October 13, 2025 • 53 mins
Serial predator Iain Packer murdered Emma Caldwell and raped 22 other women - and he almost got away with it.
BBC journalist Sam Poling takes Gary Jubelin inside the investigation. From the police failings and Packer’s web of lies to becoming a star witness in the murder trial and ultimately, the conviction of Packer, Sam shares the personal toll of finding justice.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:46):
I actually wish there was no need for part two
of this interview, because in part one we talked about
an investigation that resulted in Ian pack had been arrested
and convicted of the murder of Emma Caldwell and thirty
three other offenses relating to twenty to other victims who
have either been raped or assaulted. Packer was sentenced to
life in prison. That's normally when police pat themselves on
(01:09):
the back and celebrate the success. But I don't think
this investigation should be celebrated. There were failings in the
police and hopefully lessons learned. There's no higher privilege in
policing than investigating someone's murder, but that comes with responsibility
and if mistakes are made, then people need to be accountable.
(01:30):
In this part, journalist Sam Poling takes us through the
failings of the investigation and the lives that have been affected.
Sam Polling, welcome back to Eye Catch Killers for part two.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Look, it's just a sad investigation. We're talking about not
just the murder of Emma Caldwell, but all the other
women that the mpack of this monster, i'll call him
a monster. That the rapes and the assaults and everything
else that he did to all these women, and the
fact that he went on for so long. I just
(02:07):
want to make a comment up front. I think, like
from my policing career, being tasked with investigating someone's murders
an honor and a privilege, and it's something that I
don't think you can get a higher honor as a
cop being put in charge of a murder investigation. But
with that comes an accountability and I've got to say
(02:30):
I was shocked and disappointed when I heard things lines
of inquiry that weren't followed up, and my reading of
the reasons that they weren't followed up in regards to
Ian Packer when they were concentrating on the other lines
of inquiry. And I probably should put a disclaimer here
because you might not be aware of my policing career,
(02:52):
but I was criticized on a high profile investigation about
decisions I made and things I did. My position on
that and that was what ended my career. My position
on that is that we should be accountable, and I'm
calling for a public inquiry and I want the truth
to come out because all the facts haven't come out
on this matter. So I just want to address anyone
(03:15):
that goes, well, who's this jubilant character talking about police
stuffing up an investigation? But can I say this, I
wish you were looking at the investigation, and I would
accept if I'd done something wrong that we learn from it,
or whoever's done something wrong learn from it. But it's
too important.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Well, I think I mean what I would say to
that is, I'm glad you want accountability. I get asked
to talk about this case all the time, almost on
a weekly basis. I get an approach, will you do
an interviewee to this, and I say no, I find
it very difficult to talk about It may not look
at it may not sound it, but I find it
(03:57):
very difficult to talk about, which we may come onto
the reasons why I later, when you asked me to
do this interview, my immediate reaction was no. The name
I catch killers to me, I felt was there was
a flippancy almost about it, and you know, kind of
almost provocative sensational title. I get it, That's what we do.
(04:22):
And then I looked into your background and I thought, shit,
you know, there's so many and with respect similarities in
terms of decisions made by senior officers which had repercussions
that are untold. And I thought, so my answer is
going to be no. And then I sat and listened
(04:43):
to your podcast. I then there is nothing about the
William Terroll case that I do not know. Now I
know everything about it, and I decided to say yes
to this interview because I genuinely and I've lost track
of how many of your podcast episodes I've listened to,
(05:04):
and the people that you've had on officers, criminals, forensic psychologists, experts,
you name it. And I just don't think the world realizes.
I think you do, and I think some people do,
But I don't think people understand the repercussions of what
(05:26):
happens in a merger investigation. I don't think people realize
the ripple effect, the damage that is caused, and the
decisions that are made, the effect that they have to everybody.
We are still feeling the effect of those decisions all
these years later, and I wasn't even part of the investigation,
(05:47):
and it has damaged parts of my world. It's damaged
the worlds of so many people. Women, victims, police officers,
you know, family members, people who were targeted, who were innocent.
Their lives remain ruined today. And so I'm glad to
(06:09):
hear you say and make that statement, because I think
some people will sit and say to me, Sam, why
are you doing this? Why have you said yes to this?
And why have you said yes to it to a
former police officer for whom there were question marks over
some of his decision making. So I think, A it's
a very brave thing for you to do, be very
you know, you know well done on wanting accountability for
(06:33):
what happened.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Well, I think it's important that there's accountability, and I
have no problem with it. That sends me. I'm the
only one other than people that have been affected by
members of the public. They're calling for a public inquiry.
I want the truth to come out. So the William
Turle matter, it's something that's very raw to me. I've
(06:55):
seen lives destroyed and I think it's been lost, and
I think like we've Emma's situation lost about the victim.
It was a three year old child that disappeared. Everyone
should put their differences aside and we all should be
working together to find out what happened to the child.
So what that's leading into what we're going to talk
(07:16):
about now. And I was to say shocked, Probably not
shocked because I've seen some bad policing in my time,
but just disappointed that this type of thing could happen.
And you touched it on in part one that decisions
were made based on ego. I see that in policing
(07:38):
too often. I think power that comes with policing corrupts.
It's in a hierarchical organization where you're the boss and
you can tell people what to do. I think that
corrupts and I think egos get bruised and we should
put egos aside and the most important thing victims. But look,
(07:59):
it's not about my journey. But thank you for saying that,
and I'm glad I raised it because it was the
elephant in the room. I probably should have raised it
the start, but I wanted to put it out there,
and I invite scrutiny on everything I've done in policing.
Getting back to we're going to talk about the trial
(08:22):
towards the end, but more importantly the type of information.
So after a point in time, a police officer got
in contact with you, you kept looking into the investigation.
And the police officer was Stuart Hall that got in
contact with you. I think it was a text in
twenty twenty three. And do you want to talk about
(08:44):
what Stuart Hall said to you, who he is and
how he fits into the investigation. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
So by this point, Ian Park has been arrested and
charged with multiple offenses. Right, So he's arrested and he's
charged with forty six offenses twenty eight victims. There's a
charge of murder, rape, sexual assault, abduction. So the case
is now live right, this is active, so I'm having
(09:11):
to be very very careful as to who I can
talk to and what they can tell me, etc. And
it's likely that these people are going to be witnesses.
It's likely I'm going to be a witness. So it's very,
very difficult to try and get people to talk to me.
And I had heard of a man called Stuart Hall.
He was a detective constable in the investigation which looked
(09:32):
into Emma's murder. So there were two investigations, the overt investigation,
which was the murger investigation into Emma, and then there
was a covert inquiry which was looking into these Turkish men.
And Stuart Hall was on the overt inquiry looking into
Emma's murder. And I had met with the family liaison
officer for the Caldwell family and telling me all about
(09:53):
his work. And it was only as we left and
I was just actually about to get my car when
he said to me, listen, you've got to talk to
cable guard. And I was like, who's cable guy and
he said, Stuart Hall. He's cable guy. He knows everything
about the case. And I was like, well, I'd heard
of Stuart Hall. I've seen his name on statements, but
I didn't know anything more than that. So tried to
(10:14):
get hold of him. He was still serving and I
was like, okay, fine, And then word came to me
Stewart will never talk to you. He's not in a
great place, doesn't want to talk, he's now just retired.
He'll never He'll never talk to you. And then one day, yeah,
I get my phone goes and it's a text from
It's a Facebook Messenger text and the profile just said
(10:36):
Stuart Hall and it just said TV Sampoling And I
messaged back, please tell me you are who I think
you are, because I mean, he was gold to me.
If he knew who the you know, if he knew
who the killer was back in two thousand and five
and the police let him go, what how why? Like
(10:56):
you know, he was the key for me. And I
remember driving on the motorway leaving this voice note saying, look,
you need to be the Stewel I'm looking for. And
he agreed to meet with me, and I met with
him and he said, I will never go public. I
will never tell you my story. It's damaged me all
these years, It destroyed me, but he agreed to tell
me a story. And his story basically is he has
(11:18):
brought in on the investigation. He was brought in a
few weeks after the murder, and he's taken into the
production room on day one, right day one of him
being on this merger investigation. And you will have this,
and I'm sure in your investigations, you know, in the
production room they have photos on the wall of all
the exhibits and the murder weapon, whatever. And he sees
(11:40):
a piece of cable and he looks at the cable
and that he says, what's that? And they said, well,
that was found around Emma's neck, all right, okay, And
he recognizes the cable and he says, that's a speaker cable,
but it's weird because it's burned at the ends, and
speaker cable doesn't burn because not enough voltage goes through
speaker cable. And and he's thinking to himself, that's been
(12:02):
used in a sign. And I'll bet you that's been
used in a neon sign. Because Stuart Hall, prior to
becoming a police officer, was a neon sign makeup, So
what what there is? He knew everything about neon signs well.
He then goes out and speaks to a woman and
she says, well, I was raped by a guy in
(12:25):
a van and he says, yeah, okay, but do you
know anything about the mccoldall, well, no, I don't. But
there was a man in a van and he raped
Emma and he also abducted a friend of mine. And
this this, this man's really important. Well do you remember
his name or the registration? No, but I remember the
sign on his van looked like it had red, yellow
and blue stripes on or something like he was a
(12:47):
paintral decorator something like that. That night, a van is
stopped in the city center of Glasgow and but just
by cops doing looks stop and you know, do you
know anything have you seen the missing women? And this
guy in the van says, don't know anything about it,
don't use these women, don't like prostitutes. He's really derogatory
(13:08):
about them. And he says, but you know, take my number,
you know, you've got my details, and they say that's fine,
And it comes through on the radio that a man
in a van has been stopped who's used disparaging language
about the women and the van, that he's driving is
a neon sign erecting van Stuart Hall. Hear's this, thinks
(13:32):
what a coincidence. So here he gets the task to
go and go and speak to Ian Packer. And he
is the first cop to go and speak to Ian Packer.
And he interviews him as a witness. Right, so there's
no rights being read that he's not cautioned. He's just
a witness. And he comes out that first interview and
(13:52):
he says it's him, he did it. I know he
did it. I will bet my life he did it.
