizzas and beers and everything like that. But then you
just up the road is this horrific place.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Just describe it.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Well, the first incarnation of Camp X was we drove
around and they had a lot of because it came
out of really nine to eleven happening and they were
bringing what they perceived as terrorists from all over the world. Really, yeah,
And David Hicks got caught up. He was in Afghanistan
(35:39):
and he's an Australian who you know. I think he
said he was troubled or always trying to find himself,
I think really to be fair to him, and found
himself in this situation. But he when I when I
went there, it was it just looks like it was
all barbed wired and netted off. But you look in
(36:01):
and just lots of orange jumpsuits, goggles quite often, you know,
chains and whatever out in the open. Really a bit
of a tin shed occasionally for some shelter. It was.
It was pretty confronting. It was a pretty rough place.
There was no there was not going to be. As
(36:21):
they said to me, there are no medium security terrorists,
so there will be There will be no medium security here.
And I think America in particular was angry. They were
not in the.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Mood to be no half measures.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
It was people would argue, not even the mood to
be humane. So it was pretty out there. So the
next time we went, I went one time. Next time
they'd improved facilities because the world was starting to come
down on them because not everybody was guilty, it turns out.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
And that blew up. There was stuff that was was
uncovered the way the guards were treating some of the prisoners.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
But you can be held and it still can be
held there without charge forever. That's well, that's the argument
for the rest of the world. And we get we
get that. You know, you don't much like these people,
but you have to have evidence to hold people. And anyway,
as we know, David Hicks came home. But yeah, I
(37:19):
this was this was a place where there was no forgiveness.
There will be no forgiveness in this joint. This was tough.
This was hard. This was to show the world, no,
we don't put up with.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Any of that. How we're going to react. Did you
did you report on nine eleven or in any capacity?
Speaker 2 (37:39):
I wasn't. I didn't get across there. I came over
later because some Australians were caught in the Twin Towers. Yeah,
and interviewed some of the people or a particular person
who had to run for their lives down that I
think I'm not sure which tar, but it's you know,
that was something wasn't that was. I actually was in
(38:02):
a hotel in my bed in Melbourne and had the
news on and I thought, what's what's that? But when
I saw the second jet go into the Second Tower
without change, the world didn't. Yeah, that was that was
I think we all felt unsettled by that. You know,
it was suddenly like, oh, if that could happened in America,
(38:23):
And of course we did see some you know, ripple
effects of that.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
What about you spent time in Afghanistan. What's it like
for you going into it like a war zone?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Well, the first time it was the Taliban was fighting
the Northern Alliance as it was called, so we'd gone
in there to see it's a it's a it's a
bizarre business because Afghanistan is very beautiful, you know, the
Hindu Kush, the mountains, everything is quite wonderful, and yet
(38:59):
there it always felt like it was could erupt at
any time. They didn't much like women, but they hate
them a whole lot more now, but you know, they
tolerated me. We were constantly trying to find the front line,
which was you know, well where is this war? And
we'd hooked up with this warlord who had been well
(39:23):
educated in America in the UK, and you know, his
father had handed down, you know, the Warlord title. He'd
built this big pink eagle up on a mountain which
you could call you crawl up into and sit on
his rugs and drink. I'm not sure if it was tea.
It's a very you know, there's a lot of hypocrisy.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
I think, how did you find yourself like from a
personal point of view, being in those environments? So were
you worried that the whole time?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Or did you I was the first time around. I
was particularly naive. So we're walking too, we're walking to
watch and we were told we'd be you know, we
finally found the line. But we're walking to a place
down towards this bridge, and we were told, you know, okay,
this is where we might be able to get some shots.
Walking with some soldiers down there, and then suddenly there's
(40:11):
this gunfire going off and everybody hits the deck except
I go, what was that which was appalling? In grand
high sight? Glorius hussit hindsight, you know, And Ben, who
was now my partner, he was this hand pulled me
into the ditch and said get down like you dummy.
(40:34):
And then of course suddenly I became very aware oh yeah.
Suddenly I became very weare they shooting get us? Because
we were told that the tripod we had looked a
bit like a rock a pearl pro pearl grenade, you know,
So it was.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Like, did you give the tripod to Ben to carry?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
You're here?
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Well, Vera was trying to do a piece camera and
I noticed all our soldiers and including Ben others, all
hiding behind running and hiding behind wall that I was
not behind. So I learn pretty quickly ignorance can Oh
it saved me. It saved me totally, because I'm not
even sure I would have gotten out of the car.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
But like just so so many experiences like and on
an aircraft carry of the use aircraft carry five five
hundred people on the ship. What was that like?
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Oh quite something. We're just getting on is quite the trick.
So you get on this sea too or whatever. It's
a it's an aircraft that lands on the deck that
brings you in. But they tell you and you've got
to be aware of it that we are. It's it's
it's kind of like a crash landing. So you come
in and but we we rev up as we come
down because if we miss the toe rap it's supposed
(41:46):
to collect us. We've got to be able to take
off and go over the edge and get airborne, so
we can't afford to pull the engines down. We're actually
going to be going harder faster as we're coming in.
And that, to me, it was like, you are kidding me,
and you know how you're ready for that crash? Oh
and I did that twice. I did it on a
(42:07):
couple of aircraft carriers and to me was like, what
am I doing? But anyway, Yes, a floating city. That
is exactly what they are. It's amazing. And all those
fighter jets, you know, as they've all been sent off,
it is you are. That is a battle zone right
there in the sea.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
Just a floating war machine.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
It is. It is. It's very testosterone. It's a very
you know, I figure I'm a very much a woman
because I'm like, actually, that's not fair to the women
of the world, because let's just talking about me. I'm like,
oh god, what was that.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
That's a noisy plane? Wake you up in the morning.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
You never slept. Let me put it that way, because
they're they're also landing on your head underneath a great
force and they have to land the same way I
did coming in hot.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
I haven't even covered the celebrity, so that's because you've
said you don't like gossips. At the start, give us
a celebrity story. What was your will simplify it? What
was the celebrity you enjoyed most talking to.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Okay, I look for a couple and everybody will go.
Of course, George Clooney always was professional. He'd turn up
and he'd be very professional. But Dustin Hoffman was a
whole new ball game. He wouldn't go, just like he
was just having a fabulous time. And when his publicist said, look,
we probably should leave here, when you go, I'm fine.
(43:37):
And then at the end he asked for the whole
interview to be sent to him. He enjoyed it so much.
So he was old school. You know, they turn up
and they know why they're there, and they just if
they're in the mood. Admittedly, but he was great. And
probably she's coming to town, so it's a terrible story
to tell. But Mariah Carey, honest God, she kept us
(43:59):
waiting like eight hours. That's the question is why did
we wait well? Because we were constantly being told she's
just in the next room, and she's just you know,
she'll be in a minute.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
So just strung an in.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
A minute, and it went on. I left my hotel
room at like five in the afternoon, and when I
walked in, it was like four in the morning, and
I was setting up getting ready for breakfast, and I thought,
I just I just don't even know why, you know,
how the life goes out of you. She's arrived and
it's like, how did even get one of my finners?
(44:37):
Not one of my farmers? Hi? Hi? Just she looked
a million dollars and she tried really hard, but I
just just we could.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
All look at me, okay to get ready.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Well, she was doing other things, but I just truly
it was, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
You've said you don't enjoy.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
It's, oh, well, I think it's because of the machinery
around it.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
It's just not the celebrity, it's all the people are
around them.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
It's the whole you know, doing and throwing an agreement
and you know everybody's watching and making sure. It's just
there's I think I call it po lava, and that's
exactly what it is. There's so much polava, and in
the end, you just really want to sit down. We
all know why we're here. You're going to flog on
film or something, and I'm going to be grateful that
(45:26):
you want to talk to me, and we'll discuss a
whole lot of things that you might be okay with.
