Hidden scars of an SAS dog handler: Horse Pt.1

Former SAS operator Horse always dreamed of becoming a soldier. Alongside his dogs, he spent 12 years at the sharp end of the spear fighting in Afghanistan. From witnessing the most horrific parts of humanity and being saved by his dog to the heartbreaking moment of carrying his dog’s coffin, Horse joins Gary Jubelin to discuss bravery, betrayal and the battle after.

 

Want to hear more from I Catch Killers? Visit news.com.au.

Watch episodes of I Catch Killers on our YouTube channel here. 

Like the show? Get more at icatchkillers.com.au
Advertising enquiries: [e-mail] 

Questions for Gary: [e-mail] 

Get in touch with the show by joining our Facebook group, and visiting us on Instagram or Tiktok.

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.

(00:46):
Welcome to another episode of Eye Catch Killers. Today I
sat down with an extraordinary man who has seen and
done things in life most of us could not comprehend,
let alone understand when we talk of us to the country.
Today's guest has my total respect. He served over ten
years as an operator and patrol commander in the Special

(01:08):
Air Services Regiment of the Australian Army. His service in
the SAS Regiment between two thousand and three and twenty
fifteen was spent whilst Australia was at war. He and
his colleagues were a tip of the spear during the conflict.
Anyone involved in fighting a war pays a price in
some way. We talk about what it takes to become

(01:30):
a member of one of the most elite fighting units
in the world, what happens in the war zone, and
the price that is paid. It was an honest and
emotional conversation and it went into areas I didn't expect.
Have a listen. I think it might go a long
way to understanding who these men are and what they
go through serving their country. Today's guest, who goes by

(01:53):
the nickname of Horse, was suggested to me by someone
who said I should talk to him, and I'm glad
I did. Horse. Welcome to I catch killers.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Thank you, good to be here.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, well, I know how busy you are, so thank
you very much for taking the time to come in
here and have a chat.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
I appreciate you making the time and so yeah, we've
had a couple of false starts, and yeah the troubles
and that good good to be here.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
Finally, well, how about I clarify why you called the
horse at first. Now that's your nickname, and that's what
we'll refer you as. But there's a lot of connotations
that come with a nickname called horse, so you might
set the records straight.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
I usually lead in that's a rumor I started, But
now I grew up with horses and it was horse
man and got shortened a horse. Really, so kind of
a little bit boring. Yeah, okay, and it's that simple.
And then I sort of just took it on and
ran with it. Now nobody really knows my real name.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
How long have people been calling your horse for?

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Since I was a kid, right sixteen? Really kind of
morphed into just horse.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah, okay, Well it makes it simple, doesn't it. Now
we've also got two other I was going to say people,
but they're not people, but two other participants in the
podcast today. You've brought your dog, Presston in.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yep, Yeah, he's down here. He made it onto Sky
News the other week and he's doing the same thing now,
sleeping through it all.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, I thought i'd bring my mate Spike in, who's
down there and Pressing and Spike have met. There's been
a little argie bargie, but no blows thrown, so hopefully
it stays that way.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
Nothing too serious is usually well mannered.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
You have Preston as a companion dog, that's correct, Yeah,
what's ago with that? So?

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Well, long story short, I'm certified with PTSD from the
military service, and so my lifestyle, as you alluded to,
is quite busy, and so to have a dog generally
is not really viable. So I got him certified as
an assistance animal, and so he can come everywhere with me.

(04:05):
And say, it just allows me to travel on the
plane with him. I don't have to spend the extra
money put him in freight or you know his business.
Especially we live on a boat now, and so we
can go to national parks and some people say, well,
it seem to be quite well adjusted. I don't really
know me, and I thought maybe I'm taking a piss

(04:28):
here and abusing, But really, when we go out in public,
he sorts out the week from the chaff, so to speak,
and you find out who you want to talk to
pretty quickly, and so who's got manners around animals and
so they're the ones. So I actually start to engage
with people out in public where I normally wouldn't and
so that that's pretty much what he does for me.

(04:49):
It's not the classic traumatized and he is nurturing and
I'm a little buddy. And because it's just me and him,
that's very very important for me. Week life on the
boat sounds like fun, but it would be a lot
less fun without him.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, And I think having something like a dog in
your life it gives a degree of stability. As chaotic
as your life can be, you've got something that remains
the same, some consistency there.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
Yeah, he's anchoring effects. So you've got you've got to
get up, you've got to take him for a walk.
And there's so that that responsibility is important. I think
without responsibility in your life, you just fritter it away.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah. I first saw you a couple of months ago.
There was a film that was invited along too, called
Bravery and Betrayal. It was a documentary about the SAS
and the work that the SAS did in Afghanistan, documentary
that I found fascinating. Yourself and another person that was
featured in the documentary spoke after the film and Simon Heath,

(05:53):
the producer of the film, said, Hey, you want to
check out what these guys are doing in the power
of this documentary. How's that for you? The documentary, Well, we.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
Started off just thought, well, we've got sick of the
narrative and Defense wasn't correcting it. So we thought, well,
we'll get our story out there and booked five private
cinemas like independent cinemas, and then they sold out. We'll
put another screening on and that sold out, and I

(06:23):
think we've done sixty five sold out cinemas on the
first tour, and Simon Heath, the director, and myself are
about to start tour two point zero and say back
by popular demand, it's always good. It's been quite surprising
and often confronting. As I said, just made this film

(06:44):
because we thought, I want to get out side of
the story out there because it's not being presented, and
it's given us a voice, which has been good. And
it's been quite cathartic journey because all the audiences have
been very, very supportive of of us and and surprised,
so they got they come up in tears and we didn't.

(07:05):
We didn't know what you guys went through, what's been
done to you. And then there's the one that really
put on my mask was a tunnel wrap from Vietnam.
He's come up in tears and hugging me, saying thank you.
Nobody's nobody ever did this for us, And so it's
grown to be a lot, a lot more. And the

(07:26):
other thing that's been occurring to me is the family
is the sacrifice of the families, and we we'd lost
over that, and you know, it's one of the single
guys throughout the whole thing. You know, I would, in hindsight,
I would go and hang out with the families and
live vicariously through that, that tight knit unit, those nuclear families,
and and all the bonding that went went with that

(07:46):
through the wives while we were away, and so they
were extremely important. And obviously we've got interviews with a
son who lost his dad, Keegan Locke, his mum Lee
Ta did widow, and we've got the McCarthy's who lost
a son, and so their sacrifice has been really been highlighted,

(08:11):
I think, and hopefully everybody appreciates that, so we do
get some thank you for your service. They're the ones
that really sacrifice in the family. So there's a lot
of things come home. Being driven home to me made
me sit up and have a bit of a look
at the wider space instead of just what I was
doing downrange and getting after it.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
Well, I've got to say it was powerful and it
doesn't surprise me. You say, people in tears after the
documentary was shown the aim of the documentary, and I
think it really hit the mark. But just when the
documentary was made, this was the aim and I just
read this out over in Betrayal highlights the courage of
Australia and sas soldiers in Afghanistan while exposing what they

