March 15, 2025 • 59 mins
Jacinta Price’s aunt went missing more than 40 years ago. To this day, it’s a mystery that remains unsolved. From long lost family secrets to the personal toll of being a polarising figure, Jacinta sits down with Gary Jubelin to discuss everything from her upbringing to youth crime, and why she’ll never lose hope.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life the average person is never
exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world today,
(00:46):
I spake, We've just senter Price. I think it's fair
to say Just Center is a controversial character, an Aboriginal
lady who is a senator in Federal Parliament and has
been the Shadow Minister for Indigenous Affairs. It's twenty twenty three.
Her views on Aboriginal issues often caused division, but as
(01:08):
you'll find out today, she's prepared to stand by her comments.
We spoke about a life and her views on a
wide range of Indigenous issues. Let's see what you think
about Senator just Center Price Ciner. I've followed your career
for a long time. You're not hard to hard to miss.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I think I'm all over the place.
I can't even escape myself.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
And look, I think the type of topics you're talking about, mayors,
you're talking about, it's polarizing and they're difficult. Conversations that
you have in the position that you take on certain
issues are always always hard. I'm going to ask a
personal question first up? What toll has it taken on you?
(02:00):
People would recognize you as the voice of the referendum
of supporting the no vote and different sences that you've taken.
What toll has it taken on you personally?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Well, there's a sense of not feeling like my life
is my own. I guess I know that my kids
and my husband probably feel that I'm no longer you know,
this sort of care free, more relaxed person than what
I used to be. And in many ways sometimes they
(02:34):
can see me as distant because my head is so
full of what's going on. You know what, I'm what
the latest challenge is, the latest thing I'm trying to
find an answer for, and those sorts of things. And yeah,
there's there's that sort of sense of yeah, not feeling
like my life is my own anymore.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I understand that. Do you have the ability to switch
off when you when you can step boy, when you're
with family and friends?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I do. I do, And sometimes, like again, my family
will say, you know your armor's up, you need to
take your armor off. Go home and take your armor off.
And it can be hard to get into that right away.
And but yeah, look, I love being able to chill
out at home, be mum, you know, copper roasting from
(03:26):
my kids and my husband, be brought back down to
earth again. And yeah, it's my favorite favorite thing to do,
even just being at home doing the dishes, like feeling
like a normal person.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
It's good to dumb things down a little bit sometimes,
isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Ye?
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Your pressure pressure pressure, Okay, this is my escape. I
can be who I want to be there, just on that.
There's so much to talk about. Congratulations on your book too,
it's a it's an interesting read. You've certainly lived a life.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, thank you, it's been. It's been an credible journey
and a very daunting at times process and especially on
the cusp of its release, knowing just how much of
my life I guess I'd put out there for the
public to learn about and how thinking of how that
might be received as well as but you know, cathartic
(04:21):
at times, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to have
been able to do it well.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Your public profile is very much linked to your Indigenous background,
and quite often you're the person called in to make comments.
Do you when you speak as an Aboriginal lady, do
you feel that you're speaking for all Aboriginal people from
your life experience.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, No, definitely from my life experience. And that's a thing, right.
I Mean, it's a funny situation because when we look
at other people like we don't we don't see a
white fellow speaking and go, oh, they're speaking on behalf
of all white fellows, you know. But but for Indigenous
Australians it's a funny sort of position because on one hand,
(05:10):
you're going, you know, you've got your detractors, so you
don't speak on behalf of me. I was like, well, actually,
never claim to speak on behalf of you. But then
you're told that you know, if you're not saying what
they what your detractors want to hear, then you're a
sellout or you're a traitor. Well, so what is it
you know? Am I speaking? Am I supposed to be
speaking on behalf of you? Or not? But ultimately what
(05:31):
I my lived experience and coming from being able to
be the voice for those that want me to be
their voice, those those that don't get the opportunity to
be heard and really vulnerable marginalized people that need need
(05:53):
their truth to be heard. That's that's really you know
who I'm about speaking on behalf of and for in
order to make a positive difference in their lives and
to save lives. Really, that's really what it's about. And
let's face it, the truth is bloody confronting, but it's
necessary to put out there to overcome our great challenges.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Well, we're going to break it down the challenges and
the positions you take on a lot of issues. But
I can see the conundrum you've got there that you
don't speak for all of us. But if you speak,
why you're speaking on behalf And I'll chime in as
the white fellow at the table here too. There is
a perception. There is a perception that oh, you're Aboriginal,
(06:39):
therefore you're speaking for other Aboriginals, and like, is it
correct me if I'm wrong? But two hundred and fifty
different nations across the continent.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Well yeah, look, I mean in terms of language groups
that once upon a time there were of a five
hundred languages spoken across the continent. And you know there's
like a handful still around now as first languages. But yeah,
so we're talking different, you know, culturally linguistically diverse people
(07:13):
right across this continent.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, at one stage, okay, well, look diving into and
we've got so much to talk about. Your life, your upbringing,
you stepping into parliament, your life is a politician, your
thoughts on that world, which is probably more confronting than
the indigenous world in different ways, or more divisive. But
(07:37):
I think a good way to launch into it your
maiden speech at Parliament and it was two thy and
twenty two. I've just pulled an extract out from the
maiden speech. I'll read it through and then we'll break
down some things there. If that's okay. My vision, my hope,
my goal is that we can affect change it we'll
see women, children and other victims in these communities become
(07:59):
as safe as any of those living in Sydney, Melbourne
or any other Australian city. My goal is to halt
the pointless virtue signaling and focus on solutions that bring
real change that changes the lives of Australia's most vulnerable citizens,
Solutions that give them real lives, not the enduring nightmare
of violence and terror that they currently live. It is
(08:20):
not good enough that the streets of our Northern Territory
towns and other towns across regional Australia have gangs of
children age from six to sixteen wandering and around with
no adult supervision in the early hours of the morning.
It's not good enough that almost all of these children
have witnessed or been subject to normalized alcohol abuse, domestic
family and sexual violence throughout their young lives, and is
(08:43):
the reason for their presence on our streets. Such neglecting
great numbers would not be accepted in prosperous suburbs of
any of our capital cities. Extract from your speech, you
can't really argue with the sentiment there.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah right, I mean it's true why we're Australia is
an incredibly tolerant nation, but we can be tolerant to
a fault, to the point that you know that we
did do have children as young as six and six
to sixteen on our streets late at night, at the
early hours of the morning, that you know, those circumstances
(09:21):
continue in twenty twenty five. And when we contrast that
and see a lot of you know, a lot of
a lot of people living in our in our in
our cities. When they do visit places like Alice Springs
or you know, remote communities, there is a stark contrast
in lives, in the way lives are lived, and in
(09:44):
many ways it's a real culture shock as well. But
this is just reality for us in places like our
springs and remote communities, and that's what needs to be
better understood and we shouldn't excuse it. We should never
excuse use it, or you know, especially especially when we
(10:05):
want to. I mean, I seek to hold accountable perpetrators
within my own family, within my own community, but for
some reason that's frowned upon to do so because our
perpetrators are also framed as victims of colonization. But that
doesn't help the situation. So yeah, again it's about confronting
(10:30):
reality and demonstrating to the rest of the country, this
is the reality of what goes on in these places
where we experience the highest rates of marginalization in the country.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Right, understanding that generational trauma. Where As yeah, it could
be said as an excuse, but your your position, if
I understand, is you want to break the cycle. It's
got to stop somewhere totally.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Look, you know, trauma is as a human experience and
it doesn't discriminate like human beings around the globe have
experienced trauma and intergenerational trauma if you like. So why
is it that it I guess we allow it in
(11:15):
some ways in the indigenous community to prevent us from
progressing as individuals in our own right. You know, yes,
we have to acknowledge it and realize that it's there
and it exists. But we also have to acknowledge that
we as human beings and individuals, without considering our racial
heritage or anything like that, are capable of wonderful, great things,
(11:40):
and there is We're empowered when we take responsibility not
just for our own circumstances, but when we take responsibility
for how we are within our own families and communities
at the same time. That is what that's where empowerment
comes from, as personal responsibility. A lot of the time,
(12:01):
the argument, the political argument, is that we don't have
to because it's colonization's fault and those that have stood
to gain from colonization are somehow also responsible. But we've
all gained something from colonization. As much as it has
played a part in the detriment of Indigenous Australians, they're
(12:21):
also there are also aspects that we have been able
to progress forward from at the same time.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Okay, in that, just from that quote, the lives of
Australia's most vulnerable citizens, you're referring in that in context,
in full context, you're referring to Indigenous people.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
But yes, talking best and I guess in that talking
about marginalized Indigenous Australians too, because you know, as I've
always said, we're not just marginalized because of our racial heritage.
There are some Indigenous Australians doing, living very successful lives
and a growing middle class. But I'm talking specifically about
marginalized Indigenous Australians.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Okay, why can you offer them? It's a real broad question,
and I'll warn you I'm probably going to ask some
dumb questions. But it's such absolutely, it's such a complex
issue and looking at it from the outside, and I've
been involved in Indigenous matters, but I'm a white guy
and I never speak with great knowledge. I speak with
(13:19):
experiences what I've seen. But so if I ask some
dumb questions, just cut me some latitude on this. But
we'll try and we'll try and get people across to understand.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
It's all about understanding.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Talking about So why do you think the Indigenous community
looked at there's our vulnerable citizens in the country.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Well, I mean, in terms of our most marginalized, we
experienced the highest rates of domestic and family violence, of
sexual abuse, of neglect, of all those things, the lowest
rates of you know, education, and lowest rates of employment.