I'm not going to embarrass you. I'm not. I'm here
to make a great story. That's all I'm here to do,
and it will help sell what you've got. It seems
like so much hard work, and I don't And in
the end, you always feel like they arrive hating you
(45:48):
and they leave hating you, and.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
When they're not genuine, I'm sure it comes across and
they've just got the lip service and this is what.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Yeah, look, and I'm it's a big brush stroke I'm making.
I know because there are some very good exceptions. But
by and large, for me, these are color stories, ultimately
and nice and I think we need them.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Not your favorite, not for me. One of the one
of the stories you didn't we mentioned that before, but
was going from celebrities to a very personal thing. But
the death of your father. Do you want to just
tell us about that and why you did a story
about that, and why you considered the hardest story that
you've done, and possibly one of the most important stories.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Yes, well, my dad, who was my rock, really country
town man, genuine, trusting, caring, thoughtful bloke, dairy farmer. He
got what was pneumonia and ultimately went to hospital via
an ambulance and went into the local public hospital, was
(46:55):
treated and got through that, although there were some mistakes
while he was in there as well, like you know,
but forgivable because he didn't die. But then they moved
him to the private hospital to recuperate, and then that
is where he didn't receive his medication. He's only stroke
(47:15):
medication for the entire eight days that he was there,
because it wasn't written down. And then Dad had a
major stroke, and I just I just I just couldn't
believe that something so basic could occur. I just I
just felt, wow, you know, he'd recovered, he was doing well,
(47:42):
he was under their observation all that, and you didn't
give him his anti stroke medication. That's pretty basic anyway.
As a result of that, as a result of that,
I was pretty devastated by this fundamental error. There's this
fundament But of course I was to learn that there
were men any fundamental errors that were occurring, and before
(48:03):
I knew it, Dad was still dying. When people were nurses, doctors,
other patients were telling me their own terrible stories. Dad
hadn't even died when we were getting I'm so sorry,
you know your dad's here, and because they all knew
what had happened country town, so Dad did die. And
(48:25):
it was after that that I thought, really, why has
this occurred? Because there are really good people in those hospitals.
There are really good people trying very hard. You know,
nobody wakes up to go and do something terrible. I
get that, but I realized that the rural system was
(48:46):
broken beyond belief. But then I realized it'd been broken
for a long time. I'm just at the end of
a queue of terribleness. So I decided I should tell
the story, and I I did think about it, but
I thought, I ask other people to do this, so
I will tell my dad's story. I think it could
(49:08):
have been prevented. That's why I think Dad didn't have
to die that day. Yeah, So I told this story,
and of course got lots of other people with their
terrible stories as well. You know, ultimately, I'm not going
to compare terribleness, but I did think. I thank god
(49:29):
Dad was eighty eight and had some life, I guess,
but still, you know, my horror was it wasn't taken away.
So I told the story. The new South Wales Parliament
set up an inquiry into rural health and declared what
we all knew was appalling. Everything's terrible, you name it,
(49:53):
it's all terrible. Well it's still going on today. It's
still going on today. There were forty four recommendations of
change and the Government of today was behind all those changes,
said that was all happening. But really the rural health,
if it is a truth, if you live in a
country town, and particularly out west I mean at least
(50:14):
on the coast, people there are doctors who were happy
to go and because people like the beach or whatever,
but you cannot get staff. I then did stories out
Western it is that's almost a crime scene because of
the lack of staff, the way in which a meager
(50:37):
amount of people are expected to do, you know, an
enormous job. They're bringing in cleaners and gardeners to sit
with patients while they run to answer the phone or
to deal with somebody. Gary Jubil is just come in
because his seventy's finger or something.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
You know, it's just just is.
Speaker 2 (50:55):
A cycle of horror. And I don't know how. To me,
there seems to be an outrageous amount of money that's
already there. It's how it's being spent, is my very
humble view. And I wonder, I wonder how this can
keep going.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
Well, it's good that you put the spotlight on it
and highlight, but yeah, quite often I see where there's
situations that are bad. Light that you get the initial
response from the politicians and you get the recommendations, but
it's about implementing the recommendations in a timely manner.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Well, and that it is such a big issue, and
you know it is. It's Australia wide. You know, there's
something like seven million Australians who live in the country
who require some sort of health and if they're not
expecting to have a heart transplant up the road, they're
just expecting that somebody might be able to a there
(51:55):
will be a doctor, be somebody might be able to
give them immediate treatment and see get them to you know,
somewhere else to get them the major treatment if it
is required. They're not expecting the world. They're just expecting something,
you know, and it's just I'm shocked, constantly shocked. It's
still going on. I know that. I think the news
(52:16):
corps and the Daily Telegraph have been absolutely on it
as well of recent times. And thank god, because I
think that is what the media is.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
That is that is a role, a worthwhile role of
the media to put the spotlight on things like that.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
We all pay taxes, and the people in the country
paid taxes just like the rest of us. And when
you've got paramedics having to make a priority about I
don't know which one I can go to.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Well, we do it. We all, we all pay those
taxes and health services. It should be the measure of
society and that it shouldn't discriminate because people are in
remote locations and as you said, you're not expecting the
heart transpan out west they come to the city. But
the basic stuff.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
Just basic stuff, It would be good and people.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
It becomes problematic because if people are under stress and
they over work constantly, they're going to make mistakes and
they'll probably more than likely leave the profession.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
So they're just That's why I'm saying, you know, in
my dad's situation. That's a mistake, that's not a willful action. Well,
I didn't see it. I thought it was a bit
of an unforgivable mistake in many respects, but it was
a mistake. Nobody intends to cause harm in that profession.
But it's just it was a symptom of that which
(53:31):
is failing so many of us. And you know, if
you're in the country driving out to have a nice time,
you know, out on a farm somewhere or the vineyards
or whatever, and you have the misfortune of having something
go wrong, well you might be introduced to the country
town hospital that doesn't actually have a dog.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
Happens to our city facts.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
You venture out beyond the Blue mountains and I worry.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
Yeah, well it's something that's yeah, it does need to
be fixed. So the more people talk about it, the
more people push. But it's not about yeah, we've had
an inquiry and then recommendations unless they get implemented. And
I've seen that too many times with parliamentary inquiries.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
I can't understand why politics gets so in the way
of this stuff. I mean, of course politics runs our lives,
I know, but you know, it's just a hard and
fast fact that you know something needs to be done,
so let's do it.
Speaker 1 (54:27):
Is I just said if I can't have too ill
informed to have a political conversation. But I can't help
but think a lot of politicians are in there just
to feather their own nest and how they get re
elected the next time. And that shouldn't be what politics
is about. Politics should be doing the right thing. You're
representing the community.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
Well, look at what I do know is that votes count.
If you're not getting much joy from your local member,
change your vote.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
Yeah, well that's a way of mate, mate.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
But I think it's pretty hard for people to change votes.
Speaker 1 (54:59):
They find it hard making that count. The Under Investigation
the show which I was very fortunate enough and we
worked quite a bit on that show together. I like
the concept of the show, and I just want to
ask you a question. Maybe I might take some notes here.
You got your head around so much information I saw
when we're filming and the detail of the information. Is
(55:21):
that something that you're just naturally good at because we
would be covering one particular thing and then pile a
paper and you'd get your head around the next part.
What's where's that skill come from?