(08:55):
perceive as a betrayal by politicians, media and senior defense
leaders after their service. The film aims to set the
records straight, honor the soldier's sacrifice, and advocate for better
treatment of veterans. I think if you watch that movie,
you're going to go, okay, well that's a fair call.
And the narrative that you talk about is this, and

(09:16):
it's been hanging around for a long time and probably
too long, the allegations of war crimes that seem to
have put a stain on all the work that you
guys did, and bearing in mind they are any allegations
at this stage, did you notice a shift, the change
from the perception of the public when these allegations came out.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
So I've been living overseas for a little bit, so
I didn't see a shift in the public when I
have been back in Australia. Really the highlight is Ben
Roberts Smith. So whenever that comes up and I have
interactions with the public and they find out where my background,
they're very supportive. Most of the public and this is

(09:56):
what we found out with the film as well as
general public are supporting us, and so this narrative is
just from a very small part of the media and
some of the public who they're ideologically predisposed to be
against war of warfare, and so generally I hadn't noticed it,

(10:18):
but I've felt it because I've seen it and obviously
it's close to me. So you do pick up on
these things from the media, and so I think it
is felt throughout our community. And I've noticed what it's
done the guys and the allegations and some of the
subpoenas and obviously gag or put on people when they're

(10:40):
involved with ongoing investigations, and it's just diminished them and
they're sort of sitting there with this sort of damicles
over their head. Just waiting in chronic stress just grinds
guys down. You've got Tier one operators who are significantly
diminished and just shells of their former And I went

(11:02):
through some issues as well myself. Well, seeing seeing what
it does to your mates really is one of the
biggest issues.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
I think if you've been at the sharp end of
the sphere like you guys were in the war that was.
I think it's the longest running conflict Australia has been
involved in a war zone. So there's enough damage that's done.
You don't go the war coming back the same person
that there's damage done. And something that really hit home
to me that you mentioned, and I can relate to

(11:32):
it in part where you said, where these allegations have
been made people that had served overseas, mates that they
relied upon aren't allowed to talk to each other because
of subpoenas and different things and restrictions. That must add
exponentially the pressure of not only dealing with coming back
from war, but then dealing with the allegations.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
Yeah, well, I mean it's a classic interrogation isolation tactic
where you put pressure on people and we know what
isolation does two people and you've been involved with the
Royal Commission into Veteran Suicide and that isolation is a
massive impact upon mental health and increase his chance of

(12:15):
suicidality for a start. So the authorities know this and
they still go and do it to us and isolate
We can talk and tay Olie Schultz because his name
has been out in the public and he's the only
one that's ever been charged, yes, and so yeah, he's
been isolated from all of the guys, really.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
And that adds to adds so much pressure. And if
I reference police matters, I always think what you guys
have been through is policing, and what you guys have
been through is on steroids compared to that. But when
I felt foul of the police and allegations were made,
I was isolated from the police. I wasn't allowed to

(12:57):
talk to any police officer, and anyone that did talk
to me was criticized. Some were transferred out of units
because they were associated with me. And that isolation does
add to the pressure of it. And you're in this
world of going, what the fuck's what's going on?

Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, And there's only so long you can put up
with that, Yeah, yeah, Yeah, And as you found out firsthand. Yeah,
well yeah, they did play those tactics right back on
their own people's Yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
It is crazy. And also when there's allegations that are
made that I know with the Police Royal Commission in
the police corruption there were things that were uncovered, and yeah,
things that needed to be addressed. But I remember a
deputy commissioner coming out and saying that after that Royal Commission,
I was a detective and I didn't get caught up

(13:50):
in the Royal Commission, and I was proud of the
work I did, and I was proud of the work
that people I was working with the way they conducted themselves.
And then you had a deputy commission to come out
and say all the techniques are a disgrace and they
should be sent back to uniform. That pissed me off,
and that pissed me off for about twenty years. I
made the point of really pushing the detective barrow and
how dare you say that of all detectives?

Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeh, it becomes personal. And I think interestingly the CDF
Campbell came out and apologized to Afghanistan, for the Afghan people,
for all of the injustice or improprieties. I can't remember
the exact words, but he apologize for any war crimes
that we committed when there's been nothing proven. It's just

(14:33):
all allegations are blank and as you alluded to, a
blanket cast of allegations or guilt, and so all of
a sudden, you're all guilty, presumed guilty until proven innocence,
whereas the opposite of what it's supposed to be. And
so you guys haven't got due process. Yeah, and neither

(14:59):
have we. And it seems to be something with government
hierarchies that I'm willing to throw their people under the
bus for some sort of personal gain. And I don't
know what the motivations are, and I don't understand it either.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
I want to talk about you and your extraordinary career
and the things that things that you've done, and I
think it's pretty amazing. So just let me roat some
of this stuff out. You join the Army in nineteen
ninety three. You're in the SAS from two thousand and
three to twenty fifteen. You've provided training and consultation for
military law enforcement and African wildlife consultation. Soon you operate

(15:39):
domestically and in conjunction with Australian Federal Police and State Police.
You've worked in Southeast Asia and the Middle East. You
delivered training for K nine units to La County Sheriff's Department,
swat LAPD, Swedish Police, Danish Police, European Special Forces and
Wildlife Ranger units throughout Africa. That's why I bought Spiking.
I want to see if we can get him a job.

(15:59):
He's been free lading for too long. Assisted teaching in
Sweden to autistic spectrum diagnosed children. You even worked as
a movie animal trainer, ensuring dogs were trained for their
various roles. That's a job for Spike. Your academic qualifications
include Master of Business Administration Advanced to Planner in Public
Safety Emergency Management, the Plomer and Work Health and Safety,

(16:22):
the Planer of Business Certificate for and Training and Assessment
rya Professional day skipper license, and of course you've got
your private pilot's license. You can fly a plane as well. Mate.
That is a lot to do, and I wanted to
put that out because I want people to understand who
you are and when we're talking. But that's a hell

(16:44):
of a lot of things to have done.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
That's my adhd I think right, which I do have
it clearly, yeah, and slightly on the spectrum. But these
things are actual superpowers, and we put it out there
in society that these things are terrible to have. But
if you allow these people to find find what interests
them and go for it, then I guess that's what happens.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
Channel, channel and direction.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, and I think you can probably relate to a
lot of that with your people. Call you obsessed with
your job, and then that extra links that you'll go to,
And that's that's so where it ends up.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
It quite often separates, it, doesn't it. And when you've
got a passion for something, passion with perspective, but the
passion for something and you enjoy it and you've got
an inquiring mind, that does push it that little bit further,
doesn't it.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah. And it's not like I set out to do
any of that. It just it just happened. And so
allow people to do what what interests them and go
with it, maybe enable them and guide them, and obviously
you'll follow follow your moral compass and and here we.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
Are, Well, that's it's interesting too, And maybe it's the
way you positive outlook on things like adhd. I hear
so many people use that as an excuse and you're saying, well, yeah,
it's my superpower. It points me in the direction that
drives me. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Absolutely, there was issues growing up back in the seventies ages.
Nobody really knew what this was. And so you're just
that kid that's always hanging off the chandeliers.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
The little shit that's causing problems.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah, and that's pretty much what I became and identified
as for years. And so you know we're here about
coppers and crims not too similar. And I think it
could have gone eat a way for me. And I
think if I was growing up today with cameras on phones,
I don't know if i'd have been even allowed to

(18:41):
join the defense force and say that would have pushed
me in not so wholesome direction. And so because I
grew up always wanted to be a soldier and you're
playing with guns, getting that stick out and that's a
good stick, and so I always wanted to join the military.