And a Hall slowly starts to build up the picture
about Packer. Women who describe Packer, they take Stuart Hall
takes a photograph, a polaroid photograph of Stuart Hall that day,
(14:12):
and he goes around a number of women and say,
you know the guy who attacked can you pick him
out in this photo book? And he shows them photo books,
and one after the other after the other signs their
name next to Ian Packer's photograph, right repeatedly. He then
meets a woman called Pauline, and Pauline says, I was
(14:33):
I had a client and he was got really angry
one day and he took me down to a wooded area.
It's about an hour's drive, I would say. And when
I wouldn't strip, he got really aggressive and he terrified
me and he forced me to strip, and you know,
he had sex with me, and what she described was rape.
And Stuart Hall says, okay, wow, will you you show
(14:56):
us where the wooded area is? And she's not. I'm
dreadful with maps. I don't know maps, but I remember
landmarks because to survive as a prostitute, when a client
takes you away somewhere, you have to remember landmarks in
case you have to escape or they abandon you. So
she describes down the motorway, left at this roundabout, left
at the house that's got four chimneys that she wanted
to live in, left at the pallet yard, right at
(15:17):
the white cottage, get to the silver gate, and you
stop in a turning circle in the middle of a forest.
So Stuart Hall picks her up with his police colleague
and they follow the landmarks like a kind of Hansel
and Gretel trail of breadcrumbs, and they are slowly heading
down the motorway down towards England. They turn off to
the same landmarks that they had seen before. When they
(15:39):
had gone down to visit the deposition site where Emma's
body was found. And lo and behold, they arrive at
where Emma's body was found, and that's the moment that
they realize it's the Impacker. She signs her name, she says,
that's the man. This is the location that he brought me.
And that's the moment that Stuart Hall says, well, I
(16:01):
always knew beforehand that he did it, but this is it.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
So at that point in time, I would be thinking, yeah,
they red flags, or further than red flags, you'd.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Behind, I mean beyond beyond beyond red flags.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
You know.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
They have a man who admits to knowing Emma, admits
to paying Emma for sex, admits to taking Emma in
a statement six times to a wooded area, who then
describes taking this a woman to the same wooded area
and describes the woman, well, that woman was Pauline. We
then have Pauline taking other police officers Stuart Hall, down
(16:36):
to the location where she says she was taken, which
is the same place that Ian Packer saying. So everything
slowly in that moment just fits, and Stuart Hall says, Okay,
we've got to arrest him. That's it. So he reports
it in and he says, I need to speak to
the boss man and they said, well, you need to
(16:57):
phone the SiO, and he does. He phones the SiO
and he says he's he's taken us down to the woods.
We're down at the woods. He's taken us to the
deposition side and he's told let him go. He's not
our man, release him.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
So this is the s i O, the senior investigating officers,
so at the rank of superintendent in charge of the
whole investigation over investigation, and so he's told to let
him go.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
He's not a suspect and he's not our man. Let
him go, and.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
You've got Stuart Hall. But but boss, this this this.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
But but yeah. So so word has got back to
the police station that this has happened, and and you
know officers are like, well, this is going to be
great because you know we've we've got our man. Stuart
Hall goes back. He's all excited. I mean he said,
we were so excited. We knew, we knew it got
him a break.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
And then to be.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Told yeah, and then to be told old, no, release him,
you are not to charge him not to be arrested.
Let him go, and he's like shit, you know. And
then not long after that, he carries on talking to women.
He carries on showing the police photo book. More women
identify Ian Packer, more women talk about being raped, more
women talk about being sexually assaulted and abducted, and Stuart
(18:22):
Hall's got this massive, massive picture. He gets Packer back
in again. He interviews Packer three times and each time
he's like, it's just him, it's him. So by this point,
Ian Packer, right in those three interviews with Stuart Hall,
has said I don't know Emma. I don't use prostitutes.
That's interview number one. Well we know that that's a lie, right,
So Stuart Hall gets him back in a second time
(18:42):
and the interviews go and you can see them go
from I don't use prostitutes, never paid for sex, don't
know Emma. Okay, I mean I maybe have used prostitutes,
but I definitely don't know Emma. Two. Okay, I used prostitutes,
and I did know Emma, and I did pay for
sex right the way up to she was my favorite.
I would look out for every single time, and I
took it here there and everywhere, so you can see
it slowly unfolding, and Stuart Hall can see this slowly unfolding.
(19:05):
He's taken off that inquiry. And then but they have
one and I don't know what you would call it
in your world, but over here they're called ties, trace,
interview and eliminate, you know, make sure that you shut
every single door, eliminate everybody. If you cannot shut that door,
they stay in the inquiry. Well, Ian Packer. Remember they're
(19:26):
still going after the Turkish Men. So there's a problem
because Ian Packer is still a problem in this inquiry
because that door has not been shut, because they need
for him to say, Okay, yeah, I know Emma, I've
been with em at. But by this point there's only
been three statements given. He hasn't admitted this. So they
get told, these cops, other officers get told bring Ian
(19:47):
Packer back in for a statement. But it's not to
be Stuart Hall. So this other cop, David Barr, amazing cop.
And when you see the statement that Davy Bar gets off,
Ian Packer's incredible. I mean it's pages, pages and pages
and you and Ian Packer breaks like that just in
the middle of this interview. And he goes. He starts
crying and he says, yeah, okay, I did no, Emma,
(20:08):
and I have taken her to the woods, and I've
taken other women to the woods, and I took him
her there six times, and she was the first. And
that's the moment that it breaks, and Davy Barr's like, oh,
this is absolutely incredible. Problem is that the Davy says,
the senior officer had said to Davy, get Ian packer
him for a statement, tie him, trace him, interview him,
(20:32):
and eliminate him. That's all you need to do. We
need him out of this inquiry. So he's told bring
him in. And then Davy says, he's told, but he
is not a suspect in this inquiry. He's not a man.
He's not a suspect in this inquiry. Whatever he says,
doesn't matter, what he tells you, doesn't matter what he says.
He's not a suspect in this inquiry. And Davy said
(20:55):
and said to me, you know, I was so angry
at that because basically what I felt I was being
told was don't do your job. And he said, I
was going to go in there and do my job.
And if he was a suspect in this inquiry, and
he's going to be a suspect on this inquiry.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
That got to the point during and I think that
statement you were talking it was twenty seven pages long,
so a detailed statement from him, and at this point
in time, he's in as a still a witness, hasn't
been formal weeks, entered into custody or he's rights provided.
And my understanding is so David's been given those instructions
(21:28):
because I had to listen to that part backwards and
forwards listening to your podcast, because I'm thinking, no, this
can't can't have happened. But then David's during the course
of this and he's I can't eliminate this blake. He's
virtually giving himself up in the details, and then he
wants he phones the boss and says, look, I want
(21:51):
to enter him in the custody and declare him a
suspect and all the caution, cautions and protections that come
into place there, and he was told not to. And
on the reading, if I remember this right, the statements
go on detailed detail, detail, and then it gets to
be at page twenty six where you're just getting into
(22:11):
the juicy bits, and then it just basically stops. Well,
that's all I know. I didn't I didn't murder Emma Caldwell,
which yes, gives a truth to what DIVI is say.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
It's yeah, And actually I think that's the sixth statement
that that bit happens, if I remember rightly what happened.
What happens is Packer admits to taking to some woods.
He admits to taking lots of women to some woods.
He admits to taking Pauline to some woods. He admits
to the rape of Emma behind the billboards. He admits
all of this stuff, and then Davy they still need
(22:47):
to eliminate him by showing where these woods are. So
he gets pack her back and says, will you show
us and take us to these woods that you're talking about.
They pick them up, I think five o'clock one morning.
They pick them up, and Davy says, they say to Packer,
which way left or right? And every junction, which way
(23:07):
left or right? And Packer goes left here, right here,
And he tried to play silly games at the beginning,
going all right left, and they're thinking, okay, taking us
on this merry dance, you know, around the countryside, and
eventually they say to him, stop playing games left or right,
and he goes right and they turn up at the woods,
the same woods where Emma's body was found. And that's
(23:31):
when he knows that that I mean, he knew. He
already knew it was the Impacker. He knew that from
the previous statements. He knew that from Stuart Hall statements.
He knew that because Pauline had given the statement and
identified Packer and taken Stuart Hall to the woods. And
so Davy says, he phones up the roads or takes
takes back up the road and speaks to senior officers,
(23:52):
and he's told the same thing I've told you, Davy,
He'll no longer be he will not be a suspect
in this inquiry. He is not a suspect in this inquiry.
Let him go. And on the statements you can see
he's just basically gone. That's it. Packer is never spoken
to again by that inquiry ever.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Like and it sounds far fetch, but I think you've
supported in part with there is also Detective Sergeant William
Mason that is corroborating what David Barrs was saying. Also
fits into what Stuart Halls is. So I'm sitting here
and thinking why I.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Have to be fair to the police, right, I mean, look,
I'm impartial, but I have to be I have to
be fair to the police. In their initial inquiry. The
last phone call was to a Turkish Man. The ping
of the mobile phone was outside the Turkish cafe. Evidence
of rapes and sexual assaults being taken place inside that
cafe were being given to the police. And Emma's blood
(24:50):
is found in that cafe on this quilt. Right, aside
from the translations, lose the lose, these these ridiculous interpretations
from the hidden bugs, those points of fact alone would
have been enough, I think for anyone to go on. Right, Okay,
well this is you know, this is a good lead
and the strong suspects, right right. Emma by that point
(25:11):
was an injecting drug user. And remember she'd been strangled, right,
This wasn't a bloody murder. There were no blood forensics.
This was she was strangled. Okay, So the blood you
could discount the pinging of the mobile phone. So I
understand why they went down the road, the road for
a certain amount of time. But the problem was that
(25:32):
the two inquiries did not seem to be talking to
each other, so you know, the packer inquiry are going,
oh god, it must be in packer. Well, but they
discovered this covert inquiry is on going. They must have
something amazing, so they're in the dark. These cops are
in the dark, the junior cops, the detectives on the street.
The Constable's going, well, we think it's the impacker. But
(25:53):
they've got something amazing apparently, so it must be better
than what we've got and I have. And you know
you've listened to the podcast. I remember saying to Davy,
why were you not screaming this from the rooftops right
I would. I'm not a cop I.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
For you saying, because I have screened many a time
from the rooftops two people above me. And this is
why I'm doing the podcast now instead of still working.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I don't understand. I'll never understand it. There is I'll
never understand. I will never understand the world you worked in.