That's that's the most marginalized in this country are predominantly
(14:02):
Indigenous Australians. And in my previous work as part of
the Center for Independent Studies heading up the Indigenous Research Program,
what we uncovered was that our most marginalized exist in
regional and remote parts of this country, but particularly so
(14:22):
more acutely within places like the Northern Territory, Western Australia
and North Queensland, Far North Queensland. And so for me,
it's really important to identify who they are, which things
like Closing the Gap Report and all these initiatives don't
(14:44):
necessarily prioritize the needs of our most marginalized, but take
a blanket approach toward Indigenous Australians to suggest that we're
all marginalized and just because we're indigenous, right, And as
I say, we've got to be far more focused and
far more honest about how we approach that.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
And that type of position I would imagine within the
Indigenous community across the board that might bring some conflict
to or some pushback.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
It does in that an industry has developed out of
you know, indigenous direction in Indigenous policy, there is you know,
my focus is on well, you know, the figure of
thirty three billion dollars being spent on Indigenous affairs was
(15:39):
determined I think back in twenty seventeen, and we don't
have a current figure on how much that spend is
right now, but as I said, it's usually spent on
measures to support and advance Indigenous Australians without without saying okay,
but who are we actually looking at here? And so
(16:00):
an industry has developed out of that. I mean, there
are many livelihoods that have been created in that space.
There are many organizations that are tasked with improving the
lives of marginalized Indigenous Australians that, in my view, many
of which are failing. But if I point these things out,
I'm going to be targeted, you know, if I if
(16:23):
I want to take a more honest approach to this matter,
I will be targeted because there are those who are
going to feel threatened by the fact that I'm pointing, Well,
it's not just governments that are failing, it's those that
are funded by governments that are failing. And there is
very little accountability in this space. So calling for these
(16:43):
things will naturally ensure that I that I have enemies.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
And in calling that they just clarify it where the
money is not going where it supposedly should go to.
Or people who have said creating an industry and I'm
guessing here, but it wouldn't just be Aboriginal people are
making a profit from it or creating an industry. So
when you want it scrutinize, you want it scrutinized across
(17:10):
the board, not just the money that's gone to the Blackfellows.
Want whoever's got control of this money and how it's
been used.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, whoever's receiving funds that are supposed to go to
improving the lives of Indigenous Australians.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Okay, you touched on health, education, crime. What sort of
figures are we looking at? And again, it's hard to
generalize because we're going back into exactly what you've pointed
out where we make mistakes. But it is known that
the high incarceration rate as an ex scop, I know
(17:43):
the challenges that corrective services, the high incarceration of Indigenous people.
Health is a problem, education, employment, the welfare system will
relying on welfare. What if you're people that haven't really
bored into it, tell them what we're talking about on
the scale.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, yeah, Look, an incarceration is a huge issue, but
sometimes I feel like we try to deal with the
symptoms and not the causes of the matter. And there's
I mean, I can recommend a really good book by
Don Born Weatherburn called Arresting Incarceration Pathways out of Indigenous Imprisonment,
(18:25):
who headed up the Bureau of criminology here in New
South Wales for.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
So of him and yeah, yeah, yeah, And.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Basically he identifies that I think it's between sixty five
and seventy percent of incarcerated Indigenous men are incarcerated for
acts of violence. And I mean, it's it's a horrible truth.
But these are cycles, obviously generational cycles. And my argument
(18:57):
is that we need to this particular issue because if
we address the violence issue, we'll see a dramatic decrease
in rates of incarceration amongst Indigenous men, but also Indigenous women.
This is increasing in terms of incarceration rates. The reason
(19:17):
why Indigenous women are being incarcerated, and and one of
an argument that I've always put forward, which I still
you know to this day, well I'll always get pushed
back on, is the fact that I know from lived
experience that in places like where we have the highest
rates of DV in the Northern Territory is that in
(19:38):
traditional culture violence is accepted, but all small scale societies
on the face of the earth used violence as a
means of social control. And for us in Central Australia,
the frontier was not that long ago. My grandparents first
saw white fellows in their early adolescence. So traditional culture
that accepted violence as a means of social control is
(20:02):
partly the reason why we have such high rates of violence,
because men, women and children will act out violently because
it's accepted in traditional culture. But also there are elements
of traditional culture that suggests that women are not as
important as men. You know, it's patriarchal society, and if
(20:24):
if we don't acknowledge this, we're not going to overcome
the DV crisis that we're confronted with. And again in
the book, it's lived experience my mother becoming a mother,
at being pregnant at thirteen, at a mother at fourteen,
and under those circumstances. It's questionable as to how that
(20:45):
came about. You know, she won't provide so much detail,
but I don't believe that my mother was willingly. You know,
she was forced into a relationship with the father of
my brother, because in traditional terms, if you have a
childhood to an abaginal man, you have to then be
married to that man in traditional terms. So there's those
(21:08):
elements of traditional culture that play out significantly in the
lives of women in places like the Northern Territory and
more broadly, they don't have opportunity to speak or have
a platform, a media platform, or are often if so,
are too scared to talk about the reality of what
(21:29):
goes on in communities. And then in the broader context
and indigenous affairs, the narrative is that we simply blame
colonization for what's going on. And also, as I've been told,
you know, I shouldn't speak ill of our own people
because that is supposed to then encourage racists toward us.
(21:54):
We'll hang on a second. If we take it all back,
what we want to do is stop people from losing
their lives. Racism is the problem of the racist. It's
their mental health issue to deal with. We shouldn't make
it ours right. But what we should do is ensure
that our most vulnerable, our women and children, are kept safe.
And that is my argument. So if it means that
(22:17):
we have to highlight the reality of the circumstances, if
it means that we have to highlight in traditional culture
we do accept violence as a means of social control,
but that we shouldn't and have those hard conversations, then
that's what I'm doing, and that's what I'm prepared to do,
And we should all be prepared to do that.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
And saying that, when you explain it that way, it
sounds quite reasonable. But the pushback is, well, you disrespecting
our culture or this is our business, this is the
way we deal things. I think in your book your
auntie that disappeared and suspected murder a long time ago,
and that was a horrendous situation, but it felt, and
(22:56):
I put my hat on as a homicide detective, that
no one wanted to to talk about it. There would
have been people that could have offered something and chose
not to come forth because of the shame of coming forward.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Well absolutely, not just the shame, but probably the circumstances
around it. That my aunt's promised husband had already murdered
and done time after murdering his first wife, but that
under again under customary law, she didn't want to go
(23:30):
to that relationship and be forced into it, and she
was being forced into it. But under customery law, he
had every right to punish her for, you know, not
not doing as was her obligation to do, was to
go and be his wife. And so those involved in
(23:52):
that circumstance that were forcing her into that, we're also
doing it on the belief that it was appropriate culturally
appropriate to do so. And you know, the saddest part
about that whole thing is that her father, who was
a very prominent man, my mother's uncle and you know,
(24:14):
held up as a revered elder and a land rights
activist and all those things, evidently knew what went on,
but took that secret to his grave and in that
also told a story that she had run away, that
she has had eight sons living in Queensland, has eight sons.
(24:37):
He he he ensured that that story you know, made
the rounds was was, which is part of a cover
up as far as i'm co Yeah, that's right, because
why would you why would you do that if you
in fact you know your daughter is not really alive.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, it's a it's a sad case. And I know
you've still hoped to get get answers. So yeah, good luck,
good luck with that. I'm doing what you've probably gets
you in the trouble a lot of the times because
we're focusing on negative aspects of the culture. But let's say,
and quite often I hear you talk about, okay, things
(25:16):
like you've just explained, there there's a lot of positives
about the culture, and there's some really I can only
speak from my experience. I've met some really impressive male elders. Absolutely,
some what I would consider good role models.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah. Absolutely. And in my book, you know, I talk
a lot about my grandfather and my grandfather's story, and
I think my grandfather was revolutionary forward thinker for a
man of his time, who embraced change instead of fighting it,
if you like, because you know, he knew that life
was tough. You know, before white fellows came along, it
(25:53):
was killed or be killed in terms of the when
you would come across your traditional enemies. You had to
live off the land in a very harsh desert environment.
And when this change came, he knew had to be
he had to be part of it because it meant
not just surviving, but thriving. And my grandfather also, I
(26:15):
guess I'd get it from him where he pushed back
on tradition in that when he and my grandmother got together,
my grandmother was already part of a polygamous marriage, was
like a third wife, and my grandfather and grandmother wanted
to be together, and so my grandfather defied tradition. He
copped it a couple of times and got a beating
from the traditional promised husband, but in the end he
(26:39):
was able to then take my grandmother as his wife.
And when he saw that that my mother wanted to
make her own choices and fought to have an education,
he backed her up in that. You know, he could
have very easily said to my mother, look, you, while
you've escaped your first marriage, and I wouldn't call it
(27:02):
a marriage, you are actually supposed to be traditionally becoming
a second wife in the marriage that your older sisters
involved in. You need to go to that now if
you're not going to be with this horrible, violent individual.
But both my mum's traditional promised husband and my grandfather
(27:25):
put my mum's wishes before traditional culture. To me, they're
the kind of men that are you know, they're all throughout,
and they're wonderful men who care and love for their families.
And you know, that's why I guess I've always celebrated
(27:49):
my grandfather for that, for the man that he was
and the love that he gave and the things that
he believed in. And there are absolutely a lot of
men like that. I know, there are men that think
much like I do. But for fear of retribution, you know,
they keep that to themselves as well, because men can
(28:11):
also be targeted violently. Men are also victims of violence
as well good men. So you know, when people try
to argue that I paint all of our men as horrible,
when all I'm doing is looking at the facts, When
all I'm saying is Okay, our kids are experiencing experiencing
the highest rates of sexual abuse. To say that doesn't
(28:33):
mean to say that all our men are pedophiles. That's
not what I'm saying. And in terms of wonderful aspects
about culture, you know, I often share those as well,
like the fact that you know, I was brought up
by my elders to believe that if you are conceived
on this country, because what we believe is that you're
when you're conceived, your baby spirit has leapt from the
(28:53):
ground into your mother's belly, giving you your personal dreaming,
your connection to that country by the creator ancestor that
created that country. You now are connected to that creative ancestor,
that's your personal dreaming. So that anyone who's conceived on
this country is also connected to this country spiritually in
that way, regardless of racial heritage. You know, that's the
(29:15):
part of my culture that I love and I celebrate,
which is about being completely inclusive and recognizing others as
human beings, not as people divided by race. And that
to me is what true reconciliation looks like.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Okay, we've got right into the hard stuff without even
finding out a little bit about yourself. So tell us
where you were born and what you were just relaying there.