(19:02):
You know, without that, I dare say it would have
gone the other way. I did end up bouncing for
a little while in Melbourne and rubbing shoulders with criminal.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
Elements to drag you in the world.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
And yeah, well I did get in a spot of
botic side and made he got locked up in perse
once I joined the regiment, and friend said, oh, someone
so he's in jail ere and go and visit him.
So I linked up with a mate of his who's
in the Outlaw Motorcycle Gang and went and visited him.
And I think when Benji Venaman got knocked, they was

(19:36):
looking to do his background and he was visiting this guy,
and so who else is visiting him? And there's an
essays operator with Outlaw Motorcycle Gang guys. I got called
into headquarters and what's going on here? Maybe I'm going
to get a medal. I walked in there and I
saw their faces. I thought, I got a medal today,

(19:56):
And yeah, I was sitting there with a cloud over
my head for a year while I had investstigation went on. Fortunately, Yeah,
and I did bring that on myself to associating with damage.
So there's always that tendency there, and yeah, it could
have gone either way. And even when I was in
the regiments, I see still but I just decided, well,

(20:17):
this is what I want to go. So I cut
all those ties.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Your childhood where did you Where did you grow.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Up central Victoria? Yep, in the twenty acre farm about
an hour north of Melbourne. So it's a geographical center
of Victoria. Riding horses and playing with a dog, and
so because of that, adhd a little bit of spectrum stuff.
I was just always in trouble, so I would gravitate
out onto the outside and hang out with dogs and horses,

(20:47):
and so that's where I'm affinity for animals and that
connection came from. And lo and behold thirty years later
on heading up the dog capability at the regiment. So
that that was really the serendill An interesting early days
and carried all all the way through and the military space.

(21:09):
The grandfather Blue Reata, they wrote a book about him.
He's got the Military Cross and a military medal from
World War Two. So bit of a legend there, and
he was quite a mentor to me. So that was
your grandfather grandfather mom's side. Okay, he always said all
of their firstborn were a little bit crazy, and so

(21:29):
that was he's telling me about my mum when I
was ten, and so I think it's been passed on
through his genes. When you came back from the war,
got passed on, but I think you felt a little
bit responsible for that, so did you.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
I'm just wondering the dynamics with your mum growing up
with a dad that was a fighting soldier, did she
have concerns about you following down that path.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, Mom and dad did because.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
They were assumed the impact it had on your grandfather.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
I would the magine, Well, I don't know if they
people understood that. When you're growing up with it, you
just say, God, that's that's dad, and you know, but
then they've been brought up by people who have been
through World War Two, so you know there's got to
be an impact there and whether they recognized it or not.
But then I think the big factor was Vietnam. You
know what they saw going on in Vietnam because it

(22:20):
was their generation.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
Now.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
Dad had hemophilia, so blood clotting problem, so he got
called up. I said, no, you can't, can't come. That's
going to be an issue down range. So he never went.
But they saw what friends didud to friends and what
went on during the Vietnam War and how they were
treated when they came back too, and so you know

(22:42):
you don't want that for your kid. All I ever
wanted to do was join the military, and they tried
to steer me into university, and I was just a
disruptive influence in class, although I didn't enjoy school at all,
and and even I went back to UNI a couple
of years ago on a military scholarship, and I was
still a disruptive influence. Nothing's changed.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
How old were you when you joined the army?

Speaker 2 (23:09):
Twenty one? Okay, So I got put off a little
bit by their steering me into UNI, But in hindsight,
it was just always going to happen.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
And basic training, once you're in there, did it fit
like a glob for you? You felt this is where
I belong.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, recruit training, they get you in there and strip
you of all yourself and break you down and build
you up. I was a little bit resistant to that.
So the first few weeks, first eight weeks in a
spot of bother here and there and not getting good reports.
But by the end I'd attain the standard they wanted

(23:45):
and went on and then we went to infantry training
and that's it. Thoroughly enjoyed that.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah. My son did the gap year in the army,
so just after he left school and the gap year
is sign up for twelve months, can't it deployed overseas,
But the Army's got them for twelve months, and I
think the trade off is the guys and girls signing
up for that get a good wage and enjoy the

(24:11):
army life. Then they leave or the army thinks will
convert them if we keep them there long enough. But
I remember the change of my son going down to
I put it down to the best twelve months parenting
I ever did, because I saw the change in him.
He went down there and he went to UNI after
that year. But if he went to UNI at that

(24:31):
stage he wore a stuffed up like I don't think
he was ready for it. He went to the Army,
as you said, break him down, come out, and he
went from Kapuka then the infantry came out a completely
different person.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, it changes you look, it does, and it built
me up to achieve anyone of my looks or intellect
should not expect to be able to achieve. Yeah, it's great.
And I got friends here in Europe who Sweden, they

(25:03):
used to have the National service and we didn't like
doing it at first, but then two years they came
out and they said, in hindsight, it's the best thing
they ever did that set them up for life and
gave him those structure and discipline and values that the
military does. Shove down your throat the hierarchy. Don't emulate

(25:24):
that always. What that gives you is just amazing, I think,
and I fully support anybody going into the military, even
if you just do your four years, it gives you
life skills.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
Well in this day and age, and you know, lots
of people have lost their way for a variety of reasons.
And I just saw the impact it had on the
some and I thought it was the best thing for him.
And he's kept that discipline all the way through. And yeah,
change the person. He isn't a different outlook.

Speaker 2 (25:54):
On life to good on him. That's pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
Okay, so you've done, you went in, you.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Go to a recruiting for defense.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yeah, well when I went, when I went down there,
and I was enjoyed. Actually it was funny because one
of the my son had trained with the father. It
was a father and son team that basically came in
and he said that would you And I've always wanted
to join the army. Maybe it was too late, but
Jake was went through basic training with the father, then

(26:24):
serve with the son or something something something weird, but
yeah with it it changed. But after you've done your
basic training, you you went to infantry. What where were
you attached to it?