That that creates an environment where someone like Davy bar
someone like Stuart Hall just goes, okay, well I'll just
shut up now, because that's the hierarchy. You know, every
opinion is valid. Every opinion should be equal. And had
(26:43):
they listened to these guys, Ian Packer would have been
caught back in two thousand and five. What what what
we what we discovered? Remember, we started to speak to
women and this this just well. I tracked down women
who said, oh, bear in your mind is coming up
(27:04):
to the trial at this point. And I started to
track down women who said, look, I was also raped
by Ian Packer and I was abducted by Ian Packer,
and but like, tell me what happened. Well, he would
pick me up in his van and it was it
was it was yeah, it was a white van. And
I remember sitting thinking, no, hold on a minute, his
van's blue. What you're talking about. And I spoke to
(27:25):
another woman, Yeah, he picked me up and he raped
me and it was yeah, in his white van. And
I'm like, but his van was blue. And then I
found a receipt for the sale of his van and
the purchase of another van. And it was just a
few weeks before Emma died, before Emma was murdered, Right,
(27:48):
he had changed vans. Now I spoke to that many
women that you would either have to assume that Ian
Packer spent nearly every day in the couple of weeks
before Emma's murdered, picking up women, taking them to locations,
assaulting them, sexually assaulting them, raping them, abducting them because
(28:11):
they were describing a different color van. They were describing
the new van. Or he committed those offenses after Emma
was murdered. And then when we started I started to
drill down into the dates. They were telling me that
this was happening in two thousand and eleven and thirteen,
and fifteen and seventeen. So Emma was murdered in two
(28:33):
thousand and five. The police officers were shouting quietly that
it was Ian Packer in two thousand and five. They
weren't being heard. Actually, it was worse than that. They
were shut down, right, It wasn't that they weren't hurt.
They were shut down. And then Ian Packer just goes
on offending.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
I'm getting the saints to the type of person he
would embalden him, and the arrogance he had, like coming
to speak to you. Why wouldn't he think he could
bluffy Bluffy's way through things.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
I know two women that I have spoken to, I
have met, I am in touch with them now still
they were taken to the woods where Emma was murdered
in the years after Emma was murdered. One of the
women was taken there in the months after Emma was murdered.
(29:22):
That tells you what this man thought.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I'd say, no, I won't say unbelievable because I believe it.
And just on the issue with David Barr and Stuart Hall.
In the sentencing, the judge made a comment and I
think you can pull something out from that because I
was looking at it. Okay, this is what I've heard
on your podcast, and you backed it up very well
because you left a trial supportive trial with the evidence
(29:49):
of Detective Sergeant Willie Mason. But also the judges comment
the vital work and this is on sentencing Packer after
he's convicted of all these crimes, the vital work of
retired detective Stuart Hall and David Barr has stood the
test of time. So clearly when it went to trial,
the judges looking looking at the evidence that they've presented,
(30:11):
and the judge is saying it for one of these
So I think that's supportive of what they've said.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, and I mean Stuart Hall. I think Stuart Hall
was a witness. He was called up and recalled I
think six times.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
That's an incredible amount of time.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Unheard of, right, I mean that totally unheard off. But
because it had been so involved, and the sad thing
is that many of the women who had taken statements
from back in two thousand and five, six and seven
there died, right, So he was having to be their voices,
and he was also having to talk to his interviews
with Packer, and he was having to talk to the
evidence it gathered and the journey to the woods with
Pauline who's also since died, and so he was recalled
(30:52):
many times. And I mean Stuart Hall, yeah, I mean
just honesty personified, incredible, incredible, the kind of cop that
you want on an investigation into the merger of a
loved one, you know, rigorous, Davy Barr just doesn't take
any nonsense, just you know he's going to go for it.
And the two of them I will never ever and honestly,
(31:16):
anybody listening to this is in two minds about going
to a journalist or telling their story about a journalist.
You know, choose your journalists wisely firstly, but secondly, just
open yourselves up to them. Davy Barr and Stuart Hall
put their absolute trust and faith in me. They didn't
know me, they didn't have to do that, and I
will never be able to thank them enough ever for
(31:38):
what their testimony allowed us to do and convicted Packer
right between us, we all, but it's them. They convicted Packer,
And yeah, the judge had it right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Well yeah. The judge also made a comment in regards
to yourself at sentencing. Credit to goes to investigative journalists,
notably Sam Poling, who shone a light on your activities.
So this is him talking to Paka. So look, i'd
say it feel sweet, but it doesn't because there's such
(32:11):
a horrible crime and you touched on or not touched on,
you talked about it. How many crimes were committed after
this when police had missed the opportunity, Because that's part
of the pressure when you're investigating a homicide as well.
There's not a lot of serial killers we chase, but
you've always got to consider that. And if someone does
get away murder or a serious offense and you're not
(32:32):
doing your job and that person is out on the street,
there's other potential potential victims. And it looks in this case,
in that period of time that other women were assaulted by.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Oh, I mean he had taken his m O right.
His was the streets of Glasgow. His prey were young,
vulnerable girls, right, I mean, here's the word women, but
there were so young. The first rate that we knew
of was a fifteen year old girl who was the
sister of the sister of his girlfriend at the time,
(33:07):
and it just moved on to women who worked on
the streets. He was obsessed with pornography, obsessed with prostitutes,
and then in the latter years we discovered he had
then you know, with the the you know, sex has
gone online, sex has gone into private sex clubs, and
he was frequenting sex clubs, and there were victims there.
I mean, I just I think had he not been
caught when he was, although at nineteen years too late,
(33:30):
he would have he would have he would have carried on.
I think everybody is of that opinion. He would have
just carried on untold number of victims. I know women
that still haven't reported it, who are victims. There was
a book at a drop in center, which is a
support place for women for women who were working in prostitution,
and they had what they called the Beware Book, People
to be beware of and the impacer's name is in there.
(33:53):
It was in there repeatedly. There was police street worker
liaison officers going in and they saw the book. Nothing's happened,
you know. And the way the way that the women
were treated by the police was appalling, and the police
have since apologized. They apologized on the day of the
verdict for the way women were treated. Yeah, too little,
(34:14):
too late for these ones.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
The trial, how long did the trial run for? And
you had to give give evidence at the trial? You
became talk about getting involved, You became a witness in
the matter, a key witness in the matter. How was
that experience for you?
Speaker 2 (34:30):
That was? It was? It was horrific. The trial was
at five weeks and I was told that I was
being saved for the end because it was part of
the key witness were the interviews that I'd done with
them and what we've found out. And so I wasn't
allowed to attend the trial, which was hard after six
years of working on this investigation to not be there.
(34:50):
And so I appeared in the last couple of weeks
of the prosecution case, and it was it was. It
was honestly utterly horrific. I mean horrific in ways that
I never never anticipated it would be horrific. But yeah,
it was basically showing excerpts from the interviews that we've done,
both of the interviews and then the prosecution, you know,
(35:13):
very cleverly pulling apart Packers lies because he would deny
doing one thing, or women were describing him as oh, well,
you know, on the day that he raped me, turned
up at this brothel and he was wearing motorbike gear,
and Packer was telling the police why I didn't have
a motorbike till I was twenty whatever. And then we've
got bits of me and him talking about motorbikes and
(35:35):
all his bikes on camera, and you know, all this
kind of stuff, so that you know, and all the
lies that he was telling. So sometimes he was lying
to me and telling the police the truth, and other
times he was telling me the truth and lying to
the police, and so it was, Yeah, it was. It
was tough, very tough.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
And from like you've sign it's tough, and I think
anyone that says that it's not hard being in the
witness box. Yeah, hasn't given that the due respect deserves
to start with, because it is an intimidating place to
be and to find yourself. You've been reporting on stuff,
and for you to say it's tough because you've done
(36:12):
some pretty heavy stuff in previous inquiries and the investigations
that you've done. What was it about? Was it all
the emotion, Like you've been hanging out with the person
that's been accused of these crimes, You've spoken to the victims,
You're carrying a lot of emotional baggage when you're going
in there, and then it gets broken down to a
very analytical attack on your credibility and different things. What
(36:34):
was it about your experience giving evidence that you found
so difficult?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Well, I mean I've given evidence before. I mean my
career has been as an investigative journalist. My passion is
investigating criminals, serious and organized crime. I've given evidence in
court several times before. That doesn't feaze me. I don't
get anxious about that. This was different because I knew
everybody involved in this this. I had some friends with
(36:59):
the impacer. Don't never think that you know he was
a contact. But I spent more time with him than
I have done some of my colleagues that work in
the same unit as me. You know, we spent hours
talking about things, and and then suddenly to realize that
I felt a certain level of responsibility and guilt about
the fact that there he is sitting in the dock. Now, yes,
(37:21):
it was down to his behavior, but I felt like
I had enticed the fox, you know, and it was
it was difficult. I knew I'd got to know the women.
I mean, you don't just you don't just get to
know women. You really get to know the women. I
knew their families, and there the kids' names, their kids' birthdays.
I would drop off easter eggs, I would take them
to go and pick up the hospital appointments, and that,
(37:43):
you know, you just really invest You've got a duty
of care for all of these women, and and and
so that was such a there was such a way
of responsibility that I felt that if this case failed,
and if he didn't get guilty even on one of
the charges, that would be that would be on me.
And the reason I felt that was because throughout the trial,
my name came up over and over and over. I
(38:04):
would get texting people saying you're getting it hard in
court today. I wasn't even there. I hadn't even given evidence,
but it was basically he said she said. Packer says,
this was Sam Poland's lying. This woman says that, well,
Sam Poland persuaded her to Well, that woman's given this account,
that's because Sam Polean manipulated it. Well, this woman told
this to the police. That's because Sam Poland drove it
to the police station to give her statement. This went
(38:25):
on and on and on, and then when eventually Packer
incredibly gave evidence. I mean, he was on the stand
for nearly four days. It was his evidence was about
me and about I was a light Well, Sam Poling
manipulated when she told me to say that, well, she's lying.
It's like, this isn't about me. But suddenly it became
about me. And it got to the point I had
(38:47):
to walk out. On the third day of him given evidence,
I couldn't. It was it was, It was utterly horrific.