I was reading that in your book and I found
it fascinating and very educational, so it was interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
So my parents were living on Melville Island when I
was born, So I was born in Darwin and a
week after my birth flew back to the islands and
spent spent some few more months there. Mom and dad
were there for a few more months before they decided
to move to the Kimberly. But given that my conception
(30:07):
site comes from Teewee Country and the Mangotolby family pretty
much adopted us as family. And I share, you know,
the dreaming spirit with the Utika Bay Tikabanger, which is
crocodile dreaming clan up on the Tiwi Islands. And so
you know, if if I go back there and during ceremony,
(30:31):
participate and dance with the crocodile clan. That's my connection
to the Tewee Islands, my personal dreamings, my inherited dreamings
coming from my Wabury side of the family ung Napa
which is rain and warliw fire. And so my responsibility
is in Wadbury Country around those choko By stories, so
(30:54):
around Nappa and fire random fire. But yeah, so Mum
and Dad moved to took another teaching job in the
Kimberly and Nunkenbar in community of Nunkolnbar. So I was
just a toddler when they took that job. And yeah,
we lived in like a little in a caravan basically
(31:17):
in that didn't have very good air conditioning and would
live through the wet the wet season and under really
incredible conditions. Like I just sort of think I could
probably never live in the Kimberley like that. Again now
understanding in many ways I can't remember because I was
a toddler, But how Mum and Dad did that, and
(31:41):
especially Mum being a desert woman growing up in a
dry climate, yeah, it amazes me. Just before I turned three,
Mum and Dad decided to move to Alice Springs, so
a bit closer to Yundamu where Mom's from, a bit
closer to family. And yeah, I mean all my life
I've been spent a lot of time at at under Moves,
like a second home, because all my family lived there,
(32:05):
you know, spend a lot of time as a kid,
would go camping, like mom and Dad would just pick
up and we'd be gone out bush or at camping
John and find the next lot of rock art that
Dad felt like he needed to go and discover, or
you know, going out with family and going hunting and
with my my aunties and my grandmother and Mum and
(32:25):
my cousins just walking around barefoot, you know, out on
our country and and yeah, my my, my, my auntie
bopping to Goanna's on the head at once because they're mating,
you know, and all kinds of wonderful skills. You get
two in one that with that if you can come
(32:46):
across two goannas like that. But yeah, that was and
a lot of my family living in town camps around
Alice Springs as well, So a lot of time in
in town.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Camps and in the in the town camps, you were
seeing good and the bad. A lot of lot of
lot of the bad, I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Yeah, Like, I mean, I have really happy memories too,
in town camps and just being with my cousins and stuff,
and but yeah, there's there's some really, it's certainly balanced
with some really you know, horrible memories as well. And
seeing seeing a woman in my extended family, her little
(33:24):
boy running from her because she's completely drunk and emotional
and got a knife in her hand, and him my
other aunties, you know, grabbing hold of the little fella
and comforting him while his mum's standing there stabbing herself
in the leg. You know, experiences like that, experiences of
as I've mentioned in the book, getting up in the
(33:45):
middle of the night and rescuing my family members from
you know, drunken violence that's unfolding in the town camp.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, and that's so all the all those things of
what's created the person you are now. I suppose, Yeah,
when did you? And we're going to talk about your
music career a little bit later. You're not getting getting
out of here without that. We'll do that in part too,
I think. But what inspired you? The politics? I know
your mum was very much in the politics and was
(34:15):
a spokesperson and an elder that would offer opinions not
the ways of popular opinions. That's a sense I get.
What inspired you to get into politics.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Probably the fact that it appeared as though those empowered
didn't have a clue as to what was going on
in the ground in communities, and you know that lived
experience was being sugarcoated or ignored in many ways. And
I think, you know, watching this abaginal industry flourish, but
(34:47):
without anything any anything significant, any change occurring on the ground.
And also I guess knowing that there's some people who
perpetrators who were being revered as elders, and think, king,
why is that? Why do we do that? And we
can't we can't do that? How does that? How does
that impact us positively? How what is that? What message
(35:10):
does that tell victims in our communities?
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah, well, you you bring up a point, and I
think one thing and looking at it doesn't matter which culture,
which you know, which community, children need to be protected.
And I think that's a no brainer. And you know,
culture shouldn't override the protection of children. That's a simple philosophy.
(35:35):
I also picked up on one of your many documented
talks and you've even said it here today, and I
like that attitude that prevention is better than cure. So
when we're talking about the crime in the streets and
kids getting in the trouble, what's your ideas of preventing that?
Like diversionary situations like the high incarceration rate. I can
(35:56):
talk here generally, but I know Northern Territory it's on
another level. For young Indigenous kids.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Incarceration comes down to the failures of the child protection system.
You know, it's and there are a number of different
failures I believe in the child protection system, you know,
just speaking in a committee just before actually about asking
questions around the kinship principle and how that's been prioritized
(36:25):
for kids and this notion that culture and being connected
to country is what should be the priority, Whereas my
idea of a priority is upholding the human rights of
these kids to be able to live lives safely, you know,
not exposed to domestic and family violence and sexual abuse
and having their needs met. That should be the priority.
(36:49):
But I feel as though the ideology and organizations child
protection organizations is that it's more about culture maintaining culture
than it is about human rights. But then at the
same time, there are failings in the child protection system
(37:10):
that regardless of all of that, kids are still not
properly their circumstances aren't properly considered. All there's potentially cares
in the system that are doing wrong by these kids
when they're supposed to be in that system to be
protected as well.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Is there and he will throw within the silly white
guy comments, but the stolen generation that the way it's portrayed,
everyone carries shame with it and different things. One of
the articles I read or one of the speeches that
you've given you you talked about when you're talking about children,
the kinship it should override the protection of the children
(37:51):
should override it. Where children are taken from one family
and placed into another, taken off of family that they've
been placed into because they're not indigenous, and to keep
that cultural connection. I can see in an ideal world
that would work, but you gave examples where it doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yeah. Yeah, And that's the thing is to understand that
whole family environment. You know, there are wonderful things about
being part of huge Aboriginal families. The fact that there
are so many that are prepared to take care of kids.
In some circumstances, when it's grandparents, often they're overwhelmed and
(38:30):
actually don't have the capacity to take on a lot
of kids. And in some ways and in some circumstances,
there are still connections with potential predators within families if
kids remain in those circumstances. I'm also well aware of circumstances,
particularly in the Northern Territory, where children have been put
(38:51):
into foster care from when they're a baby, and then
they're growing up in the suburbs of you know, places
like other Springs, and they are they have special needs,
they might be kids with fas D, and so all
the health and mental health services available to them, a
specialist services available to them are in that environment in
(39:12):
the suburbs. And then, you know, they get to the
age of five or so, and suddenly somebody who says
that they are kin who this child might not even know,
a complete stranger to them, living out in a remote
community where there is no access to all those services
that supports that child's upbringing, suddenly become the care of
(39:32):
that kid, and that kid is taken out of that
environment that they've only ever known and putting out into
a remote community in circumstances where there are known perpetrators
in those communities and pedophiles in those communities as well,
So those kids are effectively put back in the path
of danger. And I know of circumstances where that's been
(39:54):
done and those children have been retraumatized, and those children
have been you know, abused once more and then having
to be taken back out and back with the original
foster parents Like this is it's criminal to do that
to that child in the first place. And my argument
is that I don't care what the racial heritage is
(40:16):
of the career for that child. If that child is
being loved, cared for, protected and having all their needs met,
then that that should override any other decisions. I know
of circumstances where some kin will put their hand up
because they know that there is a monetary element to
(40:39):
it where there's they they then they then have access
to payments for that child, but they're not necessarily putting
the needs of that child first. And I mean, I
know also of indigenous foster parents who are overwhelmed in
their circumstances doing a remarkable job as well. So for me,
(41:05):
you know, it's about ultimately the protection of that child
is it should always be the first priority. And you know,
when I talk about faster parents, some of those foster
parents have worked in the police force in child abuse,
you know, on the front line, so they know who
perpetrators are and to be taken care of a child,
(41:27):
for that child to be removed from their care, and
they've done everything they can to fight the child protection
system to say this is wrong, and yet it still occurs.
That's where we have major problems.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Okay. In discussions I have with Indigenous communities and just
things I'm interested in, they talk about community leads solutions
as distinct from government policy. The community want ownership in
what's going to impact on them. I know that, and
I might be misinterpreted in this, but sometimes you'll criticize
(42:00):
for not believing in community lead solutions, but that's a
misrepresentation with a.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Yeah, you know, I absolutely believe in community lead because
I think it's it's well, it's coming from the community.
The community know what's what's going on on the ground
within their community, and empowering those organizations to do so
is great. But as long as there are checks and balances,
as long as they are demonstrating outcomes, as long as
(42:35):
there isn't a level of accountability as well involved, as
long as you know, because there's you know, there's a
number of recent examples of community organized original organizations where
their chairperson or a board member has a domestic violence history,
and that there's excuses made for those individuals and their positions.
(42:59):
So to me, that is that is there's the lowering
of expectations in Indigenous affairs and within some of these organizations.
But governance is primary. It is so important and if
we don't get that right, how do we know that
these organizations are delivering as they should? But I don't believe,
(43:20):
you know, I think there should be freedom of choice
for Indigenous Australians as well, because yes, we should invest
in community driven or Aboriginal identified organizations and those sorts
of things. But and that was another question that I
put to the Productivity Commission today during the Senate hearing,
was that is their data that draws a comparison between
(43:43):
Aboriginal community lead and mainstream that'd be interesting And there
is no data, right, there is no data. So while
you know it is it is good to have community
led and I just I don't believe in the concept
that only Aboriginal people know how to to better support
Aboriginal people. I think we're all humans, and I think
(44:05):
as humans and part of a wider community. You know,
take for example, addiction is a human condition, and that
Western society has developed tools in order to help overcome addiction,
and why wouldn't we draw on those tools given it
it is a human condition to be able to help
(44:25):
all people, including Indigenous Australians, overcome those things. So I
just don't believe in the concept that only Aboriginal people
know how to help Aboriginal people, because then we just
have Asian people just helping Asian people, and white people
are helping white people. But we're all people ultimately.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but I know those
type of comments other people would say, we don't need
to be told what to do, we know what to do.