Speaker 2 (26:37):
I wanted to go to Parachute Britain, so it's three
rur back in the time day, just down down in Holsworth.
So I spent a couple of years there and then
dadok crooked. So I went down to Melbourne to to
Commando Company second Commander and came off a motorbike there
and broke the pelvis. So I thought that that hurts, Yeah,

(26:59):
because I wanted to go to the ESA. Yes and yeah,
then broken pelvis. They said, well you're not going to
run ever again, You'll be lucky to walk, so well
we proved them wrong. Yeah, so that put things back
a little bit. And then Team More came up and
I was starting to get fit again, and so I
went off with two Commando Team More in two thousand

(27:23):
and one. Then came back from that and I was
also wrestling and I tried out for the Australian team.
Conwell's yeah, look I didn't make team was probably just
as well. Because the standard of wrestling in Australia's a
bit lower than overseas.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
If all the ones with just the beards and the mustache,
yeah yeah, the scary ones.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, Eastern Bloc guys.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, yeah, you don't want to wrestle.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
No, So I was fortunate make the team and then
that was two thousand and two. Then I did selection
do three.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
Okay, your deployment in Team More, that was the first
time we've been deployed in en mass like that the
military in Team More. Tell us about that experience from
I should clarify from Vietnam, it's been a bit of
a quiet time.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
I think we had a wander in there as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
that was an interesting one, and so I think we
were still doing Vietnam joels and it was just a
different war. So learning where you can and can't go
on what to do was interesting and it was largely
a peacekeeping There were a few contacts here and there.

(28:38):
It was kind of settled down by two thousand and one.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
You've been in the army since ninety three, training, practicing,
getting ready that deployment was that something you look forward to, Yeah,
actually put in in the practice. What you've been training for.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Absolutely, and so even though what's happened to us from Afghanistan,
I'm glad and I feel myself consider myself lest that
I got the opportunity to go down range on operations
serve the country. But you get to scratch that itch
to I can't imagine what it would have been like
for the guys carrying that tort through the late seventies

(29:17):
into the eighties that never got to go anywhere.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah, and when people say that it's misconstrued that you're
warmonger you want to go the war, I don't look
at it that way. Perhaps you could shed some light
on it. But you're trained for something. This is the
role that you've signed up for, and when you get
it's like, on a lesser scale being a football player
and not getting to play a game, training, training, and

(29:40):
never get out on the field. So I can understand
the desire to actually put all your training into practice.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah, I believe you join up to go and serve
the country and do these things. And it's a little
bit of a boy's own adventure too, So young men
going and testing themselves in DNA, and so it's not
like you're a warmonger. In fact, you went over there
to do good, to protect people while serving the country.

(30:10):
So it's kind of an honorable cause you're going over
there to do the thinking. People say, oh, how many
people would you kill the billet? Yeah, okay, there is
a number, but I think it's more important. There's a
large number also the people that I could have killed
and justified but didn't. And so we're there to rise

(30:33):
above the chaos and the psychopaths that are out there.
Because once again people say, oh, you're getting accused of
war crimes. It's war you go over there and do anything.
Well that that's not true. You know, we're over there
and taking a higher moral ground. You know, as you
would have experienced with the coppers. You're out there to
do a job and provide a bit of stability because

(30:57):
some of the people you're dealing with, you you would
spit on them and you want to put a bullet
in the head, but you don't. And there would have
been times, no doubt for you and so for me,
that you could have done it and got away with it.
That's that's not what we're there for, because then you
know it's Nietzsche's abyss. You know, or those that deal
with monsters be where are becoming a monster? And so

(31:18):
that's that's what my answer is to that one.

Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I can relate
that I did some jobs in policing and it was
about the restraint that you showed. And quite often I
have people, you know, you locked up this person, what
did you do? Did you bash them or whatever? That's
not what it's about, like you're lowered to their standard.
If you drop down to their.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
Stands, Yeah, you become part of the problem.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
And then and then this is where we end up
with royal commissions. Yeah, yeah, because that stuff it always
comes out.

Speaker 1 (31:53):
You mentioned moral compass, and I've always said that because
I was in organized crime major crime investigation before the
Royal Commission, so as in the thick of it where
things were going, and the moral compass is so important
to hang on to your moral compass, and it can
slide you don't keep it, keep it in check. So
that's an important thing to hang on to, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yeah, And it is difficult, absolutely, And so when you
look at what the government asked of us, you're going
back to the same area doing the same job. You're
coming back and the purpose you've locked up, the terrorists
we locked up have been released. You're taking some losses
and going and doing a job we believe we did

(32:37):
a really good job, and not having much of an
outcome or effect. Essentially what the conditions the government putting
us through or we were going under. Maybe not the government,
they were asking defense for an outcome. So military hierarchy,
and there's Burnsy in the movie in the documentary said
we won every battle, and so we gave the hierarchy

(33:00):
every chance is to succeed. But here we are. So
essentially those conditions are very very similar to what the
hunter kill missions in Vietnam were. And you've got these
soldiers going through taking hits, going over the same area,
doing the same job, not having an enduring effect while

(33:23):
taking losses, and so you end up with the Malee massacre. Now,
I don't know if everyone's form me with.

Speaker 1 (33:28):
That familiar with the US troops and the village inn.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
And so you're taking those hits and then all of
a sudden, a good idea, the psychopath in the troop
I says, let's do the village. And this is where
good leadership comes in and no, we're not going to
do the village. And so I think the conditions we
were put under and the fact that we didn't do
that is testament, which then when you come back and

(33:54):
get accused of doing that, is it hurts.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yeah, it does. We'll talk in more detail later on
in the podcast about the leadership and their reaction. But leadership,
I don't know. I think leadership is lacking in so
many different areas. And I can relate with police. Hard job.
If it go out and do it, do all the

(34:18):
hard work. If it's a success, you have all these
people standing beside you. If there's a hint of problems,
everyone distanced themselves and I got sick of that. I
saw it in the police and again i'd reference at
a lesser scale than what you guys were facing. And
the other thing in the service in Afghanistan. In the
few people who I've met that were in the SAS,

(34:40):
I was surprised by the amount of deployments. And it
was only having a one on one conversation where it
really dawned on me how often new blokes were put
down range. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:51):
Look, I've only just been able to admit in the
last couple of years that maybe I did go a
few too many times. So a in case where in
two thousand and seven we were hunting Ronaldo and Team
Or after he killed all those coppers and the soldiers,
and so I went with one squadron to Team Or.

(35:14):
That was January through to April and came back from there.
I was up with a dog as a dog Hewler,
and then I was seconded to three squadron and we
went three weeks later we went off to Afghanistan a decompressor. No, well,
I was very happy to do that at the time too,
so you know, I think maybe the high rocky, we

(35:35):
need to protect us from ourselves sometimes. And then two
squadron came over to Afghanistan to replace three squadron, but
they didn't have a dog Hawnler, so I stayed on.
So I think I was in Australia for maybe four
weeks that year, but I deployed bit all three squadrons,
so I'm pretty proud of that too. And then from
there I just kept rotating in twenty seven, eight eleven, nine,

(35:59):
eleven twelve.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yeah, we talked about that the other day, and I
use the analogy and I think it's apped for it.
Then that you're a soldier. If there's something happening, you'll
put your hand up for it. That's the in the
nature of the makeup of you. Someone above you needs
to look and go hold it. We do need this
bloat to rest, We do need this bloat to just
step back, clear his head before we deploy him again.