Speaker 2 (55:32):
Oh, just research, just having to just I am that
person who needs to know it all. Unfortunately, I'm grateful
for the research that's done, but I need to be
able to see the paper that you got that from,
or I need to be able to re and I
need to know the answers to a whole lot of
stuff as best I can. I go through all those
(55:56):
police documents and try and make sense of every bit
of information when we get down to doing those episodes,
in particular, because a lot of them were, you know,
from the past, and there was quite a lot of
information out there and we were trying to, as you know,
bring it forward new information. I just I don't feel
(56:20):
good if I don't think I've covered it well that
I you know, I before I came here, I reread
my book. Now that sounds ridiculous, but it was like,
oh gosh, I've got to remember what did I say?
You know, that's just me. I couldn't come here without
being ready as best I could.
Speaker 1 (56:38):
As best you could. Well, you've done pretty good. I
think it's gone pretty ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
I did write it.
Speaker 1 (56:43):
But I know what you're saying. I've been inter viewed
about the book and you write it, and I think
you get to the point where you've written the book
and you're so tired of the effort that goes into
writing the book, you just sort of push.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
And also, I'm writing another book, not about me, but
I write another book, and my head's in that book,
so you know, I do. There's a whole lot of
information I'm shifting. But anyway, yes, I must, I must.
Speaker 1 (57:09):
But that that is that is like we talk and
you've made some jokes about your career and you've been fortunate,
but my observation of it lives and picked up on
a bit of it working with you. But also just
the way that you carry yourself, you get on with people,
and that in a ruthless industry, it's not bad to
just get on with people because no one. They mightn't
(57:30):
agree with what you did or whatever, but they can't
say a bad Yeah, I'm sure there's.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
Some people way No, I think fundamentally, you know, I
like people, you like people. I like people. I think
most people are good people. You may not agree with
everything they do or say, but ultimately I like people,
and I come with good will. I don't come. I'm
(57:55):
happy to have my mind changed too by the way
I might feel like I'm not sure about you and
then come away I do feel good about you. I'm
happy to give people the benefit of the dubt. I
think that's not a bad place to be. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:09):
Well we might wrap it up here, Liz, but I've
got to go. This is awkward. Okay, this is life. Yes, Liz,
the time we've run there. Okay, I'm Gary Jubilin, I'm
Liz Hayes, and this is I Catch Killers. Can we
finish with that? Sure, I'll do it first. I'm Gary Jubilin.
Speaker 2 (58:31):
And I'm Liz Hayes. This is I Catch Killers with
Gary Jubilin.
Speaker 1 (58:36):
Thank you. It's been a lot of fun, Liz. All
the best for you whatever you're doing. I'm sure. I
know you're busy, you're doing lots of stuff, but yeah,
you're a pleasure to work with and it's great avenue
on here.
Speaker 2 (58:48):
Thanks for coming in, No, thank you was my pleasure. Actually,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
Cheers.
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life, the average person is never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes in the contact with crime is
left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into
this world. This is part two of my chat with
(00:48):
high profile investigative journalists Liza Hayes. In part one, we
got a sense of the life of a high profile
television presenter and a globe trotting journalists with sixty minutes.
In this part, but we took a deep dive into
some of the truly fascinating stories covered by Liz, including
her involvement in the hunt for theorists pedophile Dolly done,
(01:09):
what it was like in Camp x ray, where Australian
David Hicks was held, her sit down with survivors of
the Link Cafe and her meetings with serial killers. We
also talked about the death of Liz's father, which resulted
in her reporting on her most difficult story. Liz Hayes,
welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Nice to still be here.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I haven't kicked you out yet or you haven't stormed
out yet. Can I ask you a favorite? Could you
just say I am Liz Hayes.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well, you don't say I am Li Hayes. You say
I'm Liz ha Oh.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Okay, certainly, see you've correctly, You've corrected me. I'm Gary
jubilan Is Eye Catch Killers.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
How was that excellent?
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Thank you? Thank you?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Maybe you know it's there is an intonation that you
have to get right, Okay, get it just maybe in
front of the mirrors.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Okay, not with practice, this could be hello, Okay. Now,
in regards to interviews, when you're interviewing people, I've seen
your interview technique. You like to get people people relaxed
and then then you hit them with the hard questions.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Wow. Yeah, no, look I think everybody is at their
best when they don't feel you know, threatened, or if
they feel relaxed as comfortable as they can. I think
that's a that's a given. I think all all people
will respond no matter who they are, actually when they
feel you know, they're feeling reasonable about themselves or this
(02:42):
is you know, it's really hard to say to people
just relax when you've got about four cameras around them
and it's just you and whoever, and you know it's
quite dark everywhere else. But ultimately I just try to
engage them at a level where they feel it's okay,
and I say, look at you, this is all up
to you. You know, you know the answers I don't.
(03:06):
I'm asking the questions and.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
People they're very aware if you're talking to them and
if you're trying to nail them or you're giving revealing
a little bit about yourself making them feel relaxed, and then.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, I always look if it's if it's a bad guy,
as you would say, I don't give them anything. No,
I have every They know they know why they're there,
and that's part of the interviewing technique is to know
why you're there, what you're aiming to achieve what you're
hoping to get. What's this story about? So you pretty
(03:44):
much know what you are achieving or would like to achieve.
Your research is probably told you what the answers are.
But sometimes something totally different comes up, helps up, and
you obviously deal with that. But I quite like people
feeling like this is a moment for them, if that's
what the story is about. I don't have any qualms
(04:06):
in bowling up the appropriately difficult question. I don't like
I'm not a natural combative person, but I don't have
problems doing it if that's what's required.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
That's interesting you say that I found that I'd come
out of in the views where I've had to go
hard and I'd be drained because it takes that emotional energy.
But you don't feel good about yourself either.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Well, it's not you know, we don't live our lives
every time we go to the to the supermarket nailing
that pool girl about you know? Is that price right?
You know? No, it's not how we live our lives normally.
But when we're having to deal and reveal things are
(04:51):
and call people to account, then you have to there's
no way around that. I didn't. I never I guess
it's not my natural tactic. Go great today now, very jubilant.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
But you do. I see it in some journeys and
there's almost a smugglingness when they've when they've nailed nail
a person. I don't think that's the right way to go.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
And I think when it comes to television at least
I think the viewers can see and they will make
a decision also about you and the questions you ask
and how you ask them and if you know, if
you're not careful, they will have turned on you and
somehow rather like the Baddie weird, but it happens. So
you know, you have to have a fair minded approach
(05:38):
to those things. But if somebody is just out lying,
you have very little choice but to say.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
And go back and present and present the facts and
call them into account. Okay, you relax, Oh yeah, it's
all good. All right. Well, now I'm going to ask
you a question, and this is in my detailed research
about Liz Hayes. Reading the book your book, what I wrote,
(06:05):
it's come to my attention that you cohabitated with well
known TV presenter Richard Wilkinson. Yes, but in the do
you care to explain yourself?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, in the platonic sense I want to make And
that's one of the things I've had to say over
and over. Guess what. I did not go out with Richard.
We shared an apartment together. But yes, oh my gosh,
Actually we had a ball, had a great time. He
was he was just doing MTV, that was you know,
and he'd come out of a marriage. And we're in
(06:36):
the back of a limo going to a charity event
and he told me that, you know, his world had
fallen over and he didn't have anywhere to live. Do
you think he meant that? I set up and I
didn't even know. Yes, I can be by the way anyway.