Some good community led projects. I've seen Redfern not clean
slate and tribal worry it that was I've had Shane
(45:01):
Phillips on the podcast before. I'm amazed by the work
that they did. And this was when we're talking. Redfern
was a volatile place and there was a lot of
crime and a heavy indigenous population, and clean slate without
prejudice and tribal boxing had some great results. And to
this day they're still running a great organization and doing
(45:23):
good work. I see that from a cop or ex
cops point of view.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Yeah, And look like I know some wonderful organizations like
the Glen you know on the Central Coast and like
Black Rock in the Hunter doing amazing work to provide
employment pathways for prisoners. Like they're absolutely like wonderful programs
that are demonstrating that they're providing outcomes and should absolutely
(45:49):
be supported. And there's plenty of examples of that right
around the country.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
So yeah, I mean, I'm not yeah, I never suggest
to discount one for the other, but we need a
broad range of all of those.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Yeah, Okay, I'm just trying to try to understand because
I hear the stuff that oh no, this is what
she says and she means this, and so breaking it
down the Northern Territory intervention that always gets people's opinions
very very emotional about that. It was two thousand and
seven where it first started. Do you want to explain
(46:26):
what that meant to you? As an Aboriginal person when
that came in, because it ran for it was only
stopped in twenty twenty two or twenty fifteen. I think
they had called it something else, but it ran till
twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
So there's still some policies in place as a result
of that stronger futures. I think it was then sort
of overhauled by labor afterwards, and policies under that came
from that initially. And yeah, so when that occurred, it
was like breaking the seal. It was like, you know,
(47:07):
breaking the glass, the glass ceiling, if you like, because
for so long we've known about so many cases of abuse,
sexual abuse in remote communities and the little children are sacred.
Report was smashing that wide open, which led to the
intervention and it's and you know a lot of people
(47:30):
demonize it and say that it disempowered Aboriginal people and
a lot of the time, well a lot of Aboriginal
people and communities are told that they are disempowered by
it and power was taken away from them. What they
don't realize is that the territory labor government at that
time broke down Aboriginal community councils disempowered them and created
(47:51):
councils super shires throughout the Northern Territory. And people get
that mixed up with the intervention. That wasn't an initiative
of the intervention, that was actually a Territory Labor Government
initiative which in fact a current Minister for Indigenous Astraliansmulandarry
McCarthy was part of, and our current member for Lingiari,
(48:13):
Marion Scrimmagaw was part of as well. So a lot
of people felt disempowered by that change to the power
structure in the Northern Territory. It took jobs away from
Indigenous people in those communities when they no longer had
their own councils running their own councils. But the fact
that going back to the Little Children, a sacred report
(48:34):
that was out in the open, it was like ripping
a band off, band aid off a horrible festering saw
which needed to be exposed. And it empowered a lot
of Aboriginal women in those communities to take more of
a lead in that space as well. And you know,
my mum was one of those women. There was all
this converse, there was all this pushback from activists saying
(48:57):
this is all just about a land grab and all
these sorts of thing things. And I was actually on
the I was actually in remote communities, working, engaging with
sorry in town camps, engaging with town camps when during
the Gillard government, when they were delivering upgrades to those
town camps, and what the aim was to try and
bring those town camps to a standard with our suburbs
(49:21):
around Alice Springs instead, which was about civil works, you know,
basic things like that. So these are all the sorts
of things that came along at the same time, and
no one realizes that there were all these other elements
that came to it. But as a family, we were like,
thank god, someone is prepared to actually take seriously what's
(49:42):
going on in remote communities when it comes to the
fact that our kids are experiencing these horrible rates of
sexual abuse and that our women are experiencing these horrible
rates of DV. And an interesting thing is a year
or so ago I had a conversation with mel Braff.
He rang me to tell me that he said one
(50:06):
of the significant pushes behind initiating that intervention was that
he received a letter from a young Aboriginal woman living
in a town camp who wrote to him to say,
you know, each night I go to bed and I
don't know if i'll wake up the next day, whether
this is the night that I'll be murdered, and I've
got a baby, and basically outlined the conditions that she'd
(50:28):
been living in. And he described this young woman to me,
and from her circumstances, I thought to myself, Wow, I
feel like that's my cousin, you know. And I said
to him do you remember her name? And he said,
I'd have to go looking for it. I can't remember
(50:49):
off the top of my head. But I said, look,
I'm going to go and have a conversation my cousin.
And I did. I rang my cousin. I said, hey, listen,
you didn't happen to write a letter to mel Broff
and she said, yeah, I did. I'm like, wow, okay,
And her circumstances have changed significantly, and she is very
sought after interpreter and she does other wonderful work in
(51:13):
the indigenous space. And she got out of that situation
and her daughter is achieving remarkable things in her life now.
And her daughter is eighteen, and the kids that come
along are as well. So she escaped that, but I
just thought, you know, I was so surprised that that
(51:33):
was what, you know, part of that led to that.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Yeah, looking back at it, can you explain because I
know with the people in circles I mixed Indigenous communities,
there's a lot of people that were outraged by what
happened there. Do you understand where they're coming from? Can
you see their perspective on where they felt that? Why
are we being treated this way? There was rampant sexual
(51:58):
abuse in the Catholic Church? Why I didn't Why wasn't
there any intervention there? Comments like that that come out?
Do you understand where?
Speaker 2 (52:05):
Well, I guess there has been an intervention, you know,
and recognition from the Catholic Church and a response to that,
and there's been a redress scheme for those victims. So
I mean, that's sort of the thing that I'm calling
for right when it comes to our kids. And look,
a lot of the outrage was fueled by the activist class.
(52:27):
There were a lot of miss truths being told about
what was going on. You know, people in community, vulnerable
individuals who without a proper education, can't disseminate what's real
information and what isn't And so you know, there weren't
(52:50):
there wasn't a a an army tank going through a
community community.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
The army suggesting the medium miss leads.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
Oh my goodness, but that's the thing, right, People going, oh,
they're going to take away our babies and they're going
to do this, and they're whipped into a frenzy by
those who should have known better as well, Like the
army were there to help with health checks. They were
supporting the community, much like what would happen if there
was some kind of natural disaster when the army goes in,
(53:22):
you know, just setting up tents and doing health checks
and those sorts of things. And why would you want
to not allow for that to occur or to go ahead?
And it wasn't designed to try and say that all
Aboriginal men are pedophiles. Again, it's prioritizing. It's going, oh,
how are we going to be perceived as opposed to
(53:44):
let's protect protect our vulnerable, let's protect our children. That's
that's what I can't get around. Why there is such
a such a need to you know, take offense and
be defensive as opposed to go this is actually about
our victims and our vulnerable, not about anything else.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Okay, focusing on preventing children becoming victims. Yeah, absolutely, point
in time, so it's from two thousand and seven, let's
say through the twenty twenty two. Do you think the
current Northern territories in a better situation because of the intervention?
Because there's issues going on there? Now? Do you think
(54:26):
it was a good thing or a bad thing with
the benefit of hindsight looking back at the history.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
Look, I think it has I'm not saying it was perfect.
It has its upsides and its downside to it. And
the situation is that, yes, Aboriginal people feel disempowered in communities,
but there are other factors involved in that as well,
and they're the sorts of things that I hope to address.
(54:52):
You know, if I've successfully become a Minister for Indigenous Australians.
It comes around empowerment through participating a actively in the
economy which allows for people to stand on their own
two feet, and welfare dependency is a huge factor in
why things aren't progressing out in communities. Wealth generation or
(55:13):
inability to create wealth generation in communities is a huge factor. Again,
just going back to this committee that I've just been
sitting on and the Productivity Commission have outlined that land
rights and land and sea rights hasn't equated to better
(55:34):
outcomes as yet. But the environment, the Land Rights Act
that we are governed under in the Northern Territory doesn't
necessarily allow for traditional owners to utilize their land for
the benefit of economic development. There's no home ownership opportunities,
there's no private land ownership opportunities, and we know that
that is what helps people to create wealth, to stand
(55:58):
on their own two feet, to live comfortably, to ensure
that their kids go to school, to create jobs.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
And I want.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
To work toward creating that environment where traditional owners become
job creators, not just have a job, but become job
creators so that they can participate in the economy like
everybody else in this country has the opportunity to. And
that's what we haven't got to yet. And when you've
got mums and dads working, kids are more likely to
(56:26):
go to school, kids are going to get an education.
But our curriculum needs to be such that it is
allowing for kids in communities to be able to leave
school and actually have the appropriate level of education to
either go on to further to go into employment or
go on to further education.
Speaker 1 (56:48):
It's a vicious cycle. If a family has been living
in welfare and it doesn't need to be an Indigenous family.
I've seen families where three generations of white fellows and
they have and have the job. That doesn't create a
good role model or an understanding of what life is about.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
And can I just stay on that as well. And
like in my previous research findings is that the further
you move away from a city, the more marginalized Australians become,
both Indigenous and non Indigenous because there is less of
an access to services. There is less availability of jobs
and those sorts of things to be able to provide
(57:26):
that and that goes for everybody.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
There's a region. Yeah, there's problems within the city, like
living with living within the city as well, But I
agree the services across the board, the more remote, the
more difficult it is to match those services. We'll finish
off on part one. It's hard to find a question.
I can ask you that it's not controversial. I'm looking
(57:51):
for them. But yeah, in the introduction I said that
you've got strong opinions and you're prepared to pair the
back I'll ask one question here, just a general question
that I'm just curious. If you were to speak to
someone from overseas and they asked how Indigenous people are
treated in this country, what would you say, Well.
Speaker 2 (58:09):
I'd say Indigenous people have incredible opportunity in this country.
There are many people in this country who want what's
best for Indigenous Australians. No country, there's no country on
the face of the earth that doesn't have its handful
of you know, those who have racist attitudes across the board.
(58:33):
But yeah, otherwise, I believe that in general terms, most
Australians want what's best for Indigenous Australians. And as I said,
and governments have been bending over backwards to ensure that
there is plenty of opportunity that is being provided for
Indigenous Australians. That's what i'd say.