(36:22):
But you're not never going to do that. That's that's
the people above. And I think we use the analogy
of a trainer in the fighter's corner. Do you want
to still go out? The fighter is always going to
say yes, it's up for the trainer. They say, nay,
you've had nothing to throw the.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Towel in for him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, and
the fighter will get angry. And if they'd have told
me that back in the day, I would have been
pissed off too. Yeah, only toys out of the COT
I understand.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Okay, let's let's wind it back a little bit. The
selection course for the sas what. Yeah, it's notoriously hard.
The success rate miniscule compared to the amount of people
that try out. And I should point out the people
that try out for the selection course rate themselves to
start with, It's not just Joe average. It's people that
have been or should be training for it, pre pairing

(37:13):
for it, and think they've got the attributes for it.
What was it about you that thought I can do this?

Speaker 2 (37:19):
I don't know, It's just it was something that I'd
always wanted to do from a little kid. So now
I've spoken about my grandfather earlier. You know, he was
commissioned in Egypt or some Middle East and came back
to Australia and was sent off with the militia the

(37:40):
reserves to Boganville where he wanted to join the Independent
Company so Special Forces and some of his mates did,
but they said no, we need experienced officers. And so
that was always something that was interesting me. So you
want to serve at the highest level that you can,
and the ESAs was always it. So I grew up
says magazines and books and military history, so it was

(38:03):
always a goal. And so it was that was really
my why, and so it was never like I'm a
bit worried about this or I'm not going to do it.
So it never really entered my mind. And this is
where I'd say to people, I want to do selections
and go, well, what's your why it's And it's a
really interesting question. Well why it's a job. You can

(38:25):
do any job for money, you really need to have
it deep, deep, trenched entrenched in you. And so I
went over there and said I'm here, I'm going to
do this and going to and they take me or
they don't. And I've done everything that I can beforehand
to prep before it. And if in fact, you get
this withdraw own request form and they give that to you,

(38:49):
and I chucked it out. I'm here for three weeks.
Whatever you need to do, you want me to do,
and if you want to get rid of me, yeah,
so be.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
It as a statement of it, then your back pocket,
get rid of it.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
The mindset, I think I can't remember. Was it burnt
all these ships?

Speaker 1 (39:08):
Oh yeah yeah, ancient history.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
Ancient history burned all the ships. So it gets the
soldiers to fight.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
We've got nowhere to go now. Yeah, it's a good mentality.
The perception is it's very physical, which it is, and
you have to have mental toughness, but there's a lot
more that goes into it. There's a psychological component. I
would imagine that going through that three week selection course.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah, so look, I think anybody can finish selection. Where
do you get picked up or not is a different
kettle of fish. And soy a lot of the guys
computer skills trainability. So you know, you get a whole
lot of lessons in the first few days that you're
there without much sleep. Then you're expected to recall those

(39:51):
skills at different points throughout the course and replicate, like
display those skills and you know you've just had a
forty minute lesson on something, then replicate it over and
over again with no sleep and food. And I remember
setting up a Pulley system that we'd been taught early
earlier in the course, and this is later in the course.

(40:15):
We've had no sleep for a few days and no food,
set it up, pulling a vehicle along, and then you've
got to reset and reset it again, and then went
to do it the third time and I've forgotten how
to do it. So the sleep deprivation and every it
just has that effect on it. So being able to
replicate those skills to a certain extent is really important

(40:37):
and tough too, because you know what what lack of
sleep does to.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
You, just well under that, under that pressure and lack
of sleep. It strips you down to its roorus, isn't it.
And that's where the character of a person would come out,
and the skill set and everything that you need.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yeah, and that's that's where you're truly exposed. And you
have people that really just wanted to do it because
they thought that it was a good idea or make
somebody else proud, but it's not really something they wanted
to do. And then they start going, oh, look, I
don't want to do this anymore my family. You didn't
think about that before, but these sort of things start
to come up. And then once you get exposed, where

(41:15):
do you recognize it yourself that you don't belong there?
The staff recognized for you belong there or not pretty quickly.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
And you've made an interesting point. But I see where
you're coming from in that what do you want to
do it?

Speaker 2 (41:27):
Now?

Speaker 1 (41:27):
I imagine how cool I'm in the SAS that people would
be driven by that, what do you want to do
or want to be in the sas? But without really
thinking about it, but your mentality if I'm understanding that
here is you were going to be in the SAS.
This is what I've always wanted to do and failure
was not an option for you.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
No, No, I had done a clearance diver selection and pasted.
Previously I had to transfer into the Navy, but that's
because so Command had lost my application for SAS and gone,
stuff is I'm going to go and do this? And
then they found it and said, oh, you're on pre
selection in a few weeks, and then selections a couple
weeks after that. Right, be Fortunately I was pretty fit.

Speaker 1 (42:07):
Okay, you got through selection, but that's not the end
of you can't rest on your laurels. Then a lot
of the training starts at that point.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
No, so then you've got an eighteen months hotline to
go through.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Quite I've been told to ignore you. I'm going to
put it in practice. He breaks me down.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
Okay, oh yeah, that's a superpower. Where was I?

Speaker 1 (42:31):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (42:31):
So the selection course and then then it's about an
eighteen month pipeline two before you get into the squadron.
And so you've got all these different skill sets. So
some are physical and then you've got mental ones. So
I did medical, other guys to comp coms and driving, shooting, patrolling,

(42:53):
counter terrorist studio, urban ops, yeah, CQB. And so at
any point you can fail one of those and you
might get invited back the next year, but it sort
of sets you back till the next year, so it's constant.
And so maintaining that focus and that the fitness without

(43:14):
getting injured, and then assimilating those lessons and presenting the
instructors with those skill sets to the required standard is
it was the best couple of years of your life too,
because you've got that one group of guys that you're
always with and so it's quite a bonding experience. And
so these friendships are forged under under under pressure.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
When you went for selection and got in the sas too,
we were at war, so it was fairly clear where
you would be going and where you would be deployed.
That wasn't a case of okay, I'm going to practice
and train and train, You're going to be deployed. Did
that cross your mind? And you weighed all that.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
Up, couldn't wait, couldn't wait to get there? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Now maybe that's not such a smart thing, but I
wish for I do understand, yeah, and so yeah, you
just want to get out there and put that I've
done the training and I want to get after it.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
So how many times were you deployed in Afghanistan?

Speaker 2 (44:18):
Six or seven?