It was the most brutal thing that I've watched. And
to hear my name in his mouth constantly, and when
I took the stand before, when I took the stand,
and he would not look at me, would not look
at me, And that was the first time I've seen
him since since after the second interview, and he didn't
(39:12):
look at me. And then when his prosecution sat down
and the defense stood up, and then at that point,
Packer kind of turns and just looks at me with
this big smug look on his face, as if to say,
right now, now you're going to get it because my
guy's up. You know, it was just it was horrific.
I mean, it was honestly horrific, and everything was about
my reputation and my honesty. And I've worked so hard
(39:35):
my entire career sinceter, but I find difficult talk about
I've worked. I've worked so hard my entire career in
all the investigations that I've done, and I've done them
honestly and with integrity. And I've always treated everybody that
(39:58):
I've come into contact with with dignity and decency and
kindness and empathy and everything. And to sit there and
not only for me to listen to my integrity being questioned,
but for my family to read about it in the newspapers,
for my colleagues to listen to that. It got to
the point where and I still can't stand the sound
(40:20):
of my own name when you read that statement out
the judge. I just can't stand seeing my name. I
can't stand hearing my name. I can't watch the packer interviews.
I can't stand his voice. And I think that's because
of having my integrity question the way it was. But
I also think I suffer from the worst guilt of
(40:41):
for everybody guilt that not everybody got a guilty verdict
for their charges, and that's on me. I take that
as my fault because some are the ones that got
not guilty. Were some of the women that were later
women later victims, who I had said, go to the police,
and I think that was I'd manipulated outlight. I have
guilt that there is a man serving thirty six years
(41:03):
in prison where he deserves to be. But he had kids.
They didn't deserve this. He has a mom and a dad,
he has siblings. None of them did this. And these women.
One of the women and just finally about this bit,
one of the women who I was incredibly close with,
who was amazing, she took part. She's Yvonne in the documentary.
(41:24):
She's just absolutely incredible, and you know, me coming into
her life and asking her to tell me her story
has destroyed her. She slept the night before giving evidence
in a car park because she's now homeless again, and
she had got her life together. She had a little boy,
(41:45):
you know, and she's lost everything. And to know that's
on me, I feel that's on me. And that's a
really difficult place to sit here today. And that's why
I don't like talking about this case, because I feel
the weight of everybody's lives and the damage that they're
going through. Had I not done what had I not
(42:07):
done what I did, had I not been digging and
investigating and got Packer involved and all of this stuff,
their lives would have just carried on because time has passed.
It was a cold case, it was forgotten about. But
Emma needs justice and she needed justice, and Margaret needed
to know what happened to her little girl. So it's
a very difficult, difficult place to be. And it's not
(42:29):
about me. I'm not saying this is about me. It's
about all the women. But I see Stuart Hall and
I talk to him all the time, and I see
the damage that has caused officers, good officers, women who
were victims and Emma's family. You know they haven't.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Got the.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Have they got justice? Have they got peace?
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Now?
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Not at all.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Saying I am so sorry we're bringing this up, but
sorry you or I'm saying, and I'm in a position
to say because I do understand what you're talking about
everything you've mentioned there, I understand. I can relate to
aspects of what you're saying there. But you've been very
hard on yourself, that is, sadly, and coming back to
(43:19):
what we started this part, there's a responsibility and accountability
when you're investigating murders, and it does cause damage. And
I've said that, and I've had to reflect sometimes on
I'd get home and you feel like you've just run
the wrecking ball through all these people. And I'm in
touch with plenty of people that unsolved homicides, and I
(43:43):
try not to give false hope, but I steer them
in directions to this day, and I sometimes question myself,
why don't we just let it pass by? It be?
But what I'm strengthened from with all these people that
I speak to and the people I've dealt with when
in my policing career and people i'm speaking to now,
(44:03):
they can't let it be like it's the damage is
done by the person that does the crime. That's where
the damage is done and they're the sole people to
be blamed. Yeah, can I say this if you didn't
if you didn't do I'm trying to be wise and
I can help you here. If you didn't do what
(44:25):
you did, there would have been more people suffering. And
you've seen You've seen like Margaret and Willie, Emma's parents,
the pain that they've gone through. You've seen the girls
that have been victims where people don't believe them. I
think you've done more good than you've done cause damage
in the people that you've helped, And it's about getting justice.
(44:46):
Justice doesn't bring closure anytime, you native if you think, okay,
well once it found guilty, everyone's going to go out
and celebrate. It doesn't work that way in when you're
looking at murder, it's just a horrible.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
But I did. But I guess you know, you know
you're the experienced one in this. You knew that you
know that that that it doesn't bring closure. I I
kind of thought it might for some people. I didn't
realize and I and it goes back to my point
I made at the beginning of this this part of this,
you know, the second part of this chat, which is
(45:20):
I want people to know that the ripple effect, it's
it's bigger, it's wider, it's it's it's it's so much
more damaging than people will ever ever know. It doesn't
stop with a guilty vert It doesn't stop with the rest.
It doesn't stop with a guilty verdict, it doesn't stop
with a sentence. It doesn't stop. It just does not stop.
(45:41):
And yeah, I think so many lessons need to be
learned from what happened in this case. I would urge
everybody to please listen to this podcast and and and
I just you know, I know that the majority of
your guests are from law enforcement and or in that world,
and you know, take lessons from this, learn from this.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Well. I try to be selective with the people I've
get from law enforcement and the people I look up
to and the people I respect. And Yeah, what comes
out in bucket loads from you is you've got empathy
for all the people involved, all the great detectives I know,
the ones I looked up to, the ones I tried
to aspire to be, all carried that empathy. What's the
(46:21):
most important characteristic he talks to you at all. I
could just hear it in his voice. What the decent
person he was listening to your podcasts. A great police
and they're butting heads with an organization. That that's why
I like what we talked about at the start. We've
police been more accountable because gone are the days where
they can just rule the roots and nothing to see here. Man,
(46:43):
the police are got this all under hand. Just move along.
Those days are gone and people need to be accountable.
Some good has come out of this, and I've got
some comments from the judgement. I think you have encapsulated
what we're talking about here, and also the family lawyer
just one of the comments. One of this is a
(47:05):
quote from Ember's family lawyer. After the court matter. The
family's lawyer, Ama Enua, described Packer has been one of
the UK's were sex offenders and called for a robust
judge led public inquiry into the original police investigation, adding
that some officers had blood on their hands. Okay, that's
a solicit. They're always prone to make the big statements,
(47:28):
but reading between the lines, it's all about accountability and
I think with this we do need to be accountable.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yeah, and you know, I obviously approached the police officers
who were responsible for the decision making, including the SiO
of the entire case, but also the senior officer for
the covert investigation against the Turkishmen. Neither of them would
give me interviews. The statements that I got basically were
(47:56):
we await the public inquiry, and the SiO said in
I was looking forward to telling his side of the
story at the public inquiry. I look forward to that too.
Everybody is looking forward to that.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Well, there is always two sides, and I think you
balanced it out with not just straight out criticism. There
were reasons that the turkish Men were being looked at,
but in the same regards, I'm just saying from a
homicide detective, the bit of information I've got that it
was pretty strong on Pecker and that should have been
pursued to the inth degree place of Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
I just was sorry. So I just I really wanted
to say, you know, I'm not amazing. I'm not this
magical investigative journalist that just managed to get all of
this evidence right and just do the most brilliant job.
The evidence was there, right, The evidence was all that'd
love to be able to say it was me. The
(48:51):
evidence was there, it was there, Okay, you just.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
Pulled the curtain back all of it. Yeah, well, look,
I think the place So I'd like to think the
police have learned from this and like from lessons learned,
and I think the Scottish Police has apologized for the
original inquiry was handled, but that was then it was
run by Strathclyde Police which no longer. They've been taken
(49:16):
over by Scottish Police. It's just a restructure, is it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
So basically there were regional area police forces and that
became one single national force, Police Scotland.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
So yeah, we've also got a quote that attributed to
Police Scotland and McCall will, her family and many other
victims were let down by policing in two thousand and
five for what for that? We're very sorry, the force said.
I've had a police commissioner come up and apologize to
(49:47):
an indigenous community about a way of an investigation in
your serial killer was handled. And it took ten years
to get the commissioner up there, came up there and said, look,
we're sorry, we could have done things better. It doesn't
solve the problem. It doesn't fix a problem, but it
means something at least when they acknowledge. And there was
also Deputy Chief Countable bick Smith, who is a crime
(50:09):
portfolio for Scotland Police. She's also made comments I heard
towards the end of the podcast of changes that are
being made and things that they're improving on. Do you
believe that they come in the play? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Look, I think it's a different world. I think the
world has changed, and I think I think the way
that the police deal with victims of sexual offending has changed.
I think the way that police deal with women who
work within the sex trade and workers prostitutes, I think
that is changing, and I think there is perhaps a
(50:44):
kind of more of a holistic approach in terms of
law enforcement and all the agencies perhaps working together. Are
we ever going to change attitudes towards women like this? No,
I don't think so. I think there will always be
some of those voices, disrespect for, disparaging, unpleasant attitudes, archaic
(51:05):
attitudes that have got absolutely no place in today's society,
but they will always be there. I think they're getting fewer.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
Well, there's always for improvement. The impacker ended up getting
thirty or life imprisonment, which is a minimum of thirty
six years for the murder of Emma Caldwell. And I
think also was it thirty three other offenseates for twenty
(51:36):
two other victims.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
So yeah, he got thirty six years for Emma's murder
minimum before parole, and yeah, twenty two other victims he
got twenty eight years to seven currently, So yeah, the
minimum before he can get parole is thirty six years.
He will, he will undoubtedly die in prison.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
What a journey that you found your involved in. Have
have you got any other projects going at the moment?
Or he's just taking a step back. You can't see
that that kid still involved, That teenage girl that kept
hassling the BBC for a job is still there.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
But yeah, yeah, always.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Look, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, and
I appreciate your due diligence and I catch killers. You're
the first person that's said about the name. I sit
here sometimes and think it started. It started. I didn't
know what I was in for, and we're stuck with it.
But I'd like to think that the work that we
do on the podcast here, having people like yourself and
(52:40):
make people like if police are listening to this is
not about bashing police. It's about lessons learned and why
was a mistake made. If a mistake was made, what
lessons have we learned from that to prevent that type
of type of thing. And I would as this wide
wise old ex homicide detective just say this to you.