I said, look, I've got a spare bedroom and a
spear bathroom actually, so if if you get stuck. He
(06:59):
arrived the next day. He was stuck anyway. But it
turned out to be a fabulous friendship, a great We
had a great time. And look, he's popular. He was
a very popular man. I have to say, I've had
a lot of had a lot of girlfriends.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
I have to say, we've never picked it.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
But I know and look to be fair to him
because if he hears this and thinks it's one side,
and he'll say he endured a few interesting characters on
my behalf as well.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So okay, well secret should stay secret. And yeah, we
talked in part one about the people's right for privacy
and I respect your right for privacy. Yes, we'll move on. Okay,
Well this is I catch skill as we jump from
one thing to another. But a crime that had an
impact on the nation, and I was actually involved in
(07:51):
it too, as doing the crime scene was the Link
Cafe siege and you had an opportunity or you did
interview the survivors are the hostages of that as a
collective group of people. I know that had an impact
on you. It took something out of you, or you've
felt the motion from what there. I've spoken to Luis
(08:13):
a Hope, an amazing woman, and what she endured I
know when I was in the crime so it had
some We went in straight after the incident had been
resolved and there was just a neariness about the place
and you could almost feel the fear in the in
the room. What was it like sitting down with the
hostages and speaking to them after they survived what they did?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Oh awful? It was pretty raw. It was eight of
them that I spoke to, and all of them individuals
different how they reacted to this incredible scenario where they've
been held hostage in a cafe in the CBD and
you know, they're gone in there for their morning coffee
(08:56):
and it doesn't end for another what sixteen hours or
something late that night, and it doesn't end. Well, well,
no it doesn't. Let's face it, No, ultimately it didn't.
So they allowed me in. They let me come into
that room, that cafe with them, which I thought was
incredibly generous of them. They gave me permission to understand
(09:20):
what it was like for them. And I think there
were times when I just I could see inside that
cafe when they were talking to me, and I did feel,
oh God, what would I do? I don't know what
I would do. And I felt terrible for those who
(09:41):
ran and felt guilt. I felt terrible for those who
were left behind and couldn't run. I felt you know,
it was just it was an incredible moment in time
where this story allowed me to understand what it must
be like to as best I could, to what that
(10:01):
situation must be like, you know, to be held against
your will and basically been they were of the opinion
this guy had a bomb. They were told that basically,
and then and to know that he's not there to
look after them. All their lives are on the line.
And I was totally moved by them, totally, you know,
(10:26):
those who were thinking about what to do, those who
were just trying to stay calm, those who were you know,
Louisa Hope's got a mum. Louisa's not able to run
that easily if in the end, you know, mum couldn't run,
so she had to decide not to run either. That's
(10:46):
the first time in that kind of scenario I've been
able to sit and listen to what that was like.
And it did. It really took me into a moment
in time which it stopped me and I thought, I
actually don't know what I would have done. I really
(11:07):
don't know what I would have done.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Terrifying, isn't it? What they did.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Feel their terror and I felt their their anguish. I
felt at all. Actually I felt really moved by it.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
And You've got an understanding too that people that ran
how they felt when someone died, of others that didn't run,
so many decisions to make, and who knows how you
would react in that situation.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Do you know how you would react because you have
some training and you have some know how. Yeah, I
come from a place of I've had some hostile environment training.
But you know, there's no way in the world I
would have been sure of any decision I was going
to make.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
No, there's things that I think in my mind and
until you've actually confronted with them, what could be done
or could couldn't be done. But yeah, I understood people
like that with no training, just as you said, for
a morning coffee. And I think that's what rocked everyone too.
It could have been any one of us, and it
(12:12):
literally was just you're in the wrong place at the
wrong time, and you're caught up in that. You also
spoke to the sniper police sniper, didn't you?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I did. Davidson, Yes, and he was terribly affected. And
I think one of the things that affected him from
what I could gather is terribly nice guy. By the way,
is he's watching it as a sniper and communications were difficult,
is how I would say it. But he felt and
(12:42):
he saw Tory executed. Tory Johnson, the cafe manager, was executed,
and he saw that, and he felt as though he'd
let him down. And I think that's the core of
what gives him that terrible PTSD that they have, including
the the and who went in, the head sniper entry team,
(13:05):
all of that plays out in your head, and I guess,
but I could see also from his perspective, and I
heard all the other arguments of whether he could have
really taken the shot, or whether it would have been accurate,
or you know, he shouldn't have been allowed his mind
to be worried about that. He did the best, he
caught all that. But as a human being, he's there,
(13:25):
he's he's in a position where he felt in his
heart he could do this, and then he sees this
terrible moment. I can understand. And yet he was highly trained.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, I know, but he would have known with his training,
and I can see the sense of responsibility with the
felt and different things. But yeah, the entry team that
went in too, like those guys, Yeah, they believed that
he had a bomb too, but they still went in.
And yeah, it was it was awakening for the city
(13:59):
in the regards think because it was so public. It
was just everything about it that just sort of okay,
this is the world's come to us now with that
type of situation.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
It was a moment where I think Australia literally changed.
It was like that kind of terrorism can happen here,
and that was what I viewed as terrorism.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Yeah, I think we've got to call it, call it
for what it is. And I think there was lessons
learned from the police of plast response and all that,
which is, if anything comes from it, I hope there's
some lessons lessons learned ful.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yes, And that's hard for everybody. It's really hard. I
don't profess to have a high moral ground or view
on any of that because I don't know except for
what we're all told. And even then I still can't
be sure other than to say what I am sure
is that, yes, everybody is better in terms of knowing
(14:51):
what should be done better.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah. Well, and it was a contained situation too, and
you could imagine if it was a mobile situation how
difficult that would be. But okay, where are we at now,
klu Klux Klan. Come on, I've never got to speak
to someone that's in the klu Klux Klan, but I'm
(15:13):
getting to speak to someone that's spoken to someone that's
in the klu Klux Klan.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
That was a very weird business. I have to say.
We were going to speak to the ku Klux Klan,
which is even hard to say, because the clan was
of the opinion that Donald Trump was giving them a
wink and a nod, that what they believed was what
he might have believed, because he wouldn't come out and
you know and say that they were a racist, irresponsible
(15:41):
group of haters. But they were of the opinion that,
so you know, he was on their side. So off
we went, and we went to this particular place which
was a clan country and the clan family. They had
this massive property where they had, you know, a conference
(16:02):
center and a bit of schooling and all on, yes
and where you can come and learn a whole lot more.
That had a servenir shop.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
I'd have to visit there.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I don't think. I didn't see any pillow cases or
anything like that, but they had anyway, they and they
had a television studio and they broadcast twice a day,
and that had big billboards on the side of the road.
And look, what can I say, It's not my world
(16:38):
by long shot, and trying to get.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Into it to clarify that, but.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Trying to get into their heads about why you feel this,
Why are you so threatened by people who aren't white?
What is the problem here? What, what's what's going on?
And there's no good answer to that.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Did you get a sense of who they were, like,
were coming from?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
They were generation of people they come from usually well
a long line of you know clans. Yeah, true, but
it was you can't. It's like, you know, it's a
circular conversation and you just will never nail them ever.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Now down there was they would justify their positions. They
could in their minds.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
But like a lot of cults and people in these
kind of groups are quite seasoned answer not answering questions.
They're slippery, you know, they don't they they want you
to believe that they're not haters at all. You know,
they just feel like the white person who is now
getting a bad deal and all that sort of stuff.
(17:43):
Their history tells a whole other thing. But I think
we're true. Are you getting to the muffins?
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Let's do the muffins?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Well, Ben, who happens to be now my partner, who
was the sun man. I don't know whether the sound
records is probably what I should say. He's raised with.