Speaker 1 (44:19):
With the essays, Yeah, and towards the latter part, you're
as a commander patrol commanders.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
Too, I see. And then then kind of after I
got promoted after our last rotation to patrol commander set right, Unfortunately,
then I had surgery and I got two new hips, right,
and that kind.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
Of you've moved around all right for two new hips.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
Yeah, well they're the best joints in my body.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
Upgraded, yep, graded, Okay, your first deployment, and I look,
we're talking light about this, but I think something that
came across in the documentary Bravery and Betrayal was the
work that you're doing, Like it wasn't you weren't going
over there and something might happen. You were going look
looking for something to happen. That was the nature of
your duties over there.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, I mean we were hunting people essentially, So you
don't go out there to avoid trouble, I guess. And
at the start, you go outside the gate and you
get into a gunfight, and then you have to go
further to get a gunfight. So we were having a
stabilizing effect which then enabled the regular forces to come

(45:25):
in and start doing that mentoring and reconstructing. At the
early days, we were doing a lot of reconnaissance with
the vehicles and driving all around all over the countryside
getting some situational awareness. And then as the bubble expanded
of stability I guess you call it around Taran count,

(45:48):
that sort of evolved into the kill capture missions where
we were targeting hierarchy, and the American helicopters really really
helped us with that. When we didn't have them. We
drive out and you know, park up and then walk
to ten kilometers to the target, so we're sort of

(46:08):
offset and then walk in.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
So and that was again played out in the documentary.
But initially you had vehicles that you had to get
to your locations, and then you got the American helicopters
dropping you in closer.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
And so, as I said before, I was lucky that
I was there for so many rotations early days because
I got the CD the spike in in the IED.
So they're changing tactics body enemy. They went from well
we're getting our asses kicked in gunfights, so let's start
laying IEDs. And so I was riding around on a
six yel motorbike with a dog box on the back.

(46:44):
So I was very cognizant of that that rise in
the threat, and so I found I rode around the
IEDs instead of over them. Basically your homemade explosive. So
they get ammonium nitrate and some fuel oil and then
they'll make up that goes high order explodes. They'll have
an initiating charge within that, and so that'll be buried

(47:06):
under the ground with a pressure plate that as you
drive over it, it'll make the contact with the batteries
and set the charge off. But I was in nine
vehicle packets that had to hit i EDS. I got
to see where they were put and start to understand it.
And that's played out the next year when I was

(47:26):
in the vehicle in front of Sean McCarthy. But I
drove around that spot right. Unfortunately they didn't see where
we went and then hit that I ed it.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
It is the nature of war where there would be
a psychological impact with the EDS. I would imagine every
Yeah you're driving and a gun battle, you see it coming,
you know, but there's never downtime. Yeah, you're always at
that hyper alert.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
Yeah, every bump you hit or you don't quite have
the clearance and your scrape over something and everyone just
and then you laugh at each other and continue on.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
Yeah, I reckon the question, and I'm asking this, and
I think a lot of people would ask the same.
Your first contact when you're downrange and bullets are coming
back at you, and that did you know how you're
going to react? Or do you wonder how you get react?
Because I hear a lot of people talk about I
wonder how I'll react in that situation.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
Yes, I was quite overwhelming. Yeah, you don't kind of
think about that, and then it happens. I guess you
do wonder about it. Yeah, you're scared, but it's what
you do when you're scared, and so that that training
sort of kicks in and then you get it after it.
And so this is where in the teams it's not

(48:44):
about you, it's about the guys to the left and
the right of and so you get over that initial
fear for yourself and then you step up and do
it for the guys around you, which then when you
get out of the military, that does become a bit
of a problem because you're not doing those things.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
I would imagine to that your first gun battle, there's
a lot of adrenaline running. Yeah, next one not that
as much, and you get conditioned to it, desensitized to it.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
Yeah, I think. I think, so you learned to zig
and zag when you're supposed to as opposed to Yeah,
the first one, what the hell's going on here? And
you too, audles, Yeah, sitting where's that coming from?

Speaker 1 (49:25):
All?

Speaker 2 (49:25):
What's going on? And then you know, fast forward to
twenty twelve where I remember I was in a close
contact with the guy and he had to be dead
the rights except I did the old neo from the
matrix and just jump back to and the bullets just
went stray through. But I remember everything just slowed down

(49:46):
and I was kind of ended this flow state, and
so that that was where you end up being in
contact as opposed to in the first one, it's just
headless chuck.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
Yeah. Can we talk deployments? How long? If it's not
giving away any classified stuff, but how long would you
be deployed?

Speaker 2 (50:06):
It's deployment, Yeah, four four to six months. Obviously there's
back to back once in two thousand and seven for me,
so a bit longer. Yeah, So about four four months
mark you start to get a little bit weary, right,
So that was perfect. But then you've got Americans going

(50:27):
away for twelve months, and you've got Ambertaians are out
there for six six months, and so it's you get
to that four months mark. And I remember even we
did the six months in team or after four months,
you start to get a little bit jaded and vary
and so losing that edge and.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
When mistakes are made. Get to that point and in
that deployment the average deployment and I know the nature
of the war changed over the years, but you were
out and about. That wasn't sitting around for four months.
And you get one outside the gates. You're going out
all the.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
Time, no, yeah, constantly hunting. Yeah, And so as you
come back de service reservice and then start getting ready
for the next job. And even the kill capture ones
where time sensitive where we'd find out where they were
and wheels up and off you go. You come back
and then we rebomb and get ready for the next

(51:22):
job where it was that afternoon the next day wherever
we'll find a target.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
Okay, so you're out and about and that's I think
that's why I would encourage people to have a look
at this film, because I think there's a misconception of
what happens over there and they see going to wall.
But you guys were at it the whole.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
Time, even early days two thousand and seven, I was
actually kicked off to the Commandos because OC said I
don't have any use for dogs, and I went to
the Commandos, which that company that was there at the
time was my old peer group from when I went
to Team or with them, and so they were all
now next level up. And so a big shout out

(52:03):
to those guys for taking me on and helping develop
the capabilit Because that was still early days, and because
I was the only dog handler. We were out in
the desert for a few weeks maneuvering around, and each
each night we would do a hit and so and
then sometimes it'd be one during the day. So one

(52:24):
platoon would go out down and do the job while
the other stayed in overwatch. But I would flip flop
between platoons and so me, my dog did done I
think sixteen hits in fourteen days.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
Yeah, really after that.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
Yeah, it has to has to take it. Stop with
the dogs. Tell me how they're used in that type
of environment.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
So in the early age, we didn't really know what
we were doing because we went and did an Air
Force dog handler course and so came back, how do
we use it in special Forces? And so played around
with it. Eventually, as the capability matured, we would use
them out in front of the teams as an early

(53:08):
warning when we're moving through a complex terrain.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
So to give an example of people that don't understand,
you're out with how many in the unit and just
roughly of us and you've got the dog out front.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
Yeah, so in vegetation, so we can't see through it,
but their senses can hear and smell, detect, detect the
enemy or any explosives that may be out there. So
they'll give a change in behavior on that.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
And when you're working with the dog, you pick up
on that change of behavior. It might be the years
prick up or whatever.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Yes, they'll give a definite change in behavior. I'll duck
off casing something. And actually guys, other guys, as we
got used to working with the teams, they would be
able to go, I think her dog's onto something here.
So everybody started to really get into that space with
the animals as we got more for me and started

(54:09):
to know what we were doing too, and that that
early warning out front saved my life, saved many other lives,
like I couldn't tell you how many, And the amount
of explosives they found or munitions out on the Battle
of Space, not necessarily IED's were after that was more
the explosive detection dogs because it's only limited number hours