(53:01):
Be kind to yourself. What what you did is tremendous
at something you should be very proud of. And uh yeah,
there's gonna there's always going to be collateral damage when
you go hard finding out the truth of why someone's
life life has been taken.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
Thank you. I appreciate the words.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Thanks very much. All the best for the future.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Jeers hm mhm
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:46):
I actually wish there was no need for part two
of this interview, because in part one we talked about
an investigation that resulted in Ian pack had been arrested
and convicted of the murder of Emma Caldwell and thirty
three other offenses relating to twenty to other victims who
have either been raped or assaulted. Packer was sentenced to
life in prison. That's normally when police pat themselves on
(01:09):
the back and celebrate the success. But I don't think
this investigation should be celebrated. There were failings in the
police and hopefully lessons learned. There's no higher privilege in
policing than investigating someone's murder, but that comes with responsibility
and if mistakes are made, then people need to be accountable.
(01:30):
In this part, journalist Sam Poling takes us through the
failings of the investigation and the lives that have been affected.
Sam Polling, welcome back to Eye Catch Killers for part two.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Look, it's just a sad investigation. We're talking about not
just the murder of Emma Caldwell, but all the other
women that the mpack of this monster, i'll call him
a monster. That the rapes and the assaults and everything
else that he did to all these women, and the
fact that he went on for so long. I just
(02:07):
want to make a comment up front. I think, like
from my policing career, being tasked with investigating someone's murders
an honor and a privilege, and it's something that I
don't think you can get a higher honor as a
cop being put in charge of a murder investigation. But
with that comes an accountability and I've got to say
(02:30):
I was shocked and disappointed when I heard things lines
of inquiry that weren't followed up, and my reading of
the reasons that they weren't followed up in regards to
Ian Packer when they were concentrating on the other lines
of inquiry. And I probably should put a disclaimer here
because you might not be aware of my policing career,
(02:52):
but I was criticized on a high profile investigation about
decisions I made and things I did. My position on
that and that was what ended my career. My position
on that is that we should be accountable, and I'm
calling for a public inquiry and I want the truth
to come out because all the facts haven't come out
on this matter. So I just want to address anyone
(03:15):
that goes, well, who's this jubilant character talking about police
stuffing up an investigation? But can I say this, I
wish you were looking at the investigation, and I would
accept if I'd done something wrong that we learn from it,
or whoever's done something wrong learn from it. But it's
too important.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Well, I think I mean what I would say to
that is, I'm glad you want accountability. I get asked
to talk about this case all the time, almost on
a weekly basis. I get an approach, will you do
an interviewee to this, and I say no, I find
it very difficult to talk about It may not look
at it may not sound it, but I find it
(03:57):
very difficult to talk about, which we may come onto
the reasons why I later, when you asked me to
do this interview, my immediate reaction was no. The name
I catch killers to me, I felt was there was
a flippancy almost about it, and you know, kind of
almost provocative sensational title. I get it, That's what we do.
(04:22):
And then I looked into your background and I thought, shit,
you know, there's so many and with respect similarities in
terms of decisions made by senior officers which had repercussions
that are untold. And I thought, so my answer is
going to be no. And then I sat and listened
(04:43):
to your podcast. I then there is nothing about the
William Terroll case that I do not know. Now I
know everything about it, and I decided to say yes
to this interview because I genuinely and I've lost track
of how many of your podcast episodes I've listened to,
(05:04):
and the people that you've had on officers, criminals, forensic psychologists, experts,
you name it. And I just don't think the world realizes.
I think you do, and I think some people do,
But I don't think people understand the repercussions of what
(05:26):
happens in a merger investigation. I don't think people realize
the ripple effect, the damage that is caused, and the
decisions that are made, the effect that they have to everybody.
We are still feeling the effect of those decisions all
these years later, and I wasn't even part of the investigation,
(05:47):
and it has damaged parts of my world. It's damaged
the worlds of so many people. Women, victims, police officers,
you know, family members, people who were targeted, who were innocent.
Their lives remain ruined today. And so I'm glad to
(06:09):
hear you say and make that statement, because I think
some people will sit and say to me, Sam, why
are you doing this? Why have you said yes to this?
And why have you said yes to it to a
former police officer for whom there were question marks over
some of his decision making. So I think, A it's
a very brave thing for you to do, be very
you know, you know well done on wanting accountability for
(06:33):
what happened.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Well, I think it's important that there's accountability, and I
have no problem with it. That sends me. I'm the
only one other than people that have been affected by
members of the public. They're calling for a public inquiry.
I want the truth to come out. So the William
Turle matter, it's something that's very raw to me. I've
(06:55):
seen lives destroyed and I think it's been lost, and
I think like we've Emma's situation lost about the victim.
It was a three year old child that disappeared. Everyone
should put their differences aside and we all should be
working together to find out what happened to the child.
So what that's leading into what we're going to talk
(07:16):
about now. And I was to say shocked, Probably not
shocked because I've seen some bad policing in my time,
but just disappointed that this type of thing could happen.
And you touched it on in part one that decisions
were made based on ego. I see that in policing
(07:38):
too often. I think power that comes with policing corrupts.
It's in a hierarchical organization where you're the boss and
you can tell people what to do. I think that
corrupts and I think egos get bruised and we should
put egos aside and the most important thing victims. But look,
(07:59):
it's not about my journey. But thank you for saying that,
and I'm glad I raised it because it was the
elephant in the room. I probably should have raised it
the start, but I wanted to put it out there,
and I invite scrutiny on everything I've done in policing.
Getting back to we're going to talk about the trial
(08:22):
towards the end, but more importantly the type of information.
So after a point in time, a police officer got
in contact with you, you kept looking into the investigation.
And the police officer was Stuart Hall that got in
contact with you. I think it was a text in
twenty twenty three. And do you want to talk about
(08:44):
what Stuart Hall said to you, who he is and
how he fits into the investigation. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
So by this point, Ian Park has been arrested and
charged with multiple offenses. Right, So he's arrested and he's
charged with forty six offenses twenty eight victims. There's a
charge of murder, rape, sexual assault, abduction. So the case
is now live right, this is active, so I'm having
(09:11):
to be very very careful as to who I can
talk to and what they can tell me, etc. And
it's likely that these people are going to be witnesses.
It's likely I'm going to be a witness. So it's very,
very difficult to try and get people to talk to me.
And I had heard of a man called Stuart Hall.
He was a detective constable in the investigation which looked
(09:32):
into Emma's murder. So there were two investigations, the overt investigation,
which was the murger investigation into Emma, and then there
was a covert inquiry which was looking into these Turkish men.
And Stuart Hall was on the overt inquiry looking into
Emma's murder. And I had met with the family liaison
officer for the Caldwell family and telling me all about
(09:53):
his work. And it was only as we left and
I was just actually about to get my car when
he said to me, listen, you've got to talk to
cable guard. And I was like, who's cable guy and
he said, Stuart Hall. He's cable guy. He knows everything
about the case. And I was like, well, I'd heard
of Stuart Hall. I've seen his name on statements, but
I didn't know anything more than that. So tried to
(10:14):
get hold of him. He was still serving and I
was like, okay, fine, And then word came to me
Stewart will never talk to you. He's not in a
great place, doesn't want to talk, he's now just retired.
He'll never He'll never talk to you. And then one day, yeah,
I get my phone goes and it's a text from
It's a Facebook Messenger text and the profile just said
(10:36):
Stuart Hall and it just said TV Sampoling And I
messaged back, please tell me you are who I think
you are, because I mean, he was gold to me.
If he knew who the you know, if he knew
who the killer was back in two thousand and five
and the police let him go, what how why? Like
(10:56):
you know, he was the key for me. And I
remember driving on the motorway leaving this voice note saying, look,
you need to be the Stewel I'm looking for. And
he agreed to meet with me, and I met with
him and he said, I will never go public. I
will never tell you my story. It's damaged me all
these years, It destroyed me, but he agreed to tell
me a story. And his story basically is he has
(11:18):
brought in on the investigation. He was brought in a
few weeks after the murder, and he's taken into the
production room on day one, right day one of him
being on this merger investigation. And you will have this,
and I'm sure in your investigations, you know, in the
production room they have photos on the wall of all
the exhibits and the murder weapon, whatever. And he sees
(11:40):
a piece of cable and he looks at the cable
and that he says, what's that? And they said, well,
that was found around Emma's neck, all right, okay, And
he recognizes the cable and he says, that's a speaker cable,
but it's weird because it's burned at the ends, and
speaker cable doesn't burn because not enough voltage goes through
speaker cable. And and he's thinking to himself, that's been
(12:02):
used in a sign. And I'll bet you that's been
used in a neon sign. Because Stuart Hall, prior to
becoming a police officer, was a neon sign makeup, So
what what there is? He knew everything about neon signs well.
He then goes out and speaks to a woman and
she says, well, I was raped by a guy in
(12:25):
a van and he says, yeah, okay, but do you
know anything about the mccoldall, well, no, I don't. But
there was a man in a van and he raped
Emma and he also abducted a friend of mine. And
this this, this man's really important. Well do you remember
his name or the registration? No, but I remember the
sign on his van looked like it had red, yellow
and blue stripes on or something like he was a
(12:47):
paintral decorator something like that. That night, a van is
stopped in the city center of Glasgow and but just
by cops doing looks stop and you know, do you
know anything have you seen the missing women? And this
guy in the van says, don't know anything about it,
don't use these women, don't like prostitutes. He's really derogatory
(13:08):
about them. And he says, but you know, take my number,
you know, you've got my details, and they say that's fine,
And it comes through on the radio that a man
in a van has been stopped who's used disparaging language
about the women and the van, that he's driving is
a neon sign erecting van Stuart Hall. Hear's this, thinks
(13:32):
what a coincidence. So here he gets the task to
go and go and speak to Ian Packer. And he
is the first cop to go and speak to Ian Packer.
And he interviews him as a witness. Right, so there's
no rights being read that he's not cautioned. He's just
a witness. And he comes out that first interview and
(13:52):
he says it's him, he did it. I know he
did it. I will bet my life he did it.
And a Hall slowly starts to build up the picture
about Packer. Women who describe Packer, they take Stuart Hall
takes a photograph, a polaroid photograph of Stuart Hall that day,
(14:12):
and he goes around a number of women and say,
you know the guy who attacked can you pick him
out in this photo book? And he shows them photo books,
and one after the other after the other signs their
name next to Ian Packer's photograph, right repeatedly. He then
meets a woman called Pauline, and Pauline says, I was
(14:33):
I had a client and he was got really angry
one day and he took me down to a wooded area.