Speaker 1 (58:55):
Okay, we'll leave, we'll leave it that, let's take a
break and we'll be back in part two and I'm
sure I'll have some more interesting questions for it. Thank you,
Jeers M.
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life the average person is never
exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world today,
(00:46):
I spake, We've just senter Price. I think it's fair
to say Just Center is a controversial character, an Aboriginal
lady who is a senator in Federal Parliament and has
been the Shadow Minister for Indigenous Affairs. It's twenty twenty three.
Her views on Aboriginal issues often caused division, but as
(01:08):
you'll find out today, she's prepared to stand by her comments.
We spoke about a life and her views on a
wide range of Indigenous issues. Let's see what you think
about Senator just Center Price Ciner. I've followed your career
for a long time. You're not hard to hard to miss.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I think I'm all over the place.
I can't even escape myself.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
And look, I think the type of topics you're talking about, mayors,
you're talking about, it's polarizing and they're difficult. Conversations that
you have in the position that you take on certain
issues are always always hard. I'm going to ask a
personal question first up? What toll has it taken on you?
(02:00):
People would recognize you as the voice of the referendum
of supporting the no vote and different sences that you've taken.
What toll has it taken on you personally?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Well, there's a sense of not feeling like my life
is my own. I guess I know that my kids
and my husband probably feel that I'm no longer you know,
this sort of care free, more relaxed person than what
I used to be. And in many ways sometimes they
(02:34):
can see me as distant because my head is so
full of what's going on. You know what, I'm what
the latest challenge is, the latest thing I'm trying to
find an answer for, and those sorts of things. And yeah,
there's there's that sort of sense of yeah, not feeling
like my life is my own anymore.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I understand that. Do you have the ability to switch
off when you when you can step boy, when you're
with family and friends?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I do. I do, And sometimes, like again, my family
will say, you know your armor's up, you need to
take your armor off. Go home and take your armor off.
And it can be hard to get into that right away.
And but yeah, look, I love being able to chill
out at home, be mum, you know, copper roasting from
(03:26):
my kids and my husband, be brought back down to
earth again. And yeah, it's my favorite favorite thing to do,
even just being at home doing the dishes, like feeling
like a normal person.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
It's good to dumb things down a little bit sometimes,
isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Ye?
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Your pressure pressure pressure, Okay, this is my escape. I
can be who I want to be there, just on that.
There's so much to talk about. Congratulations on your book too,
it's a it's an interesting read. You've certainly lived a life.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, thank you, it's been. It's been an credible journey
and a very daunting at times process and especially on
the cusp of its release, knowing just how much of
my life I guess I'd put out there for the
public to learn about and how thinking of how that
might be received as well as but you know, cathartic
(04:21):
at times, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to have
been able to do it well.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Your public profile is very much linked to your Indigenous background,
and quite often you're the person called in to make comments.
Do you when you speak as an Aboriginal lady, do
you feel that you're speaking for all Aboriginal people from
your life experience.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, No, definitely from my life experience. And that's a thing, right.
I Mean, it's a funny situation because when we look
at other people like we don't we don't see a
white fellow speaking and go, oh, they're speaking on behalf
of all white fellows, you know. But but for Indigenous
Australians it's a funny sort of position because on one hand,
(05:10):
you're going, you know, you've got your detractors, so you
don't speak on behalf of me. I was like, well, actually,
never claim to speak on behalf of you. But then
you're told that you know, if you're not saying what
they what your detractors want to hear, then you're a
sellout or you're a traitor. Well, so what is it
you know? Am I speaking? Am I supposed to be
speaking on behalf of you? Or not? But ultimately what
(05:31):
I my lived experience and coming from being able to
be the voice for those that want me to be
their voice, those those that don't get the opportunity to
be heard and really vulnerable marginalized people that need need
(05:53):
their truth to be heard. That's that's really you know
who I'm about speaking on behalf of and for in
order to make a positive difference in their lives and
to save lives. Really, that's really what it's about. And
let's face it, the truth is bloody confronting, but it's
necessary to put out there to overcome our great challenges.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Well, we're going to break it down the challenges and
the positions you take on a lot of issues. But
I can see the conundrum you've got there that you
don't speak for all of us. But if you speak,
why you're speaking on behalf And I'll chime in as
the white fellow at the table here too. There is
a perception. There is a perception that oh, you're Aboriginal,
(06:39):
therefore you're speaking for other Aboriginals, and like, is it
correct me if I'm wrong? But two hundred and fifty
different nations across the continent.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Well yeah, look, I mean in terms of language groups
that once upon a time there were of a five
hundred languages spoken across the continent. And you know there's
like a handful still around now as first languages. But yeah,
so we're talking different, you know, culturally linguistically diverse people
(07:13):
right across this continent.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, at one stage, okay, well, look diving into and
we've got so much to talk about. Your life, your upbringing,
you stepping into parliament, your life is a politician, your
thoughts on that world, which is probably more confronting than
the indigenous world in different ways, or more divisive. But
(07:37):
I think a good way to launch into it your
maiden speech at Parliament and it was two thy and
twenty two. I've just pulled an extract out from the
maiden speech. I'll read it through and then we'll break
down some things there. If that's okay. My vision, my hope,
my goal is that we can affect change it we'll
see women, children and other victims in these communities become
(07:59):
as safe as any of those living in Sydney, Melbourne
or any other Australian city. My goal is to halt
the pointless virtue signaling and focus on solutions that bring
real change that changes the lives of Australia's most vulnerable citizens,
Solutions that give them real lives, not the enduring nightmare
of violence and terror that they currently live. It is
(08:20):
not good enough that the streets of our Northern Territory
towns and other towns across regional Australia have gangs of
children age from six to sixteen wandering and around with
no adult supervision in the early hours of the morning.
It's not good enough that almost all of these children
have witnessed or been subject to normalized alcohol abuse, domestic
family and sexual violence throughout their young lives, and is
(08:43):
the reason for their presence on our streets. Such neglecting
great numbers would not be accepted in prosperous suburbs of
any of our capital cities. Extract from your speech, you
can't really argue with the sentiment there.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah right, I mean it's true why we're Australia is
an incredibly tolerant nation, but we can be tolerant to
a fault, to the point that you know that we
did do have children as young as six and six
to sixteen on our streets late at night, at the
early hours of the morning, that you know, those circumstances
(09:21):
continue in twenty twenty five. And when we contrast that
and see a lot of you know, a lot of
a lot of people living in our in our in
our cities. When they do visit places like Alice Springs
or you know, remote communities, there is a stark contrast
in lives, in the way lives are lived, and in
(09:44):
many ways it's a real culture shock as well. But
this is just reality for us in places like our
springs and remote communities, and that's what needs to be
better understood and we shouldn't excuse it. We should never
excuse use it, or you know, especially especially when we
(10:05):
want to. I mean, I seek to hold accountable perpetrators
within my own family, within my own community, but for
some reason that's frowned upon to do so because our
perpetrators are also framed as victims of colonization. But that
doesn't help the situation. So yeah, again it's about confronting
(10:30):
reality and demonstrating to the rest of the country, this
is the reality of what goes on in these places
where we experience the highest rates of marginalization in the country.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Right, understanding that generational trauma. Where As yeah, it could
be said as an excuse, but your your position, if
I understand, is you want to break the cycle. It's
got to stop somewhere totally.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Look, you know, trauma is as a human experience and
it doesn't discriminate like human beings around the globe have
experienced trauma and intergenerational trauma if you like. So why
is it that it I guess we allow it in
(11:15):
some ways in the indigenous community to prevent us from
progressing as individuals in our own right. You know, yes,
we have to acknowledge it and realize that it's there
and it exists. But we also have to acknowledge that
we as human beings and individuals, without considering our racial
heritage or anything like that, are capable of wonderful, great things,
(11:40):
and there is We're empowered when we take responsibility not
just for our own circumstances, but when we take responsibility
for how we are within our own families and communities
at the same time. That is what that's where empowerment
comes from, as personal responsibility. A lot of the time,
(12:01):
the argument, the political argument, is that we don't have
to because it's colonization's fault and those that have stood
to gain from colonization are somehow also responsible. But we've
all gained something from colonization. As much as it has
played a part in the detriment of Indigenous Australians, they're
(12:21):
also there are also aspects that we have been able
to progress forward from at the same time.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Okay, in that, just from that quote, the lives of
Australia's most vulnerable citizens, you're referring in that in context,
in full context, you're referring to Indigenous people.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
But yes, talking best and I guess in that talking
about marginalized Indigenous Australians too, because you know, as I've
always said, we're not just marginalized because of our racial heritage.
There are some Indigenous Australians doing, living very successful lives
and a growing middle class. But I'm talking specifically about
marginalized Indigenous Australians.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Okay, why can you offer them? It's a real broad question,
and I'll warn you I'm probably going to ask some
dumb questions. But it's such absolutely, it's such a complex
issue and looking at it from the outside, and I've
been involved in Indigenous matters, but I'm a white guy
and I never speak with great knowledge. I speak with
(13:19):
experiences what I've seen. But so if I ask some
dumb questions, just cut me some latitude on this. But
we'll try and we'll try and get people across to understand.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
It's all about understanding.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Talking about So why do you think the Indigenous community
looked at there's our vulnerable citizens in the country.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Well, I mean, in terms of our most marginalized, we
experienced the highest rates of domestic and family violence, of
sexual abuse, of neglect, of all those things, the lowest
rates of you know, education, and lowest rates of employment.
That's that's the most marginalized in this country are predominantly
(14:02):
Indigenous Australians. And in my previous work as part of
the Center for Independent Studies heading up the Indigenous Research Program,
what we uncovered was that our most marginalized exist in
regional and remote parts of this country, but particularly so
(14:22):
more acutely within places like the Northern Territory, Western Australia
and North Queensland, Far North Queensland. And so for me,
it's really important to identify who they are, which things
like Closing the Gap Report and all these initiatives don't
(14:44):
necessarily prioritize the needs of our most marginalized, but take
a blanket approach toward Indigenous Australians to suggest that we're
all marginalized and just because we're indigenous, right, And as
I say, we've got to be far more focused and
far more honest about how we approach that.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
And that type of position I would imagine within the
Indigenous community across the board that might bring some conflict
to or some pushback.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
It does in that an industry has developed out of
you know, indigenous direction in Indigenous policy, there is you know,
my focus is on well, you know, the figure of
thirty three billion dollars being spent on Indigenous affairs was
(15:39):
determined I think back in twenty seventeen, and we don't
have a current figure on how much that spend is
right now, but as I said, it's usually spent on
measures to support and advance Indigenous Australians without without saying okay,
but who are we actually looking at here? And so
(16:00):
an industry has developed out of that. I mean, there
are many livelihoods that have been created in that space.