(54:29):
the training can do in one day, and so just
having dual purpose dogs was quite quite a lot of training.
So we would find weapons cases around the place.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
And how the dogs when the bullets start flying and
the chaos of a gun battle.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Yeah, they're quite excitable. They didn't worry about and so
my boy, he would get very excited. He wanted to
get after it. So sometimes we'd be punching on in
the middle of a gunfight. I'm dealing with the dog
and trying to return fire. It's like, now, okay, yeah
I'm not the only one. So yeah, people would be
looking at the dog hand of fighting with these dogs,

(55:07):
what the hell are you do it? Yeah, they didn't
have a problem, and they actually raised up in tempo
because I guess they could feel our state. It was
elevated as well, and so they feed off that he did.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
What about the searching premises or whatever, you send the
dogs in there in that environment as well.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
Yeah, only if we were going in obviously, if we
found an empty compound, we had the dogs could find explosives.
So there's an empty compound, there's nobody in there in
a suspect area, Well, potentially that's got IEDs and stuff
like that in there. So we might lower the dogs
over the wall and send them around with the camera
and they you know, we did find some explosives in

(55:54):
some places, and then we pull the dog back out
and tull the EOD Explosive Ordinance Protection guys or disposal
guys to there's something in that compound there. It's secure,
there's no enemy in there. So yours boys, we're going
to be standing back one hundred meters. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that's the other thing. Whenever I had a change

(56:14):
in behavior and a dog, I would recall.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
Him and you would have one dog. You were the
dog's handler, so that the dog didn't share handlers. You
and the dog were the unit.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
That's it. Yeah, And when you got promoted, potentially your
dog would would be passed on to somebody else if
he's still operating. And then when it came to retirement
age for the dog, the primary handler would have have
first DIBs. But if your home life or whatever it
wasn't able to accommodate a dog, and then it would
go to the second handler. Somebody would always pick those

(56:47):
those dogs up and take them home if they were
if we deemed them suitable. We had one one dog, Rex.
He's a little bit too loose and I've got a
big still got a big scar. Yeah, he won the
first round, but I got over the top. I've got
a probably what you call a standing eight count, but
came back for the second round. I got him. But

(57:09):
actually we had a really good relationship after that. But yeah,
he was just too loose for us to deem him
suitable for retirement. He's actually been stuffed and he's in
the museum at Sash right.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
Well, there's a bond with the dogs, isn't there. And
I know with their casual it hits home very hard.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
Yeah, that was like I've carried a couple of coffins
and of your mates remained staunch for carrying the coffins
of the dogs. It just just broke me. Yeah, feeling
your voice now. Yeah, so they excuse me.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
Yeah, no, understood, Yeah, it's just yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
We're responsible for them. They they and I do bang
on about this, use this word. It's unconditional. They've just
been chosen. They are awesome, and so they're there for us.
You know that That part of the movie gets me
just about every time.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
I think for all of us, it was I'm glad
it was. It was dark. There was a lot of
tears when the dog was lost. But I suppose they
put total trust in you. That's that's the thing. You're
You're they're looking after him and they're looking after you.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
That's it. They're dished out there hunting. It's no different
training or operations. So going back to the gunfire, it
doesn't matter to them.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
How did they go when they were back away from conflicts?
Just when did they decompress? How did they decompress? And
did they change personalities from the war dog to the
just the chilled out dog.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
So yeah, and so that's where the clear signals and
consistence he comes in from us. I don't know if
you've seen the movie Dog Who Changed They really captured
it very well. And so you know that that dog's
handler went and knocked himself. So then the dogs without
that bond, without the stability our dogs, you know, we'd
come back and my old boy Risha, who the kennel

(59:04):
Bank at Swanbourne is named after. Now, when I first
got he, I remember, he's just eating his ways, trying
to easy way through the cage. How are we going
to do with this? And then we got told by
the OC that we're not allowed to. You know, I
got no interest in you. And as we evolved, the
dogs became as a bought criteria if you don't have

(59:25):
a dog in the fee. As we knew what we
were doing, and then the dogs and us evolved to
the point where Legacy Camp said, yeah, that that dog's
allowed to come on Legacy Camp, so he'd be playing
with children, right turn around, yeah, turn around in a
testament to the quality of the dogs, the stability of them,

(59:46):
and so once again training and socialization so they're not
just pulled out of the cage to go and do
a job. So didn't it I'm out of the cage.
I got to buy it something. I was socialized for
the troops, and when we're chilling, they were with us
the whole time, and so there's part of the pack.
And you know, when we're putting our body armor on
and their little harnesses on there like the rest of us,

(01:00:08):
it's game on, and we're going to and then take
that harness off and take our body armor off, and
we're just we're just a fellow and they're just another
a fun, fun dog to be around and quite stable.
And yeah, as I said, we go to the kids
legacy camps and you see some of the parents and

(01:00:29):
my dog's got kids lying all over him. You just
roll around getting fed bottom, training the kids to sneak
food off to me and parents. Ah, this dog, we
know what that one does. He was really good with kids. Yeah, yeah,
it is. So I think we don't understand or we

(01:00:50):
don't give them credit for just what they are capable of.
And so even this one here, I'm just learning so
much more, just little things that he picks up on,
so you.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Can see why they value added to a team.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
And then and then you know, if somebody got knocked,
I'd be like, we don't usually get everybody impacted with
his harnesses on. You don't pack the dog it's business.
Then you know we'll be downranged somebody get killed and
you can pat the dog. So it made everybody feel
a bit better. So that there was that and even
to the extent when Sean got killed, some of the

(01:01:26):
other guys and other cars, I hope that's not the
car with a dog in it. That was the first fun.
So yeah, they just have that effect and that's that bond,
that unconditional service. We're responsible for him, and yeah, who
doesn't love a dog.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
Losing colleagues over there and your mates, how did that
impact on you personally? But there's a group to if
you lose one of your own.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
Yeah, I think more summed it up. It's just it's
a really hard date, tough day at the office, and
and yeah, when you're still out there on the ground
and you've just lost them and the body's been backlogged
because of act, you crack on because you've still got
a job to do. And then yeah, you come back

(01:02:13):
and it does impact your you know, once again, it's
that autism innus comes out. It Also, you don't want
to let your team mates down that are still alive,
and so you suck it up and get back out
after And I guess it's a risk that we accept
it sounds like a bit of a throw away line.
You Okay, that's that's pretty shit. Now we're confronted with

(01:02:35):
the realities of it, but you've still got a job
to do. Your mortality is really rammed home to your
own so but you've still got got to get out
there after it. And as once again, it's it's not
about me, it's about those guys that left a variety
and so you don't want to let them down, so
you step up. That's why people talk about warrior culture

(01:02:55):
is toxic and everything like that, but it's it's essentially
it's shame based. You don't want let the team down.
I don't want the mates down. I got to get
out there, and that's really what drove me to create
the dog capability. You never worked with children or animals
in specs. I'm working with both.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
It's it's interesting, like you say, shame based, and you
wouldn't think that would be part of it, But I understand,
like in tactical policing, when I was doing jobs in
tactical policing, I wasn't going in scared about being injured.
You're going in worried that you might do the wrong thing. Yeah,
that was a greater fear than Okay, well if you