It's about an hour's drive, I would say. And when
I wouldn't strip, he got really aggressive and he terrified
me and he forced me to strip, and you know,
he had sex with me, and what she described was rape.
And Stuart Hall says, okay, wow, will you you show
(14:56):
us where the wooded area is? And she's not. I'm
dreadful with maps. I don't know maps, but I remember
landmarks because to survive as a prostitute, when a client
takes you away somewhere, you have to remember landmarks in
case you have to escape or they abandon you. So
she describes down the motorway, left at this roundabout, left
at the house that's got four chimneys that she wanted
to live in, left at the pallet yard, right at
(15:17):
the white cottage, get to the silver gate, and you
stop in a turning circle in the middle of a forest.
So Stuart Hall picks her up with his police colleague
and they follow the landmarks like a kind of Hansel
and Gretel trail of breadcrumbs, and they are slowly heading
down the motorway down towards England. They turn off to
the same landmarks that they had seen before. When they
(15:39):
had gone down to visit the deposition site where Emma's
body was found. And lo and behold, they arrive at
where Emma's body was found, and that's the moment that
they realize it's the Impacker. She signs her name, she says,
that's the man. This is the location that he brought me.
And that's the moment that Stuart Hall says, well, I
(16:01):
always knew beforehand that he did it, but this is it.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
So at that point in time, I would be thinking, yeah,
they red flags, or further than red flags, you'd.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Behind, I mean beyond beyond beyond red flags.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
You know.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
They have a man who admits to knowing Emma, admits
to paying Emma for sex, admits to taking Emma in
a statement six times to a wooded area, who then
describes taking this a woman to the same wooded area
and describes the woman, well, that woman was Pauline. We
then have Pauline taking other police officers Stuart Hall, down
(16:36):
to the location where she says she was taken, which
is the same place that Ian Packer saying. So everything
slowly in that moment just fits, and Stuart Hall says, Okay,
we've got to arrest him. That's it. So he reports
it in and he says, I need to speak to
the boss man and they said, well, you need to
(16:57):
phone the SiO, and he does. He phones the SiO
and he says he's he's taken us down to the woods.
We're down at the woods. He's taken us to the
deposition side and he's told let him go. He's not
our man, release him.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
So this is the s i O, the senior investigating officers,
so at the rank of superintendent in charge of the
whole investigation over investigation, and so he's told to let
him go.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
He's not a suspect and he's not our man. Let
him go, and.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
You've got Stuart Hall. But but boss, this this this.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
But but yeah. So so word has got back to
the police station that this has happened, and and you
know officers are like, well, this is going to be
great because you know we've we've got our man. Stuart
Hall goes back. He's all excited. I mean he said,
we were so excited. We knew, we knew it got
him a break.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
And then to be.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Told yeah, and then to be told old, no, release him,
you are not to charge him not to be arrested.
Let him go, and he's like shit, you know. And
then not long after that, he carries on talking to women.
He carries on showing the police photo book. More women
identify Ian Packer, more women talk about being raped, more
women talk about being sexually assaulted and abducted, and Stuart
(18:22):
Hall's got this massive, massive picture. He gets Packer back
in again. He interviews Packer three times and each time
he's like, it's just him, it's him. So by this point,
Ian Packer, right in those three interviews with Stuart Hall,
has said I don't know Emma. I don't use prostitutes.
That's interview number one. Well we know that that's a lie, right,
So Stuart Hall gets him back in a second time
(18:42):
and the interviews go and you can see them go
from I don't use prostitutes, never paid for sex, don't
know Emma. Okay, I mean I maybe have used prostitutes,
but I definitely don't know Emma. Two. Okay, I used prostitutes,
and I did know Emma, and I did pay for
sex right the way up to she was my favorite.
I would look out for every single time, and I
took it here there and everywhere, so you can see
it slowly unfolding, and Stuart Hall can see this slowly unfolding.
(19:05):
He's taken off that inquiry. And then but they have
one and I don't know what you would call it
in your world, but over here they're called ties, trace,
interview and eliminate, you know, make sure that you shut
every single door, eliminate everybody. If you cannot shut that door,
they stay in the inquiry. Well, Ian Packer. Remember they're
(19:26):
still going after the Turkish Men. So there's a problem
because Ian Packer is still a problem in this inquiry
because that door has not been shut, because they need
for him to say, Okay, yeah, I know Emma, I've
been with em at. But by this point there's only
been three statements given. He hasn't admitted this. So they
get told, these cops, other officers get told bring Ian
(19:47):
Packer back in for a statement. But it's not to
be Stuart Hall. So this other cop, David Barr, amazing cop.
And when you see the statement that Davy Bar gets off,
Ian Packer's incredible. I mean it's pages, pages and pages
and you and Ian Packer breaks like that just in
the middle of this interview. And he goes. He starts
crying and he says, yeah, okay, I did no, Emma,
(20:08):
and I have taken her to the woods, and I've
taken other women to the woods, and I took him
her there six times, and she was the first. And
that's the moment that it breaks, and Davy Barr's like, oh,
this is absolutely incredible. Problem is that the Davy says,
the senior officer had said to Davy, get Ian packer
him for a statement, tie him, trace him, interview him,
(20:32):
and eliminate him. That's all you need to do. We
need him out of this inquiry. So he's told bring
him in. And then Davy says, he's told, but he
is not a suspect in this inquiry. He's not a man.
He's not a suspect in this inquiry. Whatever he says,
doesn't matter, what he tells you, doesn't matter what he says.
He's not a suspect in this inquiry. And Davy said
(20:55):
and said to me, you know, I was so angry
at that because basically what I felt I was being
told was don't do your job. And he said, I
was going to go in there and do my job.
And if he was a suspect in this inquiry, and
he's going to be a suspect on this inquiry.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
That got to the point during and I think that
statement you were talking it was twenty seven pages long,
so a detailed statement from him, and at this point
in time, he's in as a still a witness, hasn't
been formal weeks, entered into custody or he's rights provided.
And my understanding is so David's been given those instructions
(21:28):
because I had to listen to that part backwards and
forwards listening to your podcast, because I'm thinking, no, this
can't can't have happened. But then David's during the course
of this and he's I can't eliminate this blake. He's
virtually giving himself up in the details, and then he
wants he phones the boss and says, look, I want
(21:51):
to enter him in the custody and declare him a
suspect and all the caution, cautions and protections that come
into place there, and he was told not to. And
on the reading, if I remember this right, the statements
go on detailed detail, detail, and then it gets to
be at page twenty six where you're just getting into
(22:11):
the juicy bits, and then it just basically stops. Well,
that's all I know. I didn't I didn't murder Emma Caldwell,
which yes, gives a truth to what DIVI is say.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
It's yeah, And actually I think that's the sixth statement
that that bit happens, if I remember rightly what happened.
What happens is Packer admits to taking to some woods.
He admits to taking lots of women to some woods.
He admits to taking Pauline to some woods. He admits
to the rape of Emma behind the billboards. He admits
all of this stuff, and then Davy they still need
(22:47):
to eliminate him by showing where these woods are. So
he gets pack her back and says, will you show
us and take us to these woods that you're talking about.
They pick them up, I think five o'clock one morning.
They pick them up, and Davy says, they say to Packer,
which way left or right? And every junction, which way
(23:07):
left or right? And Packer goes left here, right here,
And he tried to play silly games at the beginning,
going all right left, and they're thinking, okay, taking us
on this merry dance, you know, around the countryside, and
eventually they say to him, stop playing games left or right,
and he goes right and they turn up at the woods,
the same woods where Emma's body was found. And that's
(23:31):
when he knows that that I mean, he knew. He
already knew it was the Impacker. He knew that from
the previous statements. He knew that from Stuart Hall statements.
He knew that because Pauline had given the statement and
identified Packer and taken Stuart Hall to the woods. And
so Davy says, he phones up the roads or takes
takes back up the road and speaks to senior officers,
(23:52):
and he's told the same thing I've told you, Davy,
He'll no longer be he will not be a suspect
in this inquiry. He is not a suspect in this inquiry.
Let him go. And on the statements you can see
he's just basically gone. That's it. Packer is never spoken
to again by that inquiry ever.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Like and it sounds far fetch, but I think you've
supported in part with there is also Detective Sergeant William
Mason that is corroborating what David Barrs was saying. Also
fits into what Stuart Halls is. So I'm sitting here
and thinking why I.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Have to be fair to the police, right, I mean, look,
I'm impartial, but I have to be I have to
be fair to the police. In their initial inquiry. The
last phone call was to a Turkish Man. The ping
of the mobile phone was outside the Turkish cafe. Evidence
of rapes and sexual assaults being taken place inside that
cafe were being given to the police. And Emma's blood
(24:50):
is found in that cafe on this quilt. Right, aside
from the translations, lose the lose, these these ridiculous interpretations
from the hidden bugs, those points of fact alone would
have been enough, I think for anyone to go on. Right, Okay,
well this is you know, this is a good lead
and the strong suspects, right right. Emma by that point
(25:11):
was an injecting drug user. And remember she'd been strangled, right,
This wasn't a bloody murder. There were no blood forensics.
This was she was strangled. Okay, So the blood you
could discount the pinging of the mobile phone. So I
understand why they went down the road, the road for
a certain amount of time. But the problem was that
(25:32):
the two inquiries did not seem to be talking to
each other, so you know, the packer inquiry are going,
oh god, it must be in packer. Well, but they
discovered this covert inquiry is on going. They must have
something amazing, so they're in the dark. These cops are
in the dark, the junior cops, the detectives on the street.
The Constable's going, well, we think it's the impacker. But
(25:53):
they've got something amazing apparently, so it must be better
than what we've got and I have. And you know
you've listened to the podcast. I remember saying to Davy,
why were you not screaming this from the rooftops right
I would. I'm not a cop I.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
For you saying, because I have screened many a time
from the rooftops two people above me. And this is
why I'm doing the podcast now instead of still working.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I don't understand. I'll never understand it. There is I'll
never understand. I will never understand the world you worked in.