We can't go into people's homes without having something. You
must always bring something like a plate. You know, you
must bring a case.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
This is your country upbringing.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
It is, it is, it is. And we're all like, okay,
So we pulled over like we're going to spend the
whole day with them, and you know, in some respects
we have to be respectful, so we will do that.
And wow, we turned up with a dozen muffins and
way out because it all ended badly, because it was
always in badly.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
They couldn't find that common GRAMD.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
They just they just when you just can't say that
anything they're saying is truthful, they do want you to go.
But there they were, the muffins to be eaten. And
I did say that even they whilst they had a
mouthful of muffins, couldn't tell us to bugger off, because
(18:58):
really we brought them up.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
For the good tactic.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
If we want anything, always like in the matters department.
But yes, no, most it is the most peculiar business.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, well, I just I'm fascinated that you get to
speak to these people. We see them, we hear about them,
But there's people out there.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Like you've spoken to cult leaders.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Oh yeah, any cult if you you have people that
are vulnerable, because I think a lot of people that
go in the cults are looking for something in life,
and then it's easy to manipulate. It's psychology one oh
one too. Oh your part will look after you and yeah,
I think that's part of part.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Of what for them. Mind you, the Klan is long established. Yeah,
so you know they've been around forever and you know
what you're getting into it.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Well, look, we talk about your values that you grew
up with because of your family and your parents. Imagine
if you've grown up and say everyone in town you
don't trust them, and that that type of stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
So I yes, I think it's really hard to people
step outside their families and defy their families. I think
that's a really hard thing to do. And if you're
in the Klan, I would have thought it'd be particularly
hard because their finances and everything are locked in. So
I think, yeah, I think it's it.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
I think it's important to at least go in there
and put the spotlight so we get a sense.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Of I was fascinated to meet plans, you know, I
was fascinated to kind of get a bead on them
a bit, you know, and the respectable face that they
tried to put forward, you know, and you know, it's
it was a business as well.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
You also hung out with some gangsters in Chicago. What's
your mate's name side CTC do pop or.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, So the Chicago gangster he's a serious story. I
mean at the South Side they been there were particular,
so many young black youths were dying, and innocent people like,
you know, people mothers and their children were dying in
their houses because the bullets were coming in they were
(21:16):
sleeping and shot on their bed basically because of this
unruly gang shooting. Hey, we're seeing a bit of it ourselves.
But there's you know, innocent people getting.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Caught in steroids over there.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, And so we went over there and our connection
was but he came from Chicago and he but he
was he actually now lived in California. So we had
to wait for him to fly and he was running
late because he had to pick up a gun. And
I was like, oh my god, all right, and we
(21:51):
were going out with him to meet some some of
the gangs. And no, it was palpable. You you got
a very clear sense that it was a fairly injurious
thing just to drive in the streets, and it was
an education. You know. We spoke to the funeral director
there now, who was an extraordinary man, but he said
(22:11):
that young people were coming in to decide which casket
they were going to get at the age of like thirteen,
because he said they were of the opinion they were
going to make thirty five, and he said quite often
they didn't. But his point was, and a lot of
people's argument was that if these were white people kids
killing white kids, maybe something might have been done about this.
(22:33):
But because in other words, racism might have been playing
a role in why that wasn't being sorted. But I
got to say, I got to say that as a
white woman on the street, you know, chatting up a
couple of gang bloody members, oh, I didn't think, okay,
well this is this is my job. But it was
(22:56):
bizarre and it was dangerous. It just felt dangerous.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
You just knew, you got the sense of it. Well,
I think like the figures that every three hours someone
was shot and every four hours someone was murdered in that.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Part, they were their statistics and even the police were
getting out. They even they believed it.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Was two days.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
It's out of control.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Problematic that can just in the country and it's not resolved.
We'll bring it back to our country. And I get
your take on speaking to cyrial killer Bill McDonald and
Leonard Lawson who was a murderer and rapist.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
So these guys were serial killers. I didn't know much
about them, to be honest, but.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Well, we haven't heard a lot about them because their
crimes were from when was it in the sixties. McDonald
became known as a mutilator, stabbing five Mile victims to
death and removing their genitals, terrorizing Sydney in the early sixties.
And then you've got laws who raped three women in
the fifties and seven years later, after being released from prison,
(24:06):
murdered a young girl and took a hole full of
Sydney students hostage before shooting the fifteen year old pupil.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
I bet a lot of people don't even know about that.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I did, ye, Yeah, I've heard them only because of
the work I've done, But yeah, these people are people
are out there. Tell us what do you sit down
with them?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
It was like, well, Lawson was in Grafton Jail and
McDonald was in Long Bay, I think, and so they
both agreed for us to come and chat to the man.
I guess it was because they are nearing the end
of their life. I thought it would be fascinating to
understand what makes the serial killer tick. But of course
(24:48):
the serial killer is not going to say, look, Liz,
although explain a little. Although I have to say McDonald
did say he was a monster. Donald McDonald didn't hesitate
in saying he couldn't stop himself. He just, you know,
just his backstory might have given you a hint of problems.
He couldn't keep a job, he didn't know where his
next meal was coming from. You know, sometimes be quite homeless.
(25:11):
But you might be able to argue he had a
mental illness. And the style of crime was, you know,
removing male general tools is pretty out there. And I
guess if you got him to really talk, maybe you'll
find a reason for that.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
What the history of it.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, he just looked like a bloke who was ready
to just die in jail, and he was quite happy
about that. He didn't mind being in jail. I felt
he felt comfortable in jail because a was being fed
and b he knew that he would just probably kill
some more.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Well, they're the type of people that society, society needs
to be.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Protected from totally.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
And did you find and I found this one? Seeing
opposite notorious killers sometimes there what's the word, I'm looking
for normalness? Anybody else not stamped with I'm a serial killer?
And that's that's a chilling part about it, Like people
want to see the monster and sometimes they're not the monster.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah. I remember when I was at Grafton, No it
was it Kemst Grafton and Leonard Lawson was brought in
and I'd already been told, you know, not to sit
too close to him and all that sort of stuff,
so I'm like sitting back. But an actual fact, I
was not at risk at all. You know, this was
a bloke who his personality was one that wanted me
(26:36):
to believe he was incredibly sorry for what he had
done and he wanted to be forgiven and he'd been
married with three kids and just couldn't understand what had
happened that he'd done this, but he kept doing it
and he and he's the one to have a key
to his own cell.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Because he didn't trust people because a lot.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Of thieves and he lives and he was an artist
and he was so took me into his cell to
show me, you know, his paintings and stuff like that.
What am I doing in here? But look, in terms
of being a seemingly an ordinary bloke, yes, there we are,
you know, this old fellow. And he looking and he said,
if it helps you know, I spent twenty odd years
(27:19):
and I never saw the sun and the moon. I
never had grass under my feet, all that sort of stuff.