(01:03:33):
got injured and then went shit, that's acceptable, But what
wouldn't have been acceptable if you went in there and
stuffed up or let your mate down. It's a funny
thing that drives people.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
Isn't it. I know? And I think if we had
a little bit more of that warrior culture in society,
probably a little bit of a better place. And actually
I believe that it would make coming home a lot
easier because we know what we talk about when we
say somebody has got no shame, and if the society
doesn't have any shame and you come back, then it's

(01:04:04):
really hard to contemplate. Okay, I went and did this
for for that, you know, and so you know, people
have a bit of gratitude and responsibility. Then then that
is essentially you know you're talking about you young fellows,
that responsibility that was he's taken on to from from

(01:04:25):
his military service and then he's doing, well, well, you're
proud to go and downrange for people like that and
were responsible, and so I for everyone takes a bit
more responsibility. Yeah, I'm happy to have gone and done
that for them.

Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
Yeah, no, I understand what.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
You're saying, there'll be no problems, but.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
Where you're coming from, there was another and it came
up with the war crime allegations and played out in
the media and that they're talking about, and there was
films of you guys debriefing or de stressing at the
Fat Lady's arms, and that issue was addressed in the documentary,
and I think it put it in perspective. And you

(01:05:05):
had former prime ministers saying that they went there, you
had us pilots saying they went there and they respected
things that were going on in that place, and it
was just an area for you guys to decompress. I
thought it told it well. I when it first came
out and there was shock, horror. Look, everyone's misbehaving or drinking.

(01:05:29):
You've got to see how police unmined after a stressful job,
and if the cameras were on us, taken out of context,
looked terrible and shameful. But I think it was explained
very well. And for the life of me, I can't
see how people can judge people destressing When you're gone
out there serving the country following orders you got. You

(01:05:50):
can't say no, I'm not going out tonight. Or whatever.
You've got a job to do, and that seemed to
me to be a way to decompress and find light
or relief, take the pressure off. What am I reading
it right?

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
Yeah? Absolutely, I didn't see. It was a little in
a sanctum that we had that safe space where you
could just unwind and whatever went on outside the why
you could have a chat about it and find a
light of sight in it and over a few beers
and just decompress and then crack on. I mean, I'll

(01:06:27):
say this in the film. Everybody that I this on
a Friday Saturday night every week and they've just got
office jobs or talking about the trials and tribulations that
went on at work. And so it's culturally, it's a thing,
and it's a thing everybody does. And so we just
happened to do it downrange and it was in that
small safe space, and we make sure that there was

(01:06:50):
still people sober and make sure that we were still
good to go for jobs potentially the next day, and
so it was done as responsibly as we could. Yeah
as well, So it was very important and that's a
lot of the feedback from the prime ministers and anybody

(01:07:11):
that went there this is awesome. So the pilots and
everybody that came in from the outside, well, we got
an invite to that in a sanctum.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
And they saw it as a privilege. And it's just
something I wanted to raise because I just thought so
unfair to expect you guys doing what you do and
then what you just robots, go back clean your weapons
and then just sit waiting to be deployed again. You've
got to be able and to be able to talk
to people that understand what you just experienced makes sense

(01:07:44):
of it. I think that helps. I know it helped
in policing. Like we'd see some shit and we'd go
out and we'd get on the drink and you know,
we got a bit tardy. But yeah, it helped you.
That's how I found that. It was a way of
caping with the stress. And we talk about black humor
and we say things that, ye are inappropriate, but in
context and how it was said and what was done

(01:08:06):
is appropriate in the context. Yeah, well, the.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
Black humor, and I think what people call inappropriate or triggering,
if you can go there without humor, you're pretty much
not that. If you do a racist joke or a
sexious joke. You can joke about things. I'm pretty confident
that you're not that. It's the ones that get offended
by that and go, that's that's what you probably are.
Because people speak out loudest against that what they fear

(01:08:32):
they are most run that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
I like, that's that's a good way coming back in.

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
And every time I get triggered by what the hell
is the city, that weak person or whatever, that's what
I'm scared of that I am too. So that's what
also drove us to do amazing things. It's that that
shame or I don't want to be that and so
and then I see somebody that I really don't want
to be or I'm afraid that I maybe I am,

(01:08:57):
and speak out against it. So that's when people you
can't talk about this, you can't say that. I think
that's probably what you are. If I can make a
joke about whatever, then it's a joke and we can
playlight about it. It's a funny one.

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
Well, you've touched on a couple of things about society
be better off if we're this and that. It seems
to me like the pendulum has swung so far it
just needs a reset. To accountability and all sorts of
things and responsibility and referencing him back to a young
Feller going into the army and having values, instilled sense

(01:09:38):
of responsibility and purpose. I think that's crying out for it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Well, well, I think what we're seeing is it's a
lot of the end of empire's criteria symptoms. So you know,
the neglected military, the descent into hedonism and plenty and entitlement,
and so we've got people that aren't responsible for their
lives and don't care about anybody else, and they just take, take, take,

(01:10:03):
and that headingism. And we've seen it with the Babylonians,
the Romans.

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):
The Greeks dictating where we're at this present time.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
And neglect of the military is a big one because
then the other armies will just come in over the top.
And so we see similarities with the Romans, the Barbarians.
I don't worry about them. We'll just keep going on
with our orgies and whatever done and the next thing
you know, the Rome's been sacked. So you know, it's
like when you're grow on a This is on a

(01:10:35):
macro level, but on a micro level, you tell your kids,
if you don't look after your toys, you won't have them.
And so if you don't look after the country and
protect and do and step up and take responsibility, then
you'll lose it. And I think what we've got now
is people will just vote for whoever handsome free money

(01:10:56):
and it's a short term and nobody wants to tighten
their belts to look after the future. I'm not saying nobody,
there's quite a lot that do.

Speaker 1 (01:11:03):
It's at strange times. I looked at in recent times
protests in the streets of Sydney and there were so
many protests groups going around that it was just this
person's protesting about that, that person's protesting about that, and
it was just it seem chaotic and shambalie. That's a
strange times chaos. We might take a break now when

(01:11:24):
we get back and thank you for your insight into
your service saver in Afghanistan and just a little bit
about yourself and the tips have given me for making
Spike a bigger and better dog come and possible future employment.
We want to talk about your post army career. Post
military career, and you've said that you've suffered from PTSD,

(01:11:47):
the type of treatment that you're looking for getting your
insight into that. Will also talk about the Royal Commission
into Veteran Suicide and that is only recently played out
and some of the recommendations. And I'm curious about all
the other stuff that you've done too, like wildlife working
over in Africa and poaching anti poaching.

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
And it's been quite a rewarding journey that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:15):
Well, that that that would be fascinating, So a lot,
a lot to talk about. If we take a break,
might even take these two idiots for a walk and
we'll be back soon. Cheers.