There are many organizations that are tasked with improving the
lives of marginalized Indigenous Australians that, in my view, many
of which are failing. But if I point these things out,
I'm going to be targeted, you know, if I if
(16:23):
I want to take a more honest approach to this matter,
I will be targeted because there are those who are
going to feel threatened by the fact that I'm pointing, Well,
it's not just governments that are failing, it's those that
are funded by governments that are failing. And there is
very little accountability in this space. So calling for these
(16:43):
things will naturally ensure that I that I have enemies.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
And in calling that they just clarify it where the
money is not going where it supposedly should go to.
Or people who have said creating an industry and I'm
guessing here, but it wouldn't just be Aboriginal people are
making a profit from it or creating an industry. So
when you want it scrutinize, you want it scrutinized across
(17:10):
the board, not just the money that's gone to the Blackfellows.
Want whoever's got control of this money and how it's
been used.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, whoever's receiving funds that are supposed to go to
improving the lives of Indigenous Australians.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Okay, you touched on health, education, crime. What sort of
figures are we looking at? And again, it's hard to
generalize because we're going back into exactly what you've pointed
out where we make mistakes. But it is known that
the high incarceration rate as an ex scop, I know
(17:43):
the challenges that corrective services, the high incarceration of Indigenous people.
Health is a problem, education, employment, the welfare system will
relying on welfare. What if you're people that haven't really
bored into it, tell them what we're talking about on
the scale.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, yeah, Look, an incarceration is a huge issue, but
sometimes I feel like we try to deal with the
symptoms and not the causes of the matter. And there's
I mean, I can recommend a really good book by
Don Born Weatherburn called Arresting Incarceration Pathways out of Indigenous Imprisonment,
(18:25):
who headed up the Bureau of criminology here in New
South Wales for.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
So of him and yeah, yeah, yeah, And.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Basically he identifies that I think it's between sixty five
and seventy percent of incarcerated Indigenous men are incarcerated for
acts of violence. And I mean, it's it's a horrible truth.
But these are cycles, obviously generational cycles. And my argument
(18:57):
is that we need to this particular issue because if
we address the violence issue, we'll see a dramatic decrease
in rates of incarceration amongst Indigenous men, but also Indigenous women.
This is increasing in terms of incarceration rates. The reason
(19:17):
why Indigenous women are being incarcerated, and and one of
an argument that I've always put forward, which I still
you know to this day, well I'll always get pushed
back on, is the fact that I know from lived
experience that in places like where we have the highest
rates of DV in the Northern Territory is that in
(19:38):
traditional culture violence is accepted, but all small scale societies
on the face of the earth used violence as a
means of social control. And for us in Central Australia,
the frontier was not that long ago. My grandparents first
saw white fellows in their early adolescence. So traditional culture
that accepted violence as a means of social control is
(20:02):
partly the reason why we have such high rates of violence,
because men, women and children will act out violently because
it's accepted in traditional culture. But also there are elements
of traditional culture that suggests that women are not as
important as men. You know, it's patriarchal society, and if
(20:24):
if we don't acknowledge this, we're not going to overcome
the DV crisis that we're confronted with. And again in
the book, it's lived experience my mother becoming a mother,
at being pregnant at thirteen, at a mother at fourteen,
and under those circumstances. It's questionable as to how that
(20:45):
came about. You know, she won't provide so much detail,
but I don't believe that my mother was willingly. You know,
she was forced into a relationship with the father of
my brother, because in traditional terms, if you have a
childhood to an abaginal man, you have to then be
married to that man in traditional terms. So there's those
(21:08):
elements of traditional culture that play out significantly in the
lives of women in places like the Northern Territory and
more broadly, they don't have opportunity to speak or have
a platform, a media platform, or are often if so,
are too scared to talk about the reality of what
(21:29):
goes on in communities. And then in the broader context
and indigenous affairs, the narrative is that we simply blame
colonization for what's going on. And also, as I've been told,
you know, I shouldn't speak ill of our own people
because that is supposed to then encourage racists toward us.
(21:54):
We'll hang on a second. If we take it all back,
what we want to do is stop people from losing
their lives. Racism is the problem of the racist. It's
their mental health issue to deal with. We shouldn't make
it ours right. But what we should do is ensure
that our most vulnerable, our women and children, are kept safe.
And that is my argument. So if it means that
(22:17):
we have to highlight the reality of the circumstances, if
it means that we have to highlight in traditional culture
we do accept violence as a means of social control,
but that we shouldn't and have those hard conversations, then
that's what I'm doing, and that's what I'm prepared to do,
And we should all be prepared to do that.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
And saying that, when you explain it that way, it
sounds quite reasonable. But the pushback is, well, you disrespecting
our culture or this is our business, this is the
way we deal things. I think in your book your
auntie that disappeared and suspected murder a long time ago,
and that was a horrendous situation, but it felt, and
(22:56):
I put my hat on as a homicide detective, that
no one wanted to to talk about it. There would
have been people that could have offered something and chose
not to come forth because of the shame of coming forward.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Well absolutely, not just the shame, but probably the circumstances
around it. That my aunt's promised husband had already murdered
and done time after murdering his first wife, but that
under again under customary law, she didn't want to go
(23:30):
to that relationship and be forced into it, and she
was being forced into it. But under customery law, he
had every right to punish her for, you know, not
not doing as was her obligation to do, was to
go and be his wife. And so those involved in
(23:52):
that circumstance that were forcing her into that, we're also
doing it on the belief that it was appropriate culturally
appropriate to do so. And you know, the saddest part
about that whole thing is that her father, who was
a very prominent man, my mother's uncle and you know,
(24:14):
held up as a revered elder and a land rights
activist and all those things, evidently knew what went on,
but took that secret to his grave and in that
also told a story that she had run away, that
she has had eight sons living in Queensland, has eight sons.
(24:37):
He he he ensured that that story you know, made
the rounds was was, which is part of a cover
up as far as i'm co Yeah, that's right, because
why would you why would you do that if you
in fact you know your daughter is not really alive.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, it's a it's a sad case. And I know
you've still hoped to get get answers. So yeah, good luck,
good luck with that. I'm doing what you've probably gets
you in the trouble a lot of the times because
we're focusing on negative aspects of the culture. But let's say,
and quite often I hear you talk about, okay, things
(25:16):
like you've just explained, there there's a lot of positives
about the culture, and there's some really I can only
speak from my experience. I've met some really impressive male elders. Absolutely,
some what I would consider good role models.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah. Absolutely. And in my book, you know, I talk
a lot about my grandfather and my grandfather's story, and
I think my grandfather was revolutionary forward thinker for a
man of his time, who embraced change instead of fighting it,
if you like, because you know, he knew that life
was tough. You know, before white fellows came along, it
(25:53):
was killed or be killed in terms of the when
you would come across your traditional enemies. You had to
live off the land in a very harsh desert environment.
And when this change came, he knew had to be
he had to be part of it because it meant
not just surviving, but thriving. And my grandfather also, I
(26:15):
guess I'd get it from him where he pushed back
on tradition in that when he and my grandmother got together,
my grandmother was already part of a polygamous marriage, was
like a third wife, and my grandfather and grandmother wanted
to be together, and so my grandfather defied tradition. He
copped it a couple of times and got a beating
from the traditional promised husband, but in the end he
(26:39):
was able to then take my grandmother as his wife.
And when he saw that that my mother wanted to
make her own choices and fought to have an education,
he backed her up in that. You know, he could
have very easily said to my mother, look, you, while
you've escaped your first marriage, and I wouldn't call it
(27:02):
a marriage, you are actually supposed to be traditionally becoming
a second wife in the marriage that your older sisters
involved in. You need to go to that now if
you're not going to be with this horrible, violent individual.
But both my mum's traditional promised husband and my grandfather
(27:25):
put my mum's wishes before traditional culture. To me, they're
the kind of men that are you know, they're all throughout,
and they're wonderful men who care and love for their families.
And you know, that's why I guess I've always celebrated
(27:49):
my grandfather for that, for the man that he was
and the love that he gave and the things that
he believed in. And there are absolutely a lot of
men like that. I know, there are men that think
much like I do. But for fear of retribution, you know,
they keep that to themselves as well, because men can
(28:11):
also be targeted violently. Men are also victims of violence
as well good men. So you know, when people try
to argue that I paint all of our men as horrible,
when all I'm doing is looking at the facts, When
all I'm saying is Okay, our kids are experiencing experiencing
the highest rates of sexual abuse. To say that doesn't
(28:33):
mean to say that all our men are pedophiles. That's
not what I'm saying. And in terms of wonderful aspects
about culture, you know, I often share those as well,
like the fact that you know, I was brought up
by my elders to believe that if you are conceived
on this country, because what we believe is that you're
when you're conceived, your baby spirit has leapt from the
(28:53):
ground into your mother's belly, giving you your personal dreaming,
your connection to that country by the creator ancestor that
created that country. You now are connected to that creative ancestor,
that's your personal dreaming. So that anyone who's conceived on
this country is also connected to this country spiritually in
that way, regardless of racial heritage. You know, that's the
(29:15):
part of my culture that I love and I celebrate,
which is about being completely inclusive and recognizing others as
human beings, not as people divided by race. And that
to me is what true reconciliation looks like.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Okay, we've got right into the hard stuff without even
finding out a little bit about yourself. So tell us
where you were born and what you were just relaying there.