So you know, I want you to know I have
felt punished, but it's all small potatoes for victims and
their families or you know. So, but I did. I
did find it fascinating, I must say, to just look
at these people and figure out, Okay, you're one of
(27:41):
those people that I could never be sure about this
in the street, and I wouldn't have picked you.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
That's I think that's the thing that I get from
them quite often. You can't can't pick it. But I
also if I I'm not sure how long you've spent
with them, but if you spend enough time, I walk
out of the those type of situations and feel dirty
like you just yeah, it's just you want to just
sort of wash yourself away from it.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Look, I didn't necessarily feel that, but I do. I
did feel as though, well McDonald didn't try and change
my views or anything like that, but just being in
his presence it does strangely make you feel like this
has not been a great part of society. I've been
(28:29):
mixing with and Lawson. Of course, I just thought he
was a con man. He was just trying his hardest
to look put on a good face.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Now, speaking of bad people, dully done. The pedophile, Yes,
now this is one that you should be very proud
of finding playing the part and find finding him. Do
you want to tell us a story about that? Because
he was the Australia's most wanted pedophile.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
He was at the time, and he had fled the
country with the full knowledge that he was wanted. And
we got a tip off that he was in Honduras
and that his passport was up for renewal. So therefore
we knew we probably wouldn't he wasn't going to go
to this Straandon embassy to get it renewed, we didn't think,
(29:16):
so we had the were of the opinion he's probably
not going to go anywhere. He'll probably stay there. Now
you might find this slightly historical, but the police apparently
didn't have the resources to go, and.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Lise, I will not have you criticized police on my
catch killers. And that's really and.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
No because and I get it, but you know, sixty
minutes had the resources. And we put a woman on
the ground who a producer and she could speak Spanish
and she Portuguese whatever the language is. But she got
on the ground and just went village by village, bus
by bus and tracked him down. And then we had
(29:59):
to to get her to film him, so she had
to have someone help her lure him into a meeting
where she could film him without him knowing. Then we
had to send that film back to the police here
to say that's him, this is him, no doubt. And
it was like, yes, that's him, Okay, well we'll go
and get him. Who wants to come, But the AFP,
(30:26):
I think the New Southwest Police, but the DEA, the
Department of the Drug Enforcement Agency from America had to
come because to get him out of Honduras into America
where he could be extradited was their role. So we
get over there and of course all these people waiting
for us to bring him in, which we did. So
(30:50):
we brought him. We lured him in ya someone who
was offering him a business opportunity to a hotel. And
it was so funny because we all gathered the cops
and are still gathered in a room beforehand and discussed
how we're going to do this and what we wanted
to achieve, and and an agreement with them that you know,
(31:10):
we could given we found the bloke, can we film him?
Is that all right? And and but we had to
be cognizant of the law, and they have a job
and the whole point is to get him. So we
can't let this bloke obviously slip through our things and
they miss him. That would be a travesty. So we
(31:31):
did all that. We had the conversation and then the
agreed line from me because somebody had your pieces in it.
How long are you going to keep running for mister Dunn,
which meant he's about to go and put his hand
on the doorknob and leave the room the hotel room.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
That was okay, that's it.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
And so but I was saying, how was that Dolly
Dunn's been lured up to this? Hotel room and the
person gets a call. We organized call for him to
say get out, and he goes, oh, I've just got
to pop down on the lobby quickly he goes, he
leaves the room, and Dolly goes okay. And Dolly's got
a scotch and he's on the lounge and he's got
a cigarette and he goes, okay, yeah, and he's looking
(32:14):
around because we've got cameras in the room we can
watch him and so. And then we've got a connecting room.
So we come through the connecting room door. And I
can't imagine, but Doty's done, must have thought. But he
was pretty on it, you know. I could see he
was I was more nervous than him, you know. And
you could see he was switching. He was like trying
(32:35):
to work out, Okay, how am I going to get
out of here? So he was headed trying to head
for the door, and I can't stop him, of course,
But it was a bizarre scenario.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
For him and the crime. He was a teacher, maris.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Brothers, he was, yes, and he is his school boys.
He was filming young men, young boys and all that
sort of stuff. And the evidence was all there, but
it was well, I just said, it was a strange
business going out and getting this this guy this big.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Well when because he was he was on the run.
I think it all blew up in the police Royal
commissioned where it came out and yeah, but that was
that was a good get So I like that. I
like those stories. That's where about that. Yeah, yeah, that's
where the media are doing well.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Well, it is where media can do well, and it
was It doesn't happen like that very often, but it
was a great cooperation as well. We weren't blocked. I
think it was accepted that might as well use sixty
minutes resources if that's the way it's going.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
To I've always and I do understand you're going to
protect the integrity of investigations and all that, but there's
so many opportunities where the media can help. And I
think the police are slowly coming round to the fact that, yeah,
like we've podcast teachers, pat that type of thing. They've
got to open the doors up that. Yeah, if we're
(33:58):
trying to solve something, we got to rely on the community,
and the community might be in your case, it was
the media.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, And I think look, we all have to be
cognizant of the law, and we do. You know, if
we're really about getting you know, the bad guy or
woman out, then we do have to let the police
you take control. But in this scenario, I guess it's
because we invested heavily. We put someone on the ground
(34:25):
for a month, we tracked them down, we did the
whole thing, and then we said to the police, you know,
we're o and they were very they were very understanding there.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, that worked out. Well. You also went into Camp X, right, Well, yeah,
David Hicks's help y obey.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
This is this little slash of paradise in Cuba was
the Americans run and it you know, you land there
and it's it's totally control by you know, authorities. But
you go into town and it's all it's a little America,
you know, it's it's you can get your hamburgers and
(35:08):
pizzas and beers and everything like that. But then you
just up the road is this horrific place.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Just describe it.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Well, the first incarnation of Camp X was we drove
around and they had a lot of because it came
out of really nine to eleven happening and they were
bringing what they perceived as terrorists from all over the world. Really, yeah,
And David Hicks got caught up. He was in Afghanistan
(35:39):
and he's an Australian who you know. I think he
said he was troubled or always trying to find himself,
I think really to be fair to him, and found
himself in this situation. But he when I when I
went there, it was it just looks like it was
all barbed wired and netted off. But you look in
(36:01):
and just lots of orange jumpsuits, goggles quite often, you know,
chains and whatever out in the open. Really a bit
of a tin shed occasionally for some shelter. It was.
It was pretty confronting. It was a pretty rough place.
There was no there was not going to be. As
(36:21):
they said to me, there are no medium security terrorists,
so there will be There will be no medium security here.
And I think America in particular was angry. They were
not in the.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Mood to be no half measures.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
It was people would argue, not even the mood to
be humane. So it was pretty out there. So the
next time we went, I went one time. Next time
they'd improved facilities because the world was starting to come
down on them because not everybody was guilty, it turns out.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
And that blew up. There was stuff that was was
uncovered the way the guards were treating some of the prisoners.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
But you can be held and it still can be
held there without charge forever. That's well, that's the argument
for the rest of the world. And we get we
get that. You know, you don't much like these people,
but you have to have evidence to hold people. And anyway,
as we know, David Hicks came home. But yeah, I
(37:19):
this was this was a place where there was no forgiveness.
There will be no forgiveness in this joint. This was tough.
This was hard. This was to show the world, no,
we don't put up with.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Any of that. How we're going to react. Did you
did you report on nine eleven or in any capacity?
Speaker 2 (37:39):
I wasn't. I didn't get across there. I came over
later because some Australians were caught in the Twin Towers. Yeah,
and interviewed some of the people or a particular person
who had to run for their lives down that I
think I'm not sure which tar, but it's you know,
that was something wasn't that was. I actually was in
(38:02):
a hotel in my bed in Melbourne and had the
news on and I thought, what's what's that? But when
I saw the second jet go into the Second Tower
without change, the world didn't. Yeah, that was that was
I think we all felt unsettled by that. You know,
it was suddenly like, oh, if that could happened in America,
(38:23):
And of course we did see some you know, ripple
effects of that.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
What about you spent time in Afghanistan. What's it like
for you going into it like a war zone?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Well, the first time it was the Taliban was fighting
the Northern Alliance as it was called, so we'd gone
in there to see it's a it's a it's a
bizarre business because Afghanistan is very beautiful, you know, the
Hindu Kush, the mountains, everything is quite wonderful, and yet
(38:59):
there it always felt like it was could erupt at
any time. They didn't much like women, but they hate
them a whole lot more now, but you know, they
tolerated me. We were constantly trying to find the front line,
which was you know, well where is this war? And
we'd hooked up with this warlord who had been well
(39:23):
educated in America in the UK, and you know, his
father had handed down, you know, the Warlord title. He'd
built this big pink eagle up on a mountain which
you could call you crawl up into and sit on
his rugs and drink. I'm not sure if it was tea.