That that creates an environment where someone like Davy bar
someone like Stuart Hall just goes, okay, well I'll just
shut up now, because that's the hierarchy. You know, every
opinion is valid. Every opinion should be equal. And had
(26:43):
they listened to these guys, Ian Packer would have been
caught back in two thousand and five. What what what
we what we discovered? Remember, we started to speak to
women and this this just well. I tracked down women
who said, oh, bear in your mind is coming up
(27:04):
to the trial at this point. And I started to
track down women who said, look, I was also raped
by Ian Packer and I was abducted by Ian Packer,
and but like, tell me what happened. Well, he would
pick me up in his van and it was it
was it was yeah, it was a white van. And
I remember sitting thinking, no, hold on a minute, his
van's blue. What you're talking about. And I spoke to
(27:25):
another woman, Yeah, he picked me up and he raped
me and it was yeah, in his white van. And
I'm like, but his van was blue. And then I
found a receipt for the sale of his van and
the purchase of another van. And it was just a
few weeks before Emma died, before Emma was murdered, Right,
(27:48):
he had changed vans. Now I spoke to that many
women that you would either have to assume that Ian
Packer spent nearly every day in the couple of weeks
before Emma's murdered, picking up women, taking them to locations,
assaulting them, sexually assaulting them, raping them, abducting them because
(28:11):
they were describing a different color van. They were describing
the new van. Or he committed those offenses after Emma
was murdered. And then when we started I started to
drill down into the dates. They were telling me that
this was happening in two thousand and eleven and thirteen,
and fifteen and seventeen. So Emma was murdered in two
(28:33):
thousand and five. The police officers were shouting quietly that
it was Ian Packer in two thousand and five. They
weren't being heard. Actually, it was worse than that. They
were shut down, right, It wasn't that they weren't hurt.
They were shut down. And then Ian Packer just goes
on offending.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
I'm getting the saints to the type of person he
would embalden him, and the arrogance he had, like coming
to speak to you. Why wouldn't he think he could
bluffy Bluffy's way through things.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
I know two women that I have spoken to, I
have met, I am in touch with them now still
they were taken to the woods where Emma was murdered
in the years after Emma was murdered. One of the
women was taken there in the months after Emma was murdered.
(29:22):
That tells you what this man thought.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I'd say, no, I won't say unbelievable because I believe it.
And just on the issue with David Barr and Stuart Hall.
In the sentencing, the judge made a comment and I
think you can pull something out from that because I
was looking at it. Okay, this is what I've heard
on your podcast, and you backed it up very well
because you left a trial supportive trial with the evidence
(29:49):
of Detective Sergeant Willie Mason. But also the judges comment
the vital work and this is on sentencing Packer after
he's convicted of all these crimes, the vital work of
retired detective Stuart Hall and David Barr has stood the
test of time. So clearly when it went to trial,
the judges looking looking at the evidence that they've presented,
(30:11):
and the judge is saying it for one of these
So I think that's supportive of what they've said.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, and I mean Stuart Hall. I think Stuart Hall
was a witness. He was called up and recalled I
think six times.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
That's an incredible amount of time.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Unheard of, right, I mean that totally unheard off. But
because it had been so involved, and the sad thing
is that many of the women who had taken statements
from back in two thousand and five, six and seven
there died, right, So he was having to be their voices,
and he was also having to talk to his interviews
with Packer, and he was having to talk to the
evidence it gathered and the journey to the woods with
Pauline who's also since died, and so he was recalled
(30:52):
many times. And I mean Stuart Hall, yeah, I mean
just honesty personified, incredible, incredible, the kind of cop that
you want on an investigation into the merger of a
loved one, you know, rigorous, Davy Barr just doesn't take
any nonsense, just you know he's going to go for it.
And the two of them I will never ever and honestly,
(31:16):
anybody listening to this is in two minds about going
to a journalist or telling their story about a journalist.
You know, choose your journalists wisely firstly, but secondly, just
open yourselves up to them. Davy Barr and Stuart Hall
put their absolute trust and faith in me. They didn't
know me, they didn't have to do that, and I
will never be able to thank them enough ever for
(31:38):
what their testimony allowed us to do and convicted Packer
right between us, we all, but it's them. They convicted Packer,
And yeah, the judge had it right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Well yeah. The judge also made a comment in regards
to yourself at sentencing. Credit to goes to investigative journalists,
notably Sam Poling, who shone a light on your activities.
So this is him talking to Paka. So look, i'd
say it feel sweet, but it doesn't because there's such
(32:11):
a horrible crime and you touched on or not touched on,
you talked about it. How many crimes were committed after
this when police had missed the opportunity, Because that's part
of the pressure when you're investigating a homicide as well.
There's not a lot of serial killers we chase, but
you've always got to consider that. And if someone does
get away murder or a serious offense and you're not
(32:32):
doing your job and that person is out on the street,
there's other potential potential victims. And it looks in this case,
in that period of time that other women were assaulted by.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Oh, I mean he had taken his m O right.
His was the streets of Glasgow. His prey were young,
vulnerable girls, right, I mean, here's the word women, but
there were so young. The first rate that we knew
of was a fifteen year old girl who was the
sister of the sister of his girlfriend at the time,
(33:07):
and it just moved on to women who worked on
the streets. He was obsessed with pornography, obsessed with prostitutes,
and then in the latter years we discovered he had
then you know, with the the you know, sex has
gone online, sex has gone into private sex clubs, and
he was frequenting sex clubs, and there were victims there.
I mean, I just I think had he not been
caught when he was, although at nineteen years too late,
(33:30):
he would have he would have he would have carried on.
I think everybody is of that opinion. He would have
just carried on untold number of victims. I know women
that still haven't reported it, who are victims. There was
a book at a drop in center, which is a
support place for women for women who were working in prostitution,
and they had what they called the Beware Book, People
to be beware of and the impacer's name is in there.
(33:53):
It was in there repeatedly. There was police street worker
liaison officers going in and they saw the book. Nothing's happened,
you know. And the way the way that the women
were treated by the police was appalling, and the police
have since apologized. They apologized on the day of the
verdict for the way women were treated. Yeah, too little,
(34:14):
too late for these ones.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
The trial, how long did the trial run for? And
you had to give give evidence at the trial? You
became talk about getting involved, You became a witness in
the matter, a key witness in the matter. How was
that experience for you?
Speaker 2 (34:30):
That was? It was? It was horrific. The trial was
at five weeks and I was told that I was
being saved for the end because it was part of
the key witness were the interviews that I'd done with
them and what we've found out. And so I wasn't
allowed to attend the trial, which was hard after six
years of working on this investigation to not be there.
(34:50):
And so I appeared in the last couple of weeks
of the prosecution case, and it was it was. It
was honestly utterly horrific. I mean horrific in ways that
I never never anticipated it would be horrific. But yeah,
it was basically showing excerpts from the interviews that we've done,
both of the interviews and then the prosecution, you know,
(35:13):
very cleverly pulling apart Packers lies because he would deny
doing one thing, or women were describing him as oh, well,
you know, on the day that he raped me, turned
up at this brothel and he was wearing motorbike gear,
and Packer was telling the police why I didn't have
a motorbike till I was twenty whatever. And then we've
got bits of me and him talking about motorbikes and
(35:35):
all his bikes on camera, and you know, all this
kind of stuff, so that you know, and all the
lies that he was telling. So sometimes he was lying
to me and telling the police the truth, and other
times he was telling me the truth and lying to
the police, and so it was, Yeah, it was. It
was tough, very tough.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
And from like you've sign it's tough, and I think
anyone that says that it's not hard being in the
witness box. Yeah, hasn't given that the due respect deserves
to start with, because it is an intimidating place to
be and to find yourself. You've been reporting on stuff,
and for you to say it's tough because you've done
(36:12):
some pretty heavy stuff in previous inquiries and the investigations
that you've done. What was it about? Was it all
the emotion, Like you've been hanging out with the person
that's been accused of these crimes, You've spoken to the victims,
You're carrying a lot of emotional baggage when you're going
in there, and then it gets broken down to a
very analytical attack on your credibility and different things. What
(36:34):
was it about your experience giving evidence that you found
so difficult?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Well, I mean I've given evidence before. I mean my
career has been as an investigative journalist. My passion is
investigating criminals, serious and organized crime. I've given evidence in
court several times before. That doesn't feaze me. I don't
get anxious about that. This was different because I knew
everybody involved in this this. I had some friends with
(36:59):
the impacer. Don't never think that you know he was
a contact. But I spent more time with him than
I have done some of my colleagues that work in
the same unit as me. You know, we spent hours
talking about things, and and then suddenly to realize that
I felt a certain level of responsibility and guilt about
the fact that there he is sitting in the dock. Now, yes,
(37:21):
it was down to his behavior, but I felt like
I had enticed the fox, you know, and it was
it was difficult. I knew I'd got to know the women.
I mean, you don't just you don't just get to
know women. You really get to know the women. I
knew their families, and there the kids' names, their kids' birthdays.
I would drop off easter eggs, I would take them
to go and pick up the hospital appointments, and that,
(37:43):
you know, you just really invest You've got a duty
of care for all of these women, and and and
so that was such a there was such a way
of responsibility that I felt that if this case failed,
and if he didn't get guilty even on one of
the charges, that would be that would be on me.
And the reason I felt that was because throughout the trial,
my name came up over and over and over. I
(38:04):
would get texting people saying you're getting it hard in
court today. I wasn't even there. I hadn't even given evidence,
but it was basically he said she said. Packer says,
this was Sam Poland's lying. This woman says that, well,
Sam Poland persuaded her to Well, that woman's given this account,
that's because Sam Polean manipulated it. Well, this woman told
this to the police. That's because Sam Poland drove it
to the police station to give her statement. This went
(38:25):
on and on and on, and then when eventually Packer
incredibly gave evidence. I mean, he was on the stand
for nearly four days. It was his evidence was about
me and about I was a light Well, Sam Poling
manipulated when she told me to say that, well, she's lying.
It's like, this isn't about me. But suddenly it became
about me. And it got to the point I had
(38:47):
to walk out. On the third day of him given evidence,
I couldn't. It was it was, It was utterly horrific.
It was the most brutal thing that I've watched. And
to hear my name in his mouth constantly, and when
I took the stand before, when I took the stand,
and he would not look at me, would not look
at me, And that was the first time I've seen
him since since after the second interview, and he didn't
(39:12):
look at me. And then when his prosecution sat down
and the defense stood up, and then at that point,
Packer kind of turns and just looks at me with
this big smug look on his face, as if to say,
right now, now you're going to get it because my
guy's up. You know, it was just it was horrific.