I was reading that in your book and I found
it fascinating and very educational, so it was interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
So my parents were living on Melville Island when I
was born, So I was born in Darwin and a
week after my birth flew back to the islands and
spent spent some few more months there. Mom and dad
were there for a few more months before they decided
to move to the Kimberly. But given that my conception
(30:07):
site comes from Teewee Country and the Mangotolby family pretty
much adopted us as family. And I share, you know,
the dreaming spirit with the Utika Bay Tikabanger, which is
crocodile dreaming clan up on the Tiwi Islands. And so
you know, if if I go back there and during ceremony,
(30:31):
participate and dance with the crocodile clan. That's my connection
to the Tewee Islands, my personal dreamings, my inherited dreamings
coming from my Wabury side of the family ung Napa
which is rain and warliw fire. And so my responsibility
is in Wadbury Country around those choko By stories, so
(30:54):
around Nappa and fire random fire. But yeah, so Mum
and Dad moved to took another teaching job in the
Kimberly and Nunkenbar in community of Nunkolnbar. So I was
just a toddler when they took that job. And yeah,
we lived in like a little in a caravan basically
(31:17):
in that didn't have very good air conditioning and would
live through the wet the wet season and under really
incredible conditions. Like I just sort of think I could
probably never live in the Kimberley like that. Again now
understanding in many ways I can't remember because I was
a toddler, But how Mum and Dad did that, and
(31:41):
especially Mum being a desert woman growing up in a
dry climate, yeah, it amazes me. Just before I turned three,
Mum and Dad decided to move to Alice Springs, so
a bit closer to Yundamu where Mom's from, a bit
closer to family. And yeah, I mean all my life
I've been spent a lot of time at at under Moves,
like a second home, because all my family lived there,
(32:05):
you know, spend a lot of time as a kid,
would go camping, like mom and Dad would just pick
up and we'd be gone out bush or at camping
John and find the next lot of rock art that
Dad felt like he needed to go and discover, or
you know, going out with family and going hunting and
with my my aunties and my grandmother and Mum and
(32:25):
my cousins just walking around barefoot, you know, out on
our country and and yeah, my my, my, my auntie
bopping to Goanna's on the head at once because they're mating,
you know, and all kinds of wonderful skills. You get
two in one that with that if you can come
(32:46):
across two goannas like that. But yeah, that was and
a lot of my family living in town camps around
Alice Springs as well, So a lot of time in
in town.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Camps and in the in the town camps, you were
seeing good and the bad. A lot of lot of
lot of the bad, I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Yeah, Like, I mean, I have really happy memories too,
in town camps and just being with my cousins and stuff,
and but yeah, there's there's some really, it's certainly balanced
with some really you know, horrible memories as well. And
seeing seeing a woman in my extended family, her little
(33:24):
boy running from her because she's completely drunk and emotional
and got a knife in her hand, and him my
other aunties, you know, grabbing hold of the little fella
and comforting him while his mum's standing there stabbing herself
in the leg. You know, experiences like that, experiences of
as I've mentioned in the book, getting up in the
(33:45):
middle of the night and rescuing my family members from
you know, drunken violence that's unfolding in the town camp.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, and that's so all the all those things of
what's created the person you are now. I suppose, Yeah,
when did you? And we're going to talk about your
music career a little bit later. You're not getting getting
out of here without that. We'll do that in part too,
I think. But what inspired you? The politics? I know
your mum was very much in the politics and was
(34:15):
a spokesperson and an elder that would offer opinions not
the ways of popular opinions. That's a sense I get.
What inspired you to get into politics.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Probably the fact that it appeared as though those empowered
didn't have a clue as to what was going on
in the ground in communities, and you know that lived
experience was being sugarcoated or ignored in many ways. And
I think, you know, watching this abaginal industry flourish, but
(34:47):
without anything any anything significant, any change occurring on the ground.
And also I guess knowing that there's some people who
perpetrators who were being revered as elders, and think, king,
why is that? Why do we do that? And we
can't we can't do that? How does that? How does
that impact us positively? How what is that? What message
(35:10):
does that tell victims in our communities?
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah, well, you you bring up a point, and I
think one thing and looking at it doesn't matter which culture,
which you know, which community, children need to be protected.
And I think that's a no brainer. And you know,
culture shouldn't override the protection of children. That's a simple philosophy.
(35:35):
I also picked up on one of your many documented
talks and you've even said it here today, and I
like that attitude that prevention is better than cure. So
when we're talking about the crime in the streets and
kids getting in the trouble, what's your ideas of preventing that?
Like diversionary situations like the high incarceration rate. I can
(35:56):
talk here generally, but I know Northern Territory it's on
another level. For young Indigenous kids.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Incarceration comes down to the failures of the child protection system.
You know, it's and there are a number of different
failures I believe in the child protection system, you know,
just speaking in a committee just before actually about asking
questions around the kinship principle and how that's been prioritized
(36:25):
for kids and this notion that culture and being connected
to country is what should be the priority, Whereas my
idea of a priority is upholding the human rights of
these kids to be able to live lives safely, you know,
not exposed to domestic and family violence and sexual abuse
and having their needs met. That should be the priority.
(36:49):
But I feel as though the ideology and organizations child
protection organizations is that it's more about culture maintaining culture
than it is about human rights. But then at the
same time, there are failings in the child protection system
(37:10):
that regardless of all of that, kids are still not
properly their circumstances aren't properly considered. All there's potentially cares
in the system that are doing wrong by these kids
when they're supposed to be in that system to be
protected as well.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Is there and he will throw within the silly white
guy comments, but the stolen generation that the way it's portrayed,
everyone carries shame with it and different things. One of
the articles I read or one of the speeches that
you've given you you talked about when you're talking about children,
the kinship it should override the protection of the children
(37:51):
should override it. Where children are taken from one family
and placed into another, taken off of family that they've
been placed into because they're not indigenous, and to keep
that cultural connection. I can see in an ideal world
that would work, but you gave examples where it doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yeah. Yeah, And that's the thing is to understand that
whole family environment. You know, there are wonderful things about
being part of huge Aboriginal families. The fact that there
are so many that are prepared to take care of kids.
In some circumstances, when it's grandparents, often they're overwhelmed and
(38:30):
actually don't have the capacity to take on a lot
of kids. And in some ways and in some circumstances,
there are still connections with potential predators within families if
kids remain in those circumstances. I'm also well aware of circumstances,
particularly in the Northern Territory, where children have been put
(38:51):
into foster care from when they're a baby, and then
they're growing up in the suburbs of you know, places
like other Springs, and they are they have special needs,
they might be kids with fas D, and so all
the health and mental health services available to them, a
specialist services available to them are in that environment in
(39:12):
the suburbs. And then, you know, they get to the
age of five or so, and suddenly somebody who says
that they are kin who this child might not even know,
a complete stranger to them, living out in a remote
community where there is no access to all those services
that supports that child's upbringing, suddenly become the care of
(39:32):
that kid, and that kid is taken out of that
environment that they've only ever known and putting out into
a remote community in circumstances where there are known perpetrators
in those communities and pedophiles in those communities as well,
So those kids are effectively put back in the path
of danger. And I know of circumstances where that's been
(39:54):
done and those children have been retraumatized, and those children
have been you know, abused once more and then having
to be taken back out and back with the original
foster parents Like this is it's criminal to do that
to that child in the first place. And my argument
is that I don't care what the racial heritage is
(40:16):
of the career for that child. If that child is
being loved, cared for, protected and having all their needs met,
then that that should override any other decisions. I know
of circumstances where some kin will put their hand up
because they know that there is a monetary element to
(40:39):
it where there's they they then they then have access
to payments for that child, but they're not necessarily putting
the needs of that child first. And I mean, I
know also of indigenous foster parents who are overwhelmed in
their circumstances doing a remarkable job as well. So for me,
(41:05):
you know, it's about ultimately the protection of that child
is it should always be the first priority. And you know,
when I talk about faster parents, some of those foster
parents have worked in the police force in child abuse,
you know, on the front line, so they know who
perpetrators are and to be taken care of a child,
(41:27):
for that child to be removed from their care, and
they've done everything they can to fight the child protection
system to say this is wrong, and yet it still occurs.
That's where we have major problems.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Okay. In discussions I have with Indigenous communities and just
things I'm interested in, they talk about community leads solutions
as distinct from government policy. The community want ownership in
what's going to impact on them. I know that, and
I might be misinterpreted in this, but sometimes you'll criticize
(42:00):
for not believing in community lead solutions, but that's a
misrepresentation with a.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Yeah, you know, I absolutely believe in community lead because
I think it's it's well, it's coming from the community.
The community know what's what's going on on the ground
within their community, and empowering those organizations to do so
is great. But as long as there are checks and balances,
as long as they are demonstrating outcomes, as long as
(42:35):
there isn't a level of accountability as well involved, as
long as you know, because there's you know, there's a
number of recent examples of community organized original organizations where
their chairperson or a board member has a domestic violence history,
and that there's excuses made for those individuals and their positions.
(42:59):
So to me, that is that is there's the lowering
of expectations in Indigenous affairs and within some of these organizations.
But governance is primary. It is so important and if
we don't get that right, how do we know that
these organizations are delivering as they should? But I don't believe,
(43:20):
you know, I think there should be freedom of choice
for Indigenous Australians as well, because yes, we should invest
in community driven or Aboriginal identified organizations and those sorts
of things. But and that was another question that I
put to the Productivity Commission today during the Senate hearing,
was that is their data that draws a comparison between
(43:43):
Aboriginal community lead and mainstream that'd be interesting And there
is no data, right, there is no data. So while
you know it is it is good to have community
led and I just I don't believe in the concept
that only Aboriginal people know how to to better support
Aboriginal people. I think we're all humans, and I think
(44:05):
as humans and part of a wider community. You know,
take for example, addiction is a human condition, and that
Western society has developed tools in order to help overcome addiction,
and why wouldn't we draw on those tools given it
it is a human condition to be able to help
(44:25):
all people, including Indigenous Australians, overcome those things. So I
just don't believe in the concept that only Aboriginal people
know how to help Aboriginal people, because then we just
have Asian people just helping Asian people, and white people
are helping white people. But we're all people ultimately.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but I know those
type of comments other people would say, we don't need
to be told what to do, we know what to do.