It's a very you know, there's a lot of hypocrisy.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
I think, how did you find yourself like from a
personal point of view, being in those environments? So were
you worried that the whole time?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Or did you I was the first time around. I
was particularly naive. So we're walking too, we're walking to
watch and we were told we'd be you know, we
finally found the line. But we're walking to a place
down towards this bridge, and we were told, you know, okay,
this is where we might be able to get some shots.
Walking with some soldiers down there, and then suddenly there's
(40:11):
this gunfire going off and everybody hits the deck except
I go, what was that which was appalling? In grand
high sight? Glorius hussit hindsight, you know, And Ben, who
was now my partner, he was this hand pulled me
into the ditch and said get down like you dummy.
(40:34):
And then of course suddenly I became very aware oh yeah.
Suddenly I became very weare they shooting get us? Because
we were told that the tripod we had looked a
bit like a rock a pearl pro pearl grenade, you know,
So it was.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Like, did you give the tripod to Ben to carry?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
You're here?
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Well, Vera was trying to do a piece camera and
I noticed all our soldiers and including Ben others, all
hiding behind running and hiding behind wall that I was
not behind. So I learn pretty quickly ignorance can Oh
it saved me. It saved me totally, because I'm not
even sure I would have gotten out of the car.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
But like just so so many experiences like and on
an aircraft carry of the use aircraft carry five five
hundred people on the ship. What was that like?
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Oh quite something. We're just getting on is quite the trick.
So you get on this sea too or whatever. It's
a it's an aircraft that lands on the deck that
brings you in. But they tell you and you've got
to be aware of it that we are. It's it's
it's kind of like a crash landing. So you come
in and but we we rev up as we come
down because if we miss the toe rap it's supposed
(41:46):
to collect us. We've got to be able to take
off and go over the edge and get airborne, so
we can't afford to pull the engines down. We're actually
going to be going harder faster as we're coming in.
And that, to me, it was like, you are kidding me,
and you know how you're ready for that crash? Oh
and I did that twice. I did it on a
(42:07):
couple of aircraft carriers and to me was like, what
am I doing? But anyway, Yes, a floating city. That
is exactly what they are. It's amazing. And all those
fighter jets, you know, as they've all been sent off,
it is you are. That is a battle zone right
there in the sea.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
Just a floating war machine.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
It is. It is. It's very testosterone. It's a very
you know, I figure I'm a very much a woman
because I'm like, actually, that's not fair to the women
of the world, because let's just talking about me. I'm like,
oh god, what was that.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
That's a noisy plane? Wake you up in the morning.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
You never slept. Let me put it that way, because
they're they're also landing on your head underneath a great
force and they have to land the same way I
did coming in hot.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
I haven't even covered the celebrity, so that's because you've
said you don't like gossips. At the start, give us
a celebrity story. What was your will simplify it? What
was the celebrity you enjoyed most talking to.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Okay, I look for a couple and everybody will go.
Of course, George Clooney always was professional. He'd turn up
and he'd be very professional. But Dustin Hoffman was a
whole new ball game. He wouldn't go, just like he
was just having a fabulous time. And when his publicist said, look,
we probably should leave here, when you go, I'm fine.
(43:37):
And then at the end he asked for the whole
interview to be sent to him. He enjoyed it so much.
So he was old school. You know, they turn up
and they know why they're there, and they just if
they're in the mood. Admittedly, but he was great. And
probably she's coming to town, so it's a terrible story
to tell. But Mariah Carey, honest God, she kept us
(43:59):
waiting like eight hours. That's the question is why did
we wait well? Because we were constantly being told she's
just in the next room, and she's just you know,
she'll be in a minute.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
So just strung an in.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
A minute, and it went on. I left my hotel
room at like five in the afternoon, and when I
walked in, it was like four in the morning, and
I was setting up getting ready for breakfast, and I thought,
I just I just don't even know why, you know,
how the life goes out of you. She's arrived and
it's like, how did even get one of my finners?
(44:37):
Not one of my farmers? Hi? Hi? Just she looked
a million dollars and she tried really hard, but I
just just we could.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
All look at me, okay to get ready.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Well, she was doing other things, but I just truly
it was, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
You've said you don't enjoy.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
It's, oh, well, I think it's because of the machinery
around it.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
It's just not the celebrity, it's all the people are
around them.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
It's the whole you know, doing and throwing an agreement
and you know everybody's watching and making sure. It's just
there's I think I call it po lava, and that's
exactly what it is. There's so much polava, and in
the end, you just really want to sit down. We
all know why we're here. You're going to flog on
film or something, and I'm going to be grateful that
(45:26):
you want to talk to me, and we'll discuss a
whole lot of things that you might be okay with.
I'm not going to embarrass you. I'm not. I'm here
to make a great story. That's all I'm here to do,
and it will help sell what you've got. It seems
like so much hard work, and I don't And in
the end, you always feel like they arrive hating you
(45:48):
and they leave hating you, and.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
When they're not genuine, I'm sure it comes across and
they've just got the lip service and this is what.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Yeah, look, and I'm it's a big brush stroke I'm making.
I know because there are some very good exceptions. But
by and large, for me, these are color stories, ultimately
and nice and I think we need them.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Not your favorite, not for me. One of the one
of the stories you didn't we mentioned that before, but
was going from celebrities to a very personal thing. But
the death of your father. Do you want to just
tell us about that and why you did a story
about that, and why you considered the hardest story that
you've done, and possibly one of the most important stories.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Yes, well, my dad, who was my rock, really country
town man, genuine, trusting, caring, thoughtful bloke, dairy farmer. He
got what was pneumonia and ultimately went to hospital via
an ambulance and went into the local public hospital, was
(46:55):
treated and got through that, although there were some mistakes
while he was in there as well, like you know,
but forgivable because he didn't die. But then they moved
him to the private hospital to recuperate, and then that
is where he didn't receive his medication. He's only stroke
(47:15):
medication for the entire eight days that he was there,
because it wasn't written down. And then Dad had a
major stroke, and I just I just I just couldn't
believe that something so basic could occur. I just I
just felt, wow, you know, he'd recovered, he was doing well,
(47:42):
he was under their observation all that, and you didn't
give him his anti stroke medication. That's pretty basic anyway.
As a result of that, as a result of that,
I was pretty devastated by this fundamental error. There's this
fundament But of course I was to learn that there
were men any fundamental errors that were occurring, and before
(48:03):
I knew it, Dad was still dying. When people were nurses, doctors,
other patients were telling me their own terrible stories. Dad
hadn't even died when we were getting I'm so sorry,
you know your dad's here, and because they all knew
what had happened country town, so Dad did die. And
(48:25):
it was after that that I thought, really, why has
this occurred? Because there are really good people in those hospitals.
There are really good people trying very hard. You know,
nobody wakes up to go and do something terrible. I
get that, but I realized that the rural system was
(48:46):
broken beyond belief. But then I realized it'd been broken
for a long time. I'm just at the end of
a queue of terribleness. So I decided I should tell
the story, and I I did think about it, but
I thought, I ask other people to do this, so
I will tell my dad's story. I think it could
(49:08):
have been prevented. That's why I think Dad didn't have
to die that day. Yeah, So I told this story,
and of course got lots of other people with their
terrible stories as well. You know, ultimately, I'm not going
to compare terribleness, but I did think. I thank god
(49:29):
Dad was eighty eight and had some life, I guess,
but still, you know, my horror was it wasn't taken away.