I mean, it was honestly horrific, and everything was about
my reputation and my honesty. And I've worked so hard
(39:35):
my entire career sinceter, but I find difficult talk about
I've worked. I've worked so hard my entire career in
all the investigations that I've done, and I've done them
honestly and with integrity. And I've always treated everybody that
(39:58):
I've come into contact with with dignity and decency and
kindness and empathy and everything. And to sit there and
not only for me to listen to my integrity being questioned,
but for my family to read about it in the newspapers,
for my colleagues to listen to that. It got to
the point where and I still can't stand the sound
(40:20):
of my own name when you read that statement out
the judge. I just can't stand seeing my name. I
can't stand hearing my name. I can't watch the packer interviews.
I can't stand his voice. And I think that's because
of having my integrity question the way it was. But
I also think I suffer from the worst guilt of
(40:41):
for everybody guilt that not everybody got a guilty verdict
for their charges, and that's on me. I take that
as my fault because some are the ones that got
not guilty. Were some of the women that were later
women later victims, who I had said, go to the police,
and I think that was I'd manipulated outlight. I have
guilt that there is a man serving thirty six years
(41:03):
in prison where he deserves to be. But he had kids.
They didn't deserve this. He has a mom and a dad,
he has siblings. None of them did this. And these women.
One of the women and just finally about this bit,
one of the women who I was incredibly close with,
who was amazing, she took part. She's Yvonne in the documentary.
(41:24):
She's just absolutely incredible, and you know, me coming into
her life and asking her to tell me her story
has destroyed her. She slept the night before giving evidence
in a car park because she's now homeless again, and
she had got her life together. She had a little boy,
(41:45):
you know, and she's lost everything. And to know that's
on me, I feel that's on me. And that's a
really difficult place to sit here today. And that's why
I don't like talking about this case, because I feel
the weight of everybody's lives and the damage that they're
going through. Had I not done what had I not
(42:07):
done what I did, had I not been digging and
investigating and got Packer involved and all of this stuff,
their lives would have just carried on because time has passed.
It was a cold case, it was forgotten about. But
Emma needs justice and she needed justice, and Margaret needed
to know what happened to her little girl. So it's
a very difficult, difficult place to be. And it's not
(42:29):
about me. I'm not saying this is about me. It's
about all the women. But I see Stuart Hall and
I talk to him all the time, and I see
the damage that has caused officers, good officers, women who
were victims and Emma's family. You know they haven't.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Got the.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Have they got justice? Have they got peace?
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Now?
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Not at all.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Saying I am so sorry we're bringing this up, but
sorry you or I'm saying, and I'm in a position
to say because I do understand what you're talking about
everything you've mentioned there, I understand. I can relate to
aspects of what you're saying there. But you've been very
hard on yourself, that is, sadly, and coming back to
(43:19):
what we started this part, there's a responsibility and accountability
when you're investigating murders, and it does cause damage. And
I've said that, and I've had to reflect sometimes on
I'd get home and you feel like you've just run
the wrecking ball through all these people. And I'm in
touch with plenty of people that unsolved homicides, and I
(43:43):
try not to give false hope, but I steer them
in directions to this day, and I sometimes question myself,
why don't we just let it pass by? It be?
But what I'm strengthened from with all these people that
I speak to and the people I've dealt with when
in my policing career and people i'm speaking to now,
(44:03):
they can't let it be like it's the damage is
done by the person that does the crime. That's where
the damage is done and they're the sole people to
be blamed. Yeah, can I say this if you didn't
if you didn't do I'm trying to be wise and
I can help you here. If you didn't do what
(44:25):
you did, there would have been more people suffering. And
you've seen You've seen like Margaret and Willie, Emma's parents,
the pain that they've gone through. You've seen the girls
that have been victims where people don't believe them. I
think you've done more good than you've done cause damage
in the people that you've helped, And it's about getting justice.
(44:46):
Justice doesn't bring closure anytime, you native if you think, okay,
well once it found guilty, everyone's going to go out
and celebrate. It doesn't work that way in when you're
looking at murder, it's just a horrible.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
But I did. But I guess you know, you know
you're the experienced one in this. You knew that you
know that that that it doesn't bring closure. I I
kind of thought it might for some people. I didn't
realize and I and it goes back to my point
I made at the beginning of this this part of this,
you know, the second part of this chat, which is
(45:20):
I want people to know that the ripple effect, it's
it's bigger, it's wider, it's it's it's it's so much
more damaging than people will ever ever know. It doesn't
stop with a guilty vert It doesn't stop with the rest.
It doesn't stop with a guilty verdict, it doesn't stop
with a sentence. It doesn't stop. It just does not stop.
(45:41):
And yeah, I think so many lessons need to be
learned from what happened in this case. I would urge
everybody to please listen to this podcast and and and
I just you know, I know that the majority of
your guests are from law enforcement and or in that world,
and you know, take lessons from this, learn from this.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Well. I try to be selective with the people I've
get from law enforcement and the people I look up
to and the people I respect. And Yeah, what comes
out in bucket loads from you is you've got empathy
for all the people involved, all the great detectives I know,
the ones I looked up to, the ones I tried
to aspire to be, all carried that empathy. What's the
(46:21):
most important characteristic he talks to you at all. I
could just hear it in his voice. What the decent
person he was listening to your podcasts. A great police
and they're butting heads with an organization. That that's why
I like what we talked about at the start. We've
police been more accountable because gone are the days where
they can just rule the roots and nothing to see here. Man,
(46:43):
the police are got this all under hand. Just move along.
Those days are gone and people need to be accountable.
Some good has come out of this, and I've got
some comments from the judgement. I think you have encapsulated
what we're talking about here, and also the family lawyer
just one of the comments. One of this is a
(47:05):
quote from Ember's family lawyer. After the court matter. The
family's lawyer, Ama Enua, described Packer has been one of
the UK's were sex offenders and called for a robust
judge led public inquiry into the original police investigation, adding
that some officers had blood on their hands. Okay, that's
a solicit. They're always prone to make the big statements,
(47:28):
but reading between the lines, it's all about accountability and
I think with this we do need to be accountable.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yeah, and you know, I obviously approached the police officers
who were responsible for the decision making, including the SiO
of the entire case, but also the senior officer for
the covert investigation against the Turkishmen. Neither of them would
give me interviews. The statements that I got basically were
(47:56):
we await the public inquiry, and the SiO said in
I was looking forward to telling his side of the
story at the public inquiry. I look forward to that too.
Everybody is looking forward to that.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Well, there is always two sides, and I think you
balanced it out with not just straight out criticism. There
were reasons that the turkish Men were being looked at,
but in the same regards, I'm just saying from a
homicide detective, the bit of information I've got that it
was pretty strong on Pecker and that should have been
pursued to the inth degree place of Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
I just was sorry. So I just I really wanted
to say, you know, I'm not amazing. I'm not this
magical investigative journalist that just managed to get all of
this evidence right and just do the most brilliant job.
The evidence was there, right, The evidence was all that'd
love to be able to say it was me. The
(48:51):
evidence was there, it was there, Okay, you just.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
Pulled the curtain back all of it. Yeah, well, look,
I think the place So I'd like to think the
police have learned from this and like from lessons learned,
and I think the Scottish Police has apologized for the
original inquiry was handled, but that was then it was
run by Strathclyde Police which no longer. They've been taken
(49:16):
over by Scottish Police. It's just a restructure, is it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
So basically there were regional area police forces and that
became one single national force, Police Scotland.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
So yeah, we've also got a quote that attributed to
Police Scotland and McCall will, her family and many other
victims were let down by policing in two thousand and
five for what for that? We're very sorry, the force said.
I've had a police commissioner come up and apologize to
(49:47):
an indigenous community about a way of an investigation in
your serial killer was handled. And it took ten years
to get the commissioner up there, came up there and said, look,
we're sorry, we could have done things better. It doesn't
solve the problem. It doesn't fix a problem, but it
means something at least when they acknowledge. And there was
also Deputy Chief Countable bick Smith, who is a crime
(50:09):
portfolio for Scotland Police. She's also made comments I heard
towards the end of the podcast of changes that are
being made and things that they're improving on. Do you
believe that they come in the play? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Look, I think it's a different world. I think the
world has changed, and I think I think the way
that the police deal with victims of sexual offending has changed.
I think the way that police deal with women who
work within the sex trade and workers prostitutes, I think
that is changing, and I think there is perhaps a
(50:44):
kind of more of a holistic approach in terms of
law enforcement and all the agencies perhaps working together. Are
we ever going to change attitudes towards women like this? No,
I don't think so. I think there will always be
some of those voices, disrespect for, disparaging, unpleasant attitudes, archaic
(51:05):
attitudes that have got absolutely no place in today's society,
but they will always be there. I think they're getting fewer.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
Well, there's always for improvement. The impacker ended up getting
thirty or life imprisonment, which is a minimum of thirty
six years for the murder of Emma Caldwell. And I
think also was it thirty three other offenseates for twenty
(51:36):
two other victims.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
So yeah, he got thirty six years for Emma's murder
minimum before parole, and yeah, twenty two other victims he
got twenty eight years to seven currently, So yeah, the
minimum before he can get parole is thirty six years.
He will, he will undoubtedly die in prison.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
What a journey that you found your involved in. Have
have you got any other projects going at the moment?
Or he's just taking a step back. You can't see
that that kid still involved, That teenage girl that kept
hassling the BBC for a job is still there.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
But yeah, yeah, always.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Look, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, and
I appreciate your due diligence and I catch killers. You're
the first person that's said about the name. I sit
here sometimes and think it started. It started. I didn't
know what I was in for, and we're stuck with it.
But I'd like to think that the work that we
do on the podcast here, having people like yourself and
(52:40):
make people like if police are listening to this is
not about bashing police. It's about lessons learned and why
was a mistake made. If a mistake was made, what
lessons have we learned from that to prevent that type
of type of thing. And I would as this wide
wise old ex homicide detective just say this to you.
(53:01):
Be kind to yourself. What what you did is tremendous
at something you should be very proud of. And uh yeah,
there's gonna there's always going to be collateral damage when
you go hard finding out the truth of why someone's
life life has been taken.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
Thank you. I appreciate the words.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Thanks very much. All the best for the future.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Jeers hm mhm
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