Some good community led projects. I've seen Redfern not clean
slate and tribal worry it that was I've had Shane
(45:01):
Phillips on the podcast before. I'm amazed by the work
that they did. And this was when we're talking. Redfern
was a volatile place and there was a lot of
crime and a heavy indigenous population, and clean slate without
prejudice and tribal boxing had some great results. And to
this day they're still running a great organization and doing
(45:23):
good work. I see that from a cop or ex
cops point of view.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Yeah, And look like I know some wonderful organizations like
the Glen you know on the Central Coast and like
Black Rock in the Hunter doing amazing work to provide
employment pathways for prisoners. Like they're absolutely like wonderful programs
that are demonstrating that they're providing outcomes and should absolutely
(45:49):
be supported. And there's plenty of examples of that right
around the country.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
So yeah, I mean, I'm not yeah, I never suggest
to discount one for the other, but we need a
broad range of all of those.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Yeah, Okay, I'm just trying to try to understand because
I hear the stuff that oh no, this is what
she says and she means this, and so breaking it
down the Northern Territory intervention that always gets people's opinions
very very emotional about that. It was two thousand and
seven where it first started. Do you want to explain
(46:26):
what that meant to you? As an Aboriginal person when
that came in, because it ran for it was only
stopped in twenty twenty two or twenty fifteen. I think
they had called it something else, but it ran till
twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
So there's still some policies in place as a result
of that stronger futures. I think it was then sort
of overhauled by labor afterwards, and policies under that came
from that initially. And yeah, so when that occurred, it
was like breaking the seal. It was like, you know,
(47:07):
breaking the glass, the glass ceiling, if you like, because
for so long we've known about so many cases of abuse,
sexual abuse in remote communities and the little children are sacred.
Report was smashing that wide open, which led to the
intervention and it's and you know a lot of people
(47:30):
demonize it and say that it disempowered Aboriginal people and
a lot of the time, well a lot of Aboriginal
people and communities are told that they are disempowered by
it and power was taken away from them. What they
don't realize is that the territory labor government at that
time broke down Aboriginal community councils disempowered them and created
(47:51):
councils super shires throughout the Northern Territory. And people get
that mixed up with the intervention. That wasn't an initiative
of the intervention, that was actually a Territory Labor Government
initiative which in fact a current Minister for Indigenous Astraliansmulandarry
McCarthy was part of, and our current member for Lingiari,
(48:13):
Marion Scrimmagaw was part of as well. So a lot
of people felt disempowered by that change to the power
structure in the Northern Territory. It took jobs away from
Indigenous people in those communities when they no longer had
their own councils running their own councils. But the fact
that going back to the Little Children, a sacred report
(48:34):
that was out in the open, it was like ripping
a band off, band aid off a horrible festering saw
which needed to be exposed. And it empowered a lot
of Aboriginal women in those communities to take more of
a lead in that space as well. And you know,
my mum was one of those women. There was all
this converse, there was all this pushback from activists saying
(48:57):
this is all just about a land grab and all
these sorts of thing things. And I was actually on
the I was actually in remote communities, working, engaging with
sorry in town camps, engaging with town camps when during
the Gillard government, when they were delivering upgrades to those
town camps, and what the aim was to try and
bring those town camps to a standard with our suburbs
(49:21):
around Alice Springs instead, which was about civil works, you know,
basic things like that. So these are all the sorts
of things that came along at the same time, and
no one realizes that there were all these other elements
that came to it. But as a family, we were like,
thank god, someone is prepared to actually take seriously what's
(49:42):
going on in remote communities when it comes to the
fact that our kids are experiencing these horrible rates of
sexual abuse and that our women are experiencing these horrible
rates of DV. And an interesting thing is a year
or so ago I had a conversation with mel Braff.
He rang me to tell me that he said one
(50:06):
of the significant pushes behind initiating that intervention was that
he received a letter from a young Aboriginal woman living
in a town camp who wrote to him to say,
you know, each night I go to bed and I
don't know if i'll wake up the next day, whether
this is the night that I'll be murdered, and I've
got a baby, and basically outlined the conditions that she'd
(50:28):
been living in. And he described this young woman to me,
and from her circumstances, I thought to myself, Wow, I
feel like that's my cousin, you know. And I said
to him do you remember her name? And he said,
I'd have to go looking for it. I can't remember
(50:49):
off the top of my head. But I said, look,
I'm going to go and have a conversation my cousin.
And I did. I rang my cousin. I said, hey, listen,
you didn't happen to write a letter to mel Broff
and she said, yeah, I did. I'm like, wow, okay,
And her circumstances have changed significantly, and she is very
sought after interpreter and she does other wonderful work in
(51:13):
the indigenous space. And she got out of that situation
and her daughter is achieving remarkable things in her life now.
And her daughter is eighteen, and the kids that come
along are as well. So she escaped that, but I
just thought, you know, I was so surprised that that
(51:33):
was what, you know, part of that led to that.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Yeah, looking back at it, can you explain because I
know with the people in circles I mixed Indigenous communities,
there's a lot of people that were outraged by what
happened there. Do you understand where they're coming from? Can
you see their perspective on where they felt that? Why
are we being treated this way? There was rampant sexual
(51:58):
abuse in the Catholic Church? Why I didn't Why wasn't
there any intervention there? Comments like that that come out?
Do you understand where?
Speaker 2 (52:05):
Well, I guess there has been an intervention, you know,
and recognition from the Catholic Church and a response to that,
and there's been a redress scheme for those victims. So
I mean, that's sort of the thing that I'm calling
for right when it comes to our kids. And look,
a lot of the outrage was fueled by the activist class.
(52:27):
There were a lot of miss truths being told about
what was going on. You know, people in community, vulnerable
individuals who without a proper education, can't disseminate what's real
information and what isn't And so you know, there weren't
(52:50):
there wasn't a a an army tank going through a
community community.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
The army suggesting the medium miss leads.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
Oh my goodness, but that's the thing, right, People going, oh,
they're going to take away our babies and they're going
to do this, and they're whipped into a frenzy by
those who should have known better as well, Like the
army were there to help with health checks. They were
supporting the community, much like what would happen if there
was some kind of natural disaster when the army goes in,
(53:22):
you know, just setting up tents and doing health checks
and those sorts of things. And why would you want
to not allow for that to occur or to go ahead?
And it wasn't designed to try and say that all
Aboriginal men are pedophiles. Again, it's prioritizing. It's going, oh,
how are we going to be perceived as opposed to
(53:44):
let's protect protect our vulnerable, let's protect our children. That's
that's what I can't get around. Why there is such
a such a need to you know, take offense and
be defensive as opposed to go this is actually about
our victims and our vulnerable, not about anything else.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Okay, focusing on preventing children becoming victims. Yeah, absolutely, point
in time, so it's from two thousand and seven, let's
say through the twenty twenty two. Do you think the
current Northern territories in a better situation because of the intervention?
Because there's issues going on there? Now? Do you think
(54:26):
it was a good thing or a bad thing with
the benefit of hindsight looking back at the history.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
Look, I think it has I'm not saying it was perfect.
It has its upsides and its downside to it. And
the situation is that, yes, Aboriginal people feel disempowered in communities,
but there are other factors involved in that as well,
and they're the sorts of things that I hope to address.
(54:52):
You know, if I've successfully become a Minister for Indigenous Australians.
It comes around empowerment through participating a actively in the
economy which allows for people to stand on their own
two feet, and welfare dependency is a huge factor in
why things aren't progressing out in communities. Wealth generation or
(55:13):
inability to create wealth generation in communities is a huge factor. Again,
just going back to this committee that I've just been
sitting on and the Productivity Commission have outlined that land
rights and land and sea rights hasn't equated to better
(55:34):
outcomes as yet. But the environment, the Land Rights Act
that we are governed under in the Northern Territory doesn't
necessarily allow for traditional owners to utilize their land for
the benefit of economic development. There's no home ownership opportunities,
there's no private land ownership opportunities, and we know that
that is what helps people to create wealth, to stand
(55:58):
on their own two feet, to live comfortably, to ensure
that their kids go to school, to create jobs.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
And I want.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
To work toward creating that environment where traditional owners become
job creators, not just have a job, but become job
creators so that they can participate in the economy like
everybody else in this country has the opportunity to. And
that's what we haven't got to yet. And when you've
got mums and dads working, kids are more likely to
(56:26):
go to school, kids are going to get an education.
But our curriculum needs to be such that it is
allowing for kids in communities to be able to leave
school and actually have the appropriate level of education to
either go on to further to go into employment or
go on to further education.
Speaker 1 (56:48):
It's a vicious cycle. If a family has been living
in welfare and it doesn't need to be an Indigenous family.
I've seen families where three generations of white fellows and
they have and have the job. That doesn't create a
good role model or an understanding of what life is about.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
And can I just stay on that as well. And
like in my previous research findings is that the further
you move away from a city, the more marginalized Australians become,
both Indigenous and non Indigenous because there is less of
an access to services. There is less availability of jobs
and those sorts of things to be able to provide
(57:26):
that and that goes for everybody.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
There's a region. Yeah, there's problems within the city, like
living with living within the city as well, But I
agree the services across the board, the more remote, the
more difficult it is to match those services. We'll finish
off on part one. It's hard to find a question.
I can ask you that it's not controversial. I'm looking
(57:51):
for them. But yeah, in the introduction I said that
you've got strong opinions and you're prepared to pair the
back I'll ask one question here, just a general question
that I'm just curious. If you were to speak to
someone from overseas and they asked how Indigenous people are
treated in this country, what would you say, Well.
Speaker 2 (58:09):
I'd say Indigenous people have incredible opportunity in this country.
There are many people in this country who want what's
best for Indigenous Australians. No country, there's no country on
the face of the earth that doesn't have its handful
of you know, those who have racist attitudes across the board.
(58:33):
But yeah, otherwise, I believe that in general terms, most
Australians want what's best for Indigenous Australians. And as I said,
and governments have been bending over backwards to ensure that
there is plenty of opportunity that is being provided for
Indigenous Australians. That's what i'd say.
Speaker 1 (58:55):
Okay, we'll leave, we'll leave it that, let's take a
break and we'll be back in part two and I'm
sure I'll have some more interesting questions for it. Thank you,
Jeers M.
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