So I told the story. The new South Wales Parliament
set up an inquiry into rural health and declared what
we all knew was appalling. Everything's terrible, you name it,
(49:53):
it's all terrible. Well it's still going on today. It's
still going on today. There were forty four recommendations of
change and the Government of today was behind all those changes,
said that was all happening. But really the rural health,
if it is a truth, if you live in a
country town, and particularly out west I mean at least
(50:14):
on the coast, people there are doctors who were happy
to go and because people like the beach or whatever,
but you cannot get staff. I then did stories out
Western it is that's almost a crime scene because of
the lack of staff, the way in which a meager
(50:37):
amount of people are expected to do, you know, an
enormous job. They're bringing in cleaners and gardeners to sit
with patients while they run to answer the phone or
to deal with somebody. Gary Jubil is just come in
because his seventy's finger or something.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
You know, it's just just is.
Speaker 2 (50:55):
A cycle of horror. And I don't know how. To me,
there seems to be an outrageous amount of money that's
already there. It's how it's being spent, is my very
humble view. And I wonder, I wonder how this can
keep going.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
Well, it's good that you put the spotlight on it
and highlight, but yeah, quite often I see where there's
situations that are bad. Light that you get the initial
response from the politicians and you get the recommendations, but
it's about implementing the recommendations in a timely manner.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Well, and that it is such a big issue, and
you know it is. It's Australia wide. You know, there's
something like seven million Australians who live in the country
who require some sort of health and if they're not
expecting to have a heart transplant up the road, they're
just expecting that somebody might be able to a there
(51:55):
will be a doctor, be somebody might be able to
give them immediate treatment and see get them to you know,
somewhere else to get them the major treatment if it
is required. They're not expecting the world. They're just expecting something,
you know, and it's just I'm shocked, constantly shocked. It's
still going on. I know that. I think the news
(52:16):
corps and the Daily Telegraph have been absolutely on it
as well of recent times. And thank god, because I
think that is what the media is.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
That is that is a role, a worthwhile role of
the media to put the spotlight on things like that.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
We all pay taxes, and the people in the country
paid taxes just like the rest of us. And when
you've got paramedics having to make a priority about I
don't know which one I can go to.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Well, we do it. We all, we all pay those
taxes and health services. It should be the measure of
society and that it shouldn't discriminate because people are in
remote locations and as you said, you're not expecting the
heart transpan out west they come to the city. But
the basic stuff.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
Just basic stuff, It would be good and people.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
It becomes problematic because if people are under stress and
they over work constantly, they're going to make mistakes and
they'll probably more than likely leave the profession.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
So they're just That's why I'm saying, you know, in
my dad's situation. That's a mistake, that's not a willful action. Well,
I didn't see it. I thought it was a bit
of an unforgivable mistake in many respects, but it was
a mistake. Nobody intends to cause harm in that profession.
But it's just it was a symptom of that which
(53:31):
is failing so many of us. And you know, if
you're in the country driving out to have a nice time,
you know, out on a farm somewhere or the vineyards
or whatever, and you have the misfortune of having something
go wrong, well you might be introduced to the country
town hospital that doesn't actually have a dog.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
Happens to our city facts.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
You venture out beyond the Blue mountains and I worry.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
Yeah, well it's something that's yeah, it does need to
be fixed. So the more people talk about it, the
more people push. But it's not about yeah, we've had
an inquiry and then recommendations unless they get implemented. And
I've seen that too many times with parliamentary inquiries.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
I can't understand why politics gets so in the way
of this stuff. I mean, of course politics runs our lives,
I know, but you know, it's just a hard and
fast fact that you know something needs to be done,
so let's do it.
Speaker 1 (54:27):
Is I just said if I can't have too ill
informed to have a political conversation. But I can't help
but think a lot of politicians are in there just
to feather their own nest and how they get re
elected the next time. And that shouldn't be what politics
is about. Politics should be doing the right thing. You're
representing the community.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
Well, look at what I do know is that votes count.
If you're not getting much joy from your local member,
change your vote.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
Yeah, well that's a way of mate, mate.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
But I think it's pretty hard for people to change votes.
Speaker 1 (54:59):
They find it hard making that count. The Under Investigation
the show which I was very fortunate enough and we
worked quite a bit on that show together. I like
the concept of the show, and I just want to
ask you a question. Maybe I might take some notes here.
You got your head around so much information I saw
when we're filming and the detail of the information. Is
(55:21):
that something that you're just naturally good at because we
would be covering one particular thing and then pile a
paper and you'd get your head around the next part.
What's where's that skill come from?
Speaker 2 (55:32):
Oh, just research, just having to just I am that
person who needs to know it all. Unfortunately, I'm grateful
for the research that's done, but I need to be
able to see the paper that you got that from,
or I need to be able to re and I
need to know the answers to a whole lot of
stuff as best I can. I go through all those
(55:56):
police documents and try and make sense of every bit
of information when we get down to doing those episodes,
in particular, because a lot of them were, you know,
from the past, and there was quite a lot of
information out there and we were trying to, as you know,
bring it forward new information. I just I don't feel
(56:20):
good if I don't think I've covered it well that
I you know, I before I came here, I reread
my book. Now that sounds ridiculous, but it was like,
oh gosh, I've got to remember what did I say?
You know, that's just me. I couldn't come here without
being ready as best I could.
Speaker 1 (56:38):
As best you could. Well, you've done pretty good. I
think it's gone pretty ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
I did write it.
Speaker 1 (56:43):
But I know what you're saying. I've been inter viewed
about the book and you write it, and I think
you get to the point where you've written the book
and you're so tired of the effort that goes into
writing the book, you just sort of push.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
And also, I'm writing another book, not about me, but
I write another book, and my head's in that book,
so you know, I do. There's a whole lot of
information I'm shifting. But anyway, yes, I must, I must.
Speaker 1 (57:09):
But that that is that is like we talk and
you've made some jokes about your career and you've been fortunate,
but my observation of it lives and picked up on
a bit of it working with you. But also just
the way that you carry yourself, you get on with people,
and that in a ruthless industry, it's not bad to
just get on with people because no one. They mightn't
(57:30):
agree with what you did or whatever, but they can't
say a bad Yeah, I'm sure there's.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
Some people way No, I think fundamentally, you know, I
like people, you like people. I like people. I think
most people are good people. You may not agree with
everything they do or say, but ultimately I like people,
and I come with good will. I don't come. I'm
(57:55):
happy to have my mind changed too by the way
I might feel like I'm not sure about you and
then come away I do feel good about you. I'm
happy to give people the benefit of the dubt. I
think that's not a bad place to be. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:09):
Well we might wrap it up here, Liz, but I've
got to go. This is awkward. Okay, this is life. Yes, Liz,
the time we've run there. Okay, I'm Gary Jubilin, I'm
Liz Hayes, and this is I Catch Killers. Can we
finish with that? Sure, I'll do it first. I'm Gary Jubilin.
Speaker 2 (58:31):
And I'm Liz Hayes. This is I Catch Killers with
Gary Jubilin.
Speaker 1 (58:36):
Thank you. It's been a lot of fun, Liz. All
the best for you whatever you're doing. I'm sure. I
know you're busy, you're doing lots of stuff, but yeah,
you're a pleasure to work with and it's great avenue
on here.
Speaker 2 (58:48):
Thanks for coming in, No, thank you was my pleasure. Actually,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
Cheers.
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